anyone who thinks a big man from 60's,70's,80's,90's,00's would dominate today.......

[kennethgriffin]

is on drugs or not a fan of the game of basketball

the rules changed to fit guard play. they changed to fit perimeter play. they changed to encourage flashy stars

basically they changed for lebron


shaq was the last guy who could abuse the rules... just back a guy down for 20 seconds with illegal defense and mostly single coverage. if they dared to collapse an extra guy he kicked it out and stayed in his position. theyed throw it back in.. the rotations were slow because of man to man coverage and illegal defense.


today its impossible to back a guy down.. its impossible to get inside position.

and the rules favor slashing and cutting.

for some reason breathing on a guy outside draws a foul. but big men need to draw blood to get a call

handchecking on bigs is legal. but not on perimeter guys

basically the nba created/manufactured the insanely big crop of star PG's... theyve made durant legendary. theyve made lebron unstoppable..

and even kobe took advantage of it late in his career. being able to average near 30ppg before his achilles injury with a 34 year old body coming off 50 knee surgeries


i'm sorry but wilt/kareem and even shaq would have a hard time doing anything... infact i believe shaq was still big and strong enough to be productive if they still had early 2000's rules.. but in boston you could see the new rules turning him into an obsolete player

the only reason duncans lasted so long is cause he has a mid range game

hakeem might be the only big that i could see still putting up close to his normal average

its a fact. only perimeter guys could come from the past and do good in this era. look at the way the nba has shit out roy hibbert. another casualty

[fpliii]

God, I hate the league catering to perimeter players.

You might be right though, griff. But I still think the legends would get theirs.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Everything you post is shit.

[WillC]

So Al Jefferson can average 21.9ppg and 10.7rpg in today's NBA but you don't think Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem etc would dominate?

Strong argument right there.

[kennethgriffin]

God, I hate the league catering to perimeter players.

You might be right though, griff. But I still think the legends would get theirs.



i dont think so.. the whole idea of a big man is banging, bulling over people. abusing people. backing them down. camping. getting calls

shaq got calls all the time. on every miss they thought he must have been fouled. but shaq was f*cking the defender up and bruising them way worse.

he absolutely knocked the hell out of mutombo in the 2001 finals. he left with 2 black eyes. 4 bumps on his head and 5 broken ribs


that sh*t doesnt happen anymore. its not a big mans game anymore. its an insult to man kind and humans in general to say its just a lack of 6 billion people being able to produce a single guy over the height of 6-10 that can play big man basketball anymore successfully..

to just assume humans were better/smarter/more talented back in the 60's,70's,80's,90's and early 00's is sort of a spit in the face to genetics

its the game thats changed. not human beings

[fpliii]

i dont think so.. the whole idea of a big man is banging, bulling over people. abusing people. backing them down. camping. getting calls

shaq got calls all the time. on every miss they thought he must have been fouled. but shaq was f*cking the defender up and bruising them way worse.

he absolutely knocked the hell out of mutombo in the 2001 finals. he left with 2 black eyes. 4 bumps on his head and 5 broken ribs


that sh*t doesnt happen anymore. its not a big mans game anymore. its an insult to man kind and humans in general to say its just a lack of 6 billion people being able to produce a single guy over the height of 6-10 that can play big man basketball anymore successfully..

to just assume humans were better/smarter/more talented back in the 60's,70's,80's,90's and early 00's is sort of a spit in the face to genetics

its the game thats changed. not human beings
If that's the case, is it worth watching anymore?

[Im Still Ballin]

I see your point and agree that the league is heavily perimeter orientated.

But you have overly simplified it

If Dwight can put up 23/14 and lead a team to the finals and win multiple DPOY awards and come close to winning MVP a few times, then surely other great bigs could.

[kennethgriffin]

So Al Jefferson can average 21.9ppg and 10.7rpg in today's NBA but you don't think Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem etc would dominate?

Strong argument right there.


you're confusing empty stats with valued stats.


put him on a contender and his stats drop to 15ppg


500 teams dont get played the same way.

and 21.9 ppg isnt that amazing anyway

i'm talking about the 27-29ppg+ big men

[sportjames23]

Everything you post is shit.


Ban his ass.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Everything you post is shit.

This

[AnaheimLakers24]

Everything you post is shit.
dispute it than ginger fgt. euroleague is right about your bitchass

[rzp]

So Al Jefferson can average 21.9ppg and 10.7rpg in today's NBA but you don't think Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem etc would dominate?

Strong argument right there.

pwned

[kennethgriffin]

so i'm wrong? the league hasnt changed? all these guys saying or agreeing with "all i post is shit" havent used the era argument to bash current players or discredit kobe?


they call out the game being soft and garbage. and how it encourages perimeter stars... but at the same time those same people come back and say "wilt would put up 80ppg!"

"shaq would put up 40ppg!"

" big men from my day would dominate today!"




stop having your cake and eating it too... you gotta pick one agenda and stick with it

if you think all these other bigs would put the exact same numbers up or better.. then this era is no worse than any other in officiating or anything

then you have nothing against anyone..

[kennethgriffin]

this era is shit for a reason

and it isnt a lack of tall strong human beings with hand eye coordination

its the rule changes

NO wilt would not dominate. sorry

[TheMilkyBarKid]

dispute it than ginger fgt. euroleague is right about your bitchass
Who shit in this *****'s cereal?

[CavaliersFTW]

So Al Jefferson can average 21.9ppg and 10.7rpg in today's NBA but you don't think Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem etc would dominate?

Strong argument right there.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Al-Jefferson-2979/

Plus Al Jefferson = physically identical to Wayne Embry in size, ~ 6-8 270 with long arms and big hands, you know just another one of the helpless examples of "undersized" bigs Wilt was crushing that wouldn't even be able to make it in today's league where every big is a "7 footer" :lol

[Dro]

Your premise is that they couldn't dominate because or rule changes which is completely different than acting like they wouldn't even be able to compete because of lack of talent...

[Prometheus]

is on drugs or not a fan of the game of basketball

the rules changed to fit guard play. they changed to fit perimeter play. they changed to encourage flashy stars

basically they changed for lebron


shaq was the last guy who could abuse the rules... just back a guy down for 20 seconds with illegal defense and mostly single coverage. if they dared to collapse an extra guy he kicked it out and stayed in his position. theyed throw it back in.. the rotations were slow because of man to man coverage and illegal defense.


today its impossible to back a guy down.. its impossible to get inside position.

and the rules favor slashing and cutting.

for some reason breathing on a guy outside draws a foul. but big men need to draw blood to get a call

handchecking on bigs is legal. but not on perimeter guys

basically the nba created/manufactured the insanely big crop of star PG's... theyve made durant legendary. theyve made lebron unstoppable..

and even kobe took advantage of it late in his career. being able to average near 30ppg before his achilles injury with a 34 year old body coming off 50 knee surgeries


i'm sorry but wilt/kareem and even shaq would have a hard time doing anything... infact i believe shaq was still big and strong enough to be productive if they still had early 2000's rules.. but in boston you could see the new rules turning him into an obsolete player

the only reason duncans lasted so long is cause he has a mid range game

hakeem might be the only big that i could see still putting up close to his normal average

its a fact. only perimeter guys could come from the past and do good in this era. look at the way the nba has shit out roy hibbert. another casualty

Dude, if post play was allowed to be more rough and physical, LeBron would dominate the small forward position to a much greater extent than he does now. Deep down you know this.

[kennethgriffin]

Your premise is that they couldn't dominate because or rule changes which is completely different than acting like they wouldn't even be able to compete because of lack of talent...

when it comes to bigs not being able to dominate in todays nba. its not due to talent.

i mean post moves havent changed much over the years. big men were mostly never known for their bag of tricks or handling

their hooks, layups and dunks are all pretty similar



when i bash on the 50's, 60's, 70's players in terms of talent. i usualy stick to guards who lacked an off hand, lacked speed, lacked athleticism, lacked outside shooting, lacked footwork or spacing... and didnt have the same all around creation off the dribble


but with big men there isnt much difference with the way shaq or wilt backed down a guy and jumped clean over them and threw it down



wilt might have been able to destroy the league in the 80's and 90's the same way other bigs did. but not today

sorry

[Real Men Wear Green]

dispute it than ginger fgt. euroleague is right about your bitchass
Dispute what, dumbass? This idiot wrote that Shaq would be ineffective. That isn't worth an argument just like your stupid mouth isn't worth a reply. I just occasionally like to inform an idiot that he's an idiot.

[kennethgriffin]

Dude, if post play was allowed to be more rough and physical, LeBron would dominate the small forward position to a much greater extent than he does now. Deep down you know this.


him and his 1 single sh*tty footwork awkward back down 3 dribble turn around left handed bank hook shot.. that move he needed 10 years to learn how to do and does it 2 times a game?

f*ck off

lebron is a face up player. he loses all balance when he takes his eyes off the rim

he has bow legged 6 toed duck feet. he cant be a big man

[IMObjective]

this era is shit for a reason

and it isnt a lack of tall strong human beings with hand eye coordination

its the rule changes

NO wilt would not dominate. sorry
Rule changes might not be helping out the bigs, but people who watched the past great big men play know that they are not seeing that quality in today's league. Jordan dominated the league before the perimeter rule changes, and one could say he is the reason the league started to favor perimeter play.

Jordan's unprecedented popularity motivated the league, while also inspiring many young players, to start focusing more on perimeter play and guys like Kobe and LeBron came along. The league just wants to help its stars, make the popular even more popular. I'm sure just like how Jordan transcended big men dominated play, there will come along another great, great center who shit on the perimeter favored rules of today and inspire the nation to start appreciating big men again, resulting once again in rule changes. Everything in life happens in cycles.

[ballup]

I knew this wasn't serious or even smart once you said Shaq would back someone down for 20 sec

[Prometheus]

him and his 1 single sh*tty footwork awkward back down 3 dribble turn around left handed bank hook shot.. that move he needed 10 years to learn how to do and does it 2 times a game?

f*ck off

lebron is a face up player. he loses all balance when he takes his eyes off the rim

he has bow legged 6 toed duck feet. he cant be a big man

Call it whatever you want, he is dominant at his position in the low post. He's bigger and stronger, and generally much more athletic than anyone who guards him. If post play was allowed to be more physical than it is now, he would be even more dominant.

And also you're wrong. He has the Dirk-one-legged fade, the regular fade to either shoulder, a nice drop step on smaller defenders, and a few other moves that I don't know the names of. Your hater goggles betray you.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Your delusional fantasy world sounds pretty entertaining to live in

[russwest0]

yeah, I'm gonna agree with griff on this one.

It's the reason I think you have to take someone like Wiggins over Embiid even though Embiid is clearly the better prospect.

It's a perimeter oriented league now.

[russwest0]

I wouldn't go as far as to say someone like Shaq would be ineffective, but you're fooling yourself if you don't think this is BY FAR the worst era for bigmen in large part due to the rules and how the game is called now.

[Dresta]

i dont think so.. the whole idea of a big man is banging, bulling over people. abusing people. backing them down. camping. getting calls

shaq got calls all the time. on every miss they thought he must have been fouled. but shaq was f*cking the defender up and bruising them way worse.

he absolutely knocked the hell out of mutombo in the 2001 finals. he left with 2 black eyes. 4 bumps on his head and 5 broken ribs


that sh*t doesnt happen anymore. its not a big mans game anymore. its an insult to man kind and humans in general to say its just a lack of 6 billion people being able to produce a single guy over the height of 6-10 that can play big man basketball anymore successfully..

to just assume humans were better/smarter/more talented back in the 60's,70's,80's,90's and early 00's is sort of a spit in the face to genetics

its the game thats changed. not human beings


What, are you retarded? The human beings on the court have changed you imbecile.

[Dro]

when it comes to bigs not being able to dominate in todays nba. its not due to talent.

i mean post moves havent changed much over the years. big men were mostly never known for their bag of tricks or handling

their hooks, layups and dunks are all pretty similar



when i bash on the 50's, 60's, 70's players in terms of talent. i usualy stick to guards who lacked an off hand, lacked speed, lacked athleticism, lacked outside shooting, lacked footwork or spacing... and didnt have the same all around creation off the dribble


but with big men there isnt much difference with the way shaq or wilt backed down a guy and jumped clean over them and threw it down



wilt might have been able to destroy the league in the 80's and 90's the same way other bigs did. but not today

sorry
I get this but its like you're arguing a point that everyone already knows or has acknowledged.....Because of rule changes, bigs wouldn't be able to dominate like that...At least I assume everyone knows that. I think when people like CavsFTW or whoever are talking about Wilt, they are assuming if the rules were the same...I think they know the rule changes would change things...

Now if people are saying that regardless of rule changes, bigs would be able to still dominate, then I dont' agree with that...However, its hard to ignore the numbers that a Howard can put up even in his prime with no back-to-basket game or what Al Jefferson can do because he has a great post game...Both of these guys have some of the best stats in the NBA today so I think its safe to assume, Wilt or Kareem could do the same if not better...

[oh the horror]

Know what's even more mind blowing?


The fact that some are even agreeing with the OP.


Roy Hibbert is an all star in today's nba. But bigs from stronger eras wouldn't dominate in today's league.



How the fu*k is this even a discussion?

[SsKSpurs21]

this guy would destroy the current league....


:bowdown:
http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/4-david-robinson-nba-60-points-club-players-who-have-scored-60-points-in-a-game.jpg

[IMObjective]

this guy would destroy the current league....


