We're witnessing the greatest scoring season in NBA history

[Joyner82reload]

32.2 ppg on 10.6 TS% above league average in a slow paced era. :bowdown:

[AnaheimLakers24]

kobe is better

[Trollsmasher]

no

[wildchild]

kobe is better

at chucking shots and scoring inefficiently.

[Jlamb47]

One of the greatest scoring seasons ever....yes.
KD is a str8 beast this year

[Joyner82reload]

kobe is better

Yes 3.2 more ppg on league average TS% is clearly better :roll:

Kobe needed 27.2 FGA and 10.2 FTA to average 35.4 ppg
Durant has needed 20.5 FGA and 10.0 FTA to average 32.2 ppg

Imagine giving Durant another 6.7 FGA and .2 FTA. He would literally be at 40 ppg

[IncarceratedBob]

Yeah Kobe's 35/5/5 season was easily better

[wildchild]

KD might be the real next MJ people are waiting for in the last 10 - 15 years.

[Joyner82reload]

I never realized just how much better Durant has been this year than 2006 Kobe at scoring...jesus christ, the numbers are just absurd.

Kobe averaged 3.2 more ppg on 6.7 more FGA and .2 more FTA. And Durant is averaging 2.5 more rpg and 1.2 more apg :bowdown:

[tmacattack33]

I'm pretty sure one (or two or three or four) of MJ's seasons in the late 80's/early 90's would be better. Specifically when he averaged 35+ on 50% FG +.

[KyrieTheFuture]

MJ and Wilt laugh at you. And Bird too.

[DaSeba5]

:roll:

[Trollsmasher]

It's nice for him to chase RS records, but it can get ugly really qucikly when his glaringly lacking scoring skillset and beta mentality get exposed in the playoffs.

He should be focusing more on how to not choke in PO instead of playing 40 mpg in the 2nd half of the season and running himself to the ground just to chase 32 ppg

[Joyner82reload]

................Pts/75 RelTS%
1987 Jordan 34.8 +2.4
2006 Kobe.. 34.2 +2.3
1988 Jordan 32.7 +6.6
1993 Jordan 32.2 +2.8
1990 Jordan 32.1 +6.9
2014 Durant 32.1 +10.6
1991 Jordan 32.0 +7.1

Here are your pace adjusted, greatest scoring seasons during the 3 point era. Durant's efficiency is otherworldly

[dannywpt]

It's nice for him to chase RS records, but it can get ugly really qucikly when his glaringly lacking scoring skillset and beta mentality get exposed in the playoffs.

He should be focusing more on how to not choke in PO instead of playing 40 mpg in the 2nd half of the season and running himself to the ground just to chase 32 ppg

Lack of scoring skillset? Beta mentality? Chocking?

I think you got the names mixed up when watching the boxscores, man.

[IncarceratedBob]

................Pts/75 RelTS%
1987 Jordan 34.8 +2.4
2006 Kobe.. 34.2 +2.3
1988 Jordan 32.7 +6.6
1993 Jordan 32.2 +2.8
1990 Jordan 32.1 +6.9
2014 Durant 32.1 +10.6
1991 Jordan 32.0 +7.1

Here are your pace adjusted, greatest scoring seasons during the 3 point era. Durant's efficiency is otherworldly
You just shut down your own thread. This is the 6th greatest scoring season in the 3pt era, that's worse than what KD is accustomed too (2nd) but it ain't bad kid. Maybe next year

[russwest0]

Lol.


James harden has a higher TS% than prime Jordan did. Stop this shit, it's a terrible stat when used as the all be all.


WS: Jordan
PER: Jordan
PPG: Jordan
FG%: Jordan

TS%: Durant......:lol


Stop embarrassing yourself.

Just curious, not trying to make a point or anything, but who has the eFG% advantage?

Also, WS and PER are overall stats, not scoring specific stats.

[Brizzly]

at chucking shots and scoring ineffectively.

Scoring "ineffectively" is arbitrary but considering he has been the leading scorer or second leading scorer on 7 finals team I would say he is scoring effectively.

[Trollsmasher]

Lack of scoring skillset? Beta mentality? Chocking?

I think you got the names mixed up when watching the boxscores, man.
39% FG in the elimination games bud

40% clutch FT shooting in the playoffs bud

20% from the field in the clutch in playoffs bud

defering to Westbrook in the Finals bud

I quite surely did not get that mixed up

When defenses get tight and bullshit fouls are not called, KD gets lost like a lamb

[Joyner82reload]

Lol.


James harden has a higher TS% than prime Jordan did. Stop this shit, it's a terrible stat when used as the all be all.


WS: Jordan
PER: Jordan
PPG: Jordan
FG%: Jordan

TS%: Durant......:lol


Stop embarrassing yourself.

FG%...LOL what an imbecile

You ignore TS% but us PER and WS...you serious bro?

[Uncle Drew]

32.2 ppg on 10.6 TS% above league average in a slow paced era. :bowdown:
:sleeping

[wildchild]

It's nice for him to chase RS records, but it can get ugly really qucikly when his glaringly lacking scoring skillset and beta mentality get exposed in the playoffs.

He should be focusing more on how to not choke in PO instead of playing 40 mpg in the 2nd half of the season and running himself to the ground just to chase 32 ppg

You're posting in a wrong thread. No one is talking about Lebron here.

[Joyner82reload]

Just curious, not trying to make a point or anything, but who has the eFG% advantage?

Also, WS and PER are overall stats, not scoring specific stats.

Durant, of course

Durant's at 57.1 eFG%, 55.2 2PT FG%, 41.2 3P%
Jordan's best eFG% was 55.0%, 54.6 2PT FG%, 37.6 3P%

[Milbuck]

2000 Shaq >

Get into the numbers as deep as you want to, but I'm taking the guy who was regularly TRIPLE teamed, who put up 30ppg on 57% shooting. With 31ppg on 57% shooting in the playoffs, and 38 ppg on 61% shooting in the finals.

[wildchild]

Scoring "ineffectively" is arbitrary but considering he has been the leading scorer or second leading scorer on 7 finals team I would say he is scoring effectively.

My bad. It should be scoring inefficiently. Didn't review it before posting. Will change.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

39% FG in the elimination games bud

40% clutch FT shooting in the playoffs bud

20% from the field in the clutch in playoffs bud

defering to Westbrook in the Finals bud

I quite surely did not get that mixed up

When defenses get tight and bullshit fouls are not called, KD gets lost like a lamb

Is that just for last season's playoffs or his whole career?

