is lebron the greatest forward of all time? - bill and jalen talk

[Keno]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgUzkGBkRdc

bill is dropping that ether right from the start of the video. everyone knows bill is a celtics fan and loves larry bird. jalen is looking salty as hell in this video tho. some quotes for people who don't want to watch:

"he's won more mvps than bird, he's been much more durable than bird, he's a better two-way player than bird, his stats are a little better than birds"

"let's say lebron wins the title (this year), he is now one of the top 5 greatest players of all time if that happens, even i have to admit that. i also think he would pass magic" (different subject)

bill's top 6: jordan, russell, kareem, magic, bird, wilt. "if lebron wins his 3rd title he climbs dead even with magic, and slightly ahead of bird"

the kobe part was hilarious tho, jalen gave an honorable mention to kobe and bill ended that argument quickly by saying "one mvp his whole career, first 3 titles shaq was the best player on the team" lmao.

[IncarceratedBob]

Bird and Duncan are still clearly ahead

[russwest0]

bill simmons :roll:

[Keno]

bill simmons :roll:

you mean the bill simmons that knows more about the nba/nba history than your entire family tree combined? please, do continue.

[riseagainst]

yes. Kobe Bryant is not in the same class as Lebron, who is in the same class as Bird. But Bird is still better than Lebron.

[navy]

Lebron needs 5 titles to pass Duncan.

He needs 3-4 titles and to retire to pass Bird as he as pretty much surpassed his career totals already. Which is weird because Bird is higher then Duncan on most all time list.

[russwest0]

you mean the bill simmons that knows more about the nba/nba history than your entire family tree combined? please, do continue.

Ah yes, the same Bill Simmons who has been prediciting OKC to be a 4th-6th seed in the regular season for two years now.

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/bill-simmons-sucks-at-playing-basketball-terrible-basketball-shots.gif

Surely this guy is a great basketball mind. :applause:

[rmt]

Only player who would match up with his accomplishments and dominance if he wins this year is Duncan. It would be one hell of a debate.

So you think that 4 MVPs, 2 rings, 2 FMVPs is a debate vs 2 MVPs, 5 rings and 3 (or possibly 4) FMVPs.

[riseagainst]

So you think that 4 MVPs, 2 rings, 2 FMVPs is a debate vs 2 MVPs, 5 rings and 3 (or possibly 4) FMVPs.

how is that not a debate? Those are very close accomplishments. Aside from the rings, which are team accomplishments.

4 mvps to 2 mvps
2 fmvps to 3 fmvps

[J Shuttlesworth]

So you think that 4 MVPs, 2 rings, 2 FMVPs is a debate vs 2 MVPs, 5 rings and 3 (or possibly 4) FMVPs.
He's saying if LeBron wins this year, the only player in the league to match his accomplishments would be Duncan.

4 FMVPs, 3 rings, 3 FMVPs vs. 2 MVPS, 4 rings, 3 FMVPs

Edit at least that's what I thought he meant

[Keno]

Ah yes, the same Bill Simmons who has been prediciting OKC to be a 4th-6th seed in the regular season for two years now.

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/bill-simmons-sucks-at-playing-basketball-terrible-basketball-shots.gif

Surely this guy is a great basketball mind. :applause:

it wasn't 6th seed, they ranked okc as the 6th best team in the entire league. which is reasonable.

[TheReal Kendall]

"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation." - Oscar Wilde

[riseagainst]

"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation." - Oscar Wilde

"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious."

[Solefade]

Lebron needs 5 titles to pass Duncan.

He needs 3-4 titles and to retire to pass Bird as he as pretty much surpassed his career totals already. Which is weird because Bird is higher then Duncan on most all time list.


why does lebron need 5 titles? lebron w/ 3 titles and another MVP is enough to pass duncan as is...just IMO though

[navy]

why does lebron need 5 titles? lebron w/ 3 titles and another MVP is enough to pass duncan as is...just IMO though
Nope. 4 titles at the least.

[Solefade]

Nope. 4 titles at the least.


where do you rank duncan on top 10?

[Solefade]

bills simmons top 6 list is pretty solid and how he quickly ended that debate about kobe was hilarious

[zoom17]

Slightly behind bird right now with 3rd ring slightly ahead.

[navy]

where do you rank duncan on top 10?
Top ten list are stupid. But he is in the 5-10 range I guess. Duncan has 4 titles and insane longevity. Lebron cant surpass him with 2-3 rings imo. Unless his body holds up of course.

Which is weird because Bird is probably ranked higher then Duncan in most top ten list, and let's be honest if Lebron wins this year, Bird will have no argument over him. But I dont think anyone would dare but Lebron above Bird in a top ten list nomatter what happens this year :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Simmons is incredibly biased against Laker players

[Solefade]

Top ten list are stupid. But he is in the 5-10 range I guess. Duncan has 4 titles and insane longevity. Lebron cant surpass him with 2-3 rings imo. Unless his body holds up of course.

