Lies of LAZERUSS #1: Kareem is a Playoff Choker [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

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dankok8

04-06-2014, 08:27 PM

This is perhaps the funniest of all his theories because Kareem is arguably the most clutch player of all time. He needs to try and discredit Kareem to boost Wilt's legacy!

First of all let's start with the bottom line... Kareem has 3 NCAA titles, 6 NBA championships, 10 NBA Finals appearances, 14 Conference Finals appearances (NBA record), 2 Finals MVP's (should be 3...) and 6 MVP's in the regular season (NBA record). These are accomplishments that no other player besides Bill Russell and Michael Jordan can rival.

Now let's look at the numbers.

Regular Season: 24.6 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 3.6 apg, 2.6 bpg on 55.9 %FG/72.1 %FT/59.2% TS in 36.8 mpg

Playoffs: 24.3 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.4 bpg on 53.3 %FG/74.0 %FT/57.1 %TS in 37.3 mpg

Finals: 23.5 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.2 bpg on 52.3 %FG/70.2 %FT/55.6 %TS in 36.4 mpg

They hold up pretty well but of course we know Kareem played a large proportion of his playoff games well outside of his prime.

Let's look at the numbers while he was in his prime from '69-'70 to '80-'81.

Regular Season: 28.1 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 4.4 apg, 3.4 bpg on 55.6 %FG/71.5 %FT/58.9% TS in 40.5 mpg

Playoffs: 30.3 ppg, 15.7 rpg, 3.9 apg, 3.4 bpg on 53.3 %FG/72.7 %FT/56.8 %TS in 44.1 mpg

Finals: 31.4 ppg, 14.2 rpg, 4.1 apg, 3.2 bpg on 54.8 %FG/74.7 %FT/57.7 %TS in 44.8 mpg

It's clear that he not only declined in his production but actually elevated his game to unreal levels! 30/15/4 on 54%/72% in the playoffs. That's insanity and then we know he faced a HOF center in almost every single playoff series.

Kareem also has four GOAT-level Finals performances:

1971 vs. Bullets: 27.0 ppg, 18.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, ? bpg on 60.5 %FG/76.2 %FT/63.4 %TS

1974 vs. Celtics: 32.6 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 5.4 apg, 2.1 bpg on 52.4 %FG/70.8 %FT/55.3 %TS

1980 vs. Sixers: 33.4 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.2 apg, 4.6 bpg on 54.9 %FG/80.8 %FT/57.8 %TS

1985 vs. Celtics: 25.7 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 bpg on 60.4 %FG/76.9 %FT/62.9 %TS

And here are the the stats from Game 7's and decisive Game 5's in his prime...

vs. Sixers in 1970: 46 points, 25 rebounds, 2 assists on 50.0 %FG/54.0 %TS

vs. Celtics in 1974: 26 points, 13 rebounds, 4 assists on 47.6 %FG/50.2 %TS

vs. Warriors in 1977: 36 points, 26 rebounds, 4 assists on 56.0 %FG/61.2 %TS

Average: 36.0 ppg, 21.3 rpg, 3.3 apg on 51.2 %FG/55.2 %TS

How about some known clutch performances that come to mind?

Decisive Game 5 vs. Sixers in 1970: 18 points in the 4th quarter
Game 2 vs. Celtics in 1974: Game-winning block on Cowens
Elimination Game 6 vs. Celtics in 1974: Game-winning skyhook on Cowens in OT
Decisive Game 7 vs. Warriors in 1977: 15 points in the 4th quarter to make up a double digit deficit
Decisive Game 3 vs. Nuggets in 1979: Series-winning skyhook
Game 5 vs. Sixers in 1980: 14 fourth quarter points through "a firestorm of pain" after a severe ankle sprain; ended the game with 40 points and a 3-2 lead

Deuce Bigalow

04-06-2014, 08:36 PM

:oldlol: I approve of this :applause:

navy

04-06-2014, 08:38 PM

I dont think any player with a FMVP can be considered a playoff choker. He got it done.

LAZERUSS

04-06-2014, 08:40 PM

This is perhaps the funniest of all his theories because Kareem is arguably the most clutch player of all time. He needs to try and discredit Kareem to boost Wilt's legacy!

First of all let's start with the bottom line... Kareem has 3 NCAA titles, 6 NBA championships, 10 NBA Finals appearances, 14 Conference Finals appearances (NBA record), 2 Finals MVP's (should be 3...) and 6 MVP's in the regular season (NBA record). These are accomplishments that no other player besides Bill Russell and Michael Jordan can rival.

Now let's look at the numbers.