[Joyner82reload]

Because TS% Iis a shit stat and its the perfect deceiving stat for an agenda. None of the greatest scorers ever have high TS% in the all-time list.


PER, WS now that's different. Those stats translate perfectly.

Um...that's because it's logical someone scoring 10 ppg on spot up 3's will likely have a higher TS% than someone scoring 20 in ISO sets. Does that mean the guy shooting 3's is more valuable? Hell no, he just gets easier looks. However 2 players scoring on the same volume? Of course the guy with the TS% that's higher is the better scorer. The team with the higher TS% will win 99.9% of basketball games if offensive rebounding and turnovers cancel out.

[Trollsmasher]

Is that just for last season's playoffs or his whole career?
2nd and 3rd are last season. Still a choke of epic proportions

It's probably almost as bad for his career anyway. I'll look into it.

[Rocketswin2013]

Harden's Efg% in 2012 of 58% > Durant and Jordan's


:lol

Relative stats.

[Joyner82reload]

And field goal percentage is a bad representation for efficiency NOW?


ALL BECAUSE DURANT DOESN'T LEAD IT?

40 FG%*3=1.2 points
50 FG%*2=1.0 points

FG% says shooting a 2 @ 50%>shooting a 3 @ 40%. You going to argue shooting the 2 is the better shot?

[Da Doc04]

KD is a machine

[Joyner82reload]

Harden's Efg% in 2012 of 58% > Durant and Jordan's


:lol

Relative stats.

Yes, James Harden's eFG% as a 6th man and a third option on his team is clearly comparable to Jordan and Durant, 2 of the highest volume scorers in NBA history.

[chazzy]

glaringly lacking scoring skillset
What is wrong with you

[Joyner82reload]

Michael Jordan's peak EFG= 55%


Harden's this year = 54%


You telling me they're the same tier of scorer?

:biggums:

You telling me that James Harden is averaging 31-35 ppg like peak Jordan?

[Joyner82reload]

Jordan shot 53-54%. And KD. is right at 40% from 3. Difference.

:lol
Fact. Durant shoots higher on 2 PT FG's than Jordan
Fact. Durant shoots higher on 3 PT FG's than Jordan

and 41% from 3 is equal to 61.5% from 2, idiot

[Trollsmasher]

I would like OP to explain why KD can't score in the clutch and what is behind this career lasting issue...

[chazzy]

He's also closing the gap on Lebron's TS% this year - wasn't Lebron at 67% earlier?

[russwest0]

He's also closing the gap on Lebron's TS% this year - wasn't Lebron at 67% earlier?

Doesn't matter, LeBron could get a 90% TS if he wanted to. He's trying to get another ring instead.

[Trollsmasher]

He's also closing the gap on Lebron's TS% this year - wasn't Lebron at 67% earlier?
coasting

[riseagainst]

not gonna lie. Durant's scoring efficiency in every aspect of scoring is incredible. I just checked his 2P and 3P percentages vs MJ's 32-8-8 season as well as his 35ppg season, which were probably his two best scoring seasons in terms of both scoring and efficiency. Durant has him beat on both, and freethrow % as well.

They both averaged the same freethrow attempts a game. But look at Durant's 3point% and attempts and his shot attempts a game vs his scoring. He took almost 2 shots less than 32-8-8 to average only .3 points less.

[Milbuck]

This discussion is absolutely meaningless when you consider how much tougher perimeter players had it in MJ's era. Does anyone seriously think Durant would be scoring on this exact same efficiency in MJ's time? Or that prime MJ in this era wouldn't be embarrassing teams even worse than he did back in his day?

Also, still waiting to hear on why KD > 2000 Shaq in scoring. 30ppg on 57% shooting in the regular season and 38 ppg on 61% shooting in the finals against constant triple teams. There is nothing KD has done as scary and impressive as that this season as a scorer.

[Trollsmasher]

I would like OP to explain why KD can't score in the clutch and what is behind this career lasting issue...
bump

[red1]

Sure. Top three all-time scoring season. Im sure late 80s mj has a few seasons that compare as well as 06 kobe

[riseagainst]

This discussion is absolutely meaningless when you consider how much tougher perimeter players had it in MJ's era. Does anyone seriously think Durant would be scoring on this exact same efficiency in MJ's time? Or that prime MJ in this era wouldn't be embarrassing teams even worse than he did back in his day?

Also, still waiting to hear on why KD > 2000 Shaq in scoring. 30ppg on 57% shooting in the regular season and 38 ppg on 61% shooting in the finals against constant triple teams. There is nothing KD has done as scary and impressive as that this season as a scorer.

who is going to consistently shut down Durant. 6'10" with a 7'1 wingspan. Can shoot from anywhere. Can drive to the basket with excellent handles.....

[Joyner82reload]

This discussion is absolutely meaningless when you consider how much tougher perimeter players had it in MJ's era. Does anyone seriously think Durant would be scoring on this exact same efficiency in MJ's time? Or that prime MJ in this era wouldn't be embarrassing teams even worse than he did back in his day?

Also, still waiting to hear on why KD > 2000 Shaq in scoring. 30ppg on 57% shooting in the regular season and 38 ppg on 61% shooting in the finals against constant triple teams. There is nothing KD has done as scary and impressive as that this season as a scorer.

Seeing as the league average TS% hasn't changed since then, no

Also Durant's eFG%=Shaq's and he's a FAR better FT shooter. Are you this dense?

[Solefade]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/43669927.jpg

[russwest0]

who is going to consistently shut down Durant. 6'10" with a 7'1 wingspan. Can shoot from anywhere. Can drive to the basket with excellent handles.....


7'5 wingspan to be exact. Part of the reason he has those insane handles. Allows him to keep his dribble lower.

[Milbuck]

Seeing as the league average TS% hasn't changed since then, no

Also Durant's eFG%=Shaq's and he's a FAR better FT shooter. Are you this dense?
Defenses collapsed trying to guard Shaq. He was triple teamed regularly, and his scoring opened up the game for all 4 guys he was on court with. You are the prime example of a context-ignorant stat nerd.

[tontoz]

It's nice for him to chase RS records, but it can get ugly really qucikly when his glaringly lacking scoring skillset and beta mentality get exposed in the playoffs.