Which is weird because Bird is probably ranked higher then Duncan in most top ten list, and let's be honest if Lebron wins this year, Bird will have no argument over him. But I dont think anyone would dare but Lebron above Bird in a top ten list nomatter what happens this year :confusedshrug:


technically duncan's current resume is arguably better than bird but why is that he's not ranked higher? but for some reason no one really agrees with duncan > bird :confusedshrug:

i think with a 3fmvp and 5 mvps LBJ is top 6 and that's sufficient to pass duncan IMO..

[Solefade]

Simmons is incredibly biased against Laker players


lol he has magic and kareem ahead of bird

[navy]

technically duncan's current resume is arguably better than bird but why is that he's not ranked higher? but for some reason no one really agrees with duncan > bird :confusedshrug:

i think with a 3fmvp and 5 mvps LBJ is top 6 and that's sufficient to pass duncan IMO..
Which is the problem with top ten list. No objective criteria.

[navy]

Let's be honest Kobe is around Duncan's tier. Probably tied.

[zoom17]

Simmons is incredibly biased against Laker players

two of his top 5 are laker players:coleman:

[TheMarkMadsen]

lol he has magic and kareem ahead of bird

Kareem is a no brainer.

But Lebron with one more ring is dead even with magic?


I think it's funny that they are using the ring argument and basically nothing else. Just a very simple way of ranking players that all Lebron fans use to mock.. Yet now Lebron fans are jumping all over it

[red1]

greatest bald black man over 6'7 who wears a headband

[navy]

I think it's funny that they are using the ring argument and basically nothing else.
Except they arent. Lebron with 3 is still less than everyone mentioned besides Bird.

[rlsmooth775]

Kareem is a no brainer.

But Lebron with one more ring is dead even with magic?


I think it's funny that they are using the ring argument and basically nothing else. Just a very simple way of ranking players that all Lebron fans use to mock.. Yet now Lebron fans are jumping all over it

ring with finals mvp

[Solefade]

Kareem is a no brainer.

But Lebron with one more ring is dead even with magic?


there's a good argument there and still magic would be one spot ahead of lebron...

magic: 3 mvps 5 rings (2 as the man)

lebron: if he wins 3 rings as the man, 4 mvps...that doesn't sound biased at all

if lebron wins 4 rings as the man, 4 mvps then he's surely ahead of magic...

[red1]

oh shit never mind that might be al harrington or brendan haywood
http://blog.spartanrace.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/SPAR-HarringtonAlPhotoNo1.jpg
http://www.shoot-hoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/brendan_haywood.jpg

[TheMarkMadsen]

there's a good argument there and still magic would be one spot ahead of lebron...

magic: 3 mvps 5 rings (2 as the man)

lebron: if he wins 3 rings as the man, 4 mvps...that doesn't sound biased at all

if lebron wins 4 rings as the man, 4 mvps then he's surely ahead of magic...


I haven't watched the video but did he "discredit" any of Magic, Bird or KAJ rings for not winning FMVP like he did for Kobe?

[russwest0]

wait so if LeBron wins 3 rings and gets 3 FMVP's then he's on par with someone like Duncan who has 5 rings just because they tie in FMVP's?

Yet LeBron would have 3 rings RIGHT NOW and 2 FMVP's if he didn't choke his ass off in 2011.

[navy]

wait so if LeBron wins 3 rings and gets 3 FMVP's then he's on par with someone like Duncan who has 5 rings just because they tie in FMVP's?

Yet LeBron would have 3 rings RIGHT NOW and 2 FMVP's if he didn't choke his ass off in 2011.
Duncan has 4 rings. Thanks for playing.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

wait so if LeBron wins 3 rings and gets 3 FMVP's then he's on par with someone like Duncan who has 5 rings just because they tie in FMVP's?

Yet LeBron would have 3 rings RIGHT NOW and 2 FMVP's if he didn't choke his ass off in 2011.

Always knew you were an uneducated clown.

[NumberSix]

wait so if LeBron wins 3 rings and gets 3 FMVP's then he's on par with someone like Duncan who has 5 rings just because they tie in FMVP's?

Yet LeBron would have 3 rings RIGHT NOW and 2 FMVP's if he didn't choke his ass off in 2011.
Fail. As youzhe.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

If LeBron wins two more titles hell be tied with Wilt for nr.1 all time.
if he wins 3 more and 1-2 MVPS hell go down as the unanimous GOAT. he will break the NBA scoring record too, baring injuries:applause: :applause:

[Solefade]

I haven't watched the video but did he "discredit" any of Magic, Bird or KAJ rings for not winning FMVP like he did for Kobe?


he said Magic only won 2 as the man, and also played with one of the greatest of all time in KAJ but still has both in top 4 the kicker between magic and kobe are the MVPs

[Keno]

wait so if LeBron wins 3 rings and gets 3 FMVP's then he's on par with someone like Duncan who has 5 rings just because they tie in FMVP's?