Regular Season: 24.6 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 3.6 apg, 2.6 bpg on 55.9 %FG/72.1 %FT/59.2% TS in 36.8 mpg

Playoffs: 24.3 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.4 bpg on 53.3 %FG/74.0 %FT/57.1 %TS in 37.3 mpg

Finals: 23.5 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.2 bpg on 52.3 %FG/70.2 %FT/55.6 %TS in 36.4 mpg

They hold up pretty well but of course we know Kareem played a large proportion of his playoff games well outside of his prime.

Let's look at the numbers while he was in his prime from '69-'70 to '80-'81.

Regular Season: 28.1 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 4.4 apg, 3.4 bpg on 55.6 %FG/71.5 %FT/58.9% TS in 40.5 mpg

Playoffs: 30.3 ppg, 15.7 rpg, 3.9 apg, 3.4 bpg on 53.3 %FG/72.7 %FT/56.8 %TS in 44.1 mpg

Finals: 31.4 ppg, 14.2 rpg, 4.1 apg, 3.2 bpg on 54.8 %FG/74.7 %FT/57.7 %TS in 44.8 mpg

It's clear that he not only declined in his production but actually elevated his game to unreal levels! 30/15/4 on 54%/72% in the playoffs. That's insanity and then we know he faced a HOF center in almost every single playoff series.

Kareem also has four GOAT-level Finals performances:

1971 vs. Bullets: 27.0 ppg, 18.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, ? bpg on 60.5 %FG/76.2 %FT/63.4 %TS

1974 vs. Celtics: 32.6 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 5.4 apg, 2.1 bpg on 52.4 %FG/70.8 %FT/55.3 %TS

1980 vs. Sixers: 33.4 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.2 apg, 4.6 bpg on 54.9 %FG/80.8 %FT/57.8 %TS

1985 vs. Celtics: 25.7 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 bpg on 60.4 %FG/76.9 %FT/62.9 %TS

And here are the the stats from Game 7's and decisive Game 5's in his prime...

vs. Sixers in 1970: 46 points, 25 rebounds, 2 assists on 50.0 %FG/54.0 %TS

vs. Celtics in 1974: 26 points, 13 rebounds, 4 assists on 47.6 %FG/50.2 %TS

vs. Warriors in 1977: 36 points, 26 rebounds, 4 assists on 56.0 %FG/61.2 %TS

Average: 36.0 ppg, 21.3 rpg, 3.3 apg on 51.2 %FG/55.2 %TS

How about some known clutch performances that come to mind?

Decisive Game 5 vs. Sixers in 1970: 18 points in the 4th quarter
Game 2 vs. Celtics in 1974: Game-winning block on Cowens
Elimination Game 6 vs. Celtics in 1974: Game-winning skyhook on Cowens in OT
Decisive Game 7 vs. Warriors in 1977: 12 points in the 4th quarter to make up a double digit deficit
Decisive Game 3 vs. Nuggets in 1979: Series-winning skyhook
Game 5 vs. Sixers in 1980: 14 fourth quarter points through "a firestorm of pain" after a severe ankle sprain; ended the game with 40 points and a 3-2 lead

Actually MY reply on Kareem was in YOUR RIDICULOUS claims that WILT was a CHOKER, and by using SINGLE games in your argument.

I merely dished out your own medicine.

In all honesty, Kareem was ONE of the greatest ever. I have him at #5 on my all-time list. And I have repeatedly claimed that his play from the '70 playoffs, thru the entire '71 regular season and post-season, and then thru the '72 regular season, was as great as anyone who has ever played the game.

But, yes, I can find MULTIPLE GAMES, and BIG GAMES, as well as entire SERIES in which Kareem CHOKED. Just as I can for Russell (yes Russell), Bird, Hakeem, MJ, Duncan, Shaq, Magic, ...you name them, they had 'em.

LAZERUSS

04-06-2014, 08:43 PM

BTW, do you really want me to repost his "choke jobs" again...

Deuce Bigalow

04-06-2014, 08:44 PM

Actually MY reply on Kareem was in YOUR RIDICULOUS claims that WILT was a CHOKER, and by using SINGLE games in your argument.

I merely dished out your own medicine.

In all honesty, Kareem was ONE of the greatest ever. I have him at #5 on my all-time list. And I have repeatedly claimed that his play from the '70 playoffs, thru the entire '71 regular season and post-season, and then thru the '72 regular season, was as great as anyone who has ever played the game.

But, yes, I can find MULTIPLE GAMES, and BIG GAMES, as well as entire SERIES in which Kareem CHOKED. Just as can for Russell (yes Russell), Bird, Hakeem, MJ, Duncan, Shaq, Magic, ...you name them, they had 'em.
It's not just about single games, its multiple years and career. Kareem's stats don't even drop off in his prime or career. Wilt on the other hand has the largest ppg drops in the playoffs and finals EVER. And his ppg had dropped in the playoffs EVERY year. MJ, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, ect none of their careers do that.

LAZERUSS

04-06-2014, 08:48 PM

It's not just about single games, its multiple years and career. Kareem's stats don't even drop off in his prime or career. Wilt on the other hand has the largest ppg drops in the playoffs and finals EVER. And his ppg had dropped in the playoffs EVERY year. MJ, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, ect none of their careers do that.

Drops from 50 ppg seasons...and going against Russell and the Dynasty EIGHT times?

I should hope so you moron...

How about Kareem in his FIVE playoff series against an aging Nate, and a well past his prime Wilt...

From '71 thru '73, and in his regular seasons, Kareem averaged 32.5 ppg on a .563 FG%..

In those FIVE playoff series... 26 ppg on...get this... a .450 FG%.

Had he faced a PRIME Russell, Wilt, or Nate in EIGHT playoff series, and virtually all of them in the first or second rounds...and his post-season numbers would have looked QUITE different...

Incidently, why don't you "Wilt-bashers" ever bring up the play of Wilt's OPPOSING CENTERS in his playoff career?

Deuce Bigalow

04-06-2014, 08:56 PM

FT% differentials

Regular / Playoffs / Differential
Jordan 83.5 82.8 -0.7
Russell 56.1 60.3 4.2
Kareem 72.1 74 1.9
Magic 84.8 83.8 -1
Bird 88.6 89 0.4
Wilt 51.1 46.5 -4.6
Lebron 74.7 74.9 0.2
Shaq 52.7 50.4 -2.3
Duncan 69.4 68.7 -0.7
Kobe 83.8 81.6 -2.2
Hakeem 71.2 71.9 0.7
Moses 76 75.6 -0.4
Pettit 76.1 77.4 1.3
Oscar 83.8 85.5 1.7
West 81.4 80.5 -0.9
Dr. J. 77.7 78.4 0.7
Karl Malone 74.2 73.6 -0.6
Dirk 87.8 89.3 1.5
Baylor 78 76.9 -1.1
Garnett 79 79.1 0.1
Robinson 73.6 70.8 -2.8

By far the biggest FT% dropoffs between alltime great, maybe even among EVERYONE too.

I'm 99% sure he has the largest FT% dropoff in the Finals (51.1 to 37.5), a -13.6% drop.

Deuce Bigalow

04-06-2014, 08:58 PM

Largest PPG dropoffs

I looked through the top 100 PPG players that played a of minimum 30 playoff games.

Career Playoff PPG - Career Regular Season PPG
Wilt Chamberlain: -7.6 ppg
Glen Robinson: -6.9 ppg
John Drew: -6.7 ppg
Stephon Marbury: -6.7 ppg
World B. Free: -6.3 ppg
Spencer Haywood: -5.8 ppg
Tiny Archibald: -4.6 ppg
Neil Johnston: -4.4 ppg
Jamal Mashburn: -4.1 ppg
Kiki Vandeweghe: -3.6 ppg
Gilbert Arenas: -3.6 ppg
Chris Bosh: -3.6 ppg
David Robinson: -3.0 ppg

LAZERUSS

04-06-2014, 08:58 PM

Here is what started this nonsense...

In a topic which clearly PROVED that Chamberlain was the greatest ELIMINATION GAME player in NBA history...

Dankok8 popped in with this garbage...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9743759&postcount=88

Still offensively it wasn't much of a performance. And you mentioned in your previous post how Wilt won that series without homecourt. It's worth noting that in the regular season the Lakers were without Chamberlain for 70 games, Baylor for 28 games, Hairston for 27 games, and West for 8 games. In the playoffs with a healthy roster they were easily favored over the Hawks.

Anyways here is a list of horrible games by Wilt:

1962 EDF Game 7 - season-low 22 points on 7/15 (46.7%) shooting...

1968 EDF Game 6 & 7 - shot 10/30 (33.3%) from the field and 14/38 (36.8%) from the line in the last 2 games; In game 7 he completely disappeared and took two shots in the second half as his team blew a 3-1 lead

1969 Finals entire series - 11.7 ppg average enough said... team made cut much of the deficit in the 4th quarter of Game 7 without him.