:bowdown:
http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/4-david-robinson-nba-60-points-club-players-who-have-scored-60-points-in-a-game.jpg
A 7'1 LeBron

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

A few rule changes are gonna stop Shaq, arguably the most dominant force we've seen; Kareem, the greatest non-wing scorer; and Hakeem, arguably the most sound non-wing... ? Meanwhile Dwight Howard has a career average of 19/12 in the postseason.. :oldlol:

Instead of attributing this "lack of big-men" phenomena to "rules", maybe you could try watching the games? Big men in particular have no sense of fundamentals today. Kareem, not only one of the greatest players, but teachers this side of Hakeem, has been quoted saying his "students" dont find post moves (or his sky-hook) to be "entertaining".. That the guys he's coached wanted to deviate from the basket and just shoot jumpers (we've heard Andrew Bynum and Dwight BOTH say they want to shoot jumpshots... :oldlol:)

I think a big part of the problem has been A, the influx of europeans (a lot of the bigmen overseas have a set jumpshot.. its crazy) and B, the AND1 era breeding shot jackers which in-turn deviated from the fundamentals.

Point being, its silly to blame "rules" for a problem that goes well beyond that..

[fpliii]

when it comes to bigs not being able to dominate in todays nba. its not due to talent.

i mean post moves havent changed much over the years. big men were mostly never known for their bag of tricks or handling

their hooks, layups and dunks are all pretty similar



when i bash on the 50's, 60's, 70's players in terms of talent. i usualy stick to guards who lacked an off hand, lacked speed, lacked athleticism, lacked outside shooting, lacked footwork or spacing... and didnt have the same all around creation off the dribble


but with big men there isnt much difference with the way shaq or wilt backed down a guy and jumped clean over them and threw it down



wilt might have been able to destroy the league in the 80's and 90's the same way other bigs did. but not today

sorry
Oscar being the exception. :pimp:

[ABfor3]

Fundamentals of the big men from previous eras would blatantly school these big men of today's era.

[iTare]

op im dissapoint
http://replygif.net/i/1446.gif

[russwest0]

Fundamentals of the big men from previous eras would blatantly school these big men of today's era.

Right, and why is it that big men of today's era aren't getting taught fundamentals?

[CavaliersFTW]

Oscar being the exception. :pimp:
Guy Rogers, Lou Hudson, Dave Bing, Walt Hazzard, Archie Clark... there's a long list of players that were ambidextrous dribblers and finishers in that era that used crossovers, jab steps and any other guard handling move in the modern game. Jerry West is pretty much the one freak outlier guard that was visibly 1 hand dominant. And yet, he was still the #2 best guard of the 1960's, he was better than all the guys with an ambidextrous handle and scoring hand. Being that he is such a high profile player his footage which is often seen from that era gives people the illusion that 'all' the guards back then 'couldn't dribble (with non-dominant hand)'... it's pretty much just him though.

[fpliii]

Guy Rogers, Lou Hudson, Dave Bing, Walt Hazzard, Archie Clark... there's a long list of players that were ambidextrous dribblers and finishers in that era that used crossovers, jab steps and any other guard handling move in the modern game. Jerry West is pretty much the one freak outlier guard that was visibly 1 hand dominant. And yet, he was still the #2 best guard of the 1960's, he was better than all the guys with an ambidextrous handle and scoring hand. Being that he is such a high profile player his footage which is often seen from that era gives people the illusion that 'all' the guards back then 'couldn't dribble (with non-dominant hand)'... it's pretty much just him though.
:applause:

Happy he made the HOF. Not a great shooter so he wasn't an ideal PG to pair with Wilt, but a tremendous passer by all accounts.

[SHAQisGOAT]

A few rule changes are gonna stop Shaq, arguably the most dominant force we've seen; Kareem, the greatest non-wing scorer; and Hakeem, arguably the most sound non-wing... ? Meanwhile Dwight Howard has a career average of 19/12 in the postseason.. :oldlol:

Instead of attributing this "lack of big-men" phenomena to "rules", maybe you could try watching the games? Big men in particular have no sense of fundamentals today. Kareem, not only one of the greatest players, but teachers this side of Hakeem, has been quoted saying his "students" dont find post moves (or his sky-hook) to be "entertaining".. That the guys he's coached wanted to deviate from the basket and just shoot jumpers (we've heard Andrew Bynum and Dwight BOTH say they want to shoot jumpshots... :oldlol:)

I think a big part of the problem has been A, the influx of europeans (a lot of the bigmen overseas have a set jumpshot.. its crazy) and B, the AND1 era breeding shot jackers which in-turn deviated from the fundamentals.

Point being, its silly to blame "rules" for a problem that goes well beyond that..


:applause: :applause:

This kid (OP) should watch some of the greatest centers play.
Kareem knew how to "spot" double or triple-teams before they happened and just evaded them with great footwork for the score, or went the other way for the skyhook, plus if you swarmed him, he'd easily recognize the open man, a cutter or a spot-up shooter, even making a pass right after the ball touches him.. front him in the post and he knows how to move and get position to score, try to play ball denial with 2 men and he'd set some screens/picks, allowing others to score. He had the greatest scoring move and many counters to that, even turnaround faders, and that was a 7'2'' player with plenty of mobility :lol Dwight or Al Jefferson can't even begin to **** with that.
Shaq just demanded double-teams if you didn't want to get burned and he was a really good passer, so either way you'd be screwed, meanwhile people considering Dwight a great passer out of doubles, just go look at what Shaq did. Shaq's corpse was averaging 17 ppg on 59% from the field back in 07, shit..
Al Jeff is putting up 22 ppg on over 50% FG, and don't get me wrong, dude is really skilled, but he's not even 6'9 w/o shoes, he doesn't have what you call good athleticism even for his size, he doesn't have elite IQ or great passing for a bigman, his post-game is pretty good but not close to all-time great, having various "flaws"... Just an example..

[ABfor3]

Right, and why is it that big men of today's era aren't getting taught fundamentals?
Because the game has changed immensely , it favors the style of a guard. Now we have executives looking for big men who can stretch the floor like Anthony Bennett being drafted number 1 instead of a physical presence with old school style of play like Gorgui Dieng going outside the top 10. We see who's making a bigger impact already, but it's not a knock on stretch big men because it's a dangerous weapon to have on a team if used correctly.

[ralph_i_el]

So Al Jefferson can average 21.9ppg and 10.7rpg in today's NBA but you don't think Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem etc would dominate?

Strong argument right there.

on 19 shots per game. not efficient at all. Obviously all those guys would still be all star level players but that doesn't change the fact that the game has changed

[dr.hee]

Amare was having a 25 ppg season in 10/11. Blake is averaging 24 ppg this year. Now take Shaq/Robinson/Kareem/Wilt...what's the argument for them not being better than those inferior players?

Now I know OP probably never heard of any of those players (both current and old school), which is fine. Being a casual at best watcher of the league is cool. It's just a game after all. What I don't get on the other hand...why does Griff post random bullshit on a message board about a game he's neither interested in, nor knowledgeable about? What's the point?

[dgaras]

shit poster

little kid cant even write a legit paragraph without making spelling and grammatical mistakes

[Dro]

I think he might need to see ShaqisGOAT Pistol Pete highlights. Pistol is Steve Nash way before Steve's parents ever enjoyed coitus..

Edit - meant ShaqisGOAT, not shaqattack:facepalm

[SHAQisGOAT]

on 19 shots per game. not efficient at all. Obviously all those guys would still be all star level players but that doesn't change the fact that the game has changed

Doesn't change the fact that he's shooting 51% from the floor.. That's not-efficient-at-all nowadays? What, because he doesn't get even close to KD's treatment, because he "can't" get to the line a lot and ain't shooting over 70%? :lol 51% from the field while scoring 22 points is efficient, at least regarding the discussion here, you act like he's shooting 46% from the field while not even scoring 20 ppg lol. Also the Cats are amongst the bottom 10 in terms of 3pt shooting, blame it on the shooters, blame it on his passing, but he could definitely have more floor spacing to do his thing, in today's league.

And like I've said before:
Al Jeff is putting up 22 ppg on over 50% FG, and don't get me wrong, dude is really skilled, but he's not even 6'9 w/o shoes, he doesn't have what you call good athleticism even for his size, he doesn't have elite IQ or great passing for a bigman, his post-game is pretty good but not even close to all-time great, having various "flaws"... Just an example..

Imagine Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt, Moses, D-Rob........ Shit imagine Bob Lanier, Brad Daugherty, Robert Parish.....
Keep playing the 'game-changed' card though :oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

is on drugs or not a fan of the game of basketball

the rules changed to fit guard play. they changed to fit perimeter play. they changed to encourage flashy stars

basically they changed for lebron



:kobe:

Stopped reading there.

[ralph_i_el]

Doesn't change the fact that he's shooting 51% from the floor.. That's not-efficient-at-all nowadays? What, because he doesn't get even close to KD's treatment, because he "can't" get to the line a lot and ain't shooting over 70%? :lol 51% from the field while scoring 22 points is efficient, at least regarding the discussion here, you act like he's shooting 46% from the field while not even scoring 20 ppg lol. Also the Cats are amongst the bottom 10 in terms of 3pt shooting, blame it on the shooters, blame it on his passing, but he could definitely have more floor spacing to do his thing, in today's league.

And like I've said before:
Al Jeff is putting up 22 ppg on over 50% FG, and don't get me wrong, dude is really skilled, but he's not even 6'9 w/o shoes, he doesn't have what you call good athleticism even for his size, he doesn't have elite IQ or great passing for a bigman, his post-game is pretty good but not even close to all-time great, having various "flaws"... Just an example..

Imagine Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt, Moses, D-Rob........ Shit imagine Bob Lanier, Brad Daugherty, Robert Parish.....
Keep playing the 'game-changed' card though :oldlol:


50% is shit when you don't get to the line or shoot 3's. They run their offense around him and he's got the best post moves in the league+ a decent jumper and that's the best he can do.

If the game hasn't changed, why is it so different? How do you explain why back to the basket guys aren't as successful as face-up+jumpshooting bigs now? They literally have changed the rules multiple times to make post up play less effective. Teams are more likely to look for jumpshooting bigs to space the floor and defensive bigs to lock down the paint. Plenty of bigs who don't look great on O now would look a ton better back in the day

[DonDadda59]

you're a big dummy you know that? 50% is shit when you don't get to the line or shoot 3's. They run their offense around him and he's got the best post moves in the league+ a decent jumper and that's the best he can do.

If the game hasn't changed, why is it so different? How do you explain why back to the basket guys aren't as successful as face-up+jumpshooting bigs now?

Name all of the players in the league who are primarily back to the basket players.

[aj1987]

Doesn't change the fact that he's shooting 51% from the floor.. That's not-efficient-at-all nowadays?
Do you even know the meaning of efficiency? Hell no, that's not efficient. 53% TS? Nope. Not efficient at all. The point is to take as few shots as possible to score as many points as possible. Dwight, who is a "terrible" offensive player and can't hit FT's to save his life, is scoring 18 points on 11 shots a game. Even if you completely is FT's, Dwight scoring 13.4 points on 11.4 shots a game is significantly more efficient than Al's 22 points on 19 shots a game.

Stop looking at FG% and look at the TS% for efficiency. It's a better way to measure a players efficiency.

[ralph_i_el]

Name all of the players in the league who are primarily back to the basket players.

Why don't you? I said my piece

[dr.hee]

50% is shit when you don't get to the line or shoot 3's.

Teams are having an average 2pt FG% of 48.7% this year. So Jefferson is literally above average, that's not exactly "shit". Reading different opinions is interesting, but why do you casuals have to rely on hypberbole? What about making a concrete, reasonable argument? Is it really that hard? Once again, Amare scored 25 ppg in 10/11, Blake is at 24 ppg this year. But much better players like Robinson or Hakeem couldn't do better? What's your argument for that?

[ralph_i_el]

Teams are having an average 2pt FG% of 48.7% this year. So Jefferson is literally above average, that's not exactly "shit". Reading different opinions is interesting, but why do you casuals have to rely on hypberbole? What about making a concrete, reasonable argument? Is it really that hard? Once again, Amare scored 25 ppg in 10/11, Blake is at 24 ppg this year. But much better players like Robinson or Hakeem couldn't do better? What's your argument for that?

A big man SHOULD shoot higher than average on 2's...especially when that's the only thing they shoot. His 2p% is not impressive compared to other bigs this season



I'd argue that if Robinson or Hakeem played today they would probably be putting up similar numbers to Blake :confusedshrug: Why do you just get to say they're "much better players" like it's complete fact.

Amare and Blake score points like that because they play/played a style that happens to be the style that the rules benefit today. Kind of like how Hakeem played in a period where the rules benefited post up play (not that he wasn't also a great face up threat).

No back to the basket big will average 30 ppg again. You can pull off as many sweet post moves as you want but fact is there are going to be more times where the help D gets at you in the paint compared to the "glory days" of bigs.

[ILLsmak]

depends. I mean, I agree somewhat. If by dominate they mean put up numbers like 30+ on 60%. I think there are boards to be gotten tho, for sure, and bigs can score a lot on put backs.

There is a huge difference, even in today's game between someone getting 20ish ppg and 30. I mean, look at our boy pauk. He made the 30 5 5 thread to prop Bron without taking into account how hard it is to score 30. They said something about KD like he has more 30 pt games than most rosters combined.

So, in general getting 30 is hard. And it's way harder as a big now especially if you can't shoot FTs or score out to like 12-15.

