Shaq/Chuck call Dirk a top 25 player all-time, GOAT Euro, GOAT big man shooter

[fpliii]

Do you agree with these statements?

[mr.big35]

i agree with them

[fpliii]

i agree with them
I think I do as well.

[T_L_P]

Agreed with all of them.

[AnaheimLakers24]

Iron Leg Jumper :bowdown:

[Jacks3]

Top 25? More like top 15.

[STATUTORY]

last two hard to dispute, i can see first one being debatable depending on your prejudices towards the pre magic/bird era of nba

[pauk]

Yea, except i dont know how they think about that GOAT euro part, i mean yes he is the GOAT NBA Euro, he was better/more accomplished than any euro in the NBA, but he is not the most accomplished player ever in Europe and neither is he the most talanted/skilled/dominant Euro player ever, that was prime Drazen Petrovic & Arvydas Sabonis.

[fpliii]

Iron Leg Jumper :bowdown:
:applause:

[Bosnian Sajo]

Yea, except i dont know how they think about that GOAT euro part, i mean yes he is the GOAT NBA Euro, he was better/more accomplished than any euro in the NBA, but he is not the most accomplished player ever in Europe and neither is he the most talanted/skilled/dominant Euro player ever, that was prime Drazen Petrovic & Arvydas Sabonis.

Drazen was in his prime right before he died, aka with the Nets. You're contradicting yourself here. IMO Dirk easily > Petrovic, coming from a fan of the Croatian. Sabonis I cannot really comment on.

[moe94]

Top 25? More like top 15.

Jordan
KAJ
Wilt
Russell
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Dream
Kobe
LeBron
Oscar
Malone
Moses
Dr. J
West

16 off the top of the head in no particular order. Who does he have a case over? :kobe:

[plowking]

Dirk is a great player, and more than likely top 20, but he wasn't better than Sabonis, so they need to cut the GOAT Euro shit, since they really don't have a clue about basketball out there.

[plowking]

Jordan
KAJ
Wilt
Russell
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Dream
Kobe
LeBron
Oscar
Malone
Moses
Dr. J
West

16 off the top of the head in no particular order. Who does he have a case over? :kobe:

I still want to know how people rank Dirk over Wade too. Wade has more championships and a higher peak, yet people love putting Dirk ahead. Guess that's what happens when you're as hated as the Heat are.

[ProfessorMurder]

Definitely top 30 (probably 25 but I don't really have a list), top 2 GOAT Euro (Sabonis toss up), and GOAT big man shooter.

[houston]

yup he is

[SHAQisGOAT]

All true except for maybe GOAT euro but at least GOAT euro career in the NBA.

[DMAVS41]

Jordan
KAJ
Wilt
Russell
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Dream
Kobe
LeBron
Oscar
Malone
Moses
Dr. J
West

16 off the top of the head in no particular order. Who does he have a case over? :kobe:


On that list?

Certainly one could argue Dirk over Moses, Karl Malone, and Dr. J actually....

[HOoopCityJones]

Dream is not above Kobe, Duncan is debatable and even then.

I knew your list would be on some Lebron compensation shit Moe.

Dirk is also above Moses, Malone and Dr. J

[HOoopCityJones]

"I think there's a certain criteria where you can say pretty much for certain that he's one of the top 12 all time," Carlisle said in an interview that will air Thursday night on the "NBA on ESPN Radio" pregame show.

"And that is, there's only been 12 guys that have been 10-time All-Stars, [NBA] Finals MVP and league MVP. So I think that firmly puts him in the top 12. And then getting into the top 10 in all-time scoring validates that even more." Rick Carlilisle

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/_/id/10763704/dirk-nowitzki-dallas-mavericks-one-nba-12-all-greatest-coach-says

[SHAQisGOAT]

On that list?

Certainly one could argue Dirk over Moses, Karl Malone, and Dr. J actually....

Dr J? If you completely neglect his career before the NBA (and even so) yea you can make that case. I personally have Doc on my top15 and not Dirk (and I don't give the same credit to the ABA but still give it, especially to his 1976 Finals).

Karl Malone? Yea you could probably do that, I definitely have Karl higher though (and lower than Doc).

Moses Malone? I really don't think you can make that argument. Moses is pretty close to the top10. Moses constantly gets underrated af though, and that dude sorta like stopped caring after 1983, but still had plenty of really good years and before he was a beast.

[DMAVS41]

Dr J? If you completely neglect his career before the NBA (and even so) yea you can make that case. I personally have Doc on my top15 and not Dirk (and I don't give the same credit to the ABA but still give it, especially to his 1976 Finals).

Karl Malone? Yea you could probably do that, I definitely have Karl higher though (and lower than Doc).

Moses Malone? I really don't think you can make that argument. Moses is pretty close to the top10. Moses constantly gets underrated af though, and that dude sorta like stopped caring after 1983, but still had plenty of really good years and before he was a beast.


Okay?

Sounds like you over-rate Karl a bit, but essentially you agree there.

I don't want to get into a back and forth on this.

Just agree to disagree. I have Dirk over Karl and Dr. J on my list...Moses higher at this point, but it's close enough...

[SHAQisGOAT]

Just some "reminders" about Moses Malone:

>3x MVP

>One time champion and FMVP

>Led a team that had no business being there, to the Finals (not when he won of course)

>8 all-nba teams, 4 1st

>2 all-defensive team selections, once 1st

>12x all-star

>18 or so NBA seasons

>5th all-time in rebounds, only NBA

>7th all-time in points

>Had one of the greatest peak/primes, when he was at the top in terms of points and rebounds, when he was doing major stuff in the post-season, when he was playing some really good D.. Playing like a beast, go know about what he was doing

>Still plenty of really good seasons after he stopped caring (most likely), and decline, after 1983

>Played in great bigmen era

>Couple of solid ABA seasons

.............

How you gonna put Dirk above that??? Explain please :rolleyes:

So ****ing underrated :facepalm

[SHAQisGOAT]

Okay?

Sounds like you over-rate Karl a bit, but essentially you agree there.

I don't want to get into a back and forth on this.

Just agree to disagree. I have Dirk over Karl and Dr. J on my list...Moses higher at this point, but it's close enough...

Karl? Most people have him higher than I do, I don't even have him on my top15 so I don't know how that's overrating him.

Again, Moses is underrated like crazy, and you're doing the same, look at my post above, go look at all that he did throughout his career, at what he was doing at his best, has major longevity too despite declining when he "shouldn't", take everything into acount. Again, dude's very close to top10.

[moe94]

I still want to know how people rank Dirk over Wade too. Wade has more championships and a higher peak, yet people love putting Dirk ahead. Guess that's what happens when you're as hated as the Heat are.

Dirk has no case over Wade. The same people pushing that nonsense will argue to death that Dirk was a better player than Garnett. :coleman:


Dream is not above Kobe, Duncan is debatable and even then.

I knew your list would be on some Lebron compensation shit Moe.

Dirk is also above Moses, Malone and Dr. J

It's not in order, bruh

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Dirk has no case over Wade.

:biggums:

[DMAVS41]

Just some "reminders" about Moses Malone:

>3x MVP

>One time champion and FMVP

>Led a team that had no business being there, to the Finals (not when he won of course)

>8 all-nba teams, 4 1st

>2 all-defensive team selections, once 1st

>12x all-star

>18 or so NBA seasons

>5th all-time in rebounds, only NBA

>7th all-time in points

>Had one of the greatest peak/primes, when he was at the top in terms of points and rebounds, when he was doing major stuff in the post-season, when he was playing some really good D.. Playing like a beast, go know about what he was doing

>Still plenty of really good seasons after he stopped caring (most likely), and decline, after 1983

>Played in great bigmen era

>Couple of solid ABA seasons

.............

How you gonna put Dirk above that??? Explain please :rolleyes:

So ****ing underrated :facepalm


Yes...lets' roll eyes

I could list off a bunch of things like the above about Dirk...

But you act like I'm saying Dirk was definitively better...I already said I rank Moses over Dirk.

But I think they are close...and actually prefer Dirk's game over his.


Some reminders about Dirk;

Led his team to 11 straight 50 win seasons (only 4 franchises have ever done this)

One of 4 players in the history of the NBA playoffs to average over 25/10 for their careers

Won a title without an all nba or all star teammate and didn't have half the help Moses did

10th best ortg in playoff history

10th best ft shooter in playoff history

10th in points all time

16th in playoff points all time

12x all star

12x all nba

led the worst roster in nba history to win 67 or more wins

mvp and fmvp

led a team that was expected to lose in the 2nd round to the finals

26th most efficient playoff scorer in NBA history

11th all time in defensive rebounds in the playoffs

23rd all time in total rebounds in the playoffs

Dirk was a better playoff performer.
Dirk didn't "give up" or "stop trying"...late in his career

I could go on...it's close between them in GOAT rankings at this point.

I'm not under-rating Moses...he just wasn't definitively better than Dirk throughout their careers.

[mr.big35]

Dirk has no case over Wade. The same people pushing that nonsense will argue to death that Dirk was a better player than Garnett. :coleman:



It's not in order, bruh

its only dirk stans like dmavs41 who thinks dirk is top 5 pf ever and miles better than kg.

[Cone]

dirk > wade and kg. easily.

dirk top 3 pf. easily.

dirk top 20. easily

if you disagree, you dont know shit. its that simple

[moe94]

dirk > wade and kg. easily.

dirk top 3 pf. easily.

dirk top 20. easily

if you disagree, you dont know shit. its that simple

Peak Wade and peak KG > peak Dirk

Dirk has one ring, so where is this delusion stemming from? His 50 win seasons? :oldlol:

[mr.big35]

dirk > wade and kg. easily.

dirk top 3 pf. easily.

dirk top 20. easily

if you disagree, you dont know shit. its that simple

explain to me how is he better than kg.

[mr.big35]

Peak Wade and peak KG > peak Dirk

Dirk has one ring, so where is this delusion stemming from? His 50 win seasons? :oldlol:

KG gets massive underrated ISH its not even funny

[Cone]

Peak Wade and peak KG > peak Dirk

Dirk has one ring, so where is this delusion stemming from? His 50 win seasons? :oldlol:

lets see dirks career when he plays with multiple HoFers in their primes. GTFO

kg has one ring, so where is this delusion stemming from? his multiple missed playoff appearances in his prime?

kg and wade must be the most overrated players ever

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Dirk is a great player, and more than likely top 20, but he wasn't better than Sabonis, so they need to cut the GOAT Euro shit, since they really don't have a clue about basketball out there.
great post
Sabonis was the best euro ever. if he didnt get injured so much and came over earlier in his career, which he wasnt allowed to, he would have had a top 5 GOAT career.
He was an absolute monster and had it ALL:applause:

[STATUTORY]

KG gets massive underrated ISH its not even funny
according to posters here, everyone is underrated, there's only so few spots in the top 15. 15 to be exact....

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Here we go with the "rangz" argument :oldlol:


Peak Wade and peak KG > peak Dirk

Dirk has one ring, so where is this delusion stemming from? His 50 win seasons? :oldlol:

Dont act like that isnt debatable, though..

Prime Dirk > Prime Wade btw. More points, rebounds, and impact offensively (his shooting alone makes him a constant threat).

[mr.big35]

Here we go with the "rangz" argument :oldlol:



Dont act like that isnt debatable, though..

Prime Dirk > Prime Wade btw. More points, rebounds, and impact offensively (his shooting alone makes him more consistent).

what about kg someone mentioned that dirk is better

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

what about kg someone mentioned that dirk is better

Peak KG is a top 10 player, imo.. better than Wade AND Dirk, who get fairly rated here.

[moe94]

kuniva, you already know we're here to support our favorite players while throwing around hyperbole and calling anyone with contradictory stances the idiots that they are.

Also rangz

[SHAQisGOAT]

Yes...lets' roll eyes

I could list off a bunch of things like the above about Dirk...

But you act like I'm saying Dirk was definitively better...I already said I rank Moses over Dirk.

But I think they are close...and actually prefer Dirk's game over his.


Some reminders about Dirk;

Led his team to 11 straight 50 win seasons (only 4 franchises have ever done this)

One of 4 players in the history of the NBA playoffs to average over 25/10 for their careers

Won a title without an all nba or all star teammate and didn't have half the help Moses did

10th best ortg in playoff history

10th best ft shooter in playoff history

10th in points all time

16th in playoff points all time

12x all star

12x all nba


Dirk was a better playoff performer.
Dirk didn't "give up" or "stop trying"...late in his career

I could go on...it's close between them in GOAT rankings at this point.

I'm not under-rating Moses...he just wasn't definitively better than Dirk throughout their careers.


Moses has 2 more MVP's and you can't say that he didn't have competition for those, or even competition at center. Know how many players have more than 2 MVP's, all-time? And that dude was never flashy or really likeable, plus didn't play with major hype going around, so can't "hold it against him".
Same number of FMVP. Same # of all-nba 1st, and at the C spot.

Moses is still higher in total points and like I've said, he's 5th in total rebounds all-time, which is major.

At their best, Moses was the flat-out better rebounder, up with him as a scorer, easily better defensive impact... Dirk's the better shooter and I'd even give him the edge as a scorer, and he was less of a blackhole.. It's close, still I'd take Moses' peak, overall considering it all, even intangibles.

In the 1981 Playoffs, he led a team to the Finals, with his best teammates being Robert Reid, Billy Paultz and Calvin Murphy who got injured along the way. Just playing like a beast, going h2h against Kareem, Parish and Sam Lacey. You'll talk about Dirk's help but what do you say to that? :lol And yea they didn't win but so didn't Dirk in 2006 with much better help.. When Moses got the proper help, they just completely destroyed the whole league.

Like I've said, they steam-rolled through the whole league in 1983, go look at what Moses did that year, look at the impact on the team, the numbers, advanced stats, both rs and ps, everything.. He got the help and was good for it.

After he stopped trying, let's say, he was still good for some 24/12 seasons, even 3rd in MVP voting, all-nba 1st, couple of solid playoff runs... That's a considerable dent in his career, I won't argue against it but he still has really good longevity.

Dirk the better playoff performer in terms of career? Yea, also because of that above, but in terms of peak/prime? I wouldn't say so.

Love Dirk, and I rank pretty highly but Moses is pretty close to the top10 and Dirk's not that close.

[DMAVS41]

Moses has 2 more MVP's and you can't say that he didn't have competition for those, or even competition at center. Know how many players have more than 2 MVP's, all-time? And that dude was never flashy or really likeable, plus didn't play with major hype going around, so can't "hold it against him".
Same number of FMVP. Same # of all-nba 1st, and at the C spot.

Moses is still higher in total points and like I've said, he's 5th in total rebounds all-time, which is major.

At their best, Moses was the flat-out better rebounder, up with him as a scorer, easily better defensive impact... Dirk's the better shooter and I'd even give him the edge as a scorer, and he was less of a blackhole.. It's close, still I'd take Moses' peak, overall considering it all, even intangibles.

In the 1981 Playoffs, he led a team to the Finals, with his best teammates being Robert Reid, Billy Paultz and Calvin Murphy who got injured along the way. Just playing like a beast, going h2h against Kareem, Parish and Sam Lacey. You'll talk about Dirk's help but what do you say to that? :lol And yea they didn't win but so didn't Dirk in 2006 with much better help.. When Moses got the proper help, they just completely destroyed the whole league.

Like I've said, they steam-rolled through the whole league in 1983, go look at what Moses did that year, look at the impact on the team, the numbers, advanced stats, both rs and ps, everything.. He got the help and was good for it.

After he stopped trying, let's say, he was still good for some 24/12 seasons, even 3rd in MVP voting, all-nba 1st, couple of solid playoff runs... That's a considerable dent in his career, I won't argue against it but he still has really good longevity.

Dirk the better playoff performer in terms of career? Yea, also because of that above, but in terms of peak/prime? I wouldn't say so.

Love Dirk, and I rank pretty highly but Moses is pretty close to the top10 and Dirk's not that close.


Please stop acting like I'm hating on Moses...I'm not.

Let me guess...it's more important that Moses is the 7th all time scorer in the regular season while Dirk is 10th (not done yet buddy)...than it is that Dirk is the 16th leader in playoff points while Moses is 46th...right?

Or that it doesn't mean anything that Dirk is 23rd in playoff rebounds and Moses is 27th...right?

Only what you list and think matters.

We could go back and forth on this all day.

You asked my case...and I listed some random Dirk accomplishments that are right in line with Moses. That isn't even really my case...I just showed you I could list a bunch of shit for Dirk as well.

I can go tit for tat on this shit....when Dirk got proper help he led a 20 to 1 underdog to win the title. Had the most clutch playoff run since early 90's MJ. Led easily the worst roster to ever win 67 or more games...

On and on we go. Two all time greats somewhere in the same range. Really doesn't matter to me where you put them. I myself rank Moses over Dirk...but that has a lot to do with respecting an all timer and letting Dirk's career play out.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

kuniva, you already know we're here to support our favorite players while throwing around hyperbole and calling anyone with contradictory stances the idiots that they are.

Also rangz

No doubt.. I'm just saying, there is a fine line between hyperbole and complete "stanning". Lets keep it 100 here fellas :cheers:

[Artillery]

Yea, except i dont know how they think about that GOAT euro part, i mean yes he is the GOAT NBA Euro, he was better/more accomplished than any euro in the NBA, but he is not the most accomplished player ever in Europe and neither is he the most talanted/skilled/dominant Euro player ever, that was prime Drazen Petrovic & Arvydas Sabonis.

:oldlol: Sabonis myth lives on.