This is nonsense. His skillset and mentality aren't his problems in the playoffs. His lack of athleticism is his problem. He can't effectively deal with the extra physicality of the playoffs.

But the OP does have a point that this is a historic season for Durant.

[Kblaze8855]

I suspect that looking back in 20 or so years that it will not be remembered as such. 32ppg isnt gonna do it when guys have done 35-50. Hell Kareem put up 35 a game on 57% shooting and nobody even knows about it. Same for Dantleys 31 on 56. Gervin 33 on I wanna say 54. Karl Malone 31 on 56 or 57. This year is gonna blend in with 20 other years and not really stand out.

The most mentioned will always be Wilts 50...after that something Jordan related with the big point totals.

Doesnt need to be said that 32 on 51/41 is absurd....but not crazy enough to stand out placed next to all the other top ones.

I still dont thinkive even heard the term TS% used vocally. If ever people care it wont be all that soon.

First thing people look at was, is, and will probably always be the points scored. Then what they shot(not that most people even care about that).

Durant probably could put up 35-38 a game put on a team that asked it of him. As things are now? dont see it going down as the best ever. People are barely aware of it. In 06 Kobe going off was a much bigger deal society wise.

Toss in a few 60 point games, maybe 78 somewhere in there, and a few news grabbing streaks it would be a bigger deal.

Not much about his season grabs you to make it stand out in the hearts and minds. Which like it or not...is a lot of it when the issue is what ___ is gonna go down as.

[r0drig0lac]

This discussion is absolutely meaningless when you consider how much tougher perimeter players had it in MJ's era. Does anyone seriously think Durant would be scoring on this exact same efficiency in MJ's time? Or that prime MJ in this era wouldn't be embarrassing teams even worse than he did back in his day?

Also, still waiting to hear on why KD > 2000 Shaq in scoring. 30ppg on 57% shooting in the regular season and 38 ppg on 61% shooting in the finals against constant triple teams. There is nothing KD has done as scary and impressive as that this season as a scorer.
this, people acting as if kd would repeat what has been doing playing at a time when basketball was harder and with more skilled players, not counting the rules

[game3524]

I suspect that looking back in 20 or so years that it will not be remembered as such. 32ppg isnt gonna do it when guys have done 35-50. Hell Kareem put up 35 a game on 57% shooting and nobody even knows about it. Same for Dantleys 31 on 56. Gervin 33 on I wanna say 54. Karl Malone 31 on 56 or 57. This year is gonna blend in with 20 other years and not really stand out.

The most mentioned will always be Wilts 50...after that something Jordan related with the big point totals.

Doesnt need to be said that 32 on 51/41 is absurd....but not crazy enough to stand out placed next to all the other top ones.

I still dont thinkive even heard the term TS% used vocally. If ever people care it wont be all that soon.

First thing people look at was, is, and will probably always be the points scored. Then what they shot(not that most people even care about that).

Durant probably could put up 35-38 a game put on a team that asked it of him. As things are now? dont see it going down as the best ever. People are barely aware of it. In 06 Kobe going off was a much bigger deal society wise.

Toss in a few 60 point games, maybe 78 somewhere in there, and a few news grabbing streaks it would be a bigger deal.

Not much about his season grabs you to make it stand out in the hearts and minds. Which like it or not...is a lot of it when the issue is what ___ is gonna go down as.

This.

He has been insanely efficient, but he doesn't have the scoring heights like MJ and Kobe did in their seasons(the excessive 50 and 60 point games)

[Joyner82reload]

I suspect that looking back in 20 or so years that it will not be remembered as such. 32ppg isnt gonna do it when guys have done 35-50. Hell Kareem put up 35 a game on 57% shooting and nobody even knows about it. Same for Dantleys 31 on 56. Gervin 33 on I wanna say 54. Karl Malone 31 on 56 or 57. This year is gonna blend in with 20 other years and not really stand out.

The most mentioned will always be Wilts 50...after that something Jordan related with the big point totals.

Doesnt need to be said that 32 on 51/41 is absurd....but not crazy enough to stand out placed next to all the other top ones.

I still dont thinkive even heard the term TS% used vocally. If ever people care it wont be all that soon.

First thing people look at was, is, and will probably always be the points scored. Then what they shot(not that most people even care about that).

Durant probably could put up 35-38 a game put on a team that asked it of him. As things are now? dont see it going down as the best ever. People are barely aware of it. In 06 Kobe going off was a much bigger deal society wise.

Toss in a few 60 point games, maybe 78 somewhere in there, and a few news grabbing streaks it would be a bigger deal.

Not much about his season grabs you to make it stand out in the hearts and minds. Which like it or not...is a lot of it when the issue is what ___ is gonna go down as.

Only casual fans care about scoring outbursts in terms of actual impact, consistency is what wins basketball games.

And ignoring TS% is effectively like people ignoring updated medical reports in favor of those used in the past. Let's ignore something far more advanced and useful and instead use something outdated from the past because it's more familiar.

Let's put it this way. Durant scoring 32.2 ppg on 20.5 FGA and 10.0 FTA would allow another player to score 4.9 ppg on 7.3 FGA and 1.9 FTA to equal the output of Jordan in his 37 ppg season. So that's 4.9 ppg on 30.4 TS% or in your case 24.4 FG% and 70 FT%

[tpols]

Only casual fans care about scoring outbursts in terms of actual impact, consistency is what wins basketball games.

And ignoring TS% is effectively like people ignoring updated medical reports in favor of those used in the past. Let's ignore something far more advanced and useful and instead use something outdated from the past because it's more familiar.

Let's put it this way. Durant scoring 32.2 ppg on 20.5 FG% and 10.0 FTA would allow another player to score 4.9 ppg on 7.3 FGA and 1.9 FTA to equal the output of Jordan in his 37 ppg season. So that's 4.9 ppg on 30.4 TS% or in your case 24.4 FG% and 70 FT%

Durant consistently gives great lines.. but scoring feats do matter. It's what really makes it memorable. You can wank to durant scoring 33 points on 16 FTs and 75TS.. but the 50 60 70 point explosions from the field will always stick in people's minds better

[SexSymbol]

It's probably in the top 25. But that's that, no argument for being in the top 15 at all

[Joyner82reload]

Durant consistently gives great lines.. but scoring feats do matter. It's what really makes it memorable. You can wank to durant scoring 33 points on 16 FTs and 75TS.. but the 50 60 70 point explosions from the field will always stick in people's minds better

But ultimately scoring 30 points for 5 straight games on 65 TS% is better for a team than a 60 point outburst followed by 4 23 point games on 60 TS%.

