Wilt Chamberlain is THE MOST DOMINANT scorer in NBA history, period:

[CavaliersFTW]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBX9ikNzEk

That scoring prowess is superhuman.

[KyleKong]

Disrespecting Paul Bunyan like that.

:no:

Him standing next to Shaq though holy shit.

[moe94]

Keep up the great work, dude. Appreciate it.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Could you imagine Shaq or LeBron in that era? Even Hibbert would've put wilt to shame in that era.










Okay maybe not Hibbert, but still.

[sd3035]

Wilt would be lucky to average double digits in today's NBA

[atljonesbro]

The defense in that video :facepalm

[aj1987]

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Credit: Deuce Bigalow



GOAT stat padder though! :cheers:

[fpliii]

:applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

The defense in that video :facepalm
Every defense imaginable is thrown at him in that video because it covers footage spanning his entire basketball career, including the NCAA when they even were going so far as box and 1 ...know of any players in the league today that command a box and 1 defense?

[Psileas]

OP posts a 45 minute video.

The usual suspects enter and post 2-3 minutes later "look at that bad defense", "look at these 6'5 centers", etc...

If humans could come to valuable conclusions as quickly as the average ISH troll thinks he can, we'd have already conquered the whole Milky Way.

[AlphaWolf24]

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Credit: Deuce Bigalow



GOAT stat padder though! :cheers:

you must have missed the " post season is overrated thread"

Wilt's Playoff's numbers are all circumstantial..

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Just couldn't stay away from the hyperbole, huh? :oldlol:

Cool video, though..

[Trollsmasher]

Guy can't even dribble:facepalm

[CavaliersFTW]

Just couldn't stay away from the hyperbole, huh? :oldlol:

Cool video, though..
hyperbole = more thread traffic on ISH, you know that :D

[The-Legend-24]

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Credit: Deuce Bigalow



GOAT stat padder though! :cheers:
Oh shit!! :roll:

[Heatles201]

Wilt big drop off in finals/postseason : GOAT ALL TIME OMG WILT DOMINANT AF
Lebron big drop off in 2011 finals : LOL OVERRATED WOULD AVG 10 PPG IN 60'S
smfh salty cleveland fan

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt big drop off in finals/postseason : GOAT ALL TIME OMG WILT DOMINANT AF
Lebron big drop off in 2011 finals : LOL OVERRATED WOULD AVG 10 PPG IN 60'S
smfh salty cleveland fan
http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Charlie-Day-Salts-The-Snail-On-Its-Always-Sunny-In-Philadelphia.gif

This is not a Lebron thread.

[Young X]

I hate doing this because I hate when people badmouth old legends but how was he the most dominant scorer ever if his scoring dropped off in the post season every single year of his career? How can you rank him over someone like MJ who's scoring got BETTER in the playoffs when it mattered most? Isn't that the ultimate test of dominance?

[CavaliersFTW]

I hate doing this because I hate when people badmouth old legends but how was he the most dominant scorer ever if his scoring dropped off in the post season every single year of his career? How can you rank him over someone like MJ who's scoring got BETTER in the playoffs when it mattered most? Isn't that the ultimate test of dominance?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260704

Unlike many other players, Wilt changed the way he played throughout his career, dramatically so. And the ratio of games he played under these different roles regular season to playoffs differs. He played far more playoff games later in his career for a multitude of reasons not excluding the fact that the league literally extended the amount of games played in the playoffs as the league expanded later in his career. Wilt was still very much a dominant scorer in the playoffs, when it was his role.

[jongib369]

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Charlie-Day-Salts-The-Snail-On-Its-Always-Sunny-In-Philadelphia.gif

This is not a Lebron thread.


:roll:

http://37.media.tumblr.com/943fcaa0ee257c1244daacda1c86959c/tumblr_n41j9gXc5V1rbkm6po1_1280.png

[Random_Guy]

:applause:

[eklip]

Wilt's stats in the playoffs aren't good enough to call him the most dominant scorer in NBA history.

22.5 pts per game (17.2 pts per 36 min) on bad efficiency (.524 TS%).

Jordan in comparison:
33.4 pts per game (28.8 pts per 36 min) on .568 TS%.

Kareem:
24.3 pts per game (23.4 per 36 min) on .571 TS%.

Even Garnett had similar stats like Wilt (per 36 min) in the playoffs and he isn't regarded as an elite playoff scorer.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt's stats in the playoffs aren't good enough to call him the most dominant scorer in NBA history.

22.5 pts per game (17.2 pts per 36 min) on bad efficiency (.524 TS%).

Jordan in comparison:
33.4 pts per game (28.8 pts per 36 min) on .568 TS%.

Kareem:
24.3 pts per game (23.4 per 36 min) on .571 TS%.

Even Garnett had similar stats like Wilt (per 36 min) in the playoffs and he isn't regarded as an elite playoff scorer.
When Wilt's role was as a scorer in the playoffs (lThe role Jordan and Kareem had the benefit of staying in their ENTIRE careers) he was scoring 35ppg... when he shifted gears to be a facilitator averaging almost 6 assists per game he was still putting up 27ppg on .540

Dominant.

[CavaliersFTW]

Guy can't even dribble:facepalm
No three point range either :facepalm

[bukowski81]

Nice video, Wilt was a beast

[LAZERUSS]

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Credit: Deuce Bigalow



GOAT stat padder though! :cheers:

Of course this post-season "decline" needs some perspective.

How about this:

Wilt's SCORING seasons came from '60 thru '66. Furthermore, his team was so awful that he missed the post-season in his second greatest scoring season (44.8 ppg on a .528 eFG%.)

He faced RUSSELL (and his SWARMING Celtics) in FIVE series, and which covered 30 games...out of the 52 post-season games he played in that span.

Here were his overall numbers in those 30 games:

30.2 ppg, 28.7 rpg, .507 eFG%, and a .510 TS% (actually higher, but it will do for now.)

Now, before you rip his "efficiency" in those years...

In those FIVE post-seasons, the NBA averaged...get this... an eFG% of .413. Yes, those leagues shot, on AVERAGE, .413 from the floor. And the TS%'s combined for a .462 mark.

Just against RUSSELL, Chamberlain outshot the post-season LEAGUE AVERAGES, by nearly a STAGGERING 10%. And even with his relatively poor FT shooting, he outshot the LEAGUE AVERAGE TS% by 5%. And in reality, it was probably at least 6-7% since he played in a different era for FTAs.

Go thru Chamberlain's PEAK season, of 66-67, and he faced RUSSELL in 35 of his 67 post-season games (over HALF)...and here were his cumulative numbers...

28.9 ppg, 29.2 rpg, .511 eFG%, and a .514 TS% (again, it was actually considerably higher.)

In leagues that shot .415 from the field, and had a TS% of .471.

Again, in THIRTY-FIVE H2H playoff games against RUSSELL, Chamberlain outshot the LEAGUE AVERAGE by 10%, and nearly 5% in TS% (and again, it was probably closer to 7%.)

In his first 30 games against RUSSELL, he had 19 games of 30+, which included FIVE of 40+, and with a high of 50!


Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continued...

Here were Wilt's first round series scoring averages in the 60's

38.7 ppg

37.0 ppg

37.0 ppg

38.6 ppg (.559 eFG% in a post-season NBA that shot .420)

27.8 ppg

28.0 ppg

28.0 ppg (.617 eFG%...as well as 26.5 rpg, and 11 apg.)

25.5 ppg (outscoring Bellamy, and ousthooting him, .584 to .421.)

12.0 ppg

or 30 ppg for the entire decade of the 60's.

Furthermore, Chamberlain faced RUSSELL and THURMOND TEN times in his eighteen playoff series, in the 60's...again, well over HALF.

Take away those TEN series (and covering 61 of his 98 total playoff games...or a whopping TWO-THIRDS of his post-season games), and he averaged...get this...

37 games

30.6 ppg, and on a .532 FG%.


Just as an example, a prime Kareem faced an old Wilt and an aging Thurmond in FIVE playoff series from '71 thru '73. During the regular season in that span, he averaged 32.8 ppg on a .563 eFG%. In those 27 games against Nate and Wilt... 26.0 ppg on a ...get this... .450 eFG%.

Also, in Wilt's first round series against the Suns in '70...23.7 ppg, 20.3 rpg, and a .549 FG%.

And in Wilt's 71-72 first round series against the Bulls...14.5 ppg, 20.8 rpg, and a .629 FG%.


And for the record, Chamberlain had a TOTAL of FOUR 50+ point games, which ranks second all-time (and BTW, they came in his first 36 playoff games.) BUT, he had THREE of them in MUST-WIN games (and one of them against RUSSELL.)

And you can yet another 46 point MUST WIN game (against RUSSELL), as well as a 45 point MUST WIN Finals game.


And of course the "Wilt-bashers" will NEVER acknowledge that he was holding his OPPOSING CENTERS to WAY BELOW their normal efficiencies, as well. All while just CRUSHING them ALL on the glass.

You want some examples:

He held multiple All-star Johnny Kerr to a post-season FG% of .296.

He held Russell to playoff series FG%'s of .399, .397, .386, and even .358. (oh, and in those four series, Chamberlain shot .468, .500, .517, and .556.)

He held Thurmond to playoff series of .392, .373, and even .343 (a PEAK Thurmond BTW.) And in those three series, Wilt shot .500, .611, and .560.

He held Bellamy, in a season in which Bellamy shot .541 against the NBA during the regular season, to a .421 series 9and Wilt scored 25 ppg on a .584 FG% against him.)

And, of course, an OLD Chamberlain faced Kareem in two playoff series. In those two regular seasons, Kareem shot .577 and .574 against the NBA. Against Wilt in those two series... .481 and .457 (and only .414 in the last four pivotal games of that series.)

Oh, and as a sidenote, in Wilt's LAST season, he faced Kareem in six H2H games, and held him to a .450 FG% (while shooting .737 himself), in a league in which Kareem shot .554.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

The "Wilt-bashers" would have you believe that Chamberlain "choked" in his biggest games...


well, the numbers are in...and in ELIMINATION GAMES, Chamberlain is arguably the GOAT...


Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds


MJ averaged 31.3 ppg in his "elimination games", and Lebron has averaged 31.9 ppg in his...but Chamberlain was far more efficient from the field in his (and outshot the LEAGUE AVERAGES by even FAR greater margins.) And Wilt was CRUSHING everyone on the glass, and routinely holding his OPPOSING CENTERS, most all in the HOF, to WAY BELOW their normal efficiencies.


Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Here are Wilt's 37 Must-win, and series clinching games...


Wilt actually played in 37 "elimination games",...games where either his team faced elimination, or could have clinched the series:

1. W: 53-22-2, 24-42 FG/FGA

2. W: 50-35-2, 22-42

3. L: 26-24-0, 8-18

4. L: 33-23-1, 13-29

5. W: 56-35-1, 22-48

6. W: 32-21-1, 12-29

7. L: 22-22-3, 7-15

8. W: 39-30-?, 19-29

9. L: 30-27-2, 12-28

10. W: 38-26-5, 14-22, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

11. W: 30-26-4, 13-22, 13 blks (Triple-Double)

12. L: 30-32-2, 12-15

13. L: 46-34-?, 19-34

14. W: 18-27-9, 7-14

15. W: 29-36-13, 10-16, 7 blks (Triple-Double)

16. W: 24-23-4, 8-13

17. W: 25-27-3, 10-19

18. L: 28-30-7, 11-21

19. L: 20-27-8, 6-21

20. L: 14-34-5, 4-9

21. W: 11-25-1, 5-9

22. W: 16-29-3, 5-11, 16 blks (Triple-Double)

23. L: 8-18-4, 1-5

24. L: 18-27-3, 7-8

25. W: 36-14-3, 12-20

26. W: 12-26-11, 4-11, 11 blks (Quad-Double)

27. W: 30-27-6, 11-18, 11 blks (Triple-Double)

28. W: 45-27-3, 20-27

29. L: 21-24-4, 10-16

30. W: 25-19-9, 7-12

31. L: 23-12-4, 10-21

32. W: 8-31-8, 4-6

33. W: 20-24-2, 8-12, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

34. W: 24-29-4, 10-14, 8 blks

35. W: 21-28-4, 10-17, 8 blks

36. W: 5-22-7, 2-2

37. L: 23-21-3, 9-16


W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

29.5 ppg

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .430 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

H2H's and in "elimination games"...


I just finished his H2H elimination games with Russell, Thurmond, and Kareem. Once again, these games are elimination games, or clinching games (where they could eliminate their opponent.)

4 Games vs. Thurmond

Nate: 13.0 ppg, 17.2 rpg, 3.5 apg, .345 FG%
Wilt: 12.3 ppg, 22.0 rpg, 3.8 apg, .633 FG%


2 Games vs. Kareem

Kareem: 28.5 ppg, 20.0 rpg, 6.5 apg, .383 FG%
Wilt: 21.5 ppg, 18.0 rpg, 3.0 apg, .545 FG%


15 Games vs. Russell

Russell: 14.6 ppg, 24.9 rpg, 4.5 apg, .413 FG%
Wilt: 26.9 ppg, 28.3 rpg, 4.6 apg, .505 FG%

[CavaliersFTW]

Vintage Laz up in here :applause: , by the way what do you think of the vid?

[aj1987]

Does anyone want to guess how many points Wilt averaged in the '62 playoffs? The season he averaged 50 PPG. Answer in white text.

35. EPIC chock job against the Celtics as well.

GOAT stat padder.

[CavaliersFTW]

Does anyone want to guess how many points Wilt averaged in the '62 playoffs? The season he averaged 50 PPG. Answer in white text.

35. EPIC chock job against the Celtics as well.

GOAT stat padder.
Wilt Chamberlain

The only player in NBA history where a 35ppg playoff run is considered material to be held against him :applause: :facepalm :oldlol:

[navy]

Wilt Chamberlain

The only player in NBA history where a 35ppg playoff run is considered material to be held against him :applause: :facepalm :oldlol:
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5

/too easy

Seriously, if your going to bring up he put up 35 ppg in the playoffs (how many games was that by the way) you're gonna have to explain his terrible post season droppage as a whole.

But I can already tell, his role changed just like Lebron vs the Mavs and Celtics. :oldlol:

[CavaliersFTW]

Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5

/too easy

Seriously, if your going to bring up he put up 35 ppg in the playoffs (how many games was that by the way) you're gonna have to explain his terrible post season droppage as a whole.

But I can already tell, his role changed just like Lebron vs the Mavs and Celtics. :oldlol:
Already been covered, try and keep up

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260704

:cheers:

/too easy

[aj1987]

Wilt Chamberlain

The only player in NBA history where a 35ppg playoff run is considered material to be held against him :applause: :facepalm :oldlol:
Dropped from 50 PPG on 51% to 35 on 47% Dat choking though. MJ >>>> Wilt as a scorer and it's not even close. I remember you having a ball, when LeBron dropped from 26 to 17 in the '11 Finals. You still do, from time to time.

[LAZERUSS]

Dropped from 50 PPG on 51% to 35 on 47% Dat choking though. MJ >>>> Wilt as a scorer and it's not even close. I remember you having a ball, when LeBron dropped from 26 to 17 in the '11 Finals. You still do, from time to time.


First of all, Chamberlain took the same basic LAST PLACE roster that he inherited in his rookie season, to a 49-31 record...SINGLE-HANDEDLY. And it was his COACH who asked him to do it. In the first round, he took that team past the Nats (who had swept them the year before...and yes, had a better roster)...which included a MONSTER CLINCHING 56-35 game.

Secondly, during the regular season, and against Russell, he averaged 39.7 ppg on a .471 eFG% in ten H2H games. He single-handedly carried THAT roster, which was worse, players 2-6, and by a large margin, to a game seven, two point loss against a 60-20 Celtic team just loaded with HOFers. Oh, and in that series, he averaged 33.6 ppg on a .468 eFG%.

And before you bring up his 22 points in game seven, newspaper recaps mentioned that his DEFENSE kept his team in the game...and BTW, he scored Philly's last five straight points, tying the score with a few seconds. And, it was Sam Jones, hitting the game winner over the outstretched fingertips of...you guessed it...WILT (who evidently was guarding ALL the Boston players in that series.)


Again, Wilt played against RUSSELL and the HOF-laden Celtics EIGHT times in his playoff career.

So,...how did MJ do in his FOUR against the Bad Boys (the last of which came against a shell of team that had dominated him?)

'88. During the regular season, MJ averaged 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%.
Against the Pistons, in a series in which his team lost 4-1...27.4 ppg on a .491 FG%. In the clinching game five loss... 22 points on .456 FG%. CHOKE.

'89. During the regular season, MJ averaged 32.5 ppg on a .538 FG%. Against the Pistons in the ECF's, in a series in which his team lost 4-2...29.7 ppg on a .460 FG%. With the series tied, 2-2...MJ came up with a masterpiece. An 18 point game on 4-8 shooting in 46 minutes...and a nine point loss. The Pistons wrapped up the series in the next game. CHOKE.

