Bad Boys: 30 for 30 - April 17, 8:00PM (ESPN)

[Rake2204]

My guess is those already familiar with the story of the late-80's Detroit Pistons won't learn a ton of new things by watching this flick tonight, but I figure there's no doubt it'll be worth a watch regardless. As a Pistons fan, it's a can't-miss. If nothing else, it'll be nice to hear Adrian Dantley's take on everything. I'm guessing he is still a little nonplussed.

[mr.big35]

My guess is those already familiar with the story of the late-80's Detroit Pistons won't learn a ton of new things by watching this flick tonight, but I figure there's no doubt it'll be worth a watch regardless. As a Pistons fan, it's a can't-miss. If nothing else, it'll be nice to hear Adrian Dantley's take on everything. I'm guessing he is still a little nonplussed.

I already post it about this other day. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332089

[Rake2204]

I already post it about this other day. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332089Yes, as did I (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300040). But I felt a thread title with date and time was in order, as a heads up to those interested.

[mr.big35]

Yes, as did I (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300040). But I felt a thread title with date and time was in order, as a heads up to those interested.

is there any way moderators to combine this thread with mine

[Da_Realist]

There's a post doc special coming on after it. I forgot what it's called but Jalen Rose and Isiah Thomas will be guests along with another ex-Pistons player.

[Rake2204]

There's a post doc special coming on after it. I forgot what it's called but Jalen Rose and Isiah Thomas will be guests along with another ex-Pistons player.Yessir, I'll be trying to check that out as well.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Hated this team. Can't wait for the DOC ...

[1987_Lakers]

can someone record this and post it on youtube later tonight?

[JellyBean]

Watching it now. :applause:

[BlackVVaves]

Zeke tried to sabotage his draft stock to avoid Detroit :lol

[TheWINdyCity]

hmm never knew isiah wanted to be a bull that bad

[truhooper]

Mahorn :rockon: :roll:

[BlackVVaves]

The Microwave :bowdown:

[dazzer87]

Damn these guys dont age......

[JellyBean]

Zeke was a beast!!

[TheReal Kendall]

I don't get the backlash from that comment.

[Calabis]

Damn these guys dont age......

Black don't crack:lol

[truhooper]

Zeke>>> :bowdown:

[SCdac]

Great watch. Certainly nostalgic

[MrC1991]

This DOC has been awesome. God I remember growing up hating these guys! Especially Laimbeer. lmao so much hatred.

[JellyBean]

This DOC has been awesome. God I remember growing up hating these guys! Especially Laimbeer. lmao so much hatred.

Yeah a lot of people hated Lamby. But he was smart. He knew who to mess with. But it is funny watching this clip. Not too many fought Mahorn...but they went after Lamby.

[MrC1991]

Yeah a lot of people hated Lamby. But he was smart. He knew who to mess with. But it is funny watching this clip. Not too many fought Mahorn...but they went after Lamby.

:lol If I had to choose I'd easily fight basketball commando over Mahorn.

[JellyBean]

What is odd about the Bad Boy image is, the Celtics were bullying folks in the early 80s...nobody said anything. The minute the Pistons returned that physical play, it became "Oh the Pistons are bad for the league" blah blah...blah.

[dazzer87]

Wow Det was robbed on that last foul in game 6......:facepalm

[JellyBean]

LOL@ James Worthy comment about Rodman touching his butt. Rodman was a mind game master. :applause:

[JellyBean]

I can't wait for the ratings of this episode come out, if they release them.

[MrC1991]

Can you imagine Rodman grabbing your ass for a whole game? Yeah I'd loose my mind too ready to kill that dude. lol

[JellyBean]

Mahorn getting teary eye'd about being taken in the expansion draft....I don't blame him.

[JellyBean]

Can you imagine Rodman grabbing your ass for a whole game? Yeah I'd loose my mind too ready to kill that dude. lol

Heck yeah. Basketball would be the last thing on my mind during the game. I would want to knock that sucker out. LOL

[Derka]

Rodman has been shockingly lucid through this whole thing so far.

[Heavincent]

I don't get the backlash from that comment.

Are you talking about Rodman and Isaiah's comments about Bird? That was a really asinine thing to say. Bird wasn't just another guy. He was THE best player in the game.

[Derka]

Wow, Vinny the Microwave...

I'm getting old.

[JellyBean]

The Microwave....Vinnie Johnson. The dude was special for the Sonics and magical for the Pistons.

[truhooper]

https://twitter.com/KingJames/statuses/456969838628728833

[Rake2204]

Wow, Vinny the Microwave...

I'm getting old.Surprised he appears to have not taken part in this program... unless he appeared earlier.


Mahorn getting teary eye'd about being taken in the expansion draft....I don't blame him.Not only that, but McCloskey caught word on the day of the parade. Rough, rough timing.


Rodman has been shockingly lucid through this whole thing so far.If there's one topic that seems to ground Dennis, it's the Pistons and Chuck Daly.

[TheReal Kendall]

Are you talking about Rodman and Isaiah's comments about Bird? That was a really asinine thing to say. Bird wasn't just another guy. He was THE best player in the game.

Yea but from what I heard he didn't say that he was just another guy.

He was saying that if he was black he would just be another black guy that can hoop.

[Straight_Ballin]

Also watch 30:30 Once Brothers

Divac vs Petrovic

[JellyBean]

:applause: The Best 30 for 30 ever!!!!

[KempSonics]

Loved it

[zoom17]

Great documentary:applause:

[JellyBean]

Are you talking about Rodman and Isaiah's comments about Bird? That was a really asinine thing to say. Bird wasn't just another guy. He was THE best player in the game.

It wasn't asinine to say that. Everybody was saying that about Bird back in the day. Rodman and Zeke just said what everybody else was afraid to say.

[Rake2204]

Very enjoyable doc. And Kid Rock actually did a great job narrating. Couldn't even notice it was him.

