If you switched Kevin Love for Dirk would Minny make the Playoffs?

[Darius]

I am crazy to think that they would?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

I think they have a shot TBH but w/ Pekovic injured for that much maybe not. I think theyd have a better record than Wolves now tho. Love has better numbers but Dirk just has all the intangibles that Love doesnt

[atljonesbro]

No Dirk does nothing better than Love.

[navy]

The Mavericks have Ellis and Carlise and barely squeaked in.

Your telling me Dirk would have made it with the Timberwolves? :roll:

[Darius]

The Mavericks have Ellis and Carlise and barely squeaked in.

Your telling me Dirk would have made it with the Timberwolves? :roll:

Adelman is a top 10 coach. Ellis? You mean the guy whoever hated as a in-efficient chucker everywhere else?

Dirk would have Pek, Kevin Martin, Rubio & Corey Brewer... I think they would compliment him well.

I like T-Wolves roster better than Dallas roster outside of Dirk/Love.

[Cone]

Yes. Dirk > love

Amazing. Comsidering dirk is 36 and love is in his prime

[atljonesbro]

Adelman is a top 10 coach. Ellis? You mean the guy whoever hated as a in-efficient chucker everywhere else?

Dirk would have Pek, Kevin Martin, Rubio & Corey Brewer... I think they would compliment him well.

I like T-Wolves roster better than Dallas roster outside of Dirk/Love.
Look at the blatant downplaying and up playing to fit your argument :roll:.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

The Mavericks have Ellis and Carlise and barely squeaked in.

Your telling me Dirk would have made it with the Timberwolves? :roll:
Lets be real no one thought Monta was a good player before:facepalm :facepalm he gettin more shine cuz he seein more open driving lanes with Dirk out there:biggums:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Not current Dirk, no. I'd most likely take Love over Dirk at this point, of course Dirk's more experient and we'll see what happens in the playoffs, Dirk most of the time finds ways to step up and he's a proven performer.

[SCdac]

Dirk is a better player but I'm not convinced Wolves would be much better if they still have the exact same team. Maybe +5-7 wins? Not like the defense would improve that much. Maybe a playoff team but still one expected to get bounced, kinda like the current Mavs.

[mr.big35]

they would have third worst record. Dallas would be at best a 5th seed with kevin love

[mr.big35]

inb4 dmavs41 with his 5 page essay why dirk is better than kevin love.

[TMT]

No. Without Pek this Wolves team is just plain bad other than Love.

[atljonesbro]

Dirk is a better player but I'm not convinced Wolves would be much better if they still have the exact same team. Maybe +5-7 wins? Not like the defense would improve that much. Maybe a playoff team but still one expected to get bounced, kinda like the current Mavs.
You have you really not ever watch basketball to even slightly believe Dirk is better than Love. The numbers are such a massive gap it can't even be argued. I know you wanna be edgy and go against the grain pretending you're seeing something we don't, but really it's not even realistic to say Dirk is better than Love.

26/13/4 on 59 TS%
22/6/3 on 60 TS%

You can't be serious if you think Dirk is better.

[Darius]

Look at the blatant downplaying and up playing to fit your argument :roll:.

Not really.

I'm don't have a dog in the fight.

I think Kevin Love is a very good player.

Just was thinking about it and somehow I think Dirk could get those guys there.

Kevin Love is probably a better individual player but I feel Dirk as a leader and the matchup problems he creates would make the difference to make the Wolves a better team. Hell, Dirk also plays average defense vs. Love's terrible D.

I can imagine Dirk in the high post having great chemistry with Pek.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Maybe.. I know that Dirk would be a better fit with Rubio because he's a threat from everywhere on the court. A higher quality of scorer really..

Pek/Dirk/Brewer/Martin/Rubio have better spacing, imo.

[Darius]

No. Without Pek this Wolves team is just plain bad other than Love.

I agree - Pek would have to remain healthy but Wolves were out of the playoffs even with Pek.

[houston]

yes he would have

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

You have you really not ever watch basketball to even slightly believe Dirk is better than Love. The numbers are such a massive gap it can't even be argued. I know you wanna be edgy and go against the grain pretending you're seeing something we don't, but really it's not even realistic to say Dirk is better than Love.

26/13/4 on 59 TS%
22/6/3 on 60 TS%

You can't be serious if you think Dirk is better.
did u miss all the poor clutch play from Minnesota? If Love was even decent in crunch time theyd have 5 or 6 more wins at least their record like 2-14 in games decided by 2 or less possessions and Loves stat stink in it:facepalm Love is not a leader and doesnt have intangibles like Dirk:facepalm

[atljonesbro]

did u miss all the poor clutch play from Minnesota? If Love was even decent in crunch time theyd have 5 or 6 more wins at least their record like 2-14 in games decided by 2 or less possessions and Loves stat stink in it:facepalm Love is not a leader and doesnt have intangibles like Dirk:facepalm
They wouldn't even be in most of those games with Dirk's production compared to Love's.

[DMAVS41]

Prime Dirk? Hell yes.

Current Dirk? No way...at most the Wolves would have like 5 more wins...at most really.

I've been hard on Love, and rightfully so at times, but he's not the problem. The problem with the Wolves is that they suck when Love isn't on the court.

Unless Dirk magically makes the rotations much better, not likely, he isn't getting to the playoffs with his team having a minus 6 point scoring differential when he's on the bench.

[SCdac]

You have you really not ever watch basketball to even slightly believe Dirk is better than Love. The numbers are such a massive gap it can't even be argued. I know you wanna be edgy and go against the grain pretending you're seeing something we don't, but really it's not even realistic to say Dirk is better than Love.

26/13/4 on 59 TS%
22/6/3 on 60 TS%

You can't be serious if you think Dirk is better.

Some things are not all about numbers... How do you measure Dirk's experience, resiliency, clutchness, leadership, etc.? ... If you think Love is currently the better player, that's fair (he's certainly younger and can log more minutes), but considering their skill set for a big man is similar I'd prefer the former Finals MVP who's still going strong. Like I said, I think Dirk is better, but in an 82 game season at Dirk's age I'm not sold he'd improve the Wolves much, even with his intangible qualities.

[Ronaldinho]

No. Without Pek this Wolves team is just plain bad other than Love.
Their starting team is good. I like Rubio, great defender, passer and rebounder, although he cant shoot to save his life.

[Ronaldinho]

Some things are not all about numbers... How do you measure Dirk's experience, resiliency, clutchness, leadership, etc.? ... If you think Love is currently the better player, that's fair (he's certainly younger and can log more minutes), but considering their skill set for a big man is similar I'd prefer the former Finals MVP who's still going strong. Like I said, I think Dirk is better, but in an 82 game season at Dirk's age I'm not sold he'd improve the Wolves much, even with his intangible qualities.
100% agreed.

[atljonesbro]

Some things are not all about numbers... How do you measure Dirk's experience, resiliency, clutchness, leadership, etc.? ... If you think Love is currently the better player, that's fair (he's certainly younger and can log more minutes), but considering their skill set for a big man is similar I'd prefer the former Finals MVP who's still going strong. Like I said, I think Dirk is better, but in an 82 game season at Dirk's age I'm not sold he'd improve the Wolves much, even with his intangible qualities.
The fact of the matter is I'm coming with facts while you're coming with "heart", "leadership", and "resiliency". Not even an argument really. Just a fall back for people when facts don't fit their argument.

[Darius]

The fact of the matter is I'm coming with facts while you're coming with "heart", "leadership", and "resiliency". Not even an argument really. Just a fall back for people when facts don't fit their argument.

Good point.

Numbers are what's important.

That's why the guy with the best numbers in the league, Kevin Love, is just gearing up for the playoffs...

oh, wait...

[atljonesbro]

Good point.

Numbers are what's important.

That's why the guy with the best numbers in the league, Kevin Love, is just gearing up for the playoffs...

oh, wait...
Not really his fault. Poor supporting cast with one of the most stacked conferences all time.

[eklip]

The fact of the matter is I'm coming with facts while you're coming with "heart", "leadership", and "resiliency". Not even an argument really. Just a fall back for people when facts don't fit their argument.
There are many things that we don't measure. How many points does a team score after a screen from Dirk/Love. How many points does a team score after double teams. We have no individual stats for team defense or 1on1 defense. ...

It's not just about "heart", "leadership" and "resiliency".

Dirk was statistically better in the 2001/02 season than he was in the championship season, but he wasn't a better player.

[SCdac]

The fact of the matter is I'm coming with facts while you're coming with "heart", "leadership", and "resiliency". Not even an argument really. Just a fall back for people when facts don't fit their argument.

Man I don't have time to explain to you how intangible qualities and actions impact the game of basketball, or how experience tends to enrich one's abilities. Have you ever played a sport competitively? ... I'm just saying, basketball isn't fantasy basketball in which statistics solely determine who the "best" players are. Just curious, would you rank Kyle Lowry over current Tony Parker based on higher ppg and apg? That's another example, imo, of stats not showing the best player. Give me Parker for sure.

[Droid101]

If you think Dirk's supporting cast is on the same level as Kevin Love's, you are brain dead.

Love scored 43 points (again) last night and lost because his starting back court shot 0-12.

[atljonesbro]

There are many things that we don't measure. How many points does a team score after a screen from Dirk/Love. How many points does a team score after double teams. We have no individual stats for team defense or 1on1 defense. ...

It's not just about "heart", "leadership" and "resiliency".

Dirk was statistically better in the 2001/02 season than he was in the championship season, but he wasn't a better player.
I understand that, but the problem is when people think all that is a more valid argument than facts. From a factual stand point, Love is a FAR superior player to Dirk. His all the heart in the world can't make up for his lack of production compared to Love.

[Darius]

If you think Dirk's supporting cast is on the same level as Kevin Love's, you are brain dead.

Love scored 43 points (again) last night and lost because his starting back court shot 0-12.

If you think that a team's creator doesn't impact how role players look, I don't know what else to tell you.

Ellis, Calderon, Dalembert, Marion (35!) vs. Rubio, Martin, Brewer, Pekovich?