'90. During the regular season, MJ averaged 33.6 ppg on a .526 FG%. Against the Pistons in the ECF's? A 4-3 series loss, and in which he averaged 32.1 ppg on a .467 FG%. With the series tied, 2-2, in game five he scores 22 points on 7-19 shooting, in a loss which basically gave the series to Detroit. CHOKE.

'91. During the regular season, MJ averaged 31.5 ppg on a .539 FG%. Against a Pistons team that is already in a solid decline (50-32, and would continue a major slide after that), he finally has a solid series against them, in a 4-0 sweep, with a 29.8 ppg, .535 series....still below his regular season numbers, though.

And MJ had a series against the Knicks, in which he shot .400 from the field. And in his last three Finals, he shot .455, .427, and get this... .415. In his rookie season, his Bulls lost to the Bucks, 3-1 in a series in which he averaged 29.7 ppg on a .436 FG%. His teams also went 0-6 against Bird in the playoffs, including shooting .400 in the '87 playoffs against them.


How about Shaq in his FIVE playoff series against the Spurs from '99 thru '04?

'99. Regular season: 26.3 ppg on a .576 average.
Against the Spurs in a sweeping 4-0 series loss... 23.8 ppg on a .493 FG%. And while Chamberlain gets ripped for his FT shooting...in a game two, a 79-76 loss, Shaq goes 2-10 from the line, and scores 16 points.

'01. Regular season: 28.7 ppg on a .572 FG%.
His Lakers sweep the Spurs, 4-0, but still, Shaq's numbers take a solid decline... 27.0 ppg on a .541 FG%.

'02. Regular season: 27.2 ppg on a .579 FG%.
Against the Spurs in the playoffs. Get this... 21.4 ppg on a .447 FG%. Hell, the Lakers won that series despite his massive choke job.

'03. Regular season. 27.5 on a .574 FG%.
Against the Spurs in a 4-2 series loss... 25.3 ppg on a .559 FG%.

'04. Regular season. 21.5 ppg on a .584 FG%.
Against the Spurs. 22.5 ppg on a .635 FG%. The ONLY series in FIVE, in which his numbers are better than his regular season.

Of course, Shaq was on the receiving end of SIX series SWEEPS in his career. And how about Shaq against the great Ostertag in '97? In a season in which he averaged 26.2 on a .557 FG%, he folded his tent against Ostertag, in a 4-1 series loss, with a 22.0 ppg, .494 FG% series.


How about Kareem, and against an old Wilt, and an aging Nate, in his FIVE playoff series against them from '71 thru '73?

'71. Regular season: 31.7 on a .577 FG%.
Against Nate in the playoffs... 27.8 ppg on a .486 FG%.
Against Wilt in the WCF's... 25.0 ppg on a .481 FG% (BTW, Chamberlain averaged 22 ppg on a .489 FG% against him.)

'72. Regular season: 34.8 ppg on a .574 FG%.
Against Nate in the playoffs... 22.8 ppg on, get this...a .405 FG%. BTW, Thurmond averaged 25.4 ppg on a .438 FG% against him. CHOKE.
Against Wilt in the WCF's... 33.7 ppg on a .457 FG%. And in the last four games of that series, he shot .414. CHOKE.

'73. Regular season. 30.0 ppg on a .554 FG%.
Against Nate in a shocking first round loss... 22.8 ppg on a .428 FG%.

Overall, KAJ averaged 32.8 ppg on a .563 FG% in the three regular seasons from '71 thru '73, combined. Against Nate and Wilt in those FIVE H2H series... 26.0 ppg on a ... .450 FG%. Or SEVEN ppg less, and an unfathomable 12% worse shooting.

Hmmm...Wilt's numbers declined some in his EIGHT playoff series against Russell (and he had series where they increased...especially against Russell during the regular season H2H's, and those post-season H2H's.)

MJ's numbers against the Pistons in his FOUR playoff series (three of them losses BTW)...a drop in EVERY series from his regular season numbers, and his shooting took a huge hit.

Shaq in his FIVE playoff series against the Spurs. A DECLINE in FOUR of them, and a huge decline in one of them.


But, yet Wilt was supposed to put up better numbers against the greatest defensive center in NBA history, and being swarmed by the Celtics in the process, in EIGHT playoff series...seven of which took place in either the first, or second, round?

[aj1987]

All those numbers and still only 2 rings to show for it. Ultimate choker and GOAT stat padder. KAJ and Russell >>>>>>>> Wilt and it's not even close.

[AirFederer]

I have not seen defence I would describe as swarming in tapes from the sixties...

[LAZERUSS]

All those numbers and still only 2 rings to show for it. Ultimate choker and GOAT stat padder. KAJ and Russell >>>>>>>> Wilt and it's not even close.

CRUSHED Russell in all EIGHT playoff series.

And, in his four years in the league with Kareem, he went to THREE Finals, while Kareem only went to one.

Of course, KAJ went the entire decade of the '70's with that ONE ring, and it wasn't until he played with MAGIC before he would win five more (the last two of which the Lakers woukld have won without him.) As a sidenote...during their 10 seasons in the league together, when Magic missed games, KAJ went 61-40, or a .604 winning percentage. When Kareem missed games, Magic went 24-8 (.750) without him. In fact, how about this stat... Magic's career W-L percentage is .740 (the highest in NBA history), and in all of his games without Kareem, and even including his part-time season in '96...he carried his teams to a .743 W-L%. Pretty much sums up Kareem's career doesn't it? Without Magic...one ring (and in the easiest run to a title in NBA history.) With Magic, ...CARRIED to FIVE more...

[LAZERUSS]

I have not seen defence I would describe as swarming in tapes from the sixties...

How many FULL games do we have of Wilt? ZERO. And only a handful of partials.

But how about this...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8646980&postcount=20

and this...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8647051&postcount=21


Even the CELTIC players were claiming that they attacked Wilt as a TEAM.

[aj1987]

CRUSHED Russell in all EIGHT playoff series.

Please remind me the ring count of each player...


And, in his four years in the league with Kareem, he went to THREE Finals, while Kareem only went to one.
Dem 6 rings doe.


Honestly though. 50 PPG on 51% to 35 PPG on 47%. :facepalm

No wonder Wilt never fouled out. Dude just flat out stopped playing defense when he got in foul trouble and must've been babied by the refs more than Harden. Imagine if there was internet back then.

Oh, and a bunch of his blocks that I've seen are clear goal tends.

GOAT statpadder!

[oarabbus]

Please remind me the ring count of each player...


Dem 6 rings doe.


Honestly though. 50 PPG on 51% to 35 PPG on 47%. :facepalm

No wonder Wilt never fouled out. Dude just flat out stopped playing defense when he got in foul trouble and must've been babied by the refs more than Harden. Imagine if there was internet back then.

Oh, and a bunch of his blocks that I've seen are clear goal tends.

GOAT statpadder!


I do agree with CavsFTW that wilt is the most dominant scorer in NBA history, period - I mean the guy dropped 100 and averaged 50ppg. I'm willing to believe Lazeruss about the foul thing but...

Would he average those numbers today? hell no!

One of my favorite is his blocks. Supposedly Wilt averaged something like 6-10 blocks per game... and of course all of them were perfect clean blocks. Yeah, sure he'd average as many blocks as Hakeem, Manute Bol, and Mark Eaton combined :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[LAZERUSS]

Please remind me the ring count of each player...


Dem 6 rings doe.


Honestly though. 50 PPG on 51% to 35 PPG on 47%. :facepalm

No wonder Wilt never fouled out. Dude just flat out stopped playing defense when he got in foul trouble and must've been babied by the refs more than Harden. Imagine if there was internet back then.

Oh, and a bunch of his blocks that I've seen are clear goal tends.

GOAT statpadder!


This entire post is a joke, but go ahead, find me the games that Wilt cost his team when he got in foul trouble? I want actual examples, and in which the article clearly claims that he quit playing when he got in foul trouble.

BTW, Wilt averaged 45.8 mpg in his regular season career... and get this... 2.0 PFs per game. And in his 160 post-season games, he averaged 47.2 mpg (yes, 47.2 mpg)...and with a 2.5 PF average in them.

You will be hard-pressed to find very many games in which Wilt even got to FIVE fouls.

But, how about this one...

[QUOTE]In the post-season, the Lakers defeated the Chicago Bulls in a sweep,[90] then went on to face the Milwaukee Bucks of young superstar center and regular-season MVP Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (he had changed his name) again. The matchup between Chamberlain and Abdul-Jabbar was hailed by LIFE magazine as the greatest matchup in all of sports. Chamberlain would help lead the Lakers past Jabbar and the Bucks in 6 games.[90] Particularly, Chamberlain was lauded for his performance in Game 6, which the Lakers won 104

[The-Legend-24]

Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
:roll:

Can we stop comparing this pathetic excuse of a "legend" to the real great ones.

Wilt, GOAT choker. :applause:

[East_Stone_Ya]

no shaq is

[aj1987]

This entire post is a joke, but go ahead, find me the games that Wilt cost his team when he got in foul trouble? I want actual examples, and in which the article clearly claims that he quit playing when he got in foul trouble.
When did I even say that? Comprehension trouble?


BTW, Wilt averaged 45.8 mpg in his regular season career... and get this... 2.0 PFs per game. And in his 160 post-season games, he averaged 47.2 mpg (yes, 47.2 mpg)...and with a 2.5 PF average in them.

You will be hard-pressed to find very many games in which Wilt even got to FIVE fouls.

But, how about this one...

And why is that? Probably because he wan't playing defense.

How can you average "6-10 blocks a game", play "GOAT level defense" and not even foul out once? Doesn't seem possible.


Anyways, lets get back to Wilt's choking and stat padding. 30 PPG in the RS, 22 in the Playoffs, and 18 in the Finals.

If a player plays like that today, he'd be labeled a choker and would be ranked out of the top 10.

@East_Stone_Ya, Shaq >>>>>>>>>>>> mental midget Wilt and it's not even close.

[Angel Face]

:sleeping

The guy who wore # 23 during his Bulls days is the most dominant scorer. Greatest playoff performer, greatest scorer, greatest player, the ultimate clutch player. GOAT gonna GOAT!

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/dam/assets/130213172915-michael-jordan-05717484-single-image-cut.jpg

[Psileas]

I do agree with CavsFTW that wilt is the most dominant scorer in NBA history, period - I mean the guy dropped 100 and averaged 50ppg. I'm willing to believe Lazeruss about the foul thing but...

Would he average those numbers today? hell no!

One of my favorite is his blocks. Supposedly Wilt averaged something like 6-10 blocks per game... and of course all of them were perfect clean blocks. Yeah, sure he'd average as many blocks as Hakeem, Manute Bol, and Mark Eaton combined :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

And yet, you can't show instances of anyone claiming he would drop the same numbers today, while I can show you cases of claims that he'd be a "15/8 player", "top 10 at best", etc. Even Lazeruss' estimations, which are the most Wilt-optimal, aren't as high as what he produced. So, why are you trying to blame a group which doesn't even exist here, while leaving the other group, which does exist, blameless?
Nobody claimed all his blocks were clean, either. If you cared to watch his games, you'd see multiple goaltend violations called on him.

[Dro]

First of all, Chamberlain took the same basic LAST PLACE roster that he inherited in his rookie season, to a 49-31 record...SINGLE-HANDEDLY. And it was his COACH who asked him to do it. In the first round, he took that team past the Nats (who had swept them the year before...and yes, had a better roster)...which included a MONSTER CLINCHING 56-35 game.

Secondly, during the regular season, and against Russell, he averaged 39.7 ppg on a .471 eFG% in ten H2H games. He single-handedly carried THAT roster, which was worse, players 2-6, and by a large margin, to a game seven, two point loss against a 60-20 Celtic team just loaded with HOFers. Oh, and in that series, he averaged 33.6 ppg on a .468 eFG%.

And before you bring up his 22 points in game seven, newspaper recaps mentioned that his DEFENSE kept his team in the game...and BTW, he scored Philly's last five straight points, tying the score with a few seconds. And, it was Sam Jones, hitting the game winner over the outstretched fingertips of...you guessed it...WILT (who evidently was guarding ALL the Boston players in that series.)


Again, Wilt played against RUSSELL and the HOF-laden Celtics EIGHT times in his playoff career.

So,...how did MJ do in his FOUR against the Bad Boys (the last of which came against a shell of team that had dominated him?)

'88. During the regular season, MJ averaged 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%.
Against the Pistons, in a series in which his team lost 4-1...27.4 ppg on a .491 FG%. In the clinching game five loss... 22 points on .456 FG%. CHOKE.

'89. During the regular season, MJ averaged 32.5 ppg on a .538 FG%. Against the Pistons in the ECF's, in a series in which his team lost 4-2...29.7 ppg on a .460 FG%. With the series tied, 2-2...MJ came up with a masterpiece. An 18 point game on 4-8 shooting in 46 minutes...and a nine point loss. The Pistons wrapped up the series in the next game. CHOKE.

'90. During the regular season, MJ averaged 33.6 ppg on a .526 FG%. Against the Pistons in the ECF's? A 4-3 series loss, and in which he averaged 32.1 ppg on a .467 FG%. With the series tied, 2-2, in game five he scores 22 points on 7-19 shooting, in a loss which basically gave the series to Detroit. CHOKE.

'91. During the regular season, MJ averaged 31.5 ppg on a .539 FG%. Against a Pistons team that is already in a solid decline (50-32, and would continue a major slide after that), he finally has a solid series against them, in a 4-0 sweep, with a 29.8 ppg, .535 series....still below his regular season numbers, though.

And MJ had a series against the Knicks, in which he shot .400 from the field. And in his last three Finals, he shot .455, .427, and get this... .415. In his rookie season, his Bulls lost to the Bucks, 3-1 in a series in which he averaged 29.7 ppg on a .436 FG%. His teams also went 0-6 against Bird in the playoffs, including shooting .400 in the '87 playoffs against them.


How about Shaq in his FIVE playoff series against the Spurs from '99 thru '04?

'99. Regular season: 26.3 ppg on a .576 average.
Against the Spurs in a sweeping 4-0 series loss... 23.8 ppg on a .493 FG%. And while Chamberlain gets ripped for his FT shooting...in a game two, a 79-76 loss, Shaq goes 2-10 from the line, and scores 16 points.

'01. Regular season: 28.7 ppg on a .572 FG%.
His Lakers sweep the Spurs, 4-0, but still, Shaq's numbers take a solid decline... 27.0 ppg on a .541 FG%.

'02. Regular season: 27.2 ppg on a .579 FG%.
Against the Spurs in the playoffs. Get this... 21.4 ppg on a .447 FG%. Hell, the Lakers won that series despite his massive choke job.

'03. Regular season. 27.5 on a .574 FG%.
Against the Spurs in a 4-2 series loss... 25.3 ppg on a .559 FG%.

'04. Regular season. 21.5 ppg on a .584 FG%.
Against the Spurs. 22.5 ppg on a .635 FG%. The ONLY series in FIVE, in which his numbers are better than his regular season.

Of course, Shaq was on the receiving end of SIX series SWEEPS in his career. And how about Shaq against the great Ostertag in '97? In a season in which he averaged 26.2 on a .557 FG%, he folded his tent against Ostertag, in a 4-1 series loss, with a 22.0 ppg, .494 FG% series.


How about Kareem, and against an old Wilt, and an aging Nate, in his FIVE playoff series against them from '71 thru '73?

'71. Regular season: 31.7 on a .577 FG%.
Against Nate in the playoffs... 27.8 ppg on a .486 FG%.
Against Wilt in the WCF's... 25.0 ppg on a .481 FG% (BTW, Chamberlain averaged 22 ppg on a .489 FG% against him.)

'72. Regular season: 34.8 ppg on a .574 FG%.
Against Nate in the playoffs... 22.8 ppg on, get this...a .405 FG%. BTW, Thurmond averaged 25.4 ppg on a .438 FG% against him. CHOKE.
Against Wilt in the WCF's... 33.7 ppg on a .457 FG%. And in the last four games of that series, he shot .414. CHOKE.

'73. Regular season. 30.0 ppg on a .554 FG%.
Against Nate in a shocking first round loss... 22.8 ppg on a .428 FG%.

Overall, KAJ averaged 32.8 ppg on a .563 FG% in the three regular seasons from '71 thru '73, combined. Against Nate and Wilt in those FIVE H2H series... 26.0 ppg on a ... .450 FG%. Or SEVEN ppg less, and an unfathomable 12% worse shooting.

Hmmm...Wilt's numbers declined some in his EIGHT playoff series against Russell (and he had series where they increased...especially against Russell during the regular season H2H's, and those post-season H2H's.)

MJ's numbers against the Pistons in his FOUR playoff series (three of them losses BTW)...a drop in EVERY series from his regular season numbers, and his shooting took a huge hit.