[Rake2204]

Also, something that was kind of overlooked was Isiah's fight against Bill Cartwright in '89. That came on April 7, just a few week before the playoffs. Zeke actually broke his hand on one of those punches and Detroit's season flashed before their eyes...

He missed two games... due to suspension. That's it. Played with a protective glove on his hand until it healed partway through the postseason.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomais01/gamelog/1989/

http://articles.philly.com/1989-05-01/sports/26114276_1_million-lottery-ticket-chicago-s-bill-cartwright-hard-work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSrbh6Dsqh4

[mr.big35]

where can i watch this

[BlackVVaves]

That was epic :bowdown:

[Uncle Drew]

where can i watch this
http://cloudyvideos.com/s04hw5766xwo
http://cloudyvideos.com/no1s5kq1z9yx

[mr.big35]

http://cloudyvideos.com/s04hw5766xwo
http://cloudyvideos.com/no1s5kq1z9yx
thanks :cheers:

[L.Kizzle]

Dantley vs. Isiah and Aguirre, they still beefing after all these years. :eek:

[BlackVVaves]

It wasn't asinine to say that. Everybody was saying that about Bird back in the day. Rodman and Zeke just said what everybody else was afraid to say.

How many other players put up 30 9 8 on 50-40-90?

[TheReal Kendall]

How many other players put up 30 9 8 on 50-40-90?

Larry was great but you're missing the point of that whole comment Rodman made.

[Marchesk]

Larry was great but you're missing the point of that whole comment Rodman made.

The comment's dumb and typical of the Pistons. If Bird were black, he wouldn't be just another black guy, he'd be the best guy. What, are we going to pretend Magic or Michael didn't get the same kind of celebrity treatment Bird got? Gimme a break.

[L.Kizzle]

The comment's dumb and typical of the Pistons. If Bird were black, he wouldn't be just another black guy, he'd be the best guy. What, are we going to pretend Magic or Michael didn't get the same kind of celebrity treatment Bird got? Gimme a break.
Magic and Jordan were different than Bird as they wanted the spotlight. Magic had to put that huge grin on every night, Jordan was Mr. Excitement. Bird just played hard every night. He didn't want the fame. They had to do extra to be loved. Bird didn't have to do any of that.

Bird would have been Alex English if he were black, meaning just another good brother they were talking about. Of course Bird was much better than Alex, but you get my drift.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Magic and Jordan were different than Bird as they wanted the spotlight. Magic had to put that huge grin on every night, Jordan was Mr. Excitement. Bird just played hard every night. He didn't want the fame. They had to do extra to be loved. Bird didn't have to do any of that.

Bird would have been Alex English if he were black, meaning just another good brother they were talking about. Of course Bird was much better than Alex, but you get my drift.

Jordan was "mr exciting" isn't an answer.. How about Kareem and Duncan? Are they just 'Alex English' players?

Isiah and Rodman were wrong.. They were clearly bitter about losing to the Celtics again and again..

[Da_Realist]

Loved every minute of it

[MrC1991]

ESPN knows how to make documentaries...loved all of them ive seen so far. This one may be my personal favorite since it hits so close to home.

[BlackVVaves]

Larry was great but you're missing the point of that whole comment Rodman made.

So tell me the point then? What "other black guy" was putting up the numbers Bird did from 84-88?

I can understand if Larry was producing numbers along the lines of typical all star, black athletes. But, he wasn't. NOBODY WAS, BLACK YELLOW ORANGE WHATEVER.

I think it's you that's missing the point.

[BlackVVaves]

Jordan was "mr exciting" isn't an answer.. How about Kareem and Duncan? Are they just 'Alex English' players?

Isiah and Rodman were wrong.. They were clearly bitter about losing to the Celtics again and again..
THIS.

Let's stop this nonsense of trying to validate the ignorance that Rodman spewed and Zeke affirmed please.

Because saying Larry would just be another player if he was black is implying that Kareem, Magic, and Thomas were "just another black guy" performing. Which they clearly were not. They were all time greats.

Only simple minded racist mother****ers thought like that. And even though I'm not naive enough to think those kind of bigots didn't (or don't) exist back then in the basketball community, by 1988 it certainly wasn't the prevailing opinion of the masses.

So cut the shit. What they said was wrong. Dead wrong. Whether it was a poor choice of words or just emotionally spurred idiocy, it was wrong.

[duskovujosevic]

post youtube links, when you find it. this is must watch

[blacknapalm]

good stuff. not the greatest of the series but still really solid. could have avoided stock footage.

still, great interviews...worthy talking about rodman grabbing ass was hilarious. laimbeer reiterating that most of the time it was psychological instead of physical.

[Straight_Ballin]

Wallce's, prince, billups, hamilton was still the more impressive pistons team.

Winning it all without a superstar.

[nycelt84]

Jordan was "mr exciting" isn't an answer.. How about Kareem and Duncan? Are they just 'Alex English' players?

Isiah and Rodman were wrong.. They were clearly bitter about losing to the Celtics again and again..

Rodman was a rookie. He wasnt bitter, just being an idiot.

[Kovach]

Magic and Jordan were different than Bird as they wanted the spotlight. Magic had to put that huge grin on every night, Jordan was Mr. Excitement. Bird just played hard every night. He didn't want the fame. They had to do extra to be loved. Bird didn't have to do any of that.

Bird also had a gimmick.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Loved the part where Aguire goes at Dantley.

[Rake2204]

I understand there was a time crunch with the doc so not everything made the cut. But I was surprised this didn't at least get a mention - Rick Mahorn was picked up by the Wolves in the expansion draft but never played a game for them; he was dealt to the 76ers for draft picks just prior to the season.

Then, when the Sixers came to town looking to clinch the Atlantic Division in the third to last game of the season, here's how his former teammates welcomed him back. You'll enjoy it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-5ablJYVcg

[Da_Realist]

-- All these years later I was still on the fence about the Dantley trade. I now understand the dynamics behind it a little better. It's too bad AD still doesn't get it.

