Playoff performances better than 2012 ECF G6?

[Solefade]

Which performances can you honestly put above this one by Lebron? especially when you consider everything...the circumstances and the immense pressure of this make or break legacy game...costing your team a championship in 2011... and let's be honest, celtics were a lot better than we gave them credit for...they played with a lot of heart and savviness

http://youtu.be/_7kkbpcgXI8

[IncarceratedBob]

MJ has a handful that are clearly better

Celtics were on their final legs, they were garbage but still probably a top 15 all time playoff performance

[riseagainst]

great performance. But the Heat were still the favorites in the series, no matter how much "heart and savviness" the Celtics had....

Oh, and Magic's rookie year game in the finals without Kareem is the single greatest individual playoff performance of all time.

[BlackVVaves]

Michael and Magic come to mind. Had many awestruck performances, some of which were in the Finals.

Bron's performance was top 10 (maybe a little hyperbole, but definitely within the 15 best individual performances I can remember seeing considering the context). If you want to call it the best, that's cool. We know you're a stan so it's not like it matters :confusedshrug:

[ThePhantomCreep]

2012 Celtics had no business being up 3-2 in the first place, they clearly had foot and a half in the grave. Great performance, but not the goat.

[aj1987]

Michael and Magic come to mind. Had many awestruck performances, some of which were in the Finals.

Bron's performance was top 10 at minimum. If you want to call it the best, that's cool. We know you're a stan so it's not like it matters :confusedshrug:
The only thing that makes the performance top 10 is the storyline. LeBron had better stat lines than that one in playoffs.

[Solefade]

specific performances though? and also i'm not saying Heat weren't the favorites to win this series, just addressing that everyone calls this celtics team garbage when they really weren't :confusedshrug: "being on their last legs" is not that good of an excuse...2013 SAS team were on their "last legs" but were clearly the best team in the west

a lot of people mention jordan's g4 of 93' finals was one of MJ's best...while statistically it was very good and better than lebron's, it didn't have the same pressure and this is what i'm really trying to get at when i say it's not quite as good as bron's g6

[BlackVVaves]

The only thing that makes the performance top 10 is the storyline. LeBron had better stat lines than that one in playoffs.

And like the rest of us objective observes of the game keep telling you Miami fans, it's not all about the stat sheet.

Edit: I'll remove the "minimum" tag though. That seems to convey his performance was even better than I perceive.

[aj1987]

And like the rest of us objective observes of the game keep telling you Miami fans, it's not all about the stat sheet.
I was agreeing with you. LeBon has games in which he put up better stats, but no one remembers them because those aren't all-time great performances. GOAT performances need to have a good storyline to go along with the numbers. Going by that, that performance is definitely top 10, but far from being the GOAT performance.

[Solefade]

I was agreeing with you. LeBon has games in which he put up better stats, but no one remembers them because those aren't all-time great performances. GOAT performances need to have a good storyline to go along with the numbers. Going by that, that performance is definitely top 10, but far from being the GOAT performance.

I agree and by no means I'm calling this THE GOAT performance but I def think this deserves top 5.

[BlackVVaves]

I was agreeing with you. LeBon has games in which he put up better stats, but no one remembers them because those aren't all-time great performances. GOAT performances need to have a good storyline to go along with the numbers. Going by that, that performance is definitely top 10, but far from being the GOAT performance.

Ohh, gotcha gotcha :cheers:

Top 10-15 for sure. Gotta give it to him for dominating like that with the pressure on a million hundred thousand :applause:

[Solefade]

Ohh, gotcha gotcha :cheers:

Top 10-15 for sure. Gotta give it to him for dominating like that with the pressure on a million hundred thousand :applause:


:kobe:

[russwest0]

Game 2 of that series there was a better performance actually, from the refs.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobes b2b 40 point games in 01 were very impressive

[Uncle Drew]

Young Michael Jordan dropping 63 on Larry Bird and one of the greatest teams in the history of basketball.

[IncarceratedBob]

mj 91 finals game 2 down 0-1 to lakers, nba record 13 consecutive fgs, 33/13/7 shot 83% from the field

mj 92 finals game 1 35 points at the half, set the tone for the entire series. 39/11/3 in 34 minutes

mj 93 finals game 4 55/8/4, effectively ended series

mj 97 finals game 5 flu game

mj 98 finals game 6 imo goat playoff game

so lebron isn't top 5 but like i said earlier this one is top 15.

[Solefade]

mj 91 finals game 2
mj 92 finals game 1
mj 93 finals game 4
mj 97 finals game 5
mj 98 finals game 6

so lebron isn't top 5 but like i said earlier this one is top 15.


but those aren't better with the exception of arguably game 4 of 93

[riseagainst]

but those aren't better with the exception of arguably game 4 of 93

flu game is infinitely better when you "consider the circumstances".


game 6 of 98 finals is also infinitely better as well especially when you "consider the circumstances". Game winning steal and game winning shot.

