Switch Dirk Nowitzki and Tim Duncan... Which team would be more successful?

[Smook A.]

Let's go back in time. Say we switch Dirk and Timmy in 1999.

How good would the spurs be? Would they have more than 4 championships?

What about the Mavs with Timmy?

[Yankstar]

Tim would be ringless if he stuck with the Mavs....

[Smook A.]

Tim would be ringless if he stuck with the Mavs....
I'd say he'd atleast have 1

[T_L_P]

Tim would be ringless if he stuck with the Mavs....

Some of Dirk's supporting casts were definitely superior to Duncan's.

You don't think Duncan wins in 2006?

[T_L_P]

I'd say he'd atleast have 1

How many do you think Dirk would have?

[Smook A.]

How many do you think Dirk would have?
3. Maybe 4

[Yankstar]

I don't think Duncan could score as well as dirk. The same Mavs team would of struggled to score enough for the chip in 2006. Maybe if they built around Timmy to suit his skills.

[T_L_P]

I don't think Duncan could score as well as dirk. The same Mavs team would of struggled to score enough for the chip in 2006. Maybe if they built around Timmy to suit his skills.

Dirk 2006 Playoffs: 27 PPG / .596 TS%
Duncan 2006 Playoffs: 25.8 PPG / .625 TS%

:confusedshrug:

[T_L_P]

3. Maybe 4

:facepalm

The whole reason why the Spurs were so successful was because of their defensive identity. Duncan is one of the greatest defenders of all time. Dirk simply can't compare to Duncan on defense. We're assuming they had the exact same teammates, so where is the interior D coming from in '03, '04, '05, '06, '07, '08, etc?

Equally, some of those Mavs teams simply needed an interior defender and they probably would have won it all.

Just :facepalm

[bukowski81]

:facepalm

The whole reason why the Spurs were so successful was because of their defensive identity. Duncan is one of the greatest defenders of all time. Dirk simply can't compare to Duncan on defense. We're assuming they had the exact same teammates, so where is the interior D coming from in '03, '04, '05, '06, '07, '08, etc?

Equally, some of those Mavs teams simply needed an interior defender and they probably would have won it all.

Just :facepalm

Most people wont believe you on that.

They even argue that Duncan was a role player and the Spurs can win 50 games without him.

[Yankstar]

Dirk 2006 Playoffs: 27 PPG / .596 TS%
Duncan 2006 Playoffs: 25.8 PPG / .625 TS%

:confusedshrug:

Dirk would of put up better numbers in Pops system. :rolleyes:

[T_L_P]

Dirk would of put up better numbers in Pops system. :rolleyes:


Of course.

[Fire Colangelo]

:facepalm

The whole reason why the Spurs were so successful was because of their defensive identity. Duncan is one of the greatest defenders of all time. Dirk simply can't compare to Duncan on defense. We're assuming they had the exact same teammates, so where is the interior D coming from in '03, '04, '05, '06, '07, '08, etc?

Equally, some of those Mavs teams simply needed an interior defender and they probably would have won it all.

Just :facepalm

Do you think the mavs win in 11 against the Heat with Duncan instead of Dirk?

[T_L_P]

Do you think the mavs win in 11 against the Heat with Duncan instead of Dirk?

Of course not.

[Dunaprenti]

Both teams would get worse. Spurs were build around Duncans defensive mindset and Dallas rely on Dirk to make tough shots.
Spurs have had better teams, throughout the years, so Dirk should win 1 or 2. I don't believe Duncan would win with Mavs cast.

[T_L_P]

Both teams would get worse. Spurs were build around Duncans defensive mindset and Dallas rely on Dirk to make tough shots.
Spurs have had better teams, throughout the years, so Dirk should win 1 or 2. I don't believe Duncan would win with Mavs cast.

Every year though? There were definitely some years, even in the early-mid 2000s, where the Mavs looked better than the Spurs :confusedshrug:

Take '03 for example. Duncan probably wins it all with them, like his did his own cast.

[T_L_P]

If you guys seriously believe this, why couldn't Dirk get it done with his various 50+ win squads?

I don't want to sound like I'm hating on Dirk, because he's my favourite non-Spur of all-time. But c'mon.

[SCdac]

Spurs ultimately wouldn't win without Duncan's elite and all time great defense, court vision, and post presence (he demanded double and triple teams persistently and was brilliant at beating them), but I think Duncan could fill in for the scoring on the Mavs for most of the 2000's. Duncan was a great scorer in his prime and he'd make the Mavs a better defensive team. Overall he's a better player than Dirk and that's not a knock on Dirk (because Duncan is an all time great). Really though it'd depend on how these teams front office's adapt to their skill set. Would all things be exactly as they were or would their be the necessary adjustment in this hypothetical? Mark Cuban + Duncan + high octane offense = a few championships in my opinion.

[T_L_P]

Spurs ultimately wouldn't win without Duncan's elite and all time great defense, court vision, and post presence, but I think Duncan could fill in for the scoring on the Mavs for most of the 2000's. Duncan was a great scorer in his prime and he'd make the Mavs a better defensive team. Overall he's a better player than Dirk and that's not a knock on Dirk (because Duncan is an all time great). Really though it'd depend on how these teams front office's adapt to their skill set. Would all things be exactly as they were or would their be the necessary adjustment in this hypothetical? Mark Cuban + Duncan + high octane offense = a few championships in my opinion.

Thankyou. Like I said above, I don't see where the Spurs get the stops from without Duncan's interior defense, especially after Robinson left.

[T_L_P]

Dirk would of put up better numbers in Pops system. :rolleyes:

2006 Western Conference Semi-Finals:

Dirk: 27.1 PPG / 13.3 RPG / 2.7 APG / 1.4 SPG / 0.4 BPG / .527 FG%

Duncan: 32.2 PPG / 11.7 RPG / 3.7 APG / 1.0 SPG / 2.6 BPG / .556 FG%

All system doe?

[SCdac]

Thankyou. Like I said above, I don't see where the Spurs get the stops from without Duncan's interior defense, especially after Robinson left.

It's not just stops. It's Duncan's basketball IQ, scoring, elite rebounding, assisting, court vision, leadership, clutchness, the attention he demanded, and so many other things that have made him arguably the most important Spur of all time (Gervin and Robinson helped put the team on the map) and a clear #1 overall pick and franchise player in 1997.

[Dunaprenti]

Mavs in 2003 were solid and i believe Duncan would've been better partner for Nash. Still I don't believe Don Nelson is the right to win a title with Duncan.
Who knows though, 2003 is a fair shout and me saying Tim won't win anything is just speculation.
Duncan would've been All time great without Pop, Manu or Tony and he is better (arguably) than Dirk, but the whole Spurs team won those chips.

[T_L_P]

Mavs in 2003 were solid and i believe Duncan would've been better partner for Nash. Still I don't believe Don Nelson is the right to win a title with Duncan.
Who knows though, 2003 is a fair shout and me saying Tim won't win anything is just speculation.
Duncan would've been All time great without Pop, Manu or Tony and he is better (arguably) than Dirk, but the whole Spurs team won those chips.

And just remember that Duncan, along with Russell, Bird and Magic, made everyone around them better. Dirk is a great, great teammate, but most of Duncan's teammates acknowledge he has a knack for adapting his game perfectly to fit his team. And this is especially true on the defensive end.

[Fire Colangelo]

Of course not.

Ok lol just checking.

Anyways, I don't see dirk winning on the Spurs in 99 and 03. I think they'd have trouble with the suns due to lack of interior defense but I like their chances with the pistons, since the dirk led mavs beat the piston 2-0 in 05 regular season I believe. I think they'd have a good chance to win in 07, Dirk was playing MVP ball and the Spurs would've matched up better against GSW, especially under pop. Given that Amare gets suspended (lol) the dirk led spurs would probably come out the west and beat the Cavs.

I see Duncan winning with the Mavs in 03 and 06. But probably no more than that.

So in short, Dirk wins less than Duncan did on the Spurs, and Duncan wins more than dirk on the mavs IMO.

[T_L_P]

Ok lol just checking.

Anyways, I don't see dirk winning on the Spurs in 99 and 03. I think they'd have trouble with the suns due to lack of interior defense but I like their chances with the pistons, since the dirk led mavs beat the piston 2-0 in 05 regular season I believe. I think they'd have a good chance to win in 07, Dirk was playing MVP ball and the Spurs would've matched up better against GSW, especially under pop. Given that Amare gets suspended (lol) the dirk led spurs would probably come out the west and beat the Cavs.

I see Duncan winning with the Mavs in 03 and 06. But probably no more than that.

So in short, Dirk wins less than Duncan did on the Spurs, and Duncan wins more than dirk on the mavs IMO.

:cheers:

[Dunaprenti]

And just remember that Duncan, along with Russell, Bird and Magic, made everyone around them better. Dirk is a great, great teammate, but most of Duncan's teammates acknowledge he has a knack for adapting his game perfectly to fit his team. And this is especially true on the defensive end.

I don't get your point here.
I believe both guys are great teammates. I'm sure Dirk would adapt to Tony and especially Manu.

[HomieWeMajor]

inb4 DMAVS

[T_L_P]

I don't get your point here.
I believe both guys are great teammates. I'm sure Dirk would adapt to Tony and especially Manu.

Why not? Most of Duncan's ex-teammates say he's the greatest player they've got to play with, because he makes everyone around him better. I've never read or heard the same for Dirk :confusedshrug:

[The-Legend-24]

I'll take '11 playoffs Dirk over any version of Duncan.

[Dunaprenti]

Why not? Most of Duncan's ex-teammates say he's the greatest player they've got to play with, because he makes everyone around him better. I've never read or heard the same for Dirk :confusedshrug:

Again I'm not sure what is the question...
Its no surprise that ex-teammates praise Duncan.
Do you think JJ Barea or Haywood wouldn't choose Dirk as the greatest player they've played with?

[JohnFreeman]

Dirk and Duncan playing together would be incredible

[T_L_P]

I'll take '11 playoffs Dirk over any version of Duncan.

What's your agenda against Duncan?

'03 Duncan is superior to '11 Dirk. Then again, I doubt you value defense very much.

[gin17]

duncan is the better overall player of the two.

spurs are (almost) always a better team than the mavs though. so dirk has been playing with less than duncan had/has.

overall, i think the team with duncan would be more successful.

not to knock anything on dirk, as he's obviously one of my favorite players, but this is duncan that we're talking about. dirk is one of the most elite players, but duncan is just better overall. very few people come close to what duncan has done and how good he is.

[Fire Colangelo]

I'll take '11 playoffs Dirk over any version of Duncan.

Jesus you've got to be kidding me:facepalm

Duncan averaged like 28/14/5/4.3blks in 02 playoffs and 25/15/5/3.3 blks in 03 playoffs while anchoring a great defense.

Dirk was good in 11, but acting like his playoff run was untouchable is just :facepalm

[JohnFreeman]

I'll take '11 playoffs Dirk over any version of Duncan.
http://www.jaredthenyctourguide.com/blog/images/john-belushi-in-una-scena-di-animal-house-15584.jpg

[rmt]

I'll take '11 playoffs Dirk over any version of Duncan.

This is why I can't take Kobe stans seriously - blatant attempt to underrate TD. The difference in offense between prime Dirk and prime Duncan is not much. The difference in defense is miles apart - Duncan has the all-time playoff blocks and defensive rebound records. All those millions spent on Chandler, Diop, Dampier, etc in search of a defensive anchor beside Dirk doesn't need to be spent with Duncan - the elite defense and offense all rolled in one.

[JohnMax]

2003 Duncan's 21/20/10/8 is still the GOAT finals performance of all time and will never be topped

[JGXEN]

:facepalm

The whole reason why the Spurs were so successful was because of their defensive identity. Duncan is one of the greatest defenders of all time. Dirk simply can't compare to Duncan on defense. We're assuming they had the exact same teammates, so where is the interior D coming from in '03, '04, '05, '06, '07, '08, etc?

Equally, some of those Mavs teams simply needed an interior defender and they probably would have won it all.

Just :facepalm
Agreed totally

[aj1987]

2003 Duncan's 21/20/10/8 is still the GOAT finals performance of all time and will never be topped
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm


Shaq:

28/20/9/8

One less assist, but 7 MORE points.

[Dresta]

Why are people acting like Dirk never had any good teams? Dallas were stacked in 06 and 07 - there's little chance Duncan wouldn't have won a chip in 06 with Dirk's team imo.

Switch the players and the Mavs win more chips, whereas the Spurs win less.

[T_L_P]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm


Shaq:

28/20/9/8

One less assist, but 7 MORE points.

Shaq held his opponent, Dikembe Mutombo, to 16 points on 5-12 shooting (series average was 16.8 PPG).

Duncan held his opponent, Kenyon Martin, to 6 points on 3-23 shooting (series average was 14.8 PPG).

Duncan wins.

[Horde of Temujin]

Some of Dirk's supporting casts were definitely superior to Duncan's.

You don't think Duncan wins in 2006?

Duncan wouldve been powerless against Dwhistle anyways.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan was better than Dirk by a considerable margin in my opinion, but he also played with more help overall.

I definitely think Dirk wins 2 or 3 titles in place of Duncan on the Spurs given the same help Duncan had.

Not sure how many Duncan wins. Probably at least 2.

[MELOgamaniac]

Duncan still has more rings than Dirk if you switch them. Honestly Dirk may get 1...and only one ring. Besides that I don't see him winning any more. Dirk had better all around squads than duncan and Dirk could not D up like Timmy, but if needed Duncan can put up points like dirk.

[K Xerxes]

Teams would be built differently tailoring to their strengths. Dirk and Duncan are completely different players even at the same position, so it would be stupid to build them the same way. However, I assume that the consistent factor that would remain in Dirk's favor in this scenario is Pop and the Spurs head team. Hard to say, but you can't say that Dirk wouldn't be very successful in Pop's system, because Pop is Pop and will find a way. Oh and he would complement DRob those first few years so well.

I will say that had Duncan been in a similar position to Garnett in Minny, he'd be ringless too. I honestly don't believe there's much of a difference between those two players overall.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan still has more rings than Dirk if you switch them. Honestly Dirk may get 1...and only one ring. Besides that I don't see him winning any more. Dirk had better all around squads than duncan and Dirk could not D up like Timmy, but if needed Duncan can put up points like dirk.

I don't know what teams you were watching, but Duncan definitely played on better teams. And had far superior coaching until Carlisle took over in 2009.

Not a huge difference, but definitely better.

Dirk had a better team in 03, but really outside of that...Duncan had better teams from 04 through 10 when healthy.

As great as Duncan was, he wasn't winning a title on the Mavs from 99 through 02.

[T_L_P]

Teams would be built differently tailoring to their strengths. Dirk and Duncan are completely different players even at the same position, so it would be stupid to build them the same way. However, I assume that the consistent factor that would remain in Dirk's favor in this scenario is Pop and the Spurs head team. Hard to say, but you can't say that Dirk wouldn't be very successful in Pop's system, because Pop is Pop and will find a way. Oh and he would complement DRob those first few years so well.

I will say that had Duncan been in a similar position to Garnett in Minny, he'd be ringless too. I honestly don't believe there's much of a difference between those two players overall.

Even though Pop is something of a miracle worker, I don't see the Spurs as an elite enough defensive team to dominate the league with Dirk as their star. That's assuming the teams are EXACTLY the same throughout their careers.

[JohnFreeman]

Both are top 10 PFs

[DMAVS41]

Even though Pop is something of a miracle worker, if we assume the teams are EXACTLY the same throughout their careers, I don't see the Spurs as an elite enough defensive team to dominate the league.

They definitely wouldn't have been an elite defensive team with Dirk. No way in hell, but they would have been as good or better defensively than most of those Mavs teams.

But give me Parker, Manu, and Pop over anything Dirk had from 04 through 10. Given the kind of results we saw from Dirk during that time with less help and considerably worse coaching...the Spurs with Dirk would have been a force in the league...and would have won at least two titles in that time in my opinion.

[T_L_P]

They definitely wouldn't have been an elite defensive team with Dirk. No way in hell, but they would have been as good or better defensively than most of those Mavs teams.

But give me Parker, Manu, and Pop over anything Dirk had from 04 through 10. Given the kind of results we saw from Dirk during that time with less help and considerably worse coaching...the Spurs with Dirk would have been a force in the league...and would have won at least two titles in that time in my opinion.

Yeah, I agree.

I personally see the Spurs with Dirk definitely winning in '07, and probably winning in '06. Not entirely sure about the years from '07 onward

[JohnFreeman]

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/assets/3927087/duncan_bank.gif
http://homepages.wmich.edu/~jcn3231/Dirk%20fade%202.gif

[guy]

I'd say Duncan with the Mavs win in 03, 06, and 07 and Dirk with the Spurs win in 11.

[aj1987]

Shaq held his opponent, Dikembe Mutombo, to 16 points on 5-12 shooting (series average was 16.8 PPG).

Duncan held his opponent, Kenyon Martin, to 6 points on 3-23 shooting (series average was 14.8 PPG).

Duncan wins.
Nope. Shaq was still better and more dominant. You might want to give the Spurs' zone D more credit though.

[Jlamb47]

I think Mavs would of won with DUncan. Duncan plays both ways DIrk only scores
Duncan does literally everything better then him and he can score as well. Spurs get weak on Defense with Dirk but if he joined Robinson that would of been a nasty combo cuz floor spacing

[navy]

Shaq held his opponent, Dikembe Mutombo, to 16 points on 5-12 shooting (series average was 16.8 PPG).

Duncan held his opponent, Kenyon Martin, to 6 points on 3-23 shooting (series average was 14.8 PPG).

Duncan wins.
Both those opponents are jokes. That isnt an accomplishment and why nobody ranks these two Finals performances highly.

[T_L_P]

Both those opponents are jokes. That isnt an accomplishment and why nobody ranks these two Finals performances highly.

Every ranks them highly :wtf:

[ninephive]

Of course.
No amount of winning and championships will ever get around this "argument." No matter how well Duncan and Parker play, they are "products of the system" now. Funny we never heard this in the past and funny we never hear that about Kobe or Shaq or MJ who played for a coach who did this WITH MULTIPLE TEAMS.

[T_L_P]

Nope. Shaq was still better and more dominant. You might want to give the Spurs' zone D more credit though.

Lol, what a cop out. :oldlol:

Watch them game. Duncan annihilated Martin. Not the zone.

[fpliii]

No amount of winning and championships will ever get around this "argument." No matter how well Duncan and Parker play, they are "products of the system" now. Funny we never heard this in the past and funny we never hear that about Kobe or Shaq or MJ who played for a coach who did this WITH MULTIPLE TEAMS.
I don't think Duncan is a product of the system, but IMO Parker is (mostly) a product of Pop/Timmy.

:confusedshrug:

[T_L_P]

No amount of winning and championships will ever get around this "argument." No matter how well Duncan and Parker play, they are "products of the system" now. Funny we never heard this in the past and funny we never hear that about Kobe or Shaq or MJ who played for a coach who did this WITH MULTIPLE TEAMS.

And it's the same with the guy above. Duncan holds his opponent one of the worst Finals games in NBA history: "must have been the zone."

[aj1987]

Both those opponents are jokes. That isnt an accomplishment and why nobody ranks these two Finals performances highly.
Definitely not the GOAT performances, but among the GOAT performances.


Lol, what a cop out. :oldlol:

Watch them game. Duncan annihilated Martin. Not the zone.
I did and I still prefer Shaq's game. I'm a HUGE Timmy fan, but Shaq >.

[T_L_P]

I don't think Duncan is a product of the system, but IMO Parker is (mostly) a product of Pop/Timmy.

:confusedshrug:

I somewhat agree with that. Parker needed a ton of development before he became truly elite. The same cannot be said for Timmy.

Seriously though, I don't think these people really watched the Spurs back in the day. Pop wasn't always the guy who could make wine out of water. In fact, he even said back in '02 that he gave Duncan three new players and it was his job to make it work. The typical Spurs offense back then was playing 4 Down to Duncan.

[deja vu]

Duncan would be successful with ANY team. He's so much easier to build a contender around than Dirk. Look at all the Dallas teams in the past, they're stacked with talent. Duncan would be even more successful with Cuban's money.

[T_L_P]

I did and I still prefer Shaq's game. I'm a HUGE Timmy fan, but Shaq >.

Fair enough. Two of the best Finals performances regardless :cheers:

[Pointguard]

To me Duncan is an all time great winner in the rare company of Magic, Duncan, Jordan and Russell. Duncan could do any number of things to win a game. He could have scored more, posted more, passed more or rebounded more. He did all of that as the situations called for it. Timmy could morph into different roles. Dirk is great but Timmy is special. His step up into the win ratio is like Jordan's.

[Carbine]

It's as simple as this:

Duncan would provide those Mavs rosters with exactly what they lacked. Size and a defensive anchor, plus one of the best quarterbacks from the post the league has ever seen on offense. He balances those rosters out.

Those Mavs teams were very talented, just put together wrong for Dirk.

[mlp]

Mavs sucked at perimeter defense and Dirks teammates rarely stepped up their game when it mattered (they did against Houston once and 2011)
but I guess Tim would fix that the same way KG fixed that shitty defense for the Twolves :bowdown:

[Odinn]

I believe putting Duncan in the Mavs squad without any changes on the squad isn't reliable. Cuban wasn't afraid of making huge decisions to build a team around Nowitzki. And if includes coaches. Imagine, that kind of money spent on building a team around Duncan.

[Pointguard]

I believe putting Duncan in the Mavs squad without any changes on the squad isn't reliable. Cuban wasn't afraid of making huge decisions to build a team around Nowitzki. And if includes coaches. Imagine, that kind of money spent on building a team around Duncan.
In what way would they not be reliable? isn't that Duncan's most impressive trait? No body who has played the game had a career where you could depend on 55 wins, more playoff series, fewest let downs, most overachievements. That's Duncan.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk probably wins more titles... I could see Dirk win anywhere from 2005-2011, 2012 possibly but he had a slight stepback year, this Season definitely..

[T_L_P]

Dirk probably wins more titles... I could see Dirk win anywhere from 2005-2011, 2012 possibly but he had a slight stepback year, this Season definitely..

If we're assuming they had the exact same teams, there's probably only a select few years that Dirk would win with the Spurs. Where's their defense coming from?

[scm5]

It all depends on the team you put around them.

For instance, if you put Prime Duncan on any team coached by Mike D'antoni, you're not fully utilizing his skillset defensively and offensively.

If you put Dirk on any team coached by Mike D'antoni, you would have put the biggest smile on Mike D'antoni's face because he would see Dirk as a 7 foot C that can shoot 3's.

[MavsPoke]

Fun discussion. Some great posts.

Leave the teams the same:

Switch Pops with Big Nellie/The Little General/Carlise

Which franchise has more rings?

[SCdac]

It all depends on the team you put around them.

For instance, if you put Prime Duncan on any team coached by Mike D'antoni, you're not fully utilizing his skillset defensively and offensively.

If you put Dirk on any team coached by Mike D'antoni, you would have put the biggest smile on Mike D'antoni's face because he would see Dirk as a 7 foot C that can shoot 3's.

Eh... Tim Duncan would turn Mike D'Antoni into a championship coach, I have no doubt in my mind.

Knicks had a top-5 defense in 2012 and Tyson Chandler won DPOY under D'antoni.

Just imagine how prime, early 20's, Tim Duncan would do who played 40+ minutes every game.

I'm not claiming D'antoni was a good or great defensive coach, but it's a player's league, and a HOF'er in Tim Duncan has a way of making a team defensively great.

[RIP CITY]

Wouldn't be much different. Duncan would still be a MUCH better player than Dirk and would still win more Championships than Dirk.

[Anaximandro1]

(2001 - 2007) Mavs had great regular seasons


53 - 29 / 57 - 25 / 60 - 22 / 52 - 30/ 58 - 24 / 60 -22 / 67 - 15

Mavs had enough firepower (Nash, Finley, Van Exel, Jamison, Howard, Walker, Terry...) but really lacked on interior defense and low post-scoring. Duncan is the perfect fit for the Mavs. I think the verdict here is that Mavs would win multiple championships.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-idzvsfDCBCo/Uz3OZz99iMI/AAAAAAAACuU/ACBTBwv-URc/s1600/17.jpg


(2008 - 2013) Spurs have really good teams, but Duncan is too old


Dirk + Parker entering the prime of his career + Manu would have been incredible. I think their only problem is the Lakers' massive size advantage (2008 - 2011) against Kurt Thomas/ Bonner / Blair / Dirk and the Heat Big 3.

Dirk would be a huge upgrade over Duncan, but I

[DMAVS41]

Eh... Tim Duncan would turn Mike D'Antoni into a championship coach, I have no doubt in my mind.

Knicks had a top-5 defense in 2012 and Tyson Chandler won DPOY under D'antoni.

Just imagine how prime, early 20's, Tim Duncan would do who played 40+ minutes every game.

I'm not claiming D'antoni was a good or great defensive coach, but it's a player's league, and a HOF'er in Tim Duncan has a way of making a team defensively great.

For sure, but the difference between the likes of Pop and Avery Johnson or even Don Nelson is huge.

Even the gap between Carlisle and Pop is large.

Coaching is very under-rated here.

If the Mavs had Pop from 03 through 11...I have no doubt we win multiple titles.

[sammichoffate]

Whatever benefit dirk gives with his offense, timmy gives with his defense. So no, they should have the same amount of rings give or take maybe 1.

[SCdac]

For sure, but the difference between the likes of Pop and Avery Johnson or even Don Nelson is huge.

Even the gap between Carlisle and Pop is large.

Coaching is very under-rated here.

If the Mavs had Pop from 03 through 11...I have no doubt we win multiple titles.

I actually think the opposite. Coaching is not as important as the players themselves (Pop will be the first one to say it). Avery Johnson and Carlisle coached their teams into the Finals, so has Mike Brown, Stan Van Gundy, and many others, and if you say, "well it was really the greatness of player x, y, and z that took them to the Finals", then that's exactly my point. It's a players league and greatness would have followed Duncan where ever he went imo. The ultimate two-way player and came into the league ready

[RichieW]

Dirk wins in '99 with DRob. Both Timmy and Dirk could have won in that Spurs team in '00 but Timmy was injured.

Don't see Dirk winning on those Spurs teams after DRob retires. Timmy wins a couple on the Mavs, his defense would be a game changer and he'd be able to beat Dirks Spurs

[Cone]

dirk will have about 3-4 rings. duncan maybe 1

[SCdac]

Dirk wins in '99 with DRob. Both Timmy and Dirk could have won in that Spurs team in '00 but Timmy was injured.

Don't see Dirk winning on those Spurs teams after DRob retires. Timmy wins a couple on the Mavs, his defense would be a game changer and he'd be able to beat Dirks Spurs

Rookie Dirk (8 ppg /.41 FG%/20 mpg) would carry the Spurs to the championship in 99? :roll:

Duncan dropped 29 ppg on Shaqs Lakers in the PO's then 27 ppg in the Finals.

I can't tell if some of you even watched these players respective careers.

[RichieW]

Rookie Dirk (8 ppg /.41 FG%/20 mpg) would carry the Spurs to the championship in 99? :roll:

Duncan dropped 29 ppg on Shaqs Lakers in the PO's then 27 ppg in the Finals.

I can't tell if some of you even watched these players respective careers.

Wow I didn't realise Dirk only hit 8ppg in his rookie season, but in fairness that is only in 20mpg. Robinson was capable of shouldering a lot more of the load in '99 that he did, his numbers dropped because his usage went way down.

Maybe they don't win in '99 then, but I still think they'd have a very good chance. I stand by the fact that they could have won in '00, just as I think Spurs could have beaten the Lakers if Timmy was healthy.

[SCdac]

Wow I didn't realise Dirk only hit 8ppg in his rookie season, but in fairness that is only in 20mpg. Robinson was capable of shouldering a lot more of the load in '99 that he did, his numbers dropped because his usage went way down.

Maybe they don't win in '99 then, but I still think they'd have a very good chance. I stand by the fact that they could have won in '00, just as I think Spurs could have beaten the Lakers if Timmy was healthy.

Dirk was soft/unseasoned, not even better than Michael Finley at the time, and the Mavs missed the playoffs in both 99 and 00. I think you're tripping, man. Agree to disagree

[selrahc]

I think that Greg Popovich carried Duncan to at least 3 of his championships. With Nowitzki on the Spurs he wouldve basically been unstoppable on the offensive end, and they probably wouldve surrounded him with a strong defensive squad. Nowitzki would win 3 or more championships with the Spurs at least. Duncan on the Mavs probably wouldve won like 1 or 2 championships at the most. Most of those Mavs squads were pretty talented but flawed overall and I don't think Duncan would've helped them out too much without Popovich's guidance.

[Black Mamba's B]

Lot's of posters making it seem like Dirk had some scrub squads, he has played with some well constructed teams with great coaching over the years

Duncan has had some solid rosters but Dirk has been surrounded by the better talent over the years while Duncan has had the better coach and system

[DMAVS41]

I actually think the opposite. Coaching is not as important as the players themselves (Pop will be the first one to say it). Avery Johnson and Carlisle coached their teams into the Finals, so has Mike Brown, Stan Van Gundy, and many others, and if you say, "well it was really the greatness of player x, y, and z that took them to the Finals", then that's exactly my point. It's a players league and greatness would have followed Duncan where ever he went imo. The ultimate two-way player and came into the league ready

Do you even read posts your respond to?

I never said coaching was more important than players. I said coaching is under-rated.

The difference between a guy like Avery and Pop is huge....it's just ignorant to act otherwise.

Considering I rank Duncan 4th all time...again, I don't know who you are talking to here.

[DMAVS41]

Lot's of posters making it seem like Dirk had some scrub squads, he has played with some well constructed teams with great coaching over the years

Duncan has had some solid rosters but Dirk has been surrounded by the better talent over the years while Duncan has had the better coach and system

This is not true. Parker and Manu were better than anyone Dirk had from 04 to present.

Dirk played on a loaded team in 03. And outside of that has had some really good and talented teams, but not as good as Duncan's.

Mavs without Dirk on the court since 01? -3.6 points per 100 possessions.

Spurs without Duncan on the court since 01? +1.4 points per 100 possessions.

It's not a huge gap, but Duncan has clearly played with more help...especially as Parker/Manu were better than Dirk's 2nd/3rd best guys routinely as well.

And factor in Pop...again, not a huge gap, but a clear one.

[SCdac]

Do you even read posts your respond to?

I never said coaching was more important than players. I said coaching is under-rated.

The difference between a guy like Avery and Pop is huge....it's just ignorant to act otherwise.

Considering I rank Duncan 4th all time...again, I don't know who you are talking to here.

The 4th all time best player can win with virtually any coach, that's the point... It's not about coaching at that point.

[DMAVS41]

The 4th all time best player can win with virtually any coach, that's the point... It's not about coaching at that point.

I totally agree!

But it's still an advantage. Maybe they don't beat the Pistons in 05 with Avery Johnson.

In fact, I'd bet my life they don't.

It's simply a factor when evaluating this shit...especially as Dirk isn't nearly as good as Duncan nor did he have as much help...so having a great coach like Pop would have been huge.

[Fire Colangelo]

The 4th all time best player can win with virtually any coach, that's the point... It's not about coaching at that point.

You could argue that he wouldn't be 4th all time without pop.

Would Jordan be the GOAT without Phil? Would Kobe be top 10 without Phil?

maybe.

DMAVS is right though, the gap between Pop and Avery is... kind of big. Would Duncan have such longevity had he played for another coach? who knows?

[T_L_P]

Dirk wins in '99 with DRob. Both Timmy and Dirk could have won in that Spurs team in '00 but Timmy was injured.

Don't see Dirk winning on those Spurs teams after DRob retires. Timmy wins a couple on the Mavs, his defense would be a game changer and he'd be able to beat Dirks Spurs

:biggums:

[T_L_P]

dirk will have about 3-4 rings. duncan maybe 1

Which years does Dirk win, with the exact same squads?

[mlp]

Duncan would be successful with ANY team. He's so much easier to build a contender around than Dirk. Look at all the Dallas teams in the past, they're stacked with talent. Duncan would be even more successful with Cuban's money.

what happened at the Olympics 2004?
stacked team and everything

[deja vu]

what happened at the Olympics 2004?
stacked team and everything
They had Iverson and Marbury. :facepalm

[Jlamb47]

what happened at the Olympics 2004?
stacked team and everything

Sure wasnt Duncans fault in that series. The Gaurds couldnt run the offense right.

[rmt]

I think that Greg Popovich carried Duncan to at least 3 of his championships. With Nowitzki on the Spurs he wouldve basically been unstoppable on the offensive end, and they probably wouldve surrounded him with a strong defensive squad. Nowitzki would win 3 or more championships with the Spurs at least. Duncan on the Mavs probably wouldve won like 1 or 2 championships at the most. Most of those Mavs squads were pretty talented but flawed overall and I don't think Duncan would've helped them out too much without Popovich's guidance.

Some posters must actually believe that Peter Holt would spend, spend, spend like Cuban does to build around Dirk. Holt is the cheapskate who traded away talent like Scola just to get rid of Jackie Butler's contract. With Dirk, you have to pay the big bucks to put a defensive big man like Chandler (who isn't cheap) beside him. With Duncan, you already have your defensive anchor. People think it's easy to win 4 rings and usually stay under the luxury tax? Holt ain't Cuban or Jerry Buss.

[houston]

Duncan wins more than Dirk in any situation

[DMAVS41]

Some posters must actually believe that Peter Holt would spend, spend, spend like Cuban does to build around Dirk. Holt is the cheapskate who traded away talent like Scola just to get rid of Jackie Butler's contract. With Dirk, you have to pay the big bucks to put a defensive big man like Chandler (who isn't cheap) beside him. With Duncan, you already have your defensive anchor. People think it's easy to win 4 rings and usually stay under the luxury tax? Holt ain't Cuban or Jerry Buss.

I don't understand this logic.

Duncan played with more help than Dirk! This is just factually true.

And he had better coaching...again, just factually true.

We'll obviously never know how Dirk would have done with the Spurs and vice versa, but please stop acting like Dirk played with similar help. He simply didn't...and the coaching gap is clear as well.

And the Spurs had Parker/Manu...who were just objectively better than guys like Terry and Howard that Dirk had all those years as well. The Spurs grade out better than the Mavs.


Mavs without Dirk on the court since 01? -3.6 points per 100 possessions.

Spurs without Duncan on the court since 01? +1.4 points per 100 possessions.

Exactly what you would expect out of a team with better coaching and a little more help.

How about with them on the court?

With Dirk...+7.6 points per 100 possessions. An 11.2 difference.

With Duncan...+9.8 points per 100 possessions. An 8.4 difference.

Again, exactly what you would expect with a superior player in Duncan compared to Dirk while having more help and better coaching.

[mlp]

They had Iverson and Marbury. :facepalm

so?


Duncan would be successful with ANY team

he was just lucky that he had the perfect team all these years
wondering what would have happened if another team got him back in the days, maybe him on the Twolves and KG on the Spurs just for fun
would he have any title at all or just be another Chris Webber?

[T_L_P]

so?



he was just lucky that he had the perfect team all these years
wondering what would have happened if another team got him back in the days, maybe him on the Twolves and KG on the Spurs just for fun
would he have any title at all or just be another Chris Webber?

Yeah, the '00-'03 Spurs were so incredibly stacked :facepalm

Look at what happened when Duncan went down in '00: they lost to the Suns in the first round (3-1).

[SCdac]

he was just lucky that he had the perfect team all these years
wondering what would have happened if another team got him back in the days, maybe him on the Twolves and KG on the Spurs just for fun
would he have any title at all or just be another Chris Webber?

LOL dude won a championship without a single AS or All-NBA teammate in 03 and in the PO's lead the Spurs in scoring, assists, rebounding, and blocks on the road to a championship. But we all know he got carried by rookie Manu, second year Parker, and 37 year old Robinson :rolleyes:

[DMAVS41]

so?



he was just lucky that he had the perfect team all these years
wondering what would have happened if another team got him back in the days, maybe him on the Twolves and KG on the Spurs just for fun
would he have any title at all or just be another Chris Webber?

Seriously...what are you on?

The 03 Spurs were the perfect team? Take a look back at that team...it was anything but perfect.

Also, what is being ignored on here is a lot of bad luck the Spurs had from 08 until 13.

In 08 they made the conference finals and while Kobe was better than Duncan at that point, the Spurs had a hobbled Manu the entire series and that really hurt their chances. I'm not saying they would have won, but they easily could have considering Manu was the one guy on the Spurs that could challenge Kobe.

In 09 Manu missed the playoffs and Michael Finley was the third leader in minutes played.

In 10 they were really good when they were right, but even though they played really well against the Mavs in round 1, they were't really right in the playoffs. Parker started only 2 of the 10 playoff games they played.

11 Manu was hurt again.

12...Ibaka/Perkins had the game of their lives together in that do or die game 4 iirc that would have put the Spurs up 3-1.

Point is, Duncan hardly had "perfect teams"...from 05 through 07 they were pretty ****ing close to perfect, but during that time they only lost 1 series and won 2 titles.

The rest has been a run of serious injuries to important players and just some bad luck at times...see the 13 finals.

[iamgine]

Straight up switch is hard. Duncan anchors the Spurs defense. Dirk can't do that. For that single reason I think Spurs won't win anything with Dirk.

Duncan might win a few times since the Mavs were a pretty good team for some time.

[tpols]

LOL dude won a championship without a single AS or All-NBA teammate in 03 and in the PO's lead the Spurs in scoring, assists, rebounding, and blocks on the road to a championship. But we all know he got carried by rookie Manu, second year Parker, and 37 year old Robinson :rolleyes:

The spurs won 60 games in 2003.. the spurs have always been the spurs. Perfectly coached and executed team with everyone playing their part.

People act like Duncan was carrying a scrub 30 win team :oldlol: Spurs are just doing what theyve always done.. dominating with relatively unknown players/smart unselfish prospects.

[mentallooser]

Impossible to say. Both teams would have been built completely differently. It isn't like Dallas would make the same front office decisions with Duncan as with Dirk. They would be built differently.

[T_L_P]

The spurs won 60 games in 2003.. the spurs have always been the spurs. Perfectly coached and executed team with everyone playing their part.

People act like Duncan was carrying a scrub 30 win team :oldlol: Spurs are just doing what theyve always done.. dominating with relatively unknown players/smart unselfish prospects.


See DMAVS superstar theory. Very few people in NBA history could win with that team. The dominance needed on both ends of the floor alone.

I guess some of KG's 50-win teams were perfect too.

[raiderfan19]

Huge dirk fan but no way he makes the spurs better. Duncan was/is amazing. That's no disrespect to dirk

[SCdac]

The spurs won 60 games in 2003.. the spurs have always been the spurs. Perfectly coached and executed team with everyone playing their part.

Yeah, they were an elite team, but mostly because of Duncan... the first back-to-back MVP since Jordan... only player top-10 in scoring, rebounding, blocks, and FG%... the Spur who played nearly 10 more minutes of basketball than the next highest Spur in the playoffs (Duncan @ 43 mpg, Parker @ 34 mpg)... They were a cohesive and deep team, but Duncan was the foundation on both ends.

[T_L_P]

Yeah, they were an elite team, but mostly because of Duncan... the first back-to-back MVP since Jordan... only player top-10 in scoring, rebounding, blocks, and FG%... the Spur who played nearly 10 more minutes of basketball than the next highest Spur in the playoffs (Duncan @ 43 mpg, Parker @ 34 mpg)... They were a cohesive and deep team, but Duncan was the foundation on both ends.