-Smak

[DonDadda59]

Why don't you? I said my piece

Your piece was extremely flawed and nonsensical, honestly. Are you saying that Shaq wouldn't be able to dominate the game today where his biggest challenge would be Roy f*cking Hibbert just because the league made it easier for perimeter players to score? You do know that he was the reason 'zone' was allowed in the league was because of his dominance, right? Also, did you know that he continued to shit on the league and rack up rings after the rules were changed? Same with Duncan.

But if a 22 year old Shaq were in the draft this year, GMs would pick some soft as tissue paper jump shooting European over him? :oldlol:

Is that what you're really saying?

[ralph_i_el]

Your piece was extremely flawed and nonsensical, honestly. Are you saying that Shaq wouldn't be able to dominate the game today where his biggest challenge would be Roy f*cking Hibbert just because the league made it easier for perimeter players to score? You do know that he was the reason 'zone' was allowed in the league was because of his dominance, right? Also, did you know that he continued to shit on the league and rack up rings after the rules were changed? Same with Duncan.

But if a 22 year old Shaq were in the draft this year, GMs would pick some soft as tissue paper jump shooting European over him? :oldlol:

Is that what you're really saying?

:facepalm It gets me frustrated when people trash talk today's big men by comparing their stats to the great big men of history when the context of those stats are completely different. The shaqs and hakeems and kareems would be great in any era, but they aren't putting up the eye popping stats that have led people to believe that today's bigs are shitty. I'm not saying they'd take Bargnani over Shaq, I'm saying they'd take Dirk over Dwight.

[CavaliersFTW]

Your piece was extremely flawed and nonsensical, honestly. Are you saying that Shaq wouldn't be able to dominate the game today where his biggest challenge would be Roy f*cking Hibbert just because the league made it easier for perimeter players to score? You do know that he was the reason 'zone' was allowed in the league was because of his dominance, right? Also, did you know that he continued to shit on the league and rack up rings after the rules were changed? Same with Duncan.

But if a 22 year old Shaq were in the draft this year, GMs would pick some soft as tissue paper jump shooting European over him? :oldlol:

Is that what you're really saying?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: well said :applause:

[DonDadda59]

:facepalm It gets me frustrated when people trash talk today's big men by comparing their stats to the great big men of history when the context of those stats are completely different. The shaqs and hakeems and kareems would be great in any era, but they aren't putting up the eye popping stats that have led people to believe that today's bigs are shitty. I'm not saying they'd take Bargnani over Shaq, I'm saying they'd take Dirk over Dwight.

Because Dwight has the offensive skills of tree :oldlol:

Your biggest mistake is that you've convinced yourself that because there is a dearth of talent in the league in terms of big men, that the truly great ones of the past would be doing what Roy Hibbert is doing. Forget stats- look at ability. With the exception of a handful of bigs (Jefferson, the ghost of Tim Duncan, Gasol when healthy), the big men of today are flat out garbage. No other way to really put it. They lack the skills and ability to be effective offensively in the post.

Put Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, etc in the league today and they dominate, simple as that. We are witnessing one of the weakest eras in NBA History, even Jerry West pointed that out.

[SCdac]

Plenty of HOF big men have been dominant without scoring 30 ppg. Hitting that minimum isn't a necessity and scoring lower than it does not automatically imply weakness... it's more about the impact tied along with the raw numbers.

In terms of recent era, Tim Duncan averaged 27 ppg against the Suns en route to the 07 championship (and 22+ ppg for the playoffs). KG scored 23 ppg on the Pistons (including a 33 point Game 5) the next season, 21+ ppg in the playoffs as a whole. Imagine how great prime TD and KG would be today... and I don't buy the theory that Tony Parker and Paul Pierce were more important to those teams ('07 Spurs and '08 Celtics).

[fpliii]

Plenty of HOF big men have been dominant without scoring 30 ppg. Hitting that minimum isn't a necessity and scoring lower than it does not automatically imply weakness... it's more about the impact tied along with the raw numbers.

In terms of recent era, Tim Duncan averaged 27 ppg against the Suns en route to the 07 championship (and 22+ ppg for the playoffs). KG scored 23 ppg on the Pistons (including a 33 point Game 5) the next season, 21+ ppg in the playoffs as a whole. Imagine how great prime TD and KG would be today... and I don't buy the theory that Tony Parker and Paul Pierce were more important to those teams ('07 Spurs and '08 Celtics).
:applause:

[atljonesbro]

This thread does make sense. People always talk about how they changed rules to favor perimeter players over bigs yet they base their assumptions that bigs would dominate on how they played with rules in their favor back in the day and how bigs play now with rules against them. Basically the nostalgists will say whatever favors their argument without any logic.

[Dro]

This thread does make sense. People always talk about how they changed rules to favor perimeter players over bigs yet they base their assumptions that bigs would dominate on how they played with rules in their favor back in the day and how bigs play now with rules against them. Basically the nostalgists will say whatever favors their argument without any logic.


Because of rule changes, bigs wouldn't be able to dominate like that...At least I assume everyone knows that. I think when people like CavsFTW or whoever are talking about Wilt, they are assuming if the rules were the same...I think they know the rule changes would change things..
..

[f0und]

what a *hit post. you can always expect a kobe lover's lack of bball knowledge to reflect everything else he's posts about.

[DonDadda59]

This thread does make sense. People always talk about how they changed rules to favor perimeter players over bigs yet they base their assumptions that bigs would dominate on how they played with rules in their favor back in the day and how bigs play now with rules against them. Basically the nostalgists will say whatever favors their argument without any logic.

Just because they changed the rules to make life easier for perimeter players doesn't mean they changed them to penalize bigs. Guys like Shaq, Kareem, etc would be playing under similar circumstances as they did during their playing careers. As pointed out several times- a guy like Jefferson, an undersized center with average athleticism/mobility, is having no problem getting his playing like a traditional big.

What reason do we have to believe that bigger, stronger, more athletic, more skilled bigs of the past would struggle where he has flourished? :confusedshrug:

[Dro]

Just because they changed the rules to make life easier for perimeter players doesn't mean they changed them to penalize bigs. Guys like Shaq, Kareem, etc would be playing under similar circumstances as they did during their playing careers. As pointed out several times- a guy like Jefferson, an undersized center with average athleticism/mobility, is having no problem getting his playing like a traditional big.

What reason do we have to believe that bigger, stronger, more athletic, more skilled bigs of the past would struggle where he has flourished? :confusedshrug:
Because ish>>>>>>>>>>>>>logic

[Marchesk]

I'd argue that if Robinson or Hakeem played today they would probably be putting up similar numbers to Blake Why do you just get to say they're "much better players" like it's complete fact.

Hakeem is top 10 all-time, and David Robinson is with Wilt as the most athletic seven footers of all-time.

Blake isn't even in the same conversation.

And Kareem or Shaq ... there is no big today remotely in their league (other than Duncan).

[ralph_i_el]

Plenty of HOF big men have been dominant without scoring 30 ppg. Hitting that minimum isn't a necessity and scoring lower than it does not automatically imply weakness... it's more about the impact tied along with the raw numbers.

In terms of recent era, Tim Duncan averaged 27 ppg against the Suns en route to the 07 championship (and 22+ ppg for the playoffs). KG scored 23 ppg on the Pistons (including a 33 point Game 5) the next season, 21+ ppg in the playoffs as a whole. Imagine how great prime TD and KG would be today... and I don't buy the theory that Tony Parker and Paul Pierce were more important to those teams ('07 Spurs and '08 Celtics).

^I agree wholeheartedly.

I just disagree with the opinion that there is a dearth of big man talent today.

Lets just put it this way. In the 80's DeMarcus Cousins would be averaging about 27ppg Imo
I think Nikola Pekovic would be pretty dominant also

[J Shuttlesworth]

OP, you realize that Kobe got his 2 FMVPs AFTER the rule change right? ****ing stern was rigging it for Kobe :facepalm

[CavaliersFTW]

OP, you realize that Kobe got his 2 FMVPs AFTER the rule change right? ****ing stern was rigging it for Kobe :facepalm
:roll: owned :applause:

[Round Mound]

:facepalm Then Why Is Crippled Duncan Still Dominating The Game At 38 Year Old? :rolleyes:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Lets just put it this way. In the 80's DeMarcus Cousins would be averaging about 27ppg Imo
I think Nikola Pekovic would be pretty dominant also

:oldlol: Can't even see it on an extremely shitty team that let him took a major amount of shots, also because that would lead to not efficient basketball and tons of TO's... You're gonna completely disregard the much better competition too? But yea keep talking about "modern/advanced" defenses, or that they weren't double-teamed back then :rolleyes:
Kareem didn't put up 27 ppg in the 80s and neither did Hakeem, Moses was only higher 2 times in his career, Ewing only put up more than 27 once, McHale's career high is 26 ppg, Daugherty never reached 22, Sampson never reached 21, Parish never reached 20...... Yet Boogie would come in and average 27 ppg :roll: Please keep the bold and ignorant opinons to yourself. I'll even let shit slide if you said terrible efficiency from the floor and lots of TO's, and even so...

Darryl Dawkins was a legit 6'11'', 260 lbs of mucle, an athletic freak capable of shit like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sYJ2ItXiRo
He was pretty skilled as well (bad man although he lacked killer insinct and was sort of a joker like Dwight) and even got to hit FT's at around 73%... His career high ppg is 16.8, in 30 min, never made no all-nba, never was regarded as much, never was very valuable.... Now I can also stand here and say he'd be similar to Dwight Howard nowadays (with better offense, slight less defense and worse rebounding), which would be much more plausible than what you've just said.

And while you talk about the rule changes and different style of game (which I'm not denying but not even remotely close to making that much of a difference on bigmen like you claim, and the "advanced/modern" defense stuff is just bullshit cliches), I can also stand here and say that today there are clearly more 3pt-specialists/threats, on average, and that helps to spread the floor much more, for post-players in this discussion, that's fact.. Also can talk about the defensive 3-seconds and restricted semi-circle.....

[Round Mound]

:oldlol: Can't even see it on an extremely shitty team that let him took a major amount of shots, also because that would lead to not efficient basketball and tons of TO's... You're gonna completely disregard the much better competition too? But yea keep talking about "modern/advanced" defenses, or that they weren't double-teamed back then :rolleyes:
Kareem didn't put up 27 ppg in the 80s and neither did Hakeem, Moses was only higher 2 times in his career, Ewing only put up more than 27 once, McHale's career high is 26 ppg, Daugherty never reached 22, Sampson never reached 21, Parish never reached 20...... Yet Boogie would come in and average 27 ppg :roll: Please keep the bold and ignorant opinons to yourself. I'll even let shit slide if you said terrible efficiency from the floor and lots of TO's, and even so...

Darryl Dawkins was a legit 6'11'', 260 lbs of mucle, an athletic freak capable of shit like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sYJ2ItXiRo
He was pretty skilled as well (bad man although he lacked killer insinct and was sort of a joker like Dwight) and even got to hit FT's at around 73%... His career high ppg is 16.8, in 30 min, never made no all-nba, never was regarded as much, never was very valuable.... Now I can also stand here and say he'd be similar to Dwight Howard nowadays (with better offense, slight less defense and worse rebounding), which would be much more plausible than what you've just said.

And while you talk about the rule changes and different style of game (which I'm not denying but not even remotely close to making that much of a difference on bigmen like you claim, and the "advanced/modern" defense stuff is just bullshit cliches), I can also stand here and say that today there are clearly more 3pt-specialists/threats, on average, and that helps to spread the floor much more, for post-players in this discussion, that's fact.. Also can talk about the defensive 3-seconds and restricted semi-circle.....


:applause:

[ArbitraryWater]

Why the **** is fpliii buying into griff's usual BULLSHIT he gets despised for? way too smart of a poster tbh

[fpliii]

Why the **** is fpliii buying into griff's usual BULLSHIT he gets despised for? way too smart of a poster tbh
Just trying to get him going. :pimp:

When griff's on a roll, these threads take off.

[Marchesk]

Just trying to get him going. :pimp:

When griff's on a roll, these threads take off.

Jeff, is that you?

[JUDGE WITNESS]

:oldlol: Can't even see it on an extremely shitty team that let him took a major amount of shots, also because that would lead to not efficient basketball and tons of TO's... You're gonna completely disregard the much better competition too? But yea keep talking about "modern/advanced" defenses, or that they weren't double-teamed back then :rolleyes:
Kareem didn't put up 27 ppg in the 80s and neither did Hakeem, Moses was only higher 2 times in his career, Ewing only put up more than 27 once, McHale's career high is 26 ppg, Daugherty never reached 22, Sampson never reached 21, Parish never reached 20...... Yet Boogie would come in and average 27 ppg :roll: Please keep the bold and ignorant opinons to yourself. I'll even let shit slide if you said terrible efficiency from the floor and lots of TO's, and even so...

Darryl Dawkins was a legit 6'11'', 260 lbs of mucle, an athletic freak capable of shit like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sYJ2ItXiRo
He was pretty skilled as well (bad man although he lacked killer insinct and was sort of a joker like Dwight) and even got to hit FT's at around 73%... His career high ppg is 16.8, in 30 min, never made no all-nba, never was regarded as much, never was very valuable.... Now I can also stand here and say he'd be similar to Dwight Howard nowadays (with better offense, slight less defense and worse rebounding), which would be much more plausible than what you've just said.

And while you talk about the rule changes and different style of game (which I'm not denying but not even remotely close to making that much of a difference on bigmen like you claim, and the "advanced/modern" defense stuff is just bullshit cliches), I can also stand here and say that today there are clearly more 3pt-specialists/threats, on average, and that helps to spread the floor much more, for post-players in this discussion, that's fact.. Also can talk about the defensive 3-seconds and restricted semi-circle.....