-- Loved the honesty. Worthy saying, "Bad boys? Nah... We weren't worried about them." Loved that 'We won 4 titles and beat Boston so we're not worried about Detroit' swagger. Jordan admitting, "We probably don't win 6 championships without going through Detroit". Pippen saying, "Maybe the pressure got to me" in reference to his migraine was a huge admission. All added weight to the documentary.

-- Magic and Bird should have consented to be interviewed. Props especially to MJ. Contributing to the doc was a subtle way of showing appreciation.

-- The way Isiah handled Joe's father's death showed real maturity and leadership

[juju151111]

I understand there was a time crunch with the doc so not everything made the cut. But I was surprised this didn't at least get a mention - Rick Mahorn was picked up by the Wolves in the expansion draft but never played a game for them; he was dealt to the 76ers for draft picks just prior to the season.

Then, when the Sixers came to town looking to clinch the Atlantic Division in the third to last game of the season, here's how his former teammates welcomed him back. You'll enjoy it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-5ablJYVcg
Players back then didn't give a eff. You on the other team and you catching a elbow or fist weather your a friend off the court or not. Magic layed out Isiah in the finals.

[mr.big35]

after the phantom foul in 88 they got their revenge in 1989.

[treadster]

That was a good watch. :applause:

i never knew much about the bad boys pistons, but i've always admired them for their hard-nosed, physical basketball and how they rise as a bad boys and fall as a bad boys.

[JohnnySic]

They were the best team by '88; should have 3-peated before Bulls did,

[jayfan]

As heartbreaking as the loss to LA was in the '88 Finals, the loss to Boston in the '87 ECF was every bit as heartbreaking, if not more.

[JohnnySic]

As heartbreaking as the loss to LA was in the '88 Finals, the loss to Boston in the '87 ECF was every bit as heartbreaking, if not more.
I remember that series and to this day i dont know how the Celtics won it. They were a walking wounded group and had no bench. The Pistons were young, hungry, and deep. Bird was at the absolute top of his game though. I think I answered my own question.

[smoovegittar]

I hope some of the kids who believe our elder statesmen sucked watched that. I enjoyed it; great memories as I have no love for Celtics, Chicago or Detroit. Makes today's floppers look like a bunch of *******

[ArbitraryWater]

Where can I watch it?

[jayfan]

I remember that series and to this day i dont know how the Celtics won it. They were a walking wounded group and had no bench. The Pistons were young, hungry, and deep. Bird was at the absolute top of his game though. I think I answered my own question.

Yep. There was the famous (or infamous) Bird steal & pass to DJ at the end of game 5, which was right after the fantastic Rodman block of Bird. But for that steal, the Pistons probably win in 6.

Then in game 7, Vinnie Johnson and Adrian Dantley collided head-on at the end of the 3rd quarter chasing a ball. Neither played in the 4th quarter. Dantley was actually taken to the hospital.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Didn't catch the whole thing but some really good stuff.. I'll try to watch it entirely today.

[SHAQisGOAT]

It wasn't asinine to say that. Everybody was saying that about Bird back in the day. Rodman and Zeke just said what everybody else was afraid to say.

:facepalm Stop it please :facepalm
If anything, it was the complete opposite of what you've said but I guess you know it all or got some proof, huh? :rolleyes: If anything, also, Bird's fame didn't grow as big as some other dudes' because he was more of a blue collar player (although with plenty of flash), never much outspoken til this day, and a white player who looked like a hick, or was one, in a black-men's sport.. When he was healthy, he was and was considered the best in the game for the majority of that time-span, people who know their shit will tell you that, people alive back then will tell you that. He was the whole package, he had tremendous impact, he was killing the game playing at an unreal level few have ever reached, and everyone was in awe of him, even other players.. Shit, just go watch some recent documentaries, some footage from back in the day, some articles too, and you'll see Magic, MJ, Doc, Worthy, Woolridge, Drexler, even Isiah, so on, praising the hell out of Bird and his game.
Bird was like top3 in MVP voting every year, winning 3 straight ones, when he was healthy, making all-nba 1st every year, turning the franchise around, averaging crazy numbers with unreal impact, playing crazy basketball, getting 3 titles in a stacked era.. You didn't see the same for West, Mullin, Maravich, Dirk, Nash.. you name it.

Rodman and Zeke just had their asses handed out to them in the 1987 ECF, before those statements.. With the Celtics falling apart, Bird averaged 27/10/8/1/1 on .572 TS%, with some incredible clutch plays, just destroying everyone and getting the C's over the Bad Boys, and if he didn't get injured he would've most likely be doing the same for years to follow.. Rodman was always a fool for that one and he was bitter, plus Bird was killing him on the court, so he let out that completely dumb comment, Isiah was interviewed about it and was just mentally broken down, so even jokingly went along with Rodman's comments but the media took it seriously and ripped him for that along with Rodman..

Edit: article about the last stuff I've said.. http://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/05/sports/thomas-explains-comments-on-bird.html
Like I've said, Isiah got screwed because of Rodman on that one.. He was an asshole lots of times but that time it wasn't on him.

[Rake2204]

...Laimbeer reiterating that most of the time it was psychological instead of physical.That's something that sometimes gets overlooked. It was never about a need to be a tough guy or alpha male. If anything, it was often about the other guy's need to be an alpha male. It was about doing what was necessary to lead an opponent down a realm for which they should not be heading, where the basketball competition became secondary to settling a score or asserting one's masculinity.

I'm half proud of this, half not, but I modeled a lot of my high school basketball game around Bill Laimbeer and Dennis Rodman's psychological warfare. There's just too many people out there ready and willing to make it more about the game. It was like shooting fish in a barrel at times. I didn't adopt Laimbeer's flagrant fouling ways, but more the general psychological approach, alongside all the clutching, jersey grabbing, pushing-then-giving, charge taking, and most ashamedly, some tripping.