Shaq in his FIVE playoff series against the Spurs. A DECLINE in FOUR of them, and a huge decline in one of them.


But, yet Wilt was supposed to put up better numbers against the greatest defensive center in NBA history, and being swarmed by the Celtics in the process, in EIGHT playoff series...seven of which took place in either the first, or second, round?
:applause: Sometimes there is just no comeback for knowledge and well thought out research....

[CavaliersFTW]

:sleeping

The guy who wore # 23 during his Bulls days is the most dominant scorer. Greatest playoff performer, greatest scorer, greatest player, the ultimate clutch player. GOAT gonna GOAT!

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/dam/assets/130213172915-michael-jordan-05717484-single-image-cut.jpg
:facepalm :oldlol:

compared to whom, other guards? Yes I'd agree if that was the case. But he's not as dominant a scorer as prime Kareem, prime playoffs Shaq, or prime Wilt. Do you know what the word dominant means? Look at his numbers in his prime, look at the WAY he scored the ball, and compare to the guys I just mentioned. The guys I mentioned destroyed oponents from the inside out. Jordan attacked from the outside in, by definition the three most dominant scoring centers are putting up points in a more dominant manner.

Playoffs, he's one of the best performers, but there are other guys in his company there like Jerry West that actually make it debatable. Greatest scorer?... well not really seeing as how Wilt holds all the peak records and Kareem has the longevity/volume record.

Clutch is also debatable with other players... The fact is Jordan is "in the conversation" for several categories, but hands down the best? No.

Don't try to sell Michael Jordan for things he isn't. He IS one of if not the greatest all around perimeter players of all time. But he is NOT the absolute pinacle at every facet of the game of basketball.

[CavaliersFTW]

Elvin Hayes gets baptized :bowdown:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_l-fpcJn_E8/U062QLKWNuI/AAAAAAAAFDg/3nPtVZm66ps/s800/dunk1.jpg

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1148045/index.htm

[QUOTE=Sports Illustrated]"Last summer, while Russell was in Los Angeles making a TV film," Hayes said, "he spent three days coaching me. One thing he told me was that Wilt was going to get his 20, 30 points a game, and he was going to get his rebounds, and nobody in the world was going to stop him. If Wilt wants to score, well, he's just going to score. Where you have to stop him is on his assists, his assists up the middle. Bill said if you don't stop him there he'll destroy you."

Hayes began to laugh. [B]"That dunk shot of Wilt's, it's inhuman. Not a man in the world can stop that, and I'd sure hate to be the one that had to try. One time I was under the basket when he dunked a shot. The force was unbelievable, unreal. I remember Nate Thurmond telling me

[Asukal]

Elvin Hayes gets baptized :bowdown:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_l-fpcJn_E8/U062QLKWNuI/AAAAAAAAFDg/3nPtVZm66ps/s800/dunk1.jpg

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1148045/index.htm

Oh wow such dominance!!! Amazing!!! :bowdown:

2 rings doe... :rolleyes:

[dankok8]

@LAZERUSS

All those Jordan, Shaq, and Kareem numbers are nice and well. They indeed struggled against those teams. But who from their own eras was anywhere near as good?

For Wilt we know West and Baylor (pre-injury) were putting up far better scoring numbers in the playoffs including against the Celtics. Oscar and Pettit were certainly in the same tier of playoff dominance as well.


Postseason Scoring vs. Boston:

West ('62 to '70) - 32.7 ppg on 55.1 %TS (45 games)

Baylor ('62 and '63) - 37.5 ppg on 52.1 %TS (13 games)

Oscar ('63, '64, and '66) - 31.4 ppg on 53.8 %TS (17 games)

Wilt ('60, '62, '64, '65, and '66) - 30.5 ppg on 52.2 %TS (30 games)

Postseason Scoring Overall:

West ('62-'70) - 31.8 ppg on 48.3 %FG/55.6 %TS (108 games)

Baylor ('60-'63) - 35.8 ppg on 45.3 %FG/52.1 %TS (47 games)

Oscar ('62-'67) - 29.7 ppg on 46.1 %FG/56.6 %TS (39 games)

Wilt ('60-'66) - 32.8 ppg on 50.5 %FG/52.0 %TS (52 games)

How did Jordan's contemporaries score against the Bad Boys?

Nique in '87: 22.2 ppg on 38.2 %FG
Bird in '87: 27.1 ppg on 48.6 %FG
Bird in '88: 19.8 ppg on 35.0 %FG
Drexler in '90: 26.4 ppg on 54.3 %FG
Nique in '91: 20.8 ppg on 37.2 %FG

Apart from Clyde all these others players struggled mightily often shooting under 40% from the floor and scoring almost 7-10 points below their averages. Suddenly Jordan's performances especially in '89 and '90 look pretty damn awesome!

How did Shaq's contemporaries score against the Spurs?

KG in '99: 21.8 ppg on 44.3 %FG
KG in '01: 21.0 ppg on 46.6 %FG
Dirk in '01: 23.0 ppg on 44.6 %FG
Dirk in '03: 25.3 ppg on 43.1 %FG

Again the frontcourt duo of Duncan and Robinson stopped other players in their tracks. Shaq still had three of those five series you posted when he dominated them. It was also the Lakers strategy to go to Kobe more because the Spurs had no answer for him.

How did Kareem's contemporaries score against Thurmond?

No player ever including prime Chamberlain ever had a playoff series averaging 27.8 ppg on 48.6% shooting against Nate. Heck no player ever had a series averaging 20+ ppg against Nate the Great.


So yes Jordan, Kareem, and Shaq had their struggles against certain opponents but they still did FAR BETTER than any of their contemporaries. That isn't the case with Wilt who was outperformed by West and pre-injury Baylor at the very least.

[CavaliersFTW]

Oh wow such dominance!!! Amazing!!! :bowdown:

2 rings doe... :rolleyes:
2 ringz,

2 more rings than

*Magic/Oscar-less Kareem
*Jackson-less Kobe
*Pippen-less Jordan
*Collusion-less Lebron

:applause:

[Asukal]

2 ringz,

2 more rings than

*Magic/Oscar-less Kareem
*Jackson-less Kobe
*Pippen-less Jordan
*Collusion-less Lebron

:applause:

Still only 2 doe... :rolleyes:

I guess he was too busy boning 20000 women and fighting mountain lions instead of hitting the gym. :rolleyes:

[Andrei89]

All I see in the video is this:

1. Players who cant dribble for shit and have terrible ball control
2. Players who are 6 foot
3. Players who don't contest
4. Players in the post who play horrible defense
5. Lots of white players who , although they are white, can't shoot
6. Wilt Chamberlain no post moves whatsoever but still gets buckets because of awful opponents
7. Wilt Chamberlain looks awkward dribbling, posting up and receiving the pass
8. The only opponent who would even come close to an NBA standard center of now was Bill Russel and he completely dominated that Wilt Chamberdain.

Not trolling here but in, all honesty, Tyson Chandler would be as good as Chambadain if he played in that era.


Stop shoving Wilt dwon our throats, 97% of the NBA fan base cannot take pick-up games serious. Because that is what it was during those times: pick up games where all of a sudden, a 7 foot players appears and you are all 5 foot 11.

[LAZERUSS]

@LAZERUSS

All those Jordan, Shaq, and Kareem numbers are nice and well. They indeed struggled against those teams. But who from their own eras was anywhere near as good?

For Wilt we know West and Baylor (pre-injury) were putting up far better scoring numbers in the playoffs including against the Celtics. Oscar and Pettit were certainly in the same tier of playoff dominance as well.



How did Jordan's contemporaries score against the Bad Boys?

Nique in '87: 22.2 ppg on 38.2 %FG
Bird in '87: 27.1 ppg on 48.6 %FG
Bird in '88: 19.8 ppg on 35.0 %FG
Drexler in '90: 26.4 ppg on 54.3 %FG
Nique in '91: 20.8 ppg on 37.2 %FG

Apart from Clyde all these others players struggled mightily often shooting under 40% from the floor and scoring almost 7-10 points below their averages. Suddenly Jordan's performances especially in '89 and '90 look pretty damn awesome!

How did Shaq's contemporaries score against the Spurs?

KG in '99: 21.8 ppg on 44.3 %FG
KG in '01: 21.0 ppg on 46.6 %FG
Dirk in '01: 23.0 ppg on 44.6 %FG
Dirk in '03: 25.3 ppg on 43.1 %FG

Again the frontcourt duo of Duncan and Robinson stopped other players in their tracks. Shaq still had three of those five series you posted when he dominated them. It was also the Lakers strategy to go to Kobe more because the Spurs had no answer for him.

How did Kareem's contemporaries score against Thurmond?

No player ever including prime Chamberlain ever had a playoff series averaging 27.8 ppg on 48.6% shooting against Nate. Heck no player ever had a series averaging 20+ ppg against Nate the Great.


So yes Jordan, Kareem, and Shaq had their struggles against certain opponents but they still did FAR BETTER than any of their contemporaries. That isn't the case with Wilt who was outperformed by West and pre-injury Baylor at the very least.


Interesting how you "cherry-pick" these "prime" players, and then claim that Wilt never averaged 27.8 ppg on .486 shooting against Thurmond in the playoffs. A "scoring" Wilt never faced Thurmond in the post-season, either. We know that he was putting up more 30+ point games against Nate, in a span of just 12 games, than KAJ did against a fulltime Thurmond in his 35 H2H's. We also know that Kareem nevre outscored Nate by margins of 38-15 and 45-13 either. We know that Wilt had seasons of 21 ppg on .633 shooting against Nate, another season of 29 ppg (and very likely on 50+% shooting.) And we know that in his three H2H series with Thurmond, he slaughtered Nate,,,crushing him on the glass, and outshooting him from the field by staggering margins of .500 to .392, .611 to .373, and blasted a PEAK Thurmond by a .560 to .343 margin. Meanwhile, your boy KAJ put up three series against Nate of .486, .428, and .405 (and was outscored and OUTSHOT from the field by Nate in that one...something that Thurmond never came close to doing against Wilt...much less a PRIME Chamberlain.)

No one dominated Thurmond, Russell, Reed, or Bellamy, like a prime Chamberlain did. Not even close.


As for your ridiculous West and Baylor comparisons...Russell was never the PRIMARY defender on them, and you know it. That is truly laughable. That is the equivalent of claiming that Laimbeer was the one holding MJ down in their four series. So, you have Russell guarding BOTH West and Baylor (which I guess would explain their 35 ppg numbers, since Russell must have been chasing after BOTH of them), and yet, Russell couldn't defend Wilt by HIMSELF. And you and I both know I could post comments from Russell's teammates to confirm that fact. And please, quit with this TS% NONSENSE. We BOTH know that Wilt's EFFECTIVE TS% was CONSIDERABLY higher than his actual TS%. In fact, adding 1-2% is probably under-rating his actual numbers.


As for the rest...I don't care that MJ, or Shaq, or Kareem did better than their contemporaries against these "rivals." Their numbers dropped DRAMATICALLY. KAJ's scoring and FG% dropped by UNFATHOMABLE margins against Wilt and Nate.

So, the "Wilt-bashers", including yourself, had better acknowledge that Wilt facing RUSSELL and the greatest dynasty in NBA history EIGHT TIMES was the key reason why his overall playoff scoring and FG%'s dropped (even though a PRIME Wilt averaged 30.2 ppg on a .507 FG% against Russell...in leagues that shot less than .420 overall.)

Had MJ, Shaq, and Kareem battled their best rivals EIGHT times (particularly in their first or second rounds...as KAJ and Wilt did), their playoff numbers, and team successes, would surely have dipped even further.

[LAZERUSS]

Still only 2 doe... :rolleyes:

I guess he was too busy boning 20000 women and fighting mountain lions instead of hitting the gym. :rolleyes:

Kareem only won ONE ring as THE man. You could make an argument that of possibly two, but in the '80 title-clinching game, he was watching the game from his couch, when Magic went berserk, and carried LA to a title. The rest of the decade, it was MAGIC won was leading to titles. In fact, you could argue that the '87 Lakers were so good, that they would have won a title without KAJ, and they CERTAINLY would have won a title without him and his AWFUL play in '88.

But, while Wilt was "losing" rings to Russell nine times in their ten seasons together, including 1-7 in H2H's...

how about Kareem?

"Lost" to Reed in '70.
"Lost to Wilt in '72.
Lost to Thurmond in '73.
Lost to Cowens in '74.
Didn't make the playoffs in '75.
Didn't make the playoffs in '76.
Lost to Walton in '77.
Lost to Webster in '78.
Lost to Sikma in '79.
Lost to Moses in '81 (got killed actually.)
Lost to Moses in '83 (was demolished)
Lost to Parish in '84.
Lost to Sampson in '86.
Lost to Laimbeer in '89.

How come?

[CavaliersFTW]

All I see in the video is this:

1. Players who cant dribble for shit and have terrible ball control
2. Players who are 6 foot
3. Players who don't contest
4. Players in the post who play horrible defense
5. Lots of white players who , although they are white, can't shoot
6. Wilt Chamberlain no post moves whatsoever but still gets buckets because of awful opponents
7. Wilt Chamberlain looks awkward dribbling, posting up and receiving the pass
8. The only opponent who would even come close to an NBA standard center of now was Bill Russel and he completely dominated that Wilt Chamberdain.

Not trolling here but in, all honesty, Tyson Chandler would be as good as Chambadain if he played in that era.


Stop shoving Wilt dwon our throats, 97% of the NBA fan base cannot take pick-up games serious. Because that is what it was during those times: pick up games where all of a sudden, a 7 foot players appears and you are all 5 foot 11.
:roll: what drivel.

Tyson Chandler's only 'move' is going backdoor for a lob... I've never seen him attempt anything from the right block or left block in isolation, you didn't watch this video at all, know how I know you didn't?

Point out several specific clips (mark the time) of these specific accusations.

Be preparred however, for me to retaliate with 10 more specific examples that serve to counter what you assert :cheers:

[jongib369]

:roll: what drivel.

Tyson Chandler's only 'move' is going backdoor for a lob... I've never seen him attempt anything from the right block or left block in isolation, you didn't watch this video at all, know how I know you didn't?

Point out several specific clips (mark the time) of these specific accusations.

Be preparred however, for me to retaliate with 10 more specific examples that serve to counter what you assert :cheers:
Sadly reminds me of someone on ESPN, possibly a former player saying Wilt looks no more athletic or more skilled than Tyson...Forgot who it was but it might of been Jalen Rose with a couple other people agreeing with him. SKip was the one defending him...lol

[LAZERUSS]

Sadly reminds me of someone on ESPN, possibly a former player saying Wilt looks no more athletic or more skilled than Tyson...Forgot who it was but it might of been Jalen Rose with a couple other people agreeing with him. SKip was the one defending him...lol

In this past season, Chandler has taken 75% of his shots from inside three feet. And out of those 241 shots "at the rim", he made 106 of 113 dunk attempts.

From 3-10 feet...9-40, ...or a 22.5% FG% shooter...

[dankok8]

Interesting how you "cherry-pick" these "prime" players, and then claim that Wilt never averaged 27.8 ppg on .486 shooting against Thurmond in the playoffs. A "scoring" Wilt never faced Thurmond in the post-season, either. We know that he was putting up more 30+ point games against Nate, in a span of just 12 games, than KAJ did against a fulltime Thurmond in his 35 H2H's. We also know that Kareem nevre outscored Nate by margins of 38-15 and 45-13 either. We know that Wilt had seasons of 21 ppg on .633 shooting against Nate, another season of 29 ppg (and very likely on 50+% shooting.) And we know that in his three H2H series with Thurmond, he slaughtered Nate,,,crushing him on the glass, and outshooting him from the field by staggering margins of .500 to .392, .611 to .373, and blasted a PEAK Thurmond by a .560 to .343 margin. Meanwhile, your boy KAJ put up three series against Nate of .486, .428, and .405 (and was outscored and OUTSHOT from the field by Nate in that one...something that Thurmond never came close to doing against Wilt...much less a PRIME Chamberlain.)

No one dominated Thurmond, Russell, Reed, or Bellamy, like a prime Chamberlain did. Not even close.


As for your ridiculous West and Baylor comparisons...Russell was never the PRIMARY defender on them, and you know it. That is truly laughable. That is the equivalent of claiming that Laimbeer was the one holding MJ down in their four series. So, you have Russell guarding BOTH West and Baylor (which I guess would explain their 35 ppg numbers, since Russell must have been chasing after BOTH of them), and yet, Russell couldn't defend Wilt by HIMSELF. And you and I both know I could post comments from Russell's teammates to confirm that fact. And please, quit with this TS% NONSENSE. We BOTH know that Wilt's EFFECTIVE TS% was CONSIDERABLY higher than his actual TS%. In fact, adding 1-2% is probably under-rating his actual numbers.


As for the rest...I don't care that MJ, or Shaq, or Kareem did better than their contemporaries against these "rivals." Their numbers dropped DRAMATICALLY. KAJ's scoring and FG% dropped by UNFATHOMABLE margins against Wilt and Nate.