Yet LeBron would have 3 rings RIGHT NOW and 2 FMVP's if he didn't choke his ass off in 2011.

lololol retard hicks gonna hick.

[Solefade]

Bill Simmons is an NBA encyclopedia and although he's a boston homer, he's pretty objective

[truhooper]

the kobe part was hilarious tho, jalen gave an honorable mention to kobe and bill ended that argument quickly by saying "one mvp his whole career, first 3 titles shaq was the best player on the team" lmao.

:applause: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

They said that..."if" Lebron were to win another ring and fmvp this year

Well yea...I mean...he'd have to play great to do that.

If Lebron has 4 mvp's, 5 trips to the finals, 3 titles, and 3 finals mvp's in 11 years while coming out of high school and joining a 17 win team....while putting up some of the best numbers ever while basically hardly ever missing games...

That would be enough to put him slightly ahead of Bird for me. But hew wouldn't be top 5 for me either.

I'd still have

MJ
Russell
Magic
Duncan
Kareem

Then I'd probably put Lebron 6th all time...

But that is if he wins. If he loses...then he stays right around 10th to 12th all time where he belongs...

Big legacy year for Lebron. A title here pretty much erases the 11 finals. No title and it's 2 titles in 4 years on a loaded team with weak competition 11 through 13 historically...and the single worst finals a star player has ever had in my time watching the game.

Yea...big year for legacy shit. Damn...the NBA playoffs are ****ing amazing...:applause:

[SexSymbol]

lebron will never be the player Bird was.
Just complete different animal, offensively lightyears ahead.
Everybody knows Bill hates Kobe, he's a celtic homer for crying out loud. And he's not the one to talk about basketball, he didn't even play it as a child, he doesn't know anything besides few historic facts that his team managed to find out. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't even write his own book, his predictions are always off, all his arguments are "they should just blow it up". It's actually quite funny looking ant Jalen's face when he listens to bill predict something. It's always "c'mon man, you suck at it, just admit it"

[Solefade]

They said that..."if" Lebron were to win another ring and fmvp this year

Well yea...I mean...he'd have to play great to do that.

If Lebron has 4 mvp's, 5 trips to the finals, 3 titles, and 3 finals mvp's in 11 years while coming out of high school and joining a 17 win team....while putting up some of the best numbers ever while basically hardly ever missing games...

That would be enough to put him slightly ahead of Bird for me. But hew wouldn't be top 5 for me either.

I'd still have

MJ
Russell
Magic
Duncan
Kareem

Then I'd probably put Lebron 6th all time...

But that is if he wins. If he loses...then he stays right around 10th to 12th all time where he belongs...

Big legacy year for Lebron. A title here pretty much erases the 11 finals. No title and it's 2 titles in 4 years on a loaded team with weak competition 11 through 13 historically...and the single worst finals a star player has ever had in my time watching the game.

Yea...big year for legacy shit. Damn...the NBA playoffs are ****ing amazing...:applause:

i agree, a 3peat on a herculean effort to win this year is enough to convince the haters too i'd say..and depending on how he wins he squeezes into top 5

[DMAVS41]

i agree, a 3peat on a herculean effort to win this year is enough to convince the haters too i'd say..and depending on how he wins he squeezes into top 5

It would take a historic performance for him to leap Kareem or Magic or Duncan for me all time after only 11 years...

But I'm open enough for that, but it would take a lot in these playoffs to do that.

Duncan might pass Magic for me though. If Duncan goes like 18/10/3 again like last year while playing great defense and plays a another quality finals and he wins....especially if he got fmvp...damn...I think I'd have to move him over Magic. The longevity and defensive dominance would just be too much I think.

[Solefade]

It would take a historic performance for him to leap Kareem or Magic or Duncan for me all time after only 11 years...

But I'm open enough for that, but it would take a lot in these playoffs to do that.


if he has another ecf g6 2012 style performance there's no doubt he's in there

[SexSymbol]

They said that..."if" Lebron were to win another ring and fmvp this year

Well yea...I mean...he'd have to play great to do that.

If Lebron has 4 mvp's, 5 trips to the finals, 3 titles, and 3 finals mvp's in 11 years while coming out of high school and joining a 17 win team....while putting up some of the best numbers ever while basically hardly ever missing games...

That would be enough to put him slightly ahead of Bird for me. But hew wouldn't be top 5 for me either.

I'd still have

MJ
Russell
Magic
Duncan
Kareem

Then I'd probably put Lebron 6th all time...

But that is if he wins. If he loses...then he stays right around 10th to 12th all time where he belongs...

Big legacy year for Lebron. A title here pretty much erases the 11 finals. No title and it's 2 titles in 4 years on a loaded team with weak competition 11 through 13 historically...and the single worst finals a star player has ever had in my time watching the game.

Yea...big year for legacy shit. Damn...the NBA playoffs are ****ing amazing...:applause:
3 title lebron over Kobe? lol
3 title lebron over Dr.J? lol
3 title lebron over Shaq? lol

Doesn't people realize how ****ing weak the league is? And that until Kobe got old LeBron couldn't win shit?
He's a fantastic player, but thread like these are what overrates him, he's not above Shaq, Julius or Kobe even if he wins another ring. 4 would put him in the conversation with all of those guys and from that point on it would be mostly judged on preference. Now it's not even a contest, 2 rings versus 5 or 4 in Shaq's case.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

wait so if LeBron wins 3 rings and gets 3 FMVP's then he's on par with someone like Duncan who has 5 rings just because they tie in FMVP's?

Yet LeBron would have 3 rings RIGHT NOW and 2 FMVP's if he didn't choke his ass off in 2011.
lol self either

[Solefade]

3 title lebron over Kobe? lol
3 title lebron over Dr.J? lol
3 title lebron over Shaq? lol

Doesn't people realize how ****ing weak the league is? And that until Kobe got old LeBron couldn't win shit?
He's a fantastic player, but thread like these are what overrates him, he's not above Shaq, Julius or Kobe even if he wins another ring. 4 would put him in the conversation with all of those guys and from that point on it would be mostly judged on preference. Now it's not even a contest, 2 rings versus 5 or 4 in Shaq's case.


sorry but this thread is reserved for non-retards

[HoopsFanNumero1]

3 title lebron over Kobe? lol
3 title lebron over Dr.J? lol
3 title lebron over Shaq? lol

Doesn't people realize how ****ing weak the league is? And that until Kobe got old LeBron couldn't win shit?
He's a fantastic player, but thread like these are what overrates him, he's not above Shaq, Julius or Kobe even if he wins another ring. 4 would put him in the conversation with all of those guys and from that point on it would be mostly judged on preference. Now it's not even a contest, 2 rings versus 5 or 4 in Shaq's case.

:roll:

[PsychoBe]

he's 2-2 in the finals and that doesn't go away nor should we ever forget about it. the bran choke jokes werent something that came from thin air the dude was just a massive choker while being crowned the greatest player on the planet.

still only time will tell, but he did leave his team to join two other all-stars in their prime (and still choked) so we have to consider that.

[NumberSix]

he's 2-2 in the finals and that doesn't go away nor should we ever forget about it. the bran choke jokes werent something that came from thin air the dude was just a massive choker while being crowned the greatest player on the planet.

still only time will tell, but he did leave his team to join two other all-stars in their prime (and still choked) so we have to consider that.
He's actually 2-9. Not winning is not winning. Losing the finals is the maximum amount of winning you can do without winning the title.

[The-Legend-24]

Yes he is.

LeBron is already a better player than both Bird or Duncan ever were.

[Myth]

The thing that keeps me from thinking LeBron is on prime Duncan level is that LeBron needed a desperation 3 from Ray Allen to beat a team led by Duncan 10 years after his prime.

[DMAVS41]

3 title lebron over Kobe? lol
3 title lebron over Dr.J? lol
3 title lebron over Shaq? lol

Doesn't people realize how ****ing weak the league is? And that until Kobe got old LeBron couldn't win shit?
He's a fantastic player, but thread like these are what overrates him, he's not above Shaq, Julius or Kobe even if he wins another ring. 4 would put him in the conversation with all of those guys and from that point on it would be mostly judged on preference. Now it's not even a contest, 2 rings versus 5 or 4 in Shaq's case.

Well, absolutely for sure over Dr. J...I already have Lebron over him. LOL...

Absolutely for sure over Kobe. I think Lebron is a better player and his resume would be better as well. I don't need a for sure better resume in my rankings, but when I think a player is better like Lebron vs Kobe...and Lebron has a better resume? Then it's easy...

A 4 mvp, 3 ring, 3 finals mvp, 5 trips to the finals in 11 years with far superior numbers and plays better defense is trumping a 1 mvp, 5 titles, 2 finals mvp, 7 trips to the finals player that I find to be worse.

Again, this is assuming Lebron wins. Right now I have them basically tied.

Shaq? Could totally see the arguments for Shaq. I just think Lebron's resume would put him over the top there, but I'd have them very close.

It would be a tier of Lebron/Wilt/Shaq/Bird for me then and I wouldn't really argue with anyone much about the order.

But Dr. J and Kobe? Please...they done if Lebron wins another title and fmvp this year.