:bowdown:

[Dro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sYJ2ItXiRo

#1,#5,#7 :bowdown:
His head was rim level on #1...But, but, its the 80's!! There were no athletes back then!! whats that, like 40 years ago!!!:facepalm

[JellyBean]

Some where people like:

Moses Malone
Shaq
Wilt
Kareem
Bill Russell
Nate Thurmond
David Robinson
Dave Cowens
Hakeem

Are shaking their heads like really? We would dominate the league.

[Round Mound]

#1,#5,#7 :bowdown:
His head was rim level on #1...But, but, its the 80's!! There were no athletes back then!! whats that, like 40 years ago!!!:facepalm

:roll: :applause:

[Prometheus]

:oldlol: Can't even see it on an extremely shitty team that let him took a major amount of shots, also because that would lead to not efficient basketball and tons of TO's... You're gonna completely disregard the much better competition too? But yea keep talking about "modern/advanced" defenses, or that they weren't double-teamed back then :rolleyes:
Kareem didn't put up 27 ppg in the 80s and neither did Hakeem, Moses was only higher 2 times in his career, Ewing only put up more than 27 once, McHale's career high is 26 ppg, Daugherty never reached 22, Sampson never reached 21, Parish never reached 20...... Yet Boogie would come in and average 27 ppg :roll: Please keep the bold and ignorant opinons to yourself. I'll even let shit slide if you said terrible efficiency from the floor and lots of TO's, and even so...

Darryl Dawkins was a legit 6'11'', 260 lbs of mucle, an athletic freak capable of shit like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sYJ2ItXiRo
He was pretty skilled as well (bad man although he lacked killer insinct and was sort of a joker like Dwight) and even got to hit FT's at around 73%... His career high ppg is 16.8, in 30 min, never made no all-nba, never was regarded as much, never was very valuable.... Now I can also stand here and say he'd be similar to Dwight Howard nowadays (with better offense, slight less defense and worse rebounding), which would be much more plausible than what you've just said.

And while you talk about the rule changes and different style of game (which I'm not denying but not even remotely close to making that much of a difference on bigmen like you claim, and the "advanced/modern" defense stuff is just bullshit cliches), I can also stand here and say that today there are clearly more 3pt-specialists/threats, on average, and that helps to spread the floor much more, for post-players in this discussion, that's fact.. Also can talk about the defensive 3-seconds and restricted semi-circle.....


Hmm looks like someone I forgot to mention on that thread about best ISH posters :cheers:

[SHAQisGOAT]

#1,#5,#7 :bowdown:
His head was rim level on #1...But, but, its the 80's!! There were no athletes back then!! whats that, like 40 years ago!!!:facepalm

Chocolate Thunder was just a beast on them dunks. Yea, you can bet that if he played nowadays, people would be saying he'd be one of the best centers back in the day or something :rolleyes:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Hmm looks like someone I forgot to mention on that thread about best ISH posters :cheers:

:cheers:

[Round Mound]

Chocolate Thunder was just a beast on them dunks. Yea, you can bet that if he played nowadays, people would be saying he'd be one of the best centers back in the day or something :rolleyes:

:applause: Most kids today think just athletic ability alone = greatness :wtf:

[ralph_i_el]

:oldlol: Can't even see it on an extremely shitty team that let him took a major amount of shots, also because that would lead to not efficient basketball and tons of TO's... You're gonna completely disregard the much better competition too? But yea keep talking about "modern/advanced" defenses, or that they weren't double-teamed back then :rolleyes:
Kareem didn't put up 27 ppg in the 80s and neither did Hakeem, Moses was only higher 2 times in his career, Ewing only put up more than 27 once, McHale's career high is 26 ppg, Daugherty never reached 22, Sampson never reached 21, Parish never reached 20...... Yet Boogie would come in and average 27 ppg :roll: Please keep the bold and ignorant opinons to yourself. I'll even let shit slide if you said terrible efficiency from the floor and lots of TO's, and even so...

Darryl Dawkins was a legit 6'11'', 260 lbs of mucle, an athletic freak capable of shit like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sYJ2ItXiRo
He was pretty skilled as well (bad man although he lacked killer insinct and was sort of a joker like Dwight) and even got to hit FT's at around 73%... His career high ppg is 16.8, in 30 min, never made no all-nba, never was regarded as much, never was very valuable.... Now I can also stand here and say he'd be similar to Dwight Howard nowadays (with better offense, slight less defense and worse rebounding), which would be much more plausible than what you've just said.

And while you talk about the rule changes and different style of game (which I'm not denying but not even remotely close to making that much of a difference on bigmen like you claim, and the "advanced/modern" defense stuff is just bullshit cliches), I can also stand here and say that today there are clearly more 3pt-specialists/threats, on average, and that helps to spread the floor much more, for post-players in this discussion, that's fact.. Also can talk about the defensive 3-seconds and restricted semi-circle.....


Boogie is averaging 22.7 on 55% TS%, and nothing in that Dawkins vid would impress anyone who saw a highlight reel of HALF a Boogie season. Everyone knows they had great athletes back then but idk what point you thought you'd get across by posting a video of open dunks and putbacks. I brought up boogie because in my opinion he has the most pure talent of any big man in the league.

What happened to the dominant post up big man? Why aren't the Ewings and Hakeems dominating today? Who's to say that Boogie wouldn't look just like those guys if he played in their eras?

[Marchesk]

Why aren't the Ewings and Hakeems dominating today?

There are no Ewings and Hakeems. It's not like one of those guys comes out every other year in the draft. Hakeem is a top 10 all-time player. He would be great in any era. He'd be the first pick in every draft in this era. You think a Wiggins would be picked over a guy like Ewing or Hakeem coming out of college? MJ wasn't even picked 2nd in his draft. They're talking seriously about taking Embiid #1, and he's raw as hell and was hurt at the end of the season.

Meanwhile, Hakeem and Ewing were great college players. Now imagine if Kareem, Wilt or Walton were just coming out. There is nothing remotely like them in the college landscape since Shaq. And Shaq wasn't close to their level in college.

Anthony Davis is the closest thing to a great big that we've seen in a while.

[ralph_i_el]

There are no Ewings and Hakeems. It's not like one of those guys comes out every other year in the draft. Hakeem is a top 10 all-time player. He would be great in any era. He'd be the first pick in every draft in this era. You think a Wiggins would be picked over a guy like Ewing or Hakeem coming out of college? MJ wasn't even picked 2nd in his draft. They're talking seriously about taking Embiid #1, and he's raw as hell and was hurt at the end of the season.

Meanwhile, Hakeem and Ewing were great college players. Now imagine if Kareem, Wilt or Walton were just coming out. There is nothing remotely like them in the college landscape since Shaq. And Shaq wasn't close to their level in college.

Anthony Davis is the closest thing to a great big that we've seen in a while.

Embiid has better freshman stats than hakeem did (when hakeem was a redshirt freshman after practicing with the team for a year), after playing basketball for a shorter amount of time than hakeem had.

I'm the one arguing that bigs aren't worse today, they just play differently and a different set of conditions in the NBA is the reason for that.

[Marchesk]

This is just a dumb thread. KAJ out of college would be the first pick in just about any draft in NBA history, with the possible exception of ones having another GOAT big like Wilt.

KAJ in his rookie season would be a top 3 player in this current era. He would dominate the glass, protect the rim, pass out of double teams and average over 4 assists a game, and still be a very good scorer.

[BoutPractice]

They're talking seriously about taking Embiid #1, and he's raw as hell and was hurt at the end of the season.

Exactly. Everyone is crazy about Embiid (myself included) on the off chance he could be a poor man's Hakeem. That's the reality of the center position today compared to the 90s. It's better than in the 00s... increasingly you have both great scorers (Jefferson, Cousins...) and great defenders/all-around guys (Noah, Gasol...), but the two-way beast is a largely extinct animal. Dwight comes closest. Old man Duncan. AD if you consider him a center. That's about it, really.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Boogie is averaging 22.7 on 55% TS%, and nothing in that Dawkins vid would impress anyone who saw a highlight reel of HALF a Boogie season. Everyone knows they had great athletes back then but idk what point you thought you'd get across by posting a video of open dunks and putbacks. I brought up boogie because in my opinion he has the most pure talent of any big man in the league.

What happened to the dominant post up big man? Why aren't the Ewings and Hakeems dominating today? Who's to say that Boogie wouldn't look just like those guys if he played in their eras?

:facepalm Completely missing the point, just like expected... Most people here got it though. I was making a comparison between Dwight and Dawkins, going overboard (to mimic you) and basically saying Dwight would/could be just "another" Darryl Dawkins in the 80s, which is even more plausible than what you've been saying.. Just posted the video to show how much of an athletic freak he was, plus taller than Dwight and he had skill down-low (of course, you wouldn't even know nothing about that), could hit his FT's at a higher rate too. Nothing in that vid would impress anyone who saw a highlight reel of half a Boogie season??? WTF does that even mean, what does it bring to this discussion? :banghead: You didn't even reply to half of my post and the only answer was just an ignorant one while completely missing the point :facepalm
Let me state some examples again:

Kareem didn't put up 27 ppg in the 80s and neither did Hakeem, Moses was only higher 2 times in his career, Ewing only put up more than 27 once, McHale's career high is 26 ppg, Daugherty never reached 22, Sampson never reached 21, Parish never reached 20......
And yet your ignorant-ass thinks Boogie would be averaging 27 ppg???? :roll: Stop doing crack, son. Again, if you said on a really shitty team while on poor efficiency and with a bunch of TO's, it would make it better, not necessarily true by any means though. DeMarcus is pretty skilled down-low, he can hit jumpers, solid FT shooter that can get to the line, solid athlete... But he's not even 6'10'' w/o shoes, his post-game is not even close to all-time good/great, his mentality messes with his game many times, he doesn't have enough basketball IQ, he's a below average passer at the position... Seriously, I probably wouldn't even take him over ANY of those guys I've just mentioned, and most of those guys, if not all, would be doing a better job offensively in Cousins' shoes.

What happened to the dominant post-up bigman? Most of them are developing guard's skills why they're younger lol, so on.. Why aren't the Ewings and Hakeems dominating today? Well, because there are no Ewings, Hakeems and so on :rolleyes: :lol Who's to say that Boogie wouldn't look like those guys if he played in their era? Well, people that have actually seen enough from them, people that actually know their shit and know what they're talking about, unlike you.

Tell me what's the big difference? Is it the rules, the difference in style of play? :oldlol: Again, that's not nearly enough to make a considerable difference on bigmen. Are you gonna start with that "advanced/modern" defenses bullshit again? Yea nobody even tried to stop those guys back in the day :rolleyes: How about the fact that there are more 3pt-specialists/threats, on average, nowadays to space the floor better? Defensive 3 seconds and restricted semi-circle also plays a role in the finishing at the rim department...

[DonDadda59]

What happened to the dominant post up big man? Why aren't the Ewings and Hakeems dominating today? Who's to say that Boogie wouldn't look just like those guys if he played in their eras?

What? :oldlol:

You really think there are guys of the talent level of Hakeem or Ewing in the league right now? This is some low level trolling here.

Roy Hibbert was an all star this season and the Ghost of Tim Duncan was a miracle shot from Jesus himself away from winning finals MVP last summer. That should tell you all you need to know about the state of bigs today.

But yeah, there's Hakeem and Ewing level players lurking in the shadows being held back for some inexplicable reason :oldlol:




:facepalm

[CavaliersFTW]

What? :oldlol:

You really think there are guys of the talent level of Hakeem or Ewing in the league right now? This is some low level trolling here.

Roy Hibbert was an all star this season and the Ghost of Tim Duncan was a miracle shot from Jesus himself away from winning finals MVP last summer. That should tell you all you need to know about the state of bigs today.

But yeah, there's Hakeem and Ewing level players lurking in the shadows being held back for some inexplicable reason :oldlol:




:facepalm
:applause:

[ralph_i_el]

So the NBA has had these dominant centers for its whole history, usually more than one at a time. This is a fact we can all accept.

Now, you all don't consider Dwight worthy of comparison to these guys, and that's fine. I'm not a Dwight fan I don't give a ****.

However, if this is true, that means that there hasn't been a dominant center drafted since Tim Duncan in 1997 and Shaq in 1992.

I just refuse to believe that none of the center prospects drafted since then have had the ability to dominate on a historic scale, and draw real comparisons to the great bigs of yesteryear. I think that changes to how the game is played on both sides of the ball have "held back" some talented C's who don't get a lot of love because their statlines don't compare to older HoF centers.


The way defense is played has changed a ton (since 2007/2008 especially) and if you don't acknowledge that you must not watch todays games. I don't care how that applies to this argument, take it however you'd like, but it's a fact.

[dr.hee]

I just refuse to believe that none of the center prospects drafted since then have had the ability to dominate on a historic scale, and draw real comparisons to the great bigs of yesteryear.

Oh I agree. Jamaal Magloire would've been an All-Star in every era. Just like Brad Miller, Mehmet Okur and Zydrunas Ilgauskas. :applause:

[Rocketswin2013]

Well, Hakeem played like a PF. He really didn't put his back to the basket as much as people assume. By all means he would crush this era just the same. And that really goes for all those centers. The only guy who'd have a little trouble is Shaq and honestly, if he were playing on the Lakers the refs wouldn't even give him that big of an issue.



The rules have changed but let's not act like these players weren't great.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Quit calling Demarcus Cousins "boggie". You sound like a freaking idiot..