So, the "Wilt-bashers", including yourself, had better acknowledge that Wilt facing RUSSELL and the greatest dynasty in NBA history EIGHT TIMES was the key reason why his overall playoff scoring and FG%'s dropped (even though a PRIME Wilt averaged 30.2 ppg on a .507 FG% against Russell...in leagues that shot less than .420 overall.)

Had MJ, Shaq, and Kareem battled their best rivals EIGHT times (particularly in their first or second rounds...as KAJ and Wilt did), their playoff numbers, and team successes, would surely have dipped even further.

Cherry-picked what? :oldlol: I took the performances of other great scorers that faced the Bad Boys from '87-'91 and Spurs from '99-'03... If I missed someone I'll be happy to add them.

I've already debunked your Russell argument...

Wilt playoff average vs. everyone ('60-'69) - 26.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, 4.4 apg on 52.0 %FG
Wilt playoff average vs. Russell ('60-'69) - 25.7 ppg, 28.0 rpg, 4.2 apg on 49.2 %FG

Minor difference...

And your "true TS%" argument has also been destroyed. fpliii again posted the data and we see that in Wilt's scoring years the difference is less than 1% for every single year... And of course Wilt's contemporaries would benefit just as much from this adjustment? :oldlol:

Myself and other posters have also systematically shown the year-by-year decline in Wilt's production in the playoffs and finals and shown that he was at best #3 postseason scorer in his own era. Now you're trying to extend the same argument to MJ, Kareem, and Shaq and you've failed miserably. Those players were almost always light years better against their toughest competition than any other players who faced them.

[jzek]

Sorry, if Shaq played in Wilt's era, Shaq will double or even triple Wilt's stats.

[CavaliersFTW]

Sorry, if Shaq played in Wilt's era, Shaq will double or even triple Wilt's stats.
Sorry, if Anthony Davis played in Shaq's era he would triple, or even quadruple Shaq's stats.

[Iceman#44]

Wilt=goat Scorer

[Big#50]

Wilt was ****ing huge. No doubt he could have been great in this era. Not with the skills he had back in those days, but with modern coaching and all the mess, he would have improved every facet of his game. 7'1-315 he was stronger than Shaq. Way stronger. Shaq seemed strong because he was allowed to drop shoulders and elbows on players he outweighed by 50 lbs. Wilt was an amazing athlete. No player compares to him. Just a freak of a man.

But he did not compete at 100% all the time. He didnt want the pressure of a close game. He folded at times. He admitted this.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt was ****ing huge. No doubt he could have been great in this era. Not with the skills he had back in those days, but with modern coaching and all the mess, he would have improved every facet of his game. 7'1-315 he was stronger than Shaq. Way stronger. Shaq seemed strong because he was allowed to drop shoulders and elbows on players he outweighed by 50 lbs. Wilt was an amazing athlete. No player compares to him. Just a freak of a man.

But he did not compete at 100% all the time. He didnt want the pressure of a close game. He folded at times. He admitted this.
Hold up for a second... your marveling at Wilt's size and strength, great, but watch the footage man - watch the methods he's using to create space, finish, etc. The skills he had back in those days are no doubt superior to any player comparable to his size that has EVER played the game, past or MODERN. We're talking a Mark Eaton sized dude with athleticism, yes, but he's shooting jumpers, finger rolls, up and unders, spins, turnarounds from either shoulder, jesus what more do you want to see!? What "modern" skillset do you speak of that he "should" have that he doesn't display there!? Nobody today who is 6-11 260+ let alone 7-1 300+ has that level of skill he was showcasing in that footage. What are these mysterious modern "skills" that would allegedly improve his game so much.

[oarabbus]

And yet, you can't show instances of anyone claiming he would drop the same numbers today, while I can show you cases of claims that he'd be a "15/8 player", "top 10 at best", etc. Even Lazeruss' estimations, which are the most Wilt-optimal, aren't as high as what he produced. So, why are you trying to blame a group which doesn't even exist here, while leaving the other group, which does exist, blameless?
Nobody claimed all his blocks were clean, either. If you cared to watch his games, you'd see multiple goaltend violations called on him.

I think he'd be the best C in the game today or a top 3 at absolute worst.


I just find it ridiculous that people say "Wilt got 15 blocks in that game" "If blocks were tracked back then Wilt would have averaged 8+ blocks" yeah ****ing right.

[Big#50]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

The skills he had back in those days are superior to any player comparable to his size that has ever played the game. What ****ing skillset do you think he should have? Nobody today who is 6-11 260+ let alone 7-1 300+ can do those things he was doing then
He looked awkward receiving passes in the post. He can't dribble. Slow ass release on his shots. I saw all that in 5 mins of footage. Maybe youve seen way more. Wilt could improve all that in today's world. And with his strength and athleticism he would be unstoppable like Shaq was. Maybe even more. I stopped reading on Wilt long time ago. But as a kid I was in total amazement.

[CavaliersFTW]

I think he'd be the best C in the game today or a top 3 at absolute worst.


I just find it ridiculous that people say "Wilt got 15 blocks in that game" "If blocks were tracked back then Wilt would have averaged 8+ blocks" yeah ****ing right.
Kansas tracked all his career blocked shots, even though the NCAA officially didn't. It was over 6 and a half a game playing pre-shot clock era stall-ball with 8 less minutes than he played in the NBA. If his increase in production scoring/rebounding wise from NCAA to NBA is any reflection of his increase in production blocking shots making that same jump, than he probably was blocking that many shots in his heyday.

[CavaliersFTW]

He looked awkward receiving passes in the post. He can't dribble. Slow ass release on his shots. I saw all that in 5 mins of footage. Maybe youve seen way more. Wilt could improve all that in today's world. And with his strength and athleticism he would be unstoppable like Shaq was. Maybe even more. I stopped reading on Wilt long time ago. But as a kid I was in total amazement.
Maybe I've seen way more? watch the video in the OP, start to finish... his scoring game is not going to be improved upon, thus 50ppg, 100 points, etc, you don't think he mastered the game of scoring in basketball? Seriously? Watch the footage I posted or don't comment in this thread :facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

Cherry-picked what? :oldlol: I took the performances of other great scorers that faced the Bad Boys from '87-'91 and Spurs from '99-'03... If I missed someone I'll be happy to add them.

I've already debunked your Russell argument...

Wilt playoff average vs. everyone ('60-'69) - 26.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, 4.4 apg on 52.0 %FG
Wilt playoff average vs. Russell ('60-'69) - 25.7 ppg, 28.0 rpg, 4.2 apg on 49.2 %FG

Minor difference...

And your "true TS%" argument has also been destroyed. fpliii again posted the data and we see that in Wilt's scoring years the difference is less than 1% for every single year... And of course Wilt's contemporaries would benefit just as much from this adjustment? :oldlol:

Myself and other posters have also systematically shown the year-by-year decline in Wilt's production in the playoffs and finals and shown that he was at best #3 postseason scorer in his own era. Now you're trying to extend the same argument to MJ, Kareem, and Shaq and you've failed miserably. Those players were almost always light years better against their toughest competition than any other players who faced them.

You cherry picked KAJ vs Nate. Again, a prime Chamberlain CRUSHED Thurmond. He was outscoring and outshooting him by staggering numbers. FAR more than prime KAJ ever did to Thurmond. Had Wilt faced Thurmond in the 65-66 playoffs, it would have been more of the same as he did to him in the regular season...margins of 33-17, 33-10, 38-15, and 45-13.

You certainly "cherry-picked" Baylor and West's numbers against RUSSELL. What a complete FALLACY. RUSSELL was NOT their primary defenders. And again, Russell NEVER battled Wilt one-on-one, either. A prime Chamberlain was essentially achieving the same success, basically by himself, that a PRIME Baylor and West were doing...COMBINED. And when Wilt was given an equal roster, that was healthy, and played their normal games, he and his TEAM slaughtered Russell and his TEAM.

And a PRIME Wilt against Russell... 30.2 ppg on a .508 FG% and a .511 TS%, and in leagues that shot .420. NO ONE ELSE ever came CLOSE to that domination against Russell.

The TS%'s,...1-2% higher almost every year of his career (and even higher in his post-seasons)...and I contend even higher (we simply don't have the actual numbers.) And no, the rest of the league would not have benefitted NEARLY as much. It affected Wilt more than anyone else, simply because of Wilt's volume, and his poorer FT shooting.

And, as always, you have ignored the HUGE differentials in Wilt's prime, against the LEAGUE AVERAGE. You also NEVER bring up the fact that Chamberlain was not only CRUSHING his HOF peers on the glass, but DRAMATICALLY reducing their normal FG%'s. Even an OLD Wilt was ROUTINELY holding KAJ to 10%, or more, under his normal regular season averages.

A prime Wilt DESTROYED his PEERS, ALL of them, and INCLUDING the post-season...FAR more than Kareem ever did. A 64-65, 65-66, and 66-67 Chamberlain was LIGHT YEARS better than Reed, Bellamy, Russell, and yes Thurmond (a PEAK Thurmond I might add...and in his greatest season.)

As for Wilt's competition in the post-season... in his scoring prime, he faced RUSSELL in nearly 60% of his games (30 of 52.) A Wilt thru his PEAK, faced Russell and Thurmond in 41 of his 67 playoff games. And a prime Wilt, from 60-69, faced Russell in EIGHT of his 18 playoff series...or nearly HALF. Not only that, but he was running into Russell's dynasty in his first, or second, rounds, SEVEN times. I'm sorry, but Kareem, Shaq, and MJ didn't face their greatest adversaries in HALF of their prime's in the post-season. Not even close.

Here were a prime Wilt's scoring numbers in his non-Russell series thru '66.

38.7 ppg.
37.0 ppg.
37.0 ppg.
38.7 ppg.
27.8 ppg.

35.8 ppg on average.

Add in Russell and his 30 H2H's...

32.8 ppg.

A PRIME scoring Wilt, in a mere 52 games (again, 30 of which were against Russell)...FOUR games of 50+, including THREE in MUST-WIN games (go ahead and give me the list of other GOATs who accomplished that feat)...including one against RUSSELL. 10 of 40+, including FOUR against Russell.

And keep in mind that Wilt missed the playoffs entirely in his '62-63 season, in a year in which he averaged 44.8 ppg.


Go thru Wilt's absolute peak, in 66-67, covering 67 playoff games (35 of which came against Russell, and six more against Thurmond), and here were his COMBINED numbers...

30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and a .515 eFG% (in a span in which the NBA shot .420 in the post-season.)

I won't bother looking up his OPPOSING CENTERS numbers, but just off the top of my head...

Here were their FG%'s:

Kerr with playoff series against Wilt in which he shot .296 and .376 from the field.

Russell with .446, .399, .386, .447, and .358 FG% series.

Thurmond with a .343 series (and this was a PEAK Thurmond, in his greatest season...oh, and BTW, Chamberlain was at .560 in that same series...all while outscoring and outrebounding him.)

And, take away Nate and Russell and their TEN playoff series out of his EIGHTEEN in the decade of the 60's (and remove his 62-63 season from his overall playoff numbers)...

And in those 37 games, Chamberlain averaged 31.2 ppg, and on a .532 FG%. Remove 62-63 from his stats, and he averaged 33.3 ppg on a .530 eFG% in that same span in the regular season.

Had Wilt had the good fortune to have not faced the two greatest defensive centers in the history of the game (excluding himself, of course), and he would have been putting up staggering numbers.

And, think about this...had Wilt's teams been able to score three more points in game seven of the '62 EDF's...and he would have faced the Lakers in the Finals. As it was Russell went on to averaged 23 ppg on a .543 FG% against that Laker team, including a game seven of 30-40. Now, in their nine regular season H2H's in that 61-62 season, Chamberlain AVERAGED 51.5 ppg (on a .500 eFG%), which included THREE games of 60+ and a staggering 78-43 game. Now, given the fact that Russell EXPLODED against that Laker team, and just what in the hell would have Wilt carpet-bombed them with.

Same scenario in '60, or '65, or '66. Think about this. Wilt, with horrible rosters, was stuck in the Eastern Conference for four of his six "scoring seasons." Of course, his roster was so inept in '63, he didn't even make the playoffs, either. BUT, had he been in the West in those six seasons, and routinely running into the Lakers in that conference playoffs, and he likely would hold every playoff scoring record. I already gave you his 61-62 scoring numbers against LA. How about 59-60? 36.8 ppg in nine H2H's. How about 64-65? 30.0 ppg in eight H2H's. And how about his 65-66 H2H's with the Lakers? Keep in mind that Russell averaged 23.6 ppg against LA in the Finals that year (and only 14 ppg against Wilt in the previous playoff series)...but what about Wilt in his ten regular season H2H's with LA that year... 40.8 ppg! This was a perhaps Wilt at his absolute peak, too.

So, had Chamberlain faced the cannon-fodder of the Laker centers in the 60's, and he would probably have been putting up 40+ ppg playoff series. Russell was certainly blowing away his regular season numbers against them.


The most dominant scoring center in playoff history...

A PRIME/PEAK Chamberlain...and by a huge margin. The numbers do not lie.

[CavaliersFTW]

Let's play point out specific clips (time code please) Wilt allegedly looked 'awkward' catching entry passes... that joke of a criticism should be easy to expose. Wilt catches peoples shots out of mid-air... yet he's allegedly 'awkward' catching an entry pass :oldlol:

[Big#50]

Maybe I've seen way more? watch the video in the OP, start to finish... his scoring game is not going to be improved upon, thus 50ppg, 100 points, etc, you don't think he mastered the game of scoring in basketball? Seriously? Watch the footage I posted or don't comment in this thread :facepalm
Huh? I DID WATCH.
He would not replicate his stats in this era. He would have to improve in every area.

[CavaliersFTW]

Huh? I DID WATCH.
He would not replicate his stats in this era. He would have to improve in every area.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-NRWNX7Z7Y

Your boy David Robinson doesn't even have 1/3rd of the post moves showcased by Wilt, I watch his footage, and every time he posts up with the ball in hand he struggles to get deep in the paint, sometimes even getting pushed out, he averaged almost 30 points per game off of back door, rebounds, and transition points with the occasional face up... Wilt by comparison was DOMINATING in the post in footage. You my friend, are simply delusional if you watched that footage and felt Wilt would need to 'improve' in skillset. David Robinson himself doesn't even have that skillset, and this on top of lacking Wilt's size and strength.

[LAZERUSS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-NRWNX7Z7Y

Your boy David Robinson doesn't even have 1/3rd of the post moves showcased by Wilt, I watch his footage, and every time he posts up with the ball in hand he struggles to get deep in the paint, sometimes even getting pushed out, he averaged almost 30 points per game off of back door, rebounds, and transition points with the occasional face up... Wilt by comparison was DOMINATING in the post in footage. You my friend, are simply delusional if you watched that footage and felt Wilt would need to 'improve' in skillset. David Robinson himself doesn't even have that skillset, and this on top of lacking Wilt's size and strength.

Robinson, as great as he was...looked like one of "Jerry's Kids" when compared to what Chamberlain could do at BOTH ends of the floor.

[Big#50]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-NRWNX7Z7Y

Your boy David Robinson doesn't even have 1/3rd of the post moves showcased by Wilt, I watch his footage, and every time he posts up with the ball in hand he struggles to get deep in the paint, sometimes even getting pushed out, he averaged almost 30 points per game off of back door, rebounds, and transition points with the occasional face up... Wilt by comparison was DOMINATING in the post in footage. You my friend, are simply delusional if you watched that footage and felt Wilt would need to 'improve' in skillset. David Robinson himself doesn't even have that skillset, and this on top of lacking Wilt's size and strength.
DROB had no post game. He was not a banger either. But he did have a great shot. Could dribble. Had a great first step. Wilt had none of that. I know you're biased but don't be blind. Wilt could have been great in this era with better skills. You think he could do it with what he had back then. I disagree.

[CavaliersFTW]

DROB had no post game. He was not a banger either. But he did have a great shot. Could dribble. Had a great first step. Wilt had none of that. I know you're biased but don't be blind. Wilt could have been great in this era with better skills. You think he could do it with what he had back then. I disagree.
What he did back then is more sophisticated than what is being taught to bruising big men today, if you disagree kindly point out specifics. Moves that rely on quickness btw, are not skillsets that benefit 300lb players, so be sure to show me power moves that guys like Bynum, Lopez and Hibbert use that are allegedly superior to the moves Wilt was using. Just give a few examples of ones that net modern players a deeper position, more reliably, I'll wait.

[LAZERUSS]

Cherry-picked what? :oldlol: I took the performances of other great scorers that faced the Bad Boys from '87-'91 and Spurs from '99-'03... If I missed someone I'll be happy to add them.

I've already debunked your Russell argument...

Wilt playoff average vs. everyone ('60-'69) - 26.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, 4.4 apg on 52.0 %FG
Wilt playoff average vs. Russell ('60-'69) - 25.7 ppg, 28.0 rpg, 4.2 apg on 49.2 %FG

Minor difference...

And your "true TS%" argument has also been destroyed. fpliii again posted the data and we see that in Wilt's scoring years the difference is less than 1% for every single year... And of course Wilt's contemporaries would benefit just as much from this adjustment? :oldlol:

Myself and other posters have also systematically shown the year-by-year decline in Wilt's production in the playoffs and finals and shown that he was at best #3 postseason scorer in his own era. Now you're trying to extend the same argument to MJ, Kareem, and Shaq and you've failed miserably. Those players were almost always light years better against their toughest competition than any other players who faced them.

Just a small, but important correction...

In the 49 Wilt-Russell H2H post-season games, I have Wilt with a total eFG% of .508 (488-961), and a true TS% of .504.

In fact, Wilt only had two series, out of their eight H2H's, in which he shot less than 50%... '62 at .468, and an injured Wilt shot .487 in '68 (and subtract the last two games from that series when he could barely walk, and he was shooting .539 in the first five.)

Pretty amazing...

Against a player that many consider the greatest defensive player ever, and who BTW, needed a TON of help from his teammates...

in 49 post-season H2H games, and in an era when post-season eFG%'s were around .430... a .508 FG%.

And, once again, a PRIME "scoring" Wilt averaged 30.2 ppg on a .507 FG% against a prime Russell, and in post-seasons that shot .420 on average. A Wilt with one 50 point game (and a must win game at that), and three more 40+ games (including yet another must-win game) in his 30 H2H games against Russell and the greatest dynasty in the history of the NBA.

Oh, and how did Russell shoot against Wilt in those 49 H2H playoff games... .412. And Wilt held a PRIME Russell to a .415 eFG% in their five playoff series, covering 30 H2H's, from '60 thru '66.

So, Chamberlain shot about 7-8% over the league average in their 49 H2H playoff games, while holding Russell to below it. And a prime Wilt shot almost 9% above the league average against Russell.


And as a sidenote, Chamberlain battled Thurmond in 17 playoff games, and outshot Nate from the field by a combined .542 to .366 margin. Of course, a more prime Wilt outshot a PEAK Thurmond by a .560 to .343 margin in the '67 Finals.

Just total domination of two of the three greatest defensive centers in NBA history (with Wilt being the other.)

[dankok8]

Just a small, but important correction...

In the 49 Wilt-Russell H2H post-season games, I have Wilt with a total eFG% of .508 (488-961), and a true TS% of .504.

In fact, Wilt only had two series, out of their eight H2H's, in which he shot less than 50%... '62 at .468, and an injured Wilt shot .487 in '68 (and subtract the last two games from that series when he could barely walk, and he was shooting .539 in the first five.)

Pretty amazing...

Against a player that many consider the greatest defensive player ever, and who BTW, needed a TON of help from his teammates...

in 49 post-season H2H games, and in an era when post-season eFG%'s were around .430... a .508 FG%.

And, once again, a PRIME "scoring" Wilt averaged 30.2 ppg on a .507 FG% against a prime Russell, and in post-seasons that shot .420 on average. A Wilt with one 50 point game (and a must win game at that), and three more 40+ games (including yet another must-win game) in his 30 H2H games against Russell and the greatest dynasty in the history of the NBA.

Oh, and how did Russell shoot against Wilt in those 49 H2H playoff games... .412. And Wilt held a PRIME Russell to a .415 eFG% in their five playoff series, covering 30 H2H's, from '60 thru '66.

So, Chamberlain shot about 7-8% over the league average in their 49 H2H playoff games, while holding Russell to below it. And a prime Wilt shot almost 9% above the league average against Russell.


And as a sidenote, Chamberlain battled Thurmond in 17 playoff games, and outshot Nate from the field by a combined .542 to .366 margin. Of course, a more prime Wilt outshot a PEAK Thurmond by a .560 to .343 margin in the '67 Finals.

Just total domination of two of the three greatest defensive centers in NBA history (with Wilt being the other.)

I'm positive that your total FGA is incorrect. It's 488/1001 or 49.2% for field goals. Free throws are 312/640 or 48.8 % and true shooting is 49.1%.

[LAZERUSS]

For those that might be interested, I am currently working on a PRIME "scoring" Wilt (from '60 thur '66). It will involve Wilt vs. Russell, Bellamy, Reed, and Thurmond, including their regular season and post-season H2H's in that span. I am also going to include Wilt's stats in each of those seasons against the Lakers. Why? Because had Wilt had the good fortune to have met them in the playoffs in the Western Conference in those six seasons (instead, he was only in the Western Conference in two of them, and his roster was so awfull that they didn't make the playoffs in one of them), he likely would hold virtually every playoff scoring record imaginable.

Included will be some interesting tidbits...such as...

In Wilt's rookie season, he and Russell squared off 11 times in the regular season. I used a newspaper article from NYCelts84 which included their H2H FG%'s in their first ten H2H's, and then added in the known 11th game H2H's. There were several interesting facts about those regular season H2H's, but one that really jumped out...Wilt shot .464 against Russell, in a season in which he shot .461 overall against the NBA,while holding Russell, who had shot a career high .467 against the NBA, to a .393 FG% in their 11 H2H games. Also, subtract their very first H2H game...a poor game for Wilt...and his stats over the last ten H2H's... 40.2 ppg, 29.7 rpg, and a .467 FG% (in a league that shot an eFG% of .410.)

And Russell did an outstanding job in holding Wilt's FG% down in their first six H2H games of the 60-61 season, as well. Overall, Russell "held" Chamberlain to 35.5 ppg, 30.6 rpg, and on a .492 FG% in their 13 H2H games that season. BUT, in their last seven straight H2H's that year...Wilt averaged 38.4 ppg, 26.4 rpg, and on a staggering .580 FG%. Oh, and for the second straight season, Chamberlain held Russell to well below the league eFG% (which was .415) ... to a .387 FG% in those 13 games.

Much more to come...

[Rocketswin2013]

CavsFtw just said Wilt was 300 pounds..........

:facepalm

He probably maxed out in his Laker days at 280......

[LAZERUSS]

CavsFtw just said Wilt was 300 pounds..........

:facepalm

He probably maxed out in his Laker days at 280......

Actually he was around 300 in '71, and around 310 by his last season in '73 .

He weighed as much as 315 in the mid-60's BTW...

[fpliii]

CavsFtw just said Wilt was 300 pounds..........

:facepalm

He probably maxed out in his Laker days at 280......
He was ~300 from 64 (though he got a little higher and lower depending on the season). There are countless sources for this (I uploaded a bunch of newspapers a year ago with specific weights that CavsFTW or someone else might have).

[CavaliersFTW]

CavsFtw just said Wilt was 300 pounds..........

:facepalm

He probably maxed out in his Laker days at 280......
http://youtu.be/pOBX9ikNzEk?t=1m1s

Listen closely ^

That is the sound of you being exposed as an idiot.

"What was your playing weight about 275-280?"

"No no no my playing weight was around 300-310"

Couldn't be more specific.

Not enough? Read closely:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=eTBPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=igIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3740,1128925&dq=wilt+chamberlain+300+pound+weight&hl=en

"He is now playing professional volleyball and is now 30 pounds below his NBA playing weight of 300 pounds"

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7GADBWGhniA/U09f-SJYQwI/AAAAAAAAFDs/fJkNzbenTY8/s800/Wilt%2520300lbs%2520Mar%25206%25201969.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/9hHKU.png

http://i.imgur.com/YRmNb.png

http://i.imgur.com/7Nkzu.png

all from his playing years, the 320lbs figure from 1964 season, only his 5th season in the league

[Rocketswin2013]

This is Shaq in 2000 at 325 pounds.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/085/805/654254_display_image.jpg

This was Wilt in 1964 at "315 pounds"
http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/wilt-chamberlain-100-point-game-thumb-400xauto-31440.jpg


Wilt was nowhere near Shaq's three dimensional size with his height, width and depth. So the difference was only by 10 pounds? :facepalm

Wilt was a solid 20-40 pounds away from Shaq's weight.

[LAZERUSS]

I'm positive that your total FGA is incorrect. It's 488/1001 or 49.2% for field goals. Free throws are 312/640 or 48.8 % and true shooting is 49.1%.

Nope...

'60: 74-148
'62: 88-188
'64: 62-120
'65: 81-146
'66: 56-110
'67: 40-72
'68: 58-119 (And again, Wilt was just a shell in the last two games of that series. In the first five he was shooting .539.)
69: 29-58

488-961 or .508 FG%.

And a prime Chamberlain averaged 30.2 ppg on a .507 eFG% (361-712.)

FTs are:

'60: 35-71
'62: 59-92
'64: 22-53
'65: 49-85
'66: 28-68
'67: 28-55
'68: 39-91
'69: 24-66

or 284-581 which is .489.

Overall... a .508 TS% and a .504 true TS%. Of course, we BOTH know that this is incorrect for two reasons. One, I used the 2-1 system...a FGA is worth two points, and a FTA is worth one, instead of the ridiculous .44 FTA system. And two, and much more importantly, with the actual FTAs at the time, Chamberlain's EFFECTIVE TS% was at LEAST 1-2 % higher (I contend considerably higher.) In all likelihood, Chamberlain's EFFECTIVE TS% against Russell was probably between .515 and .520 (and could have been as much as .530.)

[CavaliersFTW]

This is Shaq in 2000 at 325 pounds.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/085/805/654254_display_image.jpg?1310354863

This was Wilt in 1964 at "315 pounds"
http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/wilt-chamberlain-100-point-game-thumb-400xauto-31440.jpg


Wilt was nowhere near Shaq's three dimensional size with his height, width and depth. So the difference was only by 10 pounds? :facepalm

Wilt was a solid 20-40 pounds away from Shaq's weight.
Know anything about photography? If not, than you shouldn't be comparing photographs, because focal length of lenses makes a MASSIVE difference in how filled out subjects appear. And zoom lenses capable of capturing quick movements (thus, apt for sports photography) were barely coming into existence in the 60's. You really want to see Shaq next to Wilt? Watch them literally standing next to each other in video.

300lb young Shaq could literally DISAPPEAR if he stood behind Wilt. Wilt was f*cking huge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRX-0FsCYO4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU43dTuMuig

[Rocketswin2013]

Know anything about photography? If not, than you shouldn't be comparing photographs, because focal length of lenses makes a MASSIVE difference in how filled out subjects appear. And zoom lenses capable of capturing quick movements (thus, apt for sports photography) were barely coming into existence in the 60's. You really want to see Shaq next to Wilt? Watch them literally standing next to each other in video.

300lb young Shaq could literally DISAPPEAR if he stood behind Wilt. Wilt was f*cking huge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRX-0FsCYO4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU43dTuMuig
Baby Shaq.

Shaq was nowhere near 300 back then. Like I said, Wilt was probably 280 in but I'd give him 290 because of that wingspan from the first clip :eek:

I really don't see how you could think he was that big.

[LAZERUSS]

Baby Shaq.

Shaq was nowhere near 300 back then. Like I said, Wilt was probably 280 in but I'd give him 290 because of that wingspan from the first clip :eek:

I really don't see how you could think he was that big.


So you are going to dispute NUMEROUS articles that had Wilt at over 300 lbs for at least half of his career?

Furthermore, Chamberlain was MUCH stronger than Shaq. This is also indisputable. Again, NUMEROUS articles and eye-witness accounts which have Chamberlain doing staggering bench press weights.. Hell, Arnold Schwartzenegger, himself, was STUNNED by the massive weights that Chamberlain worked out with.

[Rocketswin2013]

Alright, I don't really care about his weight anymore because I just ran into something.....



He consistently hit fadeaway jumpers from the left block. :applause:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBX9ikNzEk

Dirk-like.

[CavaliersFTW]

Baby Shaq.

Shaq was nowhere near 300 back then. Like I said, Wilt was probably 280 in but I'd give him 290 because of that wingspan from the first clip :eek:

I really don't see how you could think he was that big.
Shaq weighed 301lbs during week 1 of the draft process before he ever stepped foot on an NBA court, and 303lbs during week 2... this is actual recorded data, do you seriously think your amateur analysis of photography trumps recorded data? Wilt's weights have been recorded... so have Shaqs... these are facts that need not be speculated through attempting to analyze sports photography spanning several decades. Of which you are not even remotely qualified to do. Wanna know what changing the focal length on a photographers lens can do? Here:

http://petapixel.com/assets/uploads/2012/08/portraits_mini.jpg

Which model weighs the least?...

Which focal length do you think represents 1960's era sports photography and which focal length do you think represents modern era sports photography?

Here's a very rare opportunity for comparison of IDENTICAL focal length pictures of Shaq and Wilt taken from the same camera, in the same arena, at the same spot 30 years apart:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Vii-jxHxfqg/UwWC7yKtSOI/AAAAAAAAE-s/Gm0ISKegD0A/s640/Chicago%2520Stadium%25201993.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-w0hPgPoNmmU/UwWC74wo7VI/AAAAAAAAE-o/cigoDzEjxpA/s640/Chicago%2520Stadium%25201973.jpg
50/50
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-P65woXAoE9g/UwWDnmvKlaI/AAAAAAAAE-0/NrRSrFu-uk0/s640/Chicago%2520Stadium%2520superimposed.jpg

Which player looks bigger? The effect, surprise surprise, is still akin to watching old man Wilt and young Shaq stand next to each other. Shaq would literally be able to disappear behind him. Wilt was a huge dude, like, one of the biggest players that ever played the game. I'm not just talking weight either, I'm talking his stature, the height and breadth of his shoulders, etc. Shaq eventually got fat and outweighed Wilt by like 50 pounds, but it's because he got fat. Wilt was naturally a bigger, taller, wider shouldered player.

[LAZERUSS]

For those that might be interested, I am currently working on a PRIME "scoring" Wilt (from '60 thur '66). It will involve Wilt vs. Russell, Bellamy, Reed, and Thurmond, including their regular season and post-season H2H's in that span. I am also going to include Wilt's stats in each of those seasons against the Lakers. Why? Because had Wilt had the good fortune to have met them in the playoffs in the Western Conference in those six seasons (instead, he was only in the Western Conference in two of them, and his roster was so awfull that they didn't make the playoffs in one of them), he likely would hold virtually every playoff scoring record imaginable.

Included will be some interesting tidbits...such as...

In Wilt's rookie season, he and Russell squared off 11 times in the regular season. I used a newspaper article from NYCelts84 which included their H2H FG%'s in their first ten H2H's, and then added in the known 11th game H2H's. There were several interesting facts about those regular season H2H's, but one that really jumped out...Wilt shot .464 against Russell, in a season in which he shot .461 overall against the NBA,while holding Russell, who had shot a career high .467 against the NBA, to a .393 FG% in their 11 H2H games. Also, subtract their very first H2H game...a poor game for Wilt...and his stats over the last ten H2H's... 40.2 ppg, 29.7 rpg, and a .467 FG% (in a league that shot an eFG% of .410.)

And Russell did an outstanding job in holding Wilt's FG% down in their first six H2H games of the 60-61 season, as well. Overall, Russell "held" Chamberlain to 35.5 ppg, 30.6 rpg, and on a .492 FG% in their 13 H2H games that season. BUT, in their last seven straight H2H's that year...Wilt averaged 38.4 ppg, 26.4 rpg, and on a staggering .580 FG%. Oh, and for the second straight season, Chamberlain held Russell to well below the league eFG% (which was .415) ... to a .387 FG% in those 13 games.

Much more to come...

Here are the numbers from the seven straight games that Wilt hung on Russell in their last seven H2H's in that '61 season...

Game 7: 44 points, 35 rebounds, 17-27 FG/FGA, oh, and 15 blocked shots.
Game 8: 25 points, 24 rebounds, 10-18 FG/FGA
Game 9: 46 points, 20 rebounds, 19-29 FG/FGA
Game 10: 46 points, 25 rebounds, 20-34 FG/FGA
Game 11: 34 points, 28 rebounds, 15-23 FG/FGA
Game 12: 27 points, 27 rebounds, 11-23 FG/FGA
Game 13: 47 points, 26 rebounds, 20-39 FG/FGA

Overall in those seven straight H2H's: 38.4 ppg, 26.4 rpg, and an unfathomable .580 eFG%. Oh, and keep in mind that the NBA shot an eFG% of .415 in that '61 season...

I am still working on this long project, but I suspect that those seven straight games were Wilt's best ever in a seven game stretch against Russell (albeit, Russell did have two games of 28 and 37 points against Wilt in that span.)

[CavaliersFTW]

Alright, I don't really care about his weight anymore because I just ran into something.....



He consistently hit fadeaway jumpers from the left block. :applause:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBX9ikNzEk

Dirk-like.
and the right block, and even from deep in the post or off of offensive rebounds

[Rocketswin2013]

Forget it, forget it.

[LAZERUSS]

Alright, I don't really care about his weight anymore because I just ran into something.....



He consistently hit fadeaway jumpers from the left block. :applause:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBX9ikNzEk

Dirk-like.

Glad to see another convert...

BTW, you can thank CavaliersFTW for that footage...

[Rocketswin2013]

Glad to see another convert...

BTW, you can thank CavaliersFTW for that footage...
Excuse the comment above. I just don't like leaving comments unattended to unless they are very stupid. :D

[CavaliersFTW]

What year did he get fat?


In 2000 Shaq was solid as ****. And in very good physical condidtion playing 40+ minutes per game.

Look these legends are all cool, but you have to be delusional as **** to think Wilt much stronger. He was at best just as strong. Shaq's girth is unmatched. So the breadth of his shoulders really doesn't matter. Just looking at Chamberlain, what really made him huge was his long arms and the lean weight on them. But Shaq was just much, much larger everywhere else.

And on the rookie weight, give me some "data" and your proof because you obviously like to cite things but had nothing when you said Shaq was 303 pounds.

Also, my eye test is just as legit as yours, just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean you're as inept at judging weight purely off of the eyes too. Unless you want to cite some sort of photography background proof, then I'll stfu.
Citation for Shaq:
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Shaquille-O-neal-3796/
If you'd like I can even find the data that seperated his different weeks at the camp (301lbs vs 303lbs for 2nd measurement)


I'm only an amateur photographer, but who cares, I don't need credentials to prove to you that focal length effects how filled out subjects are, you can google it and literally find chart after chart demonstrating this, and with a couple minutes of explanation even a child could learn to point out whether or not a picture was taken with a zoom lens or not. Modern sports photography lenses are almost ALL (by design for marketing athletes) zoom lenses, 1960's technology lenses were not, large focal length lenses of that time were not capable of absorbing enough light to capture movement and so all sports photography lenses of that time were mostly black and white, and had hardly any zoom at all, and only a small fraction of early 1970's technology lenses were but even those were at best only half the zoom capability of what has been used from the 1990's to present which is a deliberate effort to help market all modern athletes look huge and volumous. What effect does this have? It makes comparisons spanning time frames and photography formats via "eyeball test" among the masses of totally clueless people incredibly misleading.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ufaFqWLdX4w/U09ssMx6hvI/AAAAAAAAFD8/9EU-9bMKajw/s640/Kaci-with-Dwight-Howard-717686.jpg
How much does Dwight weigh in this pic?

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0312/nba_g_howard_d1_576.jpg
How much does Dwight weigh in this pic?


*ANSWER* He weighs 15lbs MORE in the first pic.

Why does he look so yoked in the 2nd pic, yet so ordinary in the first?

Focal length.

Why do athletes look so ordinary and unimpressive in photographs 40+ years ago despite many known weight/size/strength figures to overlap modern weight/size/strength athletes?

Focal length.

[Psileas]

Know anything about photography? If not, than you shouldn't be comparing photographs, because focal length of lenses makes a MASSIVE difference in how filled out subjects appear. And zoom lenses capable of capturing quick movements (thus, apt for sports photography) were barely coming into existence in the 60's. You really want to see Shaq next to Wilt? Watch them literally standing next to each other in video.

300lb young Shaq could literally DISAPPEAR if he stood behind Wilt. Wilt was f*cking huge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRX-0FsCYO4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU43dTuMuig

You forgot to make the most obvious correction: This wasn't 1964 Wilt, this was 1962 Wilt, several pounds lighter than 2 years later.
Citing this photo by someone who wants to seriously argue on Wilt as "1964 Wilt" is borderline trolling.

[sundizz]

I actually think Wilt was bigger than Shaq. However, he was nowhere near as powerful. Stronger does not mean more powerful or explosive.

Wilt can out bench press Shaq. Sure, and there are probably other people that can do that too.

However, no man ever in the history of recorded video comes even close to the pure explosive power of a young Shaquille O'neal.

Wilt could likely run a 100 meter sprint faster than Shaq.
Wilt could likely bench 1.5x more than Shaq.

However, as it matters for basketball, Shaq's speed from 0 to 5 feet is significantly significantly faster than anyone else at his size. Combine that quickness with his weight and that is what makes him the beast that he is.

It's his ability to move his heavy mass in an explosive manner. Not his overall strength, not his overall running speed.

Wilt would do just fine in this era. He would not be better than a prime Shaq though.

[CavaliersFTW]

Much better rebounder and defensive player no matter what version he is and either a better scorer or passer, pick one, either way he's overall better

[Rocketswin2013]

Wilt was probably close to as heavy as Shaq because of how long and lean his body was, but Shaq was probably stronger because he wasn't as long and the actual muscle and weight was more compact.


Best way I can put it. But to say Wilt was "way" or "much stronger" than Shaq is kind of off.

As players, Wilt was probably better, but it's hard for me to say by how much.

[CavaliersFTW]

1962 game log:

http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/wiltchamberlain.png

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt was probably close to as heavy as Shaq because of how long and lean his body was, but Shaq was probably stronger because he wasn't as long and the actual muscle and weight was more compact.


Best way I can put it. But to say Wilt was "way" or "much stronger" than Shaq is kind of off.

As players, Wilt was probably better, but it's hard for me to say by how much.
being more compact does not make you stronger, Wilt's upper body was bigger than Shaq's, look at the footage of Shaq and Wilt together, in both instances it looks like Shaq could literally disappear if he stood behind Wilt... Shaq obviously bulked up in both strength and fat by about 5 years later but his stature as in - the breadth and height of his upper body, was never in the same league as Wilt's. Shaq's immense weight advantage during his prime was in gut, he did not train in the off season and keep fat off where as Wilt did. Wilt both looked, and was according to eyewitness accounts, the stronger athlete up top.

[CavaliersFTW]

NBA record for most points scored by a rookie in a playoff game? Held by none other than Wilt Chamberlain :bowdown: Most amount of rebounds in a playoff game? Wilt again :bowdown: Most assists per game by a center during the playoffs? Wilt :bowdown: list goes on and on even in the playoffs Wilt's dominance was unmatched, in fact if any of you were wondering, the majority of all the footage in the video in the OP is playoff footage from HS to NCAA to NBA-level, the composition has a strong bias to archived playoff game stock and/or games

[mr4speed]

1962 game log:

http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/wiltchamberlain.png
Thank you for sharing Wilt's season. He was an absolute beast. I just don't get the Wilt bashing on this site? Or the ridiculous ring count of 2 rings as if that somehow dismisses what Wilt did on the court.

[KingBeasley08]

A big time state whore that got b*tch slapped by Russell every time they played :oldlol:

[canary]

A big time state whore that got b*tch slapped by Russell every time they played :oldlol:

He played really really well against Russell's Celtics; especially if you consider the teams he played for in his early days. His supporting cast was suspect...this against the Celtics who had 7HoF'ers.

Allow me to clear that up for you: they had so many Hall of Famers on their team they had to bench two. :lol

For Wilt to bring the Celtics to 6/7 games in the Finals is impressive.

[LAZERUSS]

He played really really well against Russell's Celtics; especially if you consider the teams he played for in his early days. His supporting cast was suspect...this against the Celtics who had 7HoF'ers.

Allow me to clear that up for you: they had so many Hall of Famers on their team they had to bench two. :lol

For Wilt to bring the Celtics to 6/7 games in the Finals is impressive.

Don't forget that Wilt was THE reason that the Celtic dynasty run ended at eight straight.

Nor the FACT that Wilt either outplayed, or downright destroyed Russell in all eight of their post-season series.

[dankok8]

NBA record for most points scored by a rookie in a playoff game? Held by none other than Wilt Chamberlain :bowdown: Most amount of rebounds in a playoff game? Wilt again :bowdown: Most assists per game by a center during the playoffs? Wilt :bowdown: list goes on and on even in the playoffs Wilt's dominance was unmatched, in fact if any of you were wondering, the majority of all the footage in the video in the OP is playoff footage from HS to NCAA to NBA-level, the composition has a strong bias to archived playoff game stock and/or games

You can't be serious...:rolleyes:

Rookie scoring record is nice but it's a rookie record. Doesn't mean much. His rebounding record also means less when probably the top25 highest rebounding efforts are from the same era of high pace and poor shooting. His TRB% weren't significantly higher than the other GOAT rebounders in other eras. The assist record is legit impressive but Wilt played a unique role and wanted to rack up the stats. Couldn't Walton or Duncan or Russell have averaged 9+ apg if they really tried?

Honestly I'm not hating on Wilt but you're posting these stats like they actually matter a lot. Wilt was not a dominant playoff performer like several other greats. There may be reasons for his "struggles" and whether they are valid or not is open to interpretation but he just wasn't as dominant in the postseason...

[CavaliersFTW]

You can't be serious...:rolleyes:

**attempts to write it off**
:facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

:facepalm

Is this seriously your response? :no:

[LAZERUSS]

You can't be serious...:rolleyes:

Rookie scoring record is nice but it's a rookie record. Doesn't mean much. His rebounding record also means less when probably the top25 highest rebounding efforts are from the same era of high pace and poor shooting. His TRB% weren't significantly higher than the other GOAT rebounders in other eras. The assist record is legit impressive but Wilt played a unique role and wanted to rack up the stats. Couldn't Walton or Duncan or Russell have averaged 9+ apg if they really tried?

Honestly I'm not hating on Wilt but you're posting these stats like they actually matter a lot. Wilt was not a dominant playoff performer like several other greats. There may be reasons for his "struggles" and whether they are valid or not is open to interpretation but he just wasn't as dominant in the postseason...

Chamberlain was never outrebounded by an opposing center in ANY of his 29 post-season series. And, in the ONE series in which he did not lead both teams, it was by PF Jerry Lucas. Interesting, since a 35 year old Wilt would match up against a 31 year old CENTER Jerry Lucas in the '72 Finals...and guess what? Wilt in 47 mpg in that series, outrebounded Lucas, who played 46 mpg, by a 23.2 to 9.8 rpg margin.

NO ONE outrebounded Wilt. Not a PEAK Kareem, not a PEAK Russell, not a PEAK Thurmond...NO ONE. And in most cases, he SLAUGHTERED his opposing centers on the glass (all while DRAMATICALLY reducing their FG%'s.)

As for "Walton, Duncan, or Russell averaging 9 apg"...NO WAY they would have been doing it while scoring 24 ppg. Absolutely ZERO chance. Only Wilt was able to dominate the game of basketball from scoring, rebounding, defense, and passing...at the SAME TIME.

And once again, a "scoring Wilt" averaged 33 ppg, in 52 playoff games, (30 of which came against the greatest defensive dynasty in NBA history) on close to 10% higher than the post-season league FG%, with 11 games of 40+ points (5 against Russell BTW), which included FOUR of 50+ (three of which were in "must win" games...and one of those...against RUSSELL.)

And we could carry this to on as well. We know that due to circumstances mostly due to his conference and the fact that he faced the greatest dynasty in NBA history..that he didn't run into the West-Baylor Lakers from '62 thru '66 in the playoffs. Because if he had, he would almost CERTAINLY hold virtually every post-season scoring record out there. As it was, in the ONE season in which his team was in the Western Conference, and made the playoffs, he put up a 39 ppg, .559 seven game series against the stacked Hawks (in a post-season NBA that averaged 105.8 ppg on a .420 eFG% BTW.) BUT, had he had the good fortune to have run up against those Lakers, like Russell did in FOUR of his post-seasons (ALL of them were his best post-season series' BTW), here is what he did against LA in those five regular seasons, and covering between 9 to 12 H2H games in each:

61-62: 51.6 ppg
62-63: 48.6 ppg
63-64: 44.3 ppg
64-65: 29.9 ppg
65-66: 40.8 ppg

Included were SIX games of 60+, and TWO of those were games of 72 and 78 points. CLEARLY, Chamberlain would have put up unreachable scoring numbers at some point in those five years.

As a side-note, I have seen you post both Baylor's and West's stats against Russell's Celtics (and of course, Russell was not the primary defender on them, either...nor were those guys doubled and tripled like Wilt was), but how come you never bring up what Wilt did against those same Baylor-West teams? He was, BY FAR, the most dominant player on the floor in them.

As for post-season "records", Chamberlain holds perhaps DOZENS. Most 30+ ppg-25+ rpg playoff seasons. Most 30+ ppg, 20+ rpg playoff seasons. Most 37+ ppg, 20+ rpg post-season series. Most 30+ ppg - 30+ rpg post-season series. Most 50-30 playoff games. Most 40-30 playoff games. Most 50+ point games in "must win games." Most 40+ point games in "must win" games. Most 20-20 playoff seasons. Most 20-20 playoff series. Most 20+ rpg post-seasons.

I could go on, but the simple fact remains, Chamberlain, in his first 67 games, (35 of which came against Russell, and another 6 against Thurmond...or over 60% of his playoff games in that span) AVERAGED a 30-27-5 .515 FG% (and about 9% over the post-season league eFG% average in that span)...PER GAME...COMBINED.

Sorry, but I don't see ANY "struggles" at all.

BTW, and as you KNOW, had a PRIME MJ faced the "Bad Boys", at their peak, in EIGHT post-season series; or had Shaq faced the vaunted Spurs from '99-04, EIGHT TIMES; or had Kareem faced Nate and Wilt, EIGHT TIMES...in their post-season careers, and in either the first, or second round in each of them (which is exactly what KAJ did...and his numbers nose-dived dramatically in the FIVE in which he did)...and in 60% of their post-season series...

and ALL of them would have far WORSE team records, and individual post-season stats.

A PRIME Chamberlain, against the greatest defensive center, and the greatest defensive team, of all-time, STILL put up 30 ppg on a .508 eFG% in post-seasons that shot around an eFG% of .420. Just unfathomable numbers.

He certainly is, at the very least, Top-TWO all-time in the post-season...and if you combined post-season and the normal 80 games of the regular season...and he was light years ahead of everyone else.

[fpliii]

OT - From the book, Season of the Sixers:
[quote]In fact, Dr. Jack Ramsay

[Hakeem>Duncan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBX9ikNzEk

That scoring prowess is superhuman.

but he can't preform in playoff thought :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

but he can't preform in playoff thought :roll:

Thanks for ZERO research.

Next...

[CavaliersFTW]

but he can't preform in playoff thought :roll:
The majority of that footage is playoff footage :cheers:

[fpliii]

OT - From the book, Season of the Sixers:

Does anybody have more info on this? Who would play each role in the triangle?There's not much tape on that season out there (I think it's just the second half of that Boston game, that short Finals video, and random footage), so I'll try and rewatch and pay attention to Philly's sets, but any info would be great.
Just did some quick watching, these seem to be the possessions with set offenses:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJjBDUhbBcs

4:10
5:45
7:28
8:51
9:24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiVAFBZzTac

2:14
2:42
3:14
3:35
5:04
5:42

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K9RJXAdZYw

2:08
4:58
6:59
8:50
9:09

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHXG3koetzA

2:02
8:02
9:05

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1myFngKMeb4

0:58
3:11
3:44
4:52
7:14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMYCEg9GK5Q

0:25
0:49
1:22
1:40
2:05

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zda_xvx1eU

0:01
0:16
0:32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjVjBP78BZw

0:10
0:36
0:58
1:16

---

It seems they definitely had something in place, so there must be some truth to the quote above about them using the triangle. I'll have to look into the Bucks, since Ramsey mentioned them as well.

[CavaliersFTW]

Is this seriously your response? :no:
Yes, writing off Wilt's records is like writing off Bill Russell's rings... or any combination of MJ or Kareem's titles and accolades. Wilt is a GOAT player primarily because of his dominance which translated into NBA records, he has 2 titles of course (also on record breaking teams btw) but the crux of Wilt's case at the top is based on his insane dominance and records... you don't just write them off with petty excuses unless you are straight hating. Dankok knows this, typing up an extended response to him would have been futile, he dismisses the very core of what makes Chamberlain so awesome, thus a facepalm is the only reasonable response.

[La Frescobaldi]

OT - From the book, Season of the Sixers:

Does anybody have more info on this? Who would play each role in the triangle?There's not much tape on that season out there (I think it's just the second half of that Boston game, that short Finals video, and random footage), so I'll try and rewatch and pay attention to Philly's sets, but any info would be great.

They called it the Triple Post in those days.

On the Sixers, Coach Hannum ran the two man game with Chamberlain & Chet Walker, Chamberlain & Hal Greer, or Greer & Luke Jackson. Then the 'triangle' was combos of those guys. Chet the Jet was usually the low cutter, very very quick and fluid, and Luke Jackson was setting picks for him at the block. Luke Jackson was powerful strong. One night after a game somebody had a flat out in the parking lot. LJ picked up the rear end of their car so they could lift the flat off and put their spare on. It was amazing to see. He was into lifting weights to some degree tho not like Wilt. Just naturally bull strong.

They ran two cutters a lot, and Wilt with his enormous hands, would roll the ball over the first guy's head and then either hand off to the next cutter or dish back outside to #15 or Wali J.
Wali Jones was the outside man, usually, on the weak side away from the triangle and they'd pass out to Wali when there were double teams. He got a ton of wide-open looks with that system.

Hal Greer ran the plays, you could say in a way he had Derek Fisher's job many years later on the Lakers, and Chet maybe would have had Glen Rice's role. But Greer got yelled at some for breaking loose from the system so I guess he had some of Jordan or Kobe's role lol in that way. Hal Greer was so good, man, he's forgot but wow he could destroy anybody off the dribble

It's easier to look at the 00s Laker triangle than the 90s Bulls, to get an idea of how the Sixers ran the Triple Post, because like with Shaq, everything revolved around the star center.

Boston had as good a plan for stopping the triangle as you could I suppose, basically Satch Sanders and Havlicek would get to the spot, block the lanes, you see? And get in the way of the cutters and Russell defended more the pass than the shot when Chamberlain had the ball. But that was about all you could do, just like nobody had an answer for the triangle when the Bulls or the Lakers ran it all those years later.

The Bucks had more of a pseudo triangle, not because they had any ball-hogging guys like Jordan or Kobe, but because Oscar was vastly talented at finding the play that nobody else saw. Also McGlocklin was such a deadly shooter that the Big O would start a set play but you could just pass to Jon, sit back and watch it drop in. Their two man game was almost exclusively McGlocklin & Jabbar, Kareem commanding the double team left McGlocklin open in the corner or along the baseline.
Basically you couldn't leave either one of those two open - ever.
The Bucks also ran a kind of Princeton sometimes, with all 4 guys starting clear out where the 3 point line would be 10 years later, and Kareem swinging between high and low post. With shooters like the Bucks had - remember, Jabbar had just a deadly jump shot - that spread was a nightmare in an era when the zone was totally illegal.
Chamberlain liked to stay around the hoop on defense, and he got whistled pretty regular for playing a zone instead of his man. He'd test the refs to see what he could get away with, see. Dude was really really smart; if the refs let it go, why he'd be a one man zone. When he got old and had bad knees, guys like Kareem & Dave Cowens - the real active guys who could bomb 18 footers - gave him a lot of trouble.

But anyhow, yeah they did a lot of the so-called modern offenses back then, although they were primitive compared to the sleek P Jax or Pops stuff that we've seen for the past 20 years. Film changed a lot of stuff

[fpliii]

They called it the Triple Post in those days.

On the Sixers, Coach Hannum ran the two man game with Chamberlain & Chet Walker, Chamberlain & Hal Greer, or Greer & Luke Jackson. Then the 'triangle' was combos of those guys. Chet the Jet was usually the low cutter, very very quick and fluid, and Luke Jackson was setting picks for him at the block. Luke Jackson was powerful strong. One night after a game somebody had a flat out in the parking lot. LJ picked up the rear end of their car so they could lift the flat off and put their spare on. It was amazing to see. He was into lifting weights to some degree tho not like Wilt. Just naturally bull strong.

They ran two cutters a lot, and Wilt with his enormous hands, would roll the ball over the first guy's head and then either hand off to the next cutter or dish back outside to #15 or Wali J.
Wali Jones was the outside man, usually, on the weak side away from the triangle and they'd pass out to Wali when there were double teams. He got a ton of wide-open looks with that system.

Hal Greer ran the plays, you could say in a way he had Derek Fisher's job many years later on the Lakers, and Chet maybe would have had Glen Rice's role. But Greer got yelled at some for breaking loose from the system so I guess he had some of Jordan or Kobe's role lol in that way. Hal Greer was so good, man, he's forgot but wow he could destroy anybody off the dribble

It's easier to look at the 00s Laker triangle than the 90s Bulls, to get an idea of how the Sixers ran the Triple Post, because like with Shaq, everything revolved around the star center.

Boston had as good a plan for stopping the triangle as you could I suppose, basically Satch Sanders and Havlicek would get to the spot, block the lanes, you see? And get in the way of the cutters and Russell defended more the pass than the shot when Chamberlain had the ball. But that was about all you could do, just like nobody had an answer for the triangle when the Bulls or the Lakers ran it all those years later.

The Bucks had more of a pseudo triangle, not because they had any ball-hogging guys like Jordan or Kobe, but because Oscar was vastly talented at finding the play that nobody else saw. Also McGlocklin was such a deadly shooter that the Big O would start a set play but you could just pass to Jon, sit back and watch it drop in. Their two man game was almost exclusively McGlocklin & Jabbar, Kareem commanding the double team left McGlocklin open in the corner or along the baseline.
Basically you couldn't leave either one of those two open - ever. The Bucks also ran a kind of Princeton sometimes, with all 4 guys starting clear out where the 3 point line would be 10 years later, and Kareem swinging between high and low post. With shooters like the Bucks had - remember, Jabbar had just a deadly jump shot - that spread was a nightmare in an era when the zone was totally illegal.
Chamberlain liked to stay around the hoop on defense, and he got whistled pretty regular for playing a zone instead of his man. He'd test the refs to see what he could get away with, see. Dude was really really smart; if the refs let it go, why he'd be a one man zone. When he got old and had bad knees, guys like Kareem & Dave Cowens - the real active guys who could bomb 18 footers - gave him a lot of trouble.

But anyhow, yeah they did a lot of the so-called modern offenses back then, although they were primitive compared to the sleek P Jax or Pops stuff that we've seen for the past 20 years. Film changed a lot of stuff
:applause:

Thanks a ton. You need to post more often, I learn a ton from your posts (and I'm certain I'm not the only one).

OT - Could you comment on Lanier's post game? Apologies if it's completely random, but some have suggested he might be one of the all-time great players down low. What about Reed?

[La Frescobaldi]

:applause:

Thanks a ton. You need to post more often, I learn a ton from your posts (and I'm certain I'm not the only one).

OT - Could you comment on Lanier's post game? Apologies if it's completely random, but some have suggested he might be one of the all-time great players down low. What about Reed?

Lanier had an incredible hook shot. Kareem is about the only center that gets recognition for the hook these days, but Big Bob Lanier was just deadly with it and so was Artis Gilmore. The thing about Lanier is, he was not just strong, but brutal in his early days. He played about as much like Shaq as you could at that day. Bruising, powerful inside, lot of offensive rebounds and putbacks and blood on the floor if you stood in his way. But Lanier had a nice outside touch too, could drop 10 or 12 footers all day. Post game was based on power but if he lined up against a guy like Dawkins or Reed - immovable objects - he had a whole bag of tricks. He could really run. One time I caught a game in Chicago this was you know, working life when going to a game got to be a rarity, anyhow he was lined up against old Tom Boerwinkle of the Bulls and Tom was a true 7 footer, really just a tower. Well Lanier hit a couple 5 foot hook shots in a row, so Boerwinkle starting lining up body to body - you know, force Lanier off his spot. So Bob dropped 2 or 3 eight footers bing bing bing. So the Bulls brought the double team and it made no difference at all except the hook shots were dropping from 10 or 12 feet out!!
Later on when he went to the Bucks he was Center on some great, great teams and he was less of a scorer due to strong teams, guys like Sidney Moncrief and Marques Johnson... and and also Age chased him down and caught up, like happens to all of em in the end.

Willis Reed is a whole entire different level. The Captain had a totally modern look to his game, by which I mean he would drive like a forward, shoot like a guard, etc. But yet he was immensely strong. The Captain is the only guy I can remember that could move Wilt Chamberlain. Willis was enormously popular in the big Eastern cities, even more maybe than Walt Frazier or Earl Monroe. But as far as post game, he excelled at every aspect - power, grace, skill, he had it all. Truly a top 50 player and completely underrated today. He'd be the best center today and nobody would be close. He didn't have a great vertical but it didn't matter; in the post, he played like Pekovic. If you've seen the great Montenegrin in one of his torrid downpours, well Reed was like that in the post. Too strong, too many moves, guys just kinda stood there and waited to be overpowered. Much, much quicker than Nikola though. They have other similarities, actually; both constantly injured.

But Willis could drive from anywhere, and he had a way of driving hard a few times then he would screech to a halt for a sweet pull up jumper that would leave defenders sprawling.

Oh yeah the Captain, he was for real. Injuries did that man a vast injustice to his total legacy.

[fpliii]

Lanier had an incredible hook shot. Kareem is about the only center that gets recognition for the hook these days, but Big Bob Lanier was just deadly with it and so was Artis Gilmore. The thing about Lanier is, he was not just strong, but brutal in his early days. He played about as much like Shaq as you could at that day. Bruising, powerful inside, lot of offensive rebounds and putbacks and blood on the floor if you stood in his way. But Lanier had a nice outside touch too, could drop 10 or 12 footers all day. Post game was based on power but if he lined up against a guy like Dawkins or Reed - immovable objects - he had a whole bag of tricks. He could really run. One time I caught a game in Chicago this was you know, working life when going to a game got to be a rarity, anyhow he was lined up against old Tom Boerwinkle of the Bulls and Tom was a true 7 footer, really just a tower. Well Lanier hit a couple 5 foot hook shots in a row, so Boerwinkle starting lining up body to body - you know, force Lanier off his spot. So Bob dropped 2 or 3 eight footers bing bing bing. So the Bulls brought the double team and it made no difference at all except the hook shots were dropping from 10 or 12 feet out!!
Later on when he went to the Bucks he was Center on some great, great teams and he was less of a scorer due to strong teams, guys like Sidney Moncrief and Marques Johnson... and and also Age chased him down and caught up, like happens to all of em in the end.

Willis Reed is a whole entire different level. The Captain had a totally modern look to his game, by which I mean he would drive like a forward, shoot like a guard, etc. But yet he was immensely strong. The Captain is the only guy I can remember that could move Wilt Chamberlain. Willis was enormously popular in the big Eastern cities, even more maybe than Walt Frazier or Earl Monroe. But as far as post game, he excelled at every aspect - power, grace, skill, he had it all. Truly a top 50 player and completely underrated today. He'd be the best center today and nobody would be close. He didn't have a great vertical but it didn't matter; in the post, he played like Pekovic. If you've seen the great Montenegrin in one of his torrid downpours, well Reed was like that in the post. Too strong, too many moves, guys just kinda stood there and waited to be overpowered. Much, much quicker than Nikola though. They have other similarities, actually; both constantly injured.

But Willis could drive from anywhere, and he had a way of driving hard a few times then he would screech to a halt for a sweet pull up jumper that would leave defenders sprawling.

Oh yeah the Captain, he was for real. Injuries did that man a vast injustice to his total legacy.
:bowdown:

That's great range on Lanier's hook. Also, I had no clue Reed was that strong. Must've been a monster of a player.

[CavaliersFTW]

The majority of that footage is playoff footage :cheers:
bump

[dankok8]

Bill Russell has just as many playoff rebounding records as Wilt and many are actually more important such as career RPG. Here is a list of all playoff rebounding records. It's 5-5 in playoffs records and Russell has a 6-3 edge in Finals records.



Game

Most rebounds in a game

41 by Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia 76ers vs. Boston Celtics on April 5, 1967

Most rebounds in a half

26 by Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia 76ers vs. San Francisco Warriors on April 16, 1967

Most rebounds in a quarter

19 by Bill Russell, Boston Celtics vs. Los Angeles Lakers on April 18, 1962

Series

3-game series

Most rebounds - 84 by Bill Russell, Boston Celtics (vs. Syracuse Nationals), 1957 (28.0 rpg)

4-game series

Most rebounds - 118 by Bill Russell, Boston Celtics (vs. Minneapolis Lakers), 1959 (29.5 rpg)

5-game series

Most rebounds - 160 by Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia 76ers (vs. Boston Celtics), 1967 (32.0 rpg)

6-game series

Most rebounds - 171 by Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia 76ers (vs. San Francisco Warriors), 1967 (28.5 rpg)

7-game series

Most rebounds - 220 by Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia 76ers (vs. Boston Celtics), 1965 (31.4 rpg)

Career

Most rebounds

4,104 by Bill Russell

Highest rebounds per game average (min. 25 games)

24.9 by Bill Russell


Finals Game

Most rebounds in a game

40 by Bill Russell, Boston Celtics (vs. St. Louis Hawks) on March 29, 1960
40 by Bill Russell, Boston Celtics (vs. Los Angeles Lakers) on April 18, 1962 (OT)

Most rebounds in a half

26 by Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia 76ers (vs. San Francisco Warriors) on April 16, 1967

Most rebounds in a quarter

19 by Bill Russell, Boston Celtics (vs. Los Angeles Lakers) on April 18, 1962

Finals Series

4-game series

Most rebounds - 118 by Bill Russell, Boston Celtics (vs. Minneapolis Lakers), 1959 (29.5 rpg)

5-game series

Most rebounds - 144 by Bill Russell, Boston Celtics (vs. St. Louis Hawks), 1961 (28.8 rpg)

6-game series

Most rebounds - 171 by Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia 76ers (vs. San Francisco Warriors), 1967 (28.5 rpg)

7-game series

Most rebounds - 189 by Bill Russell, Boston Celtics (vs. Los Angeles Lakers), 1962 (27.0 rpg)

Finals Career

Most rebounds

1,718 by Bill Russell

Highest rebounds per game average (min. 10 games)

24.6 by Wilt Chamberlain (35 games)


Wilt's finals average is 24.63 rpg and Russell's is 24.57 rpg. We know that Russell played very limited minutes in two finals games in 1958 because of injury and ended up with a measly 13 and 8 rebounds, respectively. Exclude those two games and Russell is at 24.8 rpg well above Wilt.

Wilt fans also like to bring up Wilt's regular season record of 55 rebounds. Well Russell has the next three best efforts in NBA history of 51, 49, and 49 rebounds.

Anyways this was posted to debunk these "Wilt was easily the GOAT rebounder" arguments that his fans seem to propagate around here. Russell was just as good. Wilt fans seem fixated on their H2H's only (as if they never played against anyone else... :oldlol: ) and of course they fail to account for minutes played. Per 36 or per 48 Russell's rebounding numbers are better than Chamberlain's and significantly so actually. And in several of their H2H series Russell was probably grabbing as many or more rebounds per minute as Wilt (1960 EDF, 1962 EDF, 1964 Fin. 1968 EDF...).

[deja vu]

Most dominant REGULAR SEASON scorer, I have to admit.

But he literally wilts in the postseason. :lol

Wilt's postseason PPG vs. the Celtics = 23.39

Wilt's postseason PPG vs. other teams = 22.3

LOL

[dankok8]

And I'm tired of "If Wilt faced the Lakers" argument. What if Kareem faced the Celtics in '71 and '72 (when he averaged about 41 and 45 ppg on Cowens), what if Shaq faced Todd MacCulloch and Rik Smits every year in the finals? Enough hypotheticals. Kareem has faced tons of brutal defensive centers outside of Thurmond and Wilt. Guys like Walton, Unseld, Reed, Cowens, and the GOAT frontcourt in the 80's Celtics. Let's put a rest to these speculative arguments shall we.

Wilt averaged 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, and 4.5 apg on 51.5% shooting through his first 67 playoffs games. However he also shot 49.6% from the free throw line, played uninspired defense rather often, and didn't know how to play to win. And in many big games he managed to disappear/choke.

[CavaliersFTW]

Dankok, Wilt has a greater playoff TRB % than Russell, in fact it got better and better the older he got despite his TRB decreasing (league pace and minutes dropping). since you love to point out total rebounds from that era are inflated as if it belittles wilts rebounding records I'm sure you'll appreciate that wilt was grabbing more available rebounds in the playoffs than bill Russell instead of just using the raw numbers... Ur own logic backfires your assertion that Russell was a better playoff rebounder, ain't that something :oldlol:

[dankok8]

Dankok, Wilt has a greater playoff TRB % than Russell, in fact it got better and better the older he got despite his TRB decreasing (league pace and minutes dropping). since you love to point out total rebounds from that era are inflated as if it belittles wilts rebounding records I'm sure you'll appreciate that wilt was grabbing more available rebounds in the playoffs than bill Russell instead of just using the raw numbers... Ur own logic backfires your assertion that Russell was a better playoff rebounder, ain't that something :oldlol:

I wasn't trying to prove that Russell was a better rebounder but that they were about even. Read my post. I never said Russell was better.

As for playoff TRB%... Russell led the league in 1963 when Chamberlain missed the playoffs and has the edge over Wilt in the postseason in 1960, 1961, and 1964. Wilt has the edge in 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, and 1969. Of course we also know Russell was already on a clear decline as a player from 1966 onwards.

It's just about as even as you can get!

[LAZERUSS]

I wasn't trying to prove that Russell was a better rebounder but that they were about even. Read my post. I never said Russell was better.

As for playoff TRB%... Russell led the league in 1963 when Chamberlain missed the playoffs and has the edge over Wilt in the postseason in 1960, 1961, and 1964. Wilt has the edge in 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, and 1969. Of course we also know Russell was already on a clear decline as a player from 1966 onwards.

It's just about as even as you can get!

Not H2H. Chamberlain annihilated Russell in their 49 post-season H2H games. Both played nearly every minute of every game, too. And yet Wilt was CRUSHING Russell by margins of 30.2 to 25.0, 31.4 to 25.2, and even 32.0 to 23.4 rpg. And I could list GAME-AFTER-GAME in which Chamberlain just BRUTALIZED Russell on the glass. Not even remotely close.

And, of course, Chamberlain was averaging 25-30+ ppg, handing out 4-9 apg, shooting around 10% over the post-season league average, and dominating defensively at the same time. NONE of which Russell EVER did against Wilt.

[CavaliersFTW]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-c-A6DnfdO5Q/U17fHcwWNHI/AAAAAAAAFF8/VKBsSUA0TEw/s800/Wilt%2520skies3.jpg

Rare picture of Paul Bunyan on 23 year old legs :bowdown:

[LAZERUSS]

And I'm tired of "If Wilt faced the Lakers" argument. What if Kareem faced the Celtics in '71 and '72 (when he averaged about 41 and 45 ppg on Cowens), what if Shaq faced Todd MacCulloch and Rik Smits every year in the finals? Enough hypotheticals. Kareem has faced tons of brutal defensive centers outside of Thurmond and Wilt. Guys like Walton, Unseld, Reed, Cowens, and the GOAT frontcourt in the 80's Celtics. Let's put a rest to these speculative arguments shall we.

Wilt averaged 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, and 4.5 apg on 51.5% shooting through his first 67 playoffs games. However he also shot 49.6% from the free throw line, played uninspired defense rather often, and didn't know how to play to win. And in many big games he managed to disappear/choke.

Name them.

Certainly not game seven of the '62 EDF's, when by newspaper recaps (and even Cousy) Wilt played OUTSTANDING defense (and scored his team's last five points, including a tying basket with a few seconds left.) If anyone disappeared in that game seven, it was Russell, who, as usual, was nowhere to be found at the most pivotal times.

Certainly not game six of the '68 EDF's, when a one-legged Wilt, who had played every minute of that series, and played brilliantly enough in game five that that series should have been over. And he didn't disappear in game seven, either. His teammates collectively shot .333 from the field, and ignored him. Oh, and as always, Chamberlain outscored and massively outrebounded Russell in that game.

Certainly not game seven of the '69 Finals, when he easily outplayed a Russell, who, again, disappeared in the entire 4th quarter.

Certainly not game seven of the '70 Finals, when Wilt was the ONLY Laker to play well. And of course, NO ONE else would have even been playing only four months after major knee surgery, either.

If you want CHOKE JOBS, and in BIGGEST games, I will be more than happy to spend half-an-hour listing all of Kareem's. Hell, he wouldn't even play with a sprained ankle forcryingoutloud (and it was probably a good thing for the Lakers, who blew out the Sixers on their home floor in the clinching game six on the road...maybe KAJ's selfishness had actually hindered the Lakers in the previous five games, right?)

And "uninspired" defense??? That was KAJ for almost his entire career, at least the last 15 of years of it. In fact, "uninspired" was his moniker. Even "Airplane" took a shot at that well known FACT.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080339/quotes


Joey: Wait a minute. I know you. You're Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. You play basketball for the Los Angeles Lakers.

Roger Murdock: I'm sorry, son, but you must have me confused with someone else. My name is Roger Murdock. I'm the co-pilot.

Joey: You are Kareem! I've seen you play. My dad's got season tickets.

Roger Murdock: I think you should go back to your seat now, Joey. Right, Clarence?

Captain Oveur: Nahhhhhh, he's not bothering anyone. Let him stay here.

Roger Murdock: But just remember, my name is...

[showing his nametag]

Roger Murdock: ROGER MURDOCK. I'm an airline pilot.

Joey: I think you're the greatest, but my dad says you don't work hard enough on defense.

[Kareem gets angry]

Joey: And he says that lots of times, you don't even run down court. And that you don't really try... except during the playoffs.

Roger Murdock: [breaking character] The hell I don't! LISTEN, KID! I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I'm out there busting my buns every night. Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes.

[dankok8]

Not H2H. Chamberlain annihilated Russell in their 49 post-season H2H games. Both played nearly every minute of every game, too. And yet Wilt was CRUSHING Russell by margins of 30.2 to 25.0, 31.4 to 25.2, and even 32.0 to 23.4 rpg. And I could list GAME-AFTER-GAME in which Chamberlain just BRUTALIZED Russell on the glass. Not even remotely close.

And, of course, Chamberlain was averaging 25-30+ ppg, handing out 4-9 apg, shooting around 10% over the post-season league average, and dominating defensively at the same time. NONE of which Russell EVER did against Wilt.

It's not all about H2H battles. Wilt and Russell both played less than a third of their total playoff games against each other. Russell has a higher career playoff rebounding average.

Plus come on man Wilt didn't annihilate him H2H... It's 30-18-1 in their playoff rebounding battles which means that Russell outrebounded him 18/49 or 36.7% of the time. That's a very sizable %... From 1960 EDF to 1964 Finals it was practically even at 9-8-1 and then Russell began declining.

Correct for minutes played and the difference is even smaller.

There are only minutes played for 1960 EDF, 1962 EDF, 1964 Fin, 1968 EDF, and 1969 Finals so I'll post the per 48 rebounding numbers for those series.

1960 EDF -- Wilt - 29.1 rpg Russell - 30.3 rpg
1962 EDF -- Wilt - 26.9 rpg Russell - 26.1 rpg
1964 Fin -- Wilt - 28.9 rpg Russell - 28.8 rpg
1968 EDF -- Wilt - 25.2 rpg Russell - 24.9 rpg
1969 Fin -- Wilt - 25.4 rpg Russell - 21.1 rpg

If someone wants to convince me those are huge differences go right ahead!

[dankok8]

Name them.

Certainly not game seven of the '62 EDF's, when by newspaper recaps (and even Cousy) Wilt played OUTSTANDING defense (and scored his team's last five points, including a tying basket with a few seconds left.) If anyone disappeared in that game seven, it was Russell, who, as usual, was nowhere to be found at the most pivotal times.

Certainly not game six of the '68 EDF's, when a one-legged Wilt, who had played every minute of that series, and played brilliantly enough in game five that that series should have been over. And he didn't disappear in game seven, either. His teammates collectively shot .333 from the field, and ignored him. Oh, and as always, Chamberlain outscored and massively outrebounded Russell in that game.

Certainly not game seven of the '69 Finals, when he easily outplayed a Russell, who, again, disappeared in the entire 4th quarter.

Certainly not game seven of the '70 Finals, when Wilt was the ONLY Laker to play well. And of course, NO ONE else would have even been playing only four months after major knee surgery, either.

If you want CHOKE JOBS, and in BIGGEST games, I will be more than happy to spend half-an-hour listing all of Kareem's. Hell, he wouldn't even play with a sprained ankle forcryingoutloud (and it was probably a good thing for the Lakers, who blew out the Sixers on their home floor in the clinching game six on the road...maybe KAJ's selfishness had actually hindered the Lakers in the previous five games, right?)

And "uninspired" defense??? That was KAJ for almost his entire career, at least the last 15 of years of it. In fact, "uninspired" was his moniker. Even "Airplane" took a shot at that well known FACT.

Enough with the excuses... just admit that Wilt did something wrong!

[LAZERUSS]

It's not all about H2H battles. Wilt and Russell both played less than a third of their total playoff games against each other. Russell has a higher career playoff rebounding average.

Plus come on man Wilt didn't annihilate him H2H... It's 30-18-1 in their rebounding battles which means that Russell outrebounded him 18/49 or 36.7% of the time. That's a very sizable %...

Correct for minutes played and the difference is even smaller.

There are only minutes played for 1960 EDF, 1962 EDF, 1964 Fin, 1968 EDF, and 1969 Finals so I'll post the per 48 rebounding numbers for those series.

1960 EDF -- Wilt - 29.1 rpg Russell - 30.3 rpg
1962 EDF -- Wilt - 26.9 rpg Russell - 26.1 rpg
1964 Fin -- Wilt - 28.9 rpg Russell - 28.8 rpg
1968 EDF -- Wilt - 25.2 rpg Russell - 24.9 rpg
1969 Fin -- Wilt - 25.4 rpg Russell - 21.1 rpg

If someone wants to convince me those are huge differences go right ahead!

Oh of course, ignore '65, when Russell averaged 47 mpg, and Wilt likely was at 49... and in which Chamberlain shelled Russell by nearly SIX rpg.

'66:

When Wilt outrebounded Russell by FIVE per game, went 4-1 in H2H's, and had a margin as high as 32-18.


Or the '67 EDF's, when both played nearly every minute of that series...and guess what...

Game One: 120 TOTAL rebounds available:
Russell: 15
Wilt: 32 (to go along with 24 points, 13 assists, and 12 blocks.)

Game Five: 128 TOTAL rebounds available:
Russell: 21
Wilt: 36 (as well as 29 points, 13 assists, and 7 blocks.)

Game Three: 134 TOTAL rebounds available:
Russell: 29 (good job)
Wilt: ... 41 (all-time playoff record.)

Overall, in that series, Wilt held a 25-18 TRB% margin. Just annihilated Russell.



Russell couldn't hold a candle to Wilt in H2H rebounding.

As a sidenote, Russell played all 48 minutes in the playoff game in which Wilt outrebounded him 41-29...AND, Russell played all 48 minutes in the regular season game in which Wilt outrebounded him by a ... 55-19 margin!

[KingBeasley08]

Based on everything I read, it seems like Wilt was a more talented, big man version of James Harden. Had no will to win. Just cared about banging tons of women (which he did, I'll give props) and playing for the money. He got 2 rings but someone with his talent, relative to his era, shouldn't have any excuses not to have at least 8 or 9 rings.

[CavaliersFTW]

Based on everything I read, it seems like Wilt was a more talented, big man version of James Harden. Had no will to win. Just cared about banging tons of women (which he did, I'll give props) and playing for the money. He got 2 rings but someone with his talent, relative to his era, shouldn't have any excuses not to have at least 8 or 9 rings.
"will to win"

I lump such statements along with the "wanted it more" and/or "didn't show up". Fluff terms thrown around by journalists who don't understand the game and can't speak X's and O's. Such statements are what one resorts to when they have no comprehension of the actual game of basketball :oldlol:

[dankok8]

Oh of course, ignore '65, when Russell averaged 47 mpg, and Wilt likely was at 49... and in which Chamberlain shelled Russell by nearly SIX rpg.

'66:

When Wilt outrebounded Russell by FIVE per game, went 4-1 in H2H's, and had a margin as high as 32-18.


Or the '67 EDF's, when both played nearly every minute of that series...and guess what...

Game One: 120 TOTAL rebounds available:
Russell: 15
Wilt: 32 (to go along with 24 points, 13 assists, and 12 blocks.)

Game Five: 128 TOTAL rebounds available:
Russell: 21
Wilt: 36 (as well as 29 points, 13 assists, and 7 blocks.)

Game Three: 134 TOTAL rebounds available:
Russell: 29 (good job)
Wilt: ... 41 (all-time playoff record.)

Overall, in that series, Wilt held a 25-18 TRB% margin. Just annihilated Russell.



Russell couldn't hold a candle to Wilt in H2H rebounding.

As a sidenote, Russell played all 48 minutes in the playoff game in which Wilt outrebounded him 41-29...AND, Russell played all 48 minutes in the regular season game in which Wilt outrebounded him by a ... 55-19 margin!

I don't have exact minutes for both players for 1965 EDF, 1966 EDF, and 1967 EDF. Coincidentally those are the series Wilt beat Russell by bigger margins. :oldlol: Still even 25-18 TRB% margin is not annihilation (equivalent to a 16-12 rpg margin at today's pace) and that is by far the worst beatdown Russell has suffered in the playoffs. And he was already in decline while Wilt was at his peak.

My other point is not all about H2H battles. Russell was awesome rebounding against other greats as well. Guys like Bellamy, Pettit, and Lucas... Russell just killed them on the glass in the postseason often by larger margins than Wilt did. And he has as many rebounding records and performances as Wilt does overall. They are 1a and 1b when it comes to rebounding IMO.

[Asukal]

"will to win"

I lump such statements along with the "wanted it more" and/or "didn't show up". Fluff terms thrown around by journalists who don't understand the game and can't speak X's and O's. Such statements are what one resorts to when they have no comprehension of the actual game of basketball :oldlol:

You are equally as ignorant if you believe intangibles do not exist. The mental aspect is just as important as the physical aspect of the game. Keep making excuses for your boy, majority does not agree with you. :applause:

[LAZERUSS]

I don't have exact minutes for both players for 1965 EDF, 1966 EDF, and 1967 EDF. Coincidentally those are the series Wilt beat Russell by bigger margins. :oldlol: Still even 25-18 TRB% margin is not annihilation (equivalent to a 16-12 rpg margin at today's pace) and that is by far the worst beatdown Russell has suffered in the playoffs. And he was already in decline while Wilt was at his peak.

My other point is not all about H2H battles. Russell was awesome rebounding against other greats as well. Guys like Bellamy, Pettit, and Lucas... Russell just killed them on the glass in the postseason often by larger margins than Wilt did. And he has as many rebounding records and performances as Wilt does overall. They are 1a and 1b when it comes to rebounding IMO.

Well, how about 1 and 2?

Just kidding. They were both exceptional rebounders and defenders. But, in Wilt's defense, he was asked to do more. In any case, I'm sure even Chamberlain, himself, wouldn't be offended by a 1a and 1b in this discussion.

:cheers:

[CavaliersFTW]

You are equally as ignorant if you believe intangibles do not exist. The mental aspect is just as important as the physical aspect of the game. Keep making excuses for your boy, majority does not agree with you. :applause:
^--- Living proof that DisnEySPN cultivates a category of fan that follows simple journalist narratives about the "psyche" of athletes instead of actually understanding how the sport is played.

[CavaliersFTW]

Deuce is so mad he made a thread about this thread :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Deuce is so mad he made a thread about this thread :oldlol:
I just want to see accuracy. MJ is the most dominant scorer ever and it's not even close.

[fpliii]

One thing about Wilt, is there any anecdotal evidence about his FT's late in game situations? Yeah, he was horrible at the line, one of the worst ever. But if he didn't become a worse FT shooter late/in close games/in the playoffs, why are holding it against him twice? If he did get worse in the playoffs from the line, I can see the criticism.

I wish we had some tape of that G7 in 68. We have footage from 69, 70 so people can judge for themselves, but nothing from 68.

[CavaliersFTW]

One thing about Wilt, is there any anecdotal evidence about his FT's late in game situations? Yeah, he was horrible at the line, one of the worst ever. But if he didn't become a worse FT shooter late/in close games/in the playoffs, why are holding it against him twice? If he did get worse in the playoffs from the line, I can see the criticism.

I wish we had some tape of that G7 in 68. We have footage from 69, 70 so people can judge for themselves, but nothing from 68.
Watch Hal15Greer channel, look up all those 1960's and 1970's winek film documentaries he has about the NBA, you'll note that in several different recaps of series and Finals, the narrator makes an effort to mention Wilt hitting free throws in "clutch time". I took the audio from one such segment and plugged it at the end of my scoring compilation.

[fpliii]

Watch Hal15Greer channel, look up all those 1960's and 1970's winek film documentaries he has about the NBA, you'll note that in several different recaps of series and Finals, the narrator makes an effort to mention Wilt hitting free throws in "clutch time". I took the audio from one such segment and plugged it at the end of my scoring compilation.
Good call.

BTW, just watched this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ

22:00-23:52 covers the 68 EDF. A couple nice plays there.

Is this video, plus that short highlights video against the Sonics, the only footage of Philly that season (I think there are highlights of the ASG too, but I'm concerned about video of the Sixers)? I was talking about that team under Hannum and the triangle with Frescobaldi, wondering if there are any other clips other than these:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9877013&postcount=119

[Asukal]

^--- Living proof that DisnEySPN cultivates a category of fan that follows simple journalist narratives about the "psyche" of athletes instead of actually understanding how the sport is played.

^Living proof of a stat obsessed wilt stan who clearly never played any sport in his life. :rolleyes:

[CavaliersFTW]

^Living proof of a stat obsessed wilt stan who clearly never played any sport in his life. :rolleyes:
wrong on both assumptions

[CavaliersFTW]

Even though he has been dead for 14 years Wilt Chamberlain still puts up all-star center numbers, Roy Hibbert 0 pts and 0 rebounds yesterday... same stats as the late Wilt put up yesterday :bowdown:

[jlip]

Even though he has been dead for 14 years Wilt Chamberlain still puts up all-star center numbers, Roy Hibbert 0 pts and 0 rebounds yesterday... same stats as the late Wilt put up yesterday :bowdown:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[CavaliersFTW]

:bowdown: