Barkley: Kawhi Leonard is a Top 10-15 Player

[Smook A.]

He just said it during the halftime show.

Kawhi Leonard is good but not that good. Barkley made himself look like a dumbass for saying that.

[Uchmanmamba24]

I actually agree with Chuck on this. Kawhi is mad underrated for real.

[ProfessorMurder]

Probably top 30-40 at the moment. Who knows what'll happen when he's really unleashed though?

[Smook A.]

I actually agree with Chuck on this. Kawhi is mad underrated for real.
Yeah but he's not a top 15 player. No way

I'd say he's around top 30

[navy]

Delusional.

[Tycriss]

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/visual/whatshot/KawhiProCharts.gif

[Smook A.]

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/visual/whatshot/KawhiProCharts.gif
Wow. Impressive

[SCdac]

He's probably factoring in potential and Kawhi's young age. And can tell Barkley was being complimentary in reaction to a post game highlight

Kawhi lead all players in boards tonight (16 rebounds, 6 offensive)... a game that included great rebounders like Duncan, Dirk, Dalembert, and Marion... and get the feeling (watching him closely) he's really only scratched the surface with his offensive game.

Still think Kawhi is about 2-3 years away from his prime. Most players like him hit their stride around 24-26, ala Gerald Wallace, Shawn Marion, etc. Let's just say, if we're talking Dynasty-leagues, Kawhi would go very high.

[TheMarkMadsen]

He's better than top 30.

top 14-20 this year

[SCdac]

It's also worth noting that crazy win streak of the Spurs not so coincidently coincided with Kawhi's return. He's def integral to the Spurs recent success. Averaged 15 ppg / 11 rpg / 2 spg in the NBA Finals last season

[T_L_P]

Barkley's thoughts on the Spurs are so moronic.

If he seriously thinks Kawhi is top 15, then he must also think the same of Duncan and Parker. Yet apparently they aren't good enough to make the Finals again (which they would be if they had three top 15 players).

[Ethem]

I highly doubt Kawhi is top 15 right now. However, the prime years for most NBA players is 27-32 years old. Kawhi is 22. He's improving greatly every year, and he is developing under arguably the greatest coach of all time. He seems to have that quiet hardworking humbleness that Duncan has. His ceiling is ridiculously high.

[zoom17]

Barkley's thoughts on the Spurs are so moronic.

If he seriously thinks Kawhi is top 15, then he must also think the same of Duncan and Parker. Yet apparently they aren't good enough to make the Finals again (which they would be if they had three top 15 players).

He doesn't like the spurs.

[SCdac]

Barkley's thoughts on the Spurs are so moronic.

If he seriously thinks Kawhi is top 15, then he must also think the same of Duncan and Parker. Yet apparently they aren't good enough to make the Finals again (which they would be if they had three top 15 players).

He didn't quite say "top 15", he said "top 10 to 15", insinuating he's in that area outside of the top 10. At least thats how I heard it. Either way, I'm assuming he's factoring in potential and whatnot. I got Kawhi in the top-25 current players for sure

[DMAVS41]

I'm trying to think where I would put him...I honestly don't know.

I know he's not top 15, but he's about as valuable as you can get for this Spurs team...he is literally the perfect player for what they need.

I doubt he's a top 25 player, but I'd have to think about it.

[DMAVS41]

Barkley's thoughts on the Spurs are so moronic.

If he seriously thinks Kawhi is top 15, then he must also think the same of Duncan and Parker. Yet apparently they aren't good enough to make the Finals again (which they would be if they had three top 15 players).

Yea. No kidding.

He isn't making sense.

3 top 15 players in the league with a great bench/depth and the best coach, by far, in the league...and he doesn't think they have enough to win? LOL

[Milbuck]

I have him comfortably in the top 25, arguably in the top 20. His defense is just phenomenal, and I think his offensive production is deceptive. His 13ppg doesn't look amazing, but I think on a team that gave him more freedom - a team that wasn't as balanced as SAS - he could definitely be a 18-20ppg scorer. I think when let loose he's an 18/7/3 player with arguably top 3-5 perimeter defense. That definitely warrants consideration for top 15-20, if you value defense.

[DMAVS41]

I have him comfortably in the top 25, arguably in the top 20. His defense is just phenomenal, and I think his offensive production is deceptive. His 13ppg doesn't look amazing, but I think on a team that gave him more freedom - a team that wasn't as balanced as SAS - he could definitely be a 18-20ppg scorer. I think when let loose he's an 18/7/3 player with arguably top 3-5 perimeter defense. That definitely warrants consideration for top 15-20, if you value defense.

could you list your top 25...i'm really interested in this

[Milbuck]

could you list your top 25...i'm really interested in this
No particular order

Durant
Lebron
Blake
CP3
Parker
Curry
Melo
Westbrook
Lillard
Aldridge
Wall
Noah
DMC
Love
Davis
Duncan
Dragic
Dirk
Dwight
Al Jefferson
Wade
PG
Kawhi
MGasol
Bosh

I definitely take back the "comfortably" part of my comment. It's not comfortable a selection at all. But once again, I'm not basing this entirely on production right now. I'm basing this with context in mind. Kawhi is just not given the offensive freedom guys like Kyrie, Wall, Derozan, etc are given. This is not a knock on him or the Spurs, as I think their balanced and cohesive system is wonderful - it just doesn't allow Kawhi to produce eye-catching numbers like other perimeter players. I think Kawhi with more freedom is an 18/7/3 player with top 3-5 perimeter defense. In terms of pure value and impact I think he's up there.

[Smook A.]

could you list your top 25...i'm really interested in this
His list probably goes something like

1. Giannis Antetokounmpo
2. Kevin Durant
3. LeBron James
4. Blake Griffin
5. CP3
6. Kevin Love
7. Stephen Curry
8. Carmelo Anthony
9. LaMarcus Aldridge

...

400. James Harden

[davehos]

Top 15? No.

Top 20? You can make a strong case for it.

Top 25? Definitely.

Finals MVP? I think there is a good chance.

All-star next year? Perhaps a better chance.

[Nuff Said]

could you list your top 25...i'm really interested in this
http://i.imgur.com/TONDq.gif

[DMAVS41]

No particular order

Durant
Lebron
Blake
CP3
Parker
Curry
Melo
Westbrook
Lillard
Aldridge
Wall
Noah
DMC
Love
Davis
Duncan
Dragic
Dirk
Dwight
Al Jefferson
Wade
PG
Kawhi
MGasol
Bosh

I definitely take back the "comfortably" part of my comment. It's not comfortable a selection at all. But once again, I'm not basing this entirely on production right now. I'm basing this with context in mind. Kawhi is just not given the offensive freedom guys like Kyrie, Wall, Derozan, etc are given. This is not a knock on him or the Spurs, as I think their balanced and cohesive system is wonderful - it just doesn't allow Kawhi to produce eye-catching numbers like other perimeter players. I think Kawhi with more freedom is an 18/7/3 player with top 3-5 perimeter defense. In terms of pure value and impact I think he's up there.

Did I miss Harden?

What about Zach Randolph?

Mike Conley?

Is he better than Iggy?

Deron Williams?

Irving?

Millsap?

Monroe/Drummond?

Ibaka?

Deandre Jordan?

Hibbert?

Ellis?

Afflalo?

Stephenson?
I'm just throwing more names out there...

[Legends66NBA7]

This is absurd as suggesting Dwyane Wade was a top 3 player a couple of weeks back. Like Wade, Leonard has missed too many games and doesn't play enough minutes to truly gauge his value.

I will say when he's healthy, he's better than certain sixth men or all-star mentions, like JR Smith, Lance Stephenson, Joe Johnson, etc...

[Smook A.]

Did I miss Harden?

What about Zach Randolph?

Mike Conley?

Is he better than Iggy?

Deron Williams?

Irving?

Millsap?

Monroe/Drummond?

Ibaka?

Deandre Jordan?

Hibbert?

Ellis?

Afflalo?

Stephenson?
I'm just throwing more names out there...
He hates James Harden so you will never ever see Milbuck say that Harden is a good player.

[YouGotServed]

lol @ Barkley. Leonard is not even better than Chandler Parsons.

[DMAVS41]

lol @ Barkley. Leonard is not even better than Chandler Parsons.

I actually think he is better than Parsons.

[YouGotServed]

I actually think he is better than Parsons.

But he isn't.

[Smook A.]

I actually think he is better than Parsons.
Defense - Leonard
Offense - Parsons

Overall I think Leonard has the edge because of his all-around play, but if Parsons played a little better defense and hustled more then I'd have him over Kawhi.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

While everyone loves to focus all the pressure on Lebron and KD to win a ring this year, really the biggest disappointment relative to depth, talent, coaching, team makeup and performance throughout the season would be for the spurs to not win the championship.

[YouGotServed]

Leonard is not even that much a better defender than Parsons. He just plays in a system were the coach actually requires you to play defense so I blame McHale. Parsons is the superior offensive player and their defense is pretty much a wash.

[kells333]

No particular order

Durant
Lebron
Blake
CP3
Parker
Curry
Melo
Westbrook
Lillard
Aldridge
Wall
Noah
DMC
Love
Davis
Duncan
Dragic
Dirk
Dwight
Al Jefferson
Wade
PG
MGasol
Bosh
Irving
Ibaka
Derozen
Gay
Harden
Milsap
Deandre jordan
D- rose
Kobe
Drummond
Afflalo
Ellis
Josh smith

All people i think are better than him right now. Theres probably a few missed also

[Milbuck]

No particular order

Durant
Lebron
Blake
CP3
Parker
Curry
Melo
Westbrook
Lillard
Aldridge
Wall
Noah
DMC
Love
Davis
Duncan
Dragic
Dirk
Dwight
Al Jefferson
Wade
PG
MGasol
Bosh
Irving
Ibaka
Derozen
Gay
Harden
Milsap
Deandre jordan
D- rose
Kobe
Drummond
Afflalo
Ellis
Josh smith

All people i think are better than him right now. Theres probably a few missed also
What the **** to the bolded. Especially to Rose and Kobe, who both played like utter shit when they did play this season.

The red are debatable right now. Some of them (Drummond, Kyrie, maybe Derozan) could be substantially better in the future. But you could make a case for Kawhi over them right now as an overall basketball player, considering their situations/roles.

[DMAVS41]

What the **** to the bolded. Especially to Rose and Kobe, who both played like utter shit when they did play this season.

The red are debatable right now. Some of them (Drummond, Kyrie, maybe Derozan) could be substantially better in the future. But you could make a case for Kawhi over them right now as an overall basketball player, considering their situations/roles.

Harden is definitely better than Leonard. It is absurd to argue that...

Seems to me he's a sure fire top 40 player.

Could be argued perhaps a bit higher, but it's not definitive.

[Yankstar]

What the **** to the bolded. Especially to Rose and Kobe, who both played like utter shit when they did play this season.

The red are debatable right now. Some of them (Drummond, Kyrie, maybe Derozan) could be substantially better in the future. But you could make a case for Kawhi over them right now as an overall basketball player, considering their situations/roles.

:biggums: Harden? Really are you trolling :facepalm

[aj1987]

:biggums: Harden? Really are you trolling :facepalm
**** Harden! Flopping, no defense playing, bearded fat ****** ****.

Inb4 YGS - "You madd?".

[KyrieTheFuture]

Kawhi Leonard plays 2nd team defense at the worst, I'd put him 1st team. He's an incredibly efficient scorer, great rebounder, and doesn't turn it over.


And he plays 29 MPG. Twenty ****ing nine minutes. He'd put up stats if he played more minutes. He's definitely top 15.

People forget he was going to win FMVP if the Spurs won last year.

[Dro]

Did I miss Harden?

What about Zach Randolph?

Mike Conley?

Is he better than Iggy?

Deron Williams?

Irving?

Millsap?

Monroe/Drummond?

Ibaka?

Deandre Jordan?

Hibbert?

Ellis?

Afflalo?

Stephenson?
I'm just throwing more names out there...
He's better than Hibbert, probably Afflalo and Lance too...although I'm iffy on Lance...He's better than Kyrie for sure...

[BuffaloBill]

I read that the Spurs have a 81% winning percentage with Kawhi in the lineup (since he joined the team, not just this season). I wouldn't say he's a top 15 player but he does have a huge impact and he makes the spurs that much better.

[steve]

I honestly don't know what game people are watching if they don't consider Leonard one of the select few best perimeter defenders in the league. In my opinion he's the top perimeter defender in the league. His balance, anticipation, the ability to use his length, and his overall understanding of help and positional defense is really unmatched in the league. People give a lot of credit to Duncan (and occasionally Splitter, I guess) to the Spurs' resurgent defense but it's no coincidence that it took off when Leonard started getting more minutes and hits another level when he's on the floor.

And people really seem to undervalue his offense and the fact that he takes nothing off the table on that end and succeeds regularly when asked to do more. Compare this to some of the other small forwards under Lebron and Durant, and they may be consistently do more than Leonard but they also try to do more than they're capable of, usually to the hinderance of their team. This just doesn't happen with Leonard. He's been the best player on the best team in the league this season.

[TexasBloodMoney]

Leonard is not even that much a better defender than Parsons. He just plays in a system were the coach actually requires you to play defense so I blame McHale. Parsons is the superior offensive player and their defense is pretty much a wash.

Whatever helps you sleep at night :cheers:

[Nikola_]

Dat 98 DRTG doe

53-11 with him, 8-7 without :biggums:

[imdaman99]

I believe in Kawhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii :rockon:

Top 15 soon, not yet though.

[mr.big35]

:biggums: Harden? Really are you trolling :facepalm

he is right you know.

[thefatmiral]

sometimes he plays like it. but without the consistency he isnt.

[mr.big35]

Giannis and kawhi will be future stars

[SCdac]

No particular order

Durant
Lebron
Blake
CP3
Parker
Curry
Melo
Westbrook
Lillard
Aldridge
Wall
Noah
DMC
Love
Davis
Duncan
Dragic
Dirk
Dwight
Al Jefferson
Wade
PG
MGasol
Bosh
Irving
Ibaka
Derozen
Gay
Harden
Milsap
Deandre jordan
D- rose
Kobe
Drummond
Afflalo
Ellis
Josh smith

All people i think are better than him right now. Theres probably a few missed also

:oldlol: I don't dispute most of those, but no GM in the league outside of Dumars would take Smith over Kawhi right now... not even considering the disparity in contract (54 mil/4 years vs. Kawhi's rookie contract).

Smith: 36 mpg, 16 ppg (.42 FG%, .26 three-pt %, .53 FT%), 6.8 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.4 bpg

Leonard*: 30 mpg, 15 ppg (.53 FG%, .44 three-pt %, .87 FT%), 6.6 rpg, 2.3 apg, 1.9 spg, 1.3 bpg

*using Leonard's numbers since returning from a broken bone in his hand (23 games). I have no doubts in my mind Pistons would be a better team with Kawhi in place of Smith. The guy lead the Hawks to nothing and he's lead the Pistons to 29 wins this season. They were already shopping him pre-trade deadline.

[Darius]

Leonard a very good player but you can't say is he top 15 right now.

If was given offensive freedom and proved it? Maybe.

But you gotta remember, it's a double edged sword.

Guys are given offensive freedom and look good at first but then NBA defenses scout them and load up on them.

It's what they do AFTER that that defines a top 10 guy IMO.

You need to be able to score efficiently when entire defenses are loaded to prevent you from doing what you are most comfortable doing to be a top 10 player.

Lucky for him he plays in Pop's system but I'd be very interested what would happen if he was dropped on the Bucks.

[YouGotServed]

Whatever helps you sleep at night :cheers:

Facts help me sleep at night buddy.

[ZenMaster]

Leonard a very good player but you can't say is he top 15 right now.

If was given offensive freedom and proved it? Maybe.

But you gotta remember, it's a double edged sword.

Guys are given offensive freedom and look good at first but then NBA defenses scout them and load up on them.

It's what they do AFTER that that defines a top 10 guy IMO.

You need to be able to score efficiently when entire defenses are loaded to prevent you from doing what you are most comfortable doing to be a top 10 player.

Lucky for him he plays in Pop's system but I'd be very interested what would happen if he was dropped on the Bucks.

It doesn't make sense, the best perimeter wing scorers are top 10 by default, why aren't the best perimeter wing defenders rated close to the same way?

You can talk about being a good scorer as the #1 focus of the defense all you want, but the game is 50/50 offense and defense.
Put him on the Bucks and he'd still be one of the very best defenders in the league.

"Oh it's good he plays in pops system", they say that about every damn player on the Spurs like Pop is just waving around a magic wand.

[Milbuck]

Aside from Parsons being given damn near all the freedom after Harden to do what he wants on offense...Kawhi has the advantage in basically every efficiency and advanced stat that matters (FG%, 3PT%, FT%, TS%, EFG%, PER, WS/48, ORTG, DRTG) while playing substantially better defense.

B-b-b-but Chandler scores more!

LOL at any moron/Rockets fan who seriously thinks Parsons is better.

[mr.big35]

Aside from Parsons being given damn near all the freedom after Harden to do what he wants on offense...Kawhi has the advantage in basically every efficiency and advanced stat that matters (FG%, 3PT%, FT%, TS%, EFG%, PER, WS/48, ORTG, DRTG) while playing substantially better defense.

B-b-b-but Chandler scores more!

LOL at any moron/Rockets fan who seriously thinks Parsons is better.
they dont know that kawhi and giannis will be stars and chandler will be a scrub

[Carbine]

He's a top 3 role player. He's like a SF version of Rodman.

These guys, while not able to carry teams by themselves, are extremely extremely valuable and rare.

[Milbuck]

they dont know that kawhi and giannis will be stars and chandler will be a scrub
Even if Giannis became a 7 foot tall Lebron/Durant hybrid, and Kawhi surpassed prime Pippen....Rockets fans would STILL think Parsons is better.

[mentallooser]

Don't confuse his skill level with where he fits in the Spurs system. He can do more than he's being asked to by the Spurs. I rank him pretty high.

[Darius]

It doesn't make sense, the best perimeter wing scorers are top 10 by default, why aren't the best perimeter wing defenders rated close to the same way?

You can talk about being a good scorer as the #1 focus of the defense all you want, but the game is 50/50 offense and defense.
Put him on the Bucks and he'd still be one of the very best defenders in the league.

"Oh it's good he plays in pops system", they say that about every damn player on the Spurs like Pop is just waving around a magic wand.

First, I'm not saying he couldn't be good outside Pops system. I suspect he would be.

I'm saying for a guy to be considering top 15 they need to prove it and he hasn't. It's not his fault he hasn't because he is in Pop's system but he hasn't.

As for defense being half the game, it's not that simple because you have to look at it vs. the average replacement player.

Great offense is far more valuable than great defense for a perimeter player because of the way the rules/game is structured.

Great offense can allow a whole team to be better.

Great defense can limit one individual... but even then great offense can overcome it.

Only in the case of a center/PF rim protector can great defense be as valuable as great offense.

[YouGotServed]

lol @ stat nerds who still think Leonard is the superior offensive player.

:oldlol:

[steve]

You need to be able to score efficiently when entire defenses are loaded to prevent you from doing what you are most comfortable doing to be a top 10 player.

Except that's not true of anyone in the Spurs offense and really hasn't been since about '04 or so. Considering how much they rely on ball and player movement, defenses aren't meant to focus on a single player. There might be a misconception that defenses focus on Parker, Duncan, and Ginobili but rarely are defenses really tilted towards them in fear of what's happening off the ball (for instance, Parker rarely gets most of his action with the ball in his hands at the top of the key like most point guards but instead gets it on the side after he's run through a few screens). And of course this is where Leonard fits their system as he spaces the floor and takes whatever role the Spurs need him to occupy (this is evidenced by his excellent post up numbers when the Spurs find that mismatch). He's shown this season that he's able to fit whatever role the Spurs offense has needed of him this season and he does so many interesting/positive things for the Spurs on offense and he doesn't just have one role.

I'm not saying he's a top 15 player because I don't think he should make All-NBA but when you couple how unique his role in the Spurs offense is with how great his defense is, he's awfully damn close at this point and a lot closer than many people think. Things to keep in mind is that he's 6th in defensive rating, he's in the top 25 in offensive rating (he has the second largest gap between those two ratings, by the way), he's 13th in win shares per 48 minutes, and 34th in PER (and this is with him using a really small number of his team's possessions). I think there's a lot of focus on a player's ability to generate offense, that everything else that player's due to make both the offense and defense successful gets overlooked, as does the general perception that a player isn't there yet and ignoring the markers that contradict that perception.


Lucky for him he plays in Pop's system but I'd be very interested what would happen if he was dropped on the Bucks.

About as well as anyone else not named Lebron James, Kevin Durant, or Chris Paul. I don't think it's fair to justify how good a player might be by dropping in just hopeless situation. Most every good player in the league needs to be in a good/right situation to succeed. Leonard is fortunate to be playing for such a well coached team but a good part of the Spurs success is because they have a player like Kawhi Leonard.

[Milbuck]

As usual, zero argument :oldlol:

Rockets fans keep proving they're the dumbest fan base in all of sports.

[atljonesbro]

I feel like Leonard is over hyped. People throw around a lot of hypotheticals and small sample sizes when they talk about him.

[ZenMaster]

First, I'm not saying he couldn't be good outside Pops system. I suspect he would be.

I'm saying for a guy to be considering top 15 they need to prove it and he hasn't. It's not his fault he hasn't because he is in Pop's system but he hasn't.


I don't need to say much because I'll just be repeating Steve. A few things though:

That whole prove it thing is your opinion, Barkley would argue that he's proving it with his play while you make it merit based in that his team has to achieve a certain level of succes for it to be true.


As for defense being half the game, it's not that simple because you have to look at it vs. the average replacement player.

The exact same argument can be used for offense.



Great offense is far more valuable than great defense for a perimeter player because of the way the rules/game is structured.

Why? New rules makes offense easier to come by, that means defense is harder to play and execute=good defensive players more valuable.


Great offense can allow a whole team to be better.

Great defense can limit one individual... but even then great offense can overcome it.

Only in the case of a center/PF rim protector can great defense be as valuable as great offense.

Great defense limits more than one individual player no matter the positions.

Knowing rotations, being a good communicater helps the team out through an entire position.

Just like being a good offensive player makes other defense more aware of you, being a good defensive player makes other teams prepare to play around you.

[YouGotServed]

Cool argument, will read again.

[SCdac]

Parsons is a better playmaker and ballhandler than Kawhi, and he can score in a variety of ways, but in the grand scheme, considering the context, I'm not too enamored by his game. He's super talented and obviously no scrub but if I were in Houston's front office I wouldn't have him as untouchable.. as Kawhi is to the Spurs at least.

