True or false Dirk is still a top 10 player

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

i say true but there nikkas sayin no:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[ABfor3]

False. He's top 15

[Inferno]

I can see the argument

[iTare]

sometimes he is.

[Akrazotile]

I judge players by who I would want on my team going into the playoffs.


IMO Dirk is still easily top 10 right now.

[DMAVS41]

Definitely debatable.

What guys are for sure better than him this season?

[J Shuttlesworth]

Definitely debatable.

What guys are for sure better than him this season?
Paul George

































:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[LoneyROY7]

He's no Blake Griffin, but he's a top 15 player.

[JohnFreeman]

False. Top 15 in front of Paul George

[mugiwara]

he played like one today.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Definitely debatable.

What guys are for sure better than him this season?
IMO he has no argument against

KD
CP3
Lebron
LMA

that prolly it TBH:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[LoneyROY7]

IMO he has no argument against

KD
CP3
Lebron
LMA

that prolly it TBH:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Griffin > Dirk.

Deal with it.

[DMAVS41]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Griffin > Dirk.

Deal with it.

I think you have to give Griffin and Love the edge over Dirk.

Don't see LMA though...his efficiency overall is absolute shit compared to Dirk...

I think I'd still take Dirk over LMA this season.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Griffin > Dirk.

Deal with it.
in transition:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
In the playoff and halfcourt game when it slows down gimme Dirk easy.. Clippers would be unanimous best team in league with Dirk instead of Blake

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

I think you have to give Griffin and Love the edge over Dirk.

Don't see LMA though...his efficiency overall is absolute shit compared to Dirk...

I think I'd still take Dirk over LMA this season.
Love not gettin it done in the 4th his team should be in the running for playoff at least and they done now:coleman: :coleman:
Aldridge is better defensively and most of his points come in halfcourt where playoff will be played

[DMAVS41]

Love not gettin it done in the 4th his team should be in the running for playoff at least and they done now:coleman: :coleman:
Aldridge is better defensively and most of his points come in halfcourt where playoff will be played

Agreed, but Dirk hasn't been very good late in games either. He's older now. He can't play as many minutes and he loses his legs at the end of a lot of games (tonight he didn't, but he has a lot)

Love vs Dirk vs Griffin is interesting.

I'd still probably take Dirk in a playoff series over those two like you were saying, but I'm not sure.

Griffin has really impressed me this year and Love has been dealing with a team that falls apart completely when he's not on the court.

I like LMA, but hard to ignore a 50.7% TS...that is pretty freaking awful

[DMAVS41]

he played like one today.

He sure did...lost in the late game controversy crap is that Dirk had a monster game;

33 points 11 boards 3 assists 2 steals 1 block 0 turnovers!

13-21 from the field overall and 6-8 from the 3 point line

I'd love for us to make the playoffs, but the truth is that Mavs fans have been treated to a special year from Dirk. He's gotten us to 13 games over .500 and is averaging;

22/6/3 on 49/39/91 60% TS on the year...

[LoneyROY7]

I think you have to give Griffin and Love the edge over Dirk.

Don't see LMA though...his efficiency overall is absolute shit compared to Dirk...

I think I'd still take Dirk over LMA this season.

My thoughts exactly. I have Dirk right behind Griffin and Love. Love and Dirk are going to have make way for Anthony Davis very soon though.

[bdreason]

He's top 10. Probably in the 7-10 range depending on how you wanna rank the top 10. For example, if we're talking overall impact on a game, I think Davis is probably ranked higher... but I'm not taking Davis over Dirk going into a playoff series.

[ImKobe]

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/d5/d575ebc4d2cac326d6d818bbb96a91e5658706b6ab901c217f 7eeaf2cf5fa603.jpg

[magnax1]

Hes borderline. He cant rebound for shit anymore, but hes basically back to 2011 form other than that and stamina (not that he could rebound in 2011 but Im pretty sure hes worse)

[Yankstar]

Similar to 2013 Kobe or 2012 Wade. Still elite but on the decline, borderline top 10 :hammerhead:

[dunksby]

He is a top ten player, contrary to what many of you believe, he has been pretty consistent this season.
Durant
LeBron
Griffin
Curry
Harden
CP3
Howard
LMA
Parker
Dirk

[SexSymbol]

I'd say EASILY.

LBJ/KD/CP3/BG/PG/LMA/Curry are undoubtebly ahead, that leaves Dirk in the 7-10 range

[T_L_P]

He is a top ten player, contrary to what many of you believe, he has been pretty consistent this season.
Durant
LeBron
Griffin
Curry
Harden
CP3
Howard
LMA
Parker
Dirk

Duncan > Parker this season.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

I'd say EASILY.

LBJ/KD/CP3/BG/PG/LMA/Curry are undoubtebly ahead, that leaves Dirk in the 7-10 range
How are George or Curry undoubtedly ahead:biggums:

[Shep]

He hasn't been top 10 since he won a championship

[Jlamb47]

KD
Lebron
CP3
Curry
Melo
B Griffin
LMA
K Love
Howard
Harden
Paul George - Plays both ways
Russell Westbrook
Duncan
Parker
Anthony Davis

not in order
just players i believe is better then Dirk

[DMAVS41]

KD
Lebron
CP3
Curry
Melo
B Griffin
LMA
K Love
Howard
Harden
Paul George - Plays both ways
Russell Westbrook
Duncan
Parker
Anthony Davis

not in order
just players i believe is better then Dirk

Tony Parker is not better than Dirk.

A lot of the other guys you mentioned are very close and could go either way, but Parker is absolutely not a better player than Dirk.

[raiderfan19]

Do people not realize how average Paul George is on offense?

[ImKobe]

Similar to 2013 Kobe or 2012 Wade. Still elite but on the decline, borderline top 10 :hammerhead:

2013 Kobe didn't look like he was on the decline, he had his best individual year since 07, he was a monster last year. Agree with Wade though.

[DMAVS41]

2013 Kobe didn't look like he was on the decline, he had his best individual year since 07, he was a monster last year. Agree with Wade though.

Yea, but Dirk is still playing within the team concept and while his defense had dropped off...he is still trying hard defensively every night.

If Dirk went out there just trying to score points and rested defensively like Kobe did in 13.

He could easily score 4 or 5 more points per game on maybe slightly less overall efficiency. His raw numbers would be better across the board as well if he played more minutes. He'd wear down by the end of the year and probably would get hurt like Kobe did, but he'd have better numbers.

[DirkNowitzki41]

true. the man still is almost 36 and can still carry a team to a really good record.

youre lying if you say you would rather have a lma or love over dirk in a playoff series

[anyonebutmiami]

OK. Dirk is a shooting god.... I will admit that.

BUT Dirk is in the top 10 worst defensive players in the game today (and
hardly anyone plays defense any more... so he's bad)

I think it is ridiculous to talk about him being top 10 anything!!!!!!!!! His
D is so terrible, it moves him down every list except shooting.
:facepalm

[Cone]

OK. Dirk is a shooting god.... I will admit that.

BUT Dirk is in the top 10 worst defensive players in the game today (and
hardly anyone plays defense any more... so he's bad)

I think it is ridiculous to talk about him being top 10 anything!!!!!!!!! His
D is so terrible, it moves him down every list except shooting.
:facepalm
Uhh... No one bother responding to this kid.

[anyonebutmiami]

true. the man still is almost 36 and can still carry a team to a really good record.

youre lying if you say you would rather have a lma or love over dirk in a playoff series

I'd rather have Taj Gibson than Dirk!!! LMA and Love are the two best
PFs in the game today... not take either over Dirk is unbelievable....

talk about being biased.....:facepalm

[Myth]

False. He is still one of the best overall in the league and can look like he is top 10 caliber on any given night though.

[DirkNowitzki41]

I'd rather have Taj Gibson than Dirk!!! LMA and Love are the two best
PFs in the game today... not take either over Dirk is unbelievable....

talk about being biased.....:facepalm

:roll: :roll: :roll:

taj gibson over dirk? yeah, okay...

if you value defense so much then why the hell would u take love? he is a much worse defender than dirk.

[DMAVS41]

OK. Dirk is a shooting god.... I will admit that.

BUT Dirk is in the top 10 worst defensive players in the game today (and
hardly anyone plays defense any more... so he's bad)

I think it is ridiculous to talk about him being top 10 anything!!!!!!!!! His
D is so terrible, it moves him down every list except shooting.
:facepalm

This isn't even true.

Take a look at the Mavs defensive rating this year. We are the 23rd worst defense in the league. That is bad, but look at our team...it's actually amazing we aren't the worst. Calderon is probably the worst pg defender, Ellis is great at getting steals, but his team defense is poor, Marion is solid still, but not great...we don't have a center really. Dalembert has picked it up lately, but we have played Wright and Blair a ton at center.

Considering we don't have good perimeter defenders...and our center play is very poor. It's actually an accomplishment to only be 23rd worst.

The Mavs defense gets worse with Dirk not on the court as well.

Dirk has definitely dropped off defensively and in terms of rebounding, but he is not one of the worst defensive players in the league...and actually makes a positive impact on our defense this year...mainly because of his size because we don't have shit at center.

[Cone]

This isn't even true.

Take a look at the Mavs defensive rating this year. We are the 23rd worst defense in the league. That is bad, but look at our team...it's actually amazing we aren't the worst. Calderon is probably the worst pg defender, Ellis is great at getting steals, but his team defense is poor, Marion is solid still, but not great...we don't have a center really. Dalembert has picked it up lately, but we have played Wright and Blair a ton at center.

Considering we don't have good perimeter defenders...and our center play is very poor. It's actually an accomplishment to only be 23rd worst.

The Mavs defense gets worse with Dirk not on the court as well.

Dirk has definitely dropped off defensively and in terms of rebounding, but he is not one of the worst defensive players in the league...and actually makes a positive impact on our defense this year...mainly because of his size because we don't have shit at center.

Don't hurt his brain, dude.

[robert de niro]

nah

[Ratnik]

Dirk > Bird

[ArbitraryWater]

2013 Kobe didn't look like he was on the decline, he had his best individual year since 07, he was a monster last year. Agree with Wade though.


If you're ignoring defense that is... everybody had like an and-one highlight video on the guy

[-p.tiddy-]

yes, Dirk is still a top-10 player in the NBA

[MavsPoke]

Similar to 2013 Kobe or 2012 Wade. Still elite but on the decline, borderline top 10 :hammerhead:

Yup. He still has his moments when he impacts a game and is by far the best player on the court. But the moments are getting fewer and farther between.

He needs a lot more from his teammates now. He can't carry the Mavs to the playoffs no matter the roster anymore.

So... I'd say he is somewhere between Top 10-15. But still has nights where he is Top 10 for sure.

It has been fun watching him this season though. And I'll gladly take a couple more.

[IncarceratedBob]

dirk > melo

[ralph_i_el]

If he's on the court and healthy yes.

[Darius]

Let's see:

LBJ
Durant
CP3
BG
Curry
Aldridge
Love
Melo

After that there is no one I'd say is head and shoulders above him.

[DMAVS41]

Let's see:

LBJ
Durant
CP3
BG
Curry
Aldridge
Love
Melo

After that there is no one I'd say is head and shoulders above him.

I like this list outside of Aldridge. I really think he's being over-rated here based on his teams early season success.

Don't get me wrong, I think he's a very good player, but a 50.7% TS rate just isn't good enough at only 23 ppg to. I know he's rebounding and defending better than he has in the past, but I just don't think that is enough to put him clearly ahead of Dirk.

Maybe I'm biased, but I think Duncan should be on the list before LMA.

[Clyde]

Dirk can still be amazing.

it's an up and down argument anyways.

[aj1987]

Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.

KD
LeBron
Griffin
Davis
Love
Melo
CP3 (overrated)
Howard
Dirk
Curry

In order.

[Pointguard]

KD
Lebron
CP3
Curry
Melo
B Griffin
LMA
K Love
Howard
Harden
Paul George - Plays both ways
Russell Westbrook
Duncan
Parker
Anthony Davis

not in order
just players i believe is better then Dirk

I'm not with Parker either. Good list.

LMA and Russell are better players but due to games missed or cost their teams, Dirk perhaps contributed more this year.

[creepingdeath]

I'm not with Parker either. Good list.

LMA and Russell are better players but due to games missed or cost their teams, Dirk perhaps contributed more this year.
Perhaps? Aww man, you'll never change. :lol

[bizil]

Since the late 90's, the PF spot has been loaded pretty much the whole time. Dirk's claim to fame during most of that time was the fact that he was the best scorer of the bunch. I think KG and Duncan were better players, but that was because those guys were all time great defenders and rebounders in addition to great scoring. Even to this day, I put Dirk as likely the best scorer of the PF's in the L today. He still has a certain unstoppable nature that supercedes the other great PF's a bit.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.

KD
LeBron
Griffin
Davis
Love
Melo
CP3 (overrated)
Howard
Dirk
Curry

In order.
heat fan putting KD ahead of Bron.
what a joke:coleman:

[Simple Jack]

This isn't even true.

Take a look at the Mavs defensive rating this year. We are the 23rd worst defense in the league. That is bad, but look at our team...it's actually amazing we aren't the worst. Calderon is probably the worst pg defender, Ellis is great at getting steals, but his team defense is poor, Marion is solid still, but not great...we don't have a center really. Dalembert has picked it up lately, but we have played Wright and Blair a ton at center.

Considering we don't have good perimeter defenders...and our center play is very poor. It's actually an accomplishment to only be 23rd worst.

The Mavs defense gets worse with Dirk not on the court as well.

Dirk has definitely dropped off defensively and in terms of rebounding, but he is not one of the worst defensive players in the league...and actually makes a positive impact on our defense this year...mainly because of his size because we don't have shit at center.

Dallas is ranked 10th vs PG, 10th vs SG, 18th vs SF, 9th vs C, 23rd vs PF.

While some people you mentioned, like Calderon, may have a reputation for being bad defenders; reality suggests otherwise this season. Dirk has clearly been a horrid defender, and it's no surprise that the PF position on Dallas has been the most abused.

[oarabbus]

Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.

KD
LeBron
Griffin
Davis
Love
Melo
CP3 (overrated)
Howard
Dirk
Curry

In order.

Dirk > CP3
Howard >CP3

[DMAVS41]

Dallas is ranked 10th vs PG, 10th vs SG, 18th vs SF, 9th vs C, 23rd vs PF.

While some people you mentioned, like Calderon, may have a reputation for being bad defenders; reality suggests otherwise this season. Dirk has clearly been a horrid defender, and it's no surprise that the PF position on Dallas has been the most abused.

Yet somehow our overall defense gets better with Dirk on the floor

Dirk doesn't guard the scoring pfs much either.... That would be Marion often

Also, if you knew anything, you'd realize that penetration is what has killed us this year

So much goes into that stuff.... I don't even want to know how many Calderon blow byes have led to dunks from opposing bigs

[houston]

of course he is.......he carrying the mavericks right now

[Simple Jack]

Yet somehow our overall defense gets better with Dirk on the floor

Dirk doesn't guard the scoring pfs much either.... That would be Marion often

Also, if you knew anything, you'd realize that penetration is what has killed us this year

So much goes into that stuff.... I don't even want to know how many Calderon blow byes have led to dunks from opposing bigs

They're 20th in points in the paint against. A full 8 points off the best team in the league in Indiana at defending the paint. Only a point off the NBA average.

Stop trying to make excuses for Dirk. It's an accomplishment they're the 7th worst defensive team in the league?

He's a great player, but a horrible defender.

And those numbers I listed for opponent's stats in my prior post aren't just for points.

[Pointguard]

Perhaps? Aww man, you'll never change. :lol

I moved him ahead of Barkley... if that means something.

LMA meant a lot to Portland and they were able to ride his presence to best record for a while there. When he left they fell of but they still are like top 5 ahead of GS.

Westbrook is pretty hard to evaluate or say how much his game has come down from last year.

[chazzy]

Considering we don't have good perimeter defenders...and our center play is very poor. It's actually an accomplishment to only be 23rd worst.

Cmon Dmavs.. you can't defend eeeverything :lol

[DMAVS41]

Cmon Dmavs.. you can't defend eeeverything :lol

I'm not crediting Dirk with that...

Have you seen us play much this year? We try our asses off defensively and without that and without Carlisles magic on defense...it would be much worse.

We have had shit center play.
Dirk really struggles showing on pick and rolls and then recovering.
Calderon is a clown defensively and Harris/Wright missed significant time

If Dirk was as bad defensively as some say he is.... This team should be last in the league.

[DMAVS41]

They're 20th in points in the paint against. A full 8 points off the best team in the league in Indiana at defending the paint. Only a point off the NBA average.

Stop trying to make excuses for Dirk. It's an accomplishment they're the 7th worst defensive team in the league?

He's a great player, but a horrible defender.

And those numbers I listed for opponent's stats in my prior post aren't just for points.

Yes. Take a look at the roster. It's not an excuse... It's reality

Is Lamarcus Aldridge a horrible defender?

Calderon goes to the bench and we get better defensively by 6 points. Dirk goes to the bench and we get like 3 points worse defensively.

Ellis leaves and we get 7 points better....lol

But yea...Dirk is worse

[tpols]

Yes. Take a look at the roster. It's not an excuse... It's reality

Is Lamarcus Aldridge a horrible defender?

Dirk does nothing to make a defense better.. like you said, hes horribly slow defending PnRs which is probably the most used play in the game, and he cant defend the rim. The only two things a big man should be able to do defensively and hes not even average at them.. hes terrible at them.

If you put dirk on a great defensive team like the Heat, he wouldnt even be able to cover the traps and hedges like bosh and birdman do, and he of course wouldnt be defending the rim like them

Aldridge can defend a bit, is tougher, and faster.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk does nothing to make a defense better.. like you said, hes horribly slow defending PnRs which is probably the most used play in the game, and he cant defend the rim. The only two things a big man should be able to do defensively and hes not even average at them.. hes terrible at them.

If you put dirk on a great defensive team like the Heat, he wouldnt even be able to cover the traps and hedges like bosh and birdman do, and he of course wouldnt be defending the rim like them

Aldridge can defend a bit, is tougher, and faster.

Yet He makes the Mavs defense better

I never said he was even a good defender currently

I said he wasn't horrible...lol

[tpols]

Yet He makes the Mavs defense better

I never said he was even a good defender currently

I said he wasn't horrible...lol

Well I guess youre implying hes average then.. Id disagree. Just because you increase an extremely weak defensive squad by a little doesnt mean youre good or even average. It means youre a little better than really bad.

His offense makes up for it though.. definitely a top 10 player.

[DMAVS41]

Well I guess youre implying hes average then.. Id disagree. Just because you increase an extremely weak defensive squad by a little doesnt mean youre good or even average. It means youre a little better than really bad.

His offense makes up for it though.. definitely a top 10 player.

You realize you just agreed with me for the most part.

Really bad defenders generally don't improve the defense of a team....especially at a key position like PF and even more with the fact that Dirk plays most of his minutes against the opposing starters

[DMAVS41]

Tpols

What about a player that hurts an already weak defense by 4 points per 100 when he's on the court?

How do you describe this player?

[tpols]

Tpols

What about a player that hurts an already weak defense by 4 points per 100 when he's on the court?

How do you describe this player?

Its much tougher for old guards to adjust and keep their defense at high levels than bigs because speed/quickness is the first thing to go for people as they age. Big men can stay planted and guard the paint.. guards have to cover the full length of the perimeter. Which is why old KG/Duncan can still dominate defensively, but youll very rarely hear of a old guard dominating defensively..

[Asukal]

False. Dirk's ceiling is top 15.

[Dresta]

Similar to 2013 Kobe or 2012 Wade. Still elite but on the decline, borderline top 10 :hammerhead:
2012 Wade was a fair bit better than present Dirk.

[DMAVS41]

Its much tougher for old guards to adjust and keep their defense at high levels than bigs because speed/quickness is the first thing to go for people as they age. Big men can stay planted and guard the paint.. guards have to cover the full length of the perimeter. Which is why old KG/Duncan can still dominate defensively, but youll very rarely hear of a old guard dominating defensively..

I agree with this that it is harder, but that doesn't take away from reality. Like I always say...it's shocking how being really tall is often and advantage playing basketball. LOL

Also, don't you think it's been pretty hard on Dirk this year? Having to score 22 points per game and also try really hard on defense (regardless of how good he is defensively...Dirk has put in a lot of effort on that side of the court) while not having much help at all at center. Dalembert has been up and down all year only playing 20 mpg. Then Wright has been hurt and is way too weak to protect the paint consistently...again, only 19 mpg...and then we have Blair at 16 minutes per game..LOL

I mean...two weak defenders at the guard positions to stop penetration...and then a very poor center rotation. Marion, Vince, Crowder, and Harris have all played solid defense, but Harris was hurt for like 40 games and Crowders is a spot player.

I asked about LMA because he has a better defensive team around him and they are marginally better than the Mavs. I agree LMA is a better defender than Dirk, but if Dirk is horrible...does that make LMA really bad because he has the 11th worst defense in the league?

Dirk's size alone makes him not a horrible defender at his position. He does a lot more than people give him credit for around the basket....and in post defense.

I just find things like this kind of comical. Someone claims Dirk is a horrible defender...and all I say is that he isn't. What would you expect a team with very weak guard defense and very poor center play to be defensively with an average pf defender? You really expect that team to be in the top half of the league defensively?

So I was just curious what you call a defender that has an already weak defense and it gets considerably worse with him on the floor.

[raiderfan19]

Dorks biggest strength defensively is his offense. Having dirk on the court basically means that the mavs don't have to play transition defense because of how efficient he is and how little he turns the ball over and the worst part of literally every teams defense is transition d.

Dirk really was a quality defender from about 2005-2011 and at least average from 2003-2005 but since the knee injuries/age he's not the defender he once was and a huge part of that is that he's gone from an elite defense rebounder to a bad defensive rebounder. And IMO a lot of that is energy conservation. When he wants to, he can selectively go out and rebound like he used to, see 38/17 game against Houston. But he just doesn't have that every night anymore.

He's still a top 10 player and he's still better than Paul George.

[nathanjizzle]

absolutely not.

[Andrew Wiggins]

false. top 15? yes


let's be honest though, we all know dirk >>>>> kg right now and dirk > kg all time

[Jlamb47]

false. top 15? yes


let's be honest though, we all know dirk >>>>> kg right now and dirk > kg all time

KG > DIRK all time son

KG played both ways his whole career
he rebounds better, plays defense better, he passes better. Only thing Dirk got is scoring. KG over Dirk anyday

[HomieWeMajor]

Of course
Dirk is the white Chris Bosh with better shooting and postgame gotem!

[Simple Jack]

You realize you just agreed with me for the most part.

Really bad defenders generally don't improve the defense of a team....especially at a key position like PF and even more with the fact that Dirk plays most of his minutes against the opposing starters

Are we going to start acting like David Lee is a good defender now? Or that Anthony Davis somehow is a worse defensive player than Dirk using the same metric?

Even Steve Nash makes his teams defense better using that metric. 3 points worse when he's on the bench. Same disparity as Dirk...we going to start calling Nash a good defender? Or not horrible?

[DMAVS41]

Are we going to start acting like David Lee is a good defender now? Or that Anthony Davis somehow is a worse defensive player than Dirk using the same metric?

Even Steve Nash makes his teams defense better using that metric. 3 points worse when he's on the bench. Same disparity as Dirk...we going to start calling Nash a good defender? Or not horrible?

Depends on how you define your terms.

Horrible is a pretty strong word.

You do realize there are varying degrees of stuff. Like a player can be more things than horrible or good? You do realize that...right?

You may not like it or not...and we can use many other metrics as well, but the best defensive metric I come across for defensive impact on a team is rapm.

We should and can use more, but you are the one making the strong statement that a player is a horrible defender. Compared to what I'd ask? What would you expect the average pf to do defensively on this Mavs team? What ranking do you think we should have defensively?

What ranking should the Mavs have? A team that starts one of the worst defensive backcourts in the league and has one of the worst center rotations in the league...

When you say someone is horrible...at least tell me what this team should be doing defensively given their players. We already know they are worse without Dirk...so, like what would this team be like with a not horrible defender? Top 10 in the league? Try to quantify how much this horrible defender hurts the team.

[miles berg]

Dirk can be a top 5 player still...at times. Consistently he is top 15.

But no way I would ever take Kevin Love over him. Griffin & Aldridge? Sure, that day has arrived. Anthony Davis? Better get ready for him he will pass not only Dirk but all of the PFs and be #1 very, very soon for a very, very long time.

KLove is a joke though. If Dirk played with Rubio, Pek, KMart, & Brewer the Mavs would have the 5th seed locked up right now pushing for home court.

[Pointguard]

Are we going to start acting like David Lee is a good defender now? Or that Anthony Davis somehow is a worse defensive player than Dirk using the same metric?

Even Steve Nash makes his teams defense better using that metric. 3 points worse when he's on the bench. Same disparity as Dirk...we going to start calling Nash a good defender? Or not horrible?

:lol You have to be kidding me. Dmavs absolutely lost his mind with this stat in this thread: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=328345&page=12 And HurricaneKid said Dmavs was smarter than 99% of the board and has to be right about this stat.

And Steve Nash is unquestionably one of the worst defenders in the league. Seriously Dmavs, don't ever bring that up again.

[DMAVS41]

:lol You have to be kidding me. Dmavs absolutely lost his mind with this stat in this thread: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=328345&page=12 And HurricaneKid said Dmavs was smarter than 99% of the board and has to be right about this stat.

And Steve Nash is unquestionably one of the worst defenders in the league. Seriously Dmavs, don't ever bring that up again.

What are you talking about?

Nash routinely has a negative defensive rapm and poor defensive rating. LOL

Think about your logic. Nash is unquestionably one of the worst defenders in the league. That was your statement. And what do you know...drapm shows that to be the case. He's like negative 2.5 every year.

So why is it worthless again? Seems to me it's pretty much in line with reality...

[mr.big35]

false. top 15? yes


let's be honest though, we all know dirk >>>>> kg right now and dirk > kg all time

KG was always greater than dirk

[Simple Jack]

Depends on how you define your terms.

Horrible is a pretty strong word.

You do realize there are varying degrees of stuff. Like a player can be more things than horrible or good? You do realize that...right?

You may not like it or not...and we can use many other metrics as well, but the best defensive metric I come across for defensive impact on a team is rapm.

We should and can use more, but you are the one making the strong statement that a player is a horrible defender. Compared to what I'd ask? What would you expect the average pf to do defensively on this Mavs team? What ranking do you think we should have defensively?

What ranking should the Mavs have? A team that starts one of the worst defensive backcourts in the league and has one of the worst center rotations in the league...

When you say someone is horrible...at least tell me what this team should be doing defensively given their players. We already know they are worse without Dirk...so, like what would this team be like with a not horrible defender? Top 10 in the league? Try to quantify how much this horrible defender hurts the team.

I don't really care to define it all that specifically because I'm simply making a general blanket statement that Dirk is a bad defender, and the Mavs are a bad defensive team, in part because Dirk plays for them.

Using that stat though, includes A LOT of variables, that are simply out of the respective player's hands. The fact that you rely so heavily on it despite being able to find countless examples of scrub-defenders having the same impact as Dirk defensively (using that metric) is strange. At least try to objectively listen to the other arguments.

[DMAVS41]

I don't really care to define it all that specifically because I'm simply making a general blanket statement that Dirk is a bad defender, and the Mavs are a bad defensive team, in part because Dirk plays for them.

Using that stat though, includes A LOT of variables, that are simply out of the respective player's hands. The fact that you rely so heavily on it despite being able to find countless examples of scrub-defenders having the same impact as Dirk defensively (using that metric) is strange. At least try to objectively listen to the other arguments.

You realize bad is different than horrible...right? I'd still have an issue with straight up bad, but at least you are making progress...

Of course there are a lot of variables, but you generally don't see a truly terrible/horrible defender having a positive impact on his teams' defensive performance over the course of a season or career...especially once you take a lot of the noise out of the on/off ratings...which is essentially rapm.

Now, defensive rapm doesn't necessarily tell you who the best defenders are...although you can infer it...but what you can do is use it to talk about how a player impacts his teams defense. And Dirk positively impacts the team defense. That is all I have said...well that, and that he's not a horrible defender.

Again though...you've now come off your initial statement.

I love how Nash was brought up earlier as an argument for your side. Can't remember if it was you or someone else, but Nash routinely grades out terribly in defensive rapm. LOL

The Mavs are a poor defensive team. And Dirk is absolutely part of the reason for that. But you implied way more than that. I'd say our inept guard defense and putrid center play is more to blame.

But again I'd like to know what an average defender in place of Dirk would transform this team into? Because the way you talk is that is like Dirk is just killing this team defensively. Like...LMA has a better defensive team around him in my opinion...and the Blazers are marginally better than the Mavs defensively iirc. So what would Aldridge to with these Mavs? Transform them into a top 10 defense or something? Just doesn't seem to follow logically...

[mr.big35]

I don't really care to define it all that specifically because I'm simply making a general blanket statement that Dirk is a bad defender, and the Mavs are a bad defensive team, in part because Dirk plays for them.

Using that stat though, includes A LOT of variables, that are simply out of the respective player's hands. The fact that you rely so heavily on it despite being able to find countless examples of scrub-defenders having the same impact as Dirk defensively (using that metric) is strange. At least try to objectively listen to the other arguments.

you are wasting with this guy he doesnt know any player besides dirk. he thinks he is the greatest ever.