Really though, the fact you think minor rule changes are THE indictment of big-men...is ridiculous. Acting like theres a big difference in the way defenses are played (ie. post 2008) when Kobe had one of his best scoring seasons...last year. :oldlol:

[ralph_i_el]

Quit calling Demarcus Cousins "boggie". You sound like a freaking idiot..

Really though, the fact you think minor rule changes are THE indictment of big-men...is ridiculous. Acting like there is a big difference in the way defenses are played (ie. post 2008) when Kobe had one of his best scoring seasons...last year. :oldlol:

1. Boogie is his nickname and it's easier to type.
2. Who the **** was talking about Kobe?
3. D has changed. If you didn't notice you weren't watching. I don't know what to tell you. Read this i guess http://grantland.com/features/packing-paint-nba-defensive-strategy-forcing-coaches-rethink-their-offense/ it's a decent primer
^The % of shots from post ups and iso has decreased every season since 2008.

[DonDadda59]

So the NBA has had these dominant centers for its whole history, usually more than one at a time. This is a fact we can all accept.

Yes and there's been an ebb and flow in terms of overall talent throught NBA History. Some eras had more of a collection of great bigs than others (ie, 90s>70s>80s>00s>>10s) All of the C prospects who had a chance to be great are all either suffering career-ending/threatening injuries (Oden, Bynum, possibly Davis now) or trying to do their best Allen Iverson impersonation instead of learning how to play big.


Now, you all don't consider Dwight worthy of comparison to these guys, and that's fine. I'm not a Dwight fan I don't give a ****.

However, if this is true, that means that there hasn't been a dominant center drafted since Tim Duncan in 1997 and Shaq in 1992.

Go ahead and name the draft prospects since '97 who were as skilled, dominant, game-changing as Duncan or Shaq. There's a reason why 17 years after he was drafted (and being way past his prime), Tim was still a first team All NBA player, led his team to the finals, and this year is the anchor of the best team in the league. If there have been prospects as good as him in all the time since he was drafted, why is he still king of the hill despite being a shadow of his best self? Why haven't all these undercover Hakeems done what he's doing at 36+?


I just refuse to believe that none of the center prospects drafted since then have had the ability to dominate on a historic scale, and draw real comparisons to the great bigs of yesteryear. I think that changes to how the game is played on both sides of the ball have "held back" some talented C's who don't get a lot of love because their statlines don't compare to older HoF centers.

Luckily, the world and reality don't run on what you believe. Go ahead and name the guys drafted since Tim who had the 'ability to dominate on a historic scale'. People assumed it was going to be Oden. Bust. Then Bynum played well for a couple of seasons. Bust.

Why are these undercover Hakeems and Ewings being 'held back' while an undersized C with average athleticism like Big Al Jefferson is getting his no problem while playing like a traditional center?

The Heat won a championship with Chris Bosh as their starting center for f*cks sake :oldlol:


The way defense is played has changed a ton (since 2007/2008 especially) and if you don't acknowledge that you must not watch todays games. I don't care how that applies to this argument, take it however you'd like, but it's a fact.

Tell me specifically, how the game has changed defensively since 2007/2008 in a way that's holding back the Hakeems and Ewings in the league but garnering all star consideration for Roy f*cking Hibbert and all NBA team nods for the Ghost of Tim Duncan.

I want specifics backed up by actual evidence, not nonsensical hyperbole and utter bullshit as your lot is known to spew.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

1. Boogie is his nickname and it's easier to type.
2. Who the **** was talking about Kobe?
3. D has changed. If you didn't notice you weren't watching. I don't know what to tell you. Read this i guess http://grantland.com/features/packing-paint-nba-defensive-strategy-forcing-coaches-rethink-their-offense/ it's a decent primer
4. The % of shots from post ups and iso has decreased every season since 2008.

I was talking about Kobe.. Problem? Explain how he isn't relevant to your "post 2008" bullshit :oldlol:

Nobodies saying D hasn't changed.. What people ARE saying is, the shifts aren't enough to contain all-time greats. Without hanchecking, I dont know how guys are expected to 'hinder' another dudes production, or that it actually makes them worse.. GTFO :roll:

Kobe post 2008 (2013 to be exact) talking about 'weak defenses'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF_L6w2A1r0

Joe Johnson post 2008 (2012 to be exact) claimed MJ would be even BETTER in todays game. Why? Because he said there is NO handchecking..

Unlike you, these guys dont have an agenda..

[ralph_i_el]

Yes and there's been an ebb and flow in terms of overall talent. All of the C prospects who had a chance to be great are all either suffering career-ending/threatening injuries (Oden, Bynum, possibly Davis now) or trying to do their best Allen Iverson impersonation instead of learning how to play big.

.

Go ahead and name the draft prospects since '97 who were as skilled, dominant, game-changing as Duncan or Shaq. There's a reason why 17 years after he was drafted (and being way past his prime), Tim was still a first team All NBA player, led his team to the finals, and this year is the anchor of the best team in the league. If there have been prospects as good as him in all the time since he was drafted, why is he still king of the hill despite being a shadow of his best self? Why haven't all these undercover Hakeems done what he's doing at 36+?



Luckily, the world and reality don't run on what you believe. Go ahead and name the guys drafted since Tim who had the 'ability to dominate on a historic scale'. People assumed it was going to be Oden. Bust. Then Bynum played well for a couple of seasons. Bust.

Why are these undercover Hakeems and Ewings being 'held back' while an undersized C with average athleticism like Big Al Jefferson is getting his no problem while playing like a traditional center?

The Heat won a championship with Chris Bosh as their starting center for f*cks sake :oldlol:



Tell me specifically, how the game has changed defensively since 2007/2008 in a way that's holding back the Hakeems and Ewings in the league but garnering all star consideration for Roy f*cking Hibbert and all NBA team nods for the Ghost of Tim Duncan.

I want specifics backed up by actual evidence, not nonsensical hyperbole and utter bullshit as your lot is known to spew.

1. Timmy is a freak and his per-minute numbers haven't really dropped since he came into the league. <3 timmy

2. Oden's knees died, Bynum's knees died, Cousins is going to be a HoFer, Yao's feet died, KG is a part time 5, Pau is the man, Tyson Chandler had huge potential, Amare's knees died, Bosh pussied out and became a 3rd option, Dwight, Emeka could have been really good, Bogut had an exploding elbow, Al Horford is a beast, Joakim is a stud.

Hibbert is valuable because he stops people from getting buckets at the rim. He's the best at what he does, and what he does is extremely valuable especially today. He obviously is a bum on offense unless he's getting it in the post on 4's. From what I've seen his rebounding numbers are low because he's got lots of good rebounders around him and he's not chasing the ball as often as he's boxing out 1 or even 2 guys.


"Big Al Jefferson is getting his" nah I don't think so. He's putting up below average efficiency as the centerpiece of his teams O. He'd be decent if they spread the floor better, I'll give you that. Bobcats are winning because they play balls out hard on D. If they didn't, Al would be putting up the same numbers but they'd have 25 wins and no one would care about him.

Nowadays since you can play off your man without getting illegal D calls, players try to stunt into the paint for as long as possible when they aren't threatened by their man shooting the spot up jumper.
^This does a few things:
1. Guys who shoot 3's are more valuable because you can't safely help off of them
2. Defenses have an easier time putting help in the paint

I'd love to keep writing for an hour but there are plenty of professionals who have written about this stuff and they're only a google away.

Small changes to the competitive environment can have big influences on how we view players, how teams value players, and what strategies are successful. Even if you have a pretty good post up player on your team today, you don't want him spending all game in the paint clogging it up for your drivers. Teams don't want to play 2 traditional bigs at the same time because it just doesn't work anymore with today's rules. Just look who they have playing the 4 next to Al Jefferson!! McBob shoots 3's and works the floor with his passing from the elbow.

Also instead of finishing in the post, "traditional" guys like Marc Gasol use post ups to initiate the offense, draw doubles, and create 3 point opportunities more often.
Basically the NBA is going towards a point where if you want to run a good offense, you need at 4 people who can shoot out to the 3 point line or at least 20 feet. There's less room for the traditional big man.



I was talking about Kobe.. Problem? Explain how he isn't relevant to your "post 2008" bullshit :oldlol:

Nobodies saying D hasn't changed.. What people ARE saying is, the shifts aren't enough to contain all-time greats. Without hanchecking, I dont know how guys are expected to 'hinder' another dudes production, or that it actually makes them worse.. GTFO :roll:

Kobe post 2008 (2013 to be exact) talking about 'weak defenses'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF_L6w2A1r0

Joe Johnson post 2008 (2012 to be exact) claimed MJ would be even BETTER in todays game. Why? Because he said there is NO handchecking..

Unlike you, these guys dont have an agenda..
If you want to suck kobe's dick then do it in a thread about guards not bigs. What exactly is my "agenda"? If anything Kobe has the agenda, he seems obsessed with his legacy. Almost as obsessed as you nutriders. I literally watched 2:30 minutes of kobe smalltalking with ****ing floyd mayweather just to hear him say "you can't even touch a mutha****a" jesus christ where did you find this brilliant proof :applause: ?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

If you want to suck kobe's dick then do it in a thread about guards not bigs. What exactly is my "agenda"? If anything Kobe has the agenda, he seems obsessed with his legacy. Almost as obsessed as you nutriders.

Get your mind out of the gutter, and answer the question(s). Kobe IS relevant to your so-called "2008 and on" rule-changes.. So why are he and JJ saying defenses are weaker in todays game??

How would "boogie" be a 27ppg scorer, in any era, when his in-game IQ is around the number of posts you have in this thread?

[kennethgriffin]

how is this a 1 star thread

you all seem to be enjoying arguing with yourselves over hypotheticals

just the fact thats its went this long shows i have a valid argument

[ralph_i_el]

Get your mind out of the gutter, and answer the question(s). Kobe IS relevant to your so-called "2008 and on" rule-changes.. So why are he and JJ saying defenses are weaker in todays game?

How would "boogie" be a 27ppg scorer, when the guys in-game IQ is around the number of posts you have in this thread?

He's 23 and he's shown huge improvement every season and he's already putting up a pretty monster line. IQ and attitude are different. 25/13 per 36 at age 23

Kobe said 1 sentence about D in that video and it was that you "can't touch a motha****a" which is cool, because it's true they did remove handchecks. HOWEVER, they don't really call handchecks in the post. Just another way the rules benefit perimeter players now instead of post players :confusedshrug: (Yeah I know Kobe is a great post player too)

[DonDadda59]

1. Timmy is a freak and his per-minute numbers haven't really dropped since he came into the league. <3 timmy

AKA he's still doing what he was doing before despite the perimeter rule changes. At age 37. Go figure


2. Oden's knees died, Bynum's knees died, Cousins is going to be a HoFer, Yao's feet died, KG is a part time 5, Pau is the man, Tyson Chandler had huge potential, Amare's knees died, Bosh pussied out and became a 3rd option, Dwight, Emeka could have been really good, Bogut had an exploding elbow, Al Horford is a beast, Joakim is a stud.

AKA you couldn't name a single player drafted since Tim in '97 who had the same ability, impact, etc as him or Shaq. But you keep talking about how there's Hakeems and Ewings in the league being held back somehow.

Tyson Chandler, Al Horford :oldlol:


Hibbert is valuable because he stops people from getting buckets at the rim. He's the best at what he does, and what he does is extremely valuable especially today. He obviously is a bum on offense unless he's getting it in the post on 4's. From what I've seen his rebounding numbers are low because he's got lots of good rebounders around him and he's not chasing the ball as often as he's boxing out 1 or even 2 guys.

Dude's a 7'2" Center who averages a handful of rebounds a game and when not playing the Heat, averages a handful of points. But he's an all star in today's league.



"Big Al Jefferson is getting his" nah I don't think so.

:rolleyes:

On the season: 22/11(51% FG)

In March (Name EC player of the month): 25/11 (56% FG)

So far in April: 27/14

Stop it.


Nowadays since you can play off your man without getting illegal D calls, players try to stunt into the paint for as long as possible

So 3 seconds :oldlol:


^This does a few things:
1. Guys who shoot 3's are more valuable because you can't safely help off of them
2. Defenses have an easier time putting help in the paint

I'd love to keep writing for an hour but there are plenty of professionals who have written about this stuff and they're only a google away.



Big Al on the defenses he faces (from RufusPaul's thread on the front page):

"I'll tell you, (Houston Rockets coach) Kevin McHale let me know that it was OK to still play old-school," he said. "I'm one of the few guys—me, DeMarcus Cousins, Tim Duncan—that play with their back to the basket. And to be honest with you, because the league has changed so much, I think that's why sometimes it's so hard to guard me. People don't know how to defend that no more. People don't play like that no more, so I'm glad that I'm one of the three guys that's very unique in this league and have the old-school game. We'll be around a little longer."

So I ask again... why is Al Jefferson, an undersized and athletically average center, having no issues getting his while these unnamed Olajuwon and Ewing caliber players in the league today are being 'held back' as you so ridiculously claimed?

[Rose'sACL]

ralph_i_el is putting some very good arguments while others are just saying stuff like "lol....bigs are offensively not great now so every past great will own the league" while completely ignoring the fact that there are very good big defenders in the league. Why do people on this forum act like rules don't influence how players learn to play when they are young? Having a mid range jumper is very important for any big man these days to average close to 25ppg. Shaq would definitely have trouble averaging 30ppg now. he would get called for offensive fouls a lot more now. Hakeem would have to score more from his jumpers and kareem would gave to use his hook a lot more. Any big who scored most of his point by banging in the post would have trouble scoring 25ppg or more in current league.

[ralph_i_el]

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]AKA he's still doing what he was doing before despite the perimeter rule changes. At age 37. Go figure



AKA you couldn't name a single player drafted since Tim in '97 who had the same ability, impact, etc as him or Shaq. But you keep talking about how there's Hakeems and Ewings in the league being held back somehow.

Tyson Chandler, Al Horford :oldlol:



Dude's a 7'2" Center who averages a handful of rebounds a game and when not playing the Heat, averages a handful of points. But he's an all star in today's league.




:rolleyes:

On the season: 22/11(51% FG)

In March (Name EC player of the month): 25/11 (56% FG)

So far in April: 27/14

Stop it.



So 3 seconds :oldlol:



Big Al on the defenses he faces (from RufusPaul's thread on the front page):

"I'll tell you, (Houston Rockets coach) Kevin McHale let me know that it was OK to still play old-school," he said. [B]"I'm one of the few guys

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He's 23 and he's shown huge improvement every season and he's already putting up a pretty monster line. IQ and attitude are different. 25/13 per 36 at age 23

Averaging 22 a night isn't 27ppg.. :oldlol:


Kobe said 1 sentence about D in that video and it was that you "can't touch a motha****a" which is cool, because it's true they did remove handchecks. HOWEVER, they don't really call handchecks in the post. Just another way the rules benefit perimeter players now instead of post players :confusedshrug: (Yeah I know Kobe is a great post player too)

More than "cool".. Its a pretty big deal. When you're not able to body-up and use your hands, this gives your opponent a discernible advantage..

What Joe Johnson said was 100% spot-on.

[DonDadda59]

ralph_i_el is putting some very good arguments while others are just saying stuff like "lol....bigs are offensively not great now so every past great will own the league" while completely ignoring the fact that there are very good big defenders in the league. Why do people on this forum act like rules don't influence how players learn to play when they are young? Having a mid range jumper is very important for any big man these days to average close to 25ppg. Shaq would definitely have trouble averaging 30ppg now. he would get called for offensive fouls a lot more now. Hakeem would have to score more from his jumpers and kareem would gave to use his hook a lot more. Any big who scored most of his point by banging in the post would have trouble scoring 25ppg or more in current league.

Big Al dropping 34 on All star Roy Hibbert and the #1 ranked Defense of the Pacers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpJ1bpOJ9Qg

Look at all those 3s he's forced to take, all that 'stunting' in the paint that makes it impossible to score from the post :(

But yeah, Shaq, Hakeem, and Olajuwon wouldn't be able to do what Al Jefferson is doing this season.

You people are smoking some high end shit. :applause:



1. It's 3 seconds...then you step out to your man and it resets. You can spend almost the entire shot clock in the paint

2. You answered your own question. No one plays like Jefferson anymore so no one learns how to defend him.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...rder_by=ts_pct
^This is a list of all the players who started at least 40 games this season and had a Usage% of 25 or higher (20% is the average usg% because it measures the % of your teams possessions that you finish via shot or turnover) Al jefferson has the 21ST HIGHEST TS% OF THOSE PLAYERS. That really is not good.

3. Don't hate on Al Horford I'd take him over Al Jefferson in a second
ralph_i_el is online now Report Bad Post

1) Bullshit.

2) Which is the point- few players utilize the old school back to the basket style but the ones who do (Jefferson, the Ghost of Tim Duncan, Cousins) have no problem getting buckets and defenses are powerless against them. So now... again... why would better, more dominant players (Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Kareem, etc) who utilize that playing style not absolutely crush the league?

And why would you disregard FG% for a center in favor of TS? Doesn't the latter take into account 3 point shooting and FT%? What the hell does that have to do with a guy's ability to score from the post like Big Al? He's shooting 51% from the field this season, shot 56% last month playing like a real Center.

3) Let's hope you never become an NBA GM.

[ralph_i_el]

Averaging 22 a night isn't 27ppg.. :oldlol:



More than "cool".. Its a pretty big deal. When you're not able to body-up and use your hands, this gives your opponent a discernible advantage..

What Joe Johnson said was 100% spot-on.

Yeah, and today isn't the 70's or 80's. Teams play slower today, teams post up less, it's easier to defend post ups, AND STILL DEMARCUS COUSINS IS AVERAGING A HIGHER PPG IN LESS MINUTES THAN EWING DID AT AGE 23 AND EWING WENT ON TO AVERAGE 28PPG IN 82 STARTS IN 89-90.

That's why I think he could average 27ppg.

Also I didn't see a JJ link :confusedshrug: so **** off



Big Al dropping 34 on All star Roy Hibbert and the #1 ranked Defense of the Pacers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpJ1bpOJ9Qg

Look at all those 3s he's forced to take, all that 'stunting' in the paint that makes it impossible to score from the post :(

But yeah, Shaq, Hakeem, and Olajuwon wouldn't be able to do what Al Jefferson is doing this season.

You people are smoking some high end shit. :applause:




1) Bullshit.

2) Which is the point- few players utilize the old school back to the basket style but the ones who do (Jefferson, the Ghost of Tim Duncan, Cousins) have no problem getting buckets and defenses are powerless against them. So now... again... why would better, more dominant players (Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Kareem, etc) who utilize that playing style not absolutely crush the league?

And why would you disregard FG% for a center in favor of TS? Doesn't the latter take into account 3 point shooting and FT%? What the hell does that have to do with a guy's ability to score from the post like Big Al? He's shooting 51% from the field this season, shot 56% last month playing like a real Center.

3) Let's hope you never become an NBA GM.

And two weeks before he went 2-13 against Marc Gasol:confusedshrug: one game is one game.

1. Rule 10, Section VII Defensive Three-Second, part d: "The defensive three-second count is suspended when: (1) a player is in the act of shooting, (2) there is a loss of team control, (3) the defender is actively guarding an opponent, (4) the defender completely clears the 16-foot lane or (5) it is imminent the defender will become legal."
^actual ****ing rule. you are wrong. Once you leave the lane the 3 second count resets.

2. If more players used the old school style more teams and players would be focusing on preventing it. Al Jefferson benefits because teams aren't worrying about post up guys every day, just against a few teams.

3. Lets hope I do. I guarantee I watch more ball and care more than Ernie Grunfeld. Plus I have a finance degree so hopefully I have an advantage in terms of asset (player) valuation.

[Rose'sACL]

Big Al dropping 34 on All star Roy Hibbert and the #1 ranked Defense of the Pacers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpJ1bpOJ9Qg

Look at all those 3s he's forced to take, all that 'stunting' in the paint that makes it impossible to score from the post :(

But yeah, Shaq, Hakeem, and Olajuwon wouldn't be able to do what Al Jefferson is doing this season.

You people are smoking some high end shit. :applause:
Shaq wouldn't unless refs let him commit offensive fouls. He could average 25 instead of 30 and get more assists but his scoring would come down in the playoffs.

[DonDadda59]

Shaq wouldn't unless refs let him commit offensive fouls. He could average 25 instead of 30 and get more assists but his scoring would come down in the playoffs.

Please stop :facepalm

Prime Shaq would absolutely shit on the league and their all star caliber centers like Roy Hibbert. It's not like the guy was just barreling into people and getting his buckets that way. The man had great footwork and quickness for his size and an array of moves (had a great turn around hook as his go to).

Here is game 1 from the 2000 finals where his primary defender was the 7'4" Rik Smits:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kM2OdZPVaw

Notice how many doubles/triples are thrown his way and how he maneuvers around them. Then tell me how a guy and #1 ranked D that got roasted by Big Al Jefferson is going to stop him from getting a minimum 35 in a series :biggums:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yeah, and today isn't the 70's or 80's. Teams play slower today, teams post up less, it's easier to defend post ups, AND STILL DEMARCUS COUSINS IS AVERAGING A HIGHER PPG IN LESS MINUTES THAN EWING DID AT AGE 23 AND EWING WENT ON TO AVERAGE 28PPG IN 82 STARTS IN 89-90.

So what you're saying is, Demarcus Cousins, an inferior talent to Patrick Ewing, is averaging more points in less minutes...in a tougher defensive era? Good one... :oldlol:


Also I didn't see a JJ link :confusedshrug: so **** off

Full quote and link below:


"It benefits me," said Joe Johnson, one of three players (Mike Bibby and Jamal Crawford are the others) on the Hawks' roster who have averaged 20 or more points in a season. "It definitely changes the game because it gives every guy that extra step. "If we could hand check now, the game would be totally different," Johnson said. "If they couldn't hand check back in the day, there are some guys that would have been even better than they were. It would have been nuts for some of the big-time scorers and perimeter players from the 1980s and 1990s. Can you imagine what [Michael] Jordan would have done in a league where you couldn't hand check."
http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/basketball/nbas-new-rule-paves-way-for-two-steps/nQYbc/

Read and weep clown...

[ralph_i_el]

So what you're saying is, Demarcus Cousins, an inferior talent to Patrick Ewing, is averaging more points in less minutes...in a tougher defensive era? Good one... :oldlol:



Full quote and link below:


http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/basketball/nbas-new-rule-paves-way-for-two-steps/nQYbc/

Read and weep clown...
I am not agreeing that Cousins is an inferior talent. If he magically came up in the 80's instead of today you'd be bringing him up alongside all these other guys.

That's fine with the JJ quote. If it benefits all those perimeter guys (which I agree with. Steve Nash would never have sniffed an mvp before the rule change.) then it makes post play less valuable. If perimeter scoring gets marginally better, it becomes that much more valuable than post scoring doesn't it? And less teams would be looking for post scorers or running offenses designed around post scoring.

So in THIS thread, it would appear like you're arguing FOR me?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I am not agreeing that Cousins is an inferior talent. If he magically came up in the 80's instead of today you'd be bringing him up alongside all these other guys.

You never watched Ewing... No sweat..


That's fine with the JJ quote. If it benefits all those perimeter guys

Don't forget post guys too. I'm glad you agree - handchecking DOES make a considerable difference. :cheers:

[ralph_i_el]

You never watched Ewing... No sweat..



Don't forget post guys too. I'm glad you agree - handchecking DOES make a considerable difference. :cheers:

Wasn't old enough then but I've watched enough NBATV throwback games and classic playoff games on the internet that I think I have a good enough feel for his game. I've probably watched Hibbert more than you've watched Ewing lol

I've made my points there's no use in arguing anymore.

[DonDadda59]

1. Rule 10, Section VII Defensive Three-Second, part d: "The defensive three-second count is suspended when: (1) a player is in the act of shooting, (2) there is a loss of team control, (3) the defender is actively guarding an opponent, (4) the defender completely clears the 16-foot lane or (5) it is imminent the defender will become legal."
^actual ****ing rule. you are wrong. Once you leave the lane the 3 second count resets.

How was I wrong? If a guy isn't guarding someone, he can only be in the paint for 3 seconds before having to run out or he gets whistled for an illegal D call and the other team shoots a technical FT. So you can 'stunt' in the paint for 3 seconds max. Tell me where I'm wrong exactly.


2. If more players used the old school style more teams and players would be focusing on preventing it. Al Jefferson benefits because teams aren't worrying about post up guys every day, just against a few teams.

:rolleyes:

Your 'argument' in this thread was that the rule changes in 2007/2008 (again, showing you have no clue what the hell you're talking about) was 'holding back' the Hakeems and Ewings in the league. I showed you how incredibly stupid that was and even provided you a quote of a guy who plays like a traditional center talking about how defenses can't deal with what he's doing.

Of course now you're trying to 'argue' teams aren't worried about post up guys so that's why he's putting up his #s as well as Duncan, Cousins, etc.

I mean which is it? Are Olajuwon/Ewing caliber players being held back by defenses or are defenses letting them run wild because they can't be bothered to stop them? :confusedshrug:

You're talking in circles because you have absolutely no argument.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Wasn't old enough then

I figured as much.

[ralph_i_el]

How was I wrong? If a guy isn't guarding someone, he can only be in the paint for 3 seconds before having to run out or he gets whistled for an illegal D call and the other team shoots a technical FT. So you can 'stunt' in the paint for 3 seconds max. Tell me where I'm wrong exactly.



:rolleyes:

Your 'argument' in this thread was that the rule changes in 2007/2008 (again, showing you have no clue what the hell you're talking about) was 'holding back' the Hakeems and Ewings in the league. I showed you how incredibly stupid that was and even provided you a quote of a guy who plays like a traditional center talking about how defenses can't deal with what he's doing.

Of course now you're trying to 'argue' teams aren't worried about post up guys so that's why he's putting up his #s as well as Duncan, Cousins, etc.

I mean which is it? Are Olajuwon/Ewing caliber players being held back by defenses or are defenses letting them run wild because they can't be bothered to stop them? :confusedshrug:

You're talking in circles because you have absolutely no argument.

1. You're in the paint for 2.9, then you step out and it resets, then you step in for another 2.9 ect...
There is nothing to stop you from spending most of your time defending the paint even if your man never goes into the paint once. You didn't used to be able to do that. Don Nelson used to have his centers just stand around 30ft away so the other team couldn't have their center defend the paint.

2. I never said the rules were changed in 2007/08. The turning point for the changes in D style was when the celtics won in 07-08 with Thibs running his D which took full advantage of the new rules from 2001. It's a copycat league and guys got to copying.

you think I'm talking circles because you have no comprehension skills.

Al Jefferson is exploiting an inefficiency. Traditional big man play is not as effective anymore, therefore teams don't try to run offenses through the post. Therefore defenses don't prepare as much to defend teams that break down the D with traditional post-up big man play. However, since the bobcats have no better option on how to run an offense, they run it through Jefferson in the post and he does OK because teams aren't fully ready for it. He's the best option in a bad offense, and a volume scorer who isn't a great passer.

Tim Duncan is putting up the numbers like he does because he has the best feel for basketball I've ever seen and the best coach of this millennium. Boogie Cousins is just a freak talent.

[DonDadda59]

1. You're in the paint for 2.9, then you step out and it resets, then you step in for another 2.9 ect...
There is nothing to stop you from spending most of your time defending the paint even if your man never goes into the paint once. You didn't used to be able to do that. Don Nelson used to have his centers just stand around 30ft away so the other team couldn't have their center defend the paint.

Meaning, as I said, the maximum amount of time a player can 'stunt' in the paint is 3 seconds before he's called for an illegal D violation and the opposing team gets a technical free throw and possession. What are you even trying to argue here? :confusedshrug:


2. I never said the rules were changed in 2007/08. The turning point for the changes in D style was when the celtics won in 07-08 with Thibs running his D which took full advantage of the new rules from 2001.

And in your estimation, what Thibs defensive strategies were aimed towards taking away the traditional post up causing the Ewings and Hakeems of the league today to go into hiding? Tell me specifically what his defensive strategies did to accomplish this.


you think I'm talking circles because you have no comprehension skills.


You in the beginning of the thread

"They literally have changed the rules multiple times to make post up play less effective."

"Plenty of bigs who don't look great on O now would look a ton better back in the day"

"Lets just put it this way. In the 80's DeMarcus Cousins would be averaging about 27ppg Imo. I think Nikola Pekovic would be pretty dominant also"

"What happened to the dominant post up big man? Why aren't the Ewings and Hakeems dominating today? Who's to say that Boogie wouldn't look just like those guys if he played in their eras?"

"I think that changes to how the game is played on both sides of the ball have "held back" some talented C's who don't get a lot of love because their statlines don't compare to older HoF centers."

You after I posted the quote from Jefferson about how Defenses play traditional post up Cs today

2. If more players used the old school style more teams and players would be focusing on preventing it. Al Jefferson benefits because teams aren't worrying about post up guys every day, just against a few teams.

So yeah, 'reading comprehension' aside... your argument at first was that defenses prevent traditional big men from putting up numbers, then as soon as I show you a traditional big man putting up numbers your argument changes to 'oh, defenses can't stop him because they're not worried about traditional big men putting up numbers from the post' :rolleyes:

Again... you're talking in circles and contradicting yourself because you have no argument.




Al Jefferson is exploiting a market inefficiency. Traditional big man play is not as effective anymore, therefore teams don't try to run offenses through the post. Therefore defenses don't prepare as much to defend teams that break down the D with traditional post-up big man play. However, since the bobcats have no better option on how to run an offense, they run it through Jefferson in the post and he does OK because teams aren't fully ready for it. He's the best option in a bad offense, and a volume scorer who isn't a great passer.

Tim Duncan is putting up the numbers like he does because he has the best feel for basketball I've ever seen and the best coach of this millennium. Boogie Cousins is just a freak talent.

Do you realize how much of a fool you're making yourself out to be? In one breath you say the traditional big man style of play isn't effective any more, then in the next talk about how a playoff team (43 wins this season, 21 last season) runs their offense through a traditional big man :oldlol:

Again, you keep backing yourself into a corner because you're talking in circles about something you clearly know nothing about.

But if you want to keep thinking that there are Hakeem Olajuwon or Patrick Ewing caliber players being 'held back' by the same defenses that allow Al Jefferson and the ghost of Tim Duncan to flourish, hey... go nuts. :cheers:

[ralph_i_el]

-Thibs popularized a defense that specializes in using the new rules to take away the paint

-Most traditional big men spend a decent amount of their time trying to score in the paint correct?

-allowing more defenders in the paint for longer=bad for people trying to score in the paint


The bobcats aren't winning because Al Jefferson is tearing up the league in the post. They're winning because of great team defense. Al Jefferson is giving them an option that allows them to score enough points to get by.


Al Jefferson literally said that he benefits because people aren't ready for his style of play. You guys brought that one up :confusedshrug:

I gotta go get laid continue this one without me

[DonDadda59]

-Thibs popularized a defense that specializes in using the new rules to take away the paint

Again, I asked for specifics. You're speaking in vague and meaningless generalities. Tell me specifically what strategies Thibs defenses use to 'take away the paint'.

I mean, I hate to harp on Big Al but here he is playing against Thibs' D the past 2 seasons and not struggling in the least to score from the post (against DPOY candidate Noah):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJOy5oaxHdw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcG3GB4Yd6Q

So talk me through that game footage. What exactly were the Bulls doing to take the paint/post away from Big Al? :confusedshrug:



-Most traditional big men spend a decent amount of their time trying to score in the paint correct?

Correct.


-allowing more defenders in the paint for longer=bad for people trying to score in the paint

Which is why the 3-second rule is a benefit for anyone interested in being in the paint on offense, whether from the post or from the perimeter. This is basic logic.


The bobcats aren't winning because Al Jefferson is tearing up the league in the post. They're winning because of great team defense. Al Jefferson is giving them an option that allows them to score enough points to get by.


Al Jefferson literally said that he benefits because people aren't ready for his style of play. You guys brought that one up :confusedshrug:

I gotta go get laid continue this one without me

And you said that there were rules instated to take away from traditional post players. Also that defenses post 2007/2008 changed so much that there are 'Ewings and Hakeems' today who are being 'held back'.

But now you're saying defenses aren't ready for post players.

At least tell me you can see how that makes you look as if you're talking in circles :oldlol:

And if the Bobcats didn't run their offense through Big Al in the post and instead reverted to going through their perimeter players (Kemba Walker led them in FGA last year when they were 21-61, he's shooting 39% FG this year)... do you think they'd be a 42+ win playoff team?

Of course you don't. But you just want to argue for the sake of it.

White text- Hopefully you're better with your female game than you are with talking ball :cheers:

[Calabis]

this era is shit for a reason

and it isnt a lack of tall strong human beings with hand eye coordination

its the rule changes

NO wilt would not dominate. sorry

Wait.....when people argued about rule changes back in the old days...u discounted it. Now that two other guys are playing in that same system of rules and approaching ur guys status its a shit era?

[INDI]

you're confusing empty stats with valued stats.


put him on a contender and his stats drop to 15ppg


500 teams dont get played the same way.

and 21.9 ppg isnt that amazing anyway

i'm talking about the 27-29ppg+ big men

First off there is no such thing as empty stats. That is insinuating that defenders are choosing to get abused on purpose because they are on a mediocre team, which is stupid and only something I hear on ish.

Secondly there has been a couple of big men after Shaq, Duncan to look like they could dominate. Nowitzki just won a ring a few years ago, and even though he can shoot 3's everyone knows he does his damage from the post. Bynum was on his way until the injuries.

Thirdly the best big men nowadays are more defensive players (hibbert, dwight, noah). They dont possess even a 3rd of the skillsets that the greats had on offense.

4th, You are ABSOLUTELY out of your mind to think KAJ or HAKEEM wouldnt dominate today. Its a flashy players game because thats all we got left.

[ralph_i_el]

Again, I asked for specifics. You're speaking in vague and meaningless generalities. Tell me specifically what strategies Thibs defenses use to 'take away the paint'.

I mean, I hate to harp on Big Al but here he is playing against Thibs' D the past 2 seasons and not struggling in the least to score from the post (against DPOY candidate Noah):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJOy5oaxHdw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcG3GB4Yd6Q

So talk me through that game footage. What exactly were the Bulls doing to take the paint/post away from Big Al? :confusedshrug:




Correct.



Which is why the 3-second rule is a benefit for anyone interested in being in the paint on offense, whether from the post or from the perimeter. This is basic logic.



And you said that there were rules instated to take away from traditional post players. Also that defenses post 2007/2008 changed so much that there are 'Ewings and Hakeems' today who are being 'held back'.

But now you're saying defenses aren't ready for post players.

At least tell me you can see how that makes you look as if you're talking in circles :oldlol:

And if the Bobcats didn't run their offense through Big Al in the post and instead reverted to going through their perimeter players (Kemba Walker led them in FGA last year when they were 21-61, he's shooting 39% FG this year)... do you think they'd be a 42+ win playoff team?

Of course you don't. But you just want to argue for the sake of it.

White text- Hopefully you're better with your female game than you are with talking ball :cheers:

There are two real principals to the thibs D if I was to simplify it.

You want to run every PnR "Down" to the baseline and use it as an extra defender. This is accomplished by a big helping hard off the weak side.

How thibs handles the post? The clip i'm about to post is after he left for the bulls, but they still play D pretty much the same

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3Vtl7qhcB4#t=16 Check at how many people put a foot in the paint with their eye on cousins. Then The next clip is Al Jefferson working in the post and ALL 5 DEFENDERS STEP IN THE PAINT WHILE HE'S IN THE POST. On that first play, under the old rules there would have been multiple chances to call illegal D. I believe pierce could have been called for illegal D on the second clip.


How do you not understand how the 3 second rule benefits the D? Previously they weren't allowed in the paint at all if their man was far enough away. Now they can do whatever they want as long as the leave the paint for .1 seconds every 2.9seconds.

Teams around the league aren't going to post guys as much to score (fact). Al Jefferson still DOES go to the post to score, even though it's not the most effective method for the team. The team has no choice because the bobcats are absolutely crap on offense outside of AlJeff. Therefore they run lots of post ups anyways because they have no better option. AL JEFFERSON has the hypothesis that teams no longer prepare for his style of play, which gives him a benefit to a degree. If more guys started copying Al Jefferson, that benefit would subside.

and thanks for the well wishes in regards to my game, this post wasn't from MY bed. Honestly, I've really enjoyed this debate. It's kind of my hobby.

[LAZERUSS]

If a clod like Cousins can get 23 ppg in the current NBA, than the truly gifted offensive centers like KAJ, Shaq, and Chamberlain, would easily be pouring in 30+.

[ralph_i_el]

If a clod like Cousins
:applause: brilliant

[DonDadda59]

There are two real principals to the thibs D if I was to simplify it.

You want to run every PnR "Down" to the baseline and use it as an extra defender. This is accomplished by a big helping hard off the weak side.

How thibs handles the post? The clip i'm about to post is after he left for the bulls, but they still play D pretty much the same

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3Vtl7qhcB4#t=16 Check at how many people put a foot in the paint with their eye on cousins. Then The next clip is Al Jefferson working in the post and ALL 5 DEFENDERS STEP IN THE PAINT WHILE HE'S IN THE POST. On that first play, under the old rules there would have been multiple chances to call illegal D. I believe pierce could have been called for illegal D on the second clip.

Al Jefferson past 2 seasons averages: 19.8 PPG (50% FG) 10 RPG
Al Jefferson vs Thibs' defense the past 2 seasons: 26.8 PPG (58% FG) 10.8 RPG

So for all your nonsense about how Thibs' defense 'takes away the paint' and hinders post play, looks like Big Al has no problem getting his against them. As in the videos I posted, where he roasted DPOY candidate Noah and the Bulls D... your story doesn't check out. But hey, they play again tonight so maybe they'll finally be able to hold him to his season averages :oldlol:

I guess all those undercover Hakeems and Ewings just need to play against Thibs' D to get their mojo going.


How do you not understand how the 3 second rule benefits the D? Previously they weren't allowed in the paint at all if their man was far enough away. Now they can do whatever they want as long as the leave the paint for .1 seconds every 2.9seconds.

:facepalm

How the hell is the 3-second rule supposed to help defenses? You really think forcing big men to vacate the paint every 3 seconds, thereby leaving it wide open for drives/post moves/etc benefits defenses? The NBA brass responsible for the changes have gone on record saying the changes were made to increase scoring and help offenses. And if you just take a look at block numbers, you'll see the sort of effect the rule has had in hindering bigs' ability to play D effectively:

1993-94 BPG Leaders (95 Pace)
1) Dikembe Mutumbo 4.1
2) Hakeem Olajuwon 3.7
3) David Robinson 3.3
4) Alonzo Mourning 3.1
5) Shawn Bradley 3.0

2013-14 BPG Leaders (94 Pace)
1) Anthony Davis 2.8
2) Serge Ibaka 2.7
3) DeAndre Jordan 2.5
4) Roy Hibbert 2.3
5) Tim Duncan 1.9

Big discrepancy, no? It's basic logic- if you allow bigs to camp out in the lane, they can help better on drives/post ups/etc therefore they rack up more blocks, contests, steals, etc. You force them to run out the lane, their effectiveness as helpers is negatively impacted.

Again, this is the most basic of logic. You don't even have to be a basketball aficionado to figure this out.

And you don't seriously think any NBA center (or any human being in general) can leave and return to the paint in 0.1 seconds :biggums:


Teams around the league aren't going to post guys as much to score (fact).

Because there are a handful of guys left who know how to play in the post, fact. Those who do have no problem putting up #s. The Bobcats went from 21 wins last year to 42+ this year once they started going through Jefferson in the post, fact. Tim Duncan, one of the last real big men left, just led his team to the best record in the league a year after being first team all NBA and leading his team to the finals... at age 36-37. Fact.


Al Jefferson still DOES go to the post to score, even though it's not the most effective method for the team.

And what would be the most effective method for the Cats' offense, running things through Kemba Walker again? :oldlol:



The team has no choice because the bobcats are absolutely crap on offense outside of AlJeff. Therefore they run lots of post ups anyways because they have no better option. AL JEFFERSON has the hypothesis that teams no longer prepare for his style of play, which gives him a benefit to a degree. If more guys started copying Al Jefferson, that benefit would subside.


And there you go again :lol

So Al Jefferson is only putting up all star/all nba caliber #s because more people don't post up? Your theory was that defenses are geared toward stopping post/paint play... but now they aren't equipped to stop one undersized center? And you pointed out a specific coach with a specific system (even though you clearly don't know what you're talking about :lol ) that was supposedly the standard used to accomplish this. I provided you stats and video evidence to show how useless said defense was against a traditional big man.

But the Bulls-Cats play tonight, so maybe they'll finally figure out how to take away the paint and turn Big Al into another incognito Ewing :lol

[ralph_i_el]

Bwahaha Al Jefferson sucking D while Cousins and Gasol go HAM.

figured this deserved a bump

[Mr. Jabbar]

"upon being sniffed, every perimeter player should be awarded a +1, unless his name is kobe bryant"

-David Stern, NBA rules

[SouBeachTalents]

"upon being sniffed, every perimeter player should be awarded a +1, unless his name is kobe bryant"

-David Stern, NBA rules

:oldlol: at Laker fans complaining about the refs

[Im Still Ballin]

Bwahaha Al Jefferson sucking D while Cousins and Gasol go HAM.

figured this deserved a bump
Primarily just Cousins really. We haven't seen these type of numbers since a PRIME SHAQ! Every year we see guys putting up numbers similar to Gasol or Jefferson. These guys are just not on the same level as Cousins. We are witnessing one of the few next generation superstar centers.

[sportjames23]

Everything you post is shit.


All that needs to be said.

[Dro]

I see your point and agree that the league is heavily perimeter orientated.

But you have overly simplified it

If Dwight can put up 23/14 and lead a team to the finals and win multiple DPOY awards and come close to winning MVP a few times, then surely other great bigs could.
This........

[pudman13]

i dont think so.. the whole idea of a big man is banging, bulling over people. abusing people. backing them down. camping. getting calls


That's not how Kareem played, or Bill Walton, or Bill Russell, or Dave Cowens, or even Wilt, to name five players who would be stars in any era.

Moses Malone and Shaq are the two players who come to mind as benefitting most from a tight, brutal inside game. It would be interesting to see what would happen with a player of that type today. Shaq's game was something I always found ugly. How would he fare if fouls were called the way they really should be? Who knows? How would any player of today far if palming and travelling were called the way they really should be?

[pudman13]

Guy Rogers, Lou Hudson, Dave Bing, Walt Hazzard, Archie Clark... there's a long list of players that were ambidextrous dribblers and finishers in that era that used crossovers, jab steps and any other guard handling move in the modern game. Jerry West is pretty much the one freak outlier guard that was visibly 1 hand dominant. And yet, he was still the #2 best guard of the 1960's, he was better than all the guys with an ambidextrous handle and scoring hand. Being that he is such a high profile player his footage which is often seen from that era gives people the illusion that 'all' the guards back then 'couldn't dribble (with non-dominant hand)'... it's pretty much just him though.

Walt Frazier...even more than the guys you mentioned. Earl Monroe too.

Havlicek was even worse with his left hand than West, and somehow he managed to be an almost unstoppable offensive force.

[DonDadda59]

Bwahaha Al Jefferson sucking D while Cousins and Gasol go HAM.

figured this deserved a bump

Wasn't your whole schtick in this thread that modern bigs were mysteriously being held back from being Hakeems or Robinsons? :confusedshrug:

Wouldn't the rise of a Davis or Cousins just prove what I and others have been saying all along- the rule changes benefit perimeter players but they don't hinder bigs offensively (the 3-second rule does take away from their defensive impact). The league had been suffering from a lack of talent at the PF/C because guys who were supposed to be carrying the present generation of bigs (ie, Oden, Bynum, etc) were injured or turned out to be busts.

Davis/Cousins/our favorite Big Al just prove that point. Nothing is holding Cs/bigs back from performing like their past counterparts besides level of talent.

[Marchesk]

I'm failing to understand how Kareem's game would suffer under today's rules.

[Marchesk]

It's the reason I think you have to take someone like Wiggins over Embiid even though Embiid is clearly the better prospect.

And then turn around and trade him for a PF.

[LAZERUSS]

I'm failing to understand how Kareem's game would suffer under today's rules.

A prime (and motivated) Kareem would be KILLING the current NBA. If the 6-11 Cousins can average 24 ppg on 50% shooting against the clowns who play today, a prime KAJ would easily put up his early 70's ppg, but probably on 60%+ shooting.

[Round Mound]

anyone who thinks a big man from 60's,70's,80's,90's,00's would dominate today.......IS RIGHT AND SPEAKING THE TRUTH

Back in those eras Big Men used to know how to play back to the basket game. The game was outside-then-inside unlike today which pretty much is outside-then-outside again. Even perimeter players had decent back to the basket games cause of handchecking and old rules unlike today`s NBA which is free slash no one camping in the paint and shot jacking threes all the time.

[LAZERUSS]

anyone who thinks a big man from 60's,70's,80's,90's,00's would dominate today.......IS RIGHT AND SPEAKING THE TRUTH

Back in those eras Big Men used to know how to play back to the basket game. The game was not outside-then-inside unlike today which pretty much is outside-then-outside again. Even perimeter players had decent back to the basket games cause of handchecking and old rules unlike today`s NBA which is free slash no one camping in the paint and shot jacking threes all the time.


100% agreed.

I get a kick out of Thon Maker's high school career. A seven-footer in high school, and not only taking 3pt shots, but only shooting 29% on them. Gone are the days when centers were trained to post-up, and score from inside the paint.

[pudman13]

Can I get in my high horse again? This is all another reason I think the 3-pointer has done the game more harm than good. People just don't realize the extent to which it has changed every single aspect of the game.

[Round Mound]

100% agreed.

I get a kick out of Thon Maker's high school career. A seven-footer in high school, and not only taking 3pt shots, but only shooting 29% on them. Gone are the days when centers were trained to post-up, and score from inside the paint.

Sadly there are very few good back to the basket players in the NBA. Its a free slash and shot jack 3s league. I hate the new rules and dislike the contactless NBA of today. There is not a thing as a 4 or 5 in todays NBA. They all play like 2s and 3s :cry:

[LAZERUSS]

Ryan Hollins...

7-0 230 lb center...

Nine seasons in the NBA... and a career 3.8 ppg, 2.1 rpg player. Even worse, he played four years at UCLA, and averaged 5.7 ppg and 4.0 rpg.

Guess what...he has been STARTING in his last three NBA games.

The man not only would NOT have started at UCLA in the late 60's and early 70's, he likely would NOT have made their rosters (and he most CERTAINLY would NOT have made the rosters of the Walton teams.)


Of course, the 6-6 Chuck Hayes has also been a STARTING center in his NBA career, as well.

[pudman13]

As to 3's, until the late 80s teams overall averaged only about three attempts a game, so at that point it was still a very minor part of the game and kind of exciting when someone took a few. People who didn't watch in the 80s don't realize what a difference it is now when so many players on each team take multiples of them every game and when every star or wannabe star tries to make it part of his game.

I bet if any modern team tried to play, say, an exhibition game without the rule, they would have no idea what to do.

[Marchesk]

They could move the 3pt line back and make it a lower percentage shot. Wouldn't effect Kobe, but other players would take less.

It's no big deal for guys to be hitting well over 40% from back there now. It's too easy.

[LAZERUSS]

Roy Hibbert... the James Donaldson of the modern era.

How many here have ever heard of Donaldson?

[LAZERUSS]

I wonder how these guys, and in their primes, would fare in TODAY's NBA?

Walton, Gilmore, McAdoo, Lanier, Cowens, Reed, Thurmond, and Moses.

[Fire Colangelo]

The rule change didn't make that big of an impact as you made it seem it did. Yes it favors perimeter players a bit more, but great big men are gonna be great in any era.

Elite/All star big men since the rule change in 06:

Yao
Dwight
Elton Brand
Pau Gasol
Amare Stoudemire
Duncan
Old Shaq
Bosh
etcetc

You have the likes of Al Jefferson and Cousins dominating the centre position in today's league, you don't like a prime Shaq/Kareem or even prime Yao could get theirs in today's league?

[Dr.J4ever]

Ralph_i_el made some great points. He's the most unbiased of the poster's in this thread.

Having said that, I don't think he would disagree that past great centers would still dominate, just not as much. Rules changes are pretty much acknowledged as changing the game by pretty much everyone who is not a stan, or arguing in favor of a past idol/god.

However, if a young KAJ was in the 2015 Draft, hell yeah, I'm taking him number 1. Imagine the possibilities of building a modern team with him.

Wow:bowdown:

[CavaliersFTW]

Ralph_i_el made some great points. He's the most unbiased of the poster's in this thread.

Having said that, I don't think he would disagree that past great centers would still dominate, just not as much. Rules changes are pretty much acknowledged as changing the game by pretty much everyone who is not a stan, or arguing in favor of a past idol/god.

However, if a young KAJ was in the 2015 Draft, hell yeah, I'm taking him number 1. Imagine the possibilities of building a modern team with him.

Wow:bowdown:
Rick Barry and Hakeem Olajuwon don't think the big man role has been diminished by rules and they both openly oppose such suggestions in interviews. They aren't stans or arguing in favor of past idols/gods. They've got pretty gifted minds and a firm handle on the game too.

[LAZERUSS]

Rick Barry and Hakeem Olajuwon don't think the big man role has been diminished by rules and they both openly oppose such suggestions in interviews. They aren't stans or arguing in favor of past idols/gods. They've got pretty gifted minds and a firm handle on the game too.

Cousins at 24 ppg on 50% shooting is all I need to know.

Peak Wilt, KAJ, and Shaq easily blow those numbers out of the water...especially when you factor in the lack of competition at the center position.

And I don't want to hear any nonsense regarding defense today. Those three were, BY FAR, the most heavily-defended centers in NBA history.

[Smoke117]

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Al-Jefferson-2979/

Plus Al Jefferson = physically identical to Wayne Embry in size, ~ 6-8 270 with long arms and big hands, you know just another one of the helpless examples of "undersized" bigs Wilt was crushing that wouldn't even be able to make it in today's league where every big is a "7 footer" :lol

Never thought I'd see that name brought up here...Wayne Embry. :applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

Never thought I'd see that name brought up here...Wayne Embry. :applause:
Where I work, Wayne Embry used to work as a board member. Everybody who worked with him/has met him who's still there talks about how unbelievably huge he was. They've come down to my floor just to show me pictures, it's one thing to see him next to other giants like Wilt, but totally incredible to see him standing next to some of us mere mortals. I found an article from the 1980's that said his hands spread 12 inches thumb to pinky... that's 2 inches wider than Kawhi's and unlike Kawhi his hands weren't skinny :eek: in fact he's the only player I'm aware of with hands that spread thumb to pinky wider than Wilt Chamberlains (who's hands spready "only" 11.5 inches)

Check out this video of Wayne, who had to see a recent player Noah Vonleh who got drafted who reportedly had hands bigger than his which sparked his curiosity. http://youtu.be/Ilc5ULVdhso?t=13s

Wayne in his playing days against Wilt
http://img.spokeo.com/public/900-600/wilt_chamberlain_1966_02_01.jpg

The ball almost disappears in his hands.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-osflaHfAlVo/T1SRl7bkBdI/AAAAAAAADNI/K5gbpDMIbME/s640/big%2520hand%2520embry.jpg

[ralph_i_el]

Ralph_i_el made some great points. He's the most unbiased of the poster's in this thread.

Having said that, I don't think he would disagree that past great centers would still dominate, just not as much. Rules changes are pretty much acknowledged as changing the game by pretty much everyone who is not a stan, or arguing in favor of a past idol/god.

However, if a young KAJ was in the 2015 Draft, hell yeah, I'm taking him number 1. Imagine the possibilities of building a modern team with him.

Wow:bowdown:

I wouldn't disagree at all.

[swagga]

So Al Jefferson can average 21.9ppg and 10.7rpg in today's NBA but you don't think Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem etc would dominate?

Strong argument right there.

:roll:
with todays big man crop, prime shaq would avg 30/15/5/3

[DaRkJaWs]

:roll:
with todays big man crop, prime shaq would avg 30/15/5/3
Lets keep it in the realm of believability here....Shaquille highest season average for rebounds was in his rookie year, at 13.9, when one could argue the crop of centers was at its strongest. As those centers got older shaqs rebounding did not get any better.

[j3lademaster]

Having said that, I don't think he would disagree that past great centers would still dominate, just not as much. Rules changes are pretty much acknowledged as changing the game by pretty much everyone who is not a stan, or arguing in favor of a past idol/god./Thread

[swagga]

Lets keep it in the realm of believability here....Shaquille highest season average for rebounds was in his rookie year, at 13.9, when one could argue the crop of centers was at its strongest. As those centers got older shaqs rebounding did not get any better.

in his prime shaq averaged >12 rebounds in a league with ewing/karl malone/olajuwon/zo/mutombo/duncan/garnett/drob/grant/oakley/ben wallace/rodman .. with a peak 13.9 rebounds per game.

Don't you think the drastic difference in competition almost guarantees 15 rpg ? (even with his lazy self .. we're not talking about a motivated shaq's whose rebounding rate is in the rodman/chamberlain/russell league)