The Oscar Robertson Scouting Tool / Docu-highlight Project

[CavaliersFTW]

Okay, much like the Wilt Chamberlain scouting tool, let's move on to the Big-O, Oscar Robertson.

How should I present his video... Scouting tool style, breaking up all plays into organized categories like how I did the latest Wilt video? Or should it be docu-highlight style like how I made that latest Elgin Baylor video?

[Jameerthefear]

Let's slow down. First thing you should be doing is adjusting his stats for if he played in a true era of basketball. Once that's finished we can go from there.

[fpliii]

Okay, much like the Wilt Chamberlain scouting tool, let's move on to the Big-O, Oscar Robertson.

How should I present his video... Scouting tool style, breaking up all plays into organized categories like how I did the latest Wilt video? Or should it be docu-highlight style like how I made that latest Elgin Baylor video?
I'd opt for the latter since I'd assume a lot more is passing, which is tough to categorize. Not sure what everybody else thinks, though.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Like a good high school scouting video. Show the missed shots and spectacular plays so we can get a good feel of his real skill level and tendencies.

[LAZERUSS]

Let's slow down. First thing you should be doing is adjusting his stats for if he played in a true era of basketball. Once that's finished we can go from there.

I doubt Cavs video is going to be comprised of exclusively displaying Oscar's "inflated" stats...

Please...

[CavaliersFTW]

I'd opt for the latter since I'd assume a lot more is passing, which is tough to categorize. Not sure what everybody else thinks, though.
You are right on that part. Not to mention being that Oscar is one of the most 'complete' players of all time, he executes plays that fill up every category imaginable. There would be a much longer laundry list of categories I'd have to make for him.

[dankok8]

Fully agree with the sentiments above. It's too tiresome and probably unnecessary to make categories of plays.

I might consider separating his Royals footage from the Bucks twilight years though. How much Cinci video material is there exactly?

[CavaliersFTW]

Fully agree with the sentiments above. It's too tiresome and probably unnecessary to make categories of plays.

I might consider separating his Royals footage from the Bucks twilight years though. How much Cinci video material is there exactly?
Not enough to make separation valid, something i realized when i put chamberlains 60-68 footage together, followed by a complete "NBA scoring footage" video. You don't realize how limited footage is from that era until you try to narrow the already small window you are looking through.

When a player is one of the best 'all around' at something, it pretty much mandates you need literally all 2-3% of their career clips available if that is all that is available. I still get comments and PM's that even my Wilt complete-NBA-footage scouting video isn't good enough from people who saw Wilt play, they say in his first NBA years he'd shoot every shot imaginable out to 20 feet which honestly, just isn't seen in that video I put together but probably would be better seen had I included his college clips like Lazeruss told me to do, which I may go back and do at some point now that I'm getting outside feedback that that NBA-mix is missing ways Wilt scored early in his NBA years that his NCAA footage actually probably shows him doing. I was hesitant to use it cause those aren't the defenses and competition Wilt was shattering records against, those midwest college boys ARE the stereotypical 'short white guys' people like to make fun of, that wasn't his NBA competition though, but casual fans don't know that.

Anyways I get similar "not complete enough" type comments about my Baylor video from Lakers fans who saw him play, they told me he'd routinely go between his legs before a drive or dribble back and forth behind his back from triple threat waiting for the defender to bite... I've got none of that on film. I think my best bet is to just throw together everything I can and make it a point to hunt for variety and if I'm to exclude any clips for time constraints, exclude some of the more highly repeated undramatic ones. Because I'm sure if Oscar is one of the most complete if not the most complete players of all time, 2-3% of his career is NOT going to be a fair shake in and of itself at the variety of things he probably did.

[WillC]

I personally think your best highlights video is the one you did for Jerry West. I liked the way you had all of his defensive plays together, all of his passing highlights together, etc.

However, I wouldn't bother going as far as to categorise each type of shot together; it must be too time consuming and unnecessary. Also, as a viewer, it can get mundane watching the same play over and over again - I prefer things to be mixed up slightly.

Your videos are world class by the way. I can't thank you enough for making them. About half of my YouTube 'favourites' are videos of yours.

