Wilt era = about 30 more possessions per game.

[Connor B]

Give Durant the potential of that many more possessions and all of a sudden he's averaging 40 ppg in an era that is far more competitive in regards to just about everything (far more teams, far more black players obviously, loaded conference (west) where 50+ win seasons won't necessarily get you into other playoffs).

Wilt stans are the worst, I swear. They hide behind his inflated numbers, ignore the fact that he was concerned with streaks (did you know he had a streak of not fouling out of games, so if he got to 5 fouls he would essentially stop playing defense in order to keep the steak going) over championships.

[Uncle Drew]

Stop making threads.

[SHAQisGOAT]

This dude goes from dumb post/thread to dumber post/thread.

[LAZERUSS]

Give Durant the potential of that many more possessions and all of a sudden he's averaging 40 ppg in an era that is far more competitive in regards to just about everything (far more teams, far more black players obviously, loaded conference (west) where 50+ win seasons won't necessarily get you into other playoffs).

Wilt stans are the worst, I swear. They hide behind his inflated numbers, ignore the fact that he was concerned with streaks (did you know he had a streak of not fouling out of games, so if he got to 5 fouls he would essentially stop playing defense in order to keep the steak going) over championships.

There is simply so much wrong with this post that I don't know where to begin. First of all, you can't simply use "pace." Why? Because eFG% efficiency was considerably lower back then. If teams were shooting at an eFG% of .500 like the current NBA, then their scoring numbers would have shot thru the roof. Instead, and using the HIGHEST "pace" season in Wilt's career, 61-62, the league collectively shot an eFG% of .426, and averaged 118.8 ppg. For example, in MJ's 86-87 season, when he averaged a career high 37.1 ppg, it came in a league that shot an eFG% of .488, and averaged 109.9 ppg.

In think the key is, in MJ's '87 season, he averaged 27.8 FGA per game, and in Kobe's '06 season, he averaged 27.2 FGA. And both were only playing about 40 mpg. Here again, Oscar had a season in which he averaged 31.4 ppg, but on only 22.0 FGA per game. Rick Barry, who had the highest scoring "non-Wilt" season in the Chamberlain-era, averaged 35.6 ppg on 28.7 FGAs per game. So it was not like every player in the Wilt-era was taking 35 FGAs per game.

As for the ridiculous comment about Wilt having never fouled out of a game...think about this...he averaged 46 mpg in his regular season career, and 47 mpg in his post-season career, and in the regular season he averaged 2.0 PFs per game, and in his post-season's, it was at 2.5 PFs per game. The reality was, he was seldom even sniffing foul trouble. BTW, he was also blocking 8+ shots per game, and going after another 8. Pretty eye-popping numbers.

[Psileas]

LOL, in the early 90's, it were Jordan ignorant groupies the ones that used to ignore and some day "discovered" Wilt and tried to belittle his accomplishments when they realized their idol wouldn't break some of his records (after a while, when Jordan surpassed 2 titles, they predictably started using this type of argument), then followed Kobe ones, then (to a smaller degree) LeBron ones and now that Durant, for the first time in his career, can come close to even half one random Wilt's record, it's their turn...


Wilt era = about 30 more possessions per game.

The vast majority of which were exploited by the players who pushed the pace up there, which is guards and small forwards, not centers.


Give Durant the potential of that many more possessions and all of a sudden he's averaging 40 ppg in an era that is far more competitive in regards to just about everything (far more teams, far more black players obviously, loaded conference (west) where 50+ win seasons won't necessarily get you into other playoffs).

How about giving him the 60's refereeing as well? And no 3's? Other arguments, like the loaded conference are irrelevant (Wilt also played in the tough conference of his own era) and, of course, the number of teams would only hurt Durant if it were smaller and condensed talent. As it is now, most Durant fans are happy every time Westbrook misses a game, but it wouldn't even matter if teams were much less, since others would take shots away from Durant.


Wilt stans are the worst, I swear. They hide behind his inflated numbers, ignore the fact that he was concerned with streaks (did you know he had a streak of not fouling out of games, so if he got to 5 fouls he would essentially stop playing defense in order to keep the steak going) over championships.

Says the fan of the guy who, seeing how his streak was in danger, started taking stupid shot after stupid shot and when he finally made the 3 that gave him 25, raised his finger in triumph, as if he had won something, while his team hadn't even taken the lead. No, it wasn't about the streak, that's for sure...:rolleyes:

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, and regarding Wilt's numbers...had Chamberlain been so inclined, he could have put his career scoring numbers way out of reach. Instead, from 66-67 on, he became a much more balanced offensive player. Still, he had the high scoring game in '67, at 58 points, the high scoring game in '68, at 68, and the high scoring game in '69, at 66. And, we will never know how his 69-70 season might have panned out. His new coach asked him to become the focal point of the offense, and in his first nine games, he was leading the league at 32.2 ppg and on a .579 FG%. Unfortunately, he shredded his knee in that ninth game, and was never the same again.

[Duderonomy]

To paraphrase Wilt, Every rule change in the 90's was made to compliment Jordan's game, every rule change in the 60's was to contain Wilt.

[bmd]

There is simply so much wrong with this post that I don't know where to begin. First of all, you can't simply use "pace." Why? Because eFG% efficiency was considerably lower back then. If teams were shooting at an eFG% of .500 like the current NBA, then their scoring numbers would have shot thru the roof. Instead, and using the HIGHEST "pace" season in Wilt's career, 61-62, the league collectively shot an eFG% of .426, and averaged 118.8 ppg. For example, in MJ's 86-87 season, when he averaged a career high 37.1 ppg, it came in a league that shot an eFG% of .488, and averaged 109.9 ppg.

In think the key is, in MJ's '87 season, he averaged 27.8 FGA per game, and in Kobe's '06 season, he averaged 27.2 FGA. And both were only playing about 40 mpg. Here again, Oscar had a season in which he averaged 31.4 ppg, but on only 22.0 FGA per game. Rick Barry, who had the highest scoring "non-Wilt" season in the Chamberlain-era, averaged 35.6 ppg on 28.7 FGAs per game. So it was not like every player in the Wilt-era was taking 35 FGAs per game.

As for the ridiculous comment about Wilt having never fouled out of a game...think about this...he averaged 46 mpg in his regular season career, and 47 mpg in his post-season career, and in the regular season he averaged 2.0 PFs per game, and in his post-season's, it was at 2.5 PFs per game. The reality was, he was seldom even sniffing foul trouble. BTW, he was also blocking 8+ shots per game, and going after another 8. Pretty eye-popping numbers.I ****ing hate your posts. Somebody says something about Wilt, and you write a ****ing novel every single time to try to win an argument by making more points than somebody else no matter how shitty those points are.

[dude77]

Give Durant the potential of that many more possessions and all of a sudden he's averaging 40 ppg in an era that is far more competitive in regards to just about everything (far more teams, far more black players obviously

pretty fkn tired of seeing this shit over and over and over again on here ..

black players doesn't automatically equate to better competition you dumb fggt ..

seems it's perfectly ok to minimize white players' bball abilities on here without being checked

[jlip]

Both Wilt and MJ avg. roughly 30ppg for their careers. Despite playing 7 fewer minutes per game and in a much slower era with fewer possessions MJ still managed to attempt slightly more fgs per game than Wilt- 22.9 to 22.5.

Both Jerry West and Allen Iverson avg. roughly 27ppg for their careers. Despite playing in a much slower era with fewer possessions, Iverson still managed to attempt more shots per game than West- 21.8 to 20.4

Both Kobe and Oscar Robertson avg. roughly 25ppg for their careers. Despite playing in nearly 6 minutes less and in a much slower era with fewer possessions, Kobe still managed to attempt slightly more shots per game than Big O- 19.6-18.9.

When will people understand that while pace/ # of possessions do matter to an extent when assessing stats, others factors play arguably greater roles in determining statistical output? A player's role and team's system are probably more important than pace/# of possessions could ever be.