[red1]

Game 2 of that series there was a better performance actually, from the refs.
says the guy who stans the most babied player of all time :oldlol:

[Solefade]

flu game is infinitely better when you "consider the circumstances".


game 6 of 98 finals is also infinitely better as well especially when you "consider the circumstances". Game winning steal and game winning shot.


my mistake you're right...

flu game is good but what game winning steal and winning shot? he made a 3 but you're not referring to the bryson russell pushoff are you? lol

edit: nm misread your post, thought you were referring to the flu game as the one with the steal and game winning shot

[riseagainst]

flu game is good but what game winning steal and winning shot? that's not the same game lol

:biggums:

[Uncle Drew]

flu game is good but what game winning steal and winning shot? he made a 3 but you're not referring to the bryson russell pushoff are you? lol
His last shot as a Bull..

[Keno]

when you put everything in context, this is the best performance of all time. if lebron lost that game, he should of just retired, that's how bad it would of been. lebron could of had 50+ but if i recall, he only played the first few minutes of the 4th. dominated every single minute he was on the floor.

[TylerOO]

Taking context into account.....none. Weight of the world was on LeBron's shoulders and he came through big time.

[riseagainst]

when you put everything in context, this is the best performance of all time. if lebron lost that game, he should of just retired, that's how bad it would of been. lebron could of had 50+ but if i recall, he only played the first few minutes of the 4th. dominated every single minute he was on the floor.

Lebron played like 8 minutes.

[imdaman99]

Walt Clyde Frazier Game 7 against the Lakers in the Finals :rockon:

Didn't witness it though :(

[Keno]

Lebron played like 8 minutes.

oh yea, he was planning on playing the full 48 minutes. still tho, if he played the last 4 minutes he could of had 50+ easily.

[IncarceratedBob]

Magic Johnson game 6 of 1980 finals

With KAJ out with injury and most people assuming the Lakers would be fine with a game 7 Magic "played" center and dropped 42/15/7/3 while playing all but one minute

Pretty awesome story line, amazing stats to boot

[sammichoffate]

Kobe's Series against the Suns in 2010 WCF, Lebron's circumstance was massive though.

[OldSchoolBBall]

but those aren't better with the exception of arguably game 4 of 93

Jordan's game 1 against Portland in '92 is DEFINITELY better. Dude could have had 45+ points at the half had he not sat out 7:00, and 60+ for the game.

[navy]

Legacy wise? None.

[sdot_thadon]

I've been trying to come up with one but I've got nothing. The circumstances and his response put this over the top in my eyes. Game 7 last year was nice too but I think this one blows that away.
Let's rewind to 2012, Lebron was still ringless after failing mightily the previous finals. After all the weight of the decision's fallout, was on the verge of being eliminated by a Celtics team we thought had expired. His legacy would have never recovered. He came out and took the game by the throat, silenced the critics for a bit. He delivered.

[Ronaldinho]

I've been trying to come up with one but I've got nothing. The circumstances and his response put this over the top in my eyes. Game 7 last year was nice too but I think this one blows that away.
Let's rewind to 2012, Lebron was still ringless after failing mightily the previous finals. After all the weight of the decision's fallout, was on the verge of being eliminated by a Celtics team we thought had expired. His legacy would have never recovered. He came out and took the game by the throat, silenced the critics for a bit. He delivered.
Yeah, a hell of a game by Lebron.

I really like Kobe finals 09 game 1 too, 40/8/8/2/2 and only one TO, after losing to the Celtics in 08 he was on a hell of a pressure to get that forth ring. Losing the first game would be real bad.

[livinglegend]

GOAT if you consider all the pressure that he had on him.

[TheMarkMadsen]

So Lebron who had completely stacked the deck in his favor 2 years prior and was is in danger of failing for the 2nd year in a row with his stacked team beats an old and hobbled Celtics team who nobody expected to even make the finals, and all of a sudden it's a legacy game :lol

The only reason it was such a big game in the first place is because they hadn't been living up to the expectations Lebron/ the HEAT put on themselves..

Beating the Celtics and making the finals is what they were supposed to do, there was no reason for that team to be a game away from being eliminated by the 2012 version of the Celtics

It was a great game by Lebon, but this "context" needs to be put in context

[sdot_thadon]

So Lebron who had completely stacked the deck in his favor 2 years prior and was is in danger of failing for the 2nd year in a row with his stacked team beats an old and hobbled Celtics team who nobody expected to even make the finals, and all of a sudden it's a legacy game :lol

The only reason it was such a big game in the first place is because they hadn't been living up to the expectations Lebron/ the HEAT put on themselves..

Beating the Celtics and making the finals is what they were supposed to do, there was no reason for that team to be a game away from being eliminated by the 2012 version of the Celtics

It was a great game by Lebon, but this "context" needs to be put in context
I mean you can twist it however it need be, but it is what it is. The whole stacking the deck premise is pretty much part of what made it so great. And regardless of what you say about boston in hindsight, they were worldchamps at one point and had the Heat on the ropes.

[cos88]

people talk about ray allen saving lebron's legacy a year later as if he hit a 6 point shot and was the best player during those playoffs but lebron vs celtics game 6 was actually a LEGACY GAME. elimination game on the road in boston nonetheless .


one of the best, hard to make a top but the same tier as magic's in 80, russel's 30-40 in game 7, many jordan games or even the same lebron in 2007 vs detroit.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I mean you can twist it however it need be, but it is what it is. The whole stacking the deck premise is pretty much part of what made it so great. And regardless of what you say about boston in hindsight, they were worldchamps at one point and had the Heat on the ropes.


Boston had been world champs 4 years prior.. and had been beaten by the HEAT in 5 games the year before.. :rolleyes:



The whole stacking the deck premise is pretty much part of what made it so great.

that doesn't make any sense, the ONLY REASON that there was so much pressure on this game is because people were thinking "how the fck is Lebron about to get eliminated 2 years in a row with the best team in the league around him :facepalm "

that's why there was pressure, not because Lebron was facing some incredible opponent that nobody thought he could beat..but because Lebron was losing to opponents that he had no right to be losing to with the team he had around him..

[diamenz]

mj 1992 ecsf bulls vs knicks game 7

42pts 15/29 fg 12/13ft 6rb 4ast 2stl 3blks... zero 3's attempted.

one of my fav games from mike, with the famous chase down block on mcdaniel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWsgkauZb-U

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Boston had been world champs 4 years prior.. and had been beaten by the HEAT in 5 games the year before.. :rolleyes:




that doesn't make any sense, the ONLY REASON that there was so much pressure on this game is because people were thinking "how the fck is Lebron about to get eliminated 2 years in a row with the best team in the league around him :facepalm "

that's why there was pressure, not because Lebron was facing some incredible opponent that nobody thought he could beat..but because Lebron was losing to opponents that he had no right to be losing to with the team he had around him..
Bosh had just returned from and abdominal tear/strain and only was able to contributed 7 points in limited minutes and d-wade was the only other double digit scorer with 17 points from 6/17 shooting. Lebron completely took the game over, put the heat on his back, squashed any comebacks and took the crowd out of it. Don't hate.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

That was arguable the best playoff performance post-2000 by any player. The pressure, the expectations from him that game. He surpassed them all. Some people are seriously downplaying how impressive that performance was.

[imdaman99]

It was a manufactured moment. He choked so many times before that, what did you expect? The pressure was self-inflected due to the many chokejobs. He did have a great game though, sure it was against a team they were so much better than, but still great :cheers:

[Angel Face]

mj 1993 ecsf bulls vs knicks game 7

42pts 15/29 fg 12/13ft 6rb 4ast 2stl 3blks... zero 3's attempted.

one of my fav games from mike, with the famous chase down block on mcdaniel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWsgkauZb-U

You mean 1992. The move that he did at 1:35 time was flawless.

[diamenz]

You mean 1992. The move that he did at 1:35 time was flawless.

corrected, thanks. his will to get to the basket was a sickness.

[Solefade]

It was a manufactured moment. He choked so many times before that, what did you expect? The pressure was self-inflected due to the many chokejobs. He did have a great game though, sure it was against a team they were so much better than, but still great :cheers:


yeah ok cus the pressure of a make or break legacy game is sooo artificial :rolleyes:

[tmacattack33]

I can't remember anything better specifically...from 1995 when I started watching onwards.

But of course that doesn't mean none were better.

I didn't really know what was going on until around 1997.

And Shaq's Finals were so good that many of his games blend together in my mind as one big group of amazing games. So maybe one of them...though they were never in a close series with the Sixers or Nets...so we'd have to pick from the Pacers series.

And I can admit to not watching (or playing close attention to) the Spurs-Nets Finals or Spurs-Pistons Finals.

Maybe a D.Wade 2006 Finals game would be better. I'd have to go back and watch em again to find the best one.

Or maybe Lebron's own Game 5 against the Pistons in 2007 with 25 straight clutch points.

Or maybe Dirk's game 2 or 3 vs OKC in the 2011 WCF, where he couldn't miss... from the field or the foul line. Though that was not as big of a game.

[sdot_thadon]

Boston had been world champs 4 years prior.. and had been beaten by the HEAT in 5 games the year before.. :rolleyes:

that doesn't make any sense, the ONLY REASON that there was so much pressure on this game is because people were thinking "how the fck is Lebron about to get eliminated 2 years in a row with the best team in the league around him :facepalm "

that's why there was pressure, not because Lebron was facing some incredible opponent that nobody thought he could beat..but because Lebron was losing to opponents that he had no right to be losing to with the team he had around him..
Boston was a championship team with the core still intact. Albeit four years previous but that's irrelevant, They had the experience. Besides beating them previous year automatically insures you beat them every time? Why even play games then?

I believe some of you here think goat=best, that's not the case though. I feel Mj has had BETTER performances, but I don't feel he's had a GREATER one. You can name any Mj performance and I'm sure the circumstances and pressure don't stack up.

[Byobob]

To those who were saying that Miami put themselves into that position (2012 ECF G6) It seems that a lot of people here forgot that Bosh didn't play for the first five games and barely showed up in g6.

KG was abusing Miami's frontline everytime they fronted him. Which was neutralized a bit when Bosh came back.

[sdot_thadon]

To those who were saying that Miami put themselves into that position (2012 ECF G6) It seems that a lot of people here forgot that Bosh didn't play for the first five games and barely showed up in g6.

KG was abusing Miami's frontline everytime they fronted him. Which was neutralized a bit when Bosh came back.
Exactly. And I'm not sure why it's even a talking point of how they got in the position, it's a fckin playoff series sht happens. The discussion is about how he responded.

[Random_Guy]

strictly performance, there are probably better ones.
But if we are talking about context, that was perhaps the most pressure put on on superstar ever. Had he lost that game, his legacay would have been destroyed and he would be the laughing stock of not just the nba but probably modern sports in general. not really a lebron fan, but the way he stepped up and shook of the chokers label was exceptionally impressive.

[Da_Realist]

No air conditioning, 97 degrees, 34 points, 15-20 fgs, 17 rebounds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHsmmGo-yFc

1984 NBA Finals Game 5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtics%E2%80%93Lakers_rivalry#1984_NBA_Finals)
In Game 5, the Celtics took a 3

[LAZERUSS]

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]No air conditioning, 97 degrees, 34 points, 15-20 fgs, 17 rebounds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHsmmGo-yFc

1984 NBA Finals Game 5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtics%E2%80%93Lakers_rivalry#1984_NBA_Finals)
In Game 5, the Celtics took a 3

[Da_Realist]

I believe some of you here think goat=best, that's not the case though. I feel Mj has had BETTER performances, but I don't feel he's had a GREATER one. You can name any Mj performance and I'm sure the circumstances and pressure don't stack up.

Michael Jordan

1989 First Round Game 5 at Cleveland (only four home losses all year), Elimination Game

44 pts, 9 rebs, 6 asts, 17 points in the 4th quarter and the series winning shot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJeO2sVZZZg

[tmacattack33]

No air conditioning, 97 degrees, 34 points, 15-20 fgs, 17 rebounds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHsmmGo-yFc

1984 NBA Finals Game 5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtics%E2%80%93Lakers_rivalry#1984_NBA_Finals)
In Game 5, the Celtics took a 3–2 series lead as Larry Bird scored 34 points. The game was known as the "Heat Game", as it was played under 97-degree Fahrenheit heat, and without any air conditioning at the infamous Boston Garden.

That's awesome, but i don't understand how a variable like that makes any difference...because everyone was playing in that same heat.

It's not like everyone else had some type of special cooling suit on while Bird was the only one without it.

Still though, yes, getting 34 points on such great efficiency and getting 17 rebounds in the Finals is amazing...and scoring wasn't even Bird's best attribute on offense.

[sdot_thadon]

So the Bird and Mj games mentioned, again fall under games that may or may not have been better. My question is how were they greater? Was Birds legacy on the line at that point? He'd already won titles I'm sure. Same for Mj, although he'd not won yet he didn't win that year either. Did his legacy go down the tubes? I mean it's only discussed on a daily basis how great his legacy is. I fail to see where either of these were under greater pressure.....

**edit: I'd like to add that I'm in no way diminishing any performance mentioned here, as they are all awesome. Just don't see any of these as being an in the darkest hour type of deal.

[Da_Realist]

So the Bird and Mj games mentioned, again fall under games that may or may not have been better. My question is how were they greater? Was Birds legacy on the line at that point? He'd already won titles I'm sure. Same for Mj, although he'd not won yet he didn't win that year either. Did his legacy go down the tubes? I mean it's only discussed on a daily basis how great his legacy is. I fail to see where either of these were under greater pressure.....

**edit: I'd like to add that I'm in no way diminishing any performance mentioned here, as they are all awesome. Just don't see any of these as being an in the darkest hour type of deal.

First of all, be honest...why was Lebron's legacy on the line in the first place?

Ok...to answer your question as to why they are greater, in my opinion...

Bird's performance was against a better team, playing in 97 degree heat in a must win for the Celtics. He shot 15-20 when everyone else around him were gassed and rushing to breath in oxygen on the sidelines. 15-20, 34 pts and 17 rebs is a man's game under any circumstances. When the game is played under a constant heat wave, it becomes epic.

MJ's performance was in a game where BOTH teams were fighting for their playoff lives. Against a team that had lost to Chicago in five the year before, worked hard to earn homecourt advantage this year and were undefeated against Chicago in the regular season. The game was nip and tuck all game long as opposed to Lebron's performance coming in a game where the Heat were up seven at the end of the 1Q, ten by halftime, ten at the end of the 3Q and won by 16 points. It was a front-running game. Chi - Cle was nip and tuck all game long, MJ scored 17 points in the 4th (saving his best for when the team needed it the most), hit what everyone thought was a game winner with 6 secs left only to be punched in the gut by a Cleveland layup with 3 secs left. Everyone in the building and watching on tv knew who was going to get the ball to try to win the game. MJ gets the ball and hits a hanging double pump shot fading to his left to snatch the series out of Cleveland with no time remaining on the clock.

That >> beats Lebron saving his "legacy" by beating a team that looked like they conceded the game by the end of the 3rd Q.

[Da_Realist]

Bird
1987 ECF Game 7 vs Detroit (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198705300BOS.html)
37, 9 and 9 with some big shots near the end to ice the game.

Olajuwon
1995 First Rd Game 5 vs Utah (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199505070UTA.html)
33, 10 and 4 with some big shots near the end to ice the game as well.

[sdot_thadon]

First of all, be honest...why was Lebron's legacy on the line in the first place?

Ok...to answer your question as to why they are greater, in my opinion...

Bird's performance was against a better team, playing in 97 degree heat in a must win for the Celtics. He shot 15-20 when everyone else around him were gassed and rushing to breath in oxygen on the sidelines. 15-20, 34 pts and 17 rebs is a man's game under any circumstances. When the game is played under a constant heat wave, it becomes epic.

MJ's performance was in a game where BOTH teams were fighting for their playoff lives. Against a team that had lost to Chicago in five the year before, worked hard to earn homecourt advantage this year and were undefeated against Chicago in the regular season. The game was nip and tuck all game long as opposed to Lebron's performance coming in a game where the Heat were up seven at the end of the 1Q, ten by halftime, ten at the end of the 3Q and won by 16 points. It was a front-running game. Chi - Cle was nip and tuck all game long, MJ scored 17 points in the 4th (saving his best for when the team needed it the most), hit what everyone thought was a game winner with 6 secs left only to be punched in the gut by a Cleveland layup with 3 secs left. Everyone in the building and watching on tv knew who was going to get the ball to try to win the game. MJ gets the ball and hits a hanging double pump shot fading to his left to snatch the series out of Cleveland with no time remaining on the clock.

That >> beats Lebron saving his "legacy" by beating a team that looked like they conceded the game by the end of the 3rd Q.
Ok, not sure if you understood my post. I agree those were tremendous games, but who had more to lose than Lebron did at that point? What was Bird losing? A finals game? They'd be down 3-2 THE NEXT GAME lol. It wasn't an elimination game for one, second Bird was already a proven winner. Mj in 1989 was 25 years old, he hadn't won a title yet but I doubt anyone was expecting him to win at that point of his career. The elimination game winner is big no doubt, but if he loses there wouldn't have been much fallout. I mean he lost that year anyway......

[veilside23]

KG game 7 against the kings

32 pts 21 rebs 2 assists 4 steals 5 blocks.. worthy of the discussion

[Da_Realist]

Ok, not sure if you understood my post.

I understood. It just doesn't mean much.


I agree those were tremendous games, but who had more to lose than Lebron did at that point? What was Bird losing? A finals game?

Yes. That's another reason Bird's was better.


Mj in 1989 was 25 years old, he hadn't won a title yet but I doubt anyone was expecting him to win at that point of his career. The elimination game winner is big no doubt, but if he loses there wouldn't have been much fallout. I mean he lost that year anyway......

It doesn't matter that he didn't win the title. Nobody knew that in the moment. What happened two rounds later doesn't take away from how epic that one game was.

We're talking game for game. Which game is more epic? I say 89 Chi Cle G5, 84 LAL Bos Game 5, 87 Det Bos G7 and a few others were all better than 12 MIA Bos G6 because of the intensity of the whole game, the will of their opponents and the clutch play down the stretch. In my opinion, that trumps Lebron proving he wouldn't choke in a relatively easy 16 point win.

[Rose'sACL]

First of all, be honest...why was Lebron's legacy on the line in the first place?

Ok...to answer your question as to why they are greater, in my opinion...

Bird's performance was against a better team, playing in 97 degree heat in a must win for the Celtics. He shot 15-20 when everyone else around him were gassed and rushing to breath in oxygen on the sidelines. 15-20, 34 pts and 17 rebs is a man's game under any circumstances. When the game is played under a constant heat wave, it becomes epic.

MJ's performance was in a game where BOTH teams were fighting for their playoff lives. Against a team that had lost to Chicago in five the year before, worked hard to earn homecourt advantage this year and were undefeated against Chicago in the regular season. The game was nip and tuck all game long as opposed to Lebron's performance coming in a game where the Heat were up seven at the end of the 1Q, ten by halftime, ten at the end of the 3Q and won by 16 points. It was a front-running game. Chi - Cle was nip and tuck all game long, MJ scored 17 points in the 4th (saving his best for when the team needed it the most), hit what everyone thought was a game winner with 6 secs left only to be punched in the gut by a Cleveland layup with 3 secs left. Everyone in the building and watching on tv knew who was going to get the ball to try to win the game. MJ gets the ball and hits a hanging double pump shot fading to his left to snatch the series out of Cleveland with no time remaining on the clock.

That >> beats Lebron saving his "legacy" by beating a team that looked like they conceded the game by the end of the 3rd Q.
people blame lebron for choking so why not praise him for coming up huge under the most pressure any nba player has ever had. boston conceded that game because lebron knocked them out. if you watch the game, you would notice that as boston started to feel like they had no chance, lebron started going easy otherwise he would have scored 55+ easy. go watch the whole game. that last 3 that lebron hit basically was the knock out punch when Doc knew that he just couldn't win that game. Knowing celtics though, Spo still had him in the game to make sure that celtics don't come back.

[KirbyPls]

Bird
1987 ECF Game 7 vs Detroit (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198705300BOS.html)
37, 9 and 9 with some big shots near the end to ice the game.

Olajuwon
1995 First Rd Game 5 vs Utah (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199505070UTA.html)
33, 10 and 4 with some big shots near the end to ice the game as well.

ISH, where a 33, 10, 4 in the first round >>> 45-15-5 (76% FG) on the road in the ECF. No need to be upset MJ stans, your boy is GOAT and Lebron won't get there.

[Rose'sACL]

I understood. It just doesn't mean much.



Yes. That's another reason Bird's was better.



It doesn't matter that he didn't win the title. Nobody knew that in the moment. What happened two rounds later doesn't take away from how epic that one game was.

We're talking game for game. Which game is more epic? I say 89 Chi Cle G5, 85 LAL Bos Game 5, 87 Det Bos G7 and a few others were all better than 12 MIA Bos because of the intensity of the whole game, the will of their opponents and the clutch play down the stretch. In my opinion, that trumps Lebron proving he wouldn't choke in a relatively easy 16 point win.
stop using "clutch" as a plus point if you think that pressure on lebron was his fault and should not count as a big factor because you only need to be clutch when you didn't outplay the other team hard in first 40 mins. lebron basically won that game 6 in 3 quarters for his team alone.

[ArbitraryWater]

I understood. It just doesn't mean much.



Yes. That's another reason Bird's was better.



It doesn't matter that he didn't win the title. Nobody knew that in the moment. What happened two rounds later doesn't take away from how epic that one game was.

We're talking game for game. Which game is more epic? I say 89 Chi Cle G5, 84 LAL Bos Game 5, 87 Det Bos G7 and a few others were all better than 12 MIA Bos G6 because of the intensity of the whole game, the will of their opponents and the clutch play down the stretch. In my opinion, that trumps Lebron proving he wouldn't choke in a relatively easy 16 point win.

wow thats a pretty unusual bad post, sir...

:facepalm

what made it relatively easy?

Wade going 6-17 35%?

Oops, nobody else scored in double digits... whoah loaded as fcuk

Must have been the star Chris Bosh with his 7 Points?

[Da_Realist]

people blame lebron for choking so why not praise him for coming up huge under the most pressure any nba player has ever had. boston conceded that game because lebron knocked them out. if you watch the game, you would notice that as boston started to feel like they had no chance, lebron started going easy otherwise he would have scored 55+ easy. go watch the whole game. that last 3 that lebron hit basically was the knock out punch when Doc knew that he just couldn't win that game. Knowing celtics though, Spo still had him in the game to make sure that celtics don't come back.

I don't know why you think I don't appreciate that kind of effort. That kind of thing has been done many times by many other people. That's why I didn't list MJ's 91 Finals performance in Game 2 vs LAL. If Chi loses that game, they go down 0-2 and lose the series easily. MJ with a 33, 7 and 13 statline shooting 83% is epic. But the game was a blowout so the intensity wasn't there throughout. That's what separates the great games from truly unforgettable ones.

[KirbyPls]

wow thats a pretty unusual bad post, sir...

:facepalm

what made it relatively easy?

Wade going 6-17 35%?

Oops, nobody else scored in double digits... whoah loaded as fcuk

Must have been the star Chris Bosh with his 7 Points?

Yep, meant nothing. Hakeem's 33,10,4 >>>> obvi

[sportjames23]

First of all, be honest...why was Lebron's legacy on the line in the first place?

Ok...to answer your question as to why they are greater, in my opinion...

Bird's performance was against a better team, playing in 97 degree heat in a must win for the Celtics. He shot 15-20 when everyone else around him were gassed and rushing to breath in oxygen on the sidelines. 15-20, 34 pts and 17 rebs is a man's game under any circumstances. When the game is played under a constant heat wave, it becomes epic.

MJ's performance was in a game where BOTH teams were fighting for their playoff lives. Against a team that had lost to Chicago in five the year before, worked hard to earn homecourt advantage this year and were undefeated against Chicago in the regular season. The game was nip and tuck all game long as opposed to Lebron's performance coming in a game where the Heat were up seven at the end of the 1Q, ten by halftime, ten at the end of the 3Q and won by 16 points. It was a front-running game. Chi - Cle was nip and tuck all game long, MJ scored 17 points in the 4th (saving his best for when the team needed it the most), hit what everyone thought was a game winner with 6 secs left only to be punched in the gut by a Cleveland layup with 3 secs left. Everyone in the building and watching on tv knew who was going to get the ball to try to win the game. MJ gets the ball and hits a hanging double pump shot fading to his left to snatch the series out of Cleveland with no time remaining on the clock.

That >> beats Lebron saving his "legacy" by beating a team that looked like they conceded the game by the end of the 3rd Q.


Da_Realist just owned the fvck outta Lebron stans. :cheers:

[Da_Realist]

stop using "clutch" as a plus point if you think that pressure on lebron was his fault and should not count as a big factor because you only need to be clutch when you didn't outplay the other team hard in first 40 mins. lebron basically won that game 6 in 3 quarters for his team alone.

True. Not taking anything away from his effort. But it does mean more to me to see a guy raise his game when the game is on the line going down the stretch. That's an added bonus for me.

[Rose'sACL]

I don't know why you think I don't appreciate that kind of effort. That kind of thing has been done many times by many other people. That's why I didn't list MJ's 91 Finals performance in Game 2 vs LAL. If Chi loses that game, they go down 0-2 and lose the series easily. MJ with a 33, 7 and 13 statline shooting 83% is epic. But the game was a blowout so the intensity wasn't there throughout. That's what separates the great games from truly unforgettable ones.
how the fck is game 2 same as ECF elimitation game? You are saying that playing so well that you punch the team so hard that they give up in 3 quarters is better than keeping the team within touching distance till last minute.

[Rose'sACL]

True. Not taking anything away from his effort. But it does mean more to me to see a guy raise his game when the game is on the line going down the stretch. That's an added bonus for me.
then you are an idiot. i didn't want to say it in previous posts but you are one. according to you lakers who went 16-1 were not as good as last year's heat.

[Da_Realist]

then you are an idiot. i didn't want to say it in previous posts but you are one. according to you lakers who went 16-1 were not as good as last year's heat.

I have no idea what you're talking about. We're not comparing teams. We're comparing individual playoff performances.

Y'all dudes need to relax. I don't think Lebron's Game 6 vs Bos is the greatest most epic playoff performance I ever saw. And I gave you my personal reasons for that (opinion). You disagree. So what?

[Rose'sACL]

I have no idea what you're talking about. We're not comparing teams. We're comparing individual playoff performances.

Y'all dudes need to relax. I don't think Lebron's Game 6 vs Mia was the greatest most epic playoff performance I ever saw. And I gave you my personal reasons for that (opinion). You disagree. So what?
your opinion is wrong because the stats were worse in most of your games and then you use pressure of "clutch" moments as a plus point for jordan while completely ignoring that lebron was under much more pressure than jordan has ever been in.
So either give lebron the credit for playing under most pressure any player in the modern era has been in or just stop using being clutch as a plus point because the pressure of that game 6 was bigger than pressure of last couple of mins from game 7 of last season against spurs.

[Young X]

Jordan game 1 vs Portland: 35 pts/6 threes in 1 half + 11 dimes.

Jordan game 1 vs Lakers: 33/13/8 on 15/18 shooting + switch hand layup (No way do the Bulls win the title if they lose this game).

Jordan game 5 vs Cavs: 44/9/6 + series winning shot at the buzzer (if he misses they lose the series).

Flu game + game winner.

55 against PHO in the FINALS.

b2b 50 point games against Cavs.

etc.

All better.

[Rose'sACL]

Jordan game 1 vs Portland: 35 pts/6 threes in 1 half + 11 dimes.

Jordan game 1 vs Lakers: 33/13/8 on 15/18 shooting + switch hand layup (No way do the Bulls win the title if they lose this game).

Jordan game 5 vs Cavs: 44/9/6 + series winning shot at the buzzer (if he misses they lose the series).

Flu game + game winner.



54 against NYK in the ECF.

55 against PHO in the FINALS.

b2b 50 point games against Cavs.

etc.

All better.
those 2 are the only ones which are equal or better.

[Da_Realist]

your opinion is wrong because the stats were worse in most of your games and then you use pressure of "clutch" moments as a plus point for jordan while completely ignoring that lebron was under much more pressure than jordan has ever been in.
So either give lebron the credit for playing under most pressure any player in the modern era has been in or just stop using being clutch as a plus point because the pressure of that game 6 was bigger than pressure of last couple of mins from game 7 of last season against spurs.

1) I'm not a stat-head. Stats don't tell the whole story.

2) There is no more pressure than when both teams are fighting for their playoff lives. Bos didn't feel the same pressure that Miami (and Lebron, in particular) felt in that game.

Take any casual, non-biased observer and have them watch Larry's Game 7 vs Detroit and Lebron's Game 6 vs Bos and I think most would say Larry's game has more weight. Larry's game carries more weight because it's a part of a larger story bigger than Larry. Boston and Detroit played an epic game with Larry driving the nail in the coffin. Lebron's Game 6 vs Boston doesn't have a larger narrative except for Lebron fighting off his demons. The game itself was a dud.

3) Clutch moments will always matter, especially for me.

[Rose'sACL]

1) I'm not a stat-head. Stats don't tell the whole story.

2) There is no more pressure than when both teams are fighting for their playoff lives. Bos didn't feel the same pressure that Miami (and Lebron, in particular) felt in that game.

Take any casual, non-biased observer and have them watch Larry's Game 7 vs Detroit and Lebron's Game 6 vs Bos and I think most would say Larry's game has more weight. Larry's game carries more weight because it's a part of a larger story bigger than Larry. Boston and Detroit played an epic game with Larry driving the nail in the coffin. Lebron's Game 6 vs Boston doesn't have a larger narrative except for Lebron fighting off his demons. The game itself was a dud.

3) Clutch moments will always matter, especially for me.
keep thinking that. pretty much the whole world agreed that lebron was under the most pressure any athlete has been in at least the nba if not all the US sports. pretty much all of it was his fault but that only increase the amount of pressure because it was his own fault. Game was only a dud because lebron made it so.
according to your logic, lebron was under more pressure in game 7 last year which any unbiased observer would tell you is just false. He could have played like he did against boston in game 6 and game would have been pretty much over unless rest of the heat had 30 turnovers.
Why can't jordan fans be happy that he is the GOAT according to most people. You have make him a god.

[Da_Realist]

Y'all dudes are so bitter with MJ = Goat talk. Let's keep the focus on the games in question. Whether he's the Goat or not adds absolutely nothing to this discussion.

As far as the topic... I see what you're saying. I still say,


Larry's game carries more weight because it's a part of a larger story bigger than Larry. Boston and Detroit played an epic game with Larry driving the nail in the coffin. Lebron's Game 6 vs Boston doesn't have a larger narrative except for Lebron fighting off his demons. The game itself was a dud.

Great performance by Lebron. Great for his legacy. I just don't think it's the same as staring down an opponent shot for shot in an elimination game, scoring 17 points in the 4th and hitting 2 clutch shots to win the series.

[Solefade]

there's really no argument when it comes to '12 ecf g6 was the most pressure loaded game ever for any superstar...and yes maybe lebron put himself in that situation and it is what it is but he took total control of that moment when everyone was expecting him to fail


sure..MJ had some way better games statistically but lebron totally decimated that choker label that was attached to him

[sdot_thadon]

So all these replies and still no one has managed to answer my question. I keep seeing these numbers thrown about which are good games but who was in a position with more to lose and under more pressure than Lebron had for that particular moment? I see you guys throwing game 5's and game 2's and sht like that around but none that fit the bill. The heat wave game is cool but in the scheme of things was only game 5 in a tied series. MJ's series winner against the Cav's was as close as it got I'd say, but he still lost in the postseason with no damage to his image/legacy.

Lebron had way more to lose than just a basketball game. They'd be eliminated from the playoffs, with this "stacked" team. Another blow to his public image and likely to his off court earning ability, as well as a fatal blow to his goal of being goat. Mj and bird didn't go through their careers with every performance scrutinized and measured up to alltime greats this same way we see Lebron deal with.

[Da_Realist]

We're looking at it from two different perspectives. I define pressure as in game, crowd on it's feet, high level of intensity from all players on the court, one mistake could cost you the series, down to the wire, clutch baskets needed on every possession by both teams type of thing. Real basketball pressure.

You're talking from a media-induced, mythical faux "legacy" defining perspective that's based solely on Lebron and has nothing to do with what actually happened in the game aside from what Lebron did. Media and fanboy pressure.

From a nail biter, edge of your seat, intensity so thick you could cut with a knife, truly legacy defining perspective, there are others better than Lebron's Game 6.

From a "If he screws up again he won't have a chance to be GOAT" fanboy perspective, then Lebron's Game 6 is up there.

[sdot_thadon]

We're looking at it from two different perspectives. I define pressure as in game, crowd on it's feet, high level of intensity from all players on the court, one mistake could cost you the series, down to the wire, clutch baskets needed on every possession by both teams type of thing. Real basketball pressure.

You're talking from a media-induced, mythical faux "legacy" defining perspective that's based solely on Lebron and has nothing to do with what actually happened in the game aside from what Lebron did. Media and fanboy pressure.

From a nail biter, edge of your seat, intensity so thick you could cut with a knife, truly legacy defining perspective, there are others better than Lebron's Game 6.

From a "If he screws up again he won't have a chance to be GOAT" fanboy perspective, then Lebron's Game 6 is up there.
So tell me what was being discussed all over when it came to Lebron, fan or not we all had to hear it. I understand what you're getting at and thise were great moments no doubt. Clutch moments. But just moments. I love clutch plays down the stretch as much as the next man but this was an entire game damn near. Took the life out of the crowd and the opponent. I watched most of Mj's career and he had tons of incredidble moments, way more than Lebron. The few Lebron has had though were things Mj himself hadn't done, and that doesn't diminish him one bit in my eyes.

[Da_Realist]

MJ's series winner against the Cav's was as close as it got I'd say, but he still lost in the postseason with no damage to his image/legacy.

I disagree with this. MJ's series winner was very important for the Bulls. That shot propelled Chicago to the ECF where they learned what it's like to play against championship ball. If they lost that game, they would have exited in the first round and their team maturity/growth would have been stunted. Who knows what kind of knee-jerk reactions might have happened had they taken a step backwards (they reached the ecsf the year before).

1989 built a foundation for the 1990 team which helped them become champions in 1991 and eventually the team of the decade.

[Frozen1]

Based on the circumnstances, that was the clutchest performance of all time.

I

[Solefade]

We're looking at it from two different perspectives. I define pressure as in game, crowd on it's feet, high level of intensity from all players on the court, one mistake could cost you the series, down to the wire, clutch baskets needed on every possession by both teams type of thing. Real basketball pressure.

You're talking from a media-induced, mythical faux "legacy" defining perspective that's based solely on Lebron and has nothing to do with what actually happened in the game aside from what Lebron did. Media and fanboy pressure.

From a nail biter, edge of your seat, intensity so thick you could cut with a knife, truly legacy defining perspective, there are others better than Lebron's Game 6.

From a "If he screws up again he won't have a chance to be GOAT" fanboy perspective, then Lebron's Game 6 is up there.


that media pressure also includes basketball pressure lol

[J Shuttlesworth]

So all these replies and still no one has managed to answer my question. I keep seeing these numbers thrown about which are good games but who was in a position with more to lose and under more pressure than Lebron had for that particular moment? I see you guys throwing game 5's and game 2's and sht like that around but none that fit the bill. The heat wave game is cool but in the scheme of things was only game 5 in a tied series. MJ's series winner against the Cav's was as close as it got I'd say, but he still lost in the postseason with no damage to his image/legacy.

Lebron had way more to lose than just a basketball game. They'd be eliminated from the playoffs, with this "stacked" team. Another blow to his public image and likely to his off court earning ability, as well as a fatal blow to his goal of being goat. Mj and bird didn't go through their careers with every performance scrutinized and measured up to alltime greats this same way we see Lebron deal with.
Part of it is the era too. LeBron is one of the only players that were all over ESPN even since high school basically guaranteed to be the next MJ. We also have Twitter, Forums, and other social media where he is constantly being judged 24/7 to the point where it's unavoidable. I mean ESPN was literally showing his 4th quarter stats all day during the 2011 finals. Because of social media, LeBron is the most highly scrutinized player in the most highly scrutinized era.