[JellyBean]

How many other players put up 30 9 8 on 50-40-90?

Oh my goodness. See the list below. The whole point of the "Larry Bird would have been just another black guy in the NBA" drama was from how the media hyped Bird and work ethic. The media act like, the brothers just woke up one day and was blessed with the talent to shoot, pass, defend, and rebound. But when Bird came on the scene, it was like he was "GOD" and that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Nobody said that Bird wasn't great, over time. It was during that early 1980-1984 range, where folks were like "Dang. Bird is decent but hold up a second. What about Dave Cowens? Or didn't the Iceman just torch Bird and the C's for 30-40 points? How about some love for Cedric Maxwell" It was just how the media hyped Bird and that just got under a lot of people's skin.


Tiny Archibald
Elvin Hayes
Alex English
Kiki Vandeweghe
Dan Issel
Otis Birdsong
Adrian Dantley
David Thompson
Moses Malone
Bernard King
Cedric Maxwell
Dr. J
Kevin McHale
Pistol Pete

[PizzamanIRL]

Where can I watch it?

In the past.

[Rake2204]

Fun fact: Adrian Dantley did not watch the 30 for 30 last night. Also, if you can believe it, he still doesn't like Isiah Thomas.


Adrian Dantley didn’t watch Thursday night’s “Bad Boys” 30 for 30 documentary on ESPN.

In fact, he didn’t even want to be a part of it.

“But the NBA kept begging me to be on there, so I did the interview,” Dantley told Matt Dery on Detroit Sports 105.1 FM today. “But I did not watch the 30 for 30 and I will not watch it. My wife tried to get me to watch it, but I didn’t watch it.”
In the “Bad Boys” documentary, Jack McCloskey, the Pistons’ general manager at the time, denied that Thomas had a say in moving Dantley to Dallas. Dantley argues he did.

“Of course (McCloskey’s) going to say what he had to say,” Dantley told Dery, then later said: “If I was kissing Isiah’s ass, I would have never got traded.”
Later in the radio interview, Dery jokingly asked Dantley if he thought Thomas should be the next Pistons president and general manager after former “Bad Boys” teammate Joe Dumars stepped down as president of basketball operations earlier this week.

“Con man,” he replied. “He has a way of tricking people, and he tricked a lot of people.”

http://www.freep.com/article/20140418/SPORTS03/304180099/detroit-pistons-adrian-dantley-isiah-thomas

[BlackVVaves]

[QUOTE=Rake2204][QUOTE]Later in the radio interview, Dery jokingly asked Dantley if he thought Thomas should be the next Pistons president and general manager after former

[Chuckbrook]

Very enjoyable doc. And Kid Rock actually did a great job narrating. Couldn't even notice it was him.
Me either. I didn't even know it was Kid Rock. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Now I want to watch it again. :facepalm

-Brook

[steve]

-- The way Isiah handled Joe's father's death showed real maturity and leadership

This part absolutely killed me. When they showed the clip of Isiah explaining to the media why Dumars wan't going to be at the press conference, then cut to Isiah in present day explaining the situation, and then cutting to Dumars making that high arching floater and jogging back down the court shrugging to Isiah. Just tears and you know Dumars doing that just had to have been eating Isiah inside at that moment.

I don't think Bird would've done this by way even if he didn't feel strongly about the Pistons nor would he have really added anything. It probably would've been along the lines of "they were a great team, we had a tough time playing them."

Now Magic on the other hand, that would've been ****ing fascinating to listen to him. I understand the animosity that Bird and Jordan have for the Pistons. The two of them had to go to war against those teams and are the type of competitors that resent having to play that way. But Magic, most of his bullshit is really petty. A lot of people will mention how their friendship deteriorated because of something Isiah said when Magic got AIDS, but their friendship was over the moment Isiah made it to the Finals and presented a threat to Magic being the standard bearer at the time (all summed up in the way Magic threw that vicious elbow at Isiah head in the '88 series). Still, he would've smiled his way through and talked about greatness offering one cliche after the next and it would've been pure BS.


If anything, it was the complete opposite of what you've said but I guess you know it all or got some proof, huh? If anything, also, Bird's fame didn't grow as big as some other dudes' because he was more of a blue collar player (although with plenty of flash), never much outspoken til this day, and a white player who looked like a hick, or was one, in a black-men's sport.. When he was healthy, he was and was considered the best in the game for the majority of that time-span, people who know their shit will tell you that, people alive back then will tell you that. He was the whole package, he had tremendous impact, he was killing the game playing at an unreal level few have ever reached, and everyone was in awe of him, even other players.. Shit, just go watch some recent documentaries, some footage from back in the day, some articles too, and you'll see Magic, MJ, Doc, Worthy, Woolridge, Drexler, even Isiah, so on, praising the hell out of Bird and his game.
Bird was like top3 in MVP voting every year, winning 3 straight ones, when he was healthy, making all-nba 1st every year, turning the franchise around, averaging crazy numbers with unreal impact, playing crazy basketball, getting 3 titles in a stacked era.. You didn't see the same for West, Mullin, Maravich, Dirk, Nash.. you name it.

Rodman and Zeke just had their asses handed out to them in the 1987 ECF, before those statements.. With the Celtics falling apart, Bird averaged 27/10/8/1/1 on .572 TS%, with some incredible clutch plays, just destroying everyone and getting the C's over the Bad Boys, and if he didn't get injured he would've most likely be doing the same for years to follow.. Rodman was always a fool for that one and he was bitter, plus Bird was killing him on the court, so he let out that completely dumb comment, Isiah was interviewed about it and was just mentally broken down, so even jokingly went along with Rodman's comments but the media took it seriously and ripped him for that along with Rodman..

Edit: article about the last stuff I've said.. http://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/05/sp...s-on-bird.html
Like I've said, Isiah got screwed because of Rodman on that one.. He was an asshole lots of times but that time it wasn't on him.