[Solefade]

Duncan is consistent as hell but he barely has any spectacular performances...i think thats why he doesn't get the respect he should receive based on his resume like bird or magic and even lebron...but the thing that gets lost is popovic is an amazing coach that doesnt get enough credit

[NumberSix]

The thing that keeps me from thinking LeBron is on prime Duncan level is that LeBron needed a desperation 3 from Ray Allen to beat a team led by Duncan 10 years after his prime.
Of course. The only game tying 3 in finals history that wasn't even the last shot of the quarter. Of course. Robert Horry has never had a game tying 3 before. :rolleyes:

[DMAVS41]

Duncan is consistent as hell but he barely has any spectacular performances...i think thats why he doesn't get the respect he should receive based on his resume like bird or magic and even lebron...but the thing that gets lost is popovic is an amazing coach that doesnt get enough credit

But Duncan does have that...his 03 performance start to finish trumps anything Lebron has done in the playoffs to date in my opinion.

Also, Duncan's spectacular play has often been overlooked because it has come on defense.

I just don't think even die hard fans like us give the man enough credit for the kind of defense he's played throughout his career.

[NumberSix]

But Duncan does have that...his 03 performance start to finish trumps anything Lebron has done in the playoffs to date in my opinion.

Also, Duncan's spectacular play has often been overlooked because it has come on defense.

I just don't think even die hard fans like us give the man enough credit for the kind of defense he's played throughout his career.
People don't give Duncan proper credit. You either have idiots who give him next to none or you have other idiots that go overboard. I guess that's true of anybody though.

[DMAVS41]

People don't give Duncan proper credit. You either have idiots who give him next to none or you have other idiots that go overboard. I guess that's true of anybody though.

I guess I'm one of those idiots then...as I rank him 4th all time.

But I really think he has a case for being ranked that high...

[NumberSix]

I guess I'm one of those idiots then...as I rank him 4th all time.

But I really think he has a case for being ranked that high...
I actually think anybody that ranks anybody like that is an idiot. All you can really accurately do is rank players of a specific time period. How anybody can believe they have a special ability to rank players who played 30 years apart is beyond me.

If you think Duncan is the best of his own era, that's fine. I'd disagree, but it's by no means a ridiculous opinion.

[DMAVS41]

I actually think anybody that ranks anybody like that is an idiot. All you can really accurately do is rank players of a specific time period. How anybody can believe they have a special ability to rank players who played 30 years apart is beyond me.

If you think Duncan is the best of his own era, that's fine. I'd disagree, but it's by no means a ridiculous opinion.

It's just a fun thing fans do...we like to form these rankings...

Of course it's not an exact science and it's highly subjective when you get into these top 7 or so guys.

It depends on how you define the era. If the era in question is 98 to present...then yes...I'd take Duncan over anyone.

But Lebron from like 06 to present has been the best player overall during that time...

So it's hard to do "era" stuff...

[Solefade]

Of course. The only game tying 3 in finals history that wasn't even the last shot of the quarter. Of course. Robert Horry has never had a game tying 3 before. :rolleyes:


ray allen obviously hit a 6pter to tie the game :oldlol:

[Blue&Orange]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgUzkGBkRdc

bill is dropping that ether right from the start of the video. everyone knows bill is a celtics fan and loves larry bird. jalen is looking salty as hell in this video tho. some quotes for people who don't want to watch:

"he's won more mvps than bird, he's been much more durable than bird, he's a better two-way player than bird, his stats are a little better than birds"

"let's say lebron wins the title (this year), he is now one of the top 5 greatest players of all time if that happens, even i have to admit that. i also think he would pass magic" (different subject)

bill's top 6: jordan, russell, kareem, magic, bird, wilt. "if lebron wins his 3rd title he climbs dead even with magic, and slightly ahead of bird"

the kobe part was hilarious tho, jalen gave an honorable mention to kobe and bill ended that argument quickly by saying "one mvp his whole career, first 3 titles shaq was the best player on the team" lmao.
u know what's funny, a few years ago same idiots where calling Kobe the goat. U know what's going to be funny, a couple years from now the same idiots will be talking about how Lebron choked, got carried\gifted, how worse his stats where in the post season and mocking the not 1, not 2, not 3 because he got only two.

[KirbyPls]

u know what's funny, a few years ago same idiots where calling Kobe the goat. U know what's going to be funny, a couple years from now the same idiots will be talking about how Lebron choked, got carried\gifted, how worse his stats where in the post season and mocking the not 1, not 2, not 3 because he got only two.

His scoring gets better in the postseason (3rd highest ppg ever), but thatnks for playing.

[Myth]

Of course. The only game tying 3 in finals history that wasn't even the last shot of the quarter. Of course. Robert Horry has never had a game tying 3 before. :rolleyes:

The point being, prime Duncan would have slaughtered prime LeBron if old Duncan could hang with prime LeBron.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Bird played a long time, but that back altered how great he could've been for even longer. Although people act like he played such a short amount of time, but he played equally as long as Magic.

I truly believe as a player, and not pushing resume LeBron should be ranked above those guys. He's just done way too much to not be considered the better basketball player.

[rmt]

The thing that keeps me from thinking LeBron is on prime Duncan level is that LeBron needed a desperation 3 from Ray Allen to beat a team led by Duncan 10 years after his prime.

Were it not for that Ray Allen shot, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead it would be Lebron as a choker, 1 out of 4 Finals, etc. Funny how fine the line between greatness and choker is.

[pauk]

Not much to disagree with.

[pauk]

Bird and Duncan are still clearly ahead

All due respect to Duncan, he has the accolades, that paper looks decent, but come on... context... he wasnt as prominent as Lebron or any of those other top 10 players really (and even some who are around top 15 like Hakeem, Julius, Oscar.... West?).

[navy]

The point being, prime Duncan would have slaughtered prime LeBron if old Duncan could hang with prime LeBron.
They dont play the same position. You cant jut make prime a player on an opposing team because it would have thrown off the Spurs salary cap if Duncan was still in his Prime. If the Spurs still had prime Duncan would they have gotten, Green, or Diaw, or someone else on that roster? Who knows. That series wouldnt have went seven if not for insane three point shooting. Hypotheticals are just that, hypotheticals. :confusedshrug:

[Keno]

The point being, prime Duncan would have slaughtered prime LeBron if old Duncan could hang with prime LeBron.

and if it weren't for danny green not going prime reggie miller on the heat, prime lebron would of won in five games. if, if, if.

[navy]

Were it not for that Ray Allen shot, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead it would be Lebron as a choker, 1 out of 4 Finals, etc. Funny how fine the line between greatness and choker is.
If that's the case, hat if Ray Allen missed the shot and the the rebound landed to Lebron who hit the game tying three. I just made a hypothetical scenerio where Lebron hit the most clutch shot of all time. :confusedshrug:

What if the refs decided to call Tony Parker's double dribble in Game 1 and instead the Heat won that game?

We can play what ifs all day. :confusedshrug:

[Smoke117]

Bird and Duncan are still clearly ahead

No one is clearly ahead between the three. The fact that Lebron still has at least a good 5-6 elite years in him (barring some horrific injury of course)...then yeah he probably will end up the greatest forward of all time by a decent margin.

[ArbitraryWater]

Well he is... no question

Its funny because I've seen from a lot of peeps on here saying Bill knows his shit, and he does... Now I havent read through this thread, but I bet all of the sudden people will be like "Bill is so wrong" blah blah blah...

Did ShaqIsGoat already make his incredibly biased and fact-lacking post?

Bill is a huge Bird homer and he downright killed it right off the start.

Edit: LOL AT Jalen talking out of his ass bwahhaha

Bill brings up Shaq being the man of those first 3 titles, and then Jalen says "Well LeBron joined Wade's team, so some people take stock out of LeBron's 1st ring, EVEN THOUGH HE WAS FINALS MVP.."

wtf? That is so wrong on so many levels... totally irrelevant, and he acknowledged LBJ being the best in 2012.. I mean, its not even an argument ffs..

[Myth]

and if it weren't for danny green not going prime reggie miller on the heat, prime lebron would of won in five games. if, if, if.

Didn't LeBron take about half the series to show up?

[rmt]

If that's the case, hat if Ray Allen missed the shot and the the rebound landed to Lebron who hit the game tying three. I just made a hypothetical scenerio where Lebron hit the most clutch shot of all time. :confusedshrug:

What if the refs decided to call Tony Parker's double dribble in Game 1 and instead the Heat won that game?

We can play what ifs all day. :confusedshrug:

Well, then this whole thread is hypothetical, isn't it? IF LEBRON WINS A RING THIS YEAR, ...

[navy]

Well, then this whole thread is hypothetical, isn't it? IF LEBRON WINS A RING THIS YEAR, ...
Terrible thread. :confusedshrug:

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron needs 5 titles to pass Duncan.

He needs 3-4 titles and to retire to pass Bird as he as pretty much surpassed his career totals already. Which is weird because Bird is higher then Duncan on most all time list.

Its funny how you just randomly list titles... also your logic horribly fails. You better have Duncan above Bird or else you're a retard if he needs 5 to pass Duncan and 3-4 to pass Larry... sense?


You just realized yourself how stupid your logic/comment was, solely using the ring counter..

[navy]

Its funny how you just randomly list titles... also your logic horribly fails. You better have Duncan above Bird or else you're a retard if he needs 5 to pass Duncan and 3-4 to pass Larry... sense?


You just realized yourself how stupid your logic/comment was, solely using the ring counter..
...I already acknowledge the flaw of non objective criteria that is an all time list.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kareem is a no brainer.

But Lebron with one more ring is dead even with magic?


I think it's funny that they are using the ring argument and basically nothing else. Just a very simple way of ranking players that all Lebron fans use to mock.. Yet now Lebron fans are jumping all over it

:oldlol: You find that funny? I could dig up posts of yours here saying "rings are all that matter" on top they layed out multiple pieces of evidence why LeBron > Bird, and added context to "kobe's 5"

[ArbitraryWater]

...I already acknowledge the flaw of non objective criteria that is an all time list.

Its the flaw of your logic.

Who do you have all time ahead, Bird or Duncan?

[ArbitraryWater]

wait so if LeBron wins 3 rings and gets 3 FMVP's then he's on par with someone like Duncan who has 5 rings just because they tie in FMVP's?

Yet LeBron would have 3 rings RIGHT NOW and 2 FMVP's if he didn't choke his ass off in 2011.

This nigguh doesnt even know how many chips Duncan has :lol

[magnax1]

No. I'd still rather have bird. Much more useful halfcourt offensive player.

[navy]

Its the flaw of your logic.

Who do you have all time ahead, Bird or Duncan?
Neither. I dont keep a list.

[ArbitraryWater]

The thing that keeps me from thinking LeBron is on prime Duncan level is that LeBron needed a desperation 3 from Ray Allen to beat a team led by Duncan 10 years after his prime.

thats...... wierd perspective to look at it.

[magnax1]

There prime vs prime stats are extremely similar though so far.

[ArbitraryWater]

Neither. I dont keep a list.

By saying LeBron needs 5 titles to match Duncan, and only 3-4 to match Bird, you already made Duncan > Bird... Why would he need more titles to match Duncan, and Bird is better? :lol

Just tell me who the greater player is.

[ArbitraryWater]

There prime vs prime stats are extremely similar though so far.

And now consider defense...

[magnax1]

And now consider defense...
And then consider everything else.
Now you know why Bird is still better.

[navy]

By saying LeBron needs 5 titles to match Duncan, and only 3-4 to match Bird, you already made Duncan > Bird... Why would he need more titles to match Duncan, and Bird is better? :lol

Just tell me who the greater player is.
They dont play the same position. I couldnt tell you. Regardless, I was reffering to the fact that Lebron pretty much has passed Bird in every category statistically speaking. The same wont be for Duncan, so he needs more titles to make up the difference.

[ArbitraryWater]

And then consider everything else.
Now you know why Bird is still better.

So LeBron's better statistically, better scorer, better defender, better playmaker, similar passer, worse rebounder.. has more MVP's, will have more Titles and Finals MVP's...

NOWWWW consider everything else, and I know why Bird is better... Okay, whats left homie? shooting? :lol Gotcha

[TheMarkMadsen]

:oldlol: You find that funny? I could dig up posts of yours here saying "rings are all that matter" on top they layed out multiple pieces of evidence why LeBron > Bird, and added context to "kobe's 5"

Kobe in the 01 playoffs averaged 3+ more points per game than Lebron in 2013 playoffs, and .9 less than Lebron in 2012 something which you're always quick to call a GOAT playoff run was barely averaging a point more than Kobe during a run that "doesn't count" for Kobe

Kobe in 02 also averaged more points per game during the playoffs, more points per game during the finals, on 6% better shooting than Lebron in 2013... you love FG% right?

"Context"

[ArbitraryWater]

They dont play the same position. I couldnt tell you. Regardless, I was reffering to the fact that Lebron pretty much has passed Bird in every category statistically speaking. The same wont be for Duncan, so he needs more titles to make up the difference.

So what they dont play the same position... Just compare their careers.

So you were only talking statistically? Why do you use titles as measurement then?

Also I fail to see how Duncan is superior statistically...

[JohnFreeman]

I think he is better then Bird, Duncan is still better then LeBron though

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe in the 01 playoffs averaged 3+ more points per game than Lebron in 2013 playoffs, and .9 less than Lebron in 2012 something which you're always quick to call a GOAT playoff run was barely averaging a point more than Kobe during a run that "doesn't count" for Kobe

Kobe in 02 also averaged more points per game during the playoffs, more points per game during the finals, on 6% better shooting than Lebron in 2013... you love FG% right?

"Context"

I sure love me some Efficiency...

When comparing Scorers, you must always look at FG%.

All of the great scorers in the history of the game, (even outside shooters like Larry Bird and Reggie Miller) were able to shoot 50% or better in their prime.

Guys like Iverson and Kobe have never shot over 47% for an entire season. Iverson and Kobe are great, just not as great as some of the legends...

You must always keep in mind one's scoring efficiency and accurateness. Players who maximize positions are more effective in putting the ball in the basket.

Interestingly enough, scorers who score in the flow of the team game vs forcing the issue/shot, will mostly be the ones superior in the efficiency department.

Kobe's 2001 run is great. 2002 Kobe converting at 43% rate? Making 10 shots while missing 13? Anybody can fill that hole... However there won't be too many players able to average 25+ PPG on 50+%...

[TheMarkMadsen]

I sure love me some Efficiency...

When comparing Scorers, you must always look at FG%.

All of the great scorers in the history of the game, (even outside shooters like Larry Bird and Reggie Miller) were able to shoot 50% or better in their prime.

Guys like Iverson and Kobe have never shot over 47% for an entire season. Iverson and Kobe are great, just not as great as some of the legends...

You must always keep in mind one's scoring efficiency and accurateness. Players who maximize positions are more effective in putting the ball in the basket.

Interestingly enough, scorers who score in the flow of the team game vs forcing the issue/shot, will mostly be the ones superior in the efficiency department.

Kobe's 2001 run is great. 2002 Kobe converting at 43% rate? Making 10 shots while missing 13? Anybody can fill that hole... However there won't be too many players able to average 25+ PPG on 50+%...

all that fluff just to set yourself up for an ether..


However there won't be too many players able to average 25+ PPG on 50+%...

yup, and when it comes to the finals Lebron isn't one of them :roll:

But Kobe is

http://i.imgur.com/EWbqLmX.gif

[Deuce Bigalow]

So lets see..Bird has 3 championships without teaming up. Lebron never won one without teaming up. Bird went on a lottery team and made his team have the biggest turn around in NBA history, then wins a TITLE a year later in his second year. All without teaming up in his prime with a superstar and Bran is supposed to be better?

http://www.goodtimecharlieblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/BirdPimp2-400x242.jpg

[HoopsFanNumero1]

From page 4


sorry but this thread is reserved for non-retards

I respectfully ask all Kobe stans to leave this thread.

[JohnFreeman]

So lets see..Bird has 3 championships without teaming up. Lebron never won one without teaming up. Bird went on a lottery team and made his team have the biggest turn around in NBA history, then wins a TITLE a year later in his second year. All without teaming up in his prime with a superstar and Bran is supposed to be better?

http://www.goodtimecharlieblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/BirdPimp2-400x242.jpg
Why would Bird team up when he had those stacked Celtic teams?

[Kingwillball]

So lets see..Bird has 3 championships without teaming up. Lebron never won one without teaming up. Bird went on a lottery team and made his team have the biggest turn around in NBA history, then wins a TITLE a year later in his second year. All without teaming up in his prime with a superstar and Bran is supposed to be better?

http://www.goodtimecharlieblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/BirdPimp2-400x242.jpg

Um bird played on a top 3 team of all time that was super stacked more stacked than Miami he did not need to team up moron. If Clev put anything remotely close to what Boston and bird had he would of never left obviously.

[Warfan]

I agree with Bill...

[navy]

Bird's teams were more stacked then the Heat.

[ArbitraryWater]

all that fluff just to set yourself up for an ether..



yup, and when it comes to the finals Lebron isn't one of them :roll:

But Kobe is

http://i.imgur.com/EWbqLmX.gif


You sure heavily relying on that 02' series, kid.

Besides that Kobe has never even shot above 43%... :facepalm How do you live with all that bricklaying?

BUT; 4 GAME SAMPLE SIZE VS 2002 NETS!!!

[Warfan]

Bird's teams were more stacked then the Heat.

Yeah but he faced better competition overall too

[ArbitraryWater]

So lets see..Bird has 3 championships without teaming up. Lebron never won one without teaming up. Bird went on a lottery team and made his team have the biggest turn around in NBA history, then wins a TITLE a year later in his second year. All without teaming up in his prime with a superstar and Bran is supposed to be better?

http://www.goodtimecharlieblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/BirdPimp2-400x242.jpg

Look guys, now "teaming up" is Deuce's latest measuring stick :roll:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Non-teamed up rings:

Bird: 3
Bran: 0

/Boiled down

[bizil]

It comes down to Bron, Bird, and Duncan. All three have a great case. And u actually when u look at it, I think I would take Duncan as of now as the greatest forward ever. But if Bron can cap a three peat, that might be enough to shoot him up the chart as the greatest forward ever. His individual dominance is easily on Bird's and Duncan's level. Bron has basically played as many healthy years in the L as Bird AND has scored more career points than Bird. But Bird's mystique and the way he reshaped basketball in so many ways keeps him as still to this day arguably the GOAT forward.

[diamenz]

bird's team was more stacked - true, but that team did not come together in the bitch-made way that lebron and the heat did... and that counts for a lot when u measure a player for any goat status.