Where would you rank Tim Duncan all-time if he won a 5th Championship?

[Smook A.]

What do you guys think?

For me he'll be top 6-7. Easy

[TheMarkMadsen]

He's already top 6-8.

depends on his production in the playoffs/finals

[The-Legend-24]

Below LeBron.

[NumberSix]

The exact same as I currently rank him.

[Fazotronic]

its not just about rings. it depends how he plays.

[navy]

Same.

[Solefade]

depends...would he get fmvp or would parker?

[DMAVS41]

Depends how he plays of course.

If he goes 18/10/3 while playing great defense like he did last year and then plays great in the finals and they win?

I might move him up to 3rd all time for me. Currently I have him 4th. Really not sure...I'd have to think long and hard about it.

But damn...that longevity would be crazy...dude was ****ing first team all nba and elite back in 1998

And if he's great in the 2014 playoffs and wins a title? Jesus...shit is unreal

[BlackVVaves]

Depends on if he's the best, 1B player on a title run, or just a solid contributing big putting up 14 and 10.

[DMAVS41]

Depends on if he's the best, 1B player on a title run, or just a solid contributing big putting up 14 and 10.

Yea, but that is the problem I have with people assigning credit to Duncan.

If he were to go 14/10/3 and play his usual great defense...that would be most likely the most valuable thing the Spurs have.

It would depend on how Parker and Leonard play, but even at that Duncan might still be the most valuable asset on the team.

[SCdac]

Top-20...Weak TS%, always carried by the Spurs defense, crappy 3-point shooter for his position, never screamed enough after a dunk and not a good leader.

lol really though, only one direction for him to go but up

[DMAVS41]

Top-20...Weak TS%, always carried by the Spurs defense, crappy 3-point shooter for his position, never screamed enough after a dunk and not a good leader.

lol really though, only one direction for him to go but up

:banana:

[Rocketswin2013]

Depends on how he plays.

If he gets carried and loses his legs (LOL) then I'll probably leave him at 6-12

[Big#50]

THE GOAT. Right now I have...

Duncan/Shaq
MJ
Wilt
KAJ
Bird
Lebron
Kobe
Magic
Hakeem

[BuffaloBill]

#1

[Rocketswin2013]

Numbersix was right....:facepalm

Either people overrate him, or underrate him.

[the mesiah]

Rite now he is easily top 8, I would move him up top 6 IF he goes from the jump outplays dirk 1st round,then shuts down Howard 2nd round, Dominate Okc in WCF, and put that cherry on top beat miami in game 6 In the finals averaging 18/8/2-3 blocks to wrap up the fmvp..if he limping thru out, then maybe jump to 7 but would be hard to jump kobe.

[BlackVVaves]

Yea, but that is the problem I have with people assigning credit to Duncan.

If he were to go 14/10/3 and play his usual great defense...that would be most likely the most valuable thing the Spurs have.

It would depend on how Parker and Leonard play, but even at that Duncan might still be the most valuable asset on the team.

Very true. The numbers will have to be put into the context of impact.

Question: what were some determining factors for you ranking Duncan over Shaq?

[BlackVVaves]

THE GOAT. Right now I have...

Duncan/Shaq
MJ
Wilt
KAJ
Bird
Lebron
Kobe
Magic
Hakeem

Worse list I've ever seen, congrats :applause:

[Cold soul]

It depends on how he plays throughout the playoffs and Finals.

[ArbitraryWater]

I already got him past Bird at 7... Would most likely put him ahead of Shaq, and perhaps also Magic..

[Sarcastic]

Just like bricking that bunny shot last year that would have sealed the ring, didn't hurt his legacy at his old age, winning another should not boost his legacy, considering the team wins because of coaching than anything else.

[ArbitraryWater]

Just like bricking that bunny shot last year that would have sealed the ring, didn't hurt his legacy at his old age, winning another should not boost his legacy, considering the team wins because of coaching than anything else.

Yea thats also something to consider... some people only judge successes, others failures as well.. most look at success way more though. preference thing.

[r0drig0lac]

Top-20...Weak TS%, always carried by the Spurs defense, crappy 3-point shooter for his position, never screamed enough after a dunk and not a good leader.

lol really though, only one direction for him to go but up
:applause:

[rmt]

Just like bricking that bunny shot last year that would have sealed the ring, didn't hurt his legacy at his old age, winning another should not boost his legacy, considering the team wins because of coaching than anything else.

That bunny would have tied the game - not sealed the ring.

I disagree with winning another not boosting his legacy. No one expects a 38 year old to play the way he did last year.

Yeah, the COACH puts the ball in the basket and plays defense.

[AnaheimLakers24]

hes better than russel. below kareem

[T_L_P]

Just like bricking that bunny shot last year that would have sealed the ring, didn't hurt his legacy at his old age, winning another should not boost his legacy, considering the team wins because of coaching than anything else.

Pop since Duncan's decline: 0 rings, 1 Finals performance.

That Finals performance came when Duncan had a bounce-back season and legitimately became the best big man in the game in again.

Yeah, it's all coaching. :rolleyes:

[k0kakw0rld]

What do you guys think?

For me he'll be top 6-7. Easy
He will be top 2

1. Jordan

2. Duncan

The rest

[DMAVS41]

Very true. The numbers will have to be put into the context of impact.

Question: what were some determining factors for you ranking Duncan over Shaq?

Just mostly personal preference and things like being a better teammate, more coachable, less ego...stuff like that.

Defense is big for me on this one as well...I still don't think Duncan gets enough credit for his defense.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Since he'll probably average in the neighborhood of 15/10, he stays in the 7-9 range. After all, you don't see anyone touting Kareem's 1988 ring when they flash his GOAT credentials.

[DFish24]

Tied with Kobe.

[BlackVVaves]

Just mostly personal preference and things like being a better teammate, more coachable, less ego...stuff like that.

Defense is big for me on this one as well...I still don't think Duncan gets enough credit for his defense.

I agree, Duncan doesn't get the recognition throughout the basketball community he deserves for his defensive prowess. He has the unlucky fortune of playing while Ben Wallace was performing his best Russell impressing defensively, and taking a couple of DPOYs Duncan would have otherwise received (I think playing with a perimeter defender like Bowen and interior defender like Robinson earlier on also dissuaded voters. Maybe they had a point, but Duncan performing as spectacularly as he did defensively last year should calm any doubts about his presence).

But, the question is: was his elite defensive contributions enough to fill the gap between he and Shaq's utterly dominant offensive production? Also, was it enough to moderate the difference between Shaq's peak and Duncan's peak?

It's a question I've been asking myself lately.

[T_L_P]

Tied with Kobe.

How so, exactly, when they'd be tied for rings but Duncan would have won more as the best player on his team (3 Finals MVPs), and he has more regular season MVPs (not something I particularly care about), and superior longevity, and more intangibles?

Really, the ring argument is one of the few Kobe has over Duncan. Peak vs. peak, Duncan clearly wins.

[J Shuttlesworth]

How so, exactly, when they'd be tied for rings but Duncan would have won more as the best player on his team (3 Finals MVPs), and he has more regular season MVPs (not something I particularly care about), and superior longevity, and more intangibles?

Really, the ring argument is one of the few Kobe has over Duncan. Peak vs. peak, Duncan clearly wins.
BUT EYE TEST BRO.