Suggesting that everyone was thinking it was is relatively inaccurate but it was sentiment that was echoed in certain parts. Not necessarily other basketball players but there was definitely a certain segment that felt Bird was hoisted up because he was white (regardless of how BS that argument actually was).

Although I thought the more interesting point made about this incident (I think it was L Kizzle) is how Bird's "celebrity" if you will was more manufactured than that of Jordan and Magic. It was rightfully pointed out that the two of them really did seek out the fame but that was something that Bird didn't have to do and didn't even want but was promoted (and promoted hard) by the league despite his apathy for it. And there are two ways to look at that: 1. being that Bird really did want the fame and 2. Bird was being pushed down the public's throat anyway. A lot of people obviously liked Bird as a celebrity but at the same time, it's easy to see why a certain contingent would not be keen on this.

But I am glad you posted the link to the column because too often people think this is how Isiah really felt (or still feels today), rather than a general non-issue that the media ran with at the time without any sense of context (i.e. that he was pretty distraught after a really tough loss). There are certainly reasons to criticize Isiah, especially in his post-playing career but sportswriters seemed to take a particular joy of picking apart Isiah at the time and despite what he says, it was most likely something that constantly ate at him. Because ultimately what he wanted was just to be respected and to be considered in the conversation with Bird and Magic (and Jordan to a lesser extent but relatively different eras) and it was always an up hill battle for him in that regard whereas the situations Bird and Magic went into were just easier in terms of success (something that neither of them fully seem to appreciate by the way). He's never really gotten that and it's something that he always deserved.

[Rake2204]

This part absolutely killed me. When they showed the clip of Isiah explaining to the media why Dumars wan't going to be at the press conference, then cut to Isiah in present day explaining the situation, and then cutting to Dumars making that high arching floater and jogging back down the court shrugging to Isiah. Just tears and you know Dumars doing that just had to have been eating Isiah inside at that moment.Agreed. That part was really well done. I was fighting back emotions.

And it was also interesting to see the doc touch on misconception and double standards, such as that Magic Johnson elbow being interpreted as, "Oh man! How great! He'll just do anything to win!" Or how there were at least two interviewees who were so flatly certain that Isiah Thomas initiated the '91 walkoff (that Boston pulled on Detroit years earlier), only for Bill Laimbeer to say, "That was all me."

[RedBlackAttack]

It's funny how time changes perspective. I despised the "Bad Boy" Pistons back in the day, as just about everyone did. However, even before this documentary aired, I came to respect their run... and even occasionally long for the physicality that they brought to the game.

The shot of Dantley trying to help up 'Nique and Bill Laimbeer slapping his hand away... f#cking awesome. That's something you aren't likely to see in today's league, where guys seem to use dead ball situations as a time to make dinner plans with the opponent. That may not be the reality, but it definitely feels like it compared to the atmosphere that existed when the Pistons were at their peak.

It wasn't just the players... when there is a palpable disdain between players, it rubs off onto the crowd and the viewers... just makes the game that much more intense.

I never thought I'd miss Laimbeer. I'd absolutely love to see that team go up against the super friends in Miami... and I have a feeling so would Bill.

[Rake2204]

One more gem from Dantley. I was initially wondering if there was something we were all missing, but I admit I'm now leaning toward taking the "That dude is flat out bitter or out of touch" angle.

Dantley was asked if he would have been MVP had the Pistons beaten the Lakers in the 1988 NBA Finals.

“Naw, I don’t think Isiah was gonna let me be the MVP,” Dantley said. “That never was gonna happen.”http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140418/SPORTS0102/304180097/Former-Piston-Adrian-Dantley-calls-Isiah-Thomas-con-man-radio-interview

Speaking of which, an interesting tidbit:

There was tension between several of the Detroit stars and high-scoring Adrian Dantley. It was over money. Promo money. The Walt Disney Company was going to give the MVP of the Finals $35,000 to say, "Now I'm going to Disneyland!" Piston center Bill Laimbeer and Isiah Thomas had said that if they won the award, they would split the money with the team. Dantley wanted to keep it.

Dantley was easily the richest man on the team, earning $1,250,000 per year, plus endorsements. No matter. If he earned thirty-five thousand bucks, it was his. They'd finally compromised by agreeing that the winner would keep half the money and share half. But it had caused friction - mostly because it was part of a larger, ongoing argument about selfishness... the Pistons' chemistry was slight off. [Jack McCloskey] was aware of it, and there was nothing he could do about it. For now.

[Da_Realist]

Rake2204,

1989 or 1990 Pistons? Isiah says 1989 because of Rick Mahorn. I say 1990 because Dennis Rodman had an expanded role. Who you got?

[Rake2204]

Rake2204,

1989 or 1990 Pistons? Isiah says 1989 because of Rick Mahorn. I say 1990 because Dennis Rodman had an expanded role. Who you got?Yeesh, I don't know if I could choose between the two, particularly from an analytic point of view. My feelings are to go with the '89 club. I think it's tough to compensate for the fire, intensity, and will that comes with wanting to break through more than anything in the world. I know those are buzzwords and immeasurable, but there's always something about those first teams of dynasties to win. I feel the same way about the '04 Pistons versus '05.

Stepping back and looking at things from an objective point of view, I think there's a lot of give-and-take between the clubs. In '90, Mahorn was gone, but Rodman stepped up a little more (playing 6-7 more minutes, emerging as a full fledged defensive stopper). But then on the other hand, there were some old players getting older (James Edwards, Vinnie Johnson, Bill Laimbeer), but none seemed to have hit that point-of-no-return yet, still contributing greatly. So I can vibe with you on your angle. Very similar team, Rodman stepping up to replace Rick Mahorn.

From a statistical outlook, it almost feels like a toss-up. From the intangible point-of-view, I think I'd roll with the hungry Bad Boys of '89.

[ProfessorMurder]

It's funny how time changes perspective. I despised the "Bad Boy" Pistons back in the day, as just about everyone did. However, even before this documentary aired, I came to respect their run... and even occasionally long for the physicality that they brought to the game.