In their fast paced offense it's all about slashing and three point shooting and you can tell that's what Parson's game is made of the last couple seasons, for better or worse (he's had some amazing games offensively but can also be streaky). For Parsons to shoot 6-8 three's or 10+ three's in one game is not uncommon.

Kawhi definitely doesn't have that run-and-gun freedom yet he's integral to the Spurs success and defense. He's a gamer, young, and can easily see him contributing to a championship-level team significantly like a Tayshaun Prince, Stephen Jackson, or Shawn Marion (intangible qualities and tough D). I don't project either him or Parsons as All-Stars personally but hey you never know. Both are young

Spurs came close to winning the Finals last season with Leonard ranked amongst the Spurs:

#1 in mpg (37 mpg)
#3 in ppg (15 ppg) behing Duncan and Parker, naturally, but still impressive for a youngin
#2 in rpg (11 rpg) beast on the boards for his size
#1 in spg (2 spg)
#1 in fg% (.51%)

[YouGotServed]

If he were any good offensively Pop would take advantage of that. He isn't that good, coach Pop agrees with me.

Next.

[Milbuck]

Desperation post after desperation post. You're so madd right now :oldlol:

[YouGotServed]

Cool argument.

[Milbuck]

Let all the anger out.

[KyrieTheFuture]

If he were any good offensively Pop would take advantage of that. He isn't that good, coach Pop agrees with me.

Next.
How are you gonna sit here and tell us Coach Pop doesn't take advantage of Leonards skills?

[oarabbus]

Wait, this guy is trying to say Parsons is better than Leonard?

:roll:

Parsons IS pretty good doe

[Darius]

I don't need to say much because I'll just be repeating Steve. A few things though:

That whole prove it thing is your opinion, Barkley would argue that he's proving it with his play while you make it merit based in that his team has to achieve a certain level of succes for it to be true.



The exact same argument can be used for offense.




Why? New rules makes offense easier to come by, that means defense is harder to play and execute=good defensive players more valuable.



Great defense limits more than one individual player no matter the positions.

Knowing rotations, being a good communicater helps the team out through an entire position.

Just like being a good offensive player makes other defense more aware of you, being a good defensive player makes other teams prepare to play around you.

I see where you are coming from but don't agree.

Because the rules changed to favor the offensive player, it created a situation where even the greatest defenders are unable to stop a very good offense player consistently.

Defense is now a team endeavor with the most important defender being the rim protector. That's why perimeter defenders rarely ever win DPOY.

The rules create a ceiling on how much a great perimeter defender can influence the game.

On the other hand, great offensive players are given even more power to make an impact.

Spurs are an anomaly... ever other good team in the league relies on a top 10 player to beat their man and either score or provide opportunity for the rest of their team.

You could argue "well a great defender can stop a great offensive player from making the impact" but the facts are, in the modern era, no great defender can shutdown a great offensive player.

TLDR: Great perimeter defense can slow down 1 player but great perimeter offense can create for an entire team, thus great perimeter defense not as important as great offense.

[YouGotServed]

lol @ thinking a player who isn't offensively better than a washed up ginobili and Duncan is better than Parsons. Don't see how this is even debatable tbh.


How are you gonna sit here and tell us Coach Pop doesn't take advantage of Leonards skills?


Reading comprehension, work on it, sport.

Wait, this guy is trying to say Parsons is better than Leonard?

:roll:

Parsons IS pretty good doe

Shhhh, LOF.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Both of them are the third leading scorers on their teams and Parsons plays 8 more minutes to put up better stats in one category.

But this is your troll schtick, every rockets player is better than everyone else.

[oarabbus]

]lol @ thinking a player who isn't offensively better than a washed up ginobili and Duncan is better than Parsons. [/B]Don't see how this is even debatable tbh.




Reading comprehension, work on it, sport.


Shhhh, LOF.

Defense doe
Wins championships doe
Kawhi a great defender doe
Parsons a white defender doe
Therefore not as good as Kawhi doe
Gotta be black or Euro (like Marc) to be a great defender doe

[YouGotServed]

Not better than a washed up Duncan or Ginobili.

"Better than Parsons", doe. :oldlol:

[ZenMaster]

I see where you are coming from but don't agree.

Because the rules changed to favor the offensive player, it created a situation where even the greatest defenders are unable to stop a very good offense player consistently.

Defense is now a team endeavor with the most important defender being the rim protector. That's why perimeter defenders rarely ever win DPOY.

The rules create a ceiling on how much a great perimeter defender can influence the game.

On the other hand, great offensive players are given even more power to make an impact.

Spurs are an anomaly... ever other good team in the league relies on a top 10 player to beat their man and either score or provide opportunity for the rest of their team.

You could argue "well a great defender can stop a great offensive player from making the impact" but the facts are, in the modern era, no great defender can shutdown a great offensive player.

TLDR: Great perimeter defense can slow down 1 player but great perimeter offense can create for an entire team, thus great perimeter defense not as important as great offense.

It's basketball and scores often end in the hundreds...Nobody really "shuts" anybody down, it's a way too defenitive term and doesn't really apply to basketball.

If you think all players not 6-10 or more only affects one player one defense you're dead wrong.

You say all other top teams rely on a top 10 player to beat their man, but the Spurs have more wins than anyone so isn't it realistic to think they have multiple players in the 10-25 range?

[oarabbus]

Not better than a washed up Duncan or Ginobili.

"Better than Parsons", doe. :oldlol:

I'm glad we agree :cheers:

[KyrieTheFuture]

I'm not even gonna argue with you about Ginobili, he's obviously a better player than Manu.

So you're saying Harden, Dwight, Parsons, shit according to you probably even PBev and Asik are better than every single player on the Spurs?

Why are the Spurs significantly better than the Rockets?

[YouGotServed]

They aren't significantly better.

Try again, troll.

[Dresta]

They aren't significantly better.

Try again, troll.
Yeah they are.

[YouGotServed]

Yeah they are.

No.

[kells333]

:oldlol: I don't dispute most of those, but no GM in the league outside of Dumars would take Smith over Kawhi right now... not even considering the disparity in contract (54 mil/4 years vs. Kawhi's rookie contract).

Smith: 36 mpg, 16 ppg (.42 FG%, .26 three-pt %, .53 FT%), 6.8 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.4 bpg

Leonard*: 30 mpg, 15 ppg (.53 FG%, .44 three-pt %, .87 FT%), 6.6 rpg, 2.3 apg, 1.9 spg, 1.3 bpg

*using Leonard's numbers since returning from a broken bone in his hand (23 games). I have no doubts in my mind Pistons would be a better team with Kawhi in place of Smith. The guy lead the Hawks to nothing and he's lead the Pistons to 29 wins this season. They were already shopping him pre-trade deadline.


I believe alot of the negativity around smith is because he has been playing out of position too much. If you put him on a team where he plays exclusivly at the 4 he has proven he can lead a team to the playoffs. Kawhi hasnt proven he can lead anything.

[aboss4real24]

Khawi is a role player nuthn more

[aboss4real24]

I'm not even gonna argue with you about Ginobili, he's obviously a better player than Manu.

So you're saying Harden, Dwight, Parsons, shit according to you probably even PBev and Asik are better than every single player on the Spurs?

Why are the Spurs significantly better than the Rockets?



rockets are 3 0 vs the spurs how they significantly better?

[SCdac]

I believe alot of the negativity around smith is because he has been playing out of position too much. If you put him on a team where he plays exclusivly at the 4 he has proven he can lead a team to the playoffs. Kawhi hasnt proven he can lead anything.

LOL leading the team to the playoffs doesn't mean much in the east. The guy averages .42 FG% and .17% from three in the playoffs :facepalm ... Kawhi > Josh Smith

[Dro]

They aren't significantly better.

Try again, troll.
You are very, very delusional my friend...

[aboss4real24]

You are very, very delusional my friend...

3-0 vs the spurs

only 1 delusional is u

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Hes def not top 10
but hes top 20 and Spurs best player this season

[KyrieTheFuture]

rockets are 3 0 vs the spurs how they significantly better?
That means they match up well, not that they are better.

Spurs have NINE more wins

[kells333]

LOL leading the team to the playoffs doesn't mean much in the east. The guy averages .42 FG% and .17% from three in the playoffs :facepalm ... Kawhi > Josh Smith

Leading a team to the playoffs is impressive no matter what conference. And once again he is playing out of position which is why his stats are down. If pop decided to start kawhi at point guard over parker then his stats would fall also.

[Dro]

3-0 vs the spurs

only 1 delusional is u
So you think the Rockets are better than the Spurs? With a straight face?

[oarabbus]

Leading a team to the playoffs is impressive no matter what conference. And once again he is playing out of position which is why his stats are down. If pop decided to start kawhi at point guard over parker then his stats would fall also.

Kawhi is better at Josh Smith at almost everything except being overrated and taking bad jumpshots... Smoove is better around the rim but he rarely plays down there so w/e

[IrishIggy]

If you put Kawhi on another team he could easily average 18 points with 7 boards and a handful of assists and he, as we all know, is a fantastic player on defense. Would be a quality addition on any team, could imagine him on the Trail blazers.

[kells333]

Kawhi is better at Josh Smith at almost everything except being overrated and taking bad jumpshots... Smoove is better around the rim but he rarely plays down there so w/e

This ngga recently averaged 19/10/4/1.5/2, Were having and argument about him being in the top 25 and you think hes OVERRRATED? Hell naw

[Smook A.]

This ngga recently averaged 19/10/4/1.5/2, Were having and argument about him being in the top 25 and you think hes OVERRRATED? Hell naw
That was 2 seasons ago. Josh Smith sucks now. Nothing but a low IQ shot chucker. Ask Pistons fans what they think of him... They all agree with me

[kells333]

That was 2 seasons ago. Josh Smith sucks now. Nothing but a low IQ shot chucker. Ask Pistons fans what they think of him... They all agree with me

Once again. He is playing out of position. He doesnt suck. He doesnt take enough shots to qualify as a chucker. He was a career 46% shooter before struggling this year out of position.

[Smoke117]

He must be back on the fast food stuffing his face with big macs, whoopers and all that MSG shit to say something so stupid.

[bizil]

Leonard is a top 10 SF in the L right now. And has a lot of upside. But other than that, NO WAY is he close to a top 10-15 player in the L. But if u are top 10 at your position, that's a great start for a young guy like Leonard. U got Bron, Durant, Melo, and George are gonna be the top 4 SF's for a while. The guys like Leonard, Parsons, Iggy, Deng, Gay, etc. are clearly aren't on the level of the top four, so NO WAY is Leonard a top 15 player. Depth wise, this SF crop isn't like the 80's crop, so how could Barkley EVEN begin to make such a claim. I think at best he's more top 25-30 range, hell maybe even lower than that.

[BrooklynZoo]

I don't watch him much but you people who actually believe this realize that a top 15 player means that more than half of the teams in the NBA don't have a player better than him?

[ILLsmak]

I'm trying to think where I would put him...I honestly don't know.

I know he's not top 15, but he's about as valuable as you can get for this Spurs team...he is literally the perfect player for what they need.

I doubt he's a top 25 player, but I'd have to think about it.

I think you could put him on many teams and he would be "the perfect player for what they need."

The reason he's not top 25 is because it's questionable whether he could lead a team like that. But in terms of a player who fits into a system, he's one of the top ones.

If you suddenly throw him on decent teams, they get a lot better. Where as if you take someone like Westbrook and put him on a team, he might not fit.

-Smak

[Wonder Bread Kid]

I don't watch him much but you people who actually believe this realize that a top 15 player means that more than half of the teams in the NBA don't have a player better than him?

Yes, it's very believable that you don't watch much of him. A lot of what he brings to the Spurs doesn't show up in the box score.

[Sarcastic]

Yes, it's very believable that you don't watch much of him. A lot of what he brings to the Spurs doesn't show up in the box score.


Top 10-15 guys do things that DO show up in the box score.

[Smoke117]

There is no possible way hes a top 10 to 15 player in the league unless the NBA hwas fallen off massively. He's a great role player, who plays tough defense, erbounds, and scors his 13ppg efficiently...but top 10 (:biggums: ) is a complete joke and top 15 isn't far off. He's a good overall player and a great defensive player, but you can't seriously put him in the top 15 players in the league. He's a not a star at this point in his career (and if he'll ever be nobody knows), but a terrific role player....but great role players are not top 10-15 players. Horace Grant is better than he ever was during his Bulls and Magic Years but nobody was putting hm in the top 10-15 players and he was no doubt beter than Kawhi. If the league is so weak that KL is a top 10-15 player than the league is at a very low point right now.


I'm nto even trying to hate on him either, I actually really like him, but he's maybe the 3rd best player on his own team after Duncan and Parker (and possibly even 4th when Ginobili is health), so I I can't understand how he could be one of the best 10-15 players in the league unless Barkely is joking.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Leonard is a top 10 SF in the L right now. And has a lot of upside. But other than that, NO WAY is he close to a top 10-15 player in the L. But if u are top 10 at your position, that's a great start for a young guy like Leonard. U got Bron, Durant, Melo, and George are gonna be the top 4 SF's for a while. The guys like Leonard, Parsons, Iggy, Deng, Gay, etc. are clearly aren't on the level of the top four, so NO WAY is Leonard a top 15 player. Depth wise, this SF crop isn't like the 80's crop, so how could Barkley EVEN begin to make such a claim. I think at best he's more top 25-30 range, hell maybe even lower than that.
Hes EASILY a top 5 SF
KD, Lebron, Melo and George are the only ones better. And George isnt even much better TBH he just has a bigger role and minutes. Theres no other SF u can even argue is better than Kawhi.