No but I agree. Duncan will retire w/ equal rings (if he wins) and more FMVPs/MVPs than Kobe. Not to mention his squads contend year after year (credit to pop/manu/tp for that too though)

[SCdac]

I agree, Duncan doesn't get the recognition throughout the basketball community he deserves for his defensive prowess. He has the unlucky fortune of playing while Ben Wallace was performing his best Russell impressing defensively, and taking a couple of DPOYs Duncan would have otherwise received (I think playing with a perimeter defender like Bowen and interior defender like Robinson earlier on also dissuaded voters. Maybe they had a point, but Duncan performing as spectacularly as he did defensively last year should calm any doubts about his presence).

But, the question is: was his elite defensive contributions enough to fill the gap between he and Shaq's utterly dominant offensive production? Also, was it enough to moderate the difference between Shaq's peak and Duncan's peak?

It's a question I've been asking myself lately.

Agreed that Shaq was offensively dominant, yet at the time Duncan's offense was also elite. 22 year old Duncan in his first playoff series ever against Shaq and the Lakers averaged 29 ppg (.51 FG% / 81 FT%). Beat Shaq again in 03 while scoring 37 points in the elimination game which ended the three-peat Lakers ... I think Shaq was more dominant offensively too, particularly in his MVP years, he was like a bulldozer in every sense... but Duncan went off against him in his own right. Shaq really respects TD, partly because Duncan never backed down. Also, Shaq bounced around alot and played with Penny, Kobe, Wade, Nash/Amare, Lebron, and KG. If only Duncan had those teammates.

[DMAVS41]

I agree, Duncan doesn't get the recognition throughout the basketball community he deserves for his defensive prowess. He has the unlucky fortune of playing while Ben Wallace was performing his best Russell impressing defensively, and taking a couple of DPOYs Duncan would have otherwise received (I think playing with a perimeter defender like Bowen and interior defender like Robinson earlier on also dissuaded voters. Maybe they had a point, but Duncan performing as spectacularly as he did defensively last year should calm any doubts about his presence).

But, the question is: was his elite defensive contributions enough to fill the gap between he and Shaq's utterly dominant offensive production? Also, was it enough to moderate the difference between Shaq's peak and Duncan's peak?

It's a question I've been asking myself lately.

Those are good questions...not for sure answer.

But this is kind of my quick take;

Duncan was a better teammate and leader. He had virtually no ego. He also played his ass off defensively and was a far better defender year in year out.

Also, I can't imagine the kind of success Duncan has getting to play with Kobe for 5 years once Kobe got good...then followed up by two years of prime Wade.

Not to mention some of the talent on those Magic teams.

Simply put...I think Duncan wins more with Shaq's help...at least the same...and I think Shaq wins less with Duncan's help.

That's kind of how I answer it.

[Fawker]

best Forward of ALL TIME with 4

[Mr. Jabbar]

where would he rank if they lose in the 1st round is the better question

[houston]

same

[Big#50]

Duncan would have won a ring with Kobe every season from 2000-2013. Really.

[Deuce Bigalow]

He'd get close to Kobe.

[Inferno]

Since he'll probably average in the neighborhood of 15/10, he stays in the 7-9 range. After all, you don't see anyone touting Kareem's 1988 ring when they flash his GOAT credentials.

I think he put up something like 18/10 in the Finals last year. I think he can pull something like that off again

[HOoopCityJones]

He'd be number 8, behind Kobe.

[Harison]

If Spurs win with Tim going 20/10, I would have him in Top7, passing Shaq and Hakeem.

[T_L_P]

I already have Tim at #4, so winning another wouldn't put him ahead of Kareem, but it would cement his position (I have him just ahead of Shaq).

[T_L_P]

If Spurs win with Tim going 20/10, I would have him in Top7, passing Shaq and Hakeem.

Why do you have Shaq ahead of Tim currently?

[annbafan]

rings are not everything.

[HOoopCityJones]

LOL, Tim Duncan is not # 4 all time.

If Duncan is at 4 Shaq is at 2 and Kobe follows directly behind him.

[Deuce Bigalow]

"Top 4"
"Ahead of Kareem if he wins"

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img716/5576/mv6.gif

[scm5]

MJ
Kareem
Duncan

That would be my Top 3 if Duncan wins it this season (while performing like a FMVP)

[Carbine]

Originally Posted by ThePhantomCreep
Since he'll probably average in the neighborhood of 15/10, he stays in the 7-9 range. After all, you don't see anyone touting Kareem's 1988 ring when they flash his GOAT credentials.

Yes you do. When people rank Kareem they say he has 6 titles.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that 1988 title is being included when anyone says Kareem has 6 titles.

[Milbuck]

Would he be ahead of Bird and Magic with a 5th ring?

[DMAVS41]

LOL, Tim Duncan is not # 4 all time.

If Duncan is at 4 Shaq is at 2 and Kobe follows directly behind him.

Why not?

He's had a very Kareem type career...Duncan has just done it in SA and not LA. He didn't have the luxury of playing with Magic either.

It's all debatable in that range.

You really going to definitively say Shaq deserves to be ranked higher than Duncan? Why?

I actually think Duncan is just the overall better player start to finish comparing their careers...and Duncan has a better resume as well imo.

Again, I'm not gonna argue with someone putting Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq over Duncan...or Bird for that matter...I just disagree.

I would argue about Kobe though. I just don't see any argument. Worse peak, worse longevity, worse teammate, worse intangibles, worse resume, off court problems, bigger ego, less durable, and needed more help to win...

It's pretty clearly Duncan at this point...

[ThePhantomCreep]

I already have Tim at #4, so winning another wouldn't put him ahead of Kareem, but it would cement his position (I have him just ahead of Shaq).

Ridiculous. What possible reasoning could you have for putting Duncan, who hasn't seen a 20/10 season since the early days of George W Bush's second term, in the top 4 of greatest players to ever live?

[ThePhantomCreep]

Why not?

He's had a very Kareem type career...Duncan has just done it in SA and not LA. He didn't have the luxury of playing with Magic either.

It's all debatable in that range.

You really going to definitively say Shaq deserves to be ranked higher than Duncan? Why?

I actually think Duncan is just the overall better player start to finish comparing their careers...and Duncan has a better resume as well imo.

Again, I'm not gonna argue with someone putting Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq over Duncan...or Bird for that matter...I just disagree.

I would argue about Kobe though. I just don't see any argument. Worse peak, worse longevity, worse teammate, worse intangibles, worse resume, off court problems, bigger ego, less durable, and needed more help to win...

It's pretty clearly Duncan at this point...

Kobe has Duncan beat on longevity easily. Came into the league one year earilier and was the better individual player from 2006 until his tore his Achilles tendon. He wasn't that much worse than Duncan during the early 2000's either.

Duncan has won with mostly stacked teams, and this year's squad is ridiculously loaded. 2003, when he won with minimal talent, was an outlier year.

[DMAVS41]

Ridiculous. What possible reasoning could you have for putting Duncan, who hasn't seen a 20/10 season since the early days of George W Bush's second term, in the top 4 of greatest players to ever live?

Could you list your top 10.

In some order it will be;

MJ
Russell
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem

That is usually the top 10.

So lets say you have MJ and Russell top 2....obviously I'll wait for you to respond, but...

It seems to me that you then have Magic, Bird, Kareem, Shaq, and Wilt left...

Could I see someone ranking all of those guys over Duncan? Sure, but why not Duncan? The dude was 1st team all nba in 98...and then first team all nba in 2013...i dont' care much about that honor as i do just how well he played that far apart.

I think a lot of people don't realize that Duncan came into the league elite. He was already one of the best players. And his individual prime, or whatever you want to call it...lasted from day 1 until through the 09 season. He saw a slight dip after that...and he's slowly declined since, but it's been a slight decline and he's been an elite defender all the way through...

It's a remarkable career with a consistency and durability very few have matched.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe has Duncan beat on longevity easily. Came into the league one year earilier and was the better individual player from 2006 until his tore his Achilles tendon. He wasn't that much worse than Duncan during the early 2000's either.

Duncan has won with mostly stacked teams, and this year's squad is ridiculously loaded. 2003, when he won with minimal talent, was an outlier year.

Not even close on longevity at this point really.

Kobe wasn't a relevant player in the league until his 3rd or 4th year.

Duncan was elite from day 1.

Kobe has missed more games due to injury and saw a year in his prime lost due to a down year in 05 as well.

Duncan from 98 through 09 was better than any 12 year stretch of Kobe's career.

And now that Kobe has missed two playoffs in a row and a full season...the longevity edge is clearly in favor of Duncan now.

From 98 to present;

Duncan has played 1,254 games and started 1,252 games
Kobe has played 1,174 games and started 1,091 games

Duncan has played a full season of games more than Kobe during that time. And has started two full seasons more than Kobe has.

ROFL...it's not even comparable at this point.

Kobe has played with far more stacked teams as well.

I personally don't care much about the regular season...so lets look at the playoffs;

98 to present

Duncan;

211 games...211 games started

22/12/3 55% TS and all time great interior defense 109 ortg and 98 drtg


Kobe;

211 games...200 games started

26/5/5 54% TS 110 ortg 106 drtg


Now, there is way more than just those numbers, but...why has Kobe had better longevity again?

He's played less games overall...started way less games overall. They've played the exact same amount of playoff games and Duncan has performed better in those games...despite having to carry a bigger burden in his prime.

The Spurs have consistently performed better in the regular season as well. Only season of Duncan's career he didn't win 50 games was the 99 lockout year...they went 37-13.

They've now won 50 or more 15 straight seasons...with Duncan anchoring an elite defense in like all but 2 of them.

[BlackVVaves]

Could you list your top 10.

In some order it will be;

MJ
Russell
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem

That is usually the top 10.

So lets say you have MJ and Russell top 2....obviously I'll wait for you to respond, but...

It seems to me that you then have Magic, Bird, Kareem, Shaq, and Wilt left...

Could I see someone ranking all of those guys over Duncan? Sure, but why not Duncan? The dude was 1st team all nba in 98...and then first team all nba in 2013...i dont' care much about that honor as i do just how well he played that far apart.

I think a lot of people don't realize that Duncan came into the league elite. He was already one of the best players. And his individual prime, or whatever you want to call it...lasted from day 1 until through the 09 season. He saw a slight dip after that...and he's slowly declined since, but it's been a slight decline and he's been an elite defender all the way through...

It's a remarkable career with a consistency and durability very few have matched.

Presently, mine is:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Bill
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt/Shaq
7. Shaq/Wilt/Duncan
8. Duncan/Wilt
9. Kobe
10. LeBron
11. Hakeem

[DMAVS41]

Presently, mine is:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Bill
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt/Shaq
7. Shaq/Wilt/Duncan
8. Duncan/Wilt
9. Kobe
10. LeBron
11. Hakeem


I like that...

[ThePhantomCreep]

Not even close on longevity at this point really.

Kobe wasn't a relevant player in the league until his 3rd or 4th year.

Duncan was elite from day 1.

Kobe has missed more games due to injury and saw a year in his prime lost due to a down year in 05 as well.

Duncan from 98 through 09 was better than any 12 year stretch of Kobe's career.

And now that Kobe has missed two playoffs in a row and a full season...the longevity edge is clearly in favor of Duncan now.

From 98 to present;

Duncan has played 1,254 games and started 1,252 games
Kobe has played 1,174 games and started 1,091 games

ROFL...it's not even comparable at this point.

Kobe has played with far more stacked teams as well.

Um no, he hasn't. The three-peat teams are some of the most top-heavy champions of all-time, and the Kobe/Pau teams weren't as deep and talented as the current Spurs bunch.

Kobe has played 2,000 more minutes for his career, despite the fact that he missed virtually all of this season. This is why Kobe was clearly better from 2006-2013.

Kobe was a legit All-NBA player for 15 straight years, 1st team-type quality for 13. Duncan hasn't put together a legit All-NBA season 1st team season since 2010, when he averaged 18/10. You can hang your hat on him making first team last year, but that says more about the weakness of the center position than it does about Duncan's dominant play. 17/10 isn't an 1st team All-NBA caliber season and you know it.

[20Four]

Below LeBron.
Your a fvcking idiot....sign off ISH for good :mad: :mad:

[BlackVVaves]

DMavs,

I wouldn't say it isn't even close in regards to longevity as it concerns Duncan and Kobe.

I'd say, Duncan's sudden resurgence (especially defensively) these last two years, coupled with Kobe's injuries, makes their longevity now about equal, maybe slightly favoring Duncan considering he came onto the scene dominating, whereas two or three years ago it was considerably in Kobe's favor.

Also, in terms of longevity, it's interesting to note that as Kobe declined, his offense remained the same (not literally but, you know what I mean) but his defense sharply fell, while (with this recent resurgence) Duncan's decline is highlighted with a more steep fall in offense, while his defense has remained the same (again, not to the extent that it was before, but you know what I mean).

[secund2nun]

He is already top 5 for me.

[DMAVS41]

DMavs,

I wouldn't say it isn't even close in regards to longevity as it concerns Duncan and Kobe.

I'd say, Duncan's sudden resurgence (especially defensively) these last two years, coupled with Kobe's injuries, makes their longevity now about equal, maybe slightly favoring Duncan considering he came onto the scene dominating, whereas two or three years ago it was considerably in Kobe's favor.

Also, in terms of longevity, it's interesting to note that as Kobe declined, his offense remained the same (not literally but, you know what I mean) but his defense sharply fell, while (with this recent resurgence) Duncan's decline is highlighted with a more steep fall in offense, while his defense has remained the same (again, not to the extent that it was before, but you know what I mean).

I really don't get how it's close.

Duncan was elite from the jump.

And from 98 to present...he's played 80 more games...and started 160 more games.

His teams have been more consistent. He's been more durable.

He was better at his best.

His best 10 to 12 years trump Kobe's...

I really don't see the argument now. It was close heading into the last season...but now it just really isn't.

Don't get me wrong, Kobe has had great longevity to date, but not Duncan level. I think Duncan's overall play from the 2010 season to present is really under-rated as well. People make too big a deal out of the 11 season for Duncan...and again, it's not like Kobe was busting people that year either.

I honestly just think this kind of speaks to how under-rated a guy like Duncan still is by most people here. His defense/rebounding is worth noting...and talking about at length...he doesn't get enough credit for continuing to play at the level he has.

You saw this last year with Kobe's season...and I fell for it a bit as well. Kobe wasn't better than Duncan last year. That is the problem I think most have a hard time understanding...

[secund2nun]

I really don't get how it's close.

Duncan was elite from the jump.

And from 98 to present...he's played 80 more games...and started 160 more games.

His teams have been more consistent. He's been more durable.

He was better at his best.

His best 10 to 12 years trump Kobe's...

I really don't see the argument now. It was close heading into the last season...but now it just really isn't.