Those teams definitely were built well around Duncan (although they weren't nearly as impressive as the '05 or '07 Spurs in my opinion). It's like the Rockets and Hakeem in '94 and '95, yet nobody questions how dominant Hakeem needed to be to make that team successful, whereas it seems more and more people do with Duncan, just because his teams continue to win games in the Regular Season :confusedshrug:

[The-Legend-24]

what happened at the Olympics 2004?
stacked team and everything
:oldlol: :oldlol:

[T_L_P]

:oldlol: :oldlol:

Bronze in 2004 > 7th seed with Dwight, Pau and Nash :confusedshrug:

[magnax1]

Its hard to say with a straight face that Dirk didn't have more help, excluding maybe a couple years where Ginobili was at his best. You do have to give Popovich some credit though. He's the best coach ever by a wide margin. Would the Spurs be anywhere near as successful with Dirk though? No. They have a real chance to win in 07 and that's it.

[The-Legend-24]

Bronze in 2004 > 7th seed with Dwight, Pau and Nash :confusedshrug:
Gtfo. :oldlol:

Representing ur country, and failing like that is a fvcking disgrace.

Kobe brought home the gold, TWICE. :applause:

Kobe > Duncan. :pimp:

[raiderfan19]

Its hard to say with a straight face that Dirk didn't have more help, excluding maybe a couple years where Ginobili was at his best. You do have to give Popovich some credit though. He's the best coach ever by a wide margin. Would the Spurs be anywhere near as successful with Dirk though? No. They have a real chance to win in 07 and that's it.
No it isn't hard at all to say duncan had more help. However that doesn't preclude him from being the better player

[T_L_P]

Gtfo. :oldlol:

Representing ur country, and failing like that is a fvcking disgrace.

Kobe brought home the gold, TWICE. :applause:

Kobe > Duncan. :pimp:

Kobe > Duncan on an international level? I agree :pimp:


Then again, where was Kobe in 2004? Oh yeah, trying to figure out how he and Shaq lost to the Pistons in such an embarrassing fashion :roll:

[Flash31]

Gtfo. :oldlol:

Representing ur country, and failing like that is a fvcking disgrace.

Kobe brought home the gold, TWICE. :applause:

Kobe > Duncan. :pimp:


You mean Dwyane Wade Brought home that Gold
He was the Best Player in that tournament

Now 2004 Finals Kobe brought the Lakers 2nd Place,
That was Kobe

Kobes a great player as is Duncan but Id call it
Duncan>Kobe on clear case 4 rings,3 Finals beats
5 rings,2 Finals with 2 coming from clear Shaq and a third Shaq ouplaying Kobe as well
so baiscally if technical about it 3>2

[TheMarkMadsen]

You mean Dwyane Wade Brought home that Gold
He was the Best Player in that tournament

Now 2004 Finals Kobe brought the Lakers 2nd Place,
That was Kobe

Kobes a great player as is Duncan but Id call it
Duncan>Kobe on clear case 4 rings,3 Finals beats
5 rings,2 Finals with 2 coming from clear Shaq and a third Shaq ouplaying Kobe as well
so baiscally if technical about it 3>2

:lol

[Flash31]

Its hard to say with a straight face that Dirk didn't have more help, excluding maybe a couple years where Ginobili was at his best. You do have to give Popovich some credit though. He's the best coach ever by a wide margin. Would the Spurs be anywhere near as successful with Dirk though? No. They have a real chance to win in 07 and that's it.


They would not be as successful for sure,Duncans defense and rebounding alone makes the spurs better

But what would Tim Duncan do on a team with one of the most consistent highest payrolls for a decade do,The Spurs have rarely hit the Lux tax while the Mavs had a 100+ million dollar payroll for years compared to Dirk and Pop with the Spurs and their payroll

Do the Mavs or Spurs make 06 Finals,
Do Spurs in 05 go 7 with Det or make it
I highly doubt Spurs win in 99 though--

If they switched teams,Id still go with Duncan
Only now hes on a team thats not afraid to spend and does so in a way bigger attractive destination than SA
Duncan can score as well as Dirk and in po when he won those titles he was a machine on o and d

[Flash31]

:lol

Yeah you missed something

3 Finals MVPS>2 Finals MVPS

there ya go

[raiderfan19]

They would not be as successful for sure,Duncans defense and rebounding alone makes the spurs better

But what would Tim Duncan do on a team with one of the most consistent highest payrolls for a decade do,The Spurs have rarely hit the Lux tax while the Mavs had a 100+ million dollar payroll for years compared to Dirk and Pop with the Spurs and their payroll

Do the Mavs or Spurs make 06 Finals,
Do Spurs in 05 go 7 with Det or make it
I highly doubt Spurs win in 99 though--

If they switched teams,Id still go with Duncan
Only now hes on a team thats not afraid to spend and does so in a way bigger attractive destination than SA
Duncan can score as well as Dirk and in po when he won those titles he was a machine on o and d
You sir are a moron

[Flash31]

You sir are a moron


Ok then explain

Tim Duncan who's better than Dirk especially on the Defensive end
with a team that had some of the highest payrolls wouldnt be more successful than Dirk on spurs,is that what you are saying?

I do not see the 1999 Spurs getting to Finals with Dirk,dont see them Beating Det either.

Tim Duncan with the Mavs is better than Dirk with Spurs.

I dont see Dirk carrying the Spurs to 2003 Title either

I realize Dirk and Mavs beat the Heat but dam this is seriously overrating Dirk and like usual underrating Duncan.

[magnax1]

They would not be as successful for sure,Duncans defense and rebounding alone makes the spurs better

But what would Tim Duncan do on a team with one of the most consistent highest payrolls for a decade do,The Spurs have rarely hit the Lux tax while the Mavs had a 100+ million dollar payroll for years compared to Dirk and Pop with the Spurs and their payroll

Do the Mavs or Spurs make 06 Finals,
Do Spurs in 05 go 7 with Det or make it
I highly doubt Spurs win in 99 though--

If they switched teams,Id still go with Duncan
Only now hes on a team thats not afraid to spend and does so in a way bigger attractive destination than SA
Duncan can score as well as Dirk and in po when he won those titles he was a machine on o and d
This is true. A lot of Mav fans have been on a "Dirk didn't have help crusade" but really, it's bullshit. Cuban payed whatever to put pieces around Dirk. Look at those early 00's teams. They were stacked but couldn't play D, a problem that wouldn't be there with a guy like Duncan. The 09 team had Josh Howard, Terry, and Kidd on it and didn't make it past the first round.

[D.J.]

Duncan on the Mavs would be infinitely better than Dirk on the Spurs. The Mavs even back in 2002 and 2003 were only a piece away from winning it all. All they really needed was that good post defender who could do so for 35-40 minutes and that's exactly what Duncan provided. They already had a legit PG, guys who could shoot(even big men who could shoot), and depth. Duncan addresses their only real dire need. When Dallas came up short, they had to rely on guys like Dampier, Diop, and Bradley for post defense. Duncan provides that more than any of them, plus he could do so for 40+ minutes.

Dirk on the Spurs, on the other hand would not be so successful. Dirk is really only an average defender. Since Dirk isn't anchoring a defense, who on the Spurs would? Not David Robinson on his last legs, not Rasho Nesterovic, not Nazr Mohammed, or Fabricio Oberto. Dirk does have the ability to shoot obviously and spread the floor, but you need post defense to win it all and that's something Dirk does not provide.

[tpols]

This is true. A lot of Mav fans have been on a "Dirk didn't have help crusade" but really, it's bullshit. Cuban payed whatever to put pieces around Dirk. Look at those early 00's teams. They were stacked but couldn't play D, a problem that wouldn't be there with a guy like Duncan. The 09 team had Josh Howard, Terry, and Kidd on it and didn't make it past the first round.

Dirk had better offensive help early in his career.. but Duncan doesn't make Michael Finley a great defender.. he doesn't make antwan Jamison a great defender and he sure as he'll doesn't make steve nash a great defender. He doesn't make Don Nelson a great defensive coach.

Duncan had a slew of great defenders on his early teams, including David Robinson and a goat level coach. It's silly to think you can transplant him onto a team full of bad defenders with an offensive coach and expect him to cover all the holes.

Duncan has had better help than dirk since 05 which is the majority of their careers.. and he has played Duncan head to head to a draw in the playoffs. Just like he outplayed KG in some of their series.. duncan/kg maybe more well rounded but dirk can hang with them on the boards and shit on them scoring the ball especially in close games

[DMAVS41]

Its hard to say with a straight face that Dirk didn't have more help, excluding maybe a couple years where Ginobili was at his best. You do have to give Popovich some credit though. He's the best coach ever by a wide margin. Would the Spurs be anywhere near as successful with Dirk though? No. They have a real chance to win in 07 and that's it.

This just isn't true. By any standards...

The following is since 01...which doesn't even count for Duncan having quality help in 98-00...


Mavs without Dirk on the court since 01? -3.6 points per 100 possessions.

Spurs without Duncan on the court since 01? +1.4 points per 100 possessions.

Exactly what you would expect out of a team with better coaching and a little more help.

How about with them on the court?

With Dirk...+7.6 points per 100 possessions. An 11.2 difference.

With Duncan...+9.8 points per 100 possessions. An 8.4 difference.

Again, exactly what you would expect with a superior player in Duncan compared to Dirk while having more help and better coaching.

Dirk did not have more help. He had clearly worse help...made even worse by the fact that the combo of Manu/Parker from 05 on was better than anything Dirk had. Those guys were legit all nba type players even though they weren't on the team for the 05 and 07 titles...and Duncan had an all nba type player in Robinson (was on the team in 00) in 99 when he won

We all know Duncan was clearly a better player than Dirk, but this less help thing has to stop.

Duncan had far better coaching, clearly better help when he was off the court, and had reliable and consistent all nba type players in Parker, Manu, and Robinson in 3 of his 4 titles.

It's not a huge gap, but there is a clear one...that might actually be huge depending on how much better Pop is than a guy like Avery or Nellie...which is just hard to quantify

But even not factoring in coaching (which would be silly not to)...Duncan objectively had more help.

If Dirk played with such great help...why did they get their shit run repeatedly from 01 to present when Dirk isn't on the court? One ****ing year the Mavs had a positive scoring differential with Dirk off the floor...a plus .2 differential in 06...LOL

Think about that...Duncan's career help since 01 was +1.4...Mavs best year ever with Dirk was plus .2

But yea...Dirk had more help...

So what is more likely? That Dirk just had great help and his teams happened to just play like shit for 14 years without him...or that his help was a little over-rated and some of the names Dirk played with and the coaching was pretty over-rated.

Hard to argue for a statistical anomaly when you have a 14 year sample size.

[DMAVS41]

This is true. A lot of Mav fans have been on a "Dirk didn't have help crusade" but really, it's bullshit. Cuban payed whatever to put pieces around Dirk. Look at those early 00's teams. They were stacked but couldn't play D, a problem that wouldn't be there with a guy like Duncan. The 09 team had Josh Howard, Terry, and Kidd on it and didn't make it past the first round.

We upset the Spurs in round 1 in 09 you idiot...

The series we did lose in 09? Dirk just put up 34/12/4 66% TS...Mavs lost in 5.

Dat stacked Dirk help doe...

[DMAVS41]

This is true. A lot of Mav fans have been on a "Dirk didn't have help crusade" but really, it's bullshit. Cuban payed whatever to put pieces around Dirk. Look at those early 00's teams. They were stacked but couldn't play D, a problem that wouldn't be there with a guy like Duncan. The 09 team had Josh Howard, Terry, and Kidd on it and didn't make it past the first round.

Bump.

So are you going to admit you were just factually wrong here? And are you going to defend the claim that Dirk clearly had more help over their careers despite Duncan's teams performing better than Dirk's without each of them on the court by a whopping 5 points per 100 possessions over a 14 year period?

Which isn't even counting the fact that Duncan had very good to great help from 98-00...

[mr.big35]

Duncan would still win more than dirk. dirk would lucky to win one

[DMAVS41]

Duncan would still win more than dirk. dirk would lucky to win one

I think Duncan would win more as well, but I don't think Dirk would be lucky to win one.

Dirk won one with less help and worse coaching. I think you mean to say...Dirk wins at least one...maybe more.

In a hypothetical like this...I don't think it's fair to say a player that won a title playing for a team with less help and worse coaching would be lucky to win one with better help and better coaching.

[Smook A.]

Duncan would still win more than dirk. dirk would lucky to win one
Dirk would be lucky to win one? Haha no way. Dirk with Manu and Parker would be lethal. That trio could win atleast 2.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk would because lucky to win one? Haha no way. Dirk with Manu and Parker would be lethal. That trio could win atleast 2.


Trust me. Give Dirk a positive scoring differential when he's off the court for 14 years...and a combo of Parker/Manu with Pop coaching and he's winning at least 2 titles.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Yeah you missed something

3 Finals MVPS>2 Finals MVPS

there ya go

4 will never beat 5

especially when the 4, has an *

[Smook A.]

Trust me. Give Dirk a positive scoring differential when he's off the court for 14 years...and a combo of Parker/Manu with Pop coaching and he's winning at least 2 titles.
Dirk with Manu and Parker would be crazy. I don't think they'd win 4 championships but they would definitely have atleast 1