1970 Finals Game 7 - I've seen this game he was indeed terrible... 6 turnovers, no blocks, zero impact on defense

And of course in the 1966 EDF he played well in Game 5 the elimination game with a monstrous 46/34 but he absolutely sucked in that series up to that point as his team fell into a 1-3 hole. Games 1 through 4 he averaged 23.5 ppg on 37/76 (48.7%) shooting.

Out of the blue...and an OBVIOUS attempt to disparage Wilt...

So, I responded with a LONG laundry list of Kareem's "choke jobs."...

BTW, I also took the time to TRASH his above takes on Wilt, too...

LAZERUSS

04-06-2014, 09:00 PM

Deuce Bigalow

04-06-2014, 09:01 PM

Largest Career Regular Season to NBA Finals PPG drop-off

Wilt Chamberlain: -11.5 ppg (30.1, 18.6)

Largest Single Regular Season to NBA Finals PPG drop-off

1. Lebron James 2011: -8.9 ppg (26.7, 17.8)
2. Wilt Chamberlain 1969: -8.8 ppg (20.5, 11.7)
3. Wilt Chamberlain 1964: -7.7 ppg (36.9, 29.2)

LAZERUSS

04-06-2014, 09:02 PM

Deuce Bigalow

04-06-2014, 09:05 PM

LAZERUSS

04-06-2014, 09:06 PM

And for the few who haven't read this...

Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)

3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

And then Deuce's boy...

Kobe: 18 elimination games(8-10):
22.0 ppg, 5.7 reb, 3.4 ast, 1.0 stl, 0.67 blk, 41.6% FG, 77.6% FT, 25.9% 3pt

And BTW, here is Kobe's Finals resume...

99-00
Regular season 22.5 ppg .468 FG%
Finals 15.6 ppg .367 FG%
Last Game of Series .296 FG%

00-01
Regular season 28.5 ppg .464 FG%
Finals 24.6 ppg .415 FG%
Last Game of Series .389 FG%

01-02
Regular season 25.2 ppg .469
Finals 26.8 ppg .514 FG%
Last Game of Series .438 FG%

03-04
Regular season 24.0 ppg .438 FG%
Finals 22.6 ppg .381 FG%
Last Game of Series .333 FG%

07-08
Regular season 28.3 ppg .459 FG%
Finals 25.7 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .318 FG%

08-09
Regular season 26.8 ppg .467 FG%
Finals 32.4 ppg .430 FG%
Last Game of Series .435 FG%

09-10
Regular season 27.0 ppg .456 FG%
Finals 28.6 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .250 FG%

Other noteables:

97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
Team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.
In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86. Kobe shoots .389 from the field.

And yet he has the audacity to label Chamberlain as the greatest Choker of all-time?????????!!!!!!!!!!!
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Jameerthefear

04-06-2014, 09:07 PM

Damn. Wilt getting destroyed.

Jameerthefear

04-06-2014, 09:08 PM

After seeing these stats I'm officially moving Wilt lower on my alltime list. Around 9-10 should be good. My generation just does not respect Wilt Chamberlain.

Deuce Bigalow

04-06-2014, 09:08 PM

LAZERUSS

04-06-2014, 09:09 PM

Wilt

Regular season PPG -- Playoffs PPG
37.6 -- 33.2 (-4.4)
38.4 -- 37.0 (-1.4)
50.4 -- 35/0 (-15.4)
44.8 -- N/A
36.9 -- 34.7 (-2.2)
34.7 -- 29.3 (-5.4)
33.8 -- 28.0 (-5.8)
24.7 -- 21.7 (-3.0)
24.3 -- 23.7 (-0.6)
20.5 -- 13.9 (-6.6)
27.3 -- 22.1 (-5.2)
20.7 -- 18.3 (-2.5)
14.8 -- 14.7 (-0.1)
13.2 -- 10.4 (-2.8)

NEGATIVE EVERY SINGLE YEAR

Regular season PPG -- NBA Finals PPG
36.9 -- 29.2 (-7.7)
24.7 -- 17.7 (-7.0)
20.5 -- 11.7 (-8.8)
27.3 -- 23.3 (-4.0)
14.8 -- 19.4 (+4.6) ONLY POSITIVE ONE
13.2 -- 11.6 (-1.6)

WOW!!!

Here is just ONE example...

Drops from 36.9 ppg down to 34.7 ppg (incidently he RAISED his FG% from .524 to .543)...Oh, and he played two rounds in the playoffs...one against a mere multiple all-star, Zelmo Beaty, and in which he averaged 39 ppg, 23.0 and shot .559l...and the other against RUSSELL, in which he averaged 29 ppg, 28 rpg, and shot .517....in a post-season NBA that averaged 106 ppg and shot .420 from the field.