The shot of Dantley trying to help up 'Nique and Bill Laimbeer slapping his hand away... f#cking awesome. That's something you aren't likely to see in today's league, where guys seem to use dead ball situations as a time to make dinner plans with the opponent. That may not be the reality, but it definitely feels like it compared to the atmosphere that existed when the Pistons were at their peak.

It wasn't just the players... when there is a palpable disdain between players, it rubs off onto the crowd and the viewers... just makes the game that much more intense.

I agree. Yet the second someone like KG or Cousins does something the whole NBA fanbase calls them pieces of shit.

I want edgy players damn it!

[Rake2204]

Re-running on ESPN right now.

[jlip]

Fun fact: Adrian Dantley did not watch the 30 for 30 last night. Also, if you can believe it, he still doesn't like Isiah Thomas.



http://www.freep.com/article/20140418/SPORTS03/304180099/detroit-pistons-adrian-dantley-isiah-thomas

Dantley has to be the unluckiest player in NBA history.


Adrian Dantley:

Plays for the Lakers with Kareem and is unable to win a title. The Lakers draft Magic in '79. Dantley is traded from the Lakers to the Jazz that summer. The Lakers proceed to win the title that season. After a few years of dominant individual scoring but nothing more than average teams in Utah he's traded to the Pistons. In '88 the Pistons come within a few plays of winning the championship with Dantley being a potential candidate for Finals MVP, but they lose to the Lakers. He's traded to the Mavs midway through the '89 season. The Pistons win the '89 title.

[Rake2204]

Dantley has to be the unluckiest player in NBA history.The NHL's Marian Hossa was on that track for a bit. As a member of the Penguins, he lost to the Red Wings in the Stanley Cup Finals in 2008. Then he signed with the Red Wings in the off season and turned around and lost the Penguins in the 2009 Stanley Cup Finals (finally won one the very next year with Chicago).

[jlip]

WOW...It was strange seeing Rick Mahorn cry because he was "drafted away" to the expansion T-Wolves.

[blacknapalm]

WOW...It was strange seeing Rick Mahorn cry because he was "drafted away" to the expansion T-Wolves.

true. even you know they're millionaires, you forget these guys have emotions and attachments just everyone else. seemed detroit was tight knit group...def didn't always agree w/ each other but would always go to bat for one another. you tend to overlook the relationships made between players and management as well.

[BlackVVaves]

Dantley has to be the unluckiest player in NBA history.

Asshole player reaping asshole karma.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Dantley has to be the unluckiest player in NBA history.

He was also, plenty of a times, a shitty teammate on and off the court, he didn't have a single care about defense throughout most of his career, he was too "relaxed" on them defensive boards, he could pass but many times could be a blackhole... What you've said it's not all about bad luck, let's say. I'll tell that very few could put the ball through the basket at the same rate as him though, and he was changing his playing ways with the Pistons.

[houston]

Asshole player reaping asshole karma.


exactly

[MiseryCityTexas]

Dantley has to be the unluckiest player in NBA history.


the 70s lakers had adrian dantley and kareem abdul jabbar on the same team, and still couldn't win shit. had no clue that adrian and thomas didn't like each other.

[MiseryCityTexas]

I hope some of the kids who believe our elder statesmen sucked watched that. I enjoyed it; great memories as I have no love for Celtics, Chicago or Detroit. Makes today's floppers look like a bunch of *******


NBA Players flopped during the 70s and 80s also.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Great documentary, even though I hated this team with a passion. Still do, there was parts during the doc where I started getting heated even looking at their smug faces.

Dantley comes off as so stupid, selfish, and paranoid to this day. Salley, and Lambier define douche status.

And Isiah, god love his Chicago roots, warrior heart, and competitiveness ... was at times ridiculously selfish, shady, and kniving.

Walking off the court while the game is in progress, while the bench is still on the floor. Not giving the victors their due, is outrageously bad sportsmanship. Sore losers. Like all bullies when they get punched in their mouth, they're off running.

[jayfan]

Great documentary, even though I hated this team with a passion. Still do, there was parts during the doc where I started getting heated even looking at their smug faces.

Dantley comes off as so stupid, selfish, and paranoid to this day. Salley, and Lambier define douche status.

And Isiah, god love his Chicago roots, warrior heart, and competitiveness ... was at times ridiculously selfish, shady, and kniving.

Walking off the court while the game is in progress, while the bench is still on the floor. Not giving the victors their due, is outrageously bad sportsmanship. Sore losers. Like all bullies when they get punched in their mouth, they're off running.

Of course , when it comes to douche status, no one can hold a candle to Scottie Pippen. King of all douches.

[Rake2204]

Walking off the court while the game is in progress, while the bench is still on the floor. Not giving the victors their due, is outrageously bad sportsmanship. Sore losers. Like all bullies when they get punched in their mouth, they're off running.One thing I didn't know prior to the documentary was about the Boston Celtics starters leaving the court before their series with the Pistons ended in '88. At least, that seemed to be what was insinuated in the film (though I recall seeing McHale shaking Thomas' hand). It'd clearly be a two-wrongs-don't-make-a-right situation, but did Boston really do that?

And of course, the super biased part of me wants to say, "Michael Jordan gets a three game lead then begins to talk about how it'll be so great for the Pistons to be eliminated and how they weren't worthy champions, blah blah blah then he wants to have an issue with them not shaking his hand?" But I understand that's not a leveled response or conclusion to make.

[Meticode]

The shot of Dantley trying to help up 'Nique and Bill Laimbeer slapping his hand away... f#cking awesome. That's something you aren't likely to see in today's league, where guys seem to use dead ball situations as a time to make dinner plans with the opponent. That may not be the reality, but it definitely feels like it compared to the atmosphere that existed when the Pistons were at their peak.

Closest thing we've seen to that is ironically Isiah Thomas Jr. trying to shake hand with Chris Paul after a game and DeMarcus Counsins is pulling Isiah away telling him not to.

[Meticode]

I liked the documentary, the only thing I don't like about the Pistons is how classless they were at times. For example walking off the court against Chicago early like that.

[steve]

One thing I didn't know prior to the documentary was about the Boston Celtics starters leaving the court before their series with the Pistons ended in '88. At least, that seemed to be what was insinuated in the film (though I recall seeing McHale shaking Thomas' hand). It'd clearly be a two-wrongs-don't-make-a-right situation, but did Boston really do that?

And of course, the super biased part of me wants to say, "Michael Jordan gets a three game lead then begins to talk about how it'll be so great for the Pistons to be eliminated and how they weren't worthy champions, blah blah blah then he wants to have an issue with them not shaking his hand?" But I understand that's not a leveled response or conclusion to make.

That's sort of the larger point the documentary is trying to make, in how there was a certain narrative created around this team that kind of dismisses that they were really good teams. Nothing they did was necessarily different than what other teams did but the negative aspects are focused on more because the narrative says that the Pistons were the heels and in some respects bad for basketball. They were bad guys essentially because people said they were bad guys.

[Thorn]

Dantley has to be the unluckiest player in NBA history.
You could argue that the type of player Dantley was, a selfish black hole who couldn't defend anyone meant that those teams were far better without him. Could the Lakers win with Dantley in place of Wilkes, defending Erving? No way. And we just saw that the champion Pistons had a mini-implosion that dissipated the instant Dantley was traded.

So I think he made his own bad luck. Had he bought into the team concept during his Pistons years it'd be him instead of Aguirre as a champ.

[Hoopz2332]

Great docu. Adrian Dantley was salty as hell:oldlol:

[jlip]

I do wonder how Dantley would be perceived if the Pistons had won in '88. Would he have been the Finals MVP? Would he have been traded?

[Thorn]

I do wonder how Dantley would be perceived if the Pistons had won in '88. Would he have been the Finals MVP? Would he have been traded?
No way Dantley wins FMVP after Isiah's Game 6. If he still causes the same chemistry issues he did in 89 he gets dealt.

[Rake2204]

No way Dantley wins FMVP after Isiah's Game 6. If he still causes the same chemistry issues he did in 89 he gets dealt.I think that's true, though statistically, he was having a pretty solid series in his own right (team leading 21 per). I think I mentioned it a few days ago, but there apparently was some infighting that year regarding what would happen to the Finals MVP cash reward if the Pistons were victorious. There was a divide between Dantley and the rest of the team because they all felt the pot should be split amongst the entire team, while Dantley vowed to keep all of it (if he were to win).

I've also read reports that Dantley would always check the coin returns on pay phones in the airport. That feller seemed to really like money.

[1987_Lakers]

Loved the part when Dantley was describing his personality saying he was reserved and suspicious of other people then they show him suspiciously looking at camera crew worker who is behind him.

[ProfessorMurder]

Anyone have a link to the aftershow thing?

[Tarik One]

Adrian Dantley = Glen Rice on the Lakers.

When the Lakers were pursuing Rice, the first question he asked to management was: "Will i still get my shots?". Nevermind the fact they already had 2superstars who were carrying the bulk of the offense and were on the cusp of winning a title. All Rice initially cared about were his numbers.

Sure the Lakers won the title with him in 2000, but they shipped him out quick because he was wrecking team chemistry and they won 2 more without him.

[SamuraiSWISH]

And of course, the super biased part of me wants to say, "Michael Jordan gets a three game lead then begins to talk about how it'll be so great for the Pistons to be eliminated and how they weren't worthy champions
He didn't say they weren't worthy champions. MJ implied in comments what was basically the league wide consensus that the "Bad Boy" Pistons were a dirty, claseless team. Which is true, and the Pistons went onto prove it with their actions in that very series. So they're either dumb, or truly are scummy personalities. They played the role of bully to perfection. Don't even try to play the "woe is me" card for those Pistons teams.

[ballup]

Saw this last week. It was great. They did a good job painting the personalities of each player.

[Dro]

I've watched this 5 times already...Reminds of the reaction the Pacers get....NOT saying the Pacers are anywhere as good as those Pistons teams(obviously not)...But they remind me of them......

Also, people need to start giving Isaiah the credit he deserves...

[tontoz]

For his career Bird averaged 24/10 with 6 assists and a TS of 56.4%. Feel free to post the black guys who had those numbers and were considered just another good player.

[Doctor Rivers]

https://twitter.com/KingJames/statuses/456969838628728833

Always has to comment about everything

[Cowboy Thunder]

I understand there was a time crunch with the doc so not everything made the cut. But I was surprised this didn't at least get a mention - Rick Mahorn was picked up by the Wolves in the expansion draft but never played a game for them; he was dealt to the 76ers for draft picks just prior to the season.

Then, when the Sixers came to town looking to clinch the Atlantic Division in the third to last game of the season, here's how his former teammates welcomed him back. You'll enjoy it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-5ablJYVcg

Bad ass. Thanks for posting this.


Can't get enough of this documentary. Watching it for the 2nd time this week.

[Bless Mathews]

Bad ass. Thanks for posting this.


Can't get enough of this documentary. Watching it for the 2nd time this week.

Watching it again now.

One of my biggest reasons why I can't stand young idiots on here.

80's and 90's basketball was literally like football in the key.

An average "hard foul" that happened 10+ times a game would be flagrant 2 or ejections.

Smh.

And you could basically push ball handler on perimeter.

Jordan would literally average 45+ today.

League is soft as fuccin butter now.

[L.Kizzle]

Mark Aguirre was trippin doe. Adrian Dantley was killin homie back in the gap.

[Round Mound]

One of the best 30 for 30s if not the best basketball informative video i`ve seen about a team. The bad boys definetly get underrated these days...

[Rake2204]

Just watched this again. Still struggling to comprehend Adrian Dantley's delusion, both back then and in present day.