I'm taking the 2nd team if I had to choose in a vacuum.

[mr.big35]

Love is better he knows get rebounds

[DMAVS41]

I understand that, but the problem is when people think all that is a more valid argument than facts. From a factual stand point, Love is a FAR superior player to Dirk. His all the heart in the world can't make up for his lack of production compared to Love.

I wouldn't go that far.

Love is not a "far" superior player.

I'd still take Dirk over Love going into a playoff series. Over the course of a regular season? Yea...give me Love because he's younger and he's better on the boards and can play longer etc...

But Love has some issues with his game that I'm not sure I'd want him over Dirk in the playoffs when these guys can rest and play closer minutes per game.

Love takes way too many threes, doesn't have a reliable post game, and his play at the end of games (because of his deficiencies) leaves stuff to be desired both individually and for the team. And those end of game situations are pretty much just how the playoffs are played. The pace slows down and you have to score more in the half court and not on broken plays...etc. That is why I'd like to see Love play in the playoffs...it's not a completely different game, but it's definitely different enough that we need to see how guys do.

I like Love though...he's better than a lot of people in this thread or letting on.

But he's also not a FAR superior player than Dirk.

[k0kakw0rld]

Yes. Dirk > love

Amazing. Comsidering dirk is 36 and love is in his prime
how is Dirk better when he gets carried by Monta? :confusedshrug:

[DirkNowitzki41]

yes because dirk is better than him, and is a legit star.

love can stat pad all he wants, in no way shape or form is he a better player than dirk. hope he has fun on his couch while dirk is playing games that matter

edit: just realized the only people who say they wont make the POs are all retarded trolls. peace.

[DMAVS41]

how is Dirk better when he gets carried by Monta? :confusedshrug:

Monta was great this year, but Dirk was the absolute clear cut best player of our team.

[swagga]

If you think Dirk's supporting cast is on the same level as Kevin Love's, you are brain dead.

Love scored 43 points (again) last night and lost because his starting back court shot 0-12.

The answer to the thread question is obviously no, they would not.

BUT... when you compare supporting casts you should compare them taking into account WHAT they support. What minny truly lacks is a player that can create (as in not only shoot) his offense from all over the floor and be a true team leader. They don't lack rebounding, they all rebound decently even with love sometimes fighting teammates for rebounds, and love's D isn't anything to write home about. On the other hand from an offensive standpoint dirk enables you to actually put pressure on a defense since he can put the ball on the floor and he is probably the greatest high-post player in the league.... so dirk wouldn't put 26 but the team would perform at a higher level offensively overall.

I'm pretty sure they'd have a better record with dirk.

[swagga]

how is Dirk better when he gets carried by Monta? :confusedshrug:

you should watch basketball, it's more interesting than box scores.

[Darius]

The answer to the thread question is obviously no, they would not.

BUT... when you compare supporting casts you should compare them taking into account WHAT they support. What minny truly lacks is a player that can create (as in not only shoot) his offense from all over the floor and be a true team leader. They don't lack rebounding, they all rebound decently even with love sometimes fighting teammates for rebounds, and love's D isn't anything to write home about. On the other hand from an offensive standpoint dirk enables you to actually put pressure on a defense since he can put the ball on the floor and he is probably the greatest high-post player in the league.... so dirk wouldn't put 26 but the team would perform at a higher level offensively overall.

I'm pretty sure they'd have a better record with dirk.

This man gets it.

[swagga]

yes because dirk is better than him, and is a legit star.

love can stat pad all he wants, in no way shape or form is he a better player than dirk. hope he has fun on his couch while dirk is playing games that matter

edit: just realized the only people who say they wont make the POs are all retarded trolls. peace.

look at minny, sure they'd be better with dirk BUT with him they'd be great offensively but they'd still have ZERO rim protection so saying PO is quite a stretch, not unimaginable, but umprobable. Peace son.

[Fire Colangelo]

Calderon is so underrated, he's a good playmaker and an excellent shooter. He is easily more effective than Rubio. Ellis is better than Martin, Marion is the same kind of player as Brewer, and Dalembart is better than an injured Pek. Mavs have good players coming off the bench while the wolves bench straight up sucks.

[DMAVS41]

I'll say it again;

Dirk's team without him was -1.3 points per 100 possessions

Love's team without him was -5.7 points per 100 possessions

That is not Love's fault. You give Love Dirk's differential and they are battling for the last playoff spot. You give him the differential of Kevin Durant (a positive 2.4 scoring differential) he's winning like 50 to 55 games easily.

Love has flaws, and his game in my opinion is better suited for the regular season than the playoffs, but you can't expect much more with such a terrible bench on/off play and without having a reliable 2nd star or 2nd best guy.


But, let me be clear, prime Dirk is easily making the playoffs with this team. It's just that current Dirk isn't.

[Fire Colangelo]

I'll say it again;

Dirk's team without him was -1.3 points per 100 possessions

Love's team without him was -5.7 points per 100 possessions

That is not Love's fault. You give Love Dirk's differential and they are battling for the last playoff spot. You give him the differential of Kevin Durant (a positive 2.4 scoring differential) he's winning like 50 to 55 games easily.

Love has flaws, and his game in my opinion is better suited for the regular season than the playoffs, but you can't expect much more with such a terrible bench on/off play and without having a reliable 2nd star or 2nd best guy.


But, let me be clear, prime Dirk is easily making the playoffs with this team. It's just that current Dirk isn't.

I don't think current dirk even gets a better record IMO. Dirk at 36 just can't shoulder the offensive load anymore like he used to. Not to mention the wolves roster doesn't suit Dirk very well either, they lack the inside defensive presence who both Dirk and Love desperately needs.

Mavs have a better supporting cast than Wolves as well.
Calderon > Rubio
Ellis > Martin
Marion = Brewer
Dalembert > injured Pek
Carter/Wright > whoever comes off the bench for the wolves

[DMAVS41]

I don't think current dirk even gets a better record IMO. Dirk at 36 just can't shoulder the offensive load anymore like he used to. Not to mention the wolves roster doesn't suit Dirk very well either, they lack the inside defensive presence who both Dirk and Love desperately needs.

Mavs have a better supporting cast than Wolves as well.
Calderon > Rubio
Ellis > Martin
Marion = Brewer
Dalembert > injured Pek
Carter/Wright > whoever comes off the bench for the wolves

Yea...we have no idea.

I think Dirk could have made them a better clutch team at end of games because of what he can do, but who knows...Dirk hasn't been great late in games this year anyway.

I'd would take Love in the regular season at this point and...the point is simple....Dirk is not making the Wolves 8 to 10 games better on the year. So no, Dirk is not getting this team to the playoffs.

Dirk might improve them a few games...or he might have them at 37 wins or something. Just don't know.

[eklip]

I don't think current dirk even gets a better record IMO. Dirk at 36 just can't shoulder the offensive load anymore like he used to. Not to mention the wolves roster doesn't suit Dirk very well either, they lack the inside defensive presence who both Dirk and Love desperately needs.

Mavs have a better supporting cast than Wolves as well.
Calderon > Rubio
Ellis > Martin
Marion = Brewer
Dalembert > injured Pek
Carter/Wright > whoever comes off the bench for the wolves

Wolves played 54 games with Pek and the record was 27-27. You can't use really use his injury as an excuse.

It's hard to understand why Love can't win more than 50% of the games with this Wolves team.

Mavs record last year was .500 with this lineup:
Guards: Collison, OJ Mayo, Mike James
SF: Marion, Vince, Crowder
PF: Dirk
C: Kaman, Brand, Wright

Kaman (Lakers) and Mayo (Bucks) struggle to get minutes on two of the worst teams in the NBA. Collison (Clippers) and Brand (Hawks) are backups and Mike James was waived by Chicago.

The Mavs were also 10 games below .500 before Dirk was back in shape.

Edit: I guess it's harder to win in the West this year, which would explain it a little bit.

[MavsPoke]

I love Dirk and all, but the answer to the OPs question is no way, not at this stage of Dirks career.

I know this board likes to hate on Love, but when I've seen him play he is a freaking beast.

I don't know what is wrong with the Twolves this year. On paper they have all the talent in the world. Why are they losing games??? I'm pretty sure that isn't Love's fault.

[Fire Colangelo]

Wolves played 54 games with Pek and the record was 27-27. You can't use really use his injury as an excuse.

It's hard to understand why Love can't win more than 50% of the games with this Wolves team.

Mavs record last year was .500 with this lineup:
Guards: Collison, OJ Mayo, Mike James
SF: Marion, Vince, Crowder
PF: Dirk
C: Kaman, Brand, Wright

Kaman (Lakers) and Mayo (Bucks) struggle to get minutes on two of the worst teams in the NBA. Collison (Clippers) and Brand (Hawks) are backups and Mike James was waived by Chicago.

The Mavs were also 10 games below .500 before Dirk was back in shape.

Edit: I guess it's harder to win in the West this year, which would explain it a little bit.

Well, my point is that Love and Pek just aren't a good fit. They're both beasts individually but they don't compliment each other at all. I haven't watched the wolves lately as much, so idk how good of a defender Dieng is. But if I'm the wolves, I'm going hard after someone like Gortat in FA, and try to trade for Avery Bradley. They need defensive presence on the perimeter AND the paint in order to cover Love's flaws.

[robert de niro]

Well, my point is that Love and Pek just aren't a good fit. They're both beasts individually but they don't compliment each other at all. I haven't watched the wolves lately as much, so idk how good of a defender Dieng is. But if I'm the wolves, I'm going hard after someone like Gortat in FA, and try to trade for Avery Bradley. They need defensive presence on the perimeter AND the paint in order to cover Love's flaws.
Dieng is a beast defensively, and is great offensively if they play pick and roll with rubio (on par with pek) the problem is that rick adelman is senile and loves to play hero ball with barea and kevin martin, I swear the dude has a weird fetish with barea, hope they both go away this offseason

[Fire Colangelo]

Dieng is a beast defensively, and is great offensively if they play pick and roll with rubio (on par with pek) the problem is that rick adelman is senile and loves to play hero ball with barea and kevin martin, I swear the dude has a weird fetish with barea, hope they both go away this offseason

I see.

Barea and Martin has been terrible when I saw them play. Maybe the wolves need a new coach if that's the case...

[navy]

Lets be real no one thought Monta was a good player before:facepalm :facepalm he gettin more shine cuz he seein more open driving lanes with Dirk out there:biggums:
False. Check what Ellis did before the bucks.

[andremiller07]

Dirk and Jose than yeah they do, Dirk alone probably not.

[oarabbus]

Lol @ "Dirk does nothing better than K Love" yeah except for putting up wins and making it to the playoffs. Not choking is another one of Dirk's specialties

Dirk > K Love


check their resumes

Someone please tell me how many times each has missed the playoffs

[miles berg]

Better record but not sure they get to 50. Probably 45-48 wins.

[DirkNowitzki07]

The wolves would be a solid 50-53 win team with current Dirk

Add prime Dirk and they would be a 58-62 win team and be title contenders.

Remember the team that Dirk carried to the finals in 06?

Terry, Adrian Griffin, Josh Howard, Eric Dampier LOL.

But yes I forgot according to ISH those players are first ballot HOF'ers :roll:

[TheMarkMadsen]

The wolves would be a solid 50-53 win team with current Dirk

Add prime Dirk and they would be a 58-62 win team and be title contenders.

Remember the team that Dirk carried to the finals in 06?

Terry, Adrian Griffin, Josh Howard, Eric Dampier LOL.

But yes I forgot according to ISH those players are first ballot HOF'ers :roll:

you named 2 bench players :facepalm

Terry was putting up 19/3/3..

Howard was a 17/7 guy

Stack was still putting up 14ppg..


Jason Terry put up 22ppg on 48% in those finals.. Dirk put up 22.8 on 39%.. stop acting like they were trash..

[Fire Colangelo]

The wolves would be a solid 50-53 win team with current Dirk

Add prime Dirk and they would be a 58-62 win team and be title contenders.

Remember the team that Dirk carried to the finals in 06?

Terry, Adrian Griffin, Josh Howard, Eric Dampier LOL.

But yes I forgot according to ISH those players are first ballot HOF'ers :roll:

You can't be serious, title contenders?

You act like Jason Terry and Josh Howard are scrubs. You act like Dirk didn't shoot 39% in the 06 finals, and you act like he didn't choke in 07. Jesus ****ing christ, prime Dirk gets this team to the playoffs but no way in hell are they making a deep run. :facepalm

[DirkNowitzki07]

you named 2 bench players :facepalm

Terry was putting up 19/3/3..

Howard was a 17/7 guy

Stack was still putting up 14ppg..


Jason Terry put up 22ppg on 48% in those finals.. Dirk put up 22.8 on 39%.. stop acting like they were trash..

:biggums: Which bench players? Adrian Griffin was starting games for the Mavs in 06, you mean Erick Dampier? He was splitting the minutes at center with DeSagana Diop :roll:

Also Terry wouldn't have averaged 22ppg on 48% without Dirk and neither would have Howard put up those numbers.

What happened to Josh Howard after he left the Mavs and Dirk? His career ended and so did Terry's.

Dirk made and still makes his team mates better, a valuable intangible that Kevin Love does not have.

Add a prime Kevin Love putting up 26ppg and 13rpg to the Mavs in 11'' and they don't even sniff the WCF, and probably get swept by the Lakers in the 2nd round

[DMAVS41]

you named 2 bench players :facepalm

Terry was putting up 19/3/3..

Howard was a 17/7 guy

Stack was still putting up 14ppg..


Jason Terry put up 22ppg on 48% in those finals.. Dirk put up 22.8 on 39%.. stop acting like they were trash..

You leave out that along with 19/3/3 from Terry...you also got 52% TS for the playoffs. Really gonna make a big deal out of a 19/3/3 player that is a negative defensively that needs a pick and roll to get quality shots?

Terry was good, but he's a total "meh" historically for a team trying to win a title for a 2nd or 3rd best player.

I find posts like this funny because current Martin this season is at 19/3/3 55% TS. And while I don't think Martin is better than Terry...acting like there would be some huge difference in Martin vs Terry is just silly...there wouldn't be.

As for the rest of the Mavs.

Howard was really solid in the 06 playoffs.
Stackhouse was pretty bad overall...49% TS...
Harris was solid..nothing special
Damp was Damp...solid rebounder and defender
Diop was okay...typical backup center
Griffin was a solid defender but could do nothing else at all

Comparing that to the Wolves this year when healthy? Meh...I don't see a huge difference. Adelman is easily a better coach as well.

Mavs were probably 5% better. Considering there is no team in the West currently as good as the 06 Spurs...I see no reason why they couldn't make a run to the finals.

[eklip]

You can't be serious, title contenders?

You act like Jason Terry and Josh Howard are scrubs. You act like Dirk didn't shoot 39% in the 06 finals, and you act like he didn't choke in 07. Jesus ****ing christ, prime Dirk gets this team to the playoffs but no way in hell are they making a deep run. :facepalm
He didn't say that Dirk carried them to the championship in 2006.

Look at the series stats and tell me he didn't carry the Mavs team to the finals (especially against Spurs):
Memphis: http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2006_WC1.html#DAL-MEM
Spurs (2005 and 2007 champions): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2006_WCS.html#DAL-SAS
Suns: http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2006_WCF.html#DAL-PHO


And why are people still using FG% to show how efficient a player was and not TS%? Dirk was the best Mav in 2006 finals, but much worse than in the series before.

[Fire Colangelo]

You leave out that along with 19/3/3 from Terry...you also got 52% TS for the playoffs. Really gonna make a big deal out of a 19/3/3 player that is a negative defensively that needs a pick and roll to get quality shots?

Terry was good, but he's a total "meh" historically for a team trying to win a title for a 2nd or 3rd best player.

I find posts like this funny because current Martin this season is at 19/3/3 55% TS. And while I don't think Martin is better than Terry...acting like there would be some huge difference in Martin vs Terry is just silly...there wouldn't be.

As for the rest of the Mavs.

Howard was really solid in the 06 playoffs.
Stackhouse was pretty bad overall...49% TS...
Harris was solid..nothing special
Damp was Damp...solid rebounder and defender
Diop was okay...typical backup center
Griffin was a solid defender but could do nothing else at all

Comparing that to the Wolves this year when healthy? Meh...I don't see a huge difference. Adelman is easily a better coach as well.

Mavs were probably 5% better. Considering there is no team in the West currently as good as the 06 Spurs...I see no reason why they couldn't make a run to the finals.

Bro, I know you're a big stats guy, and stats indicate that Terry and Martin are pretty close. But seriously, they're not.

For example, Monta Ellis in 08 averaged 20/5/4 on 58%TS, while Brandon Roy in 09 averaged 22/5/5 on 57%TS. The stats indicate that they're similar in production, but Roy was 10 times the player Monta is.

There is really no player on the wolves that's as good as Jason Terry and Josh Howard on the Wolves right now.

Dampier sucks, but he did the one thing he was signed to do. Rebound and protect the rim. There's nobody on the Wolves that does that right now. Let's not act like prime Dirk is gonna anchor the Wolve's shitty defense and make Rubio/Brewer better shooters.

[DMAVS41]

Bro, I know you're a big stats guy, and stats indicate that Terry and Martin are pretty close. But seriously, they're not.

For example, Monta Ellis in 08 averaged 20/5/4 on 58%TS, while Brandon Roy in 09 averaged 22/5/5 on 57%TS. The stats indicate that they're similar in production, but Roy was 10 times the player Monta is.

There is really no player on the wolves that's as good as Jason Terry and Josh Howard on the Wolves right now.

Dampier sucks, but he did the one thing he was signed to do. Rebound and protect the rim. There's nobody on the Wolves that does that right now. Let's not act like prime Dirk is gonna anchor the Wolve's shitty defense and make Rubio/Brewer better shooters.

Bro...it's not just the stats. Terry is over-rated as **** here. Especially when going back to 06.

He's marginally better than a guy like Martin...trust me. Especially in a role that isn't going to ask him to do a ton...that role needs to be a guy scoring roughly 15 to 20 points a night on decent efficiency. Kevin Martin has proven he can do that...there is just no reason to think Martin couldn't produce roughly 90% or so of what Terry did.

And I'd argue that some of the other Wolves fit around Dirk even better than some of the Mavs. I like Rubio's fit next to Dirk actually...not like Harris could shoot threes back then. He didn't make one three the entire playoffs.

Like Luc, Buddinger...Barea would have been a nice much needed offensive spark plug off the bench. Like Cunningham's versatility...Dieng/Pek are just better than Damp/Diop...

And most of all...I like the fact of not having an inept head coach. Just subtracting Avery for a legit head coach would be huge, but giving Dirk a well above average coach like Adelman really matters.

[JellyBean]

Heck no. There is no need to get into some long debate. Plain and simple, no.

[DirkNowitzki07]

Terry got the majority of those 19ppg off Pick N Rolls with Dirk.

He was not that good..he was either scoring off picks from Dirk or became a spot up shooter and he sucked at defense badly.

[DMAVS41]

Terry got the majority of those 19ppg off Pick N Rolls with Dirk.

He was not that good..he was either scoring off picks from Dirk or became a spot up shooter and he sucked at defense badly.

People don't understand this. They honestly just don't get it. People think of Terry as this epic creator on offense. He just wasn't...never was. He was a knock down shooter and excelled at going hard right and pulling up on Dirk pick and rolls.

He shot 52% TS for the entirety of the 06 playoffs...that is not special. There is nothing even remotely noteworthy about a guy shooting 52% TS under 20ppg as the 2nd offensive option on a championship caliber team that doesn't do anything else well and is almost entirely reliant on sets and screens to get shots.

[TheMarkMadsen]

People don't understand this. They honestly just don't get it. People think of Terry as this epic creator on offense. He just wasn't...never was. He was a knock down shooter and excelled at going hard right and pulling up on Dirk pick and rolls.

He shot 52% TS for the entirety of the 06 playoffs...that is not special. There is nothing even remotely noteworthy about a guy shooting 52% TS under 20ppg as the 2nd offensive option on a championship caliber team that doesn't do anything else well and is almost entirely reliant on sets and screens to get shots.

He a 20/5 player his 2nd year in the league.. w/o Dirk

[DMAVS41]

He a 20/5 player his 2nd year in the league.. w/o Dirk

And Kevin Martin was a 24/5 62% TS player in his 4th year in the league...w/o Love

Your point?

[Droid101]

The Kevin Love hate on this site has officially hyperderped into infinity. I swear to god.

[TheMarkMadsen]

And Kevin Martin was a 24/5 62% TS player in his 4th year in the league...w/o Love

Your point?


my point is you're acting like Jason Terry was incapable of creating offensive w/o Dirk and that he was some type of scrub who was only good because he was running off of screens from Dirk :roll:

[DMAVS41]

The Kevin Love hate on this site has officially hyperderped into infinity. I swear to god.

What?

Almost everyone here agrees that Dirk wouldn't get them to the playoffs...

The Wolves have the best scoring differential of any team to ever miss the playoffs. LOL at thinking that isn't going to blow back on the superstar of the team in his absolute prime...being roughly 9 wins out of the playoff race.

It would be one thing to miss it by a game or something, but to have the best differential ever to miss the playoffs...and miss the playoffs by 9 wins? Damn...

[DMAVS41]

my point is you're acting like Jason Terry was incapable of creating offensive w/o Dirk and that he was some type of scrub who was only good because he was running off of screens from Dirk :roll:

Not at all. Scrub? Why is everything here always either a guy is amazing or he sucks.

Terry was a "meh" player for a title contending team. That doesn't mean he's a scrub. He's just not, in any real way, better than a guy like Kevin Martin.

You didn't realize that Martin did what Terry did and more did you? LOL

Also, if memory serves, the Hawks were ****ing dreadful those years and had horrid offenses.

Edit...just looked it up;

01 - 27th offense
02 - 24th offense
03 - 23rd offense
04 - 23rd offense

And during that time...Terry shot 53.7% TS from the field

From 05 through 11...Terry shot 57.1% TS from the field

Wonder why?

[Droid101]

What?

Almost everyone here agrees that Dirk wouldn't get them to the playoffs...

Maybe I've been glossing over those posts... but all I'm seeing here is "Eh, probably" to "TITLE CONTENDERS WITH DIRK."

Not what the responses should be, of "They would do worse with current Dirk than Current Love."

[Fire Colangelo]

He didn't say that Dirk carried them to the championship in 2006.

Look at the series stats and tell me he didn't carry the Mavs team to the finals (especially against Spurs):
Memphis: http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2006_WC1.html#DAL-MEM
Spurs (2005 and 2007 champions): http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2006_WCS.html#DAL-SAS
Suns: http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2006_WCF.html#DAL-PHO


And why are people still using FG% to show how efficient a player was and not TS%? Dirk was the best Mav in 2006 finals, but much worse than in the series before.

Dirk carried them against a Stoudemire-less Suns team. And even then, he had Josh Howard averaging 18/7, JT averaging 16/3/3, Stackhouse averaging 13/3/3. Tell me who on the Wolves match that kind of production.

All of a sudden Dirk is gonna make Rubio and Brewer raining 3's. All of a sudden Pek is gonna be a defensive beast. It ain't happening, Dirk isn't taking this shitty Wolves team to the finals.



Bro...it's not just the stats. Terry is over-rated as **** here. Especially when going back to 06.

He's marginally better than a guy like Martin...trust me. Especially in a role that isn't going to ask him to do a ton...that role needs to be a guy scoring roughly 15 to 20 points a night on decent efficiency. Kevin Martin has proven he can do that...there is just no reason to think Martin couldn't produce roughly 90% or so of what Terry did.

And I'd argue that some of the other Wolves fit around Dirk even better than some of the Mavs. I like Rubio's fit next to Dirk actually...not like Harris could shoot threes back then. He didn't make one three the entire playoffs.

Like Luc, Buddinger...Barea would have been a nice much needed offensive spark plug off the bench. Like Cunningham's versatility...Dieng/Pek are just better than Damp/Diop...

And most of all...I like the fact of not having an inept head coach. Just subtracting Avery for a legit head coach would be huge, but giving Dirk a well above average coach like Adelman really matters.

06 Jason Terry would be a boarderline top 5 SG in this league, Kevin Martin is seriously no where to be seen in these top SG conversations.

Barea, Budinger and Cunningham are shooting 47%TS.... for the season. Dieng emerged recently, and Pek is just not a good fit with Dirk IMO. Dampier was on the Mavs to do ONE thing, defend the paint (and grab some rebounds), and he was decent at it. Pek is not a paint defender, never will be. Dirk is an average defender, but he's not anchoring any defenses either.

Honestly, Adleman has fallen as a decent coach. He's been losing his touch with the Wolves. An above average coach does not miss the play offs 2-3 years in a row with Kevin Love + the decent supporting cast you claim he has. Either Adleman lost his touch, or the Wolves supporting cast is shit. Or both...

Maybe Rubio will be a good fit next to Dirk, but then again we all thought he'd be a good fit next to Love.

[DirkNowitzki07]

Maybe I've been glossing over those posts... but all I'm seeing here is "Eh, probably" to "TITLE CONTENDERS WITH DIRK."

Not what the responses should be, of "They would do worse with current Dirk than Current Love."

I seriously doubt that.

All Love is good at is putting up empty stats. Dirk makes his team mates better. Love does not.

Wolves would be a better team with 36 year old Dirk than with a prime Love.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk carried them against a Stoudemire-less Suns team. And even then, he had Josh Howard averaging 18/7, JT averaging 16/3/3, Stackhouse averaging 13/3/3. Tell me who on the Wolves match that kind of production.

All of a sudden Dirk is gonna make Rubio and Brewer raining 3's. All of a sudden Pek is gonna be a defensive beast. It ain't happening, Dirk isn't taking this shitty Wolves team to the finals.




06 Jason Terry would be a boarderline top 5 SG in this league, Kevin Martin is seriously no where to be seen in these top SG conversations.

Barea, Budinger and Cunningham are shooting 47%TS.... for the season. Dieng emerged recently, and Pek is just not a good fit with Dirk IMO. Dampier was on the Mavs to do ONE thing, defend the paint (and grab some rebounds), and he was decent at it. Pek is not a paint defender, never will be. Dirk is an average defender, but he's not anchoring any defenses either.

Honestly, Adleman has fallen as a decent coach. He's been losing his touch with the Wolves. An above average coach does not miss the play offs 2-3 years in a row with Kevin Love + the decent supporting cast you claim he has. Either Adleman lost his touch, or the Wolves supporting cast is shit. Or both...

Maybe Rubio will be a good fit next to Dirk, but then again we all thought he'd be a good fit next to Love.

Yet somehow the Wolves have played the 12th best defense this year despite playing the 4th fastest pace.

The Mavs in 06 played the 11th best defense and played the 27th fastest pace.

You really think Love is any better at all defensively than Dirk? I'd favor Dirk here, but they are even at worst.


I'm not saying the Wolves are better or something. In fact, I said they were worse, but they just isn't a big gap here.

And no, even if Adelman has lost half his touch, he's still a noticeably better coach than Avery.

With prime Dirk...this Wolves team, if healthy, would have won around 55 games and their road to the finals this year would be no more difficult than it was in 06. In fact, there is no team in the West currently as good as the 06 Spurs.

So could they reach the finals? Absolutely.

Would they? Who knows...

But acting like this Wolves team is just terrible is a joke. They have a really damn solid scoring differential with Love on the floor. And if they made the playoffs...that weakness of the team without Love wouldn't matter nearly as much as he'd be playing a ton of minutes. For example, Dirk in 06, played 43 minutes a game in the playoffs.

And again, I really think there would be some interesting lineup combinations around Dirk on that team.

I didn't see the numbers you posted in your post.

Why would you question the Wolves being able to match those?

Martin could easily match Terry's output in that series.
Pek could easily match Howard's output in that series
Brewer could easily match 13/3/3 for a series...

I just really think there is some massive over-rating of a guy like Josh Howard if we are at the point where you are drawing the conclusion that he's a noticeably better player than Pekovic. He just isn't better than a 17/9 58% TS center. I'm not gonna hate on Howard because he did a really good job in 06, but he's just not any different than Pek in terms of value.

[oarabbus]

How can people really try to argue Love is better than Dirk?

Dirk has missed the playoffs in 2 seasons only. Love has never made the playoffs. Both have been the best player on their teams. Old man Dirk is making it to the playoffs this season.

Regardless of Monta vs. Rubio and all that BS...


Dirk is 35 years old.

K Love is in his prime or near his peak at 25 years old.


Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>> Love

[DMAVS41]

Maybe I've been glossing over those posts... but all I'm seeing here is "Eh, probably" to "TITLE CONTENDERS WITH DIRK."

Not what the responses should be, of "They would do worse with current Dirk than Current Love."

The Dirk contender stuff is with prime Dirk.

The current Dirk stuff...it's abundantly clear to me that they would still miss the playoffs. I could see them being like 5 games better or 5 games worse...really not sure.

With prime Dirk though...this team would easily be in the playoffs and would have won around 55 plus imo...and would be absolutely capable of making a run in the playoffs if healthy.

[DMAVS41]

How can people really try to argue Love is better than Dirk?

Dirk has missed the playoffs in 2 seasons only. Love has never made the playoffs. Both have been the best player on their teams. Old man Dirk is making it to the playoffs this season.

Regardless of Monta vs. Rubio and all that BS...


Dirk is 35 years old.

K Love is in his prime or near his peak at 25 years old.


Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>> Love


FYI...Dirk missed the playoffs in 99, 00, and 13...