Yep...CHOKED all right...

Deuce Bigalow

04-06-2014, 09:16 PM

LAZERUSS

04-06-2014, 09:17 PM

BTW, Wilt only played 52, of his 160 total playoff games in his "scoring" seasons, 30 of which came against Russell...

but here were his "choking" numbers even in his first 67 playoff games, and thru his peak years...

30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, .515 FG% (in post-season leagues that shot about .420 on average) and with 8+ bpg.

AVERAGED.

Now, give me a list of the other GOATs who had even ONE playoff SERIES with those numbers. Hell, give me a list of GOATs who had ONE playoff GAME with those numbers.

Oh, and in those 67 games he was just crushing opposing centers in scoring, rebounding, and FG%'s, too...and he faced a HOFer in the majority of them.

Chamberlain "the Choker"...

LAZERUSS

04-06-2014, 09:21 PM

Have to make a revision, Wilt also has the 4th largest single finals series ppg drop.

Single Regular Season to NBA Finals PPG drop-off

1. Lebron James 2011: -8.9 ppg (26.7, 17.8)
2. Wilt Chamberlain 1969: -8.8 ppg (20.5, 11.7)
3. Wilt Chamberlain 1964: -7.7 ppg (36.9, 29.2)
4. Wilt Chamberlain 1967: -7.0 ppg (24.7, 17.7)

3 of the top 4 :oldlol:

please post his OPPOSING center's numbers in those series, including FG% and rpg.

I'll help...

'69: Russell. 9.1 ppg, 21.4 rpg, .397 FG%
'69: Wilt. 11.7 ppg, 25.0 rpg, .500 FG%

'67: Thurmond. 14.3 ppg, 26.7 rpg, .343 FG%
'67: Wilt. 17.5 ppg, 28.5 rpg, .560 FG%

'64: Russell. 11.2 ppg, 25.2 rpg, .386 FG%
'64: Wilt. 29.2 ppg, 27.8 rpg, .517 FG%

BTW, Chamberlain played in THREE playoff series in 68-69. Everyone brings up the Nate and Russell series, (and in which Chamberlain still easily outplayed both, particularly in the clinching games), but how about his five game series against the Hawks: 18.2 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and a .638 FG%. Incidently, and something that never shows up the Deuce Formula...Wilt had 16 blocks in the clinching game five win.

Deuce Bigalow

04-06-2014, 09:23 PM

LAZERUSS

04-06-2014, 09:31 PM

37.6 ppg during that time span,

a -7.2 ppg drop

AVERAGED

Teams nowadays average around 40 rebounds as a team so no one is going to get 27 rebounds at that pace. Wilt's playoff TRB% was no higher than Dwight's.

Dwight never played at 48 mpg either.

a -7.2 ppg drop, and in which 35 of those 67 games were against Russell, and 6 more against Thurmond.

BTW, how about Kareem vs Thurmond in their '71-72 and '72-73 post-season
H2H's...?

Kareem's 71-72 regular season: 34.8 ppg on a .574 FG%
His 5 H2H games against Nate in the 71-72 playoffs: 22.8 ppg on a .405 FG%

72-73: 30.0 ppg on a .554 FG%
Against Nate in 6 H2H playoff games: 22.8 ppg on a .428 FG%.

Hmmm...what a difference

How about KAJ against Wilt in the 70-71 WCF's

Regular season: 31.7 on a .577 FG%
Against Wilt in five playoff games: 25.0 ppg on a .481 FG%

Hmmm...what a difference a GREAT defender makes, don't you think?

LAZERUSS

04-06-2014, 09:35 PM

Oh and Russell...

I believe Deuece's "Choker ranking" has Russell ahead of everyone, with the lowest ranking (most "clutch" I guess).

'60 EDF's:
Russell's 59-16 TEAM beats Wilt's 49-26 TEAM, 4-2.
Russell''s edge in HOFers: 7-3
Russell: 20.7 ppg, 23.1 rpg, .446 FG%
Wilt: 30.2 ppg, 27.5 rpg, .500 FG%

'62 EDF's:
Russell's 60-20 TEAM beats Wilt's 49-31 TEAM, 4-3 (game seven by 2 pts.)
Russell's edge in HOFers: 7-3
Russell: 22.0 ppg, 25.9 rpg, .399 FG%
Wilt: 33.6 ppg, 26.9 rpg, .468 FG%

'64 Finals:
Russell's 59-21 TEAM beat Wilt's 48-32 TEAM, 4-1.
Russell's edge in HOFers: 8-2
Russell: 11.2 ppg, 25.2 rpg, .386 FG%
Wilt: 29.2 ppg, 27.8 rpg, .517 FG%

'65 EDF's:
Russell's 62-18 TEAM beat Wilt's 40-40 TEAM, 4-3 (game seven by 1 pt.)
Russell's edge in HOFers: 6-3
Russell: 15.6 ppg, 25.3 rpg, .447 FG%
Wilt: 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, .555 FG%

'66 EDF's:
Russell's 54-26 TEAM beats Wilt's 55-25 TEAM, 4-1.
Russell's edge in HOFers: 5-4
Russell: 14.0 ppg, 26.2 rpg, .451 FG%
Wilt: 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, .509 FG%

'67 EDF's:
Russell's 60-21 TEAM loses to Wilt's 68-13 TEAM, 4-1.
Russell's edge in HOFers: 7-4
Russell: 10.2 ppg, 23.4 rpg, .358 FG%
Wilt: 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, .556 FG%

'68 EDF's:
Russell's 54-28 TEAM beats Wilt's 62-20 TEAM, 4-3 (game seven by 4 pts.)
sidenote: HALF of Wilt's KEY players are injured, as is Wilt, himself.
Russell's edge in HOFers: 6-4
Russell: 13.7 ppg, 23.9 rpg, .440 FG%
Wilt: 22.1 ppg, 25.1 rpg, .487 FG%

'69 Finals:
Russell's 48-34 TEAM beats Wilt's 55-27 TEAM, 4-3 (Game seven by 2 pts.)
Russell's edge in HOFers: 5-3
Russell: 9.1 ppg, 21.3 rpg, .397 FG%
Wilt: 11.7 ppg, 25.0 rpg, .500 FG%

So much for that "CHOKER RANKING."

Deuce Bigalow

04-06-2014, 09:38 PM

Oh and Russell...
Choking rating don't lie. The rating generated a top 3 of Wilt, Karl Malone, and David Robinson, all three known chokers.

DFish24

04-06-2014, 09:52 PM

Wilt is out of my top ten. Never realized he was the GOAT choker. Honestly Dirk> Wilt.

LAZERUSS

04-06-2014, 10:05 PM

Choking rating don't lie. The rating generated a top 3 of Wilt, Karl Malone, and David Robinson, all three known chokers.

Deuce's "formula"...

which is full of HOLES...

And that doesn't include the fact that Chamberlain was wiping the floor with the likes of Russell, Reed, and Kareem in those games, either.

Sure doesn't speak well for that half-baked formula does it?

Of course, a formula that considers a decline in scoring from 50 ppg down to 35 ppg, as a NEGATIVE (and rewards a player who raises his ppg from 10 to 15 ppg) is really a reach. Nor does that ridiculous formula take into account the DEFENSIVE impact of a player, either. A Wilt who was outscoring his opposing centers by a 30-10 ppg margin in his 11 "at the limit" playoff games, doesn't get credit for that DEFENSE. Or a Wilt who held outshot Thurmond by margins of .500 to .392; .611 to .373; and .560 to .343...gets punished because his regular season averages were higher in two of those series. Same against Russell, when he outshot him by margins of .468 to .399; .500 to .397; .517 to .386; .555 to .447; and .556 to .358 (but gets punished because in only one did he raise his numbers over his regular season average.) Or holding Kareem to two series of .481 and .457 shooting, in seasons in which KAJ shot .577 and .574 in the regular season.

Nor does it take into account Wilt oushooting his opposing centers in nearly everyone of his 29 post-season series, AND, outrebounding them in EVERY one.

And a Chamberlain, who averaged 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515 (in post-season NBAs that shot .420 in that span) in his first 67 playoff games...is considered a "choker" by that formula because his numbers declined from his regular season averages...DESPITE the fact that he faced RUSSELL and the greatest dynasty in NBA history in 35 of those games, and Thurmond in six more (just ask KAJ about Thurmond.)

Or that Wilt's scoring numbers are completely distorted because he only played 52 playoff games, out of his 160, in his "scoring" seasons. And that he faced a HOF starting center in 105 of those 160 games, and a multiple all-star in another 26.

Or that his formula doesn't punish you if your team loses in the first round, but it clearly does if you put up huge first round numbers, and then decline as you move to the Finals. Nor does the formula take into account how a player's TEAMMATES perform. Even if a player plays well in a playoff series, but his teammates puke all over the floor, and his team loses with HCA, well, it goes against HIM.

And one more time, he faced RUSSELL in EIGHT playoff series. Look up MJ's scoring and FG%'s in the FOUR series he had against the "Bad Boys" from '88 thru '91 (and really, the Pistons were a shell in that last one); or Shaq's scoring and FG%'s in his FIVE series against the Spurs from '99 thru '04. And how about Kareem's HUGE decline in his FIVE playoff series against Thurmond and Wilt, when his ppg dropped from nearly 33 ppg in the regular season, down to 26 ppg in those five series, and his FG% dropped from his regular season average of .563 in that span, down to .450 against Thurmond and Wilt.

Sorry, but that "formula" is a POS.

I still like to use an ACTUAL rating system, like Wilt's actual play in his biggest games.,..

Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)

3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

ELEVATED his game, which was already beyond unfathomable, to even more incomprehensible levels...

True GOAT...

LAZERUSS

04-06-2014, 10:07 PM

Once again, Deuce taking the OP completely off-tangent...

and making a complete fool of himself in the process...

Deuce Bigalow

04-06-2014, 10:47 PM

Once again, Deuce taking the OP completely off-tangent...

and making a complete fool of himself in the process...
http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/wtf/grand/kobe_bryan_wtf.gif

PHILA

04-06-2014, 10:52 PM

Kareem is arguably the most clutch player of all time

What is his argument over Russell or Jordan? These are two players that have never lost as the favorite and concluded their respective dynasties winning as an underdog. Neither one had such a poor showing in their prime runs as KAJ did in 1972 and 1973.

LAZERUSS

04-06-2014, 11:32 PM

BTW, take Russell and Thurmond out of Chamberlain's playoffs in the 60's, and here is what you would have...

Take Russell and Thurmond out of his playoffs in the 60's...

a 23-14 record (and series wins in all but one of those years)

And he had these series:

'60. 38.7 ppg, 22.0 rpg,

'61. 37.0 ppg, 23.0 rpg.

'62. 37.0 ppg, 23.0 rpg.

'64. 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg. (.559 FG%...in a post-season that shot an eFG% of .420.)

'65. 27.3 ppg, 20.0 rpg.

'67. 28.0 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, .617 FG%

'68. 25.0 ppg, 24.2 rpg, .584 FG% (against Bellamy, whom he held to a .421 FG%.)

'69. 18.2 ppg, 25.2 rpg, .638 FG%.

His PPG and RPG averages in the 60's, without Russell and Thurmond...

31.2 ppg and 23.2 rpg

dankok8

04-07-2014, 12:57 AM

What is his argument over Russell or Jordan? These are two players that have never lost as the favorite and concluded their respective dynasties winning as an underdog. Neither one had such a poor showing in their prime runs as KAJ did in 1972 and 1973.

To be fair the only series KAJ lost as a favorite in his prime was in '73. He raised his game tremendously in the playoffs, finals, and big games. I wouldn't explicitly call him the most clutch player of all time but he's definitely near the top.

@LAZERUSS

Why don't you post FG%, FT%, and assist numbers for all those series so we can get a better idea? Instead of ya know, cherry-picking stats you want people to see? :lol Bill Russell outassisted and outshot Chamberlain from the line in both the 1964 and 1969 finals you posted on the previous page.

1969 Finals... and Wilt's play in it. Now that's a chokejob and a half! 11.7 ppg average... WOW!

Asukal

04-07-2014, 01:16 AM

Fvck Wilt and his choking ass. I'm dropping him down to #10 on my list. No amount of bullsh!t from gaylauber can change my mind. :banana:

LAZERUSS

04-07-2014, 01:22 AM

To be fair the only series KAJ lost as a favorite in his prime was in '73. He raised his game tremendously in the playoffs, finals, and big games. I wouldn't explicitly call him the most clutch player of all time but he's definitely near the top.

@LAZERUSS

Why don't you post FG%, FT%, and assist numbers for all those series so we can get a better idea? Instead of ya know, cherry-picking stats you want people to see? :lol Bill Russell outassisted and outshot Chamberlain from the line in both the 1964 and 1969 finals you posted on the previous page.

1969 Finals... and Wilt's play in it. Now that's a chokejob and a half! 11.7 ppg average... WOW!

Wilt's scoring "decline" in the '69 Finals is even less than Kareem's in his 71-72 playoff series against Nate...

34.8 ppg down to 22.8 ppg, oh, and how about his FG%? .574 down to .405. Oh, and Thurmond's SCORING went up in that series, from 21.4 ppg to 25.4 ppg in that series, and he also ELEVATED his FG% against Kareem, too, from .432 to .437.
Now THAT is a CHOKE JOB!!!!!!!!!

As for FT shooting...Russell never OUTSCORED Chamberlain from the line in ANY series, and furthermore, we don't know Wilt's EFFECTIVE FT%''s either, only his ACTUAL FT%'s.

And while Russell may have edged Wilt in apg in some series, a "balanced" Chamberlain slaughtered him in that category, as well.

I will take the time to post Wilt's PPG, RPG, and FG%'s, combined in the 60's, as well as his OPPOSING Centers in that same span a little later.

Of course, we BOTH KNOW that it will be MASSIVELY ONE-SIDED, don't we?

dankok8

04-07-2014, 01:30 AM

Wilt's scoring "decline" in the '69 Finals is even less than Kareem's in his 71-72 playoff series against Nate...

34.8 ppg down to 22.8 ppg, oh, and how about his FG%? .574 down to .405. Oh, and Thurmond's SCORING went up in that series, from 21.4 ppg to 25.4 ppg in that series, and he also ELEVATED his FG% against Kareem, too, from .432 to .437.
Now THAT is a CHOKE JOB!!!!!!!!!

As for FT shooting...Russell never OUTSCORED Chamberlain from the line in ANY series, and furthermore, we don't know Wilt's EFFECTIVE FT%''s either, only his ACTUAL FT%'s.

And while Russell may have edged Wilt in apg in some series, a "balanced" Chamberlain slaughtered him in that category, as well.

I will take the time to post Wilt's PPG, RPG, and FG%'s, combined in the 60's, as well as his OPPOSING Centers in that same span a little later.

Of course, we BOTH KNOW that it will be MASSIVELY ONE-SIDED, don't we?

Except in the '72 playoffs Kareem's Bucks beat the crap out of Nate's Warriors 4-1 and after the Warriors won the opener the next two games were total blowouts. How can a player choke if their team wins? :lol

Don't forget to post FT% and TS% as well. Let me help you... in Wilt's eight playoffs series against Russell he eclipsed 51.2 %TS (which is a very crappy efficiency...) exactly twice in 1965 EDF and 1967 EDF.

LAZERUSS

04-07-2014, 01:34 AM

Except in the '72 playoffs Kareem's Bucks beat the crap out of Nate's Warriors 4-1 and after the Warriors won the opener the next two games were total blowouts. How can a player choke if their team wins? :lol

Don't forget to post FT% and TS% as well. Let me help you... in Wilt's eight playoffs series against Russell he eclipsed 51.2 %TS (which is a very crappy efficiency...) exactly twice in 1965 EDF and 1967 EDF.

Again, you do NOT know Wilt's EFFECTIVE FT%'s, nor his EFFECTIVE TS%'s.

Secondly, PLEASE post the POST-SEASON league average's, when you post this nonsense.

As for Kareem...his TEAMMATES obviously slaughtered Thurmond's in 72. Kareem wasn't even the leading scorer for Milwaukee in that series, and aside from Kareem, Milwaukee had THREE players who averaged 18 ppg or better. Thurmond? NONE.

Interesting too, that in another topic, you ripped Psileas for commenting that Wilt won without HCA against the Hawks in '70 (again, on ONE LEG)...in a SWEEP, because of Wilt's relatively poor shooting series. And yet, you somehow claim that since KAJ's Bucks won that '72 series, that it negates the fact that Thurmond just plain dominated him.

AirFederer

04-07-2014, 02:25 AM

ImKobe

04-07-2014, 02:28 AM

And for the few who haven't read this...

And then Deuce's boy...

And BTW, here is Kobe's Finals resume...

And yet he has the audacity to label Chamberlain as the greatest Choker of all-time?????????!!!!!!!!!!!
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Kobe's Finals Resume: 5 rings in 7 Finals appearances, led his team to b2b titles & 3 straight Finals appearances

Kobe's the only player to score 600+ points in 3 consecutive Playoff runs & the only player since MJ to average 32+ points 5+ rebounds 7+ assists in a Finals series. :applause:

And you mention his 2004 Finals, he hit the biggest shot of that series

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvo_ca9cTjk

SexSymbol

04-07-2014, 03:12 AM

Lazeruss please stop posting, you got completely destroyed.

Deuce Bigalow

04-07-2014, 01:59 PM

Deuce, do you know the pace of RS to PO's? And how about his teammates' stats during PO's? Sorry if this is already posted.

Why did his stats drop off, has anyone looked at that? Tougher defence/didn't want the ball/slower pace/change in tactics?

What changed?
I don't know but I would guess that pace declined a little bit, and I know for sure efficiency declines.

Laz posted his teammates FG% in the playoffs but that's it.