There was never an argument. Duncan is miles ahead of Kobe.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Could you list your top 10.

In some order it will be;

MJ
Russell
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem

That is usually the top 10.

So lets say you have MJ and Russell top 2....obviously I'll wait for you to respond, but...

It seems to me that you then have Magic, Bird, Kareem, Shaq, and Wilt left...

Could I see someone ranking all of those guys over Duncan? Sure, but why not Duncan? The dude was 1st team all nba in 98...and then first team all nba in 2013...i dont' care much about that honor as i do just how well he played that far apart.

I think a lot of people don't realize that Duncan came into the league elite. He was already one of the best players. And his individual prime, or whatever you want to call it...lasted from day 1 until through the 09 season. He saw a slight dip after that...and he's slowly declined since, but it's been a slight decline and he's been an elite defender all the way through...

It's a remarkable career with a consistency and durability very few have matched.

You need a ridiculously high peak to be considered top 4, and Duncan doesn't have it. The only player from that list he has a case for in peak is Kobe, a player who gets notoriously ragged on for that. And even this is debatable--Kobe was a 30/5/5 player at his best and had a three-year postseason run (2008-2010) Duncan never matched.

Does Duncan have a higher peak than Wilt? Magic? Bird? Russell? Shaq, whose rookie numbers compare with peak Duncan's? The answer is no.

Duncan has solid longevity, but even this is overstated. He's basically a 15-16/10 player since 2010. Hardly elite. Malone's numbers at 35-38 years of age blow those clean out of the water. Even Barkley, never noted for his longevity, was a 16/12/5 player at 36.

Duncan is a bottom half top 10 player of all-time, but top 4 is a stretch.

[Shade8780]

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Wilt
7. Duncan

[BlackVVaves]

I really don't get how it's close.

Duncan was elite from the jump.

And from 98 to present...he's played 80 more games...and started 160 more games.

His teams have been more consistent. He's been more durable.

He was better at his best.

His best 10 to 12 years trump Kobe's...

I really don't see the argument now. It was close heading into the last season...but now it just really isn't.

Idk, I think it's close. Duncan's decline after 2008, 2009 was pretty steep. Those playoff losses during his decline, especially the Memphis upset, also contribute to my perspective in terms of how bad his decline was.

I agree though, I'd give the edge to Duncan now seeing how the last two years have gone, and adding that to his productivity straight out of Wake Forest. But I'm just of the opinion that its close; we probably differ because you thought there was no gap between the two before last season in terms of longevity, whole I had Kobe ahead in that category by a bit.

But, maybe I was a prisoner of the moment; the recency of Duncan's decline alongside Kobe's return to the champion's table certainly affected my perception.

[TaLvsCuaL]

I don't like ranks but to me He is already one of the best players of all time.

[ThePhantomCreep]

I really don't get how it's close.

Duncan was elite from the jump.

And from 98 to present...he's played 80 more games...and started 160 more games.

His teams have been more consistent. He's been more durable.

He was better at his best.

His best 10 to 12 years trump Kobe's...

I really don't see the argument now. It was close heading into the last season...but now it just really isn't.

Don't get me wrong, Kobe has had great longevity to date, but not Duncan level. I think Duncan's overall play from the 2010 season to present is really under-rated as well. People make too big a deal out of the 11 season for Duncan...and again, it's not like Kobe was busting people that year either.

I honestly just think this kind of speaks to how under-rated a guy like Duncan still is by most people here. His defense/rebounding is worth noting...and talking about at length...he doesn't get enough credit for continuing to play at the level he has.

You saw this last year with Kobe's season...and I fell for it a bit as well. Kobe wasn't better than Duncan last year. That is the problem I think most have a hard time understanding...

Get real. Kobe had a 27/6/6 season. Duncan, who missed 16 games and played just 30 mpg, averaged 15/10. You must have some serious bias to think Duncan was better.

Kobe from 2000-2012 can easily go toe-to-toe with Duncan's 12 best. Don't even kid yourself.

[BlackVVaves]

You need a ridiculously high peak to be considered top 4, and Duncan doesn't have it. The only player he has a case for in peak is Kobe, a player who gets notoriously. And even this is debatable--Kobe was a 30/5/5 player at his best and had a three-run postseason run (2008-2010) Duncan never matched.

Does Duncan have a higher peak than Wilt? Magic? Bird? Russell? Shaq, whose rookie numbers compare with peak Duncan's? The answer is no.

Duncan has solid longevity, but even this is overstated. He's basically a 15-16/10 player since 2010. Hardly elite. Malone's numbers at 35-38 years of age blow those clean out of the water. Even Barkley, never noted for his longevity, was a 16/12/5 player at 36.

Duncan is a bottom half top 10 player of all-time, but top 4 is a stretch.

While I agree Duncan's peak doesn't match MJ, Kareem, Bird, or Shaq, I encourage you to revisit Duncan's seasons from 2001-2002 to 2002-2003 when comparing to Magic and Russell's.

[BlackVVaves]

Get real. Kobe had a 27/6/6 season. Duncan, who missed 16 games and played just 30 mpg, averaged 15/10. You must have some serious bias to think Duncan was better.

Kobe from 2001-2012 can easily go toe-to-toe with Duncan's 12 best. Don't even kid yourself.

In reference to last year...

While I agree Kobe was better (top 5) last year, I wonder how much emphasis you place on defense?

Last year was probably Kobe's worse defensive year besides 2006-2007, while Duncan carried the same defensive impact of Gasol and Noah, and thus why he was a serious candidate for DPOY.

Also:

2003 Duncan > 2006 Kobe (which I'm assuming you would consider his peak?)

If not, 2003 Duncan > 2008 Kobe

[MavsSuperFan]

Depending on how he plays in the playoffs.

If he has a Dirk 2011 like playoff run, I would move him into my top 5.

Currently
MJ
KAJ
Shaq
Bird
Magic

Duncan would bump Bird and Magic down.

IF he just plays really well he stays at 6-8 for me.

[ThePhantomCreep]

While I agree Duncan's peak doesn't match MJ, Kareem, Bird, or Shaq, I encourage you to revisit Duncan's seasons from 2001-2002 to 2002-2003 when comparing to Magic and Russell's.

Magic's problem is his best seasons were not consecutive, but they were superior to Duncan's.

He averaged 23/8/13 on a 62.5 TS % in 1989, and that isn't even considered his best season. That 62.5% was nearly five points higher than Duncan's 2003 season. Even taking defense into account, Duncan's 23/13 doesn't match up. 25/13 was better, but compared to 1987 and 1989? If you stretch it out to their best four seasons Magic wins even more clearly. He was simply a better player.

[DMAVS41]

Get real. Kobe had a 27/6/6 season. Duncan, who missed 16 games and played just 30 mpg, averaged 15/10. You must have some serious bias to think Duncan was better.

Kobe from 2000-2012 can easily go toe-to-toe with Duncan's 12 best. Don't even kid yourself.

Get real? Kobe was a joke defensively and he got hurt. He missed the playoffs...while Duncan is leading his team with elite interior defense and putting up 18/10/3 in a finals run.

LOL...don't kid yourself...

[DMAVS41]

Idk, I think it's close. Duncan's decline after 2008, 2009 was pretty steep. Those playoff losses during his decline, especially the Memphis upset, also contribute to my perspective in terms of how bad his decline was.

I agree though, I'd give the edge to Duncan now seeing how the last two years have gone, and adding that to his productivity straight out of Wake Forest. But I'm just of the opinion that its close; we probably differ because you thought there was no gap between the two before last season in terms of longevity, whole I had Kobe ahead in that category by a bit.

But, maybe I was a prisoner of the moment; the recency of Duncan's decline alongside Kobe's return to the champion's table certainly affected my perception.


How was Duncan's decline from 09 to 10 steep? He went from 19/11/4 to 18/10/3...

He had a sharp down year in 11, but again...so did Kobe in the playoffs at least.

Also, the Spurs suffered a lot of bad luck post 2007 in the playoffs. Manu was hurt in the WCF in 08. He missed the entire 09 playoffs. Manu was hurt again in 11 when they got upset. In 12 they made the WCF and saw a pretty fluke oriented game 5 from Ibaka and Perkins essentially end the series. And we all know what happened last year.

So where is the steep decline? It seems it's just in 11. It certainly wasn't in 10 like you claimed.

And then in 12, Duncan was back to putting up 17/10/3 iirc and back to the conference finals.

So I'd like to know the steep decline....he's been roughly an 18/10/3 playoff player from 10 through 13. That is pretty damn solid and absolutely not a steep decline overall...his defense has been really good over that time as well.

Now, of course he has declined, but so has Kobe over that time as well...and all this shows is that we get too caught up in the guy out there not playing defense just gunning for his ppg.

Also, did Kobe not get upset in 11 as a big favorite? Did you forget that?

[Yankstar]

Top 6-7 above Hakeem and Shaq :applause:

[ThePhantomCreep]

Get real? Kobe was a joke defensively and he got hurt. He missed the playoffs...while Duncan is leading his team with elite interior defense and putting up 18/10/3 in a finals run.

LOL...don't kid yourself...

Does this mean 2000 Kobe was automatically better than 2000 Duncan, who got hurt that year and missed the playoffs? Probably not, eh?

Great defense doesn't negate Duncan's hardly spectacular numbers, nor do they trump 27/6/6 on a far higher TS%.

[ThePhantomCreep]

How was Duncan's decline from 09 to 10 steep? He went from 19/11/4 to 18/10/3...

He had a sharp down year in 11, but again...so did Kobe in the playoffs at least.

Also, the Spurs suffered a lot of bad luck post 2007 in the playoffs. Manu was hurt in the WCF in 08. He missed the entire 09 playoffs. Manu was hurt again in 11 when they got upset. In 12 they made the WCF and saw a pretty fluke oriented game 5 from Ibaka and Perkins essentially end the series. And we all know what happened last year.

So where is the steep decline? It seems it's just in 11. It certainly wasn't in 10 like you claimed.

And then in 12, Duncan was back to putting up 17/10/3 iirc and back to the conference finals.

So I'd like to know the steep decline....he's been roughly an 18/10/3 playoff player from 10 through 13. That is pretty damn solid and absolutely not a steep decline overall...his defense has been really good over that time as well.

Now, of course he has declined, but so has Kobe over that time as well...and all this shows is that we get too caught up in the guy out there not playing defense just gunning for his ppg.

Also, did Kobe not get upset in 11 as a big favorite? Did you forget that?

Wow really? You're going to talk about upsets in 2011? Kobe's team lost to the eventual champions. Who did Duncan's Spurs lose to and what seed were they?

You make a ton of injury excuses for the Spurs flameouts, but don't mention that Kobe was on virtually one knee in 2011?! Ok.

There's virtually no argument for Duncan being better than Kobe after the 2004-2005 season. This season excluded, for obvious reasons.

[Carbine]

Magic's problem is his best seasons were not consecutive, but they were superior to Duncan's.

He averaged 23/8/13 on a 62.5 TS % in 1989, and that isn't even considered his best season. That 62.5% was nearly five points higher than Duncan's 2003 season. Even taking defense into account, Duncan's 23/13 doesn't match up. 25/13 was better, but compared to 1987 and 1989? If you stretch it out to their best four seasons Magic wins even more clearly. He was simply a better player.

He also played in a system and era where per game stats were inflated compared to the early 00's, which was probably the slowest era of all-time.

In Magic's games the teams shot 14683 times that year.

Duncan's games the teams shot 13000 times in 2003.

That's over 20 shots more being taken a game. That's a pretty significant amount and leads to more chances for points/assits/rebounds/steals/etc etc.

Being a legit anchor on defense is hard to put a value on as well. Hbbert puts up 11/6.5 with little to no passing or playmaking ability but his impact is far more valuable that those numbers suggest because he's a legit anchor (I'd argue prime Duncan is a better anchor)

Also, regular season stats are great and all.....but the playoffs are what matters. That's when your best is needed.

Duncan doing 25/15.5 with 5.3 assists and 3.3 blocks on 57 TS% while being a true definition of a defensive anchor at his peak winning a title

vs.

Magic did 22/12.2 with 7.7 rebounds on 61 TS% in his peak in a higher paced era....Tim scored more, more than doubled Magics rebounding....while Magic had 7 more assists.

Does 7 more assists and 4 TS% offset 3 less points, almost 8 less rebounds and being a true anchor? Even if you used stats as a be all-end all argument, theirs not much too favor Magic here.

[D.J.]

My top 10 is:


Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Magic
Russell
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
LeBron/Kobe/Jerry West


I have Duncan at 9th and to me, Shaq and Hakeem are interchangable. Even with another ring and Finals MVP, I still don't have him jumping either Shaq or Hakeem.

[DMAVS41]

Does this mean 2000 Kobe was automatically better than 2000 Duncan, who got hurt that year and missed the playoffs? Probably not, eh?

Great defense doesn't negate Duncan's hardly spectacular numbers, nor do they trump 27/6/6 on a far higher TS%.

Yea, they really do...Kobe's numbers are so inflated. He pushed his body to the limits to get those numbers...cared more about the numbers than the wins...and he wore down and missed the playoffs.

You are making my point for me. Duncan's year is so under-rated...and his career is as well.

I'm still waiting for you to respond to my above post about how from 98 to present Duncan has played 80 more regular season games...started 160 more regular season games...and played the same amount of playoff games.

He's done that and he's been more consistently good and won with less. His teams have been better year in year out as well.

There is no argument for Kobe's longevity here. That went away last playoffs with the achilles...and then this year missing an entire year.

You factor that in, being less durable, carrying less of a burden, less consistency individually and team...missing the playoffs in his prime...

Come on now...people just don't remember how good Duncan and the Spurs still were post 07. They made the conference finals in 08. Made the conference finals in 12. Made the finals in 13.

Jesus...you people act like they didn't do anything of note for 10 years or something.

[BlackVVaves]

How was Duncan's decline from 09 to 10 steep? He went from 19/11/4 to 18/10/3...

He had a sharp down year in 11, but again...so did Kobe in the playoffs at least.

Also, the Spurs suffered a lot of bad luck post 2007 in the playoffs. Manu was hurt in the WCF in 08. He missed the entire 09 playoffs. Manu was hurt again in 11 when they got upset. In 12 they made the WCF and saw a pretty fluke oriented game 5 from Ibaka and Perkins essentially end the series. And we all know what happened last year.

So where is the steep decline? It seems it's just in 11. It certainly wasn't in 10 like you claimed.

And then in 12, Duncan was back to putting up 17/10/3 iirc and back to the conference finals.

So I'd like to know the steep decline....he's been roughly an 18/10/3 playoff player from 10 through 13. That is pretty damn solid and absolutely not a steep decline overall...his defense has been really good over that time as well.