[LAZERUSS]

Both Wilt and MJ avg. roughly 30ppg for their careers. Despite playing 7 fewer minutes per game and in a much slower era with fewer possessions MJ still managed to attempt slightly more fgs per game than Wilt- 22.9 to 22.5.

Both Jerry West and Allen Iverson avg. roughly 27ppg for their careers. Despite playing in a much slower era with fewer possessions, Iverson still managed to attempt more shots per game than West- 21.8 to 20.4

Both Kobe and Oscar Robertson avg. roughly 25ppg for their careers. Despite playing in nearly 6 minutes less and in a much slower era with fewer possessions, Kobe still managed to attempt slightly more shots per game than Big O- 19.6-18.9.

When will people understand that while pace/ # of possessions do matter to an extent when assessing stats, others factors play arguably greater roles in determining statistical output? A player's role and team's system are probably more important than pace/# of possessions could ever be.

:bowdown:

[97 bulls]

Both Wilt and MJ avg. roughly 30ppg for their careers. Despite playing**MJ still managed to attempt slightly more fgs per game than Wilt- 22.9 to 22.5.

This isn't genuine. You couldn't possibly compare their respective FGAs and then contextualize in the manner that you did.

When Chamberlain was leading the league in scoring, he was avg roughly 35 FGA per game. Jordan was around 23.

When Chamberlain joined the Sixers, his attempts dropped to roughly 16. And that happened for the rest of his career.

[LAZERUSS]

This isn't genuine. You couldn't possibly compare their respective FGAs and then contextualize in the manner that you did.

When Chamberlain was leading the league in scoring, he was avg roughly 35 FGA per game. Jordan was around 23.

When Chamberlain joined the Sixers, his attempts dropped to roughly 16. And that happened for the rest of his career.

Jordan played the majority of his career in an NBA that shot an eFG% of about .480+, while Chamberlain played in an era in which the league averaged about .435 (and some as low as .395...)

[fpliii]

This isn't genuine. You couldn't possibly compare their respective FGAs and then contextualize in the manner that you did.

When Chamberlain was leading the league in scoring, he was avg roughly 35 FGA per game. Jordan was around 23.

When Chamberlain joined the Sixers, his attempts dropped to roughly 16. And that happened for the rest of his career.
Not all scoring titles are created equal. Not just in terms of attempts, but scoring volume as well. So this argument isn't genuine either.

[Psileas]

When Chamberlain was leading the league in scoring, he was avg roughly 35 FGA per game. Jordan was around 23.

No, he was averaging 31 FGA and Jordan 24. Stop using paukian methods to make your point.

[97 bulls]

Jordan played the majority of his career in an NBA that shot an eFG% of about .480+, while Chamberlain played in an era in which the league averaged about .435 (and some as low as .395...)
So whats the point?

[97 bulls]

Not all scoring titles are created equal. Not just in terms of attempts, but scoring volume as well. So this argument isn't genuine either.
Whats not genuine? Its a fact that Wilt Chamberlain took more shots than Jordan when Wilt was leading the league in scoring. All I did was expose how that poster attempted to twist stats.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Jordan played the majority of his career in an NBA that shot an eFG% of about .480+, while Chamberlain played in an era in which the league averaged about .435 (and some as low as .395...)
The great George Mikan played his career in a league that averaged .387% or less every season :bowdown:

[fpliii]

Whats not genuine? Its a fact that Wilt Chamberlain took more shots than Jordan when Wilt was leading the league in scoring. All I did was expose how that poster attempted to twist stats.
You didn't expose jlip at all, Wilt took more shots, and scored more points when he led the league in scoring. No twisting on his part. :confusedshrug:

[CavaliersFTW]

No, he was averaging 31 FGA and Jordan 24. Stop using paukian methods to make your point.
:roll:

[dankok8]

Both Wilt and MJ avg. roughly 30ppg for their careers. Despite playing 7 fewer minutes per game and in a much slower era with fewer possessions MJ still managed to attempt slightly more fgs per game than Wilt- 22.9 to 22.5.

Both Jerry West and Allen Iverson avg. roughly 27ppg for their careers. Despite playing in a much slower era with fewer possessions, Iverson still managed to attempt more shots per game than West- 21.8 to 20.4

Both Kobe and Oscar Robertson avg. roughly 25ppg for their careers. Despite playing in nearly 6 minutes less and in a much slower era with fewer possessions, Kobe still managed to attempt slightly more shots per game than Big O- 19.6-18.9.

When will people understand that while pace/ # of possessions do matter to an extent when assessing stats, others factors play arguably greater roles in determining statistical output? A player's role and team's system are probably more important than pace/# of possessions could ever be.

The Wilt-MJ comparison is misleading because Jordan played all career long as a scorer whereas Wilt's shot attempts fell off to basically nothing his last couple of years.

Peak scoring Wilt from 61-62 and 62-63 was attempting WAY MORE shots than any version of Jordan. A big part of that is pace and playing so many minutes.

[CavaliersFTW]

The Wilt-MJ comparison is misleading because Jordan played all career long as a scorer whereas Wilt's shot attempts fell off to basically nothing his last couple of years.

Peak scoring Wilt from 61-62 and 62-63 was attempting WAY MORE shots than any version of Jordan. A big part of that is pace and playing so many minutes.
Actually, it is more accurate to say a big part of it was coaches decision... pace did not seem to effect players FGA back then, as fatigue sets in and the ball is moved around accordingly, keeping every other player from that era's FGA to within matched levels in other eras. Wilt's coaches during his scoring years wanted him to take the number of shots he took, because A. he was more accurate than anybody else and B. his stamina and durability were unbelievable and one particular coach (Frank McGuire) wanted to push Wilt's abilities as far as he could imagine in an effort to both win games and see what Wilt was capable of. Conceivably so long a coach wanted him to take that many shots in some other era, he could still do that, regardless of pace, as any team could be made to feed him that many opportunities. Available rebounds appears to be the only stat that convincingly drops off as a direct result of pace.

[jlip]

The Wilt-MJ comparison is misleading because Jordan played all career long as a scorer whereas Wilt's shot attempts fell off to basically nothing his last couple of years.

Peak scoring Wilt from 61-62 and 62-63 was attempting WAY MORE shots than any version of Jordan. A big part of that is pace and playing so many minutes.

My primary point is that other factors outside of pace impact stats. As you stated, and I also indicated, the respective roles often determine statistical output just as much as pace.

While I've never heard you make this claim, there are always attempts to minimize certain statistical accomplishments of the 60s due to the pace factor. The basic premise is, given a higher pace/ # of possessions increases the opportunities for greater stats, we must look at those stats "in context" and assume that if those same players played in a slower paced era then the stats would not be the same.

The problem I have is again, pace is routinely the only factor people treat as affecting statistical output. Does not a greater role on the team increase the opportunities for greater statistical production just as much as pace? How many times have we ever heard that MJs scoring #s are inflated because he's basically the only player whose role allowed him to lead the league in fga almost every healthy season of his career. Even as a 38-39 year old, he was 2nd in fga per game only behind Iverson. Does anyone ever say, let's adjust MJs career scoring to what it would be if he played in a more balanced offensive system such as the Bad Boy Pistons or Showtime Lakers? No...But they love to adjust 60's players' stats based upon pace.

Again all I'm asking is why is pace the only factor that people seek to use when calling stats inflated, when role and system can inflate stats just as much?

[LAZERUSS]

The Wilt-MJ comparison is misleading because Jordan played all career long as a scorer whereas Wilt's shot attempts fell off to basically nothing his last couple of years.

Peak scoring Wilt from 61-62 and 62-63 was attempting WAY MORE shots than any version of Jordan. A big part of that is pace and playing so many minutes.