[Round Mound]

Among PFs. Where Do You Rank Him?

1-Tim Duncan
2-Charles Barkley
3-Karl Malone
4-Bob Pettit
5-Kevin McHale
6-Kevin Garnett
7-Elvin Hayes
8-Dirk Nowitsky
9-Chris Webber
10-Ralph Sampson

*I would Put Him Right Under Elvin Hayes a Top 7 GOAT PF

[Mass Debator]

Dirk has made no all-defensive team. :bowdown:
Averages 22.5 / 8.1 / 2.6 on 47% :bowdown:
1x NBA Champion :bowdown:

Wade averages 24.3 / 6.0 / 5.0 on 49% :facepalm
3x NBA Champion :facepalm
Wade only averages 1 block per game to Dirk's 0.9 :facepalm

Dirk is definitely a top 25 like Shaq and Chuck said. :applause:

[EnoughSaid]

Dwyane Wade:
3x NBA Champion
NBA Finals MVP
10x All-Star
2x All NBA First (Should be 3 a/ 2011 but the media loves Kobe)
2x All NBA Second Defensive
Scoring Champion

- Career averages of 24/6/5 on 50%.
- Better peak than Dirk
- One of the greatest individual performances in Finals history.

Other than the MVP and a few more consistent seasons, how is Dirk better?

[pauk]

Drazen was in his prime right before he died, aka with the Nets. You're contradicting yourself here. IMO Dirk easily > Petrovic, coming from a fan of the Croatian. Sabonis I cannot really comment on.

Drazen was not as fortunate to come into the NBA as a 19-20 year old as Dirk, with almost immediate given starting spot / minutes hence rapid transition & development.... if he did he would have been around a 30-5-5 player, Drazen was THAT good, trust me.... even though NBA teams were begging for him in the 80s, he refused because he refused to not be taken seriously (no starting spot, no minutes), he did his thing instead, became the greatest european player of all time and then decided to try this NBA thing out anyways even though it was a bit late & he would get like 7 mpg & have prime Drexler filling out the starting spot for years.... he went to NJN instead, they eventually gave him a chance, he averaged 22-3-4 shooting 52-45-87 on only 16 FGA at age 28, he was just getting ready ............. Then what happened?

You have CLEARLY not seen Drazen or Sabonis in their prime (with that i mean, a game/team/system that allows you to SEE them in their full offensive freedom at their very best), i beg you or anybody here to watch some Drazen before the NBA.... he was like Jerry West with even better jumpshot, quite possibly the greatest shooter i ever seen with that kindof scoring arsenal he had (Reggie Miller certainly doesnt disagree)... and Sabonis was a 7'4" guy who ran like a gazelle and could shoot jumpshots just like Dirk Nowitzki, he could also handle the ball, play amazing defense and had the court vision/passing better than any Center i ever seen.... the Sabonis you saw in the NBA was absolutely nothing, just an old injury proned guy with extra weight no minutes & quick departure....

Both of them would have been better NBA players than Dirk if they had and/or chose the same circumstances as Dirk with the NBA, you better believe it.

[SexSymbol]

Sabonis is the best euro player ever. I still see him every other day in his bball school nailing 3 after 3.
Dirk> Malone, KG, that's for sure doe.

[SexSymbol]

Drazen was not as fortunate to come into the NBA as a 19-20 year old as Dirk, with almost immediate given starting spot / minutes hence rapid transition & development.... if he did he would have been around a 30-5-5 player, Drazen was THAT good, trust me.... even though NBA teams were begging for him in the 80s, he refused because he refused to not be taken seriously (no starting spot, no minutes), he did his thing instead, became the greatest european player of all time and then decided to try this NBA thing out anyways even though it was a bit late & he would get like 7 mpg & have prime Drexler filling out the starting spot for years.... he went to NJN instead, they eventually gave him a chance, he averaged 22-3-4 shooting 52-45-87 on only 16 FGA at age 28, he was just getting ready ............. Then what happened?

You have CLEARLY not seen Drazen or Sabonis in their prime (with that i mean, a game/team/system that allows you to SEE them in their full offensive freedom at their very best), i beg you or anybody here to watch some Drazen before the NBA.... he was like Jerry West with even better jumpshot, quite possibly the greatest shooter i ever seen with that kindof scoring arsenal he had (Reggie Miller certainly doesnt disagree)... and Sabonis was a 7'4" guy who ran like a gazelle and could shoot jumpshots just like Dirk Nowitzki, he could also handle the ball, play amazing defense and had the court vision/passing better than any Center i ever seen.... the Sabonis you saw in the NBA was absolutely nothing, just an old injury proned guy with extra weight no minutes & quick departure....

Both of them would have been better NBA players than Dirk if they had and/or chose the same circumstances as Dirk with the NBA, you better believe it.
From this post I can state that Drazen is immensely overrated because of his death.
He was a great shooter with terrible defense and terrible all-around play.
You say that he could've been 30-5-5 player which is completely idiotic, yet in his peak years he only managed to average 22-3-4.

[LAZERUSS]

IMHO, Dirk's ranking could be anywhere from around 17-25. And I'm not sure it is fair to claim that Duncan has been the greatest PF of all-time, when clearly Duncan has been playing center, especially on defense, for much of his career.

Dirk, KG, Barkley, K. Malone, even McHale (who is very under-rated here), as well as Jerry Lucas and Pettit...were all exceptional PF's. I wouldn't have a problem with any order on any of them.

[HurricaneKid]

Drazen was not as fortunate to come into the NBA as a 19-20 year old as Dirk, with almost immediate given starting spot / minutes hence rapid transition & development.... if he did he would have been around a 30-5-5 player, Drazen was THAT good, trust me.... even though NBA teams were begging for him in the 80s, he refused because he refused to not be taken seriously (no starting spot, no minutes), he did his thing instead, became the greatest european player of all time and then decided to try this NBA thing out anyways even though it was a bit late & he would get like 7 mpg & have prime Drexler filling out the starting spot for years.... he went to NJN instead, they eventually gave him a chance, he averaged 22-3-4 shooting 52-45-87 on only 16 FGA at age 28, he was just getting ready ............. Then what happened?

You have CLEARLY not seen Drazen or Sabonis in their prime (with that i mean, a game/team/system that allows you to SEE them in their full offensive freedom at their very best), i beg you or anybody here to watch some Drazen before the NBA.... he was like Jerry West with even better jumpshot, quite possibly the greatest shooter i ever seen with that kindof scoring arsenal he had (Reggie Miller certainly doesnt disagree)... and Sabonis was a 7'4" guy who ran like a gazelle and could shoot jumpshots just like Dirk Nowitzki, he could also handle the ball, play amazing defense and had the court vision/passing better than any Center i ever seen.... the Sabonis you saw in the NBA was absolutely nothing, just an old injury proned guy with extra weight no minutes & quick departure....

Both of them would have been better NBA players than Dirk if they had and/or chose the same circumstances as Dirk with the NBA, you better believe it.

Ummm... Petrovic was a great shooter but that where his game ended. He would fit in great in the current NBA as a sniper but would never be the first option on an elite team.

Sabonis ran like a gazelle? What, after it had been shot in the hind quarter? Did you even see Sabonis? He was a genius when it came to passing lanes, but he had the speed of frozen molasses dripping down a tree.

Neither are even arguable as being superior to Dirk. You do yourself disservice to even suggest so.

Look up long term +/-. Dirk's impact on the success of that franchise is enormous.

[D.J.]

With Drazen, it's hard to say what could have been. He entered his prime rather quickly and it ended even quicker. My favorite moment of him wasn't even with him as a Net. It was in the gold medal game in '92 lighting it up against Jordan and the Americans. Croatia obviously had no shot in the end, but Croatia held a 2nd quarter lead. Michael Jordan of all people praised Drazen. To get Michael Jordan's praise of all people is saying something.

As far as Dirk, he's MAYBE a top 5 PF. Duncan, Barkley, Malone, and Garnett are all better. You could also argue McHale over Dirk.

[LAZERUSS]

Ummm... Petrovic was a great shooter but that where his game ended. He would fit in great in the current NBA as a sniper but would never be the first option on an elite team.

Sabonis ran like a gazelle? What, after it had been shot in the hind quarter? Did you even see Sabonis? He was a genius when it came to passing lanes, but he had the speed of frozen molasses dripping down a tree.

Neither are even arguable as being superior to Dirk. You do yourself disservice to even suggest so.

Look up long term +/-. Dirk's impact on the success of that franchise is enormous.

Sabonis was seldom healthy in his PRIME. He is among the most over-rated players on this board. And I get so sick-and-tired of the "he outplayed Robinson in the '88 Olympics" crap. He certainly didn't outplay Robinson the '88 Olympics, nor the '86 World Championships. And Robinson went on to become a much better player, while Sabonis, who was seldom healthy in his prime, would fight injuries his entire career.

[houston]

Dirk ain't better than K.G. or Moses Malone.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Drazen was not as fortunate to come into the NBA as a 19-20 year old as Dirk, with almost immediate given starting spot / minutes hence rapid transition & development.... if he did he would have been around a 30-5-5 player, Drazen was THAT good, trust me.... even though NBA teams were begging for him in the 80s, he refused because he refused to not be taken seriously (no starting spot, no minutes), he did his thing instead, became the greatest european player of all time and then decided to try this NBA thing out anyways even though it was a bit late & he would get like 7 mpg & have prime Drexler filling out the starting spot for years.... he went to NJN instead, they eventually gave him a chance, he averaged 22-3-4 shooting 52-45-87 on only 16 FGA at age 28, he was just getting ready ............. Then what happened?

You have CLEARLY not seen Drazen or Sabonis in their prime (with that i mean, a game/team/system that allows you to SEE them in their full offensive freedom at their very best), i beg you or anybody here to watch some Drazen before the NBA.... he was like Jerry West with even better jumpshot, quite possibly the greatest shooter i ever seen with that kindof scoring arsenal he had (Reggie Miller certainly doesnt disagree)... and Sabonis was a 7'4" guy who ran like a gazelle and could shoot jumpshots just like Dirk Nowitzki, he could also handle the ball, play amazing defense and had the court vision/passing better than any Center i ever seen.... the Sabonis you saw in the NBA was absolutely nothing, just an old injury proned guy with extra weight no minutes & quick departure....

Both of them would have been better NBA players than Dirk if they had and/or chose the same circumstances as Dirk with the NBA, you better believe it.

Euro bs. Drazen was a great player. One of the greatest shooters ever.. he's not Dirk Nowitzki though, a far better all-around player. 30-5-5 and Jerry west with an even better jumpshot??? :roll: GTFO

[Milbuck]

:oldlol: Sabonis myth lives on.
I don't agree with Pauk's statement, but the Sabonis myth? If you saw him at all before his injury plagued days and older years with the Blazers, you wouldn't be saying that.

[bballnoob1192]

Dream is not above Kobe, Duncan is debatable and even then.

I knew your list would be on some Lebron compensation shit Moe.

Dirk is also above Moses, Malone and Dr. J
i dont understand why people put hakeem over kobe its mind boggling. IMO hakeem is even knocked off the top 10 for lebron.

[aburre21]

Dwyane Wade:
3x NBA Champion
NBA Finals MVP
10x All-Star
2x All NBA First (Should be 3 a/ 2011 but the media loves Kobe)
2x All NBA Second Defensive
Scoring Champion

- Career averages of 24/6/5 on 50%.
- Better peak than Dirk
- One of the greatest individual performances in Finals history.

Other than the MVP and a few more consistent seasons, how is Dirk better?


he's not! dude is quickly becoming overrated ever since that championship...

[ZoPunde]

GOAT Euro

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/legends/drazen-petrovic/drazen-petrovic-300c.jpg

[Bosnian Sajo]

Drazen was not as fortunate to come into the NBA as a 19-20 year old as Dirk, with almost immediate given starting spot / minutes hence rapid transition & development.... if he did he would have been around a 30-5-5 player, Drazen was THAT good, trust me.... even though NBA teams were begging for him in the 80s, he refused because he refused to not be taken seriously (no starting spot, no minutes), he did his thing instead, became the greatest european player of all time and then decided to try this NBA thing out anyways even though it was a bit late & he would get like 7 mpg & have prime Drexler filling out the starting spot for years.... he went to NJN instead, they eventually gave him a chance, he averaged 22-3-4 shooting 52-45-87 on only 16 FGA at age 28, he was just getting ready ............. Then what happened?

You have CLEARLY not seen Drazen or Sabonis in their prime (with that i mean, a game/team/system that allows you to SEE them in their full offensive freedom at their very best), i beg you or anybody here to watch some Drazen before the NBA.... he was like Jerry West with even better jumpshot, quite possibly the greatest shooter i ever seen with that kindof scoring arsenal he had (Reggie Miller certainly doesnt disagree)... and Sabonis was a 7'4" guy who ran like a gazelle and could shoot jumpshots just like Dirk Nowitzki, he could also handle the ball, play amazing defense and had the court vision/passing better than any Center i ever seen.... the Sabonis you saw in the NBA was absolutely nothing, just an old injury proned guy with extra weight no minutes & quick departure....

Both of them would have been better NBA players than Dirk if they had and/or chose the same circumstances as Dirk with the NBA, you better believe it.

LMAO, I "clearly" haven't watched any Petrovic? Boy, my father has 10+ 20 year old vhs tapes of Drazen in his prime, gtfo :oldlol:

He was great, best Balkan player after Mirza Delibasic, but he ain't no Nowitzki.

[Bosnian Sajo]

i dont understand why people put hakeem over kobe its mind boggling. IMO hakeem is even knocked off the top 10 for lebron.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Rooster]

I don't agree with Pauk's statement, but the Sabonis myth? If you saw him at all before his injury plagued days and older years with the Blazers, you wouldn't be saying that.

He's right, Sabas is more of a myth. Save for the YouTube highlights, he never outplayed the Admiral.

[Rooster]

Drazen was not as fortunate to come into the NBA as a 19-20 year old as Dirk, with almost immediate given starting spot / minutes hence rapid transition & development.... if he did he would have been around a 30-5-5 player, Drazen was THAT good, trust me.... even though NBA teams were begging for him in the 80s, he refused because he refused to not be taken seriously (no starting spot, no minutes), he did his thing instead, became the greatest european player of all time and then decided to try this NBA thing out anyways even though it was a bit late & he would get like 7 mpg & have prime Drexler filling out the starting spot for years.... he went to NJN instead, they eventually gave him a chance, he averaged 22-3-4 shooting 52-45-87 on only 16 FGA at age 28, he was just getting ready ............. Then what happened?

You have CLEARLY not seen Drazen or Sabonis in their prime (with that i mean, a game/team/system that allows you to SEE them in their full offensive freedom at their very best), i beg you or anybody here to watch some Drazen before the NBA.... he was like Jerry West with even better jumpshot, quite possibly the greatest shooter i ever seen with that kindof scoring arsenal he had (Reggie Miller certainly doesnt disagree)... and Sabonis was a 7'4" guy who ran like a gazelle and could shoot jumpshots just like Dirk Nowitzki, he could also handle the ball, play amazing defense and had the court vision/passing better than any Center i ever seen.... the Sabonis you saw in the NBA was absolutely nothing, just an old injury proned guy with extra weight no minutes & quick departure....

Both of them would have been better NBA players than Dirk if they had and/or chose the same circumstances as Dirk with the NBA, you better believe it.

This is all hypothetical talk. Petrovic was the best player on a mediocre Nets team who went free falling without Kenny Anderson . His novelty of being the first Euro to be the best player on an NBA made him bigger than he actually was because if he was an American, he would be an afterthought.

Same myth also with Sabas. Yes his skills are very rare for his size but he never dominated the Admiral. Hakeem dominated the prime Admiral in a series, that's real talk.

[DMAVS41]

Drazen was not as fortunate to come into the NBA as a 19-20 year old as Dirk, with almost immediate given starting spot / minutes hence rapid transition & development.... if he did he would have been around a 30-5-5 player, Drazen was THAT good, trust me.... even though NBA teams were begging for him in the 80s, he refused because he refused to not be taken seriously (no starting spot, no minutes), he did his thing instead, became the greatest european player of all time and then decided to try this NBA thing out anyways even though it was a bit late & he would get like 7 mpg & have prime Drexler filling out the starting spot for years.... he went to NJN instead, they eventually gave him a chance, he averaged 22-3-4 shooting 52-45-87 on only 16 FGA at age 28, he was just getting ready ............. Then what happened?

You have CLEARLY not seen Drazen or Sabonis in their prime (with that i mean, a game/team/system that allows you to SEE them in their full offensive freedom at their very best), i beg you or anybody here to watch some Drazen before the NBA.... he was like Jerry West with even better jumpshot, quite possibly the greatest shooter i ever seen with that kindof scoring arsenal he had (Reggie Miller certainly doesnt disagree)... and Sabonis was a 7'4" guy who ran like a gazelle and could shoot jumpshots just like Dirk Nowitzki, he could also handle the ball, play amazing defense and had the court vision/passing better than any Center i ever seen.... the Sabonis you saw in the NBA was absolutely nothing, just an old injury proned guy with extra weight no minutes & quick departure....

Both of them would have been better NBA players than Dirk if they had and/or chose the same circumstances as Dirk with the NBA, you better believe it.


are you really serious with the bold?

we better believe that they would have been better than a top 20 at worst player of all time that is still going strong in his ****ing 16th year and has definitely been a top 15 player this year.

wow...that is quite the leap.

[Rooster]

Sabonis was seldom healthy in his PRIME. He is among the most over-rated players on this board. And I get so sick-and-tired of the "he outplayed Robinson in the '88 Olympics" crap. He certainly didn't outplay Robinson the '88 Olympics, nor the '86 World Championships. And Robinson went on to become a much better player, while Sabonis, who was seldom healthy in his prime, would fight injuries his entire career.

This.

The myth of Sabas dominating the Admiral spread like a myth in this board and all over the internet.

[iznogood]

Drazen was way better as a 2 way player even at young age. I've seen some of Sabonis' prime and I'd say he was better as well, even though he was not a player some people here make him to be.

[Rooster]

[/B]

are you really serious with the bold?

we better believe that they would have been better than a top 20 at worst player of all time that is still going strong in his ****ing 16th year and has definitely been a top 15 player this year.

wow...that is quite the leap.

He was begging people to watch Petrovic before the NBA:facepalm

Seriously, the corpse of Mc Adoo dominated the Europe on that era. I also beg people to watch Ammo before the NBA
Or even the White Mamba. He was such an all around stud back at USC.:oldlol: Petrovic was a pretty good player but overrated

[Rooster]

On that list?

Certainly one could argue Dirk over Moses, Karl Malone, and Dr. J actually....

Not against Moses and Dr J especially if you count his ABA days and destroying Bobby Jones in a series. Karl Malone and Dirk is neck to neck but that one ring will put people placing Dirk over him

[DMAVS41]

Not against Moses and Dr J especially if you count his ABA days and destroying Bobby Jones in a series. Karl Malone and Dirk is neck to neck but that one ring will put people placing Dirk over him

I don't really follow this.

Dirk destroyed KG in a series. He's had some amazing series against Duncan.

If you look at the entire body of work...Dirk absolutely has a case.

[magnax1]

Sabonis has an argument over Dirk, but yeah, probably top 25 or 30ish.

[ZMonkey11]

I still want to know how people rank Dirk over Wade too. Wade has more championships and a higher peak, yet people love putting Dirk ahead. Guess that's what happens when you're as hated as the Heat are.

Can't take any of your posts seriously. Side kick to every one of his chips and you put him ahead of Dirk. Yes, he read a sidekick to the refs in his first championship.

[Rooster]

I don't really follow this.

Dirk destroyed KG in a series. He's had some amazing series against Duncan.

If you look at the entire body of work...Dirk absolutely has a case.

Dr J won 3 ABA MVPs and 2 rings and 2 playoff MVPs. One of them completely destroying one of the best defensive player of all time Bobby Jones in a Finals. If you count these, Dirk has no case over him.

[Cold soul]

Yes, without question. I'd say Dirk should be higher top 20.

[AirFederer]

IMHO, Dirk's ranking could be anywhere from around 17-25. And I'm not sure it is fair to claim that Duncan has been the greatest PF of all-time, when clearly Duncan has been playing center, especially on defense, for much of his career.

Dirk, KG, Barkley, K. Malone, even McHale (who is very under-rated here), as well as Jerry Lucas and Pettit...were all exceptional PF's. I wouldn't have a problem with any order on any of them.

What, you are actually making sense here, Laz! Please keep it up, you know what I mean. :cheers:

[ThePhantomCreep]

Putting McHale in the KG/Barkely/Malone/Dirk tier is overrating him. Big time.

[DMAVS41]

Dr J won 3 ABA MVPs and 2 rings and 2 playoff MVPs. One of them completely destroying one of the best defensive player of all time Bobby Jones in a Finals. If you count these, Dirk has no case over him.

I think you should count everything a player does.

Am I to think that Dirk wouldn't have won in 06, for example and won finals mvp if he had a team anything close to the 83 Sixers?

Again...do you count Dirk's 06 series against the Spurs...beating the GOAT PF and a top 10 defender of all time led Spurs without HCA? Seems like you just want what Dr. J to mean more...

Do you count winning the title as a 20 to 1 underdog?

Essentially a 14 year prime to date of 24/8/3 59% TS in the regular season and career playoff averages of 26/10/3 58.4% TS

This is where PER is actually useful, but I won't even use it. Just wanted to point out that comparing two players using PER is good when it's across eras because it normalizes each individual year so the average PER is always 15

[Rooster]

I think you should count everything a player does.

Am I to think that Dirk wouldn't have won in 06, for example and won finals mvp if he had a team anything close to the 83 Sixers?

Again...do you count Dirk's 06 series against the Spurs...beating the GOAT PF and a top 10 defender of all time led Spurs without HCA? Seems like you just want what Dr. J to mean more...

Do you count winning the title as a 20 to 1 underdog?

Essentially a 14 year prime to date of 24/8/3 59% TS in the regular season and career playoff averages of 26/10/3 58.4% TS

This is where PER is actually useful, but I won't even use it. Just wanted to point out that comparing two players using PER is good when it's across eras because it normalizes each individual year so the average PER is always 15

Lakers and Celtics were also loaded on that era. So it's harder to win . And Dr J did not really had a lot of helped especially in 1981 when he won the MVP. The 83 was different because they got Moses Malone.

Counting Dr J ABA days.

5th All Time In Points with 30,026
5th In FG Made with 11,818
7th in Steals with 2,272
19th in Blocks with 1,941
28th In Rebounds with 10,525

16 All Star Appearances
4 MVPs
3 Rings
1 first Team Defensive Team

His NBA resume is also quite comparable to Dirk. He had the same number of MVP, championship and comparable All NBA selections and took the Sixer to Finals 3 times.

Dirk has no case over him.

[BoutPractice]

None of this should be controversial at this point.

Top 25 is the conservative ranking even those who are biased against him would probably agree on.

The rest is only debatable if you're fond of hypotheticals. It always starts with a "what if" compared to Dirk's actual body of work. We don't live in a parallel universe where Sabonis did not get injured.

[cos88]

Yea, except i dont know how they think about that GOAT euro part, i mean yes he is the GOAT NBA Euro, he was better/more accomplished than any euro in the NBA, but he is not the most accomplished player ever in Europe and neither is he the most talanted/skilled/dominant Euro player ever, that was prime Drazen Petrovic & Arvydas Sabonis.

:facepalm :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Lakers and Celtics were also loaded on that era. So it's harder to win . And Dr J did not really had a lot of helped especially in 1981 when he won the MVP. The 83 was different because they got Moses Malone.

Counting Dr J ABA days.

5th All Time In Points with 30,026
5th In FG Made with 11,818
7th in Steals with 2,272
19th in Blocks with 1,941
28th In Rebounds with 10,525

16 All Star Appearances
4 MVPs
3 Rings
1 first Team Defensive Team

His NBA resume is also quite comparable to Dirk. He had the same number of MVP, championship and comparable All NBA selections and took the Sixer to Finals 3 times.

Dirk has no case over him.

I go more with a case on who I thought was the better player first.

What is the point if you are just going to list off things...and arbitrarily say things like winning an ABA MVP is worth more than 11 straight 50 win seasons.

Or that winning a ring in 83 on a loaded team as the 2nd best player is worth more than Dirk taking the worst roster (and easily worst coach) to 67 wins...or upsetting the Spurs in round 2 in 06 with a legendary game 7.

Or that Dr. J's all defensive selection is worth more than Dirk being the 10th best ft shooter in playoff history

You see? Because then it turns into this arbitrary listing of things.

I'm assuming you value the things you listed more than;

Dirk having a higher playoff PER

Dirk having a 118 ortg in the playoffs (11 all time)
Erving having a 110 ortg in the playoffs (101 all time)...includes his ABA play

Dirk being top 10 in playoffs ppg

Dirk being 10th all time in ft percentage

Dirk being 29th in TS% in playoff history
Erving being 88th in TS% in playoff history...includes ABA

I could go on...I hope you get the point.


And this doesn't even have to be about Dirk. It could be about comparing Erving and a guy like KG.

Well, Erving destroys KG on the type of ranking you'd do, but you really willing to say KG has "no case" over Erving?

[WillC]

Drazen Petrovic gets the Kurt Cobain treatment; he died young, so people never got to see him as a washed up veteran. Therefore he is remembered more favourably than he should be.

Imagine if Shaq died before his Suns/Cavs/Celtics years? We'd probably rank him a lot higher.

Anyway, regarding the best power forwards ever, Tim Duncan is clearly number one. It's hard to make a strong argument for anyone over Karl Malone for second place. I personally have Bob Pettit third. Then it's nearly impossible to have a clear-cut winner for fourth place - it could be Nowitzki, Barkley or Garnett.

I'd argue that Nowitzki's 2011 championship run (beating the heavily favoured Heat in the finals) is a greater achievement than anything Barkley or Garnett managed in their careers. For that reason, amongst many others, I'd give a slight edge to Nowitzki.

And he is certainly the best European player of all-time. Let's take the rose-tinted glasses off for a second - Sabonis and Petrovic weren't as good as Nowitzki.

[Big#50]

Top 15. Dirk is the shit.
Good rebounder in the playoffs. Solid defender. Great scorer. His passing game really took off after 07. Complete as they come.

[SHAQisGOAT]

This is where PER is actually useful, but I won't even use it. Just wanted to point out that comparing two players using PER is good when it's across eras because it normalizes each individual year so the average PER is always 15

Just no..
Said it before, you can't compare PER across eras, or most advanced stats for that matter... compare it against their peers not across eras man :facepalm To put it simply, PER takes TOO much away from guys playing at a faster pace, especially/mostly when we're talking about stars, and who've played at a not-considerable difference in pace (like in the 80s, which is about 10%).
Couldn't Bird take 20 shots per game, at today's pace (even going to the line more :oldlol:)? Shawn Marion is 6'6'', can't even say he's quite as good as a rebounder as Bird, has the same TRB% as Larry for their career, and averages 9.0 RPG, in 35 min, for his career. In 1992, playing at the average pace of 95.8, a 35 years old Bird playing with career ending injuries, just a major shell of his former self, still put up 20.2/9.6/6.8/0.9/0.7, with less than 3 TO's, in less than 37 min, taking less than 17 shots and not going to the line much. Actually Bird averaged about the same he was averaging, at today's pace: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po1M--HaINA
Couldn't Magic average about the same at today's pace? In 1991, at 31 years old, with a team declining, at the average pace of 94.1, he still put up 19.5/12.5.
As pace was decreasing throughout the 70s into the 80s, FG% was increasing.. Better offense, worse defense? What gives? DRtg is pretty similar today and in the 80s or so. All that also gets pretty subjective.
.......
There are countless examples along the same lines...

CP3's 3rd best career PER is as good as Magic's career high.
Kobe's career high is higher than Larry's.
Lebron has several seasons with PER in the 30's, Kareem not even 1. Even D-Wade or T-Mac have 1.
Yao Ming's career high PER is just as good as Moses'.
Rick Barry's highest PER in the NBA is not as high as Carmelo's.
.......
Again, just some examples. Didn't some of those guys had better seasons? With better numbers? I'm supposed to think that Magic couldn't average better numbers than CP3 right now, with more impact, for example? :oldlol: Right... I'm supposed to think some of those guys couldn't average the same or pretty close to it, while having the same impact? :rolleyes:

7 of the top10 all-time leaders in PER were active in the past 15 seasons. It's like looking at the leaders in RPG, most from the 60s, and say they're the best rebounders ever.

.......

But keep comparing PER like that, or even using it as big factor.. Then saying it's useful or that it normalizes each individual year.
:rolleyes:

[kshutts1]

I don't see why anyone is having an issue with Dirk in the top 25. If we want to talk top 15, sure, that's a lot more questionable. But the only way I can see the top 25 being in question is if some much older and lesser known/mentioned players, like Lucas, Pettit, Mikan, Hondo, Barry, Unseld, Thurmond, etc... have a case over Dirk... but I'm guessing that there are less than 5 people on this board that have seen more than a handful of games of each of those players. Which is why I don't really rate them.

But anyway.. yeah.. short of some of the older generation having lesser known stars ranked ahead of Dirk, he is 100% in the top 25. And I've never said this before, but if you don't agree, you're really not that smart, or just trying to make waves.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I don't see why anyone is having an issue with Dirk in the top 25. If we want to talk top 15, sure, that's a lot more questionable. But the only way I can see the top 25 being in question is if some much older and lesser known/mentioned players, like Lucas, Pettit, Mikan, Hondo, Barry, Unseld, Thurmond, etc... have a case over Dirk... but I'm guessing that there are less than 5 people on this board that have seen more than a handful of games of each of those players. Which is why I don't really rate them.

But anyway.. yeah.. short of some of the older generation having lesser known stars ranked ahead of Dirk, he is 100% in the top 25. And I've never said this before, but if you don't agree, you're really not that smart, or just trying to make waves.

I don't who disagreed here, I don't think anyone did :confusedshrug: I do have sort of an "issue" about ranking him above someone like Moses.

[R.I.P.]

None of this should be controversial at this point.

Top 25 is the conservative ranking even those who are biased against him would probably agree on.

The rest is only debatable if you're fond of hypotheticals. It always starts with a "what if" compared to Dirk's actual body of work. We don't live in a parallel universe where Sabonis did not get injured.

Exactly. Otherwise we might as well start arguing that Yao is better than Wilt or that Penny is better than Magic or that Hill is better than LeBron.

Some European fans always argue against Dirk, because he played all of his career in the NBA, except for some 2nd division in Germany. He wasn

[tontoz]

He is clearly the best shooting big man ever. The other two are iffy and i don't really care one way or the other.

[DMAVS41]

Just no..
Said it before, you can't compare PER across eras, or most advanced stats for that matter... compare it against their peers not across eras man :facepalm To put it simply, PER takes TOO much away from guys playing at a faster pace, especially/mostly when we're talking about stars, and who've played at a not-considerable difference in pace (like in the 80s, which is about 10%).
Couldn't Bird take 20 shots per game, at today's pace (even going to the line more :oldlol:)? Shawn Marion is 6'6'', can't even say he's quite as good as a rebounder as Bird, has the same TRB% as Larry for their career, and averages 9.0 RPG, in 35 min, for his career. In 1992, playing at the average pace of 95.8, a 35 years old Bird playing with career ending injuries, just a major shell of his former self, still put up 20.2/9.6/6.8/0.9/0.7, with less than 3 TO's, in less than 37 min, taking less than 17 shots and not going to the line much. Actually Bird averaged about the same he was averaging, at today's pace: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po1M--HaINA
Couldn't Magic average about the same at today's pace? In 1991, at 31 years old, with a team declining, at the average pace of 94.1, he still put up 19.5/12.5.
As pace was decreasing throughout the 70s into the 80s, FG% was increasing.. Better offense, worse defense? What gives? DRtg is pretty similar today and in the 80s or so. All that also gets pretty subjective.
.......
There are countless examples along the same lines...

CP3's 3rd best career PER is as good as Magic's career high.
Kobe's career high is higher than Larry's.
Lebron has several seasons with PER in the 30's, Kareem not even 1. Even D-Wade or T-Mac have 1.
Yao Ming's career high PER is just as good as Moses'.
Rick Barry's highest PER in the NBA is not as high as Carmelo's.
.......
Again, just some examples. Didn't some of those guys had better seasons? With better numbers? I'm supposed to think that Magic couldn't average better numbers than CP3 right now, with more impact, for example? :oldlol: Right... I'm supposed to think some of those guys couldn't average the same or pretty close to it, while having the same impact? :rolleyes:

7 of the top10 all-time leaders in PER were active in the past 15 seasons. It's like looking at the leaders in RPG, most from the 60s, and say they're the best rebounders ever.

.......

But keep comparing PER like that, or even using it as big factor.. Then saying it's useful or that it normalizes each individual year.
:rolleyes:


You do realize that it is built into it to compare to their peers. That's how it works. The average player each season is 15.

I didn't use it as a big factor, but it's a whole lot better than listing off some dude's ABA stats or something. LOL

Things like that can and should be used....just like anything else. It just shouldn't be the end all be all.

Like I said before. You just want what you think matters more...to matter more.

Like Moses scoring more in the regular season and rebounding more in the regular season.

But Dirk scored more points in the playoffs and had more rebounds as well...LOL

I personally don't think that is a big factor. But you clearly do, but why does it matter more to you for the regular season...and not the playoffs?

We have to freak out about Moses throwing the ball off the backboard 4 times a game at least to inflate his rebounding numbers...that matters more....right?

Jesus man...you even admit that Moses gave up and stopped caring really post 83. And you said that matters...and I totally agree. And it's a reason why I like Dirk more.

Take a look at what Dirk is doing this year. 22/6/3 on 50/40/90 rounded up...working his ass off to try and get his team into the playoffs in one of the deepest and best conferences in NBA history. Sorry, that means something to me compared to a guy like Moses


But this whole, you can't use this because it's not perfect, thing really has to stop.

We can't use PER...but we can use MVP's? Those are perfect? Moses was not Shaq...yet Moses won more MVP's. Should I freak out and say you can't use MVP's because Moses has more mvp's than clearly better players? No...it's not all or nothing on this stuff.

Did you see me say Dirk is better than Moses off PER only? No, I'm not even arguing for that really...I'm saying a legit case can be made. You are claiming there is no case. And you listing a bunch of things that are arbitrary and have to be put into context as well...hasn't proved that at all.

PER matters a lot more to me than Moses's inflated rebounding totals...

[DMAVS41]

Shaq. Take a look at your first post on the subject;

-One time champion and FMVP...okay...same for Dirk

-Led a team that had no business in the finals...okay...maybe not quite the same for Dirk, but Dirk did lead a team not expected to get out of the 2nd round to the finals. Going through prime Duncan during the best 3 years of the Spurs era. Dominating a road game 7 and making the game winning play. Dirk also led a roster that had not business winning 67 games...to 67 wins.