Now, of course he has declined, but so has Kobe over that time as well...and all this shows is that we get too caught up in the guy out there not playing defense just gunning for his ppg.

Also, did Kobe not get upset in 11 as a big favorite? Did you forget that?

Shit, I was way off base with Duncan's numbers. Wouldn't call that decline steep, until like 2011. Still experienced a decline in numbers from his title years but, not a sharp drop off.

Wouldn't place as much emphasis on that particular upset of Kobe's only because of his severe ailment he was playing through.

In any case, I rank Duncan over Kobe anyway so :pimp:

[BlackVVaves]

So DMavs, you saying Duncan was better than Kobe last year?

[DMAVS41]

So DMavs, you saying Duncan was better than Kobe last year?

Yes. Duncan was first team all nba and first team all defense...and he deserved both.

He had a 107 ortg and a 95 drtg. He was 4th in the league in rapm at 7.3.

Kobe had a 112 ortg and a 107 drtg. He was nowhere near the top of rapm at 3.2.

I wouldn't go nuts and say Duncan's regular season was for sure better, but it was close...and you have to give the tie breaker to the guy going for 18/10/3 in the playoffs while playing elite defense on a finals run....while the other guy is sitting at home.

Imagine if duncan had played 5 more minutes per game and jacked it up like Kobe...his numbers would be better for sure, but he would have worn down and possibly hurt himself as well. that supposed to make him a better player? if he was on a fringe playoff team and played 36 mpg and shot a lot more and neglected his defense and rested there and just cared about scoring and rebounding.

Shit...Duncan could easily give you 24/13/4 if he gunned for stats like that and stopped playing defense altogether. But he'd be a much worse player.

Kobe was great last year, it's not abut hating on Kobe, it's about Duncan having an amazing year start to finish.

[BlackVVaves]

Yes. Duncan was first team all nba and first team all defense...and he deserved both.

He had a 107 ortg and a 95 drtg. He was 4th in the league in rapm at 7.3.

Kobe had a 112 ortg and a 107 drtg. He was nowhere near the top of rapm at 3.2.

I wouldn't go nuts and say Duncan's regular season was for sure better, but it was close...and you have to give the tie breaker to the guy going for 18/10/3 in the playoffs while playing elite defense on a finals run.

Kobe was great last year, it's not abut hating on Kobe, it's about Duncan having an amazing year start to finish.

No doubt. Duncan had a really impactful year, and very productive post-season. Probably wins another FMVP if they win in Game 6.

Who was in your top 10 last season, if you can remember? Regular season specific I should probably add.

[DMAVS41]

No doubt. Duncan had a really impactful year, and very productive post-season. Probably wins another FMVP if they win in Game 6.

Who was in your top 10 last season, if you can remember? Regular season specific I should probably add.

I don't know...

something like Lebron/Durant/Kobe/Duncan/Paul/Wade...I don't know i'd have to think about it more. Maybe Marc Gasol and Curry or something...Melo maybe...

Feel like I'm forgetting someone...honestly, Dwight Howard might have still been a top 10 player in the regular season last year. It might shock some to hear that, but he was way better than people give him credit for last season. I'm not sure there are 10 other guys in the league I would take over him. Maybe, but it's close.

[BlackVVaves]

I don't know...

something like Lebron/Durant/Kobe/Duncan/Paul/Wade...I don't know i'd have to think about it more. Maybe Marc Gasol and Curry or something...Melo maybe...

Feel like I'm forgetting someone...honestly, Dwight Howard might have still been a top 10 player in the regular season last year. It might shock some to hear that, but he was way better than people give him credit for last season. I'm not sure there are 10 other guys in the league I would take over him. Maybe, but it's close.

Westbrook? Tony Parker was getting MVP votes.

Edit:

Think Bron/KD/Paul/Kobe/Westbrook/Wade/Parker/Duncan/Dwight/Melo would be my Top 10 in no particular order. Harden and Curry get honorable mentions.

Actually. Harden might have been in my top 10 last year. Idk who in that aforementioned list I'd put him over though.

[DMAVS41]

Westbrook? Tony Parker was getting MVP votes.

Well, I would for sure have WB in my top 10 last year. You wouldn't????


Yea, Parker could be in there for sure.

[ThePhantomCreep]

He also played in a system and era where per game stats were inflated compared to the early 00's, which was probably the slowest era of all-time.

In Magic's games the teams shot 14683 times that year.

Duncan's games the teams shot 13000 times in 2003.

That's over 20 shots more being taken a game. That's a pretty significant amount and leads to more chances for points/assits/rebounds/steals/etc etc.

Being a legit anchor on defense is hard to put a value on as well. Hbbert puts up 11/6.5 with little to no passing or playmaking ability but his impact is far more valuable that those numbers suggest because he's a legit anchor (I'd argue prime Duncan is a better anchor)

Also, regular season stats are great and all.....but the playoffs are what matters. That's when your best is needed.

Duncan doing 25/15.5 with 5.3 assists and 3.3 blocks on 57 TS% while being a true definition of a defensive anchor at his peak winning a title

vs.

Magic did 22/12.2 with 7.7 rebounds on 61 TS% in his peak in a higher paced era....Tim scored more, more than doubled Magics rebounding....while Magic had 7 more assists.

Does 7 more assists and 4 TS% offset 3 less points, almost 8 less rebounds and being a true anchor? Even if you used stats as a be all-end all argument, theirs not much too favor Magic here.

Spare me the "pace/inflated stats" argument. Magic at 32 averaged 19/7/13 on a team with a 94 pace factor. That isn't a huge difference from the 2003 Spurs, who had a pace factor of 90. Magic would ruin any era.

Btw, running the greatest offense of all-time should count for something--it is arguably just as important as anchoring a defense.

Magic's postseason numbers in 1987 (which are still sick btw) are less gaudy only because the Lakers cakewalked into the Finals. Once they faced a worthy opponent in the Finals Magic put up 26/13/8 59 TS% and walked off with the Finals MVP. It is generally regarded as one of the great individual finals performances of all-time, and it didn't come against the New Jersey Nets.

[Smook A.]

DMAVS41 knows his stuff.

Smart guy. Props to him for that. I like intelligent posters like that :applause:

[BlackVVaves]

Well, I would for sure have WB in my top 10 last year. You wouldn't????


Yea, Parker could be in there for sure.

Lol no I was mentioning Westbrook and Tony when you said you thought you were overlooking someone :hammerhead:

[DMAVS41]

Lol no I was mentioning Westbrook and Tony when you said you thought you were overlooking someone :hammerhead:

Oh...so without looking at anything and going off memory. I'd say something like that.

The more I think about it...the more I'd include Dwight in my top 10 players. He played like 78 games iirc...and was still giving quality defense/rebounding and around 17 a game.

The Lakers were just a mess and it's too bad because Kobe/Dwight in the right situation last year could have been a deadly duo.

But, I mean, and I don't want to rub it in, but it's kind of tough when howard leaves Kobe to join Harden. I know it's more than that, but damn...

[BlackVVaves]

Oh...so without looking at anything and going off memory. I'd say something like that.

The more I think about it...the more I'd include Dwight in my top 10 players. He played like 78 games iirc...and was still giving quality defense/rebounding and around 17 a game.

The Lakers were just a mess and it's too bad because Kobe/Dwight in the right situation last year could have been a deadly duo.

But, I mean, and I don't want to rub it in, but it's kind of tough when howard leaves Kobe to join Harden. I know it's more than that, but damn...

Had the Lakers CP3 deal not gotten vetoed, and the presumably ensuing Bynum/Dwight trade transpired soon after...

That was Dwight before the back surgery. The MVP candidate Dwight. Along with Kobe, along with the best point guard in the L.

Pretty sure the Lakers world class trainers would have caught Dwight's back condition quicker and disallowed him from playing injured, unlike Orlando. That's what really ****ed his shit up.

To me, that would have been the right situation as you say. An elite distributor that brought perimeter defense.

Can't blame Dwight for jumping ship to a better situation at all. Anyone could have told you the Lakers immediate future was looking bleak. As a player in your prime, you want to grow with a team, not struggle with a bunch of senior citizens.

[chazzy]

Kobe's numbers are so inflated. cared more about the numbers than the wins
Based on what?

[BlackVVaves]

Too bad the Mavs couldn't snag him. Dwight plus Dirk this year? Oh boy.

[SamuraiSWISH]

1) MJ
2) Bird
3) LeBron (if he wins 3rd)
4) Duncan (if he wins 5th) ... has to dominate individually
5) Shaq
6) Kobe
7) Kareem
8) Hakeem
9) Russell
10) Wilt

[DMAVS41]

Based on what?

What do you mean?

[ThePhantomCreep]

Yes. Duncan was first team all nba and first team all defense...and he deserved both.

He had a 107 ortg and a 95 drtg. He was 4th in the league in rapm at 7.3.

Kobe had a 112 ortg and a 107 drtg. He was nowhere near the top of rapm at 3.2.

I wouldn't go nuts and say Duncan's regular season was for sure better, but it was close...and you have to give the tie breaker to the guy going for 18/10/3 in the playoffs while playing elite defense on a finals run....while the other guy is sitting at home.

Imagine if duncan had played 5 more minutes per game and jacked it up like Kobe...his numbers would be better for sure, but he would have worn down and possibly hurt himself as well. that supposed to make him a better player? if he was on a fringe playoff team and played 36 mpg and shot a lot more and neglected his defense and rested there and just cared about scoring and rebounding.

Shit...Duncan could easily give you 24/13/4 if he gunned for stats like that and stopped playing defense altogether. But he'd be a much worse player.

Kobe was great last year, it's not abut hating on Kobe, it's about Duncan having an amazing year start to finish.Good grief. Duncan's peak season was 23/13/4--you really think a 37-year TD is going to give you that over 82 games? :biggums:

Had Duncan "jacked it up like Kobe" or even the 2002-2003 version of himself, his TS% would have been in the low-50s, no question. Did you forget that Kobe scored 10 more PPG on better efficiency? Instead of conjuring up crazy scenarios where an old Duncan is averaging 23 a game, ask yourself why the Spurs were so dominant with TD only averaging 30MPG.

[Koontzy]

I would put him at number #4

1. MJ
2. Bird
3. Dr. J
4. Duncan

[ThePhantomCreep]

Based on what?
Nothing. Kobe ran himself into the ground trying to will his team to the playoffs. Maybe if he played 30 minutes a night and strategically took games off throughout the season like Duncan, he'd come off looking better.

[BlackVVaves]

1) MJ
2) Bird
3) LeBron (if he wins 3rd)
4) Duncan (if he wins 5th) ... has to dominate individually
5) Shaq
6) Kobe
7) Kareem
8) Hakeem
9) Russell
10) Wilt

:biggums:



I would put him at number #4

1. MJ
2. Bird
3. Dr. J
4. Duncan

http://www.teamvalkyrieftw.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/morgan_freeman_disapoint_gif1.gif

[DMAVS41]

Good grief. Duncan's peak season was 23/13/4--you really think a 37-year TD is going to give you that over 82 games? :biggums:

Had Duncan "jacked it up like Kobe" or even the 2002-2003 version of himself, his TS% would have been in the low-50s, no question. Did you forget that Kobe scored 10 more PPG on better efficiency? Instead of conjuring up crazy scenarios where an old Duncan is averaging 23 a game, ask yourself why the Spurs were so dominant with TD only averaging 30MPG?

Uhhhh...what?

I'm saying that if Duncan didn't try as hard on defense...he'd still be better than Kobe defensively mind you...and gunned more for stats and played more minutes on a fringe playoff team...he'd have much better numbers. It's just the truth. It would't make him a better player.

Again, I didn't say Kobe wasn't great in 13. I said he's over-rated if you think he and Duncan weren't comparable. One guy played no defense...the other guy was the anchor of the 3rd best defense in the league.

And even with working his ass off on defense...Duncan was still putting up 18/10/3 55.4% TS

There is a reason this was written about Kobe;

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2013/1/11/3864814/kobe-bryant-is-ruining-kobe-bryants-historic-season

There is a reason why the Lakers got noticeably better defensively with Kobe off the court...which is pretty damning considering they were already the 20th ranked defense.

Kobe had a great offensive season...the problem is that it came at the expense of any effort on defense. And maybe the root problem was the coach, but you are asking me to choose between two of the best players in the game last year...and I'm going with the guy giving effort on both ends and on the glass...while being a better teammate...while also actually playing...and playing well in the playoffs.

This really is not controversial...

[DMAVS41]

Nothing. Kobe ran himself into the ground trying to will his team to the playoffs. Maybe if he played 30 minutes a night and strategically took games off throughout the season like Duncan, he'd come off looking better.

And maybe if Kobe had given any effort whatsoever to play defense...the Lakers wouldn't have had to struggle so much just to make the playoffs.

Just a thought...

[DMAVS41]

Quick question;

Was Harden better than Duncan last year?

[Yankstar]

Uhhhh...what?

I'm saying that if Duncan didn't try as hard on defense...he'd still be better than Kobe defensively mind you...and gunned more for stats and played more minutes on a fringe playoff team...he'd have much better numbers. It's just the truth. It would't make him a better player.

Again, I didn't say Kobe wasn't great in 13. I said he's over-rated if you think he and Duncan weren't comparable. One guy played no defense...the other guy was the anchor of the 3rd best defense in the league.

And even with working his ass off on defense...Duncan was still putting up 18/10/3 55.4% TS

There is a reason this was written about Kobe;

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2013/1/11/3864814/kobe-bryant-is-ruining-kobe-bryants-historic-season

There is a reason why the Lakers got noticeably better defensively with Kobe off the court...which is pretty damning considering they were already the 20th ranked defense.

Kobe had a great offensive season...the problem is that it came at the expense of any effort on defense. And maybe the root problem was the coach, but you are asking me to choose between two of the best players in the game last year...and I'm going with the guy giving effort on both ends and on the glass...while being a better teammate...while also actually playing...and playing well in the playoffs.

This really is not controversial...

The thing is Kobe played much more then Duncan. He also had to he the number one option on offence so he had to let the defence slip. If he played only 20 minutes a game and had back to backs off as well as not having to score more then 15-20 a game he could give you elite defence. Also Centre >>> SG defensively no matter how good the SG is. An average or below average defensive big will have more impact.

[DMAVS41]

The thing is Kobe played much more then Duncan. He also had to he the number one option on offence so he had to let the defence slip. If he played only 20 minutes a game and had back to backs off as well as not having to score more then 15-20 a game he could give you elite defence. Also Centre >>> SG defensively no matter how good the SG is. An average or below average defensive big will have more impact.

I agree. Which is why you can't penalize Duncan for having worse offensive numbers...LOL.

But nah...Kobe isn't playing elite defense...he hasn't in years. Duncan didn't play 20 mpg either...he played 30 mpg.

Totally agree that having an interior defender anchoring a defense is almost always more valuable. Why would that be an argument for Kobe? We aren't grading on a curve.

I could turn around and say that it's far easier to score as a sg than a center in the game today...but I don't see Kobe fans grading duncan's offensive production on a curve.

So sorry...that makes no sense.

[Yankstar]

I agree. Which is why you can't penalize Duncan for having worse offensive numbers...LOL.

But nah...Kobe isn't playing elite defense...he hasn't in years. Duncan didn't play 20 mpg either...he played 30 mpg.

Totally agree that having an interior defender anchoring a defense is almost always more valuable. Why would that be an argument for Kobe? We aren't grading on a curve.

I could turn around and say that it's far easier to score as a sg than a center in the game today...but I don't see Kobe fans grading duncan's offensive production on a curve.

So sorry...that makes no sense.

Just curious do you have MJ as GOAT over the centres (Kareem/Wilt/Russell?) Because the same argument applies to MJ as Kobe (obviously MJ was better but they were very similar players).

[ThePhantomCreep]

And maybe if Kobe had given any effort whatsoever to play defense...the Lakers wouldn't have had to struggle so much just to make the playoffs.

Just a thought...

How on earth is Kobe responsible for the coach's defense-allergic system? Even Dwight looked terrible in it at times.

If Kobe was holding the team back as you're seemingly implying, the Lakers would have shone brightly in the postseason and gave the Spurs a real scare in the first round. They didn't come close to winning one game.

[Smook A.]

Quick question;

Was Harden better than Duncan last year?
If you take out defense, then Harden was better than Duncan last year.

[DMAVS41]

How on earth is Kobe responsible for the coach's defense-allergic system? Even Dwight looked terrible in it at times.

If Kobe was holding the team back as you're seemingly implying, the Lakers would have shone brightly in the postseason and gave the Spurs a real scare in the first round. They didn't come close to winning one game.

I never said they were better without Kobe overall...stop the straw men please.

I said they were better defensively without him...

Was Harden better than Duncan last year?
Was Melo better than Duncan last year?

[DMAVS41]

Just curious do you have MJ as GOAT over the centres (Kareem/Wilt/Russell?) Because the same argument applies to MJ as Kobe (obviously MJ was better but they were very similar players).

What argument? Duncan was clearly a more impactful defender throughout his career than MJ...although the gap is not nearly as big between MJ and Duncan defensively as it is with Duncan and Kobe.

But that doesn't mean I have to take Duncan over MJ overall.

I had Kobe as like the 5th or 6th best player last year...you act like I'm saying he sucked.

I just had the defensive anchor giving you 18/10/3 higher than the guy playing no defense whatsoever, actually hurting his team defensively, putting up great offensive numbers on a fringe playoff team.

I don't see any real tangible reason to think Kobe was any better than Harden or Melo last year based on your criteria and arguing tactics...

[DMAVS41]

If you take out defense, then Harden was better than Duncan last year.

Of course.

That would be my point....Duncan actually defended at an elite level last year.

Kobe and Harden were easily better offensive players than Duncan last year.

It's the defense that makes it debatable....I just side with the guy in Duncan...and in the case of Kobe vs Duncan...the guy that had a long playoff run while Kobe is sitting at home injured...in large part because of those minutes he logged which were needed to get his numbers.

It would be one thing if Kobe had maintained and finished out the season and playoffs, but he broke down...he couldn't get through it. I don't blame him for it, but it's just the truth.

[BlackVVaves]

Just curious do you have MJ as GOAT over the centres (Kareem/Wilt/Russell?) Because the same argument applies to MJ as Kobe (obviously MJ was better but they were very similar players).

The same argument doesn't really apply, as MJ was a DPOY type of defender for a substantial portion of his career.

[Yankstar]

The same argument doesn't really apply, as MJ was a DPOY type of defender for a substantial portion of his career.

Who had more all NBA defensive teams then Kobe? :facepalm

[BlackVVaves]

Who had more all NBA defensive teams then Kobe? :facepalm

Man, I was going to cite the countless articles from reputable sources on the web that highlight the joke that is Kobe's multiple All Defense Selections..

Then I realized, you know this already. You just choose to ignore the facts. So, I'm not going to waste my time at 4 in the morning educating a stubborn mind.

There are like, 4 All NBA selections that Kobe was underservingly awarded.

[Yankstar]

Man, I was going to cite the countless articles from reputable sources on the web that highlight the joke that is Kobe's multiple All Defense Selections..

Then I realized, you know this already. You just choose to ignore the facts. So, I'm not going to waste my time at 4 in the morning educating a stubborn mind.

There are like, 4 All NBA selections that Kobe was underservingly awarded.

The thing is the NBA coaches voted Kobe in for that award. It's not even based on fan voting... I think NBA coaches know a thing or two about defence. I am not saying Kobe was better defensively then MJ but to say they are not close is ridiculous and just hating on Kobe :biggums:

[Big#50]

The thing is the NBA coaches voted Kobe in for that award. It's not even based on fan voting... I think NBA coaches know a thing or two about defence. I am not saying Kobe was better defensively then MJ but to say they are not close is ridiculous and just hating on Kobe :biggums:
They are not even in the same ballpark. Kobe is not a great defensive player. He is just above average. Always has been.

[Yankstar]

They are not even in the same ballpark. Kobe is not a great defensive player. He is just above average. Always has been.

Top would be a top 5 defensive SG, top 10 at worst. That is elite to me :facepalm

[BlackVVaves]

The thing is the NBA coaches voted Kobe in for that award. It's not even based on fan voting... I think NBA coaches know a thing or two about defence. I am not saying Kobe was better defensively then MJ but to say they are not close is ridiculous and just hating on Kobe :biggums:

Kobe was a lock down-esque defender for two, MAYBE three seasons of his NBA career. 2000, 2001. Fluctuated between average, above average, and downright bad defender after the three-peat years. Average defender in 2004, 2006. Very good defender in 2008. Shit defender in 2007, and every year after 2010.

Jordan spent many years between 86 and 92 as a defensive hound. Won a DPOY. The dude averaged 3 steals and 2 blocks twice...as a guard.

Lmao. Get real bro.

[Big#50]

Top would be a top 5 defensive SG, top 10 at worst. That is elite to me :facepalm
All time?????
Kobe is a good defender for a great offensive player. But there are guys in the league that have a job because of their defense. Kobe making all defensive teams being voted by coaches means shit. His own coach said he wasn't that good.

[JohnFreeman]

Top 5

[Yankstar]

All time?????
Kobe is a good defender for a great offensive player. But there are guys in the league that have a job because of their defense. Kobe making all defensive teams being voted by coaches means shit. His own coach said he wasn't that good.

All time. Dumars, Moncrief, Coopers and Jordan are the only ones better IMO.

[Big#50]

All time. Dumars, Moncrief, Coopers and Jordan are the only ones better IMO.
Christie
Wade
Allen
Eddie Jones
Majerle
Thabo
All better on defense.

[BlackVVaves]

Top would be a top 5 defensive SG, top 10 at worst. That is elite to me :facepalm

http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/i'm%20out%20of%20here/grand/im-out-of-here-eccbc87e4b5ce2fe28308fd9f2a7baf3-2691.gif