[CavaliersFTW]

Been combing through Oscar games slowly but surely, one thing is becoming clear... it's his powerful, and I mean powerful hesitation dribble that made him such a force, he'd hesitate and hammer the ball into the floor and from the defenders perspective you didn't know wtf he was about to do, Oscar would lean and push hard right into the spot you tried to beat him too, hesitate which freezes you in place then do a quick 90 degree pivot and blow right past you over either shoulder with either hand, coming from a guy who's Kobe Bryant's height but a solid 210-220 his posture and body language is very imposing on film when he's in an "attack" mode. The aggressive body language is Jordanesque. His dominance is starting to make sense to me.

[Marchesk]

Oscar > Lebron

[fpliii]

Been combing through Oscar games slowly but surely, one thing is becoming clear... it's his powerful, and I mean powerful hesitation dribble that made him such a force, he'd hesitate and hammer the ball into the floor and from the defenders perspective you didn't know wtf he was about to do, Oscar would lean and push hard right into the spot you tried to beat him too, hesitate which freezes you in place then do a quick 90 degree pivot and blow right past you over either shoulder with either hand, coming from a guy who's Kobe Bryant's height but a solid 210-220 his posture and body language is very imposing on film when he's in an "attack" mode. The aggressive body language is Jordanesque. His dominance is starting to make sense to me.
:applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

rendering a few minutes of clips you guys have never seen before, i'll post them here shortly to give you an idea of what kind of footage i've unearthed of oscar

[Kvnzhangyay]

Oscar > Lebron

Not even close

[CavaliersFTW]

Not even close
as if you have a clue how oscar played anyways

[CavaliersFTW]

a few minutes of sample clips:

http://youtu.be/4lToxIR7OrQ

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Oscar seems much more natural dribbling with his left hand than Cousy in the vid you posted...i guess it isnt just a rules thing...

[CavaliersFTW]

Oscar seems much more natural dribbling with his left hand than Cousy in the vid you posted...i guess it isnt just a rules thing...
Yes it's still a rules thing. I don't see how you still don't understand carrying and how it changed ball handling in basketball. Oscar's perhaps more willing to switch hands ...but than again his approach was get the ball up the floor slowly and play with fundamentals. Cousy's approach was get the ball up the floor fast with style. Cousy wanted the ball in his right hand to whip a wild pass, like Magic. There's plenty of footage of Cousy dribbling passing and shooting with his left hand to indicate he was completely natural handling the ball with either hand, he just preferred it stay in his right hand.

[LAZERUSS]

Yes it's still a rules thing. I don't see how you still don't understand carrying and how it changed ball handling in basketball. Oscar's perhaps more willing to switch hands ...but than again his approach was get the ball up the floor slowly and play with fundamentals. Cousy's approach was get the ball up the floor fast with style. Cousy wanted the ball in his right hand to whip a wild pass, like Magic. There's plenty of footage of Cousy dribbling passing and shooting with his left hand to indicate he was completely natural handling the ball with either hand, he just preferred it stay in his right hand.

I still remember Chick Hearn, in the Lakers 71-72 season, in a league with Pete Maravich, claiming that Oscar was the most EFFICIENT dribbler in the league.

I have said it before, but you can post footage of White Chocolate Williams spectacular plays, and then post footage of John Stockton's passing, and the average fan would claim that Williams was the better passer.

[fpliii]

a few minutes of sample clips:

http://youtu.be/4lToxIR7OrQ
Good stuff, looking forward to it.

BTW in one of the clips at the end of the video, Embry looks absolutely massive. Must've weighed a ton.

[WillC]

I've seen a few clips now where Embry looks close to 300lbs. Similar frame to a Tractor Traylor or Mike Sweetney type.

Oscar's game was so efficient. Never a wasted move. Thanks for the clips - I can't wait to see the finished product.

[duskovujosevic]

a few minutes of sample clips:

http://youtu.be/4lToxIR7OrQ

great music there, ludovico einaudi :applause:

[jongib369]

Wish I could put my back to the basket and do the things Oscar and Monroe did. Two different styles but doing either or switching between the two would be awesome

[STATUTORY]

Yes it's still a rules thing. I don't see how you still don't understand carrying and how it changed ball handling in basketball. Oscar's perhaps more willing to switch hands ...but than again his approach was get the ball up the floor slowly and play with fundamentals. Cousy's approach was get the ball up the floor fast with style. Cousy wanted the ball in his right hand to whip a wild pass, like Magic. There's plenty of footage of Cousy dribbling passing and shooting with his left hand to indicate he was completely natural handling the ball with either hand, he just preferred it stay in his right hand.

so carrying prevents dribbling with your left :facepalm

[dankok8]

so carrying prevents dribbling with your left :facepalm

No but it really puts a restriction on crossovers and many spin moves that modern dribblers take for granted. Don't forget defenses then were extremely physical as well. That wasn't just hand-checking that was holding, shoving, pushing... A guard really had to protect the ball.

I'm looking forward to this. Oscar is probably the most fundamentally sound guard ever. His hesitation dribble is unreal but also his head fakes and his feel for position. He always had the opponent off-balance. They always thought they had him but he'd always get that shot off. I've seen a lot of Oscar footage and that's kind of the norm. And his mid-range J was money. West always gets credit as a great shooter where Oscar was almost his equal but gets no mention whatsoever.

[Kvnzhangyay]

as if you have a clue how oscar played anyways

You don't either if you actually believe Oscar has a case vs Lebron

[Dro]

You don't either if you actually believe Oscar has a case vs Lebron
Stop, just stop while you're ahead....If you're going to compare across eras, then you have to put Lebron back in that era too when he can't away with carrying/palming the ball...

[jongib369]

https://36.media.tumblr.com/6cc982b4da82a22572ce5e09468386a5/tumblr_n7lxy6IxCK1r31jjho1_500.jpg

Would you have trouble choosing between the two Cavs?

[CavaliersFTW]

https://36.media.tumblr.com/6cc982b4da82a22572ce5e09468386a5/tumblr_n7lxy6IxCK1r31jjho1_500.jpg

Would you have trouble choosing between the two Cavs?
My mind will probably change from time to time, but I'm inclined to pick Oscar most of the time. Depends on what you need. Better ball handling, assertive leadership, and penetration/post up ability at PG? Oscar. Better shooter, defensive player, quiet leadership at the 2-guard spot? West. Also West can play 1-2 at an all-time great level, but Oscar can play 1-3 at an all-time great level. West may be more clutch though. It's like picking a dessert you know, it's not easy to justify one as that much better than another :D

[CavaliersFTW]

some more sample clips http://youtu.be/fjO3hZKgdLc this is mostly early robertson, high school NCAA and early NBA

[fpliii]

some more sample clips http://youtu.be/fjO3hZKgdLc this is mostly early robertson, high school NCAA and early NBA
:applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

:applause:
Offensive versatility, IMO him and Baylor are the two most "complete" players of the 1960's.. Don't know if you've seen enough of him yet to agree but you probably will once you see all the footage together and can compare it to the baylor mix

[fpliii]

Offensive versatility, IMO him and Baylor are the two most "complete" players of the 1960's.. Don't know if you've seen enough of him yet to agree but you probably will once you see all the footage together and can compare it to the baylor mix
Oscar is tough to judge...I've seen very little of him, and read even less since we didn't have an online source to dump Cincy papers (fortunately, one of the other researchers, I believe Matt, helped us out at a ton in putting together his gamelog, which is fleshed out quite a bit).

Oscar is underrated as hell, but Baylor is never even mentioned, when he was put on the same level as the top stars in his day.

Looking forward to your video for sure. Are you gonna go for a scouting type video (like you did with Wilt)? Or more like what you did with Baylor?

[CavaliersFTW]

Oscar is tough to judge...I've seen very little of him, and read even less since we didn't have an online source to dump Cincy papers (fortunately, one of the other researchers, I believe Matt, helped us out at a ton in putting together his gamelog, which is fleshed out quite a bit).

Oscar is underrated as hell, but Baylor is never even mentioned, when he was put on the same level as the top stars in his day.

Looking forward to your video for sure. Are you gonna go for a scouting type video (like you did with Wilt)? Or more like what you did with Baylor?
More like Baylor. He'll be easy to judge when the video is done. IMO at least.

[fpliii]

More like Baylor. He'll be easy to judge when the video is done. IMO at least.
That makes more sense IMO. There's probably equally as much passing and scoring for him, so it would be impossible to categorize IMO.

BTW, from the footage you've seen, how would you rate Oscar defensively?

[CavaliersFTW]

That makes more sense IMO. There's probably equally as much passing and scoring for him, so it would be impossible to categorize IMO.

BTW, from the footage you've seen, how would you rate Oscar defensively?
No better or worse relatively speaking than Baylor, from what I can tell. Not a stand out like Jerry West or Walt Frazier, but no bum either. He was asked to guard the "tougher" offensive players more often in Milwaukee than in Cincinnati, so he had a role shift on that end when switching organizations.

[fpliii]

No better or worse relatively speaking than Baylor, from what I can tell. Not a stand out like Jerry West or Walt Frazier, but no bum either. He was asked to guard the "tougher" offensive players more often in Milwaukee than in Cincinnati, so he had a role shift on that end when switching organizations.
Good shit. Could he defend 1-3? Were there any guys he had a problem with in particular?

[CavaliersFTW]

Good shit. Could he defend 1-3? Were there any guys he had a problem with in particular?
Again not a stand-out on that end, but he could quite comfortably guard 1-3, he was "6-6" (6-4 3/4 w/o shoes) 205-220lbs as a pro... that's an industrial strength MJ or Kobe. And as you can see at least in that footage of him when he was younger he was very mobile and quick just like MJ and Kobe.

[fpliii]

Again not a stand-out on that end, but he could quite comfortably guard 1-3, he was "6-6" (6-4 3/4 w/o shoes) 205-220lbs as a pro... that's an industrial strength MJ or Kobe. And as you can see at least in that footage of him when he was younger he was very mobile and quick just like MJ and Kobe.
Thanks for the info!

[WillC]

No better or worse relatively speaking than Baylor, from what I can tell. Not a stand out like Jerry West or Walt Frazier, but no bum either. He was asked to guard the "tougher" offensive players more often in Milwaukee than in Cincinnati, so he had a role shift on that end when switching organizations.

This sounds about right. I've read conflicting verdicts of Oscar's defensive ability. Some very positive. Others less so.

I think his offensive ability clouded people's perception of his defensive ability which, from what I can tell, was very good.

[LAZERUSS]

West vs. Oscar would be an interesting topic. I certainly haven't researched their H2H's, but bb-reference does have their scoring numbers from 63-64 on...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=roberos01&p2=westje01

[dankok8]

^^

Actually I researched the Oscar-West H2H's and here is my earlier post:


I have decided to compile the never before seen Oscar Robertson vs. Jerry West Head-to-Head data. It's interesting because the two men were no doubt the greatest guards in the 60's. They were known to guard each other during games and Jerry West said that as a young player Oscar was the guy he looked up to. And that Oscar is the player he tried to get better than and saw as his main competitor because he was the best guard he ever faced. I've excluded the numbers where either player was injured and DNP. I tried to indicate beside the data in parentheses when the player did dress but was hobbled. West generally played through more nagging injuries than the Big O. Without further ado here is the data for every season.

* indicates that the rpg/apg numbers are missing for some games in that season



1960-1961

Oscar: 32.9 ppg, 9.8 rpg*, 11.9 apg*

West: 18.7 ppg, 6.5 rpg*, 5.0 apg*

Royals win 8-5.



1961-1962

Oscar: 31.4 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 10.2 apg

West: 34.9 ppg, 5.0 rpg*, 7.0 apg*

Lakers win 7-4.



1962-1963

Oscar: 31.2 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 11.6 apg*

West: 30.0 ppg, 5.3 rpg*, 6.0 apg*

Lakers win 5-1.



1963-1964

Oscar: 30.7 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 8.6 apg on 44.2 %FG

West: 28.4 ppg, 8.0 rpg*, 7.0 apg*

Lakers win 4-3.



1964-1965

Oscar: 35.6 ppg, 7.9 rpg*, 11.4 apg*

West: 31.7 ppg, 6.5 rpg*, 5.2 apg*

Royals win 5-4.



1965-1966

Oscar: 35.7 ppg, 6.9 rpg*, 11.1 apg*

West: 35.4 ppg, 6.6 apg*, 8.0 apg*

Lakers win 6-4.



1966-1967

Oscar: 32.8 ppg, 8.5 rpg*, 10.8 apg*

West: 29.7 ppg, 6.2 rpg*, 6.6 apg*

Lakers win 5-2.



1967-1968

Oscar: 33.0 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 6.0 apg on 29.7 %FG (injured much of the season)

West: 22.0 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 1.0 apg on 72.7 %FG (injured much of the season)

Lakers win 1-0.



1968-1969

Oscar: 23.8 ppg, 4.7 rpg*, 9.3 apg*

West: 26.0 ppg, 3.7 rpg*, 8.7 apg*

Lakers win 4-2.



1969-1970

Oscar: 20.0 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 7.3 apg on 39.3 %FG

West: 30.0 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 8.0 apg on 48.7 %FG

Lakers win 4-2.



1970-1971

Oscar: 15.0 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 7.3 apg on 52.2 %FG

West: 15.0 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 8.3 apg on 31.6 %FG (played injured for many games and missed the playoffs)

Bucks win 4-1.



1971-1972

Oscar: 15.5 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 6.8 apg on 39.1 %FG

West: 26.8 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 9.5 apg on 44.4 %FG

Lakers win 3-1.



1972 Western Division Finals

Oscar: 9.0 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.7 apg on 36.1 %FG (pulled abdominal muscle)

West: 21.8 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 8.3 apg on 34.8 %FG

Lakers win 4-2.



1972-1973

Oscar: 12.8 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 5.6 apg on 46.4 %FG (many minor injuries)

West: 17.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 7.0 apg on 42.0 %FG (leg injuries)

Bucks win 3-2.



1973-1974

Oscar: 8.0 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 7.0 apg on 25.0 %FG (nagging shoulder and back injuries)

West: 18.0 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 4.0 apg on 38.1 %FG (pulled abdominal muscle)

Lakers win 1-0.





Cumulative Regular Season Head-to-Head Numbers (1960-1961 through 1973-1974)

Oscar: 28.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg*, 9.7 apg*

West: 27.7 ppg, 5.3 rpg*, 7.2 apg*


Cumulative Playoff Head-to-Head Numbers (1972 WDF)

Oscar: 9.0 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.7 apg on 36.1 %FG (pulled abdominal muscle)

West: 21.8 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 8.3 apg on 34.8 %FG


The two men have met 91 times in those 14 seasons with West's Lakers having a 52-39 edge in wins over Oscar's Royals and Bucks teams. In their one encounter in the postseason in 1972 WDF West's Lakers beat Oscar's Bucks 4-2 in one of the all-time great series.

Oscar hit the ground running much faster than West and really dominated through the early seasons but by 1965 West had caught up and from 1968 onwards Jerry was the greater player although perhaps never as great as peak Oscar?

[WillC]

Excellent research/analysis, dankok8.

As expected, Oscar was the better of the two for the first half of their careers but West had better longevity and seemed to improve as each year went by, much like a vintage wine.

I find it nearly impossible to separate the two, although I do think Oscar's team success would be a lot better if he'd had Baylor by his side. Instead, he had Lucas, Twyman, Embry... very good but not great players. Obviously I'm talking about his early and peak years, before he teamed up with Kareem.

[LAZERUSS]

^^

Actually I researched the Oscar-West H2H's and here is my earlier post:

:applause:

It's too bad that we don't have more of their FG%'s, but I suspect that Oscar was probably the more efficient scorer, as well...at least in the first halves of their careers.

I was taking a look at some of Oscar's known FG% games, and he was truly a remarkable scorer. Those that scoff at Robertson's triple-double season, and other near triple-double seasons, need to realize that he was scoring without taking an extraordinary number of FGAs. He was averaging around 30 ppg on about 21-22 FGAs per game. In his '63 season, he averaged 28.3 ppg on 19.9 FGAs.

Peak-for-peak, the two were very close, although I would give Oscar a slight edge in the regular season, and West a solid edge in the post-season.