-Moses had 8 all nba teams 4 first....okay...Dirk had 12 all nba teams...4 first. He might get one this year. Even if he doesn't...he's probably been a top 10 player this year

-12x all star...okay...Dirk is a 12x all star iirc...and he has at least two years left in which making it is a possibility

-18 or so nba season...okay...dirk has played 16 nba seasons and is still going strong

-5th all time in rebounds...okay...Dirk has more rebounds in the playoffs

-7th all time in points...okay...Dirk is 10th all time in points and has more points in the playoffs

-Had a great peak/prime....okay...so did Dirk...from 03 through 11 he was a ****ing beast. He is one of the greatest offensive forces in NBA history. If you call 11 his peak in terms of accomplishments...leading a 20 to 1 underdog to the title while having the most clutch playoff run since early 90's MJ is pretty damn beastly

-Still plenty of good reasons after Moses stopped caring...okay...Dirk has still had plenty of good seasons as he's started his marginal decline these last 3 years. Dirk since 11;

21/7/3 58% TS....in the playoffs (only played in 12) he's at 27/6/2 56% TS

-Played in great big man era...okay...so did Dirk...he played in the GOAT PF era

-Couple of solid ABA seasons....okay...Dirk had way more than a couple solid international seasons


LOL...you really think it's absurd? The big thing Malone has on Dirk is his 3 MVP's...and while that is very impressive and absolutely matters...it's not enough for me to change who I view the two players. Just like it won't be enough for me if someone says Nash is better than Dirk because of 2 mvp's to 1. Or that a guy like Lebron is better than Shaq or Duncan because he has more MVP's.

Again, it's not about under-rating Moses. It's about not giving Dirk enough credit for his career to date...

[AlphaWolf24]

I guarantee you..

If Dirk never won that chip in 11'....he would be viewed as a soft Euro and Shaq/Chuck wouldn't be talking about him at all right now.


basing their opinions on dem Rangz.

[BoutPractice]

Well he kind of deserves some kind of credit for that ring, wouldn't you think?

[Dr.J4ever]

Lakers and Celtics were also loaded on that era. So it's harder to win . And Dr J did not really had a lot of helped especially in 1981 when he won the MVP. The 83 was different because they got Moses Malone.

Counting Dr J ABA days.

5th All Time In Points with 30,026
5th In FG Made with 11,818
7th in Steals with 2,272
19th in Blocks with 1,941
28th In Rebounds with 10,525

16 All Star Appearances
4 MVPs
3 Rings
1 first Team Defensive Team

His NBA resume is also quite comparable to Dirk. He had the same number of MVP, championship and comparable All NBA selections and took the Sixer to Finals 3 times.

Dirk has no case over him.
Correction. Doc took the Sixers to four(4) NBA Finals appearances. And yes, his ABA days should count every bit as much as NBA numbers unless you would also discount pre-merger 1970s NBA records from other players.

I mean, after the merger, the new NBA improved with the infusion of the ABA players who were very well represented in All Star teams, division titles, individual stats, and NBA Finals starting lineups(50% to be exact).

[DMAVS41]

I guarantee you..

If Dirk never won that chip in 11'....he would be viewed as a soft Euro and Shaq/Chuck wouldn't be talking about him at all right now.


basing their opinions on dem Rangz.

And those people would be ignorant to how good Dirk really was.

Just like I guarantee you...if Kobe didn't win a title after Shaq....he'd be viewed as an over-rated chucker that couldn't win without a GOAT candidate big man at his peak...

Doesn't make it right...

[tontoz]

Well he kind of deserves some kind of credit for that ring, wouldn't you think?


Not really since he rode the backs of Jason Terry and Marion.











sike

[Dr.J4ever]

I go more with a case on who I thought was the better player first.

What is the point if you are just going to list off things...and arbitrarily say things like winning an ABA MVP is worth more than 11 straight 50 win seasons.
Or that winning
a ring in 83 on a loaded team as the 2nd best player is worth more than Dirk taking the worst roster (and easily worst coach) to 67 wins...or upsetting the Spurs in round 2 in 06 with a legendary game 7.

Or that Dr. J's all defensive selection is worth more than Dirk being the 10th best ft shooter in playoff history

You see? Because then it turns into this arbitrary listing of things.

I'm assuming you value the things you listed more than;

Dirk having a higher playoff PER

Dirk having a 118 ortg in the playoffs (11 all time)
Erving having a 110 ortg in the playoffs (101 all time)...includes his ABA play

Dirk being top 10 in playoffs ppg

Dirk being 10th all time in ft percentage

Dirk being 29th in TS% in playoff history
Erving being 88th in TS% in playoff history...includes ABA

I could go on...I hope you get the point.


And this doesn't even have to be about Dirk. It could be about comparing Erving and a guy like KG.

Well, Erving destroys KG on the type of ranking you'd do, but you really willing to say KG has "no case" over Erving?
With regards to your point about Doc being the 2nd best player on the 1983 team. I saw almost every game of that season in real time. Let me tell you Doc was clearly the best overall player of that team. It was Doc's team before Moses got there, and for the sake of winning, Doc allowed Moses to be the no. 1 go to option in the half court.

My question is : why is this held against the Doc? Magic had Kareem to throw the ball in the half court for years. Is anyone here gonna argue that KAJ wasn't the no.1 option in the Laker half court set? No one, right.

[AlphaWolf24]

And those people would be ignorant to how good Dirk really was.

Just like I guarantee you...if Kobe didn't win a title after Shaq....he'd be viewed as an over-rated chucker that couldn't win without a GOAT candidate big man at his peak...

Doesn't make it right...


Not necessarily true...


I actually watched people who called me out for saying in 03 that Kobe was as good as or better than Dr.J later argue that 03 Kobe was better than Larry Bird. And he didnt do shit of note in the 03 playoffs.

People were already saying Kobe was better then Bird in 2003....



and some people put more weight in winning...


Playing well in the regular season is totally different from playing well in the playoffs...and winning.


This is why I love when great players get great help. No excuses and we get to see what they can do.



How would he be viewed as Overrated and Dirk not? Kobe won 3 titles with Shaq...Dirk won 1 title....Kobe's 3 playoff runs hold more weight then Dirks 1 especially if you put so much weight on Winning in the playoff's (and especially looking at how many times Dirk fizzled out on the big stage with good caliber teams ).




IMO

[DMAVS41]

With regards to your point about Doc being the 2nd best player on the 1983 team. I saw almost every game of that season in real time. Let me tell you Doc was clearly the best overall player of that team. It was Doc's team before Moses got there, and for the sake of winning, Doc allowed Moses to be the no. 1 go to option in the half court.

My question is : why is this held against the Doc? Magic had Kareem to throw the ball in the half court for years. Is anyone here gonna argue that KAJ wasn't the no.1 option in the Laker half court set? No one, right.

I watched it as well. Not every game though...so I have no problem deferring to you on that. I don't really care all that much about who the best player was...I was just pointing out that the 83 Sixers were one of the best teams ever and it's not like Dirk hasn't proven he could win in a situation like that.


Holding it against him? Not at all. Nobody is trying to take credit away from Dr. J being one of the best players ever.

[mr.big35]

Not necessarily true...



People were already saying Kobe was better then Bird in 2003....



and some people put more weight in winning...



How would he be viewed as Overrated and Dirk not? Kobe won 3 titles with Shaq...Dirk won 1 title....Kobe's 3 playoff runs hold more weight then Dirks 1 especially if you put so much weight on Winning in the playoff's (and especially looking at how many times Dirk fizzled out on the big stage with good caliber teams ).




IMO

its like talking to wall with Dmavs41 he will not listen. he thinks dirk is top 10 pf even though facts tell other wise. this guy dont believe in facts and just is a plain old stan

[tontoz]

How would he be viewed as Overrated and Dirk not? Kobe won 3 titles with Shaq...Dirk won 1 title....Kobe's 3 playoff runs hold more weight then Dirks 1 especially if you put so much weight on Winning in the playoff's (and especially looking at how many times Dirk fizzled out on the big stage with good caliber teams ).

IMO


Huh? Dirk's postseason numbers are better than Kobe's but he fizzed out?

Please back away from Kobe's anus. I think the excessive methane exposure is starting to cause brain damage.

[mr.big35]

Dmavs41 gets so excited when there is a thread about his hero dirk

[DMAVS41]

Not necessarily true...



People were already saying Kobe was better then Bird in 2003....



and some people put more weight in winning...



How would he be viewed as Overrated and Dirk not? Kobe won 3 titles with Shaq...Dirk won 1 title....Kobe's 3 playoff runs hold more weight then Dirks 1 especially if you put so much weight on Winning in the playoff's (and especially looking at how many times Dirk fizzled out on the big stage with good caliber teams ).




IMO


Nah...people would reflect back on him and say he could only win with Shaq. Kobe wasn't great yet in 00 for 1 of his rings either.

The problem with this is that Dirk never had the kind of teams Kobe had...so it's a terrible comparison.

You missed my point as well. People would be wrong...LOL

If you really think Kobe could have gone the rest of his career post 02 without winning another title and still be thought of like he is now...you are high as ****.

He needed to prove he could win without Shaq.

Just like Dirk needed to prove he could win...difference is that people over-rated the **** out of Dirk's help because Americans are resistant to a player like Dirk that plays differently. Just the way it is...

And please stop saying Dirk fizzled out a lot in the playoffs. It happened one year. The only 2 years the Mavs didn't advance as far or farther than expected in the playoffs was 07 and 10. 07 was Dirk's fault...10 absolutely wasn't.

LOL at fizzled out...educate yourself son

Have to laugh as well about this;

Kobe goes for 16/5/4 41% TS...wins the title
Dirk goes for 20/11/2 51% TS...can't get out of the first round

Dat stacked Kobe help...the ultimate eraser of shit play

Let me guess...Kobe didn't fizzle out when he went for 22/3/4 46% TS in the finals
Let me guess...Kobe didn't fizzle out when he went for 23/3/3 51% TS....and upset in the 2nd round

Right? None of that matters...

[Dresta]

I think you should count everything a player does.

Am I to think that Dirk wouldn't have won in 06, for example and won finals mvp if he had a team anything close to the 83 Sixers?

Again...do you count Dirk's 06 series against the Spurs...beating the GOAT PF and a top 10 defender of all time led Spurs without HCA? Seems like you just want what Dr. J to mean more...

Do you count winning the title as a 20 to 1 underdog?

Essentially a 14 year prime to date of 24/8/3 59% TS in the regular season and career playoff averages of 26/10/3 58.4% TS

This is where PER is actually useful, but I won't even use it. Just wanted to point out that comparing two players using PER is good when it's across eras because it normalizes each individual year so the average PER is always 15
He certainly wouldn't have won Finals MVP with a better team considering Jason Terry played better than him in that series.

[DMAVS41]

He certainly wouldn't have won Finals MVP with a better team considering Jason Terry played better than him in that series.

Actually Terry didn't....he put up worse numbers and drew less attention defensively than Dirk did. He had a worse ortg and worse drtg. He choked in the elimination game 6...and he was part of the perimeter defense that gave up one of the best finals performances ever to a guard.

LOL...

[AlphaWolf24]

Huh? Dirk's postseason numbers are better than Kobe's but he fizzed out?

Please back away from Kobe's anus. I think the excessive methane exposure is starting to cause brain damage.


Say what?...

please show me and the rest of the world how Dirk is a better playoff performer then Kobe..

Props to you for that Wizards loyalty though:applause:

[Dresta]

Actually Terry didn't....he put up worse numbers and drew less attention defensively than Dirk did. He had a worse ortg and worse drtg. He choked in the elimination game 6...and he was part of the perimeter defense that gave up one of the best finals performances ever to a guard.

LOL...
Stop with the bs stats - ortg and drtg for a single series? plz. Dampier had the best ortg and drtg on the Mavs that series, perhaps he was their best player then, because Dirk wasn't the best anything in that series. Terry was the impact guy who took the series away from Miami in game 1 (where Dirk was shite), showed up in the all important game 5 (where Dirk was also shite), and only really had a bad game 6. Dirk had 3 shite games, didn't manage to shoot over 50% a single time, and his defensive frailties were just as glaring as Terry's were (woeful help defense).

By ortg/drtg Zo should have been playing all of Shaq's minutes and Shaq should have sat his fat ass on the bench he was such a liability (and yet people use Shaq to detract from that title and pretend Wade had more help than Dirk in that series, which is nonsense).

[tontoz]

Say what?...

please show me and the rest of the world how Dirk is a better playoff performer then Kobe..

Props to you for that Wizards loyalty though:applause:



Dirk's playoff averages are 25.9 ppg, 10.3 rpg shooting 46.3% from the field, 38% from 3, 89% from the foul line. And he was the clear go to guy every season. He didn't have Shaq to take defensive focus away from him.

Kobe 25.5 ppg, 5 rebounds, 5 assists shooting 45.4% from the field, 33.5% from 3 and 84% from the line.


So they scored the same number of points. Dirk shot better across the board with worse teamates but he was the one who fizzled out? Dirk averaged 3 more ppg (and 2 more rebounds) in the playoffs than he did in the regular season. How is that fizzling out?

:facepalm

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

No sht. Top 15 ever
LOL @ nikkas who think Drazen was overrated that nikkas so overrated he was worse on defense than Nash and nowhere near as good on offense:roll: :roll: :roll:
He was like worse Mark Price w/ better shooting

[riseagainst]

Dirk definitely is the GOAT big man shooter. look at his cawd dam percentages. Especially his 3P and FT%. Ridiculous.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Dirk's playoff averages are 25.9 ppg, 10.3 rpg shooting 46.3% from the field, 38% from 3, 89% from the foul line. And he was the clear go to guy every season. He didn't have Shaq to take defensive focus away from him.

Kobe 25.5 ppg, 5 rebounds, 5 assists shooting 45.4% from the field, 33.5% from 3 and 84% from the line.


So they scored the same number of points. Dirk shot better across the board with worse teamates but he was the one who fizzled out? Dirk averaged 3 more ppg (and 2 more rebounds) in the playoffs than he did in the regular season. How is that fizzling out?

:facepalm

Easy to keep your averages up when you go one-and-done six times in the postseason--often forgotten is that Dirk has only gone deep in the playoffs three times in his career. He wasn't in the postseason as a teenager either, lowering his averages (His first postseason exposure came in 2001; Kobe was a playoff vet by then).

Dirk was unfairly maligned as a postseason choked before the 2011 title, but his record wasn't all the sparkling either.

[moe94]

No sht. Top 15 ever
LOL @ nikkas who think Drazen was overrated that nikkas so overrated he was worse on defense than Nash and nowhere near as good on offense:roll: :roll: :roll:
He was like worse Mark Price w/ better shooting

Zero case.

[tontoz]

Easy to keep your averages up when you go one-and-done six times in the postseason--often forgotten is that Dirk has only gone deep in the playoffs three times in his career. He wasn't in the postseason as a teenager either, lowering his averages (His first postseason exposure came in 2001; Kobe was a playoff vet by then).

Dirk was unfairly maligned as a postseason choked before the 2011 title, but his record wasn't all the sparkling either.



Kobe didn't play many minutes in the playoffs when he was a teenager. He did play a lot with much better teamates though. Dirk never played with a force like Shaq to take the defensive attention away from him and carry him to titles.

If you are trying to say that Dirk posted big numbers in losing 1st round series then obviously he wasn't the reason why they lost.

Dirk is the main reason why Dallas has been to the playoffs 12 straight seasons, going on 13. And his production in 128 playoff games is significantly better than his regular season numbers.

[AlphaWolf24]

Dirk's playoff averages are 25.9 ppg, 10.3 rpg shooting 46.3% from the field, 38% from 3, 89% from the foul line. And he was the clear go to guy every season. He didn't have Shaq to take defensive focus away from him.

Kobe 25.5 ppg, 5 rebounds, 5 assists shooting 45.4% from the field, 33.5% from 3 and 84% from the line.


So they scored the same number of points. Dirk shot better across the board with worse teamates but he was the one who fizzled out? Dirk averaged 3 more ppg (and 2 more rebounds) in the playoffs than he did in the regular season. How is that fizzling out?

:facepalm

That's Nice and all...but from 2000 - 2012 Kobe's playoff averages are 27.8PPG 5.3REB and 4.9 ast...

11 seasons and 7 NBA Finals with 5 championships to boot. All while carrying Shaq and the Lakers in the 4th Quarters.

Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29% ...who carried who?


but wait there is more..

Kobe has 6 seasons where he played 19 or more playoff games....

Dirk has 9 seasons where he played 10 games or less ( outta 12 seasons)

Kobe has 4 runs of over 30ppg 5reb 5ast , 1 run of 30ppg 4reb and 4ast and 2 runs of 29PPG 6reb 5ast

Dirks best Playoff's were 28PPG 2 ast and 13reb...he did that once...and only played 8 games.

Career totals are pointless in this debate...but then again Bullets fans have little peepee's:confusedshrug:

[tontoz]

That's Nice and all...but from 2000 - 2012 Kobe's playoff averages are 27.8PPG 5.3REB and 4.9 ast...

11 seasons and 7 NBA Finals with 5 championships to boot. All while carrying Shaq and the Lakers in the 4th Quarters.

Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29% ...who carried who?


but wait there is more..

Kobe has 6 seasons where he played 19 or more playoff games....

Dirk has 9 seasons where he played 10 games or less ( outta 12 seasons)

Kobe has 4 runs of over 30ppg 5reb 5ast , 1 run of 30ppg 4reb and 4ast and 2 runs of 29PPG 6reb 5ast

Dirks best Playoff's were 28PPG 2 ast and 13reb...he did that once...and only played 8 games.

Career totals are pointless in this debate...but then again Bullets fans have little peepee's:confusedshrug:



Why career totals are pointless? Is it because Dirk's are better?

:oldlol:


So it makes more sense to cherry pick the stats to make Kobe's look better? OK

[fandarko]

Drazen was not as fortunate to come into the NBA as a 19-20 year old as Dirk, with almost immediate given starting spot / minutes hence rapid transition & development.... if he did he would have been around a 30-5-5 player, Drazen was THAT good, trust me.... he went to NJN instead, they eventually gave him a chance, he averaged 22-3-4 shooting 52-45-87 on only 16 FGA at age 28, he was just getting ready ............. Then what happened?

You have CLEARLY not seen Drazen or Sabonis in their prime (with that i mean, a game/team/system that allows you to SEE them in their full offensive freedom at their very best), i beg you or anybody here to watch some Drazen before the NBA.... he was like Jerry West with even better jumpshot, quite possibly the greatest shooter i ever seen with that kindof scoring arsenal he had (Reggie Miller certainly doesnt disagree)... and Sabonis was a 7'4" guy who ran like a gazelle and could shoot jumpshots just like Dirk Nowitzki, he could also handle the ball, play amazing defense and had the court vision/passing better than any Center i ever seen.... the Sabonis you saw in the NBA was absolutely nothing, just an old injury proned guy with extra weight no minutes & quick departure....

Both of them would have been better NBA players than Dirk if they had and/or chose the same circumstances as Dirk with the NBA, you better believe it.

That's true to a certain extent, this coming from a Drazen-lover and someone who has great respect for Sabonis. I've watched them both in Europe in their primes. HOWEVER, neither of them was better than Toni Kukoc, certaintly not Drazen. Drazen's last season with the Nets was less than stellar (knee) and he was a unidimensional (no defense) player compared to Kukoc. He was the best European scorer ever, period. Best player ever? No. Kukoc has a better case than him (three European titles by the age of 23), as the first great all round player from Europe. Petrovic came too late, Sabonis too. Kukoc could have been better than Dirk, but came to play for a contender, limited role and touches. As opposed to all these guys, Dirk peaked in the NBA and had a much better NBA career than all of them. Can't really compare all these guys. They could have been much better in the NBA, but didn't land in the best of settings for individual accomplishment.

[AlphaWolf24]

Why career totals are pointless? Is it because Dirk's are better?

:oldlol:


So it makes more sense to cherry pick the stats to make Kobe's look better? OK


actually by using your criteria of marginal differences ....yes it makes perfect sense.

or else Allen Iverson with his 29PPG 6ast 3reb playoff averages is better then Both...see how dumb that sounds????


welcome



next

[DMAVS41]

Stop with the bs stats - ortg and drtg for a single series? plz. Dampier had the best ortg and drtg on the Mavs that series, perhaps he was their best player then, because Dirk wasn't the best anything in that series. Terry was the impact guy who took the series away from Miami in game 1 (where Dirk was shite), showed up in the all important game 5 (where Dirk was also shite), and only really had a bad game 6. Dirk had 3 shite games, didn't manage to shoot over 50% a single time, and his defensive frailties were just as glaring as Terry's were (woeful help defense).

By ortg/drtg Zo should have been playing all of Shaq's minutes and Shaq should have sat his fat ass on the bench he was such a liability (and yet people use Shaq to detract from that title and pretend Wade had more help than Dirk in that series, which is nonsense).

So ignorant....it never ceases to amaze.

You compare like with like...Terry and Dirk played similar minutes...and in fact, Dirk had it much harder as he saw more defensive attention. You don't compare Dampier to Dirk or Terry or Wade...etc. You really this ****ing dumb? You ignore Dirk's rebounding as well.

The fact that you think Dirk was shit in game 5 shows how little you ****ing know...go back and watch the end of that game moron.

Terry got lit up defensively and choked in game 6 at home. He was objectively a worse player. Was shit on the boards...didn't create well at all for how often he had the ball. And actually didn't score that efficiently given the abundance of looks he got off the benefit of attracting less defensive attention than Dirk.

Terry did play well enough to win...I will say that. He wasn't why we lost...neither was Dirk. It was Howard, Harris, and Stackhouse that killed us...they were awful...

[tontoz]

actually by using your criteria of marginal differences ....yes it makes perfect sense.

or else Allen Iverson with his 29PPG 6ast 3reb playoff averages is better then Both...see how dumb that sounds????


welcome



next


What does Iverson have to do with this? Did i claim that Iverson fizzed out in the playoffs? Idiot stans


Let's just ignore the fact that Dirk shot better across the board in spite of being the focus of the defense in every game. Let's pretend like he fizzled out no matter how well he played, just because his team lost.

:facepalm

[BIZARRO]

Putting McHale in the KG/Barkely/Malone/Dirk tier is overrating him. Big time.

Very true and thanks for being someone who knows what he's talking about. I was a HUGE Celtic fan back in the day and no doubt McHale is way overrated nowadays. He was very good no doubt, but remember we're talking about a guy who never avg'd double figure rebounds, even 3 assts., was a total black hole and a 6th man til he was 28. Only started even 70 games twice in his career. Great in the post of course, and I loved rooting for him. But he ain't close to peak Barkley or Malone/KG/and even Dirk. These were players who were forces in many ways and Mchale, while still great, is on a lower tier.

As far as the rest of the thread, I have Dirk somewhere 20-25. He's tricky to rate though; my head tells me peak KG is better, but that Championship run is better than all but 10 players in history have ever done really.

Anyway, I'll go:

Barkley
Malone
KG and Dirk tie (total cop out, if pressed I'll go Dirk for the end of game shooting, but man that's tough)

[BIZARRO]

That's Nice and all...but from 2000 - 2012 Kobe's playoff averages are 27.8PPG 5.3REB and 4.9 ast...

11 seasons and 7 NBA Finals with 5 championships to boot. All while carrying Shaq and the Lakers in the 4th Quarters.

Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29% ...who carried who?


but wait there is more..

Kobe has 6 seasons where he played 19 or more playoff games....

Dirk has 9 seasons where he played 10 games or less ( outta 12 seasons)

Kobe has 4 runs of over 30ppg 5reb 5ast , 1 run of 30ppg 4reb and 4ast and 2 runs of 29PPG 6reb 5ast

Dirks best Playoff's were 28PPG 2 ast and 13reb...he did that once...and only played 8 games.

Career totals are pointless in this debate...but then again Bullets fans have little peepee's:confusedshrug:


Where did you find that stat? I find that really hard to believe. I'll eat crow if you can show me the evidence. But until then, I don't believe it, or at least the way you're skewing it. Over 1 series maybe, but not over the 11 years.
NO WAY, but I'd love to see the evidence you got for that stat.

[AlphaWolf24]

Where did you find that stat? I find that really hard to believe. I'll eat crow if you can show me the evidence. But until then, I don't believe it, or at least the way you're skewing it. Over 1 series maybe, but not over the 11 years.
NO WAY, but I'd love to see the evidence you got for that stat.


No it was for the 01' 02 ' playoff's...when Kobe became the #1 option in crunchtime/facilitator of the triangle.


In 2000 ( while he was still a Star) He would have to pick and choose much more....He did takeover the WCFinals especially in the Legendary Game 7....and the Game 4 takeover in the 00's Finals....but he was still finding his game.

By 2001 he took his game to the next level.

By 2003 he was Kobe.

[AlphaWolf24]

What does Iverson have to do with this? Did i claim that Iverson fizzed out in the playoffs? Idiot stans


Let's just ignore the fact that Dirk shot better across the board in spite of being the focus of the defense in every game. Let's pretend like he fizzled out no matter how well he played, just because his team lost.

:facepalm


He has better " career" playoff totals then both Kobe and Dirk...but nobody in their right mind would say he was better.

your basing your criteria that Dirk is a better post season player then Kobe on career totals...

are you not?

- Just showing how idiotic you sound.....it's kinda 2EZ


- because when faced with the facts and context you seem to BackTrack like Shawn Kemp at a DNA lab.

[tontoz]

He has better " career" playoff totals then both Kobe and Dirk...but nobody in their right mind would say he was better.

your basing your criteria that Dirk is a better post season player then Kobe on career totals...

are you not?

- Just showing how idiotic you sound.....it's kinda 2EZ


- because when faced with the facts and context you seem to BackTrack like Shawn Kemp at a DNA lab.


The fact is that you said Dirk fizzled in the playoffs even though he has better career playoff numbers than Kobe. Your cherry picking doesn't change that.

And Dirk's playoff career TS of 58.4% is over 4% better than Kobe's. How can a guy who fizzled in the playoffs score the same number of points with significantly better efficiency?

Iverson's scoring efficiency was worse than both players so it isn't a given that he was better. He did have weaker teamates than both though. But i never claimed that he fizzled in the playoffs so he is irrelevant.

[AlphaWolf24]

The fact is that you said Dirk fizzled in the playoffs even though he has better career playoff numbers than Kobe. Your cherry picking doesn't change that.

And Dirk's playoff career TS of 58.4% is over 4% better than Kobe's. How can a guy who fizzled in the playoffs score the same number of points with significantly better efficiency?

Iverson's scoring efficiency was worse than both players so it isn't a given that he was better. He did have weaker teamates than both though. But i never claimed that he fizzled in the playoffs so he is irrelevant.


yes it does...My cherry picking absolutely shows Kobe has done better in the post season then Dirk , for a much longer time also.

You can Change it to TS%...I will still go back to Kobe having better/longer Playoff Runs then Dirk and winning much more games.

either way I win













next

[tontoz]

yes it does...My cherry picking absolutely shows Kobe has done better in the post season then Dirk , for a much longer time also.

You can Change it to TS%...I will still go back to Kobe having better/longer Playoff Runs then Dirk and winning much more games.

either way I win

next


Anyone's stats look better when you ignore their bad games and focus on their good games. If Kobe's numbers really were better than Dirk's then you wouldn't feel the need to cherry pick.

I doubt Kobe would have had as many long playoff runs with Eric Dampier at center instead of Shaq. Dampier started next to Dirk for 6 years. Dampier's career playoff numbers are 5/6. Shaq's are 24/12.

And my point that Dirk's playoff numbers being better than Kobe's still stands. That is why you are trying to cherry pick stats and change the topic to team performance.

[DMAVS41]

I don't care to get into the Kobe/Dirk thing all that much, but just do the numbers from 00 on for Kobe...

28/5/5 54.3% TS 23.0 PER 110 ortg 106 drtg for Kobe

26/10/3 58.4% TS 24.7 PER 118 ortg 107 drtg for Dirk


And in terms of fizzled out...Kobe had his fair share including the 00 finals, 04 finals, 06 game 7, and 11 playoffs in general.

Obviously you'd expect that from Kobe as he's played more games and it's hard playing that many playoff games.

But meh...acting like Dirk somehow played worse than Kobe in the playoffs over the last 12 to 14 years or so is silly...

[Euroleague]

Drazen Petrovic
Drazen Dalipagic
Mirza Delibasic
Dragan Kicanovic
Janis Krumins
Vladimir Tkachenko
Sergey Belov
Kresimir Kosic
Radivoj Korac
Dino Meneghin
Epi
Nikos Galis
Juan Antonio Corbalan
Emiliano Rodriguez
Pau Gasol
Vassilis Spanoulis
Sarunas Marciulionis
Juan Carlos Navarro
Sarunas Jasikevicius
etc., etc., etc.

The American NBA only myths and legends of "so and so is the Euro GOAT" talk is getting a bit ridiculous...............

The NBA is NOT the only basketball played in the world.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:biggums:

Shaq and Barkley are full of it as usual.

[Euroleague]

He was begging people to watch Petrovic before the NBA:facepalm

Seriously, the corpse of Mc Adoo dominated the Europe on that era. I also beg people to watch Ammo before the NBA
Or even the White Mamba. He was such an all around stud back at USC.:oldlol: Petrovic was a pretty good player but overrated

Funny, you always say this EVERY time Euroleague comes up. One of your favorite catch phrases. Must be programmed into your bot code.

But you never mention how the same McAdoo also said Galis was better than Bird and Magic. The same Galis that you claim was not even good enough to make an NBA roster.

[Euroleague]

[QUOTE=R.I.P.]Exactly. Otherwise we might as well start arguing that Yao is better than Wilt or that Penny is better than Magic or that Hill is better than LeBron.

Some European fans always argue against Dirk, because he played all of his career in the NBA, except for some 2nd division in Germany. He wasn

[moe94]

Drazen Petrovic
Drazen Dalipagic
Mirza Delibasic
Dragan Kicanovic
Janis Krumins
Vladimir Tkachenko
Sergey Belov
Kresimir Kosic
Radivoj Korac
Dino Meneghin
Epi
Nikos Galis
Juan Antonio Corbalan
Emiliano Rodriguez
Pau Gasol
Vassilis Spanoulis
Sarunas Marciulionis
Juan Carlos Navarro
Sarunas Jasikevicius
etc., etc., etc.

The American NBA only myths and legends of "so and so is the Euro GOAT" talk is getting a bit ridiculous...............

The NBA is NOT the only basketball played in the world.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:biggums:

Shaq and Barkley are full of it as usual.

Dirk is better than all of them, though. :biggums:

[Euroleague]

That's true to a certain extent, this coming from a Drazen-lover and someone who has great respect for Sabonis. I've watched them both in Europe in their primes. HOWEVER, neither of them was better than Toni Kukoc, certaintly not Drazen. Drazen's last season with the Nets was less than stellar (knee) and he was a unidimensional (no defense) player compared to Kukoc. He was the best European scorer ever, period. Best player ever? No. Kukoc has a better case than him (three European titles by the age of 23), as the first great all round player from Europe. Petrovic came too late, Sabonis too. Kukoc could have been better than Dirk, but came to play for a contender, limited role and touches. As opposed to all these guys, Dirk peaked in the NBA and had a much better NBA career than all of them. Can't really compare all these guys. They could have been much better in the NBA, but didn't land in the best of settings for individual accomplishment.

False. That was Galis.

[Euroleague]

Dirk is better than all of them, though. :biggums:

No. Most definitely not. Just as an example, Bill Russell said Krumins was the best player he played against after Wilt. And he's not even in the top 5 on that list.

Shaq and Barkley are suffering from the same disease as the idiots in this forum. Not knowing that the whole world is not just the USA.

[Anaximandro1]

Drazen's last season with the Nets was less than stellar (knee) and he was a unidimensional (no defense) player compared to Kukoc. He was the best European scorer ever, period. Best player ever? No. Kukoc has a better case than him (three European titles by the age of 23), as the first great all round player from Europe.

Nikos Galis was an unstoppable scoring machine. He led the Greek national team to the EuroBasket title in 1987, averaging 37 ppg. He is the best scorer in EuroBasket history with a total of 1,032 points.

Galis 30 pt vs. Petrovic 22 pt (Eurobasket 1987 semifinal) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjKjvNVidNw)

Galis 40 pt vs. Soviet Union (Eurobasket 1987 final) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93qc8EzsohM)

[Kblaze8855]

Or that it doesn't mean anything that Dirk is 23rd in playoff rebounds and Moses is 27th...right?

Only what you list and think matters.


You cant possibly think that matters. Moses is in the discussion for greatest rebounder ever. In the playoffs he pulled down 18, 17, 21, 14, 15, 17, 16, 14, 11, 13, 11, and 12 a game before he was a role player. He was first or second in the NBA in rebounds 7 times. Wilt and Russell are the only two people with more rebounds if Moses ABA seasons are counted and its not like he had inflated numbers there...he got more rebounds than his ABA peak 5 seasons in the NBA.

But we talk about total playoff rebounds like it matters when in his day there were no 7 game first rounds and for the top seeds no first round at all? When he was MVP in 1983...the 76ers had a first round bye.

That's 7 potential games lost compared to today. Hes 19 rebounds behind Dirk....and he had 38/17 his first playoff game that year(second round).

But we are talking totals?

Reminds me of a guy who posted that Kobe was about to pass Bird in playoff assists and ignored that they had shorter early rounds and in some cases...first round byes.

If totals ever matter(questionable) they sure don't matter much comparing playoff totals from guys who came into the NBA decades apart....

[$LakerGold]

Dirk is a great player, and more than likely top 20, but he wasn't better than Sabonis, so they need to cut the GOAT Euro shit, since they really don't have a clue about basketball out there.
And you do? Yeah, because you've been through it all. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Smoke117]

On that list?

Certainly one could argue Dirk over Moses, Karl Malone, and Dr. J actually....


Dirk being your favorite player of all time and your bias may be able to argue Dirk over Moses, Karl, and Dr. J, but nobody with an objective opinion is putting Dirk over those three players.

[ThePhantomCreep]

That's true to a certain extent, this coming from a Drazen-lover and someone who has great respect for Sabonis. I've watched them both in Europe in their primes. HOWEVER, neither of them was better than Toni Kukoc, certaintly not Drazen. Drazen's last season with the Nets was less than stellar (knee) and he was a unidimensional (no defense) player compared to Kukoc. He was the best European scorer ever, period. Best player ever? No. Kukoc has a better case than him (three European titles by the age of 23), as the first great all round player from Europe. Petrovic came too late, Sabonis too. Kukoc could have been better than Dirk, but came to play for a contender, limited role and touches. As opposed to all these guys, Dirk peaked in the NBA and had a much better NBA career than all of them. Can't really compare all these guys. They could have been much better in the NBA, but didn't land in the best of settings for individual accomplishment.

Was Kukoc considered a good defender in Europe? He was absolutely awful in the NBA. Also, Kukoc at his absolute best in the NBA couldn't carry Dirk's gym bag, so I'm not seeing how he would have developed into the better player had he arrived at a younger age. In his one year as the man he led the Bulls to worst record in the league. That wasn't all his fault, and he put up decent numbers, but clearly he wasn't someone you could build a contender around. He was only 30-31 at the time, so it wasn't due to him being over the hill. The myth-making is getting out of hand here.

[smoovegittar]

I have to agree.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Dirk being your favorite player of all time and your bias may be able to argue Dirk over Moses, Karl, and Dr. J, but nobody with an objective opinion is putting Dirk over those three players.
Since when was career playoff choker like Karl untouchable to Dirk:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Dr.J4ever]

No, some European fans just saw guys like Dalipagic, Galis, Kosic, Belov, Meneghin or any number of other players play in Europe and know they were as good or better than Dirk. Unlike Americans or NBA only fans (people from anywhere that only watch NBA) that don't know shit about the subject.
Who the hell are those guys? Look the '92 Dream Team has completely settled history. All basketball outside the NBA before 1992 is a joke basically. NBA players COMPLETELY dominated all competition and the 90s Dream Teams proved it. Now, after 2000, with more exposure of internationals to NBA players, things have gradually changed.

[LAZERUSS]

Who the hell are those guys? Look the '92 Dream Team has completely settled history. All basketball outside the NBA before 1992 is a joke basically. NBA players COMPLETELY dominated all competition and the 90s Dream Teams proved it. Now, after 2000, with more exposure of internationals to NBA players, things have gradually changed.


:applause: :applause: :applause:

And yes, Dirk is the greatest "Euro" of all-time, albeit, he was never much of a "Euro" to begin with.

[WallIn]

He is

[DMAVS41]

Dirk being your favorite player of all time and your bias may be able to argue Dirk over Moses, Karl, and Dr. J, but nobody with an objective opinion is putting Dirk over those three players.

Well, that just isn't true...I've seen many people put Dirk over Malone all time.

In fact, that just isn't controversial at all.

The other two would be way more controversial, but I think you'd be surprised just how close Dirk would be to those guys on updated GOAT lists.

Nobody would have put Dirk in the company of certain guys 5 years ago, but we aren't 5 years ago.

We'll see what happens...a case can be made now. And depending on how Dirk finishes his career out...that case will either remain a weaker one...or a stronger one.

We'll just have to wait and see.

This year has been a pretty good year though for year 16. 22/6/3 on essentially 50/40/90 and he's led a team to the verge of playoffs that is a flawed roster in one of the best and deepest conferences in NBA history. Regardless what happens the next two games...this has been an all time by Dirk this season.

[moe94]

Since when was career playoff choker like Karl untouchable to Dirk:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Dirk was a playoff choker, too. One playoffs and all of a sudden Dirk is the greatest player of all time. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Dirk was a playoff choker, too. One playoffs and all of a sudden Dirk is the greatest player of all time. :oldlol:

Dirk was never a playoff choker.

You do realize it's the exact opposite. One playoffs and all of a sudden Dirk is a playoff choker?

You play one bad series, while you dad is having majory surgery...with a flawed team against a nightmare matchup with one of the worst coaches in the league...that doesn't make you a choker.

You are talking about a 26/10/3 58.4% TS career playoff player. Who had one of the most clutch playoff runs of all time. That has seen his team overachieve more often than underachieve.

Undefeated in game 7's (5-0)

And a top elimination game player of all time.

Nothing about Dirk's resume overall even before 2011 screamed playoff choker. It was all based on a one off series that couldn't have had crazier circumstances...

I guess Lebron can't be ranked over Karl Malone...because Lebron's 2011 finals is far worse than anything Dirk ever did in his career in the playoffs. Far worse...it's not even close...

[moe94]

Dirk was never a playoff choker.

You do realize it's the exact opposite. One playoffs and all of a sudden Dirk is a playoff choker?

You play one bad series, while you dad is having majory surgery...with a flawed team against a nightmare matchup with one of the worst coaches in the league...that doesn't make you a choker.

You are talking about a 26/10/3 58.4% TS career playoff player. Who had one of the most clutch playoff runs of all time. That has seen his team overachieve more often than underachieve.

Undefeated in game 7's (5-0)

And a top elimination game player of all time.

Nothing about Dirk's resume overall even before 2011 screamed playoff choker. It was all based on a one off series that couldn't have had crazier circumstances...

I guess Lebron can't be ranked over Karl Malone...because Lebron's 2011 finals is far worse than anything Dirk ever did in his career in the playoffs. Far worse...it's not even close...

I'd argue losing in the Finals is somehow better than losing in the first round as the number 1 seed.

[moaz]

Add in the fact that Dirk is not from one of the traditional European basketball countries and you get more animosity. It would be similar to the best European football player of all-time being from Iceland. Football fans from Germany, Italy, France, Spain and England would always argue for their guys, but deep down they know. The guy from Iceland is the best.

Bet comment on ISH about the "Euro GOAT" issue. East European/Balkan/Greek fans will never accept nor believe that a German might be better than their childhood idols. You won't be able to even discuss the subject with them.

topic: yes (has a case for top 20), yes and yes.

And Kukoc was better than Drazen

[eklip]

Dirk was a playoff choker, too. One playoffs and all of a sudden Dirk is the greatest player of all time. :oldlol:
Karl Malone in regular season:
25.0 ppg (24.2 per 36 min), .577 TS%

Karl Malone in post season:
24.7 ppg (21.7 per 36 min), .526 TS%

Malone was a very good regular season scorer and inefficient in the playoffs.

Dirk:
RS: 22.5 ppg (22.6 per 36 min), .582 TS%
PS: 25.9 ppg (22.6 per 36 min), .584 TS%

The missing championship wasn't the only reason why Malone earned the "choker" label.

[DMAVS41]

I'd argue losing in the Finals is somehow better than losing in the first round as the number 1 seed.

Absolutely it's better to make the finals, but that doesn't change the fact that Lebron played objectively worse than Dirk did comparing those two series.

And was even worse in 07. And he quit on his team in the Celtics series.

You really think he should be labeled a playoff choker? Of course not.



I don't even really care to defend Dirk about 07 much. It's not nearly the worst thing ever like people make it out to be. He got stuck playing a nightmare matchup with a shit coach and a severely over-rated team. Dirk played like complete shit and deserves blame.

But that series does not change reality. Reality is that Dirk is one of the best playoff players ever and absolutely one of the most clutch. Even with that series and his inept game 6 elimination game...Dirk still grades out as one of the toughest individual players to stop in any situation in playoff history.

11 didn't change anything...it just validated what Dirk fans and people that watched him play from 01 on knew. Give this guy a legit roster in the playoffs and he's going to make a lot of noise. You saw this throughout his career.

01 upset the Jazz
02 dominate the KG led wolves
03 dominate two game 7's and make the WCF
06 upset the title favorite Spurs and play an all time great game 7
09 upset the Spurs and have arguably his best series of his career 34//12/4 against the Nuggets
11 win the title as a 20 to 1 underdog and have the most clutch playoff run since early 90's MJ

Again, you have two years in which the Mavs did not meet or exceed playoff expectations. 07 and 10.

And honestly 10 shouldn't even count, but that is fine if we count 09 as overachieving...just should be mentioned that Dirk was great against the Spurs and it wasn't close to his fault.

[duskovujosevic]

cut the crap with balkan players.

Dirk is the GOAT european player in the NBA. This is the fact. Numbers don't lie

[duskovujosevic]

Drazen's last season with the Nets was less than stellar (knee) and he was a unidimensional (no defense) player compared to Kukoc. He was the best European scorer ever, period..He was the best European scorer ever, period.


False. That was Galis.

so we cant go back to 70's and 80's to start debate and i would say it was kicanovic. every era has its best player. NBA is something else. dirk's accomplishment won't be excelled for another 50 years

[mr.big35]

Dirk being your favorite player of all time and your bias may be able to argue Dirk over Moses, Karl, and Dr. J, but nobody with an objective opinion is putting Dirk over those three players.

thats the problem with him he cant see any faults with dirk and he some how thinks dirk is better than KG he should be in comedy with those statements

[mr.big35]

Dirk was a playoff choker, too. One playoffs and all of a sudden Dirk is the greatest player of all time. :oldlol:

the number dirk fans is the team is not stacked even though they win 50 plus games somehow he cant get passed 2nd round most of the time.

[DMAVS41]

the number dirk fans is the team is not stacked even though they win 50 plus games somehow he cant get passed 2nd round most of the time.

Regular season is not a great indicator of playoff success...see the Spurs from 08 through 13.

But even if we grant that. Again, the Mavs got upset twice. Once by the Warriors...and once by the Spurs.

So what are you talking about?

Please stop willingly remaining ignorant.

On your own metric the Mavs were over-achievers in the playoffs. We advanced farther than expected in 01, 06, 09, and 11...that is 4 vs 2 moron.

Not to mention 50/50 series like the 02 Wolves and 03 kings.

And even worse for you...in the 10 upset. Dirk was great...and his so-called great team was horrid.

Dirk drops 27/8/3 64% TS on the Spurs and his teammates suck ass...and it's on him? LOL

Dirk had a 34/12/4 66% TS series in 09 and we lost in 5.

Yea, his teams were loaded...

The Mavs without Dirk since 01 have a minus 3.6 scoring differential. Dat stacked Dirk help doe...made even more unimpressive by the fact that we never bottomed out. We've been really good since 01. That is pathetic...one ****ing year in which the Mavs had a positive scoring differential without Dirk.

06;

Plus 8.4 with Dirk
Plus .2 without Dirk

Pathetic...

[BIZARRO]

Okay, let's put this together:

You posted this:



That's Nice and all...but from 2000 - 2012 Kobe's playoff averages are 27.8PPG 5.3REB and 4.9 ast...

11 seasons and 7 NBA Finals with 5 championships to boot. All while carrying Shaq and the Lakers in the 4th Quarters.

Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29% ...who carried who?


but wait there is more..


Kobe has 6 seasons where he played 19 or more playoff games....

Dirk has 9 seasons where he played 10 games or less ( outta 12 seasons)

Kobe has 4 runs of over 30ppg 5reb 5ast , 1 run of 30ppg 4reb and 4ast and 2 runs of 29PPG 6reb 5ast

Dirks best Playoff's were 28PPG 2 ast and 13reb...he did that once...and only played 8 games.

Career totals are pointless in this debate...but then again Bullets fans have little peepee's:confusedshrug:

Then I posted this:
(Calling you out, because you were trying to make it sound like Kobe had these stats throughout the years and never indicated any years or series, or anything different):


Where did you find that stat? I find that really hard to believe. I'll eat crow if you can show me the evidence. But until then, I don't believe it, or at least the way you're skewing it. Over 1 series maybe, but not over the 11 years.
NO WAY, but I'd love to see the evidence you got for that stat.

So basically I caught you in a flat out lie, or WAY confusion riddled meaning for a stat.

Then you post:

No it was for the 01' 02 ' playoff's...when Kobe became the #1 option in crunchtime/facilitator of the triangle.



To which I now post:

NO it wasn't. It was not for the '02 SPURS SERIES ONLY, NOT the whole '01-'02 playoffs.



To which I now conclude:

You JUST LIED AGAIN ON YOUR RESPONSE TO YOUR ORIGINAL LIE. You are an adult. I assume. Stop lying on message boards. Really stop. Not cool. You can make your points without having to resort to lying.

Listen, Kobe stats in the playoffs are wildly erratic for a player so highly thought of. And I am actually a big fan of his, and have him up pretty high on my all-time list.
But when you make up things on the internet, someone, like me in this case is going to research and call you on it.

Even worse, you followed your original lie, with ANOTHER lie in your response.

How can you expect to be respected in your opinions when you quote stats with absolutely no context and are crazy misleading. Prove me wrong, and I'll eat crow, but I just looked it up.

I mean, what you posted would be like me saying from '86-'98, did you know MJ avg. 41 points a game in the playoffs? (Because he did in one series against Phoenix in '93) That is the equivalent. And then if called on it I reply, no it was for the '93 playoffs. (Which, NO it wasn't)

Listen, I can stand bad arguments, I can stand bad opinions, etc. but I can't stand telling flat out LIES you think no one is going to call you on.

You are an adult. Stop telling lies on the internet.

[Euroleague]

Was Kukoc considered a good defender in Europe? He was absolutely awful in the NBA. Also, Kukoc at his absolute best in the NBA couldn't carry Dirk's gym bag, so I'm not seeing how he would have developed into the better player had he arrived at a younger age. In his one year as the man he led the Bulls to worst record in the league. That wasn't all his fault, and he put up decent numbers, but clearly he wasn't someone you could build a contender around. He was only 30-31 at the time, so it wasn't due to him being over the hill. The myth-making is getting out of hand here.

Dirk was never that good in EuroBasket. So don't even go there. He's good in NBA, where no one ever plays defense.

[Euroleague]

Who the hell are those guys? Look the '92 Dream Team has completely settled history. All basketball outside the NBA before 1992 is a joke basically. NBA players COMPLETELY dominated all competition and the 90s Dream Teams proved it. Now, after 2000, with more exposure of internationals to NBA players, things have gradually changed.

Sub 60 IQ guy shows up again.

[Euroleague]

Bet comment on ISH about the "Euro GOAT" issue. East European/Balkan/Greek fans will never accept nor believe that a German might be better than their childhood idols. You won't be able to even discuss the subject with them.

topic: yes (has a case for top 20), yes and yes.

And Kukoc was better than Drazen

Just about every single European basketball historian says Belov was the best European player ever and not Dirk. No matter what country they are from.

STFU with your bullshit.

[Euroleague]

cut the crap with balkan players.

Dirk is the GOAT european player in the NBA. This is the fact. Numbers don't lie

Of course he is. There is no doubt about that.

They did not say he was the best ever in NBA. And that's not what people here are saying.

They said he was the best European player ever to play ANYWHERE and that is what people here are claiming.

TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS.

Kosic was before my time...way before it, so I have never put him above Dirk ever, and I will not - it's not fair or right to do so, since it is before my time.

But just as an example, I have watched many of his games, and he was vastly more skilled of a big man than Dirk and much better on defense.

That's just ONE example. And we are talking from all of the history of European players? Come the hell on.

Of course Dirk is the best European to play in the NBA. It's not even close.

But if we are talking about in terms of everything...........hell NO.

It's insulting that Americans and NBA only fans (people that only watch NBA regardless of where they are from) keep saying this.

NBA is NOT the ONLY thing that matters in basketball.

And just from players I saw in Europe, no way in hell was Dirk better than guys like Dalipagic or Galis or whatever. It's complete bullshit from anyone who says otherwise.

These same guys would say Giannis is the best Greek player ever.

[Euroleague]

so we cant go back to 70's and 80's to start debate and i would say it was kicanovic. every era has its best player. NBA is something else. dirk's accomplishment won't be excelled for another 50 years

Dirk can't score a basket whenever he needs one against FIBA defense. Galis could. You are kidding yourself.

Dirk has struggled almost every time he played a good FIBA team. He's not even Navarro or Spanoulis or Pau in FIBA to be honest.

Just compare Dirk to Durant in FIBA.......it's like not even in the same discussion.

Dirk is a definite NBA player, just like LeBron. Those guys that need the NBA rules to maximize what they do.

Galis could score against any defense, against any team, with any rules. He could get a basket any time he wanted to, against anyone.

Dirk is nowhere close to the scorer Galis was. He's a much better shooter than Galis was. You are confusing the two.

Besides that, this does not even mention Schmidt, due to that he was from Brazil and no one ever mentions him in these discussions, even though he was German heritage. But the fact was he played for many many years in Europe.

So Schmidt never gets mentioned, even though he played all those years in Europe and was playing with German heritage, as a German. Of course he's Brazilian, but let's not forget, when we talk about scoring this and scoring that.........

Oscar was scoring then too. People get overly obsessed with Dirk and his shooting and scoring as a stretch four big man in NBA today. Oscar would be a 6-10 stretch four in NBA today and he would score more than Dirk ever did and be a better shooter than Dirk with more range.

My point being that NBA fans are too fascinated with NBA players today and overrate them too much. LeBron has to be better than Bird and Magic, etc. Don't get caught up in this crap.

NBA has no defensive 3 seconds rule, they allow no contact, the refs decide the games, and they have no hand checking. It's the biggest ***** league there is. Beverley even said it. He said Greek League was much tougher and harder to score in than NBA. Same thing Rubio said about Euroleague compared to NBA.

So just remember that when you watch Dirk......he's playing in the candy ass soft pansy league.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Regular season is not a great indicator of playoff success...see the Spurs from 08 through 13.

But even if we grant that. Again, the Mavs got upset twice. Once by the Warriors...and once by the Spurs.

So what are you talking about?

Please stop willingly remaining ignorant.

On your own metric the Mavs were over-achievers in the playoffs. We advanced farther than expected in 01, 06, 09, and 11...that is 4 vs 2 moron.

Not to mention 50/50 series like the 02 Wolves and 03 kings.

And even worse for you...in the 10 upset. Dirk was great...and his so-called great team was horrid.

Dirk drops 27/8/3 64% TS on the Spurs and his teammates suck ass...and it's on him? LOL

Dirk had a 34/12/4 66% TS series in 09 and we lost in 5.

Yea, his teams were loaded...

The Mavs without Dirk since 01 have a minus 3.6 scoring differential. Dat stacked Dirk help doe...made even more unimpressive by the fact that we never bottomed out. We've been really good since 01. That is pathetic...one ****ing year in which the Mavs had a positive scoring differential without Dirk.

06;

Plus 8.4 with Dirk
Plus .2 without Dirk

Pathetic...

So you expected Melo's nuggets to beat Dirks Mavs in 09?

It wasn't a surprise when Cp3 bounced the Mavs in 08?

It was most definitely an upset when the HEAT beat the Mavs in 06..

Dirks former side kick Steve Nash obliterating Dirk's team and bouncing Dirk in 05 wasn't an upset?

[dr.hee]

Dirk was never that good in EuroBasket. So don't even go there. He's good in NBA, where no one ever plays defense.

Which makes VSpan look even more like the scrub he is :applause:

Totally sucked even though no one ever plays defense :facepalm

[eklip]

Dirk was never that good in EuroBasket. So don't even go there. He's good in NBA, where no one ever plays defense.
He was the top scorer in three EuroBasket tournaments and probably in the top 5 in the others, he was an MVP and won the silver medal

He did all this with elite efficiency while being double and triple teamed all the time, because he had no good teammates.

As a german I watched most of his EuroBasket performances and he was brilliant most of the time. He also played two tournaments with injuries: Knee problems in 2011 and a foot injury in 2003 or 2005 (can't remember)

It's pretty obvious that you never watched Dirk in EuroBasket.

[dr.hee]

He was the top scorer in three EuroBasket tournaments and probably in the top 5 in the others, he was an MVP and won the silver medal

He did all this with elite efficiency while being double and triple teamed all the time, because he had no good teammates.

As a german I watched most of his EuroBasket performances and he was brilliant most of the time. He also played two tournaments with injuries: Knee problems in 2011 and a foot injury in 2003 or 2005 (can't remember)

It's pretty obvious that you never watched Dirk in EuroBasket.

http://www.basketball-bund.de/wp-content/uploads/images/3_45734.jpg

http://www.basketball-bund.de/wp-content/uploads/images/3_44585.jpg

http://mediadb.kicker.de/news/1000/1200/36000/artikel/563527/hamann_garrett.jpg

Was always fun to watch Dirk+scrubs back in the day :cheers:

[fpliii]

Dirk was never that good in EuroBasket. So don't even go there. He's good in NBA, where no one ever plays defense.
Euroleague - Can you expand on this? Not trolling, just interesting in the specifics of your POV here.

[Euroleague]

Which makes VSpan look even more like the scrub he is :applause:

Totally sucked even though no one ever plays defense :facepalm

Spanoulis played defense every time he was in an NBA game, which is one of the reasons he was benched and his career was purposely sabotaged.

They can't have that in the NBA.

[DirkNowitzki41]

dirk is top 20.

dont know why theres 11 pages

/thread

[dr.hee]

Spanoulis played defense every time he was in an NBA game, which is one of the reasons he was benched and his career was purposely sabotaged.

They can't have that in the NBA.

Well he kinda played defense. But for the wrong team. That's why they benched him. He was shutting his team down. Nobody held the Rockets to worse shooting numbers than VSpan. DPOY by accident if you will.

[Euroleague]

Euroleague - Can you expand on this? Not trolling, just interesting in the specifics of your POV here.


He was the top scorer in three EuroBasket tournaments and probably in the top 5 in the others, he was an MVP and won the silver medal

He did all this with elite efficiency while being double and triple teamed all the time, because he had no good teammates.

As a german I watched most of his EuroBasket performances and he was brilliant most of the time. He also played two tournaments with injuries: Knee problems in 2011 and a foot injury in 2003 or 2005 (can't remember)

It's pretty obvious that you never watched Dirk in EuroBasket.

He put up some meaningless stats in crap teams, that were mostly crap because of his choking. He never did shit when it mattered. He struggled against good teams. He could not score with an athletic wing on him.

He could not score with a help defender on him.

Never a true double team or triple team...........that's made up bullshit.

His teams were much better than people claimed, as they played better without him.

His team got exponentially better as soon as he left it. Germany played better without him.

His stats for his usage were basically total shit.

I watched all of those EuroBasket games, and he was never even 1/3 as good in EuroBasket as he is in even a down year in the NBA. And he sees more defensive pressure in NBA than he did in FIBA.

They usually single covered him with an athletic wing defender and that was it, and occasionally sent a help defender after he caught the ball if he tried to post up, which was not too often, as he usually shot jumpers or did face up moves, or high post.

Dirk's "domination" in FIBA is one of the single biggest legends and myths ever concocted by NBA only fans and NBA bullshit gimmick marketing.

[Euroleague]

Well he kinda played defense. But for the wrong team. That's why they benched him. He was shutting his team down. Nobody held the Rockets to worse shooting numbers than VSpan. DPOY by accident if you will.

Go sieg heil your Mengele poster.

[Euroleague]

http://www.basketball-bund.de/wp-content/uploads/images/3_45734.jpg

http://www.basketball-bund.de/wp-content/uploads/images/3_44585.jpg

http://mediadb.kicker.de/news/1000/1200/36000/artikel/563527/hamann_garrett.jpg

Was always fun to watch Dirk+scrubs back in the day :cheers:

Yeah, fun to watch those scrubs play better without him.

[dr.hee]

Yeah fun to watch those scrubs play better without him.

With Dirk -> Bronze at World Cup, Silver at Eurobasket...

What did team Germany achieve after Nowitzki?

Oh, and two of the players in the pics (Pascal Roller, Robert Garrett) retired after the 2008 Olympics. So they couldn't play better after Dirk semi retired, because they did as well. Didn't even play a tournament after that. And the other one, Patrick Femerling, played only in the Euros 2009 without Dirk, where Germany finished 11th.

So not surprisingly, you have no f*cking clue about anything. Do you watch any basketball dude?

[Euroleague]

With Dirk -> Bronze at World Cup, Silver at Eurobasket...

What did team Germany achieve after Nowitzki?

Yeah, New Zealand was 4th............AMAZING.

:rolleyes:

What has New Zealand done since?

:facepalm

[dr.hee]

Go sieg heil your Mengele poster.

Thanks for finally realizing I'm in fact German :cheers:

[fpliii]

He put up some meaningless stats in crap teams, that were mostly crap because of his choking. He never did shit when it mattered. He struggled against good teams. He could not score with an athletic wing on him.

He could not score with a help defender on him.

Never a true double team or triple team...........that's made up bullshit.

His teams were much better than people claimed, as they played better without him.

His team got exponentially better as soon as he left it. Germany played better without him.

His stats for his usage were basically total shit.

I watched all of those EuroBasket games, and he was never even 1/3 as good in EuroBasket as he is in even a down year in the NBA. And he sees more defensive pressure in NBA than he did in FIBA.

They usually single covered him with an athletic wing defender and that was it, and occasionally sent a help defender after he caught the ball if he tried to post up, which was not too often, as he usually shot jumpers or did face up moves, or high post.

Dirk's "domination" in FIBA is one of the single biggest legends and myths ever concocted by NBA only fans and NBA bullshit gimmick marketing.
Apologies if I was unclear. I believe you on Dirk, but I want to hear more about your comment on defense.

Don't you think that since Thibs was an assistant on those Celtics teams, defensive schemes have improved? Or do you feel the fact that you can't play proper zone, along with the goal tending rule (apologies if I'm incorrect here, but I believe there's no 3 seconds or goal tending in EL?) makes team defense weaker? Also, is hand-checking presently permitted in the EL?

[DMAVS41]

Euroleague...

Could I ask your point.

When most people say Dirk is the best Euro ever...they mean the Euro that had the best NBA career...and that is clearly Dirk.

They aren't really talking about FIBA or Eurobasket or any of that other stuff they are just ignorant about.

Also, you don't have to go to such extremes with Dirk. The Germany teams were not better without him.

[dr.hee]

Also, you don't have to go to such extremes with Dirk. The Germany teams were not better without him.

Euroleague wouldn't even find Germany on a map if his life depended on it.

I've watched most of the national team games of Dirk and it's amazing that these scrub teams won two medals.

[duskovujosevic]

euroleague uses every thred to put his agenda ahead

dirk nowitzki in fiba competitions

- 1996 european championship for junior
18.6 PPG,6.3 RPG, 1.7 APG

- 1998 European Championship for Men '22 and Under'
18PPG, 7.20 RPG 0.5 APG

- 1999 European Championship for Men
15.2 PPG, 3.4 RPG 1.8 APG

- 2001 European Championship for Men
28.7PPG, 9.1 RPG 1.9 APG

- 2002 World Championship for Men
24 8.2 2.7

-2003 European Championship for Men
22.5 6.2 1

- 2005 EuroBasket
26.1 10.6 1.7

- 2006 FIBA World Championship
23.2 9.2 2.8

- 2007 EuroBasket
24 8.7 1.6

- 2008 Olympic Games: Tournament Men
17 8.4 0.6

- 2011 EuroBasket
19.5 6.6 1.4

Stop trolling every thread for promoting your hilarious agenda. Dirk can't compete in FIBA comeptiotions hahahaah
Epic dose of bullshit

[duskovujosevic]

and yes he caried his team on every competition he appeared.

[Euroleague]

Thanks for finally realizing I'm in fact German :cheers:

Most Nazis don't live in Germany. And thanks for admitting that you are a Nazi.

[dr.hee]

Most Nazis don't live in Germany. And thanks for admitting that you are a Nazi.

I don't know since I'm from Germany, so...

By the way, you're extra aggressive this weekend. What's up?

[eklip]

It's pretty obvious that Euroleague has no clue about basketball.

Dirk is the player with the highest scoring averages in the FIBA World Championship and in EuroBasket (10+ games) in the last two decades, he won two MVPs and two medals, but for some reason Euroleague thinks that he isn't good in FIBA competitions or against FIBA defenses. It's funny.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_Nowitzki#International_career):
"In the 2001 FIBA European Championships, Nowitzki was top scorer with 28.7 points per game, and narrowly lost the MVP vote to Serbian player Peja Stojaković. [...] Germany then lost 99–90 against Spain, and did not win a medal. However, with averages of 28.7 points and 9.1 rebounds, Nowitzki led the tournament in both statistics, and was voted to the All-Star team."

"Nowitzki finally earned his first medal when he led Germany to a bronze medal in the 2002 World Championships. In the quarter-finals against the Pau Gasol-led Spain, Spain was up 52–46 after three quarters, but then Nowitzki scored 10 points in the last quarter and led Germany to a 70–62 win."

"In the 2005 FIBA European Championships, Nowitzki came back strong. He surprisingly led a depleted German squad into the Finals, beating title favorites Slovenia in the quarter-finals and Spain in the semi-finals on the way. Eurobasket pundits praised Nowitzki in both matches: against Slovenia (76–62), the forward scored a game high 22 points and commented: "The Slovenians underestimated us. They said we were the team they wanted and that was wrong, you shouldn't do that in the quarter-finals."[98] Against Spain (74–73), Nowitzki scored a game-high 27 points and scored the decisive basket: down by one and with only a few seconds to go, he drove on Spanish forward Jorge Garbajosa, and hit a baseline jump shot over Garbajosa's outstretched arms with 3.9 seconds to go. The German later commented: "It was indescribable. Garbajosa kind of pushed me towards the baseline so I just went with it."[98] Despite losing the Finals, 78–62, to the Greeks, Nowitzki was the tournament's leading scorer (26.7 ppg) and second-leading rebounder (10.8 rpg) and shot blocker (1.8 bpg), and was voted Most Valuable Player of the tournament.[99] When he was subbed out towards the end of the final, Nowitzki received standing ovation from the crowd, which he later recalled as "one of the best moments of [his] career".[100] In the 2006 FIBA World Championships, Nowitzki led the German team to an eighth place and commented: "It's tough luck. But overall, finishing eighth in the world is not bad."[101]"

"In the 2007 FIBA European Championships, in which the top three teams automatically qualified for the 2008 Olympics, Nowitzki led Germany to a fifth place. He was the leading scorer with 24.0 points per game.[102] The fifth place meant that Germany fell short of direct qualification, but was allowed to participate in the 2008 Olympic Qualifying Tournament. Nowitzki led Germany into a decisive match against Puerto Rico for the last remaining slot. In that crucial match, he scored a game-high 32 points and was vital for the 96–82 win which sent the German basketball team to their first Olympics since the 1992 Summer Olympics."

[dr.hee]

[QUOTE=eklip]It's pretty obvious that Euroleague has no clue about basketball.

Dirk is the player with the highest scoring averages in the FIBA World Championship and in EuroBasket (10+ games) in the last two decades, he won two MVPs and two medals, but for some reason Euroleague thinks that he isn't good in FIBA competitions or against FIBA defenses. It's funny.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_Nowitzki#International_career):
"In the 2001 FIBA European Championships, Nowitzki was top scorer with 28.7 points per game, and narrowly lost the MVP vote to Serbian player Peja Stojaković. [...] Germany then lost 99

[raiderfan19]

Jordan
KAJ
Wilt
Russell
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Dream
Kobe
LeBron
Oscar
Malone
Moses
Dr. J
West

16 off the top of the head in no particular order. Who does he have a case over? :kobe:
Dr j easily

[Euroleague]

Apologies if I was unclear. I believe you on Dirk, but I want to hear more about your comment on defense.

Don't you think that since Thibs was an assistant on those Celtics teams, defensive schemes have improved? Or do you feel the fact that you can't play proper zone, along with the goal tending rule (apologies if I'm incorrect here, but I believe there's no 3 seconds or goal tending in EL?) makes team defense weaker? Also, is hand-checking presently permitted in the EL?

What I am saying is that due to NBA rules and the way the NBA is reffed, basically defense is outlawed now. The combination of the defensive 3 seconds, the no hand check and that stuff, but also how the refs call the games.

There is so little contact allowed for the defenders, while the guy with the ball can just pile his way into the defense (Wade, Harden).

Then there are those guys that you simply can't touch (LeBron, Dirk, Durant) and so forth.

NBA is a free throw shooting contest and it is "star driven" and a "superstar league". And the way the rules are, it's basically become impossible to defend point guards, keep the ball out of the paint, and to defend the pick and roll.

Rubio explained that when he said it's just easier to play offense in the NBA because of the rules, it allows much more space and room and less contact.

And the added effect has been that then that many teams have realized this and have decided that the smart thing to do is to simply refuse to play defense at all and just focus entirely on scoring.

Rockets, Spurs, Lakers......teams that used to focus on defense that now would not play a single second of defense probably in an entire season. And on down the line.

As for teams like the Bulls and that style of Thibodeau - he's limited by the rules. I mean you can't basically defend the paint under NBA rules and you can't really keep guard out of the lane. So that style of play is limited. It's like it's fighting against itself.

I get what the NBA is trying to do. It does not want those Knicks versus Heat games from the late '90s to happen anymore and I get that. And there are games now in Euroleague or any really slow grind it out physical defense domestic leagues in Europe like Greek League that get that way too much now in Europe. And this happens too much also in FIBA EuroBasket.

There has to be some kind of balance. So I understand the NBA's thinking on it. But the NBA is like a million miles too far on it. They turned the NBA into some kind of and1 league almost.

It's more 50% WWE and 50% sports. But supposedly the FBI even said the NBA could not get in any trouble for the Donaghi thing because they said the NBA is not sports but "sports entertainment" just like WWE.

And that's what it is when you watch it. There is virtually no defense at all and the now players can travel and carry the ball endlessly. And the whole thing with Durant or Harden can get 15 to 20 free throws every game on top of it.

The thing that is most hilarious is that every time an NBA only fan supposedly "watches" a Euroleague game, they always claim the same thing - "the defense is horrible", "no one plays any defense", "the defense is horrific", "every single shot is wide open", etc."

I watch NBA and Euroleague every week and even the very worst Euroleague teams on defense like say a Bayern Munich, are defensive aces compared to most NBA teams. yet the average NBA fan would say they would be horrific to even the worst NBA team on defense.

It's because NBA only fans are delusional. They are brainwashed into this "NBA athletes are superior", "NBA players are super skilled" bullshit that they can't see what is right in front of them - no one is playing defense and the rules allow wide open shots and easy launches for dunks.

Even when the subject comes for NCAA difference to NBA people can't grasp the difference. Of course players look 100 times "more athletic" when they don't have to dribble and no one guards them. But NBA fans can't seem to grasp that simple concept.

If Euroleague players had no defensive 3 seconds, no hand check, a wider court, did not have to dribble, and no one guarded them, then yeah, they would look "vastly superior athletically too" because they would also be dunking everything too. It's a very simple concept to grasp, but NBA only fans seem completely incapable of grasping it.

NBA isn't a better quality league, it's just a flying circus.

[Euroleague]

I don't think they can watch Euro ball in Arkansas.

Wikipedia, the last refuse of the clown trolls.

It's amazing how the "Euro GOAT" played in so many FIBA tournaments and never once won any of them.

Dirk the "Euro GOAT" and his FIBA loser legacy...................

"Euro GOAT", despite never winning a damn thing ever in Euro competition.

[fpliii]

What I am saying is that due to NBA rules and the way the NBA is reffed, basically defense is outlawed now. The combination of the defensive 3 seconds, the no hand check and that stuff, but also how the refs call the games.

There is so little contact allowed for the defenders, while the guy with the ball can just pile his way into the defense (Wade, Harden).

Then there are those guys that you simply can't touch (LeBron, Dirk, Durant) and so forth.

NBA is a free throw shooting contest and it is "star driven" and a "superstar league". And the way the rules are, it's basically become impossible to defend point guards, keep the ball out of the paint, and to defend the pick and roll.

Rubio explained that when he said it's just easier to play offense in the NBA because of the rules, it allows much more space and room and less contact.

And the added effect has been that then that many teams have realized this and have decided that the smart thing to do is to simply refuse to play defense at all and just focus entirely on scoring.

Rockets, Spurs, Lakers......teams that used to focus on defense that now would not play a single second of defense probably in an entire season. And on down the line.

As for teams like the Bulls and that style of Thibodeau - he's limited by the rules. I mean you can't basically defend the paint under NBA rules and you can't really keep guard out of the lane. So that style of play is limited. It's like it's fighting against itself.

I get what the NBA is trying to do. It does not want those Knicks versus Heat games from the late '90s to happen anymore and I get that. And there are games now in Euroleague or any really slow grind it out physical defense domestic leagues in Europe like Greek League that get that way too much now in Europe. And this happens too much also in FIBA EuroBasket.

There has to be some kind of balance. So I understand the NBA's thinking on it. But the NBA is like a million miles too far on it. They turned the NBA into some kind of and1 league almost.

It's more 50% WWE and 50% sports. But supposedly the FBI even said the NBA could not get in any trouble for the Donaghi thing because they said the NBA is not sports but "sports entertainment" just like WWE.

And that's what it is when you watch it. There is virtually no defense at all and the now players can travel and carry the ball endlessly. And the whole thing with Durant or Harden can get 15 to 20 free throws every game on top of it.

The thing that is most hilarious is that every time an NBA only fan supposedly "watches" a Euroleague game, they always claim the same thing - "the defense is horrible", "no one plays any defense", "the defense is horrific", "every single shot is wide open", etc."

I watch NBA and Euroleague every week and even the very worst Euroleague teams on defense like say a Bayern Munich, are defensive aces compared to most NBA teams. yet the average NBA fan would say they would be horrific to even the worst NBA team on defense.

It's because NBA only fans are delusional. They are brainwashed into this "NBA athletes are superior", "NBA players are super skilled" bullshit that they can't see what is right in front of them - no one is playing defense and the rules allow wide open shots and easy launches for dunks.

Even when the subject comes for NCAA difference to NBA people can't grasp the difference. Of course players look 100 times "more athletic" when they don't have to dribble and no one guards them. But NBA fans can't seem to grasp that simple concept.

If Euroleague players had no defensive 3 seconds, no hand check, a wider court, did not have to dribble, and no one guarded them, then yeah, they would look "vastly superior athletically too" because they would also be dunking everything too. It's a very simple concept to grasp, but NBA only fans seem completely incapable of grasping it.

NBA isn't a better quality league, it's just a flying circus.
Thanks for the response. There's a lot of info here, so I'll have to read it closely before responding thoroughly.

[LoneyROY7]

Did Barkley concede that Dirk is better than him?

[Euroleague]

euroleague uses every thred to put his agenda ahead

dirk nowitzki in fiba competitions

- 1996 european championship for junior
18.6 PPG,6.3 RPG, 1.7 APG

- 1998 European Championship for Men '22 and Under'
18PPG, 7.20 RPG 0.5 APG

- 1999 European Championship for Men
15.2 PPG, 3.4 RPG 1.8 APG

- 2001 European Championship for Men
28.7PPG, 9.1 RPG 1.9 APG

- 2002 World Championship for Men
24 8.2 2.7

-2003 European Championship for Men
22.5 6.2 1

- 2005 EuroBasket
26.1 10.6 1.7

- 2006 FIBA World Championship
23.2 9.2 2.8

- 2007 EuroBasket
24 8.7 1.6

- 2008 Olympic Games: Tournament Men
17 8.4 0.6

- 2011 EuroBasket
19.5 6.6 1.4

Stop trolling every thread for promoting your hilarious agenda. Dirk can't compete in FIBA comeptiotions hahahaah
Epic dose of bullshit

Germany was much better team as soon as Dirk left. You did not watch them play at all if you deny that.

[Euroleague]

and yes he caried his team on every competition he appeared.

Then why did they play better as soon he left the team?

[duskovujosevic]

the didn't play at all.

fiba world championship in 2010 without dirk, eliminated in group stage.
fiba euro championship 2013 didn't qualify

in 2005 2nd
in 2002 3rd
in 2001 4th
in 2007 5th

and so on

to conclude GERMANY IS WORSE WITHOUT DIRK. PROVEN FACT

[truhooper]

top 25 sounds right

[Pointguard]

lets see dirks career when he plays with multiple HoFers in their primes. GTFO

kg has one ring, so where is this delusion stemming from? his multiple missed playoff appearances in his prime?

kg and wade must be the most overrated players ever

Dirk was in his prime when he faced third year(?) Wade and it wasn't remotely close. No multiple HOFers either.

And you have to be crazy to think it was. In Dirk's prime most people would have taken Wade over him.

KG was the best player in the game when three top ten GOAT players were in their prime. KG's teams in his prime were not designed for much in his prime and his front office was total crap. First year with a solid organization, he was past his prime, and it was one of the best defenses ever and definitely post hand check era. If he and Dirk never get a ring, there isn't much of a conversation as to who was better.

[AlphaWolf24]

Okay, let's put this together:

You posted this:




Then I posted this:
(Calling you out, because you were trying to make it sound like Kobe had these stats throughout the years and never indicated any years or series, or anything different):


Where did you find that stat? I find that really hard to believe. I'll eat crow if you can show me the evidence. But until then, I don't believe it, or at least the way you're skewing it. Over 1 series maybe, but not over the 11 years.
NO WAY, but I'd love to see the evidence you got for that stat.

So basically I caught you in a flat out lie, or WAY confusion riddled meaning for a stat.

Then you post:

No it was for the 01' 02 ' playoff's...when Kobe became the #1 option in crunchtime/facilitator of the triangle.



To which I now post:

NO it wasn't. It was not for the '02 SPURS SERIES ONLY, NOT the whole '01-'02 playoffs.



Listen, I can stand bad arguments, I can stand bad opinions, etc. but I can't stand telling flat out LIES you think no one is going to call you on.

You are an adult. Stop telling lies on the internet.

whoaah!...Hold up...

you callin people liars, You trying to call people out?

You responding to ME?.....ME?

But you don't call people out for saying "Kobe was carried":lol

We all can see right through Hater Fans like yourself.

- I was responding to troll!....showing Kobe was the #1 option in the 4th quarters for 2 of the 3 Title runs. ( forgive me I left in 00' I was typing fast and made wee wee mistake, But Kobe was still the man in Game 7 WCF..so don't matta none)


- Now I suggest you go back and check every game in the playoffs for the 4th quarters and OT.....

- You got all butthurt from me responding to a troll with correct FACTS!

- I suggest you recognize game when it's in your face.....
I can put up with dumb arguments...I can put up with liars...I can deal with serious biznazz on the interwebz....

But I can't deal with Haterz....

- you get all mad at me for pointing out Kobe was carrying the Lakers in Crunchtime...but you don't mind trolls who hate?...

:lol @ Jordan stans , again go back and check every 4th quarter and OT and Crunchtime and 5 minutes left with a 5pt differential and you will see Kobe was easily ahead of shaq


....Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29% during the 01' - 02' 2peat....who carried who?


also Kobe averaged 5.8 Pts in crunchtime with a 5 pt differential either way..Shaq averaged 1.7pts


eat crow...eat deez nutz!

[AlphaWolf24]

Anyone's stats look better when you ignore their bad games and focus on their good games. If Kobe's numbers really were better than Dirk's then you wouldn't feel the need to cherry pick.

I doubt Kobe would have had as many long playoff runs with Eric Dampier at center instead of Shaq. Dampier started next to Dirk for 6 years. Dampier's career playoff numbers are 5/6. Shaq's are 24/12.

And my point that Dirk's playoff numbers being better than Kobe's still stands. That is why you are trying to cherry pick stats and change the topic to team performance.


I aint done with this B!tch yet...

y'all done woke a Nikka up.



Kobe: 5 seasons of 28+ppg, 12 seasons of 5+ rpg, 8 seasons of 5+ apg with one 6+ (in the triangle) with only one season of 4+ TO, and a 55.7 career TS%.



Kobe's top playoff runs -

33/5/4 for 5 games
32/5/5 for 12 games
30/5/6 for 23 games
30/6/6 for 21 games
29/7/6 for 16 games
29/6/6 for 23 games
28/6/5 for 7 games
27/6/5 for 19 games

Now you can do Dirks since you trollin..:lol

(rubs hands together)...can't wait.

F@qqit azz busters.

[DMAVS41]

I don't think it needs to be complicated.

Just post everything.

Kobe became relevant in 00.

From 00 to present here are Kobe's playoff numbers;

28/5/5 54.3%TS 23.0 PER 110 ortg 106 drtg

Dirk's playoff numbers from o1 to present;

26/10/3 58.4% TS 24.7 PER 118 ortg 107 drtg


Kobe has never had an epic failure of a playoff run like Dirk had in 07...and although there are some legit excuses for Dirk...that needs to be mentioned.

Also needs to be mentioned that Kobe is a bit of a front runner and doesn't perform at the Dirk level in elimination games. Nothing to shrug off though...Dirk is one of the best elimination game and game 7 players ever.

Kobe has actually been fantastic in crunch time in the playoffs. I don't get why some are saying he hasn't...Kobe's struggles in the playoffs have come on game winners...not in crunch time. In crunch time he's been better than Dirk.

I have no idea who is the better playoff player. It's about as close as you can get in my opinion. I'd take Dirk, but of course I'm biased...but anyone saying that Dirk has no case here is a bit ignorant.

All that argument would amount to would be...5 rings!!!!!!!

[trueDS]

Apologies if I was unclear. I believe you on Dirk, but I want to hear more about your comment on defense.



No fplii, you shouldn't believe him on Dirk or anything else he's said here. He is totally nonobjective and completely wrong.

dr.hee on the other hand knows a lot about European basketball.

[Euroleague]

the didn't play at all.

fiba world championship in 2010 without dirk, eliminated in group stage.
fiba euro championship 2013 didn't qualify

in 2005 2nd
in 2002 3rd
in 2001 4th
in 2007 5th

and so on

to conclude GERMANY IS WORSE WITHOUT DIRK. PROVEN FACT

In other words, you didn't watch any of their games.

[Euroleague]

No fplii, you shouldn't believe him on Dirk or anything else he's said here. He is totally nonobjective and completely wrong.

dr.hee on the other hand knows a lot about European basketball.


He's never seen a Euroleague or EuroBasket game in his entire life.

[Dr.J4ever]

He's never seen a Euroleague or EuroBasket game in his entire life.
You've been clearly owned again on this thread. The Euros are ganging up on you. At a certain point, you have to give way to the facts, not just your biases and judgements.

I will give you credit. Some of your observations about the NBA are things we can agree on, but your envy, and bias overwhelm your views.

Relax. Clear your mind. We all know you love the NBA otherwise you wouldn't be here everyday debating us NBA lovers here on ISH. So let it show.

Maybe if you do, your idols Vspan and Borousis will eventually come over to the NBA like you've always dreamed off. Don't deny it. I know that thread.

[Silverbullit]

Dirk was never that good in EuroBasket. So don't even go there. He's good in NBA, where no one ever plays defense.

Dirk was top scorer in 2001, 2005 and 2007 in EuroBasket.
He also was MVP in 2005 and All Tournament Team in 2001, 2005 and 2007.

:confusedshrug:

[dr.hee]

Dirk was top scorer in 2001, 2005 and 2007 in EuroBasket.
He also was MVP in 2005 and All Tournament Team in 2001, 2005 and 2007.

:confusedshrug:

Well if Dirk was an Olympiacos player from Greece or Basque, or whatever minor league ethnicity Euroleague is identifying with, he'd be all over his dick. He really doesn't care about the game at all. Euroleague is special in one regard though...he's living vicariously through a bald headed chubby 3rd string point guard instead of Lebron, Kobe or Durant. At least that's something different, gotta give him credit for that.

[SexSymbol]

I just don't get it. What's the point in saying stuff, that you don't even believe in?
We all know Germanys NT without Dirk is absolute trash, and you still try to convince people with no evidence that it's the opposite.
Dirk didn't have that much success because his NT is completely useless without him, there's literally nothing worth mentioning there troughout 00s decade. Dirk singlehandedly brought them a few medals.

[dr.hee]

I just don't get it. What's the point in saying stuff, that you don't even believe in?
We all know Germanys NT without Dirk is absolute trash, and you still try to convince people with no evidence that it's the opposite.
Dirk didn't have that much success because his NT is completely useless without him, there's literally nothing worth mentioning there troughout 00s decade. Dirk singlehandedly brought them a few medals.

The teams were crappy. Okulaja was nice though. Peaked at 13/6, shooting 58% for Barcelona in Euro. Almost made it to the NBA, which didn't happen for unfortunate circumstances.

[SexSymbol]

The teams were crappy. Okulaja was nice though. Peaked at 13/6, shooting 58% for Barcelona in Euro. Almost made it to the NBA, which didn't happen for unfortunate circumstances.
Yeah, forgot okulaja. What else though? Nobody.
I remember Dirk scored like 40 against LT's NT and we still won. What else was he supposed to do. Everybody knew he was the best Euro players it's that just he never had navarro, marc to back him up.
Heck, spain's 2nd unit is better than what Dirk had to put up with.

[ILLsmak]

Do you agree with these statements?

I dunno if I posted in this thread already, but this is how I see it...

since I have said before I believe there are 'tiers' of basketball players. There are all of those GOAT level guys that are first tier... then there is second tier and third tier. I am unsure whether Dirk is 2nd or 3rd. He showed he was capable of at least 2nd in 2011, but it's hard to say over time if he was, his whole career.

Point being, if the first tier goes like 1-6 or 1-8, the second tier goes out maybe even past 25, to me at least. So, it's hard to say... cuz you will have people that will come in here and name 25 players who are "for sure better", but really, I think you can only name a few that are no contest better. Lemme try...

Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, Kareem, MJ... I'm probably taking Shaq and Bron, too. Those are no argument players. Can probably name many more with a really strong case. So, I'd say he's a 2nd tier all-time player... which is damn good. HES RIGHT THERE WITH KOBE. haha. Get troll'd.

-Smak

[Dr.J4ever]

The teams were crappy. Okulaja was nice though. Peaked at 13/6, shooting 58% for Barcelona in Euro. Almost made it to the NBA, which didn't happen for unfortunate circumstances.
EL will probably say none of the things and stats that Dirk got in Fiba ever happened. Just our illusions. We all got it from Wiki which is obviously drivel.EL lives in another world, a world no one can see except him.

It's a fantasy world where VSpan is the best player in the world,where the Greek NT dominates, where Eleague is better than the NBA, and where Belov is greater than Jordan:lol ...A world turned upside down. No one else lives in this world, except him..He wants us all to live in his world. Anybody want to join him?

Also, if he doesn't like the NBA, why can't he just leave? If he thinks we're all a bunch of racists with low iq's, why does he post here and try to ram Euro ball down our throats?

Sometime 2-3 years ago, he created a post hailing Vspan and Brousis(who? a Greek center) coming to the NBA, and he was bat shit happy.. Why would anyone celebrate coming over to an inferior league? Just weird.

[Dr.J4ever]

EL will probably say none of the things and stats that Dirk got in Fiba ever happened. Just our illusions. We all got it from Wiki which is obviously drivel.
EL lives in a another world, a world no one can see except him.

It's a fantasy world where VSpan is the best player in the world,where the Greek NT dominates, where Eleague is better than the NBA, and where Belov is greater than Jordan:lol ...A world turned upside down. No one else lives in this world, except him..He wants us all to live in his world. Anybody want to join him?

Also, if he doesn't like the NBA, why can't he just leave? If he thinks we're all a bunch of racists with low iq's, why does he post here and try to ram Euro ball down our throats?

Sometime 2-3 years ago, he created a post hailing Vspan and Brousis(who? a Greek center) coming to the NBA, and he was bat shit happy.. Why would anyone celebrate coming over to an inferior league? Just weird.

Here's the thread where EL was apoplectic with happiness when there was a "strong rumor" that VSpan was coming over to the Raptors...

He went: "yessssssssssss......." and other crazy stuff.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=277335

[Rooster]

Who the hell are those guys? Look the '92 Dream Team has completely settled history. All basketball outside the NBA before 1992 is a joke basically. NBA players COMPLETELY dominated all competition and the 90s Dream Teams proved it. Now, after 2000, with more exposure of internationals to NBA players, things have gradually changed.

This:applause:

Most of those old timers went life and death with our college players. Look at the Olympic results which is the only international competition that matters to us. Our teenagers lost only twice, one was controversial. Even the college version of Michael Jordan beat every one of those grown men by 28.1 points. Even those Yugoslavians can't beat our young bucks.

[Rooster]

Here's the thread where EL was apoplectic with happiness when there was a "strong rumor" that VSpan was coming over to the Raptors...

He went: "yessssssssssss......." and other crazy stuff.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=277335


NBA has no interest on VSpan. Why waste their time on someone who can't beat Skip, Head and Lucas on the rotation. We all know he can not play a lick in the pros. Just another minor league stud who can't hang in the highest level.