[Rose'sACL]

One of the best 30 for 30s if not the best basketball informative video i`ve seen about a team. The bad boys definetly get underrated these days...
No, they don't get underrated. Where have you been living?

[3ball]

One of the best 30 for 30s if not the best basketball informative video i`ve seen about a team. The bad boys definetly get underrated these days...


I like the part where Pippen talks about choking in Game 7 of 1990 ECF and costing the Bulls a trip to the Finals that year:

PIPPEN: "It was the pressure of the game.. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew.. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s


LAIMBEER: "We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen.. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires and you can't win with just 1 player like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s

[Showtime80']

Best quote of the special provided by Aguirre " We were the most devastating in the most devastating era" Nothing to be said after that

[ClipperRevival]

The best sports documentary I have ever seen.

I loved the part when Isiah talked about getting bullied by some kid and he went to his mom expecting sympathy. But no, his mom said you have to go back out there and fight him. You wonder where Isiah got his killer instinct, it could be situations like this that forged his personality.

One of the best teams ever assembled. Easily could've 3 peated in the most stacked era ever.

[ClipperRevival]

I like the part where Pippen talks about choking in Game 7 of 1990 ECF and costing the Bulls a trip to the Finals that year:

PIPPEN: "It was the pressure of the game.. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew.. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s


LAIMBEER: "We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen.. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires and you can't win with just 1 player like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s

Pip was pretty much admitting that he choked.

[TheBigVeto]

It wasn't asinine to say that. Everybody was saying that about Bird back in the day. Rodman and Zeke just said what everybody else was afraid to say.

Racism against white players is not new, the bad boy Pistons just made it trendy.

[ZMonkey11]

Easily kill any team in history, even the 2004 Pistons. (probably second best team ever)

[TheBigVeto]

Of course , when it comes to douche status, no one can hold a candle to Scottie Pippen. King of all douches.

Kobe has him beat.

[Chadwin]

Watching it again now.

One of my biggest reasons why I can't stand young idiots on here.

80's and 90's basketball was literally like football in the key.

An average "hard foul" that happened 10+ times a game would be flagrant 2 or ejections.

Smh.

And you could basically push ball handler on perimeter.

Jordan would literally average 45+ today.

League is soft as fuccin butter now.

agreed

[TheBigVeto]

THIS.

Let's stop this nonsense of trying to validate the ignorance that Rodman spewed and Zeke affirmed please.

Because saying Larry would just be another player if he was black is implying that Kareem, Magic, and Thomas were "just another black guy" performing. Which they clearly were not. They were all time greats.

Only simple minded racist mother****ers thought like that. And even though I'm not naive enough to think those kind of bigots didn't (or don't) exist back then in the basketball community, by 1988 it certainly wasn't the prevailing opinion of the masses.

So cut the shit. What they said was wrong. Dead wrong. Whether it was a poor choice of words or just emotionally spurred idiocy, it was wrong.


Rodman and Isiah have always been racist and got a free pass.

[Straight_Ballin]

Racism against white players is not new, the bad boy Pistons just made it trendy.

Bill Lamb was the biggest racist on the team.

[Rake2204]

Pip was pretty much admitting that he choked.That was interesting to me, because he easily could have just stuck to his migraine guns and said, "Don't know why I got a migraine but I did. I wanted nothing more than to be out there but I couldn't see straight and I felt like I was going to die."

I was actually feeling a bit of sympathy for Pippen for a moment because I was thinking people were too hard on him about the migraine thing, because it's an invisible injury and from what I've heard, it's one of the worst experiences of all-time.

But like you said, he seemed to suggest that maybe it wasn't so much about excruciating pain as much as it was not being able to handle the moment. It was somewhat interesting to deconstruct. Why wouldn't he just play the migraine card straight up? Is it somehow honorable for him to hint that there might have been more to it?

[ClipperRevival]

That was interesting to me, because he easily could have just stuck to his migraine guns and said, "Don't know why I got a migraine but I did. I wanted nothing more than to be out there but I couldn't see straight and I felt like I was going to die."

I was actually feeling a bit of sympathy for Pippen for a moment because I was thinking people were too hard on him about the migraine thing, because it's an invisible injury and from what I've heard, it's one of the worst experiences of all-time.

But like you said, he seemed to suggest that maybe it wasn't so much about excruciating pain as much as it was not being able to handle the moment. It was somewhat interesting to deconstruct. Why wouldn't he just play the migraine card straight up? Is it somehow honorable for him to hint that there might have been more to it?

No harm in being honest now. He won 6 rings so his career is fulfilled. If he had never won a ring, maybe he would've stuck exclusively with the migraine card.

[3ball]

but I couldn't see straight and I felt like I was going to die.


Pip never said he felt like this.. And obviously if he had felt like this, he wouldn't have played at all.

But the guy played 42 minutes.. 2 pts, 1-10 FG

[Rake2204]

Pip never said he felt like this.. And obviously if he had felt like this, he wouldn't have played at all.

But the guy played 42 minutes.. 2 pts, 1-10 FGRight, my point was he could have easily blamed everything solely on the migraine if he wanted to by saying something like that. Instead, he came close to hinting that he just wasn't ready for the pressure. The line you quoted was a hypothetical "he could have deflected his failure by saying this" type of thing.

No harm in being honest now. He won 6 rings so his career is fulfilled. If he had never won a ring, maybe he would've stuck exclusively with the migraine card.Very true.

[3ball]

Right, my point was he could have easily blamed everything solely on the migraine if he wanted to by saying something like that.


No he couldn't have.. No one would have believed him..

He played 42 minutes, which is impossible if someone feels like they're going to die and can't see, as you said.

Also, the line I quoted was not a hypothetical.. Pip was discussing an actual game that he played horribly in, and he was explaining why.. there was no hypothetical.

[SouBeachTalents]

Easily kill any team in history, even the 2004 Pistons. (probably second best team ever)

:biggums: