Replace Kobe Bryant with these superstars from 2009 onwards.

[Andrei89]

As I posted in the other thread it got me thinking. How would these players do if they replaced Kobe Bryant, lets say in 2009-2010 season?. I saw Jabbar laughing at Kobe's supporting cast during the championship years and hence this thread.

Superstars: Derrick Rose, Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony ( Derrick Rose assuming healthy)

Here is the supporting cast :

Gasol---> Most skilled PF in the league,7 foot tall, averaged 19/11/3/2bpg 53% shooting in the playoffs

Andrew Bynum--> 7 foot , skilled big man in the paint

Ron Artest---> one of the most elite perimeter and man to man defenders in the league

Derek Fisher- Solid veteran and clutch as **** PG

Lamar Odom- one of the best 6th men in the league beside Manu Ginobili.

What are your thoughts?

[IncarceratedBob]

With LeBron they lose in 08/09 but win in 10
With Rose they lose in 08/09/10
With Melo they lose in 08/09/10
With Wade they lose in 08/09/10

[iTare]

Bran wins 2 for sure. Wade would have a great chance to get 1. Rose and Melo stay ringless.

[Andrei89]

With LeBron they lose in 08/09 but win in 10
With Rose they lose in 08/09/10
With Melo they lose in 08/09/10
With Wade they lose in 08/09/10


No troll?

I honestly see Lebron winning both 09 and 10 easily with that cast. Perhaps even make a much better run in 2011.

Furthermoe, I see Wade getting one and perhaps Melo and Rose also get one somehow. But somehow I see Melo having least of the chances of winning a chip.
No troll here.

[Rocketswin2013]

Well LeBron and prime Dwade roflstomp the NBA with this cast so there's that.


Rose could legitimately win FMVP And so could Melo but the Celtics would give them a hell of a battle. Plus the West was brutal and Steve Nash would have given Rose all he could handle in the WCF. 50/50 for Rose and Melo.


Edit: We're talking 09' season too? Yikes. I don't know if Melo or Rose could get through that stacked WC that year but still 50/50.

[PsychoBe]

Bran's not beating the spurs without another perimeter presence(s) like wade and allen. remember the lakers didn't have 4-5 3-point shooters to stretch the floor consistently so he'd be very turn-over prone forcing passes to the inside all the time against very physical teams in the western playoffs.

i'd say bran is the only one who'd probably win at least once maybe (i doubt he'd beat dwight or the celtics tho)

[iTare]

i'd say bran is the only one who'd probably win at least once maybe (i doubt he'd beat dwight or the celtics tho)
http://replygif.net/i/1385.gif

[bballnoob1192]

http://replygif.net/i/1385.gif
didn't he lose to dwight in 09.........:facepalm

[iTare]

didn't he lose to dwight in 09.........:facepalm
........he was with cleveland....

[STATUTORY]

:roll: bran wouldn't have even made it out of the west with that cast :facepalm

[PsychoBe]

........he was with cleveland....

without kobe averagin 30/5/5 an stretchin the floor gasol/bran's/bynum's paint-clogging would be nothing but a block party for dwight.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Bynum averaged 6 & 4

Fisher was the worst starting point guard in the league

Artest wasn't on the team in 09

:facepalm

An yet you talk them up like they were stars.

Pau was a 1x all star before joining the Lakers who's game was improved drastically by Kobe (check Paus FG% from when he was traded) who was never impactful enough to win one game as the leader of the team in the playoffs.

You really are going to say Pau is more skilled than Duncan, KG & Dirk?

You don't even mention Ariza who we don't win shit without in 09.. :facepalm

[STATUTORY]

Bynum averaged 6 & 4

Fisher was the worst starting point guard in the league

Artest wasn't on the team in 09

:facepalm

An yet you talk them up like they were stars.

Pau was a 1x all star before joining the Lakers who's game was improved drastically by Kobe (check Paus FG% from when he was traded) who was never impactful enough to win one game as the leader of the team in the playoffs.

You really are going to say Pau is more skilled than Duncan, KG & Dirk?

You don't even mention Ariza who we don't win shit without in 09.. :facepalm

OP doesn't watch basketball, ni99a is not even one of those boxscore reading fans, he gets his facts from ISH exclusively :lol

[bballnoob1192]

Bynum averaged 6 & 4

Fisher was the worst starting point guard in the league

Artest wasn't on the team in 09

:facepalm

An yet you talk them up like they were stars.

Pau was a 1x all star before joining the Lakers who's game was improved drastically by Kobe (check Paus FG% from when he was traded) who was never impactful enough to win one game as the leader of the team in the playoffs.

You really are going to say Pau is more skilled than Duncan, KG & Dirk?

You don't even mention Ariza who we don't win shit without in 09.. :facepalm
yup that denver series woulda been different if not for ariza.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Lebron and Wade don't win shit with these teams.

They are built horribly for those two guys, with a clogged paint and no shooters around them Wade & Bron would have trouble.

The only person I can see winning with this team is Melo, but then you have to factor in you're losing Kobes play making and defense..

Kobes WCF in 09 & 10 were incredible and would not be duplicated easily..

I think Melo has the best shot with this team as his skill set would mesh well with the squad.

[bballnoob1192]

those teams were definately built around kobe, cuz i don't see lebron working out since odom was already taking up a lot of the slashing duties. i don't see how odom and lebron can play together with bynum and pau in the paint. that is so gddamn crowded. IMO Melo's jumpshooting ability would prolly fit those lakers team the best, since he has a game similar to kobe.

[PsychoBe]

Lebron and Wade don't win shit with these teams.

They are built horribly for those two guys, with a clogged paint and no shooters around them Wade & Bron would have trouble.

The only person I can see winning with this team is Melo, but then you have to factor in you're losing Kobes play making and defense..

Kobes WCF in 09 & 10 were incredible and would not be duplicated easily..

I think Melo has the best shot with this team as his skill set would mesh well with the squad.

this. kobe and phil made that team what they were. nobody knew pairing kobe with a perrineal first-round exit big-man with non 3-point shooting role-players would result in back-to-back championships.

[STATUTORY]

lebron HAS NEVER played well with a post player in his career but he's suppose to thrive with gasol and odom?

seriously? hate for kobe is over the top

[Bodhi]

Bynum averaged 6 & 4

Fisher was the worst starting point guard in the league

Artest wasn't on the team in 09

:facepalm

An yet you talk them up like they were stars.

Pau was a 1x all star before joining the Lakers who's game was improved drastically by Kobe (check Paus FG% from when he was traded) who was never impactful enough to win one game as the leader of the team in the playoffs.

You really are going to say Pau is more skilled than Duncan, KG & Dirk?

You don't even mention Ariza who we don't win shit without in 09.. :facepalm

Topic over

[Keno]

lebron three peats from '08 - '10. not only does he have the most dominant front court in the nba, he also would have the greatest coach of all time on the side lines.

[DMAVS41]

Lebron and Wade (if healthy win in 09 and 10)

LOL at Melo and Rose...won't even answer that one.

A healthy Wade in 08 might have been able to win it...he's the only player on that list that could have.

[Mr. Jabbar]

no rings for anyone there, srry

[Mr. Jabbar]

Lebron and Wade (if healthy win in 09 and 10)


you cant bring both :no:

[DMAVS41]

you cant bring both :no:

In a hypothetical like this...I don't see any good reason why they wouldn't win. For starters, both Lebron and Wade played the Celtics better than Kobe...Wade especially.

During that time there wasn't a team in the West that was really a threat to the Lakers either.

Kobe, Wade, and Lebron were all virtually at the same level in 09 and 10.

Like I said above, I actually think a healthy Wade in 08 would have had a chance against the Celtics in the finals. And they would have made it...Spurs had a hobbled Manu in the Conference finals...

What series are they losing in 09 and 10?

[Andrei89]

Wade played great against the Celtics in 2010. That 46 point game was also beast!

[IllegalD]

Lebron and Wade (if healthy win in 09 and 10)

LOL at Melo and Rose...won't even answer that one.

A healthy Wade in 08 might have been able to win it...he's the only player on that list that could have.

If that's a sure fire thing then why did LeBron lose in 2011 with a healthy Bosh, and Wade dominating like a Finals MVP?

Why did Wade also lose in 2011 with a healthy Bosh and the "best player in the world" in LeBron as his sidekick?

:confusedshrug:

[Milbuck]

Lebron wins 2, Wade wins 1, Rose and Melo are still ringless. I think current Melo from 2009 on wins 1 though.

[Ronaldinho]

Lebron and Wade (if healthy win in 09 and 10)

LOL at Melo and Rose...won't even answer that one.

A healthy Wade in 08 might have been able to win it...he's the only player on that list that could have.
Please, in 08???? Kobe, Pau, Odom, Radmanovic, Fisher and a shit bench? Common man... Kobe had 32/6/6 on 50% until the finals and that great Celtics team...

Pau Gasol wasnt as good as in 10 too..

[Andrei89]

If that's a sure fire thing then why did LeBron lose in 2011 with a healthy Bosh, and Wade dominating like a Finals MVP?

Why did Wade also lose in 2011 with a healthy Bosh and the "best player in the world" in LeBron as his sidekick?

:confusedshrug:


Miami lost to the same team that SWEPT the defending champions.

Dallas was hot throughout the whole playoffs. One of the greatest playoff runs in history.

[Boarder Patrol]

Current Bron wins 09 and maybe 10.

Melo wins 09.

Wade idk cause that's really few shooters.

That team was really built for Kobe.

[Ronaldinho]

Lebron wins 2, Wade wins 1, Rose and Melo are still ringless. I think current Melo from 2009 on wins 1 though.
Kobe has more chance to win with the Nuggets in 09 than Melo with the Lakers.

[blablabla]

Dwyane Wade never had a playoff runs as good as Kobe in 08-10 but somehow he's suppossed to threepeat with that team despite fitting the team much worse than kobe

Lebron wins in 09, don't know about 10

[Genaro]

Hate for Kobe in this board is beyond ridiculous. You can hate all you want but you can't fight the facts.
Neither Rose, Wade or Lebron has enought shooting to keep teams from double Gasol. Melo doesn't have the defense or play making that Kobe brought to that team.

Bynum was a close to non factor as it gets on those runs. He was always injured and didn't play in the 4th in most games.
Fisher couldn't guard anyone, most point guards went off against Lakers.
Artest couldn't make a shot to save his life until game 7 of the finals.
The bench was very poor except for Odom.

That team was all Kobe, Gasol, Odom and Phil. Please don't act like this was a stacked powerhouse.

[Levity]

anyone that mentions bynum as a factor in the lakers championship run is an asshole and doesnt watch basketball

Bynum had 2.5 good years with LA. The year pau was acquired, bynum was having a coming out party, then got injured against memphis and missed the rest of the regular season. it was only after that injury when LA traded for Pau

and bynum was pretty much a non factor until mike browns first year with the team(but he was pretty decent the year he got hurt again against memphis), where bynum just dominated and was often referred to as the 2nd best C in the league.

[DMAVS41]

If that's a sure fire thing then why did LeBron lose in 2011 with a healthy Bosh, and Wade dominating like a Finals MVP?

Why did Wade also lose in 2011 with a healthy Bosh and the "best player in the world" in LeBron as his sidekick?

:confusedshrug:

That's like me saying....why did Kobe lose in 03 and 04. Why couldn't he win a playoff series without Shaq in 06 or 07...especially in 06.

I'm obviously assuming Lebron plays normal. Of course he's not winning shit if he plays like he did in the 11 finals.

And of course it's not a sure thing.

But the standard Lebron/Wade of 09 and 10 were no worse than Kobe. In fact, I thought they were both better players actually...does that mean they win for sure? Hell no, but this question is basically asking if Lebron and Wade were as good as Kobe...and of course they were.

You even have direct evidence...Lebron was better against the Magic in the 09 ECF than Kobe was in the 09 finals...and Wade was way better against the 10 Celtics than Kobe was in the finals.

Props to Kobe for actually getting it done, but damn...people are seriously under-rating Wade and Lebron in 09 and 10 if they think they were worse players.

[DMAVS41]

anyone that mentions bynum as a factor in the lakers championship run is an asshole and doesnt watch basketball

Bynum had 2.5 good years with LA. The year pau was acquired, bynum was having a coming out party, then got injured against memphis and missed the rest of the regular season. it was only after that injury when LA traded for Pau

and bynum was pretty much a non factor until mike browns first year with the team(but he was pretty decent the year he got hurt again against memphis), where bynum just dominated and was often referred to as the 2nd best C in the league.

Bynum absolutely was a factor in 10.

He played 24 minutes a game and put up 9/7/1....sorry, that is a factor.

He wasn't a star or anything, but a center playing that much and producing like that matters.

Remember when everyone was going on and on about Tyson Chandler?

Well...in the 11 run to the title...8/9/0

ROFL...Bynum was absolutely a factor

[ThePhantomCreep]

Bynum absolutely was a factor in 10.

He played 24 minutes a game and put up 9/7/1....sorry, that is a factor.

He wasn't a star or anything, but a center playing that much and producing like that matters.

Remember when everyone was going on and on about Tyson Chandler?

Well...in the 11 run to the title...8/9/0

ROFL...Bynum was absolutely a factor
Bynum was on one leg in the 2010 finals--even super-bum Kendrick Perkins was outplaying him.

It's amusing the way people people overrate that supporting cast. Wade couldn't even get past the Atlanta Hawks in a 7-game series but he's good for a three-peat?

[DMAVS41]

Bynum was on one leg in the 2010 finals--even super-bum Kendrick Perkins was outplaying him.

It's amusing the way people people overrate that supporting cast. Wade couldn't even get past the Atlanta Hawks in a 7-game series but he's good for a three-peat?

A playoff run is not just the finals. Bynum was a factor...just admit it.

I'm not saying he was great or anything, but he was a factor.


I didn't say Wade was "good for a 3 peat"...I said he would have had a chance with that 08 team...unlike Lebron. I don't think Lebron was good enough in 08 to get past the Celtics with that Lakers roster. The Lakers weren't elite defensively like the Cavs were...and Lebron really struggled against the celtics early on in his series.

Look...anyone acting like Kobe was on a different level or even just objectively better in any real way than Wade and Lebron in 09 and 10 is just living in la la land.

That doesn't mean Wade and Lebron do as well...we don't know what would happen. Different players and different teams...

But here is what Wade did to the Celtics in 2010;

33/6/7 65% TS

Does that mean he'd do that in the finals or in a big series? No, but at least it's evidence that he could play at least as well as Kobe against them. Same thing for Lebron imo...

[Fire Colangelo]

Lebron and Wade don't win shit with these teams.

They are built horribly for those two guys, with a clogged paint and no shooters around them Wade & Bron would have trouble.

The only person I can see winning with this team is Melo, but then you have to factor in you're losing Kobes play making and defense..

Kobes WCF in 09 & 10 were incredible and would not be duplicated easily..

I think Melo has the best shot with this team as his skill set would mesh well with the squad.

Lol'd at this clogging the paint crap. Because Varejao and Z were both stretch bigs? Gasol had very good mid range game, and a smaller line up of LeBron, Odom and Gasol would be wrecking the league. Are we gonna act like Shaq and UD were stretch bigs? UD had a good midrange jumper but so does gasol, yet Wade won with them.

[MadSolar]

A playoff run is not just the finals. Bynum was a factor...just admit it.

I'm not saying he was great or anything, but he was a factor.


I didn't say Wade was "good for a 3 peat"...I said he would have had a chance with that 08 team...unlike Lebron. I don't think Lebron was good enough in 08 to get past the Celtics with that Lakers roster. The Lakers weren't elite defensively like the Cavs were...and Lebron really struggled against the celtics early on in his series.

Look...anyone acting like Kobe was on a different level or even just objectively better in any real way than Wade and Lebron in 09 and 10 is just living in la la land.


That doesn't mean Wade and Lebron do as well...we don't know what would happen. Different players and different teams...

But here is what Wade did to the Celtics in 2010;

33/6/7 65% TS

Does that mean he'd do that in the finals or in a big series? No, but at least it's evidence that he could play at least as well as Kobe against them. Same thing for Lebron imo...
Lebron wouldn't even make it to the finals. He'd get shut down by the same team who shut him down in the 2007 finals.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Lebron three-peats easily. Wade probably wins at least 2 as well.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

A playoff run is not just the finals. Bynum was a factor...just admit it.

I'm not saying he was great or anything, but he was a factor.


I didn't say Wade was "good for a 3 peat"...I said he would have had a chance with that 08 team...unlike Lebron. I don't think Lebron was good enough in 08 to get past the Celtics with that Lakers roster. The Lakers weren't elite defensively like the Cavs were...and Lebron really struggled against the celtics early on in his series.

Look...anyone acting like Kobe was on a different level or even just objectively better in any real way than Wade and Lebron in 09 and 10 is just living in la la land.

That doesn't mean Wade and Lebron do as well...we don't know what would happen. Different players and different teams...

But here is what Wade did to the Celtics in 2010;

33/6/7 65% TS

Does that mean he'd do that in the finals or in a big series? No, but at least it's evidence that he could play at least as well as Kobe against them. Same thing for Lebron imo...

Andrew "The Factor" Bynum everybody...

http://i.imgur.com/Kfw6zop.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/RJ1bzy8.jpg

[Yao Ming's Foot]

In these mythological scenarios are Lebron and Wade facing the usual Eastern conference cream puffs or are they actually facing a legitimate path to the Finals?

[ThePhantomCreep]

Lebron three-peats easily. Wade probably wins at least 2 as well.

They couldn't even beat the Maveircks in their primes.

Together.

GTFO.

[DMAVS41]

Andrew "The Factor" Bynum everybody...

http://i.imgur.com/Kfw6zop.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/RJ1bzy8.jpg

I said 2010...not 09...

LOL...that is a factor!...that is great for a 24 minute a game 7 footer...

Jesus christ people...just admit Bynum was a factor in 2010...

[DMAVS41]

In these mythological scenarios are Lebron and Wade facing the usual Eastern conference cream puffs or are they actually facing a legitimate path to the Finals?

The 09 and 10 West roads the Lakers faced were nothing special man...

Sorry...who are Wade/Lebron losing to in the West those two years?

The Melo led Nuggets?
The Nash led Suns?

LOL

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The 09 and 10 West roads the Lakers faced were nothing special man...

Sorry...who are Wade/Lebron losing to in the West those two years?

The Melo led Nuggets?
The Nash led Suns?

LOL

Kobe probably beat more 50 win teams from 08-10 in the playoffs than Lebron has his entire career. :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Kobe probably beat more 50 win teams from 08-10 in the playoffs than Lebron has his entire career. :confusedshrug:

That isn't an answer

I want to know what West team we should assume beats Lebron and Wade

[Yao Ming's Foot]

That isn't an answer

I want to know what West team we should assume beats Lebron and Wade

Lebron OR Wade...

I know you are not used to them not playing together AND having another all star big man AND numerous "factors"

[DMAVS41]

Lebron OR Wade...

I know you are not used to them not playing together AND having another all star big man AND numerous "factors"

We all know what we are talking about...it's the Lakers with Lebron instead of Kobe...and the Lakers with Wade instead of Kobe.

I'm asking what series each of them loses in the West in 09 and 10...

[qrich]

Pau Gasol has to be one of the most confusing players for casual fans to rate with one side saying he was basically garbage and Kobe "made" him, while the other puts him on the same pedestal as Tim/KG/Dirk when he's right around prime Elton Brand (though Judas deserves the edge due to being a two way player, but that is another topic).

I mean, it's always pointed out that he struggled in the post season while in Memphis, but when your second leading scorer is giving you a whopping 13.7 ppg and two key guys on your roster are a 35 year old Mighty Mouse and 32 year old Eddie Jones, you will struggle. In the 06 playoffs, EJ was #2 behind Pau with an amazing 10.3 ppg.


Anyways, back to the topic at hand. Making the assumptions that the replacement stars are in their form from the respective year, I could see King James matching Bryant with two, Wade and Melo going 1-3 while Rose strikes out looking. You have to be kidding if you don't believe that the Zen Master would have found a way to incorporate LeBron into the teams, despite the flaws in the roster. Also, inputting LeBron/Melo, you need to swap Artest with a real shooting guard and with Rose, you need to swap Fisher with a shooting guard. Say, someone like, Cuttino Mobley?

Fish - Cat - LBJ/Melo - Pau - One Legged Bynum with Odom & Rose - Cat - Artest - Pau - Drew with Odom. Phil coaching those squads would be damn sexy to view. Well, maybe not the Rose one.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

We all know what we are talking about...it's the Lakers with Lebron instead of Kobe...and the Lakers with Wade instead of Kobe.

I'm asking what series each of them loses in the West in 09 and 10...

And I'm asking for any objective evidence to show that Lebron or Wade have a history of leading teams of similar makeup to victory against similarly objectively ranked teams.

Me telling you they would lose to this team or that team doesn't prove anything. Its a waste of time.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Pau Gasol has to be one of the most confusing players for casual fans to rate with one side saying he was basically garbage and Kobe "made" him, while the other puts him on the same pedestal as Tim/KG/Dirk when he's right around prime Elton Brand (though Judas deserves the edge due to being a two way player, but that is another topic).

I mean, it's always pointed out that he struggled in the post season while in Memphis, but when your second leading scorer is giving you a whopping 13.7 ppg and two key guys on your roster are a 35 year old Mighty Mouse and 32 year old Eddie Jones, you will struggle. In the 06 playoffs, EJ was #2 behind Pau with an amazing 10.3 ppg.


Anyways, back to the topic at hand. Making the assumptions that the replacement stars are in their form from the respective year, I could see King James matching Bryant with two, Wade and Melo going 1-3 while Rose strikes out looking. You have to be kidding if you don't believe that the Zen Master would have found a way to incorporate LeBron into the teams, despite the flaws in the roster. Also, inputting LeBron/Melo, you need to swap Artest with a real shooting guard and with Rose, you need to swap Fisher with a shooting guard. Say, someone like, Cuttino Mobley?

Fish - Cat - LBJ/Melo - Pau - One Legged Bynum with Odom & Rose - Cat - Artest - Pau - Drew with Odom. Phil coaching those squads would be damn sexy to view. Well, maybe not the Rose one.

LeBron or wade without the ball in their hands 22 out of 24 seconds? Doesn't sound good at all.

[DMAVS41]

And I'm asking for any objective evidence to show that Lebron or Wade have a history of leading teams of similar makeup to victory against similarly objectively ranked teams.

Me telling you they would lose to this team or that team doesn't prove anything. Its a waste of time.

What are you talking about?

Wade in 05 and 06 was leading his teams deep in the playoffs.

Lebron was playing the same teams Kobe played even better with less help.

I really don't follow....you would be using evidence against Lebron while playing with much worse teams.

Again...we have to assume normal play. If it's Lebron 2011 finals...then of course he loses and I don't see the point of the discussion.

But even then that is there for Kobe. We could invoke his worst series of his career as well...just don't see the point because it didn't happen.

and certainly with Lebron...he clearly had worse help in 13 playoffs than Kobe had in 09 and 10...you do realize that...right? Kobe's help in 09 and 10 trumps easily Lebron's help in 13 playoffs...and the spurs, for example, were better than any team the 09 Lakers beat.

Also, where do you get the idea of similar teams? The Lakers were clear favorites in every series they played in 08 through 10 outside the two Celtics series.

[Fire Colangelo]

And I'm asking for any objective evidence to show that Lebron or Wade have a history of leading teams of similar makeup to victory against similarly objectively ranked teams.

Me telling you they would lose to this team or that team doesn't prove anything. Its a waste of time.

Not even Jordan would lead those lakers teams to championships going by your logic.

Unless you don't think Jordan wins with those lakers teams.

[qrich]

LeBron or wade without the ball in their hands 22 out of 24 seconds? Doesn't sound good at all.

And that would be the game plan why again?

Plus, when has that ever been the way the Lakers have played with Kobe?

[ThePhantomCreep]

And that would be the game plan why again?

Plus, when has that ever been the way the Lakers have played with Kobe?
It wouldn't be, Phil runs the triangle offense. LeBron and wade constantly need the ball in their hands to be effective. Take that away and they tend to disappear (see: LeBron 2011 finals).

[ThePhantomCreep]

What are you talking about?

Wade in 05 and 06 was leading his teams deep in the playoffs.

Lebron was playing the same teams Kobe played even better with less help.

I really don't follow....you would be using evidence against Lebron while playing with much worse teams.

Again...we have to assume normal play. If it's Lebron 2011 finals...then of course he loses and I don't see the point of the discussion.

But even then that is there for Kobe. We could invoke his worst series of his career as well...just don't see the point because it didn't happen.

and certainly with Lebron...he clearly had worse help in 13 playoffs than Kobe had in 09 and 10...you do realize that...right? Kobe's help in 09 and 10 trumps easily Lebron's help in 13 playoffs...and the spurs, for example, were better than any team the 09 Lakers beat.

Also, where do you get the idea of similar teams? The Lakers were clear favorites in every series they played in 08 through 10 outside the two Celtics series.if this is a reference to Celtics series, get real. LeBron blatantly and obviously quit on his team in the crucial 5th game. That performance is nothing to brag about.

[DMAVS41]

if this is a reference to Celtics series, get real. LeBron blatantly and obviously quit on his team in the crucial 5th game. That performance is nothing to brag about.

It was in reference to the Magic and Celtics.

Lebron was as good or better overall in those series...I honestly don't care which one you pick.

The point is...there is no reason to think Lebron wouldn't match Kobe's output with objectively better help.

Not to mention going from ****ing Mike Brown to one of the best coaches ever....

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What are you talking about?

Wade in 05 and 06 was leading his teams deep in the playoffs.


Lebron was playing the same teams Kobe played even better with less help.

I really don't follow....you would be using evidence against Lebron while playing with much worse teams.

Again...we have to assume normal play. If it's Lebron 2011 finals...then of course he loses and I don't see the point of the discussion.

But even then that is there for Kobe. We could invoke his worst series of his career as well...just don't see the point because it didn't happen.

and certainly with Lebron...he clearly had worse help in 13 playoffs than Kobe had in 09 and 10...you do realize that...right? Kobe's help in 09 and 10 trumps easily Lebron's help in 13 playoffs...and the spurs, for example, were better than any team the 09 Lakers beat.

Also, where do you get the idea of similar teams? The Lakers were clear favorites in every series they played in 08 through 10 outside the two Celtics series.

Why are you always so confused? It couldn't be any more simple.

Have Lebron or Wade ever consistently beaten a series of teams on par objectively with the "nothing special" path to the championship Kobe dealt with every time out?

Objectively what is about the 09 Magic that you don't think makes them comparable to the 13 Spurs?

You don't win championships by "matching outputs" you do it by winning games.

[Dresta]

Dwyane Wade never had a playoff runs as good as Kobe in 08-10 but somehow he's suppossed to threepeat with that team despite fitting the team much worse than kobe

Lebron wins in 09, don't know about 10
:wtf:

Not alive in 06 then i take it? Wade's run in 10-11 was also equally as good if not better than Kobe's 07-08 also, and 04-05 could have been something special if not cut short by injury too.

And i don't know why people keep bringing up this Western Conference bollocks as if that'd harm Bron or Wade, when Western Conference teams routinely have worse defense, play at a higher place, and thus allow the accumulation of better stats. It's why Wade usually performs better against Western conference teams than Eastern. Kobe just padded his stats against the no-defense Nuggets, but when he got to play a team with real defense in the finals, he floundered as usual. Wade also decimated the same Celtics team that made Kobe one of the worst finals MVPs in some time.

At least 2 titles for Wade and James, if not 3 for Wade.

[Dresta]

Why are you always so confused? It couldn't be any more simple.

Have Lebron or Wade ever consistently beaten a series of teams on par objectively with the "nothing special" path to the championship Kobe dealt with every time out?

Objectively what is about the 09 Magic that you don't think makes them comparable to the 13 Spurs?

You don't win championships by "matching outputs" you do it by winning games.
err.. yeah 06 Wade: Bulls, Nets, Pistons, Mavs (who beat Spurs and were big favourites).

And much better teams than what Kobe faced in 09: Utah, Rockets (sans T-mac and Yao), the Nuggets led by Melo (lol), and the Magic led by Dwight (double lol).

And in 10? an inexperience OKC, the Jazz again, Phoenix (with an ancient Nash only playing 30mpg) and the Celtics (who Kobe needed an injury and to be saved by Pau to win).

Wade's path was certainly the more difficult one, and even more certainly the one where it has harder to put up good stats. Kobe had inflated playoff averages because each year he played teams with sucky defense in the Conference finals.

[Ronaldinho]

:wtf:

Not alive in 06 then i take it? Wade's run in 10-11 was also equally as good if not better than Kobe's 07-08 also, and 04-05 could have been something special if not cut short by injury too.

And i don't know why people keep bringing up this Western Conference bollocks as if that'd harm Bron or Wade, when Western Conference teams routinely have worse defense, play at a higher place, and thus allow the accumulation of better stats. It's why Wade usually performs better against Western conference teams than Eastern. Kobe just padded his stats against the no-defense Nuggets, but when he got to play a team with real defense in the finals, he floundered as usual. Wade also decimated the same Celtics team that made Kobe one of the worst finals MVPs in some time.

At least 2 titles for Wade and James, if not 3 for Wade.
Kobe had 3 straight final appearance averagin 30/6/5/2 .46 with two titles. Wade never came close to that. I dont know if Wade could win in 9, 10. He was a hell of a player, but i dont think he could put Kobe numbers for three straight playoffs.

Anyway, Kobe probably gets 5 titles with the Heat, if him and Wade switch places. Two with Shaq, and three with Lebron, injuries aside.

[Dresta]

Kobe had 3 straight final appearance averagin 30/6/5/2 .46 with two titles. Wade never came close to that. I dont know if Wade could win in 9, 10. He was a hell of a player, but i dont think he could put Kobe numbers for three straight playoffs.

Anyway, Kobe probably gets 5 titles with the Heat, if him and Wade switch places. Two with Shaq, and three with Lebron, injuries aside.
You are not making any sense. So what if he did it 3 years in a row? That has no relevance to the question at hand.

Kobe gets 5 titles with the Heat :lol ?

As if 05 or 06 Kobe and his humungous ego could have meshed effectively with declining Shaq and his huge ego, and as if Kobe could have done more than Wade in the 2011 - plz, Kobe has NEVER had a finals where he played as well as Wade did in 11.

Kobe has 5 titles because he got them playing with a guy having one of the most dominant primes of all time. Stop with the bs.

[Doranku]

err.. yeah 06 Wade: Bulls, Nets, Pistons, Mavs (who beat Spurs and were big favourites).

And much better teams than what Kobe faced in 09: Utah, Rockets (sans T-mac and Yao), the Nuggets led by Melo (lol), and the Magic led by Dwight (double lol).

And in 10? an inexperience OKC, the Jazz again, Phoenix (with an ancient Nash only playing 30mpg) and the Celtics (who Kobe needed an injury and to be saved by Pau to win).

Wade's path was certainly the more difficult one, and even more certainly the one where it has harder to put up good stats. Kobe had inflated playoff averages because each year he played teams with sucky defense in the Conference finals.

God damn you're a retard. :oldlol:

'08 Spurs - 3rd in defense
'09 Nuggets - 8th in defense

Yeah, very inflated from playing "sucky defenses" indeed. Funny that you mention inflated numbers because '05-06 was far and away the easiest year for perimeter players to score in recent history. Kobe put up 35 a game, AI 33 a game, Bron 31 a game. And let's not even get into the disgusting officiating bias that Wade received during the finals. Talk about inflated numbers... :oldlol:

Not to mention Wade completely broke down after that single finals run, while Kobe was putting up 30/5/5 over the course of three deep playoff runs which resulted in three finals appearances and back-to-back rings. Wade simply did not have the durability to match what Kobe did in '08-10.

[Dresta]

God damn you're a retard. :oldlol:

'08 Spurs - 3rd in defense
'09 Nuggets - 8th in defense

Yeah, very inflated from playing "sucky defenses" indeed. Funny that you mention inflated numbers because '05-06 was far and away the easiest year for perimeter players to score in recent history. Kobe put up 35 a game, AI 33 a game, Bron 31 a game. And let's not even get into the disgusting officiating bias that Wade received during the finals. Talk about inflated numbers... :oldlol:

Not to mention Wade completely broke down after that single finals run, while Kobe was putting up 30/5/5 over the course of three deep playoff runs which resulted in three finals appearances and back-to-back rings. Wade simply did not have the durability to match what Kobe did in '08-10.
Nuggets' defense sucked, deal with it. The other team you picked wasn't even a part of either of the years i was referring to, so... good one! Why don't you go check Lebron's numbers against the Pistons that year, and then Wade's, if you actually think that nonsense about it being easy to score being why Wade put together such a remarkable run (again: superior to anything Kobe has ever done).

And Wade didn't 'completely break down' because of his title run: he came out in 06/07 and was the best player in the league until Battier ****ed him up. Then instead of taking season-ending surgery, he opted for rehab when he shouldn't (because Heat were defending champs) and got swept by the Bulls playing as a shell of himself.

[DMAVS41]

God damn you're a retard. :oldlol:

'08 Spurs - 3rd in defense
'09 Nuggets - 8th in defense

Yeah, very inflated from playing "sucky defenses" indeed. Funny that you mention inflated numbers because '05-06 was far and away the easiest year for perimeter players to score in recent history. Kobe put up 35 a game, AI 33 a game, Bron 31 a game. And let's not even get into the disgusting officiating bias that Wade received during the finals. Talk about inflated numbers... :oldlol:

Not to mention Wade completely broke down after that single finals run, while Kobe was putting up 30/5/5 over the course of three deep playoff runs which resulted in three finals appearances and back-to-back rings. Wade simply did not have the durability to match what Kobe did in '08-10.


Just wanted to chime in and remind people that;

Manu was hobbled in that 08 series. That was huge for the Spurs and even bigger for Kobe as the Spurs didn't have anyone else to challenge the sg position on the other team.

Every Lakers/Kobe fan fails to acknowledge this. The Lakers might still have won and Kobe might have still dominated and played fantastic, but we would be dishonest not to remember that. Old Finley and Barry played a lot in that series and again, Manu was a shell.


The Nuggets defense did not "suck"...that is simply not true. But they also weren't great or special or anything...and they struggled to slow down star players.

Dirk went for 34/12/4 66% TS against them...and I'd argue that they had better defense at the bigs than the guards for sure. They had Nene, Martin, and Birdman guarding centers and pf's. They did have Dahntay Jones on the perimeter to defend, but he didnt play much. Kobe was going against Billups, Melo, and JR Smith for the majority of that series. And while that absolutely does not "suck"...it's hardly great.

Kobe was GREAT in both those series though and pretending otherwise is silly.

Could Wade and Lebron have matched him? Absolutely. Would they have for sure? Of course not.

These hypotheticals are fun, but we'll never know.

[DMAVS41]

Why are you always so confused? It couldn't be any more simple.

Have Lebron or Wade ever consistently beaten a series of teams on par objectively with the "nothing special" path to the championship Kobe dealt with every time out?

Objectively what is about the 09 Magic that you don't think makes them comparable to the 13 Spurs?

You don't win championships by "matching outputs" you do it by winning games.

You act like the path was difficult...there were two teams Kobe faced from 08 through 10 that he wasn't a clear favorite against. The 08 Celtics and the 10 Celtics. That's it.

As for the 09 Magic and 13 Spurs. I really don't think it's debatable. But we don't even have to debate that. What's not debatable is that Kobe had more help in 09 and 10, objectively, than Lebron did in the 13 playoffs. It's just a fact.

So Lebron did what you are asking in 13. The Pacers in the 13 playoffs were every bit as tough as the 09 Nuggets...in fact, due to the bad matchup and inept play of his teammates, I think Lebron had a harder series. Same thing for the finals.

Wade proved what he could do in the playoffs all the way back in 05 and 06.

You are really over-rating the competition Kobe faced from 08 through 10.

I'll ask again...what series do you see a healthy Wade and Lebron losing during those years?

Kobe had a pretty big margin of error at times during those runs. He was hurt in the OKC series and played like ass a couple games. Put him on a team like Wade had in 09 and they lose in round 1 with him playing like that. Kobe got to survive an inept game 7 in the 10 finals as well.

What evidence do I have? Since the 08 season Lebron has been to the conference finals 4 times and the finals 3 times. And he's just won games at an alarming rate overall as a player despite not having Kobe level help in some those years like 09, 10, and the 13 playoffs.

Wade, before he would hit his true peak in 09/10, was dominating teams in the playoffs. 09/10/11 Wade was a more polished and savy player than he was in 05 and 06. Given what we know about him...I don't think it's a big leap at all...in fact, it's not a leap at all. It's just projecting within the normal range of results.

Again, especially as we saw these guys play the same ****ing teams within weeks of each other.

[red1]

wade and james win 2 each. melo and rose I doubt win anything

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You act like the path was difficult...there were two teams Kobe faced from 08 through 10 that he wasn't a clear favorite against. The 08 Celtics and the 10 Celtics. That's it.

As for the 09 Magic and 13 Spurs. I really don't think it's debatable. But we don't even have to debate that. What's not debatable is that Kobe had more help in 09 and 10, objectively, than Lebron did in the 13 playoffs. It's just a fact.

So Lebron did what you are asking in 13. The Pacers in the 13 playoffs were every bit as tough as the 09 Nuggets...in fact, due to the bad matchup and inept play of his teammates, I think Lebron had a harder series. Same thing for the finals.

Wade proved what he could do in the playoffs all the way back in 05 and 06.

You are really over-rating the competition Kobe faced from 08 through 10.

I'll ask again...what series do you see a healthy Wade and Lebron losing during those years?

Kobe had a pretty big margin of error at times during those runs. He was hurt in the OKC series and played like ass a couple games. Put him on a team like Wade had in 09 and they lose in round 1 with him playing like that. Kobe got to survive an inept game 7 in the 10 finals as well.

What evidence do I have? Since the 08 season Lebron has been to the conference finals 4 times and the finals 3 times. And he's just won games at an alarming rate overall as a player despite not having Kobe level help in some those years like 09, 10, and the 13 playoffs.

Wade, before he would hit his true peak in 09/10, was dominating teams in the playoffs. 09/10/11 Wade was a more polished and savy player than he was in 05 and 06. Given what we know about him...I don't think it's a big leap at all...in fact, it's not a leap at all. It's just projecting within the normal range of results.

Again, especially as we saw these guys play the same ****ing teams within weeks of each other.

Beating objectively weaker teams in the East isn't evidence of being able to beating objectively superior teams in the West. I don't care how "deep" Lebron got if he only faced one team with a winning record before getting swept in the Finals.

I also have no idea why you are still parroting that OKC nonsense when his numbers in those 4 wins were elite.

[ThePhantomCreep]

I like how homers bring up Wade's individual dominance in the 2010 playoffs...a series Boston won without breaking a sweat. You're on crack if you think Wade does that against Boston in a Finals setting.

After Wade's dubious, FT-assisted title in 2006, he was one-and-done until LeBron arrived. He even had a 15 win season sandwiched between first round losses to noted superpowers like the Ben Gordon's Bulls and the Atlanta Hawks. Quit acting like he's Jesus turning water into wine.

[Deuce Bigalow]

:wtf:

Not alive in 06 then i take it? Wade's run in 10-11 was also equally as good if not better than Kobe's 07-08 also, and 04-05 could have been something special if not cut short by injury too.

And i don't know why people keep bringing up this Western Conference bollocks as if that'd harm Bron or Wade, when Western Conference teams routinely have worse defense, play at a higher place, and thus allow the accumulation of better stats. It's why Wade usually performs better against Western conference teams than Eastern. Kobe just padded his stats against the no-defense Nuggets, but when he got to play a team with real defense in the finals, he floundered as usual. Wade also decimated the same Celtics team that made Kobe one of the worst finals MVPs in some time.

At least 2 titles for Wade and James, if not 3 for Wade.
:facepalm

This ****** claims Kobe floundered when he played a good defensive team, but Wade in 2011 which is supposedly better than Kobe's 08 when he averaged 18 ppg on 50%TS with 5 t/o vs the Bulls in the ECF :roll:

Lebron doesn't flounder in the Finals at all, I mean just look at his Finals stats :roll:
07 vs spurs he averaged 22 ppg on 36% and in 2013 he averaged 25 ppg on 45% in a season he shot 57% :roll:

Correct answer here is that none of them advance to the NBA Finals except for maybe Bran in 09 with him winning it that year.

[red1]

:facepalm

This ****** claims Kobe floundered when he played a good defensive team, but Wade in 2011 which is supposedly better than Kobe's 08 when he averaged 18 ppg on 50%TS with 5 t/o vs the Bulls in the ECF :roll:

Lebron doesn't flounder in the Finals at all, I mean just look at his Finals stats :roll:
07 vs spurs he averaged 22 ppg on 36% and in 2013 he averaged 25 ppg on 45% in a season he shot 57% :roll:

Correct answer here is that none of them advance to the NBA Finals except for maybe Bran in 09 with him winning it that year.
09 and 10 were absolute prime years for both. Lets be real here both players were good enough that year to win it all with that supporting cast. Who would they lose to? Melo's nugs? Dwight magic? If bron took those celts to six with his cast then I have zero doubt he wins with the laker cast. That 2010 cast was good enough to neutralize any other front court in the league and as dominant defensively and offensively wade and james were I have a very difficult time believing they would lose to any of the teams kobe faced during those years. This is not to discredit bean because he was consistently dominant but then again so were wade and james those years.

[PsychoBe]

09 and 10 were absolute prime years for both. Lets be real here both players were good enough that year to win it all with that supporting cast. Who would they lose to? Melo's nugs? Dwight magic? If bron took those celts to six with his cast then I have zero doubt he wins with the laker cast. That 2010 cast was good enough to neutralize any other front court in the league and as dominant defensively and offensively wade and james were I have a very difficult time believing they would lose to any of the teams kobe faced during those years. This is not to discredit bean because he was consistently dominant but then again so were wade and james those years.

melo had ai and chauncey so don't forget that.

bran lost to dwight's magics and we all know how he struggles against the celtics without another all-star perimeter player. the exact same thing can be said about wade.

i'm not saying they exactly need each other but bran and wade need another consistent perimeter presence to absolutely dominate (and i know wade won without one in 06' but he was in his physical prime/peak with more perimeter-friendly rules).

[DMAVS41]

Beating objectively weaker teams in the East isn't evidence of being able to beating objectively superior teams in the West. I don't care how "deep" Lebron got if he only faced one team with a winning record before getting swept in the Finals.

I also have no idea why you are still parroting that OKC nonsense when his numbers in those 4 wins were elite.

And Lebron had objectively weaker help.

So I'm to suspect that Lebron is going to play worse against the same teams when he has more help?

That isn't how logic works in a hypothetical like this.

And I've already said that if we are talking 11 Lebron in the finals...then of course they don't win.

I just don't see the point of that. It's like assuming 00 or 04 Kobe in the finals...no team isn't winning shit with that version of Kobe as the best player.


Also, Wade beat a 06 Mavs team objectively better than any team Kobe beat in 09. Wade performs better against the Celtics than Kobe as well.

What series is Wade losing? To the 10 Suns? LOL...

You want me to think Lebron can't out duel Melo with more help in a series? LOL...

[DMAVS41]

melo had ai and chauncey so don't forget that.

bran lost to dwight's magics and we all know how he struggles against the celtics without another all-star perimeter player. the exact same thing can be said about wade.

i'm not saying they exactly need each other but bran and wade need another consistent perimeter presence to absolutely dominate (and i know wade won without one in 06' but he was in his physical prime/peak with more perimeter-friendly rules).

there is so much wrong here.

iverson did not play on the 09 Nuggets team in the playoffs.

Wade is way better against the Celtics than Kobe was. The way the Celtics defend players....Wade actually causes them more matchup problems. You are totally off on this.

As for Lebron...he murked the Magic and it was clear his team wasn't good enough.

Lebron vs Magic

39/8/ 59% TS

Kobe vs Magic

32/6/7 52% TS

You really want us to think Lebron would lose to those Magic with significantly better help?

How about Lebron vs Celtics

27/9/7 56% TS

Kobe vs Celtics

29/8/4 53% TS


There is absolutely no reason to think Lebron couldn't match or exceed Kobe's output in those series. And if you grant that...then he's winning...because the burden of proof would be on the Kobe side to prove that we should assume Lebron can't beat the ****ing Melo led Nuggets or Nash led Suns.

Oh...and here is what Wade did to that team he apparently struggles against.

Wade vs Celtics

33/6/7 65% TS

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[TheMarkMadsen]

And Lebron had objectively weaker help.

So I'm to suspect that Lebron is going to play worse against the same teams when he has more help?

That isn't how logic works in a hypothetical like this.

And I've already said that if we are talking 11 Lebron in the finals...then of course they don't win.

I just don't see the point of that. It's like assuming 00 or 04 Kobe in the finals...no team isn't winning shit with that version of Kobe as the best player.


Also, Wade beat a 06 Mavs team objectively better than any team Kobe beat in 09. Wade performs better against the Celtics than Kobe as well.

What series is Wade losing? To the 10 Suns? LOL...

You want me to think Lebron can't out duel Melo with more help in a series? LOL...


You're not even taking into account how Wade & Lebrons performances are going to be affected by having a team with a clogged paint and no shooters

[red1]

melo had ai and chauncey so don't forget that.

bran lost to dwight's magics and we all know how he struggles against the celtics without another all-star perimeter player. the exact same thing can be said about wade.

i'm not saying they exactly need each other but bran and wade need another consistent perimeter presence to absolutely dominate (and i know wade won without one in 06' but he was in his physical prime/peak with more perimeter-friendly rules).
The heat just won twice without a single centre on the roster and with zero rebounding and interior defense. Do you know how ridiculous that is? The only reason they pulled that off is because of the greatness of their perimeter players and its not chalmers or 36 year old ray allen that we are talking about here. Who's to say that they need each other to win. Few players in nba history were as dominant as 09 and 10 wade and james, kobe is one of the few. I have no doubt that kobe would win in wade's place on these heat teams and i have no doubt that wade and james would win in kobes place on those odom/gasol/phil jackson laker teams.

[DMAVS41]

You're not even taking into account how Wade & Lebrons performances are going to be affected by having a team with a clogged paint and no shooters

I don't have to. it would be more than made up by having a GOAT level coach and objectively better players.

What did Wade have when he went nuts on the Celtics in 2010? Outside of Chalmers he had dog shit playing even worse than normal in that series and he went off.

You really think the results individually or team wise are going to be worse replacing mike brown with a GOAT level coach and objectively better help?

Why even talk about hypotheticals if that is the conclusion you want others to reach.

[red1]

You're not even taking into account how Wade & Lebrons performances are going to be affected by having a team with a clogged paint and no shooters
They dont need to be as good as kobe at shooting the ball. With their added defensive abilities those laker teams with that length in the frontcourt and speed and athleticism on the wings would be a nightmare. Could you imagine a lineup of ariza/wade/odom/gasol. My goodness. Wade and james would create so many easy opportunities for odom and gasol. All they need is a big with good hands who can finish and then you give them two? Game over.

[chazzy]

To the 10 Suns? LOL...

Why scoff at that team? One of the best offenses ever statistically, swept the Spurs. Could've easily gone to 7 games with Kobe having one of his greatest series.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Amazing that posters would turn to the "LeBron has no help" defense when part of his "help" is the subject of this thread, Dwyane Wade. A guy who supposedly can three-peat with Kobe's '08-'10 supporting casts. A player who still can provide 20/5 in the Finals. Not to mention Bosh, Allen (71.5 TS% in the 2013 Finals) and Chalmers. LeBron's team was easily more stacked than the 2008-2010 Lakers.

[Dresta]

Just wanted to chime in and remind people that;

Manu was hobbled in that 08 series. That was huge for the Spurs and even bigger for Kobe as the Spurs didn't have anyone else to challenge the sg position on the other team.

Every Lakers/Kobe fan fails to acknowledge this. The Lakers might still have won and Kobe might have still dominated and played fantastic, but we would be dishonest not to remember that. Old Finley and Barry played a lot in that series and again, Manu was a shell.


The Nuggets defense did not "suck"...that is simply not true. But they also weren't great or special or anything...and they struggled to slow down star players.

Dirk went for 34/12/4 66% TS against them...and I'd argue that they had better defense at the bigs than the guards for sure. They had Nene, Martin, and Birdman guarding centers and pf's. They did have Dahntay Jones on the perimeter to defend, but he didnt play much. Kobe was going against Billups, Melo, and JR Smith for the majority of that series. And while that absolutely does not "suck"...it's hardly great.

Kobe was GREAT in both those series though and pretending otherwise is silly.

Could Wade and Lebron have matched him? Absolutely. Would they have for sure? Of course not.

These hypotheticals are fun, but we'll never know.

:kobe:

Bottom line: for a conference finalist their defense wasn't very good, particularly their perimeter defense, and Kobe took advantage of that, as he should.

As for the moron saying the Celtics didn't 'break a sweat' playing against Wade & the Heat in 10, well, they obviously did. Allen was on fire that series and games 1, 3 and 5 were all close, with Pierce having to hit a gamewinner in one if i remember correctly. Sorry, but bs like 'they weren't trying in that series so the stats don't count' ain't gonna cut it, especially when it comes to someone like Wade who has upped his performance in the finals every single time he's been there; i can only say the opposite for Kobe.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I don't have to. it would be more than made up by having a GOAT level coach and objectively better players.

What did Wade have when he went nuts on the Celtics in 2010? Outside of Chalmers he had dog shit playing even worse than normal in that series and he went off.

You really think the results individually or team wise are going to be worse replacing mike brown with a GOAT level coach and objectively better help?

Why even talk about hypotheticals if that is the conclusion you want others to reach.

Way to talk around an actual answer.

Those teams are the built the exact opposite at you'd want to build a team around wade or Lebron.

And you've got to stop acting like Wade was curing cancer in that series, it was a first round series in which he lost.. like somebody already said.. Boston didnt break a sweat in that series.

It humorous how you'll use Kobes 06 first round series loss as a way to belittle his season then turn around and use Wades first round loss to prop him up.

[Dresta]

You're not even taking into account how Wade & Lebrons performances are going to be affected by having a team with a clogged paint and no shooters
Perhaps that argument could be used for Bron, but not Wade, who won a title with such brilliant shooters as Shaq, Haslem, Walker and J-Will in the starting line-up.

Having a clogged paint didn't seem to bother his game one bit.

[TheMarkMadsen]

They dont need to be as good as kobe at shooting the ball. With their added defensive abilities those laker teams with that length in the frontcourt and speed and athleticism on the wings would be a nightmare. Could you imagine a lineup of ariza/wade/odom/gasol. My goodness. Wade and james would create so many easy opportunities for odom and gasol. All they need is a big with good hands who can finish and then you give them two? Game over.

That line up.. Would have absolutely no floor spacing..

[ThePhantomCreep]

You're not even taking into account how Wade & Lebrons performances are going to be affected by having a team with a clogged paint and no shooters

They're also not taking into account how the triangle offense, by nature, diminishes their strengths. LeBron and Wade are absurdly ball-dominant players and their effectiveness instantly declines the second they have to play off the ball. That "pound the rock for 20 seconds then kick it to an open shooter" stuff doesn't fly in the Phil's triangle.

Trying to imagine Wade and LeBron playing the high post :roll: . Two guys with no post-up games to speak of. Teams would laugh and stay with the shooters and bigs.

[red1]

Perhaps that argument could be used for Bron, but not Wade, who won a title with such brilliant shooters as Shaq, Haslem, Walker and J-Will in the starting line-up.

Having a clogged paint didn't seem to bother his game one bit.
These posters are too used to seeing the wade of the last two years and have forgotten how good he was in 09/10. Playing with those rosters means guaranteed chamionships. Ditto for that version of lebron.

[DMAVS41]

Way to talk around an actual answer.

Those teams are the built the exact opposite at you'd want to build a team around wade or Lebron.

And you've got to stop acting like Wade was curing cancer in that series, it was a first round series in which he lost.. like somebody already said.. Boston didnt break a sweat in that series.

It humorous how you'll use Kobes 06 first round series loss as a way to belittle his season then turn around and use Wades first round loss to prop him up.

Well, Wade played much better than Kobe did in 10 vs 06 in the playoffs.

Also, it's the exact same competition the exact same year.

What evidence do you have that Wade is going to play worse on a better team with a better coach agains the same team?????? Makes no ****ing sense.

It's not talking around an answer.

There is no evidence to support that a normal Wade or Lebron wouldn't be able to match or exceed what Kobe did against teams like the Magic and Celtics.

Does that mean they for sure do it? Of course not, but in a hypothetical like this you can't account for anomalies...again...then we might as well invoke Kobe in the 00 or 04 finals...that wouldn't make sense or be fair though.

And there is simply no reason to believe that those guys wouldn't get by the average competition the Lakers faced. Melo led Nuggets? Nash led Suns?

Why would they beat a Wade or Lebron led Lakers team with the GOAT coach and better rosters than those guys had, by far, those years?

[Heavincent]

I'm not sure either Lebron or Wade get passed the 2010 Suns. As chazzy mentioned, Kobe had a legendary series against them. Wade and Lebron would have to ramp it up to a whole new level in order to win.

DMAVS is really underrating that Suns team. They're one of the greatest offenses of that decade. Prime Nash and Stoudemire with shooters all over the court. lol at thinking they're some cake walk.

[ThePhantomCreep]

:kobe:

Bottom line: for a conference finalist their defense wasn't very good, particularly their perimeter defense, and Kobe took advantage of that, as he should.

As for the moron saying the Celtics didn't 'break a sweat' playing against Wade & the Heat in 10, well, they obviously did. Allen was on fire that series and games 1, 3 and 5 were all close, with Pierce having to hit a gamewinner in one if i remember correctly. Sorry, but bs like 'they weren't trying in that series so the stats don't count' ain't gonna cut it, especially when it comes to someone like Wade who has upped his performance in the finals every single time he's been there; i can only say the opposite for Kobe.

:roll: @ this nonsense. It's playoff basketball, there are bound to be close games in a 7-game series. Who cares? The Lakers routinely played close games against the Jazz in the 2009 and 2010 playoffs--nobody remembers them being fiercely contested series. That's because they ended in 4-5 games. The Lakers played down to their opponent, then crushed them when it mattered. That is what Boston did to Miami in 2010.

Hell, there were probably a few close games in 2007, when Wade and the defending champion Heat were swept by Ben Gordon's Chicago Bulls. I don't remember though.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Perhaps that argument could be used for Bron, but not Wade, who won a title with such brilliant shooters as Shaq, Haslem, Walker and J-Will in the starting line-up.

Having a clogged paint didn't seem to bother his game one bit.

:biggums:

Walker and J Will combined for ten 3 point attempts per game and both shot at about 36% from 3

Posey was taking four 3's per game as well, hitting 40% in the regular season and 42% from 3 in the post season while taking 4 per game

There were only 2 players on the 09 Lakers who took more than three 3 point attempts per game, Fisher & Kobe..

and once the playoff began, Ariza stepped up his 3pt shooting, which was a life saver considering Fisher was still taking three 3 pointers per game..on 28%

[chazzy]

09 Wade had back spasms down the stretch of his lone playoff series - given his track record do we assume that happens again? And Lebron had his "elbow injury" meltdown against the Celtics - 46.8 TS% and over 6 TOs in 3 straight losses.. should we factor these in?

[DMAVS41]

Why scoff at that team? One of the best offenses ever statistically, swept the Spurs. Could've easily gone to 7 games with Kobe having one of his greatest series.

It's not scoffing at them completely.

But I find you funny..you bring them up sweeping the Spurs...yet you used to claim how the Spurs were no good in 2010 in order to degrade Dirk and the Mavs in 10 and claim it was an upset.

Also, that same Suns team needed 6 to beat the Blazers and was really weak defensively.

It wasn't just Kobe...everyone on the Lakers played really well.

Lebron averaged 32/9/8 67% TS against the Bulls in the 10 playoffs...against a much better defense than the Suns. No reason to think he can't do something like that against the Suns...so I'm confused.

It doesn't have to just go 7 though...the Suns have to beat them. And I just don't see how they beat a healthy Wade or Lebron in a hypothetical like this.

Anything is of course possible, but we just saw Wade destroy the 10 Celtics. We know what Lebron does to weaker defenses...

Just don't see how that is enough to warrant a win in 6...to losing the series.

[DMAVS41]

09 Wade had back spasms down the stretch of his lone playoff series - given his track record do we assume that happens again? And Lebron had his "elbow injury" meltdown against the Celtics - 46.8 TS% and over 6 TOs in 3 straight losses.. should we factor these in?

I was assuming health for Wade.

With Lebron...I don't think it matters. Despite that...he was still as good was against the exact same team...just with far less help and infinitely worse coaching.

[chazzy]

It's not scoffing at them completely.

But I find you funny..you bring them up sweeping the Spurs...yet you used to claim how the Spurs were no good in 2010 in order to degrade Dirk and the Mavs in 10 and claim it was an upset.
I purposely brought that up because you hype up that Spurs team to claim it wasn't an upset they beat the Mavs

[PsychoBe]

there is so much wrong here.

iverson did not play on the 09 Nuggets team in the playoffs.

Wade is way better against the Celtics than Kobe was. The way the Celtics defend players....Wade actually causes them more matchup problems. You are totally off on this.

As for Lebron...he murked the Magic and it was clear his team wasn't good enough.

Lebron vs Magic

39/8/ 59% TS

Kobe vs Magic

32/6/7 52% TS

You really want us to think Lebron would lose to those Magic with significantly better help?

How about Lebron vs Celtics

27/9/7 56% TS

Kobe vs Celtics

29/8/4 53% TS


There is absolutely no reason to think Lebron couldn't match or exceed Kobe's output in those series. And if you grant that...then he's winning...because the burden of proof would be on the Kobe side to prove that we should assume Lebron can't beat the ****ing Melo led Nuggets or Nash led Suns.

Oh...and here is what Wade did to that team he apparently struggles against.

Wade vs Celtics

33/6/7 65% TS

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

i was going off memory and didn't care to fact check. was that '10 or 11'?

and bran had a field day against the magic because they didn't have to stop him, they had to stop his team, same with wade. the problem with going against kobe and the lakers was that you couldn't stop either considering kobe's unstoppable offensive arsenal and the triangle offense cannot be easily stopped or defended by normal means.

also you're off base by saying "significantly less help" they both had an all-star teammate between them.

it's hard to insert a ball-dominate player like bran into the lakers and say it'll work. way too many variables that you're not caring to consider. wade is an infinitely better off-the-ball player than bran is and we're talking about bran before he found his jumpshot (he technically still hasn't now).

it's just ironic how you are assuming they will win against the same teams they lost against because they have pau gasol. but the melo-led nuggets were a top 10 defensive team and the nash-led suns were a historically great offensive team.

[TheMarkMadsen]

It's not scoffing at them completely.

But I find you funny..you bring them up sweeping the Spurs...yet you used to claim how the Spurs were no good in 2010 in order to degrade Dirk and the Mavs in 10 and claim it was an upset.

Also, that same Suns team needed 6 to beat the Blazers and was really weak defensively.

It wasn't just Kobe...everyone on the Lakers played really well.

It doesn't have to just go 7 though...the Suns have to beat them. And I just don't see how they beat a healthy Wade or Lebron in a hypothetical like this.

Anything is of course possible, but we just saw Wade destroy the 10 Celtics. We know what Lebron does to weaker defenses...

Just don't see how that is enough to warrant a win in 6...to losing the series.

How did he destroy the Celtics when he was bounced in 5 games.

Wade bounced in 5 games = dominated the Cletics

Kobe loses in 7 = chokes against PHO, belittles his season

ok Dmavs, ok

[Ca$H]

LOL. Bran would win zero. Bosh is pretty much a better version of Gasol and he is Bran's third option.

[DMAVS41]

I purposely brought that up because you hype up that Spurs team to claim it wasn't an upset they beat the Mavs

It wasn't. I'm not saying the Suns sucked or something. I just said the 10 series wasn't this big upset Mavs vs Spurs...which it wasn't.

How the Spurs played or matched up with the Suns is not relevant to that discussion.

But you are stuck on this one.

Lebron vs a better defense than the Suns in 2010

32/9/8 67% TS

Kobe vs Suns...

34/8/7 64% TS

Yet we should conclude that Lebron couldn't match Kobe or perform just a little worse and still win?

[chazzy]

I was assuming health for Wade.

He's been hurt virtually every year since 06, and given that we're considering a finals run here it has to be considered at least.


With Lebron...I don't think it matters. Despite that...he was still as good was against the exact same team...just with far less help and infinitely worse coaching.
But if he has that "injury" that forces him to play as poorly as he did for 3 consecutive games, wasting away his great play that got them a 2-1 lead, then does it matter? Does he get that "injury" in the 2nd round in this hypothetical and does it linger for the rest of the playoffs? Or is it only happening against the Cs?

It wasn't. I'm not saying the Suns sucked or something. I just said the 10 series wasn't this big upset Mavs vs Spurs...which it wasn't.

How the Spurs played or matched up with the Suns is not relevant to that discussion.

But you are stuck on this one.

Lebron vs a better defense than the Suns in 2010

32/9/8 67% TS

Kobe vs Suns...

34/8/7 64% TS

Yet we should conclude that Lebron couldn't match Kobe or perform just a little worse and still win?
When did I say anything about Lebron and the Suns, or that he couldn't beat them? I just thought you were dismissing them as not good competition when you said "losing to the 2010 Suns? LOL..."

[DMAVS41]

How did he destroy the Celtics when he was bounced in 5 games.

Wade bounced in 5 games = dominated the Cletics

Kobe loses in 7 = chokes against PHO, belittles his season

ok Dmavs, ok

What?

The 06 series isn't even relevant here, but it's not my fault Kobe did not dominate the Suns in 06 and not my fault he quit on his team in a game 7.

Just the facts.

If he had played as good as Wade did against the Celtics in 10...the Lakers would have won.

[DMAVS41]

He's been hurt virtually every year since 06, and given that we're considering a finals run here it has to be considered at least.

But if he has that "injury" that forces him to play as poorly as he did for 3 consecutive games, wasting away his great play that got them a 2-1 lead, then does it matter? Does he get that "injury" in the 2nd round in this hypothetical and does it linger for the rest of the playoffs? Or is it only happening against the Cs?

I don't see the point about the Wade injury. If he's hurt...then obviously they aren't winning. So what is the point of even debating it then?

Same with Lebron...obviously if Lebron is just hurt...they aren't winning. I didn't see anything in Lebron, despite not playing well, that was a severely limiting injury.

I think having a far better team and coach still gets them through any series they play.

As for the Suns stuff. I already told you I'm not dismissing them completely. I've repeated in this thread that obviously we would never know.

I just think in a hypothetical like this you are on very shaky ground assuming 2010 Wade and Lebron aren't getting by the 10 Suns. And while Kobe was great, the Suns were a very poor defensive team and I just don't see those guys having a problem with shredding them to the tune of 30 to 35 points a night.

[Dresta]

They're also not taking into account how the triangle offense, by nature, diminishes their strengths. LeBron and Wade are absurdly ball-dominant players and their effectiveness instantly declines the second they have to play off the ball. That "pound the rock for 20 seconds then kick it to an open shooter" stuff doesn't fly in the Phil's triangle.

Trying to imagine Wade and LeBron playing the high post :roll: . Two guys with no post-up games to speak of. Teams would laugh and stay with the shooters and bigs.
Wrong again about Wade. Wade has had a great post game for years and is also a fantastic off the ball player. He led team USA in scoring playing mostly off the ball. He dominated the ball a lot in 08-10 because his teams were shit. He's always had great chemistry with whoever he's played with, and has been great at adapting his style of play to suit his teammates. Your assertion he wouldn't manage to adjust his game to fit with one of the greatest coaches of all time is laughable. Same for Lebron (though he actually does pound the ball far more than is necessary, he makes up for it in other ways).


How did he destroy the Celtics when he was bounced in 5 games.

Wade bounced in 5 games = dominated the Cletics

Kobe loses in 7 = chokes against PHO, belittles his season

ok Dmavs, ok
Kobe's numbers were significantly inferior to Wade's despite Boston being a better defensive team than the Suns. Also, Wade didn't give up on his team a la Kobe.

[Dresta]

He's been hurt virtually every year since 06, and given that we're considering a finals run here it has to be considered at least.

He was healthy from 09-11, which i believe is the period we are talking about here. There's no point in making this comparison at all if people are just gonna go 'Wade would've got injured' bla bla bla...

[TheMarkMadsen]

What?

The 06 series isn't even relevant here, but it's not my fault Kobe did not dominate the Suns in 06 and not my fault he quit on his team in a game 7.

Just the facts.

If he had played as good as Wade did against the Celtics in 10...the Lakers would have won.

:roll:

So let me get this straight

Wade played so well that he led his team to..a single win..

Kobe led his team to 3 wins..

Wade "dominated" his opponent

:facepalm

[chazzy]

So what is the point of even debating it then?

Because they both got hurt in both of the years. It's what actually happened so it should be considered. You can argue that because of the Lakers' better support, they could win despite the injuries.. but Wade's happened in the first round and Lebron's happened in the 2nd. Quite a task considering the way Lebron especially was affected by it.
I didn't see anything in Lebron, despite not playing well, that was a severely limiting injury.

he was clearly hurting from the elbow thing. pretending like the guy was not hampered by an injury is a joke.

If it was his elbow that made an all time great player drop down to a horrific 46.8 TS% and 6+ TOs over 3 games, then it was severely limiting. If it wasn't his elbow, then maybe we have to file this with his 2011 season.

[Dresta]

:roll:

So let me get this straight

Wade played so well that he led his team to..a single win..

Kobe led his team to 3 wins..

Wade "dominated" his opponent

:facepalm
That might have something to do with Kobe having a teammate who averaged 19/11/5 on 50% - Wade had nothing close to that level of help.

Jesus, you're such a moron :facepalm

[Andrei89]

All I got from this thread is how overrated Kobe Bryant is in here.

[DMAVS41]

Because they both got hurt in both of the years. It's what actually happened so it should be considered. You can argue that because of the Lakers' better support, they could win despite the injuries.. but Wade's happened in the first round and Lebron's happened in the 2nd. Quite a task considering the way Lebron especially was affected by it.
If it was his elbow that made an all time great player drop down to a horrific 46.8 TS% and 6+ TOs over 3 games, then it was severely limiting. If it wasn't his elbow, then maybe we have to file this with his 2011 season.

Again...I don't follow. Why debate something that has a clear "no" answer?

I'm agreeing with you here. If Wade was hurt bad enough to truly hamper his play in 09...he's not winning.


Even with Lebron playing like he did in those 3 games, again, misleading because his game 5 drops that tremendously....I think they still win that series.

Not sure why they old bump...my opinion hasn't changed. He was obviously impacted by it, but not enough to think he couldn't have won a series against that team with more help and better coaching.

Obviously he was able to bounce back after game 5 and go for 27/20/10 iirc. I know you will call "empty", like you did at the time, but that is still better than Kobe's meltdown in game 7

Not like Kobe didn't have stinkers in that series as well...and again...really hard to quantify how much help it is to have a GOAT level coach and more help vs the shit fest Lebron was dealing with.

Kobe had a 2 game stretch in the 10 finals of;

25/6/5 46% TS...3 turnovers a game

Meh...just happens in the course of a tough series. So not only did Kobe have those back to back stinkers on your criteria...he had the all timer game 7...given that Kobe played like ass, again...on your criteria, in 3 of 7 games....so no reason why Lebron still wouldn't win.

You average those 3 games together for Kobe and you get something like 42% TS. So for three of 7 games...Kobe was around 42% TS...ouch

So how do you grade Kobe on that? You said Lebron's 46.8% TS was horrific. How do you grade Kobe's 42% TS (honestly don't know what it is exactly over those 3 games, but it's around that I think)...while playing with way more help?

What word do you use to describe worse than horrific?

[Andrei89]

That might have something to do with Kobe having a teammate who averaged 19/11/5 on 50% - Wade had nothing close to that level of help.

Jesus, you're such a moron :facepalm


Indeed, guy cant put up a single argument that is , at least, semi-decent. All he does is spew shit.

Wade played with Michael BEasley as his 2nd option for crying out loud :oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

That might have something to do with Kobe having a teammate who averaged 19/11/5 on 50% - Wade had nothing close to that level of help.

Jesus, you're such a moron :facepalm

aren't you the guy that just tried to tell me the 06 HEAT didn't have any 3 point shooters? :lol

way to not respond to that

Back to the topic since when is success determined by the box score and not in the W/L column?

Saying Wade dominated the 10 Celtics is absolutly asinine. Anybody who watched that series saw that Wade was playing right into the Celtics game plan

[Andrei89]

aren't you the guy that just tried to tell me the 06 HEAT didn't have any 3 point shooters? :lol

way to not respond to that

Back to the topic since when is success determined by the box score and not in the W/L column?

Saying Wade dominated the 10 Celtics is absolutly asinine. Anybody who watched that series saw that Wade was playing right into the Celtics game plan

Is this guy for real?:lol

Are you really serious with that comment? I took a dump this morning after 2 days and it was not as big as the shit coming out of your mouth today.

:applause: :applause:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Perhaps that argument could be used for Bron, but not Wade, who won a title with such brilliant shooters as Shaq, Haslem, Walker and J-Will in the starting line-up.

Having a clogged paint didn't seem to bother his game one bit.


:biggums:

Walker and J Will combined for ten 3 point attempts per game and both shot at about 36% from 3

Posey was taking four 3's per game as well, hitting 40% in the regular season and 42% from 3 in the post season while taking 4 per game

There were only 2 players on the 09 Lakers who took more than three 3 point attempts per game, Fisher & Kobe..

and once the playoff began, Ariza stepped up his 3pt shooting, which was a life saver considering Fisher was still taking three 3 pointers per game..on 28%


...

[zoom17]

All I got from this thread is how overrated Kobe Bryant is in here.

:applause:

[Ronaldinho]

It's funny when ppl say "I don't see Lebron losing with that Lakers". Who the **** would imagine Lebron would have one of the worst finals ever in 11?

I think Lebron (assuming the Lakers would play lebron ball) would take the Lakers to the finals in 09 and 10, not in 08. I dont know if he wins, he might collapse in the finals again.

Wade, on the other hand, i dont think win in any of these years.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You replace Bean with Wade from 2009 onward and you'd have the same results. Maybe one more chip..

Lebron is a different animal.. He's been the best player in the league as of 2009. Not all that far fetched to say, dude would be sitting on FOUR titles right now.. (FIVE max obviously).

[ThePhantomCreep]

Is this guy for real?:lol

Are you really serious with that comment? I took a dump this morning after 2 days and it was not as big as the shit coming out of your mouth today.

:applause: :applause:
Are you going to add something of value to this thread, or what? All we're getting is fanboy BS from you.

[secund2nun]

It's funny when ppl say "I don't see Lebron losing with that Lakers". Who the **** would imagine Lebron would have one of the worst finals ever in 11?

I think Lebron (assuming the Lakers would play lebron ball) would take the Lakers to the finals in 09 and 10, not in 08. I dont know if he wins, he might collapse in the finals again.

Wade, on the other hand, i dont think win in any of these years.

Lebron's 2011 finals were not even close to worst ever. Kobe has had a couple that were much worse like 08 and 04. Lebron's 2011 finals is called worst ever simply because people know what he is capable of doing and compared his 17-7-7 46% output vs Dallas against what they know he can do like when he went 38-8-8 vs Orlando in 2009.

Also in 2011 you have to factor in that Miami had no chemistry, it was their first year together, had no bench and had garbage at center and PG, Wade and Lebron don't naturally fit well together which further makes the lack of chemistry even a bigger issue, and Spo is a garbage coach. Miami and Lebron in 2012 and 2013 were much better. Most first year teams don't have any business making the finals.

LA beat a good Boston team when Kobe went 6/24. Kobe shot like 40% in the 2010 finals. Gasol was more impressive in both the 09 and 10 finals than Kobe. Kobe stunk it up in game 7 vs Houston in 2009 while Gasol exploded and led them to victory Enough said.

Lebron on LA would have easily 3 peated and then some. Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Lebron/Artest and Phil Jackson would have been a sick team.

Lebron is simply worlds better than Kobe ever was.

[Andrei89]

Lebron's 2011 finals were not even close to worst ever. Kobe has had a couple that were much worse like 08 and 04. Lebron's 2011 finals is called worst ever simply because people know what he is capable of doing and compared his 17-7-7 46% output vs Dallas against what they know he can do like when he went 38-8-8 vs Orlando in 2009.

Also in 2011 you have to factor in that Miami had no chemistry, it was their first year together, had no bench and had garbage at center and PG, Wade and Lebron don't naturally fit well together which further makes the lack of chemistry even a bigger issue, and Spo is a garbage coach. Miami and Lebron in 2012 and 2013 were much better. Most first year teams don't have any business making the finals.

LA beat a good Boston team when Kobe went 6/24. Kobe shot like 40% in the 2010 finals. Gasol was more impressive in both the 09 and 10 finals than Kobe. Kobe stunk it up in game 7 vs Houston in 2009 while Gasol exploded and led them to victory Enough said.

Lebron on LA would have easily 3 peated and then some. Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Lebron/Artest and Phil Jackson would have been a sick team.

Lebron is simply worlds better than Kobe ever was.

This guy is dropping some very good knowledge in here.

[Andrei89]

Are you going to add something of value to this thread, or what? All we're getting is fanboy BS from you.


I added already, in the OP.

[Ronaldinho]

Lebron's 2011 finals were not even close to worst ever. Kobe has had a couple that were much worse like 08 and 04. Lebron's 2011 finals is called worst ever simply because people know what he is capable of doing and compared his 17-7-7 46% output vs Dallas against what they know he can do like when he went 38-8-8 vs Orlando in 2009.

Also in 2011 you have to factor in that Miami had no chemistry, it was their first year together, had no bench and had garbage at center and PG, Wade and Lebron don't naturally fit well together which further makes the lack of chemistry even a bigger issue, and Spo is a garbage coach. Miami and Lebron in 2012 and 2013 were much better. Most first year teams don't have any business making the finals.

LA beat a good Boston team when Kobe went 6/24. Kobe shot like 40% in the 2010 finals. Gasol was more impressive in both the 09 and 10 finals than Kobe. Kobe stunk it up in game 7 vs Houston in 2009 while Gasol exploded and led them to victory Enough said.

Lebron on LA would have easily 3 peated and then some. Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Lebron/Artest and Phil Jackson would have been a sick team.

Lebron is simply worlds better than Kobe ever was.
Did you honestly watched or just watched the boxcore? Lebron noshow 4qtr was one of the worst perfomance evers, wtf?

And Gasol, Bynum (7/5), Odom, Artest, Lebron would be a hell of a team. No one can make a jumpshot to save their life.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Wrong again about Wade. Wade has had a great post game for years and is also a fantastic off the ball player. He led team USA in scoring playing mostly off the ball. He dominated the ball a lot in 08-10 because his teams were shit. He's always had great chemistry with whoever he's played with, and has been great at adapting his style of play to suit his teammates. Your assertion he wouldn't manage to adjust his game to fit with one of the greatest coaches of all time is laughable. Same for Lebron (though he actually does pound the ball far more than is necessary, he makes up for it in other ways).


Kobe's numbers were significantly inferior to Wade's despite Boston being a better defensive team than the Suns. Also, Wade didn't give up on his team a la Kobe.

"Great post up game" is a big stretch. Kobe has a great post-up game. That's who you save that praise for.

Playing off the ball on a team full of elite talent isn't difficult either. Let's try an NBA setting. In the Triangle offense. Notice how Wade declines when LeBron goes into tedious rock-pounding mode--he needs the ball in his hands constantly to be effective. He had an absurd usage rate in 2009 and 2010, and that doesn't even take into account his ball-dominance (which can border on LeBron-esque at times). His game isn't tailored for the Triangle offense at all.

[secund2nun]

Did you honestly watched or just watched the boxcore? Lebron noshow 4qtr was one of the worst perfomance evers, wtf?

And Gasol, Bynum (7/5), Odom, Artest, Lebron would be a hell of a team. No one can make a jumpshot to save their life.

I watched the games. You think Lebron was bad in 2011?

Imagine if Lebron shot a million times per game and missed most of them, thus prevented Wade, who was hot, for getting shots and scoring....that's Kobe for you in the 2004 finals when he shot a billion shots per game (and missed most of them) and kept the shots from going to Shaq where they should have....and they had Phil Jackson as coach and years and years of chemistry together unlike first year Miami. That is way worse. To deny that shows either bias toward Kobe or bias against Lebron.

[DMAVS41]

Chazzy

I'm not saying they both win for sure.

And I completely agree that if Wade wasn't healthy...they aren't winning in 09.

And I wasn't completely scoffing at the Suns...I just don't think an all offense no defense team like the Suns is going to beat Kobe/Lebron/Wade led teams with better help and coaching in a 7 game series very often.


I also think you are just flat out unfair to Lebron in 2010. You called his 3 game stretch to end the series horrific. Which is fine, but then I'd like to know what Kobe's was? You would have to admit Lebron had far worse help and coaching...so you'd have to factor that into your thinking process as well.

But anyway...here is that 3 game stretch for Lebron and Kobe against the Celtics;

46.8% TS 6 turnovers per game for Lebron

43% TS (I bumped it to 43% TS...I honestly don't know...i can't do the math in my head but I think it's about that.) and 3 turnovers per game

You called Lebron's play horrific. I'm curious why Kobe's wouldn't be horrific or worse.

Again, especially as Kobe just had objectively more help...

[Dresta]

aren't you the guy that just tried to tell me the 06 HEAT didn't have any 3 point shooters? :lol

way to not respond to that

Back to the topic since when is success determined by the box score and not in the W/L column?

Saying Wade dominated the 10 Celtics is absolutly asinine. Anybody who watched that series saw that Wade was playing right into the Celtics game plan
Nope. Never said that; learn to read, it might help. I simply said Wade has shown he excels without good floor spacing, which he didn't have.

Look, lets compare Kobe's 3 point shooters to Wade's:

Kobe 09 playoffs: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2009.html#playoffs_totals::none

Ariza - 40 of 84 (48%), Odom - 18 of 35 (51%), Fisher 19 of 67 (28%), Brown 12-25 (48%), Vujacic 16 of 51 (31%)

Kobe 10 playoffs: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html#playoffs_totals::none

Wade 06 playoffs: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2006.html#playoffs_totals::none

Walker - 48 of 148 (32%), Williams 26 of 95 (27%), Posey 35 of 83 (42%), Payton 17 of 58 (29%)

Pretty similar really, except Antoine was chucking like hell as per. Wade also had Shaq and Haslem in the paint. So to say he needs great floor spacing to succeed is ****ing idiotic.

Now shut up and stop talking rubbish.

[aboss4real24]

melo wins 3 rings wit that laker squad

[BlackVVaves]

It's funny when ppl say "I don't see Lebron losing with that Lakers". Who the **** would imagine Lebron would have one of the worst finals ever in 11?

I think Lebron (assuming the Lakers would play lebron ball) would take the Lakers to the finals in 09 and 10, not in 08. I dont know if he wins, he might collapse in the finals again.

Wade, on the other hand, i dont think win in any of these years.

That's actually a good point that no one has pondered amidst their squabbling.

Its all hypothetical, but one can't be crucified for doubting Bron would beat say the 2010 Celtics after seeing what he did with a much a better team in Miami against a worse opponent in the Mavs.

So anyone saying its a given that he'd have two rings undoubtedly is drinking the kool-aid.

I say, Bron wins in 09, and so would Wade. 2010, I'm not sure if either player pulls off a win. It's certainly debatable.

Rose and Melo? Lol. Maybe Melo in 09, but seeing as how the Lakers don't reach the Finals in the first place without that needed defense at the 3 spot, I doubt it.

Also, Lol at anyone who thinks Bron or Wade wouldn't thrash that 2010 Suns defense. Great offensive team, but couldn't defend for shit. And Kobe capitalized, as any All Time great would have. But, I'd expect similar production and results from other perimeter titans in Bron and Wade.

Aside from that, this thread is :facepalm Half the crowd overrating Kobe, the other half overrating his supporting cast. If a 9/7 Bynum playing 50% of the games he did suit up for qualifies as a notable factor, then we have to reassess the analysis of star's supporting casts in the past. If we are to attribute distinct significance to Bynum's role in that playoff run, then revaluations are definitely in order.

I saw Bynum as a defensive and unreliable role player that season, and for most of his tenure with the Lakers outside of 2008 and 2012.

[red1]

Lets be real guys. Prime Lebron would win those teams. Prime Dwade would win with those teams. Melo might win I dont know. Rose probably not.

[BlackVVaves]

Lets be real guys. Prime Lebron would win those teams. Prime Dwade would win with those teams. Melo might win I dont know. Rose probably not.

Why should we automatically assume Bron would win in 2010 though? We did the following year and he lost. And unless you're going to tell me the Lakers were a better team than the Heat, or the Mavs were a better team than the Celtics, I don't see how it's a foregone conclusion that he wins.

I'm more compelled to say Wade would win in 2010 than LeBron would.

[red1]

Why should we automatically assume Bron would win in 2010 though? We did the the following year and he lost. And unless you're going to tell me the Lakers were a better team than the Heat, or the Mavs were a better team than the Celtics, I don't see how it's a foregone conclusion that he wins.

I'm more compelled to say Wade would win in 2010 than LeBron would.
Lets be real man. Lebron with that laker team is too much for the celtics or suns.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Nope. Never said that; learn to read, it might help. I simply said Wade has shown he excels without good floor spacing, which he didn't have.

Look, lets compare Kobe's 3 point shooters to Wade's:

Kobe 09 playoffs: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2009.html#playoffs_totals::none

Ariza - 40 of 84 (48%), Odom - 18 of 35 (51%), Fisher 19 of 67 (28%), Brown 12-25 (48%), Vujacic 16 of 51 (31%)

Kobe 10 playoffs: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html#playoffs_totals::none

Wade 06 playoffs: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2006.html#playoffs_totals::none

Walker - 48 of 148 (32%), Williams 26 of 95 (27%), Posey 35 of 83 (42%), Payton 17 of 58 (29%)

Pretty similar really, except Antoine was chucking like hell as per. Wade also had Shaq and Haslem in the paint. So to say he needs great floor spacing to succeed is ****ing idiotic.

Now shut up and stop talking rubbish.

Why do you keep saying he didn't have good floor spacing in 06 :roll:

i already ether'd that point, he had multiple teammates shooting three to four 3 point attempts per game on good percentages


Yeah let's compare Kobe's 3pt shooters to Wades, please lets do.

Atoine Walker shooting six 3's per game on 32%

James Posey shooting four 3's per game on 42%

Jason Williams shooting four 3's per game on 27% (shot 37% in the reg season, couldn't slag off b/c he was a threat)

Gary Payton took five shots per game in the playoffs, three out of those five shots every game were 3 pointers..

So Wade's top 4 shooters are taking seventeen 3 point attempts per game..

Wade's teammates shot 402 three pointers in the playoffs.. Wade had 2 teammates shoot 95+ threes..

now lets look at Kobe's 3pt shooters


Kobe had four teammates that shot two or more 3pt attempts per game..

Kobe's teammates shot 318 three pointers in the playoffs..

[Calabis]

Kobe Bryant teammates in 09-10 playoff run

Take away Kobe and his team put up 74.7 pts a game throughout the playoffs.

From his starters and sixth (Gasol, Bynum, Peace, Odom and Fisher) Kobe got a avg of

Avg per player: 12.52 ppg, 7.1 reb, 2.64 ast, 47.1% FG, 54.4 TS%

Avg per game: 62.6 ppg, 35.5 reb, 13.2 ast (fg and ts% same)

Lebron teammates in the 09-10 playoff run

Take away Lebron and his team put up 62.4 pts a game throughout the playoffs

From his staters and sixth(Williams, Jamison, Parker, Oneal and Varejao) Lebron got a avg of

Avg per player: 11.0 ppg, 4.98 reb, 2.0 ast, 44.9% FG, 55.4 TS%

Avg per game: 55.2 ppg, 24.9 reb, 10 ast (fg and ts% same)




One thing that stands out to me, is Kobestans are stating that Kobe had a tougher rode throughout the playoffs, while Lebron played in he weak east. If that is the case, this really shows how good Kobe's teammates were and how bad Lebron's were.

Kobe's teammates in the "tough" west(as Kobestans say) produced more points per game, the main cogs produced more points by themselves than Lebrons entire team did. Lebrons teammates produced less in the "weak" east(as Kobestans say) they must have been really bad.


I think its safe to say, that Lebron could have won a chip with Kobe's teammates giving the same production.

[BlackVVaves]

Lets be real man. Lebron with that laker team is too much for the celtics or suns.

So...LeBron with even more star talent wasn't enough for the....Mavs?

Umm....lol?

And as I already stated, I am not disputing Bron would get pass the Suns, and anyone that is needs to take their face out of Kobe's rectum.

[DMAVS41]

That's actually a good point that no one has pondered amidst their squabbling.

Its all hypothetical, but one can't be crucified for doubting Bron would beat say the 2010 Celtics after seeing what he did with a much a better team in Miami against a worse opponent in the Mavs.

So anyone saying its a given that he'd have two rings undoubtedly is drinking the kool-aid.

I say, Bron wins in 09, and so would Wade. 2010, I'm not sure if either player pulls off a win. It's certainly debatable.

Rose and Melo? Lol. Maybe Melo in 09, but seeing as how the Lakers don't reach the Finals in the first place without that needed defense at the 3 spot, I doubt it.

Also, Lol at anyone who thinks Bron or Wade wouldn't thrash that 2010 Suns defense. Great offensive team, but couldn't defend for shit. And Kobe capitalized, as any All Time great would have. But, I'd expect similar production and results from other perimeter titans in Bron and Wade.

Aside from that, this thread is :facepalm Half the crowd overrating Kobe, the other half overrating his supporting cast. If a 9/7 Bynum playing 50% of the games he did suit up for qualifies as a notable factor, then we have to reassess the analysis of star's supporting casts in the past. If we are to attribute distinct significance to Bynum's role in that playoff run, then revaluations are definitely in order.

I saw Bynum as a defensive and unreliable role player that season, and for most of his tenure with the Lakers outside of 2008 and 2012.


But we did do that.

I declared at the very beginning that of course Lebron doesn't win if he goes 2011 finals. I don't see the point of debating things like that or Wade's health....of course they aren't winning if Wade is hurt or Lebron plays like complete shit.

The answer then is a big "no"

But I don't find that interesting...just like I wouldn't find it interesting to talk about Kobe replacing Wade or Lebron some years...and then having someone say...what if Kobe plays in the finals like he did in 00 or 04...what if he quits on his team like he did in the Suns series...what if he refuses to play team ball...etc. Then of course they aren't winning...it's obvious.

[secund2nun]

So...LeBron with even more star talent wasn't enough for the....Mavs?

Umm....lol?

And as I already stated, I am not disputing Bron would get pass the Suns, and anyone that is needs to take their face out of Kobe's rectum.

So Miami being in the first year together with no chemistry, naturally poor fit between Wade and Lebron, Spo as coach compared to Phil as coach means nothing? Yes let's just disregard the facts.

LA won those titles with Paul out performing Mr. 6/24 40% Kobe :oldlol:

[ThePhantomCreep]

I watched the games. You think Lebron was bad in 2011?

Imagine if Lebron shot a million times per game and missed most of them, thus prevented Wade, who was hot, for getting shots and scoring....that's Kobe for you in the 2004 finals when he shot a billion shots per game (and missed most of them) and kept the shots from going to Shaq where they should have....and they had Phil Jackson as coach and years and years of chemistry together unlike first year Miami. That is way worse. To deny that shows either bias toward Kobe or bias against Lebron.

Kobe FGAs (2004 Finals): 22.6
Kobe FGAs (2004 postseason): 20.9

Omgz what a ginormous difference. Truth is, Kobe's shot attempts in that series were in line with the whole of the 2004 playoffs, he just wasn't making them. The increase could easily be attributed to Malone's injury, which rendered him ineffective in the Finals. Shaq's shot attempts also increased in that series and it would have been easier to milk him for more attempts had not shot an atrocious 49% from the line.

There were several factors that contributed to LA's loss that year, Kobe's poor shooting was but one of them. In contrast, the Heat dropped several close games due to their star player's insistence on letting players like Udonis Haslem get more shots and points than himself in 4th quarters. LeBron's performance in 2011 is an insult to chokers. At least a choker tries.

[aboss4real24]

Im not a kobe fan , far frum it

but the kobe hate on this site is thru the roof

dude is the 2nd best sg ever

[red1]

So...LeBron with even more star talent wasn't enough for the....Mavs?

Umm....lol?

And as I already stated, I am not disputing Bron would get pass the Suns, and anyone that is needs to take their face out of Kobe's rectum.
We all know how ball dominant lebron is. 2011 was their first year playing together and for the first time in his career he had to share with another ball dominant player and it took him out of his rythm. The next two years against similar competition the heat coaching strategy was to let him dominate the ball again and it resulted in two straight chips. Who on the lakers will take the ball out of his hands?

[ThePhantomCreep]

Lets be real man. Lebron with that laker team is too much for the celtics or suns.

Let's be real man. Your replies are pitiful.

[BlackVVaves]

"LeBron with that Laker team..."

Shit. Y'all must consider the 2011-2013 Heat gods amongst men then. Didn't the Heat win 27 straight games last year?

Lol. All I'm saying is, I'm not sure how any of you can assume Bron would beat a better team with a worse collection of talent in the Finals the year directly before his 2011 debacle.

We aren't comparing a focused 2012 or seasoned 2013 Bron. We are saying the 2010 Bron, which in general was the same exact player skill wise as the 2011 LeBron, would beat the Celtics without a sliver of a doubt.

And I just don't see how that's a foregone conclusion. Did any of you expect him to lose in 2011? No. Soo....

[ThePhantomCreep]

So Miami being in the first year together with no chemistry, naturally poor fit between Wade and Lebron, Spo as coach compared to Phil as coach means nothing? Yes let's just disregard the facts.

LA won those titles with Paul out performing Mr. 6/24 40% Kobe :oldlol:

:roll: @ the excuses. Miami won 59 games (more than they'll win this year) and had HCA in the Finals. They were fine, and heavy favorites to win it all when the series started.

Say what you want about Kobe's game 7, he led the Lakers in scoring in the 4th quarter, played great D, and grabbed numerous key rebounds. He showed up to that 4th quarter and scored nearly as many points as a 2011 LeBron did in the 4th quarters of games 1-5 combined.

[Dresta]

Why do you keep saying he didn't have good floor spacing in 06 :roll:

i already ether'd that point, he had multiple teammates shooting three to four 3 point attempts per game on good percentages


Yeah let's compare Kobe's 3pt shooters to Wades, please lets do.

Atoine Walker shooting six 3's per game on 32%

James Posey shooting four 3's per game on 42%

Jason Williams shooting four 3's per game on 27% (shot 37% in the reg season, couldn't slag off b/c he was a threat)

Gary Payton took five shots per game in the playoffs, three out of those five shots every game were 3 pointers..

So Wade's top 4 shooters are taking seventeen 3 point attempts per game..

Wade's teammates shot 402 three pointers in the playoffs.. Wade had 2 teammates shoot 95+ threes..

now lets look at Kobe's 3pt shooters


Kobe had four teammates that shot two or more 3pt attempts per game..

Kobe's teammates shot 318 three pointers in the playoffs..
Why are you blabbering about attempts when Kobe's teammates would of course be taking less 3's than Wade's (because Kobe was taking so many himself). You simply ignored all the numbers i put up that showed Kobe's teammates shot better from 3 than Wade's did. Stop ignoring the facts and plugging an agenda - it is boring.

It's like the stuff i posted up just bypassed your brain so you just repeated your earlier post while completely ignoring what i proved (Kobe's shooters at least as good as Wade's). You are a ****ing idiot with zero comprehension and i cba discussing anything further with such an outright imbecile. Go away.

[BlackVVaves]

So Miami being in the first year together with no chemistry, naturally poor fit between Wade and Lebron, Spo as coach compared to Phil as coach means nothing? Yes let's just disregard the facts.

LA won those titles with Paul out performing Mr. 6/24 40% Kobe :oldlol:

Of course it means something, chemistry means a lot. Still doesn't account for two of the three best players in the league that year on the same team losing. But like I said, if you're certain without a doubt that LeBron would naturally and automatically beat those Celtics, then you are probably a LeBron stan/despise Kobe.

I didn't even think Kobe Gasol and Phil were going to beat the Celtics.

Again, I'm a objective observer here. I know you're have a history of hailing LeBron and diminishing Kobe's value, so I don't expect unbiased discussion to foster here. But for the objective enthusiasts out there, I'm curious to here your opinion.

[red1]

Let's be real man. Your replies are pitiful.
Lets be real shall we.

[chazzy]

Dmavs, my original point was this:

You can argue that because of the Lakers' better support, they could win despite the injuries.. but Wade's happened in the first round and Lebron's happened in the 2nd.
There was a stark difference in Lebron's play between the reg season+first 8 games of the playoffs and the last 3 games - the key point being that they were consecutive games and might have indicated a trend. If this were to happen in this hypothetical in the 2nd round, would he have continued to play like that for the rest of the playoffs and would the Lakers be good enough to overcome that? And if it wasn't an injury, is this a 2011 situation where we have to question whether he was capable of winning that year?

So Miami being in the first year together with no chemistry, naturally poor fit between Wade and Lebron

We all know how ball dominant lebron is. 2011 was their first year playing together and for the first time in his career he had to share with another ball dominant player and it took him out of his rythm.
This is revisionist. They played just fine after the first 15 games or so of the regular season, looking dominant and cohesive throughout the year. 3rd best offense in the league.

[BlackVVaves]

We all know how ball dominant lebron is. 2011 was their first year playing together and for the first time in his career he had to share with another ball dominant player and it took him out of his rythm. The next two years against similar competition the heat coaching strategy was to let him dominate the ball again and it resulted in two straight chips. Who on the lakers will take the ball out of his hands?

Are we assuming then that Phil would abruptly divert from the only offensive philosophy he's ever implemented?

I don't think a Phil coached Lakers team with LeBron at the helm would submit to his ball dominant nature. I think it can be argued via Phil's track record that LeBron wouldn't have the ball in his hands as much, per the system.

Idk. I'm not arguing Kobe > LeBron, I think I've stated on enough occasions that I think LeBron is a better basketball player than Kobe. I'm just arguing the quick dismissal, like the 2010 Finals for LeBron would be a formality. We thought the same the following year, with a better team, against worst competition (in the Finals), and walked away deeply perturbed.

[BlackVVaves]

Dmavs, my original point was this:

There was a stark difference in Lebron's play between the reg season+first 8 games of the playoffs and the last 3 games - the key point being that they were consecutive games and might have indicated a trend. If this were to happen in this hypothetical in the 2nd round, would he have continued to play like that for the rest of the playoffs and would the Lakers be good enough to overcome that? And if it wasn't an injury, is this a 2011 situation where we have to question whether he was capable of winning that year?


This is revisionist. They played just fine after the first 15 games or so of the regular season, looking dominant and cohesive throughout the year. 3rd best offense in the league.

Yeah, I don't get that piece of the argument. Miami's offense looked fine the entire season and post-season until the Finals. All of a sudden it's, "hey they didn't know how to play together man."

I mean, their style, albeit fragmented, of basketball surpassed much better defenses in the earlier rounds, so I'm not sure how valid that reasoning is? I'd understand if they struggled together all year offensively but, they were pretty deadly together despite being incohesive in late game situations.

[secund2nun]

Kobe FGAs (2004 Finals): 22.6
Kobe FGAs (2004 postseason): 20.9

Omgz what a ginormous difference. Truth is, Kobe's shot attempts in that series were in line with the whole of the 2004 playoffs, he just wasn't making them. The increase could easily be attributed to Malone's injury, which rendered him ineffective in the Finals. Shaq's shot attempts also increased in that series and it would have been easier to milk him for more attempts had not shot an atrocious 49% from the line.

There were several factors that contributed to LA's loss that year, Kobe's poor shooting was but one of them. In contrast, the Heat dropped several close games due to their star player's insistence on letting players like Udonis Haslem get more shots and points than himself in 4th quarters. LeBron's performance in 2011 is an insult to chokers. At least a choker tries.

LOL

First of all Kobe shoots way too much to begin with. With a dominant force like Shaq he should have never been shooting that many times to begin with....and what does Kobe do in the finals? He decides to shoot MORE :roll:

Lebron's 2011 finals stats:

17.8 ppg 7.2 rpg 6.8 apg 4.0 top 48% fg 15 shots per game

Kobe's 2004 finals stats:

22.6 ppg 4.4 apg 2.8 rpg 3.6 top 38% fg 23 shots per game

Shaq's 2004 finals stats:

26.6 ppg 10.8 rpg 1.6 apg 2.8 top 63% fg 17 shots per game.



Lebron's 2011 performance looks like Boston 2012 game 6 vs Kobe's performance :roll:

Hmmm should Shaq who shot 63% and scored 27 ppg on 17 shots per game shoot more shots than Kobe who shot 38% and scored 23 ppg on 23 shots per game?

Not to mention the fact that LA had years of chemistry, a great coach, while Miami had no chemistry, no natural fit and a garbage coach AND Shaq was talking up all of the attention in the paint yet Kobe was still historically bad.

Kobe's 2004 finals performance was literally the worst I have seen by a so called "star" player.

[DMAVS41]

Dmavs, my original point was this:

There was a stark difference in Lebron's play between the reg season+first 8 games of the playoffs and the last 3 games - the key point being that they were consecutive games and might have indicated a trend. If this were to happen in this hypothetical in the 2nd round, would he have continued to play like that for the rest of the playoffs and would the Lakers be good enough to overcome that? And if it wasn't an injury, is this a 2011 situation where we have to question whether he was capable of winning that year?


This is revisionist. They played just fine after the first 15 games or so of the regular season, looking dominant and cohesive throughout the year. 3rd best offense in the league.


But I already said that we shouldn't assume a 2011 situation because then the answer is an obvious "no"...

So I still don't see the point in bringing that up.

Also, Lebron looked "fine" for the most part in game 6. You might not like how he played, but he rebounded nicely from his terrible game 5.

You are just way too hard on him. You aren't factoring in his terrible help and coaching...and obviously aren't factoring in Kobe's even worse play in 3 of 7 games.

I honestly don't think you realized just how bad Kobe was for those 3 games, again, on your criteria of "horrific" 46.8% TS....Kobe was just objectively worse.

What are we to assume? That Lebron plays worse with better help and coaching? That Kobe plays better with worse help and coaching?

Nah...in a hypothetical like this you give Lebron the win for that series....unless you think his injury was so bad that he couldn't still play well.

And iirc...you didn't even think he was actually hurt at all...right?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Do people honestly think, LeBron with LA's roster circa 2009-2010, with PJax's tutelage, DONT win TWO rings.. ?

AND dude wins at least ONE from 2011-2013..

[BlackVVaves]

LOL

First of all Kobe shoots way too much to begin with. With a dominant force like Shaq he should have never been shooting that many times to begin with....and what does Kobe do in the finals? He decides to shoot MORE :roll:

Lebron's 2011 finals stats:

17.8 ppg 7.2 rpg 6.8 apg 4.0 top 48% fg 15 shots per game

Kobe's 2004 finals stats:

22.6 ppg 4.4 apg 2.8 rpg 3.6 top 38% fg 23 shots per game

Shaq's 2004 finals stats:

26.6 ppg 10.8 rpg 1.6 apg 2.8 top 63% fg 17 shots per game.



Lebron's 2011 performance looks like Boston 2012 game 6 vs Kobe's performance :roll:

Hmmm should Shaq who shot 63% and scored 27 ppg on 17 shots per game shoot more shots than Kobe who shot 38% and scored 23 ppg on 23 shots per game?

Not to mention the fact that LA had years of chemistry, a great coach, while Miami had no chemistry, no natural fit and a garbage coach AND Shaq was talking up all of the attention in the paint yet Kobe was still historically bad.

Kobe's 2004 finals performance was literally the worst I have seen by a so called "star" player.

Yeah, as bad as Bron was, at least he kind of contributed in other areas throughout the series. Kobe was just simply ineffective.

That Pistons defense that year was All Time dominant, and it should be noted when evaluating Kobe's shortcomings in that Finals. But, ultimately, he should have just relied on Shaq vs Ben and hoped that match up 1 v 1 would have favored LA in that sooner or later Larry Brown would be forced to open up the court as he honed in on Shaq. Cause clearly, the Pistons decided they were not going to double Shaq frequently, and instead focused on shutting Kobe down on the perimeter.

Will say this though. At least Kobe went out swinging. He may have chucked away like an idiot, but at least he tried to do something to help his team win in their bleak moments. Bron shrunk, he was timid and literally disappeared in every crucial moment after Game 3.

One guy took dumb, ill-advised shots, the other just refused to shoot at all.

[ThePhantomCreep]

LOL

First of all Kobe shoots way too much to begin with. With a dominant force like Shaq he should have never been shooting that many times to begin with....and what does Kobe do in the finals? He decides to shoot MORE :roll:

Lebron's 2011 finals stats:

17.8 ppg 7.2 rpg 6.8 apg 4.0 top 48% fg 15 shots per game

Kobe's 2004 finals stats:

22.6 ppg 4.4 apg 2.8 rpg 3.6 top 38% fg 23 shots per game

Shaq's 2004 finals stats:

26.6 ppg 10.8 rpg 1.6 apg 2.8 top 63% fg 17 shots per game.



Lebron's 2011 performance looks like Boston 2012 game 6 vs Kobe's performance :roll:

Hmmm should Shaq who shot 63% and scored 27 ppg on 17 shots per game shoot more shots than Kobe who shot 38% and scored 23 ppg on 23 shots per game?

Not to mention the fact that LA had years of chemistry, a great coach, while Miami had no chemistry, no natural fit and a garbage coach AND Shaq was talking up all of the attention in the paint yet Kobe was still historically bad.

Kobe's 2004 finals performance was literally the worst I have seen by a so called "star" player.

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2icbfnm.jpg

Kobe had a terrible finals, but that series wasn't winnable anyway. Detroit had a historically great defense (they almost repeated on the strength of it) and the Lakers, after Malone's injury, didn't have enough weapons to neutralize it. Only two games were competitive.

Given the context, LeBron's performance was worse. He was in a bunch of winnable games against an inferior opponent, and he let Udonis Haslem outscore him when it mattered most. I can't believe the box score experts are arguing this one. I'd be embarrassed to post LeBron's stats for that series. Who cares what his FG% was?

[Calabis]

Do people honestly think, LeBron with LA's roster circa 2009-2010, with PJax's tutelage, DONT win TWO rings.. ?

AND dude wins at least ONE from 2011-2013..

Exactly

:confusedshrug:

[BlackVVaves]

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2icbfnm.jpg

Kobe had a terrible finals, but that series wasn't winnable anyway. Detroit had a historically great defense (they almost repeated on the strength of it) and the Lakers, after Malone's injury, didn't have enough weapons to neutralize it. Only two games were competitive.

Given the context, LeBron's performance was worse. He was in a bunch of winnable games against an inferior opponent, and he let Udonis Haslem outscore him when it mattered most. I can't believe the box score experts are arguing this one. If be embarrassed to post LeBron's stats for that series. Who cares what his FG% was?

Both were/are hideous stains on both players' legacies. I think it's asinine to presume that 2004 Finals wasn't winnable though. Even with a hobbled Malone and disinterested Payton, Kobe and Shaq had essentially conquered the NBA for most of the previous 4 seasons on their own. The Pistons were the greatest foe they faced in the Finals, but had Kobe produced as much as Shaq (now whether that was actually possible or not is where many arguments lay), the Lakers win that series.

So yeah, not winnable? Please.

[macpierce]

Lebron would win 1 or 2 rings max, wade maybe 1 but his body is already broken

:oldlol:

[secund2nun]

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2icbfnm.jpg

Kobe had a terrible finals, but that series wasn't winnable anyway. Detroit had a historically great defense (they almost repeated on the strength of it) and the Lakers, after Malone's injury, didn't have enough weapons to neutralize it. Only two games were competitive.

Given the context, LeBron's performance was worse. He was in a bunch of winnable games against an inferior opponent, and he let Udonis Haslem outscore him when it mattered most. I can't believe the box score experts are arguing this one. I'd be embarrassed to post LeBron's stats for that series. Who cares what his FG% was?

https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/1898132_601179313270279_1539749605_n.jpg

https://scontent-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/1654290_601177476603796_899007888_n.jpg

https://scontent-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/14846_601179176603626_720108111_n.jpg

http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/4f733a4f6bb3f7c85e00007f/nba-leaders-win-shares.jpg

Gasol= real 09, 10 finals MVP and the Lakers winshare leader

Lebron's performance was way better than Kobe's in both stats, context (head coach, 1st year, faced more coverage than Kobe did bc Kobe had Shaq) etc. Kobe's was way worse....denial is not good.

Bold= In other words I don't wanna speak facts. That was definitely winnable especially with Shaq going beast mode. If they fed Shaq the ball more they could have won, but nope Kobe was jealous that Shaq was 10 times the player he would ever be so he tried to be hero and cost his team the series by chucking up 23 shots per game and converting at 38% while Shaq only had 17 shots per game while converting at 63%. Shaq wrecked the Detriot front court...too bad Kobe wrecked the Laker's chances by keeping the ball out of Shaq's hands.

Detriot didn't stop Shaq, Kobe did.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Both were/are hideous stains on both players' legacies. I think it's asinine to presume that 2004 Finals wasn't winnable though. Even with a hobbled Malone and disinterested Payton, Kobe and Shaq had essentially conquered the NBA for most of the previous 4 seasons on their own. The Pistons were the greatest foe they faced in the Finals, but had Kobe produced as much as Shaq (now whether that was actually possible or not is where many arguments lay), the Lakers win that series.

So yeah, not winnable? Please.

That series was winnable with a healthy Malone. He was contributing 14/9 that postseason, but that production was essentially gone when the series began. Lol, hobbled. Dude average 5ppg in the Finals. He should not have been playing. Given that, even if Kobe plays at the level he did in the previous rounds they're not winning. Again, only two of the games were competitive.

This team, two years removed from their last title, clearly wasn't as good as the three-peat teams, so I miss the point in bringing up the history of Shaq/Kobe. Much more relevant is the fact that Detroit was a lot better than anyone gave them credit for going into that series. They came within a quarter of repeating as champions, after all. They were great.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Exactly

:confusedshrug:

You know me Calabis, I'm not exactly a Lebron "fan".. but that dont mean I'm gonna practice w/ logical fallacies.. :lol

Do posters realize a big reason his teams lost in 2009 and 2010, were because they were average to begin with? In his tenure with Cleveland, LeBron's best player was Mo Williams. His "best" coach was Mike Brown..

Wake the f*ck up people

[ThePhantomCreep]

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Gasol= real 09, 10 finals MVP and the Lakers winshare leader

Lebron's performance was way better than Kobe's in both stats, context (head coach, 1st year, faced more coverage than Kobe did bc Kobe had Shaq) etc. Kobe's was way worse....denial is not good.

Bold= In other words I don't wanna speak facts. That was definitely winnable especially with Shaq going beast mode. If they fed Shaq the ball more they could have won, but nope Kobe was jealous that Shaq was 10 times the player he would ever be so he tried to be hero and cost his team the series by chucking up 23 shots per game and converting at 38% while Shaq only had 17 shots per game while converting at 63%. Shaq wrecked the Detriot front court...too bad Kobe wrecked the Laker's chances by keeping the ball out of Shaq's hands.

Detriot didn't stop Shaq, Kobe did.lol @ your irrelevant statistics. I thought we were discussing the 2011 and 2004 Finals?

Your post is idiotic. The Pistons won going away in three of the five games, complete blowouts in Games 3 and 5, how is feeding the ball to Shaq more going to nullify that? When he took 20 shots in game 2 and the Lakers barely miraculously won? When he took 21 shots in Game 4 and the Lakers still lost?

"If they just would have fed the ball to Shaq on every play, the series would have turned out like the 2002 Finals. El-oh-el" -dumbass boxscore readers. The Lakers in 2004 lost because of a variety of factors. Kobe was one of the them. Whereas Miami lost simply because their Chosen One chose not to play in the 4th quarters of those games. Every game they lost was competitive well into the 4th quarter. Is this sinking in? Hello?

[secund2nun]

Yeah, as bad as Bron was, at least he kind of contributed in other areas throughout the series. Kobe was just simply ineffective.

That Pistons defense that year was All Time dominant, and it should be noted when evaluating Kobe's shortcomings in that Finals. But, ultimately, he should have just relied on Shaq vs Ben and hoped that match up 1 v 1 would have favored LA in that sooner or later Larry Brown would be forced to open up the court as he honed in on Shaq. Cause clearly, the Pistons decided they were not going to double Shaq frequently, and instead focused on shutting Kobe down on the perimeter.

Will say this though. At least Kobe went out swinging. He may have chucked away like an idiot, but at least he tried to do something to help his team win in their bleak moments. Bron shrunk, he was timid and literally disappeared in every crucial moment after Game 3.

One guy took dumb, ill-advised shots, the other just refused to shoot at all.

At least Lebron deferred to a hot teammate in Wade instead of taking shots out of his hand and like you said he contributed in other areas. Had Kobe differed to Shaq LA would have won or came close, but instead of disappearing he was a huge active negative and directly hurt the team by keeping the ball out of Shaq's hands, taking ill advised shots that he missed, and not contributing at all in any area of the game.

Also it is important to note that Miami had no chemistry, a poor coach who was badly out coached, and Wade/Lebron simply did not know how to play together at that point especially against the zone defense. It was year 1. This cannot be ignored.

It took Jordan and Pippen until year 4 to win a title.

[Ronaldinho]

Do people honestly think, LeBron with LA's roster circa 2009-2010, with PJax's tutelage, DONT win TWO rings.. ?

AND dude wins at least ONE from 2011-2013..

Explain to me why Lebron lost just one year after with one of the most stacked teams ever? He could win 9 and 10, sure? But wouldnt be a suprise if he chocked in one of the finals.

[secund2nun]

lol @ your irrelevant statistics. I thought we were discussing the 2011 and 2004 Finals?

Your post is idiotic. The Pistons won going away in three of the five games, complete blowouts in Games 3 and 5, how is feeding the ball to Shaq more going to nullify that? When he took 20 shots in game 2 and the Lakers barely miraculously won? When he took 21 shots in Game 4 and the Lakers still lost?

"If they just would have fed the ball to Shaq on every play, the series would have turned out like the 2002 Finals. El-oh-el" -dumbass boxscore readers. The Lakers in 2004 lost because of a variety of factors. Kobe was one of the them. Whereas Miami lost simply because their Chosen One chose not to play in the 4th quarters of those games. Every game they lost was competitive well into the 4th quarter. Is this sinking in? Hello?

The facts are idiotic now? :oldlol:

How was feeding the ball to Shaq gonna nullify it? Hello Shaq was completely dominating Detroit while Kobe was AWFUL yet Kobe took 6 more shots per game than Shaq

Kobe took 23 shots per game and Shaq took 17 shots per game. Kobe should have taken 12-13 shots per game and Shaq should have taken 25 shots per game.

More like dumbass empty volumer scorer lovers lol. Shaq was dominating Detriot 2002 style while Kobe was historically bad. You can't refute this so you just lollygag around it. He wasn't just non existent...he was much worse- a huge net negative.

Miami was in YEAR 1. All season and playoffs long Lebron and Wade took turns playing ISO ball. They were actually lucky to even beat Chicago as Lebron got hot from outside (while Wade sat and did nothing, but in the finals it was Wade's turn for action) and they escaped multiple games in a deceptively close series. It caught up to them in the finals when the Dallas zone defense exploited this. Despite this Lebron in 2011 easily outperformed Kobe in 2004.

[BlackVVaves]

At least Lebron deferred to a hot teammate in Wade instead of taking shots out of his hand and like you said he contributed in other areas. Had Kobe differed to Shaq LA would have won or came close, but instead of disappearing he was a huge active negative and directly hurt the team by keeping the ball out of Shaq's hands, taking ill advised shots that he missed, and not contributing at all in any area of the game.

Also it is important to note that Miami had no chemistry, a poor coach who was badly out coached, and Wade/Lebron simply did not know how to play together at that point especially against the zone defense. It was year 1. This cannot be ignored.

It took Jordan and Pippen until year 4 to win a title.

Their offense performed rather high throughout the regular and post-season though, did it not?

Outside of the closing moments of games, they typically dominated defenses no? We are talking Wade still within his peak, and Bron just entering his after all.

Agree that Kobe should have allowed the offense to flow through Shaq, see if Brown would change his defensive scheme. If he did, maybe Lakers win. If he doesn't, then Shaq would have averaged 40 a game, we would be chastising Kobe for disappearing in the series, and the Lakers would have still lost in 5 or 6.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Explain to me why Lebron lost just one year after with one of the most stacked teams ever? He could win 9 and 10, sure? But wouldnt be a suprise if he chocked in one of the finals.

My answer to that is THE same reason Kobe won a game 7 (finals) shooting 6-24..

Again, I get you guys dont "like" Lebron. I'm not a fan of his either.. but lets try to stay objective.

[TheMarkMadsen]

The facts are idiotic now? :oldlol:


Miami was in YEAR 1. All season and playoffs long Lebron and Wade took turns playing ISO ball. They were actually lucky to even beat Chicago as Lebron got hot from outside and they escaped multiple games in a deceptively close series. It caught up to them in the finals when the Dallas zone defense exploited this. Despite this Lebron in 2011 easily outperformed Kobe in 2004.

so your excuse for Lebron losing with miami in 2011 is because it was the teams first year together

but you think you can just throw Lebron onto a team with less talent and they'll definitely win in their first year?

:wtf:

[Andrei89]

Explain to me why Lebron lost just one year after with one of the most stacked teams ever? He could win 9 and 10, sure? But wouldnt be a suprise if he chocked in one of the finals.


Kobe choked as well and yet they still won. Enough said.

[TheMarkMadsen]

My answer to that is THE same reason Kobe won a game 7 (finals) shooting 6-24..

Again, I get you guys dont "like" Lebron. I'm not a fan of his either.. but lets try to stay objective.

stop being such a simpleton

This team wouldn't have been a good fit for Lebron, with a clogged paint and no real shooters there would have been problems

for somebody who is a Jordan fan, you should be able to see that with Lamar already on the team Lebron in the triangle wouldn't be ideal..

what's Lebron gonna do when he's Isoing in the high post while the defenders just sit back and dare him to shoot or kick it out to a a trio of wing players with an inconsistent outside shot

[Ronaldinho]

Kobe choked as well and yet they still won. Enough said.
Kobe was great in that Lakers run 29/6/5 .45, stop trolling. He had a bad game in the offensive end, but grabed 15 rebounds as a ****in SG and made 10 points in the 4th.

Dirk had similar stats in the finals 11

Dirk: 26/10/2 .415% (9/27 in game 6)
Kobe 29/8/4/2 .405% (6/24 in game 7)

Thats not the best finals ever, but definitly not chock.

Jordan, GOAT himself had 27/5/4/2 on .415, and 5/19 in the last game.

[secund2nun]

so your excuse for Lebron losing with miami in 2011 is because it was the teams first year together

but you think you can just throw Lebron onto a team with less talent and they'll definitely win in their first year?

:wtf:

Wade and Lebron are a terrible fit. They still are a bad fit, but they adjusted to make it work enough. Wade and Lebron were both wing players, ball dominant, and neither were great post scorers nor great shooters.

Lebron would fit very well with a front court like Gasol/Bynum/Odom. Naturally a wing player will fit better with a post player than a wing will fit with another wing player especially 2 ball dominant players with overlapping skillsets like Wade and Lebron. Lebron is basically just a bigger DWade.

Also Miami has a massive hole at center and as a result has pathetic post defense against centers, pathetic rebounding as well and no rim protection. Center is by far the most important position in bball. I'll take the LA cast over the Miami cast any day especially since you get Phil with LA and Spo with Miami. Lebron on LA would result in a much better team than Lebron on Miami even before you consider the HC difference.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

stop being such a simpleton

This team wouldn't have been a good fit for Lebron, with a clogged paint and no real shooters there would have been problems

You're a funny dude. In your narrow mind, Lebron's passing and 3PT shooting would be null and void because of a "clogged paint".. Comedy :oldlol:


for somebody who is a Jordan fan, you should be able to see that with Lamar already on the team Lebron in the triangle wouldn't be ideal

what's Lebron gonna do when he's Isoing in the high post while the defenders just sit back and dare him to shoot or kick it out to a a trio of wing players with an inconsistent outside shot

Lebron made it work with Wade, a ball dominant playmaker. Why wouldn't he be able to do that with...Lamar Odom?

We're not talking about Lebron in 2007 either. This notion that a PRIME Lebron James "can't shoot" is just bs hyperbole from the casual fan.

Forget that though.. Do you people think, Phil would have Lebron/Bynum/Pau playing together for significant minutes? That shit didn't even work with Kobe in the lineup!! :oldlol: All I heard from Lakers fans was that you couldn't have him and Pau playing together because Bynum either took away his touches or that dude was a "black hole"...

And shooting?
Fisher / Vujacic / Radmanovic (before he was traded) all shot ~35% - 40% from 3PT.. How exactly would Lebron not "make it work'.. ? :biggums:

[DMAVS41]

You know me Calabis, I'm not exactly a Lebron "fan".. but that dont mean I'm gonna practice w/ logical fallacies.. :lol

Do posters realize a big reason his teams lost in 2009 and 2010, were because they were average to begin with? In his tenure with Cleveland, LeBron's best player was Mo Williams. His "best" coach was Mike Brown..

Wake the f*ck up people

Right...and, even with that, we saw Lebron play better against the magic in 09 than Kobe did...and at least as good in 10 against the Celtics.

I do not understand this logic either....only on ISH is replacing mike brown with phil jackson and an average team with a great one...going to yield worse results

[chazzy]

It took Jordan and Pippen until year 4 to win a title.
What a terrible comparison

[secund2nun]

Their offense performed rather high throughout the regular and post-season though, did it not?

Outside of the closing moments of games, they typically dominated defenses no? We are talking Wade still within his peak, and Bron just entering his after all.

Agree that Kobe should have allowed the offense to flow through Shaq, see if Brown would change his defensive scheme. If he did, maybe Lakers win. If he doesn't, then Shaq would have averaged 40 a game, we would be chastising Kobe for disappearing in the series, and the Lakers would have still lost in 5 or 6.

The offense was Iso-ball. ISO ball can look good in the regular season but it rarely wins championships and usually will get shut down by better teams in the playoffs. Miami just shot a bunch of outside shots against Chicago in the 2011 ECF and they happened to go in. They got lucky.

Miami should have put a good system in place from day 1, not ISO trash but Miami has a garbage coach in SPOron.

[TheMarkMadsen]

You're a funny dude. In your narrow mind, Lebron's passing and 3PT shooting would be null and void because of a "clogged paint".. Comedy :oldlol:



Lebron made it work with Wade, a ball dominant playmaker. Why wouldn't he be able to do that with...Lamar Odom?

We're not talking about Lebron in 2007 either. This notion that a PRIME Lebron James "can't shoot" is just bs hyperbole from the casual fan.

Forget that though.. Do you people think, Phil would have Lebron/Bynum/Pau playing together for significant minutes? That shit didn't even work with Kobe in the lineup!! :oldlol: All I heard from Lakers fans was that you couldn't have him and Pau playing together because Bynum either took away his touches or that dude was a "black hole"...

And shooting?
Fisher / Vujacic / Radmanovic (before he was traded) all shot ~35% - 40% from 3PT.. How exactly would Lebron not "make it work'.. ? :biggums:

:facepalm

Fisher shot 28% from 3 in the playoffs

Ramanovic wasn't even on the team

Vujacic shot 31% from 3, averaged 3 points per game..

The Lakers won a championship with Bynum and Pau as the starting PF/C.. please tell me how "that shit didn't work with Kobe in the line up"

Fisher/Ariza/Lebron/Pau/Bynum with no bench

you aren't running the triangle with that line up

[RRR3]

They're also not taking into account how the triangle offense, by nature, diminishes their strengths. LeBron and Wade are absurdly ball-dominant players and their effectiveness instantly declines the second they have to play off the ball. That "pound the rock for 20 seconds then kick it to an open shooter" stuff doesn't fly in the Phil's triangle.

Trying to imagine Wade and LeBron playing the high post :roll: . Two guys with no post-up games to speak of. Teams would laugh and stay with the shooters and bigs.
:biggums: :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:facepalm

Fisher shot 28% from 3 in the playoffs

Ramanovic wasn't even on the team

Vujacic shot 31% from 3, averaged 3 points per game..

Radmanovic was on the 2009 Lakers.. Is that NOT what we're discussing? 2009 and onward?

Trevor Ariza (47%), Shannon Brown (48%), Odom (51%), were all good 3PT shooters in the playoffs..

Your argument is weak dude.. :oldlol:

[Fire Colangelo]

:facepalm

Fisher shot 28% from 3 in the playoffs

Ramanovic wasn't even on the team

Vujacic shot 31% from 3, averaged 3 points per game..

You could argue Lebron's superior playmaking abilities would get them easier looks than Kobe did.

[RRR3]

I watched the games. You think Lebron was bad in 2011?

Imagine if Lebron shot a million times per game and missed most of them, thus prevented Wade, who was hot, for getting shots and scoring....that's Kobe for you in the 2004 finals when he shot a billion shots per game (and missed most of them) and kept the shots from going to Shaq where they should have....and they had Phil Jackson as coach and years and years of chemistry together unlike first year Miami. That is way worse. To deny that shows either bias toward Kobe or bias against Lebron.
LeBron was horrendous in 2011, deal with it. And LeBron is one of my favorite players ever.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Radmanovic was on the 2009 Lakers.. Is that NOT what we're discussing? 2009 and onward?

Trevor Ariza (47%), Shannon Brown (48%), Odom (51%), were all good 3PT shooters in the playoffs..

Your argument is weak dude.. :oldlol:

Vladimir Radmanovic played 46 games for the Lakers in 09, he wasn't there for the playoffs.. so how is he relevant at all?

Ariza stepped it up big time and shot great..

You're listing Shannon Browns 3pt % during a post season where he took.. 25 three's all post season..

Lamar took 35, these guys both were shooting like one 3 point attempt per game..

this would be like me saying that Bosh in 2012 was a sniper from the 3 point line because he shot 54% in the playoffs..

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Fisher/Ariza/Lebron/Pau/Bynum

Farmar/Brown/Odom would do just fine.. I'm still 'mythed' with the Lebron "isn't an iso player" garbage. In the postseason, dude is a better scorer than Kobe. :lol

[BlackVVaves]

Right...and, even with that, we saw Lebron play better against the magic in 09 than Kobe did...and at least as good in 10 against the Celtics.

I do not understand this logic either....only on ISH is replacing mike brown with phil jackson and an average team with a great one...going to yield worse results

Can't speak for everyone (as some are posting with clear pre-existing agendas), but all I've been saying is while LeBron would definitely bring in the title in 09, I don't think it should be a given he would have in 2010 with a worse team than he had in 2011, against a better team than he faced in 2011.

Not saying he couldn't win, but I think anyone speaking with certainty is doing so unwittingly.

I do however think that if you switch 2011 Bron with 2011 Kobe, the Lakers win the title. Think the discrepancy between 2011 Bron and an injured, and quite frankly just inferior Kobe that year was large enough that the Mavs and Thunder and Heat/Celtics/Bulls would have lost decidingly.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Vladimir Radmanovic played 46 games for the Lakers in 09, he wasn't there for the playoffs.. so how is he relevant at all?

Ariza stepped it up big time and shot great..

You're listing Shannon Browns 3pt % during a post season where he took.. 25 three's all post season..

Lamar took 35, these guys both were shooting like one 3 point attempt per game..

this would be like me saying that Bosh in 2012 was a sniper from the 3 point line because he shot 54% in the playoffs..

Well for one, I never said they were "snipers".. I said they were good in the playoffs, and the numbers back that up.

We can play semantics all day, but it's pretty safe to assume WITH LeBron, these guys who shot well, would be even better. We're talking about a superior playmaker here. One of the greatest passers ever...

[DMAVS41]

Can't speak for everyone (as some are posting with clear pre-existing agendas), but all I've been saying is while LeBron would definitely bring in the title in 09, I don't think it should be a given he would have in 2010 with a worse team than he had in 2011, against a better team than he faced in 2011.

Not saying he couldn't win, but I think anyone speaking with certainty is doing so unwittingly.

I do however think that if you switch 2011 Bron with 2011 Kobe, the Lakers win the title. Think the discrepancy between 2011 Bron and an injured, and quite frankly just inferior Kobe that year was large enough that the Mavs and Thunder and Heat/Celtics/Bulls would have lost decidingly.


Yea, but this is what I've been trying to address. Lebron isn't winning with any team in the history of the league probably as the best player in 11. So I don't get what we are debating if we are assuming Lebron plays like he did in 2011 in the finals.

Of course Lebron isn't winning going ghost in the finals against a team like the Celtics.

I don't find that very interesting. What is there to debate?'

It's like asking if Kobe could win with the 2012 Heat...and someone saying...yea, but what if he plays like he did in the 04 finals...or what if he quits on his team in that elimination game like he did in the 06 Suns series...

I don't find either of them all that relevant because the results aren't debatable. Lebron plays like he did in the 11 finals...he isn't winning.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Farmar/Brown/Odom would do just fine.. I'm still 'mythed' with the Lebron "isn't an iso player" garbage. In the postseason, dude is a better scorer than Kobe. :lol

now you're just making shit up

please show me where i said Lebron isn't an iso player

What I said was, What's Lebron gonna do when he's constantly having to run iso's in the high post and has the defense sag off of him w/o any really good shooters to kick it out too


Farmar/Brown/Odom would do just fine..

so now, Jordan Farmar who shot 39% from the field and averaged 5 points against second units, and Shannon Brown who averaged 5 points and a rebound on 43% against second units are now going to be starting caliber players on a championship team, durin the same year which they performed poorly against 2nd units..

:lol

[ThePhantomCreep]

:biggums: :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

God, I hate it when posters use that Chappelle emoticon inappropriately. Neither LeBron nor Wade are known for their post play. They barely attack from the high post NOW, much less 5 years ago.

The triangle would require them to post up quite a bit. That isn't a strength for either player. This is in contrast to Jordan and Kobe type players who, while ballhogs, are not nearly as ball-dominant and have stellar post games. It makes me laugh to think that LeBron and Wade would adjust flawlessly.

[RRR3]

God, I hate it when posters use that Chappelle emoticon inappropriately. Neither LeBron nor Wade are not for their post play. They barely attack from the high post NOW, much less 5 years ago.

The triangle would require them to post up quite a bit. That isn't a strength for either player. This is in contrast to Jordan and Kobe type players who, while ballhogs, are not nearly as ball-dominant. There is a difference.
Do you watch LeBron James play?

[Ronaldinho]

Well for one, I never said they were "snipers".. I said they were good in the playoffs, and the numbers back that up.

We can play semantics all day, but it's pretty safe to assume WITH LeBron, these guys who shot well, would be even better. We're talking about a superior playmaker here. One of the greatest passers ever...
Wtf, not at all. He is a good passer, but not one of the greatest of all time.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

now you're just making shit up

please show me where i said Lebron isn't an iso player

What I said was, What's Lebron gonna do when he's constantly having to run iso's in the high post and has the defense sag off of him w/o any really good shooters to kick it out too

You're looking at my posts, but not really reading them.. I never said YOU did. People who THINK Lebron cannot shoot will adhere to the myth he isn't an iso player. That he has no other "weapons" in his so-called "arsenal".

I have no personal stake in the matter, but the facts show LeBron, in the playoffs, has a higher PPG output than Kobe. Bottom line..


so now, Jordan Farmar who shot 39% from the field and averaged 5 points against second units, and Shannon Brown who averaged 5 points and a rebound on 43% against second units are now going to be starting caliber players on a championship team, durin the same year which they performed poorly against 2nd units..

Kobe made it work.. :oldlol: I'm sure a superior perimeter player in his prime would too.

[TheMarkMadsen]

You're looking at my posts, but not really reading them.. I never said YOU did. People who THINK Lebron cannot shoot will adhere to the myth he isn't an iso player. That he has no other "weapons" in his so-called "arsenal".

I have no personal stake in the matter, but the facts show LeBron, in the playoffs, has a higher PPG output than Kobe. Bottom line..



Kobe made it work.. :oldlol: I'm sure a superior perimeter player, in his prime, would too.

you suggested that Farmar/Brown would be starting and that would work :facepalm

which i showed you how absurd that assessment is considering how poorly each played against 2nd units at the time..

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Wtf, not at all. He is a good passer, but not one of the greatest of all time.

To each his own, but I've always considered Lebron to be one of the best in his craft (when it pertains to passing)... Dude is an innate playmaker.

[Cold soul]

You're looking at my posts, but not really reading them.. I never said YOU did. People who THINK Lebron cannot shoot will adhere to the myth he isn't an iso player. That he has no other "weapons" in his so-called "arsenal".

I have no personal stake in the matter, but the facts show LeBron, in the playoffs, has a higher PPG output than Kobe. Bottom line..



Kobe made it work.. :oldlol: I'm sure a superior perimeter player in his prime would too.

Lol Lebron being superior perimeter player than prime Kobe. GFTO!

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

you suggested that Farmar/Brown would be starting and that would work :facepalm

which i showed you how absurd that assessment is considering how poorly each played against 2nd units at the time..

Please show me where I made that claim. Once again dude.. you're NOT reading what I'm posting.

I "suggested" that they would work as a unit off the bench. A bench you claimed to be non-existent.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Do you watch LeBron James play?
Yup. By 2009 LeBron had the post play of Kevin Mchale.

This one: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_McHale_(actor)

[secund2nun]

LeBron was horrendous in 2011, deal with it. And LeBron is one of my favorite players ever.

I am not arguing that he played well. I was debating Lebron 2011 vs Kobe 2004 and Lebron was much better in 2011 than Kobe in 2004. Deal with it.

[Ronaldinho]

I am not arguing that he played well. I was debating Lebron 2011 vs Kobe 2004 and Lebron was much better in 2011 than Kobe in 2004. Deal with it.
Lebron finals in 07 is the worst of all time, with 2011 coming close, chill out.

[catquickspider]

Well LeBron and prime Dwade roflstomp the NBA with this cast so there's that.


Rose could legitimately win FMVP And so could Melo but the Celtics would give them a hell of a battle. Plus the West was brutal and Steve Nash would have given Rose all he could handle in the WCF. 50/50 for Rose and Melo.


Edit: We're talking 09' season too? Yikes. I don't know if Melo or Rose could get through that stacked WC that year but still 50/50.

:roll:

The lakers had bad 3 point shooting and Gasol is not that good at pick n roll.

Lebron would have to go against double teams more often. Lebron has lived off 3 pointer shooters his whole career.