[Kblaze8855]

Ignoring TS% isnt at all like using outdated medical reports. We learn new things about the human body. have new ways to test...new machinery.

The "new" and "advanced" numbers are nothing of the sort.

Its numbers between 30 and 100 years old being combined to get a new number. It isnt new information.

The shot charts now tracked...that is new information. It tells you what we used to have no way of knowing without seeing all the games. It tells you where exactly shots are made from. Not just 2 or 3...but where.

TS% is numbers we already had....combined. Like PER and all the rest.

Not new numbers.

Old numbers being manipulated.

[Smoke117]

Yes 3.2 more ppg on league average TS% is clearly better :roll:

Kobe needed 27.2 FGA and 10.2 FTA to average 35.4 ppg
Durant has needed 20.5 FGA and 10.0 FTA to average 32.2 ppg

Imagine giving Durant another 6.7 FGA and .2 FTA. He would literally be at 40 ppg

Not sure why that is supposed to better...Durant is doing what he does in an era where you can't even play tough defense on the perimeter. (same as Kobe in 06) Frankly, neither season impresses me.

[Joyner82reload]

Ignoring TS% isnt at all like using outdated medical reports. We learn new things about the human body. have new ways to test...new machinery.

The "new" and "advanced" numbers are nothing of the sort.

Its numbers between 30 and 100 years old being combined to get a new number. It isnt new information.

The shot charts new tracked...that is new information. It tells you what we used to have no way of knowing without seeing all the games. It tells you where exactly shots are made from. Not just 2 or 3...but where.

TS% is numbers we already had....combined. Like PER and all the rest.

Not new numbers.

Old numbers being manipulated.

TS% is standardizing a shots value/weight. That is essential in analyzing scoring ability as not every shot is equal to another, this much is obvious. TS% isn't flawless, as it normalizes FT's based on aggregation, but it is as close to true scoring efficiency as you can possibly get aside from literally breaking down every shot from every player in a box score(which is near impossible) given the shear volume of shots taken throughout the seasons.

[Joyner82reload]

Not sure why that is supposed to better...Durant is doing what he does in an era where you can't even play tough defense on the perimeter. (same as Kobe in 06) Frankly, neither season impresses me.

Yet the average player efficiency is almost identical to that of the toughest era's in NBA history. I guess the average nba player was just better back then? just lol

[tontoz]

TS% is standardizing a shots value/weight. That is essential in analyzing scoring ability as not every shot is equal to another, this much is obvious. TS% isn't flawless, as it normalizes FT's based on aggregation, but it is as close to true scoring efficiency as you can possibly get aside from literally breaking down every shot from every player in a box score(which is near impossible) given the shear volume of shots taken throughout the seasons.



You are wasting your time. He will never get it.

If Player A shoots 5 of 10 from 2 and player B shoots 4 of 10 from 3 KBlaze thinks that Player A shot better. I am not joking.

[Kblaze8855]

Kobe in 06 would impress me more if a gang of people didnt suddenly go off. AI put up 33 a game on 45% shooting in 06. Gilbert Arenas had 3 months of over 32ppg. Michael Redd put up 25 and 27 a game for a couple years. Lebron put up 32-33 a game for 4 months finished at 31 and change.

Thats one of thoses years where it was just too widespread to pretend nothing was going on.

[SexSymbol]

Kobe in 06 would impress me more if a gang of people didnt suddenly go off. AI put up 33 a game on 45% shooting in 06. Gilbert Arenas had 3 months of over 32ppg. Michael Redd put up 25 and 27 a game for a couple years. Lebron put up 32-33 a game for 4 months finished at 31 and change.

Thats one of thoses years where it was just too widespread to pretend nothing was going on.
He was comfortably the most outstanding player in a bunch of outstanding players. How is that not more impressive?

[Kblaze8855]

You are wasting your time. He will never get it.

If Player A shoots 5 of 10 from 2 and player B shoots 4 of 10 from 3 KBlaze thinks that Player A shot better. I am not joking.

Nor are you doing basic math.

Im not going to pretend I dont know what you mean by saying 4 threes is more than 5 2s....go on and do me the courtesy of not pretending you dont know that 50 is a bigger number than 40 and not pretending you dont understand what is meant by someone saying a player who shot 48% shot better than someone who shot 45..

Its clearly an issue of semantics.

You want to have that argument have it with someone else.

[inclinerator]

yes he is, he should be able to dominate the playoffs and win the championship this year no?

[Joyner82reload]

Nor are you doing basic math.

Im not going to pretend I dont know what you mean by saying 4 threes is more than 5 2s....go on and do me the courtesy of not pretending you dont know that 50 is a bigger number than 40 and not pretending you dont understand what is meant by someone saying a player who shot 48% shot better than someone who shot 45..

Its clearly an issue of semantics.

You want to have that argument have it with someone else.

They made more of their FGA, but not every shot is equal. You're blatantly ignoring 3 pointers and FT's by judging efficiency based on sheer FG%. FG% is absolutely fine for analyzing scoring efficiency before the 3 point line was introduced, discounting FT's which are 20% of scoring in the NBA, but that no longer works since its inclusion into the NBA.

You do realize that missing 2 FT's is essentially like missing a FGA, right? Actually it's worse aside from getting the other team in foul trouble/working towards the bonus as the odds of getting an offensive rebound on a missed FT is far less frequent than that of a standard FGA

[tpols]

But ultimately scoring 30 points for 5 straight games on 65 TS% is better for a team than a 60 point outburst followed by 4 23 point games on 60 TS%.

It depends on how good the teammates are.. and the timing of the games.. sometimes 25 will be enough.. others anything less than 40 would result in a loss because a takeover was necessary. And it's not like a 50 or game would be followed up with a bunch of shitty ones. Kobe wilt mj have 40 point months and streaks of 40 and 50 point games.. they go through hot phases where their scoring is at unseen levels. Durant never reached that peak.. though he's extremely close

[Kblaze8855]

It is ignoring nothing at all. Its just looking at them apart...

You have never seen me say Ray Allen cant shoot because he shoots in the low to mid 40s...for obvious reasons.

Its amazing to me I get caught up in this kinda of "You overvalue FG%!" thing when just as often someone tells me I need to care more about it when the issue is someone who shot poorly but played well(Rose, Iverson, Hardaway and a few others).

I dont care what anyone shoots. I care how effective you are. What you shoot is a function of many things.

I watched Karl Malone shoot 55% and be unable to get his team a key shot at the rate a lot of guys could while shooting 45.

The shit just doesnt matter that much to me. Never has.

[tontoz]

Nor are you doing basic math.

Im not going to pretend I dont know what you mean by saying 4 threes is more than 5 2s....go on and do me the courtesy of not pretending you dont know that 50 is a bigger number than 40 and not pretending you dont understand what is meant by someone saying a player who shot 48% shot better than someone who shot 45..

Its clearly an issue of semantics.

You want to have that argument have it with someone else.



No it isnt semantics. It is basic math.

If the guy shooting 45% shot 6 three pointers per game and the guy shooting 48% didn't shoot any then the guy shooting 45% shot better, by far, because he scored more points per shot attempt.

You proved that you don't understand this when you said that Rose shot better in his second season than Miller did in several seasons. That is flat wrong.

[Joyner82reload]

It is ignoring nothing at all. Its just looking at them apart...

You have never seen me say Ray Allen cant shoot because he shoots in the low to mid 40s...for obvious reasons.

Its amazing to me I get caught up in this kinda of "You overvalue FG%!" thing when just as often someone tells me I need to care more about it when the issue is someone who shot poorly but played well(Rose, Iverson, Hardaway and a few others).

I dont care what anyone shoots. I care how effective you are. What you shoot is a function of many things.

I watched Karl Malone shoot 55% and be unable to get his team a key shot at the rate a lot of guys could while shooting 45.

The shit just doesnt matter that much to me. Never has.

Look at Iverson's TS%. He was terribly inefficient, as referenced by both FG% and TS%, due to being a poor 3 point shooter as well. Rose was never considered inefficient, outside of his rookie year and the playoffs. He was average in terms of efficiency, as referenced by TS%. At his volume however, average efficiency isn't a bad thing..it just means he wasn't the scorer than LeBron and more so Durant are.

Tim Hardaway, until the end of his career 99-on, was just like Rose. Average efficiency, but it wasn't a detriment to his team. And he was an elite playmaker, which his ability to score further maximized.

And Malone was never an elite ISO player, he mainly lived off of pick n pops and Stockton setting him up in spots for his elite athleticism to overpower other PF's. End of game situations are almost ALWAYS about isolation, which Malone was never elite at

[StrongLurk]

I don't think Durant is having the best scoring season ever simply because I think it's too hard to just choose one. However, Durant is definitely having one of the best scoring seasons ever for a perimeter player.

[tontoz]

I don't think Durant is having the best scoring season ever simply because I think it's too hard to just choose one. However, Durant is definitely having one of the best scoring seasons ever for a perimeter player.


I agree. OP got carried away.

For the record Jordan never shot as well as Durant is this year. The season he scored 37 he shot significantly worse than Durant is currently. Hard to come up with a comparable performance from a wing player. Lebron shot better the last two seasons but obviously scored far fewer points.

[Kblaze8855]

No it isnt semantics. It is basic math.

If the guy shooting 45% shot 6 three pointers per game and the guy shooting 48% didn't shoot any then the guy shooting 45% shot better, by far, because he scored more points per shot attempt.

Not going to keep playing these word games. If I say" ___ shot better than ___in 1996" and he shot 49% to the other guys 43% I am right. The issue is why that is and then we could look into it. You told me that I lied when I said someone who shot 48% shot better than someone who shot 45. You want to play douchebag word games and pretend you dont know how to have a conversation im just not interested.

I know what you mean.....you know what I mean. Why do you want to keep talking about it?

[Rocketswin2013]

I agree. OP got carried away.

For the record Jordan never shot as well as Durant is this year. The season he scored 37 he shot significantly worse than Durant is currently. Hard to come up with a comparable performance from a wing player. Lebron shot better the last two seasons but obviously scored far fewer points.
35/6/5
53/13/84

31.7 PER

Just 3.1 TOV
/thread

[tontoz]

Not going to keep playing these word games. If I say" ___ shot better than ___in 1996" and he shot 49% to the other guys 43% I am right. The issue is why that is and then we could look into it. You told me that I lied when I said someone who shot 48% shot better than someone who shot 45. You want to play douchebag word games and pretend you dont know how to have a conversation im just not interested.

I know what you mean.....you know what I mean. Why do you want to keep talking about it?


When you say something like this:


Rose shot something like 48 and change his second year. Not checking to be exact. Better than Reggie in like 13-14 years or so. Just the way it is. Call it whatever you like


.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=9734486


That clearly shows you don't understand the math involved. Either that or you are lying to try to boltser your point. Take your pick.

Miller shot better in his worst season than Rose did in his best season. That is a mathematical fact.

[tontoz]

35/6/5
53/13/84

31.7 PER

Just 3.1 TOV
/thread


I assume you are talking about the 87-88 season. Jordan made only 7 three pointers that whole season. Do you really not see the problem here?

Durant shot better but Jordan scored more points so i guess that would basically be a wash scoring wise.

[Kblaze8855]

So he doesnt understand math either?

People who say a player shot what they shot do not understand math....

I think its best I disregard you from here on.

Edit:

You edited your last post but its still fairly obvious what the issue is.

You...just want to be difficult.

[Joyner82reload]

I agree. OP got carried away.

For the record Jordan never shot as well as Durant is this year. The season he scored 37 he shot significantly worse than Durant is currently. Hard to come up with a comparable performance from a wing player. Lebron shot better the last two seasons but obviously scored far fewer points.

2013 LeBron didn't shoot better than Durant has this year. And the margin between 14 Durant and 14 LeBron is minuscule, .05 TS% IIRC.

The only player with comparable volume and efficiency is Dantley in 1984, and he was a detriment to his teams offense as a black hole. Not to mention that was on a run-n-gun team in the heart of the no defense era. Hell his team was averaging 115 points per game and wasn't even top 5 in the league in scoring.

[Joyner82reload]

So he doesnt understand math either?

People who say a player shot what they shot do not understand math....

I think its best I disregard you from here on.

Edit:

You edited your last post but its still fairly obvious what the issue is.

You...just want to be difficult.

You're using FG% as a metric for measuring shooting efficiency. He is not, because the stat is extremely flawed.

FG% is no true measure of efficiency, it's a measure of how frequently your shot goes in the basket. Not how many points you contribute on those shot attempts, which is the definition of efficiency.

If you think shooting better is making more shots, then your assessment is fine. I think shooting better would be generating the most points given equal shot attempts.

[Rocketswin2013]

I see someone else doesn't understand grade school math.
??

I agree. OP got carried away.

For the record Jordan never shot as well as Durant is this year.
Michael Jordan shot 53% from the field in 88', Durant is shooting 51% this year.



The season he scored 37 he shot significantly worse than Durant is currently. Hard to come up with a comparable performance from a wing player. Lebron shot better the last two seasons but obviously scored far fewer points.
:lol
LeBron shot "significantly" better and scored less. Jordan, on the other hand shot "significantly" better and scored more than Durant,because he was the better scorer.


Ok?

/thread

[Joyner82reload]

??

Michael Jordan shot 53% from the field in 88', Durant is shooting 50% this year.



:lol
LeBron shot "significantly" better and scored less. Jordan, on the other hand shot "significantly" better and scored more than Durant,because he was the better scorer.


Ok?

/thread

Team A shoots 80 3 pointers, making 30 of them.
Team B shoots 80 2 pointers, making 44 of them.

Team A shot 37.5% from the field
Team B shot 55.0% from the field

Who won the game?

[tontoz]

So he doesnt understand math either?

People who say a player shot what they shot do not understand math....

I think its best I disregard you from here on.

Edit:

You edited your last post but its still fairly obvious what the issue is.

You...just want to be difficult.



You just can't accept that you were wrong to compare and average shooter like Rose with an elite shooter like Miller.

[DonDadda59]

................Pts/75 RelTS%
1987 Jordan 34.8 +2.4
2006 Kobe.. 34.2 +2.3
1988 Jordan 32.7 +6.6
1993 Jordan 32.2 +2.8
1990 Jordan 32.1 +6.9
2014 Durant 32.1 +10.6
1991 Jordan 32.0 +7.1

Here are your pace adjusted, greatest scoring seasons during the 3 point era. Durant's efficiency is otherworldly

'Pace adjusted'? What does that even mean? :coleman:

In '87, the Bulls played at a pace of 95.8 (last in the league). In '88 they played at a Pace of 95.5 (again, slowest in the league). The Thunder this year are at 95.6

So why would Jordan's 'pace adjusted' scoring fall by 3 or so points? :confusedshrug:

And you do realize that Durant is getting more FTA/gm than Jordan despite taking less shots and considerably more 3s/gm?

[Rocketswin2013]

Team A shoots 80 3 pointers, making 30 of them.
Team B shoots 80 2 pointers, making 44 of them.

Team A shot 37.5% from the field
Team B shot 55.0% from the field

Who won the game?
Whichever team had better volume on top of the better shooting from the field, and you left out the FT statistics, because you know, that is also apart of basketball.

[tontoz]

??

Michael Jordan shot 53% from the field in 88', Durant is shooting 51% this year.






:facepalm


Jordan made 7 three pointers in the 87-88 season. Durant has made 176 three pointers so far and the season isn't even over. Do you really not see the problem here?

[Joyner82reload]

Whichever team had better volume on top of the better shooting from the field, and you left out the FT statistics, because you know, that is also apart of basketball.

Oh you mean the FT statistics which are weighted into TS% yet are completely ignored in FG%?

As for volume, which season do you think was Jordan's best scoring the basketball? I'm going to DESTROY any argument you have for volume when you answer

[Kblaze8855]

You're using FG% as a metric for measuring shooting efficiency. He is not, because the stat is extremely flawed.

FG% is no true measure of efficiency, it's a measure of how frequently your shot goes in the basket. Not how many points you contribute on those shot attempts, which is the definition of efficiency.

If you think shooting better is making more shots, then your assessment is fine. I think shooting better would be generating the most points given equal shot attempts.

Shooting better is making the most of the shots you take. It has been for 100 years. People on the internet are not going to change that because of additional numbers nobody has ever spoken aloud. It doesnt make you a BETTER shooter. It means you shot better from the field which is all its ever meant. Center shoots 58% hes shooting better than a guard who shoots 45%. Is he likely a better shooter? No. But that wasnt the question. No need to act like after decades of using these terms you now dont understand them(which for the record im not saying you are doing...someone else is).


Now...you want to get into the skill side of things(where id much rather be)....

Id say the best scorer is the guy most capable of generating a shot he can make when I need it.

Which...could be anyone. Not a numbers issue. A conversation id much rather have.

[Joyner82reload]

Shooting better is making the most of the shots you take.

No it's not. It's making the most OUT OF the shots you take. Maximizing every shot attempt. Which would be the total yield from aggregate shot attempts. Maximizing efficiency/production is something that is done in literally every aspect of life to get the most positive end results. It's no different in basketball.


Id say the best scorer is the guy most capable of generating a shot he can make when I need it.

Then the greatest scorer in NBA history is Shaq, unquestionably. Every other player can be doubled off of the ball, or on it for that matter, and trapped into a position where he is incapable of getting off a clean shot. It's literally the same thing that was done to Stephen Curry in college in 1 game. He was utterly useless as a scorer.

The only players that are quite literally unguardable are post players that are literally too big for the opposing team to guard. Everyone else, from Jordan to Durant, can be stopped with a double team. Or at least forced into taking a very low percentage shot.

[tontoz]

2013 LeBron didn't shoot better than Durant has this year. And the margin between 14 Durant and 14 LeBron is minuscule, .05 TS% IIRC.




I was using EFG since people give Durant so much crap about his foul shots.

[Young X]

Jordan's '88 season is the greatest.

35 pts - 60 TS% then 36 pts - 60 TS% in the playoffs, b2b 50 point playoff games, etc.

[Rocketswin2013]

So Durant shooting better from 3(which boosts TS% And EFG%) makes him the better scorer? No matter what else he's losing?


So okay Barkley > Durant as a scorer.
28/12/3/1/1 67 TS% , 60 EFG%

He was worse at PPG, OWS, and PER but my God that TS% and EFG%. :applause:


Very flawed argument. :facepalm As pretty much any argument against the GOAT is.

[tontoz]

Shooting better is making the most POINTS out of the shots you take.


FYP

In basketball the team with the most points wins the game, not the team that shot the highest FG%.

Assuming equal number of attempts the team with the highest TS% will win every game. The team with the highest FG% will lose some.

[tontoz]

So Durant shooting better from 3(which boosts TS% And EFG%) makes him the better scorer? No matter what else he's losing?


So okay Barkley > Durant as a scorer.
28/12/3/1/1 67 TS% , 60 EFG%

He was worse at PPG, OWS, and PER but my God that TS% and EFG%. :applause:


Very flawed argument. :facepalm As pretty much any argument against the GOAT is.


Now you are just trying to change the subject. All i said was that Jordan never shot as well as Durant this season. That is all i said and it is absolutely true.

[Rocketswin2013]

Now you are just trying to change the subject. All i said was that Jordan never shot as well as Durant this season. That is all i said and it is absolutely true.
As shooters


Barkley > Durant > Jordan



Seems about right.

[Kblaze8855]

Shooting better is making the most of the shots you take.

No it's not. It's making the most OUT OF the shots you take. Maximizing every shot attempt. Which would be the total yield from aggregate shot attempts. There is something for that...oh right, it's called True Shooter Percentage.

Again....I dont care about wording issues. Since the first peach basket had a ball shot into it the guy shooting better from the field was said to be shooting better. What nobody ever has and still does not do...is say that that number means his shooting ability is greater.

Guy is shooting 49% hes shooting 49%.

You really want to keep up with a wording argument when its painfully obvious what everyone means?

Really?

Do you have the LEAST bit of suspicion that I dont know what it is you are trying to say? I know you know what im saying. I can give you that credit. Do you really think I dont grasp the concept of a 3 being worth more than a 2?

Are you just trying to redefine basketball terms now?

[DonDadda59]

'Pace adjusted'? What does that even mean? :coleman:

In '87, the Bulls played at a pace of 95.8 (last in the league). In '88 they played at a Pace of 95.5 (again, slowest in the league). The Thunder this year are at 95.6

So why would Jordan's 'pace adjusted' scoring fall by 3 or so points? :confusedshrug:

And you do realize that Durant is getting more FTA/gm than Jordan despite taking less shots and considerably more 3s/gm?

Again... not to interrupt the advanced metric stats circle-jerking, but can the OP please explain to me why he juked the stats to try to fit his ill-conceived argument?

When Jordan scored 37 PPG and 35 PPG, the Bulls played at a pace that was virtually the same (give or take 0.1-0.2 possessions/gm) as the Thunder this season where Durant is averaging a little over 32 PPG. Why are MJ's 'pace adjusted' PPGs like 3 points lower? Did I miss something?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How so? Someone explain this :confusedshrug:

[CavaliersFTW]

April fools! :party: :party: :party:


Good one OP :cheers:

[Joyner82reload]

So Durant shooting better from 3(which boosts TS% And EFG%) makes him the better scorer? No matter what else he's losing?


So okay Barkley > Durant as a scorer.
28/12/3/1/1 67 TS% , 60 EFG%

He was worse at PPG, OWS, and PER but my God that TS% and EFG%. :applause:


Very flawed argument. :facepalm As pretty much any argument against the GOAT is.

The greatest way to measure net scoring, a combination of volume and efficiency, is looking at the differential between points and shot attempts.

Barkley needed 16.0 FGA and 11.9 FTA to reach 28.3 ppg
Durant has needed 20.5 FGA and 10.0 FTA to reach 32.2 ppg
Jordan needed 24.4 FGA and 10.5 FTA to reach 35.0 ppg

The standard NBA eFG% is 50.0% and the standard NBA FT% is 75.6%

Barkley was 3.9 ppg behind Durant. Adding 4.5 FGA @ 50 eFG%(league average) and subtracting 1.9 FTA @ 75.6%(league average), you get a yield of 3.1 ppg. The differential between Barkley and Durant, if the shot attempts were given to a player of league average efficiency, states that Kevin Durant was a better scorer than Barkley by an expected .8 ppg

Jordan averaged 3.9 FGA and .5 more FTA than Durant. He averaged 2.8 more ppg. Giving a league average player 3.9 FGA @ 50 eFG% and .5 FTA @ 75.6% results in 4.3 points per game. The differential between Jordan and Durant was only 2.8 points per game. That means Durant yields 1.5 higher points than expected for a team than Jordan would scoring, given Jordan's higher volume would go to one of Durant's teammates who was an average player.

[tontoz]

Again....I dont care about wording issues. Since the first peach basket had a ball shot into it the guy shooting better from the field was said to be shooting better. What nobody ever has and still does not do...is say that that number means his shooting ability is greater.

Guy is shooting 49% hes shooting 49%.

You really want to keep up with a wording argument when its painfully obvious what everyone means?

Really?

Do you have the LEAST bit of suspicion that I dont know what it is you are trying to say? I know you know what im saying. I can give you that credit. Do you really think I dont grasp the concept of a 3 being worth more than a 2?

Are you just trying to redefine basketball terms now?


It isn't just a question of 3 being worth more than 2. If a guy shoots 50% from 2 and 40% from 3. shooting more 3s hurts his FG% even though it increases his scoring efficiency. That is why FG% is useless for perimeter players.

FG% fools people into thinking that an average shooter like Rose shot better than an elite shooter like Miller.

[Joyner82reload]

Again... not to interrupt the advanced metric stats circle-jerking, but can the OP please explain to me why he juked the stats to try to fit his ill-conceived argument?

When Jordan scored 37 PPG and 35 PPG, the Bulls played at a pace that was virtually the same (give or take 0.1-0.2 possessions/gm). Why are his 'pace adjusted' PPGs like 3 points lower? Did I miss something?

It's league pace, not team pace.

[DonDadda59]

It's league pace, not team pace.

AKA you're bullshitting the public :oldlol:

Why would league pace matter? The fact is that the Thunder in '13-'14 are playing at a pace of 95.6, where KD is putting up 32 PPG

The Bulls in '86-'87 played at a pace of 95.8, Jordan put up 37 PPG. The Bulls in '87-'88 played at a pace of 95.5, Jordan averaged 35 PPG.

So both guy were on teams that played in the 95.5-95.8 region, meaning the difference is literally negligible and virtually identical. One guy put up considerably more points than the other.

But tell us more about free throws, can't wait.

[Rocketswin2013]

AKA you're bullshitting the public :oldlol:

Why would league pace matter? The fact is that the Thunder in '13-'14 are playing at a pace of 95.6, where KD is putting up 32 PPG

The Bulls in '86-'87 played at a pace of 95.8, Jordan put up 37 PPG. The Bulls in '87-'88 played at a pace of 95.5, Jordan averaged 35 PPG.

So both guy were on teams that played in the 95.5-95.8 region, meaning the difference is literally negligible and virtually identical. One guy put up considerably more points than the other.

But tell us more about free throws, can't wait.
Yeah he's a bullshit stat nerd who is coming up with alternatives for stuff like PPS.

Same logic with that "league average" BS. All his arguments cross each other and are relative. Done with this thread.

[Asukal]

Man I love KD but stans like OP.... :facepalm

In this era of soft fouls KD is averaging a lot of FTs while shooting less FGA and more 3PA yet you say he has the GOAT scoring season? :facepalm

KD stans are just like LBJ stans, staying quiet and very likeable at first until their idol finally wins it... :rolleyes:

[Just2McFly]

wow

[Young X]

It's league pace, not team pace.League pace is irrelevant. What does the league's pace (which includes run and gun teams like the Lakers and Suns inflating it) have to do with the pace that Jordan and his teams played at? Team pace is what matters.

'88 Bulls pace: 95.5
'14 Thunder pace: 95.6

'88 league TS%: 53.8
'13 league TS%: 53.6 (can't find the TS% for this year but it's about the same)

Same pace and TS% :confusedshrug:

[stephanieg]

So there's no reason not to expect Durant to keep it up during the playoffs, right? Huehue.

[Flash31]

Team A shoots 80 3 pointers, making 30 of them.
Team B shoots 80 2 pointers, making 44 of them.

Team A shot 37.5% from the field
Team B shot 55.0% from the field

Who won the game?


well unless Team A is an elite rebounding team
Team B won

What the people doing ts are ignorant of is
that
8/20 with 2 3s,with 9/9 from ft line is Not better than
12/20 and 3/5 from line

Player A used basically another 2 posessions and wasted 4 posessions
8/20 is not better than 12/20

Those are 4 misses,
Thats 4 Rebounding opportunities for other team

Contrary to belief here,the Kobe assist is not good

And shooting 80 3s a game WTF?
Is this the Knicks and Warriors with 12 Currys and JR Smiths

Teams shoot 10-25 on avg,some might get 30

80 fg is probably the max
And teams balue possesions and try to be more efficient and useful of team if theyre good
Case in point(Spurs,Heat,Grizzlies)

Even in tht comparison,Team a only has
14 more points while shooting 18% worse

Unless its an elite rebounding and defensive team which 55% against says no,

Team A is not winning

And that comparison is dead wrong bc 3s on avg are made way way less than 2s total and avg

Thats badically Knicks vs Warriors

Yeah Team B made more 3s,shot nearly 20% higher who wins
Nah,Really?


How about
Team A shoots 55% makes 30 3s
B shoots 37 makes 44 3s

who wins that

[Prometheus]

I never realized just how much better Durant has been this year than 2006 Kobe at scoring...jesus christ, the numbers are just absurd.

Kobe averaged 3.2 more ppg on 6.7 more FGA and .2 more FTA. And Durant is averaging 2.5 more rpg and 1.2 more apg :bowdown:

I find it funny how the same people who use these types of arguments and statistics to prop up Durant seem to completely ignore them when applied to LeBron.

[hahaitme]

Championship or bust

[JohnFreeman]

Championship or bust

[The Iron Sheik]

Yes 3.2 more ppg on league average TS% is clearly better :roll:

Kobe needed 27.2 FGA and 10.2 FTA to average 35.4 ppg
Durant has needed 20.5 FGA and 10.0 FTA to average 32.2 ppg

Imagine giving Durant another 6.7 FGA and .2 FTA. He would literally be at 40 ppg

honest question, do you actually watch basketball and form opinions? because when you say shit like this, it's hard to believe that you do.

[tontoz]

honest question, do you actually watch basketball and form opinions? because when you say shit like this, it's hard to believe that you do.


Kobe has always taken too many long, contested jumpers and it gets worse late in games. I noticed that years before i had ever heard of TS%.

[juju151111]

It's league pace, not team pace.
Why would the league pace affect Mj and Durant. Wouldn't team pace make more sense:wtf:

[DonDadda59]

Why would the league pace affect Mj and Durant. Wouldn't team pace make more sense:wtf:

No.

32 PPG>>>37 PPG.

/Thread

[Im Still Ballin]

championship or bust.

And also, Lebrons 2009-2010 season was better.

[LAZERUSS]

50.4 ppg and the next highest full-time scorer is at 31.6 ppg...or an 18.8 ppg differential.

BTW, Wilt averaged 52.7 ppg against HOFer Walt Bellamy in TEN H2H games that season, and 39.7 ppg against RUSSELL in 10 H2H games that season.

[Rocketswin2013]

Worst thread in ISH history.

Very goood scroing season, but nowhere near a GOAT one.

Just 29.8 PER

Just .295 WS/48

Just 50.3 % from the field and 39.3 % from 3

With a crazy usage rate at 33% :wtf:


Kareem,Jordan, Wilt , Shaq has had overall better scoring seasons by far.


ANd LeBron has had several better overall seasons. :banghead:

/Bumped

Then

/Thread

[KyrieTheFuture]

Bust or Championship

[CavaliersFTW]

I had no idea it was 1962

[Doctor Rivers]

/Bumped

Then

/Thread
no

[Kiddlovesnets]

Imagine giving Durant another 6.7 FGA and .2 FTA. He would literally be at 40 ppg

I agree that Durant would score more than 35ppg given additional 6.7 FGA but it's still unlikely he reaches 40ppg. Lets be realistic, the law of marginal diminishing returns applied in this case suggests that for every additional FGA the extra ppg scored will be less than the previous. You know this is true as a player's FG% declines when he shoots more.

For instance, if it takes 20 FGA to score 32ppg, it will take more than 25 FGA to reach 40ppg. The number will probably be larger than 27, maybe even 30. So a reasonable prediction is somewhere around 36-38ppg, not 40+ppg.