Put Wilt's 61-62 season in MJ's 86-87 season, and adjust for not only "pace", but eFG%'s as well, which YOU have to do to make the numbers come out...

and Chamberlain would have averaged 45-46 ppg on a .580 eFG%...

And the above adjusts FTAs and FGAs down to '87 levels


But then you could also use simple math...

'61-62 averaged 118.8 ppg
'86-87 averaged 109.9 ppg

109.9/ 118.8 = 92.5 x 50.4 ppg = 46.6 ppg.

[97 bulls]

Put Wilt's 61-62 season in MJ's 86-87 season, and adjust for not only "pace", but eFG%'s as well, which YOU have to do to make the numbers come out...

and Chamberlain would have averaged 45-46 ppg on a .580 eFG%...

And the above adjusts FTAs and FGAs down to '87 levels


But then you could also use simple math...

'61-62 averaged 118.8 ppg
'86-87 averaged 109.9 ppg

109.9/ 118.8 = 92.5 x 50.4 ppg = 46.6 ppg.
Are you including minutes played?

[LAZERUSS]

Are you including minutes played?

Of course. If Wilt could play 48.5 mpg in a slightly faster-paced era back then, he would have had no problem doing it in '87.

Wilt AVERAGED 48.5 MPG in that season, and, had several seasons of over 47.

And how about this...in his 160 post-season games... 47.2 mpg.

I am not going to punish Wilt for something he PROVED he could do.

BTW, IF, we were to reduce Wilt's minutes...and he would still be leading the league, so it would probably have been at a minimum, 44 mpg...

his TRB%'s and FG%'s would have naturally risen...as would all of his efficiencies across the board.

[97 bulls]

You didn't expose jlip at all, Wilt took more shots, and scored more points when he led the league in scoring. No twisting on his part. :confusedshrug:
Jlip tried to make it seem as if Jordan and Chamberlain took the same amount of shots as scoring leaders. Thats not true.

[97 bulls]

Of course. If Wilt could play 48.5 mpg in a slightly faster-paced era back then, he would have had no problem doing it in '87.

Wilt AVERAGED 48.5 MPG in that season, and, had several seasons of over 47.

And how about this...in his 160 post-season games... 47.2 mpg.

I am not going to punish Wilt for something he PROVED he could do.

BTW, IF, we were to reduce Wilt's minutes...and he would still be leading the league, so it would probably have been at a minimum, 44 mpg...

his TRB%'s and FG%'s would have naturally risen...as would all of his efficiencies across the board.
So are you raising Jordans minutes as well?

[LAZERUSS]

Jlip tried to make it seem as if Jordan and Chamberlain took the same amount of shots as scoring leaders. Thats not true.

But, both averaged 30.1 ppg in their entire careers, and MJ took more FGAs per game.

Not a shock.

[jlip]

Jlip tried to make it seem as if Jordan and Chamberlain took the same amount of shots as scoring leaders. Thats not true.

I said absolutely nothing like this whatsoever. My post was clear. I explicitly mentioned career averages.

[CavaliersFTW]

So are you raising Jordans minutes as well?
Are we gifting Jordan Wilt's stamina and durability now? F-outta here if Jordan could have played Wilt's minutes he would have, just like if he were capable of scoring 4,000 points in a season he would have, you don't think he was aware of Wilt's records? You don't think he was chasing as many of them as he could? He never reached most of them because he couldn't :oldlol:

[fpliii]

Jlip tried to make it seem as if Jordan and Chamberlain took the same amount of shots as scoring leaders. Thats not true.
Right, but aren't you making it seem like they averaged the same ppg as scoring leaders? That's not true either...

[97 bulls]

But, both averaged 30.1 ppg in their entire careers, and MJ took more FGAs per game.

Not a shock.
Thats because, as I stated before, Chamberlains FGAs drastically dropped. To almost half. Not saying its due to his no longer being capable. It just was because his role changed.

[97 bulls]

Right, but aren't you making it seem like they averaged the same ppg as scoring leaders? That's not true either...
Why would you draw that conclusion? I never stated such.

[fpliii]

Why would you draw that conclusion? I never stated such.
:confusedshrug:

This isn't genuine. You couldn't possibly compare their respective FGAs and then contextualize in the manner that you did.

When Chamberlain was leading the league in scoring, he was avg roughly 35 FGA per game. Jordan was around 23.

When Chamberlain joined the Sixers, his attempts dropped to roughly 16. And that happened for the rest of his career.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but you mentioned the additional FGA without taking into account ppg those seasons.

[97 bulls]

Are we gifting Jordan Wilt's stamina and durability now? F-outta here if Jordan could have played Wilt's minutes he would have, just like if he were capable of scoring 4,000 points in a season he would have, you don't think he was aware of Wilt's records? You don't think he was chasing as many of them as he could? He never reached most of them because he couldn't :oldlol:
What makes you believe that Jordan couldn't? I think coaches intentionally lowered player minutes so as to keep them fresh for the playoffs. Perhaps thats why Wilts stats dropped so significantly in the playoffs as opposed to the RS.

[LAZERUSS]

What makes you believe that Jordan couldn't? I think coaches intentionally lowered player minutes so as to keep them fresh for the playoffs. Perhaps thats why Wilts stats dropped so significantly in the playoffs as opposed to the RS.

Or, it could be that Chamberlain faced Russell EIGHT TIMES, Thurmond THREE TIMES, Reed TWO TIMES, Bellamy TWO TIMES, and Kareem TWO TIMES.

17 series against Super Centers in his 29 post-season series...

Keep in mind that MJ's scoring and FG%'s dropped considerably in his FOUR playoff series against the "Bad Boys" from '88 thru '91 (and really the Pistons were just a shell in that last series.) Had he faced the equivalent of the "Bad Boys),(particularly from '88 thru '90)...for SEVENTEEN post-season series....just what would have his overall numbers (and playoff W-L record) have been?????

[97 bulls]

Or, it could be that Chamberlain faced Russell EIGHT TIMES, Thurmond THREE TIMES, Reed TWO TIMES, Bellamy TWO TIMES, and Kareem TWO TIMES.

17 series against Super Centers in his 29 post-season series...

Keep in mind that MJ's scoring and FG%'s dropped considerably in his FOUR playoff series against the "Bad Boys" from '88 thru '91 (and really the Pistons were just a shell in that last series.) Had he faced the equivalent of the "Bad Boys),(particularly from '88 thru '90)...for SEVENTEEN post-season series....just what would have his overall numbers (and playoff W-L record) have been?????

Lol. What? So you admit that he was outplayed by his counterparts. I thought Wilt was capable of dominating all of his opponents. I though he was the god-man. Capable of benching 600 lbs, leaping tall buildings in a single bound, screw thounsands of women, and slay sabertoothed tigers with one hand his thang to pee.

But heres the difference. The Bulls WON. and Jordans stats did not drop nearly as bad as Chamberlains did.

As far as the 91 Pistons, who was old? Especially when you consider who was actually defending Jordan. Both Dumars and Rodman were in their prime. Laimbeer was nothing more than a thug. You dont need to be young to do that. And he was never athletic to begin with.

Nice try though.

[LAZERUSS]

Lol. What? So you admit that he was outplayed by his counterparts. I thought Wilt was capable of dominating all of his opponents. I though he was the god-man. Capable of benching 600 lbs, leaping tall buildings in a single bound, screw thounsands of women, and slay sabertoothed tigers with one hand one thang to pee.

But heres the difference. The Bulls WON. and Jordans stats did not drop nearly as bad as Chamberlains did.

As far as the 91 Pistons, who was old? Especially when you consider who was actually defending Jordan. Both Dumars and Rodman were in their prime. Laimbeer was nothing more than a thug. You dont need to be young to do that. And he was never athletic to begin with.

Nice try though.

I NEVER said that. His numbers declined, on average, though, in those SEVENTEEN series...just as MJ's did against the Pistons in his FOUR series.

But, NO, he was seldom, if ever, outplayed in ANY of his 29 post-season series.