Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?

[hateraid]

If I had to choose a person who is the best on court leader, these two would get my vote. Although I'd see Magic as a better floor general and playmaker, I see Jordan as the more vocal leader.
Who in your opinion is the better fon court leader? (keep in mind, this is not a debate about the better player, in which I'd say Magic)

[Ianou]

Johnson no contest. His airness did it all himself so he did not lead the floor, he slashed to the basket almost every possesion.

[DreamRockets]

magic, doesn't make him better than jordan though.

[Xsatyr]

Johnson no contest. His airness did it all himself so he did not lead the floor, he slashed to the basket almost every possesion.

Who?

[Ianou]

Magic as in Earvin Magic Johnson...

[hateraid]

Johnson no contest. His airness did it all himself so he did not lead the floor, he slashed to the basket almost every possesion.

Not so fast. Jordan did alot vocally to tell his teammates where to be and when on the floor. He pushed his players do go all out. I don't see another player with that much presence.

[Ianou]

Magic didn't need to talk. It was all about heads up b-ball and eye contact.

[Indian guy]

Doesn't make him a better player, but Magic easily.

[Xsatyr]

Magic as in Earvin Magic Johnson...

My mistake I misread your post. I thought you meant to say Jordan bc I thought you called Johnson his airness. But you picked Johnson and the other sentence was about Jordan.

[Ianou]

Yea I know it might have been confusing. It's kind of my fault but I wrote about Jordan because I felt like I had nothing to add for Magic.

[Loki]

Phil Jackson in his book said something to the effect of "just because a guy has the ball in his hands all the time doesn't mean that he's a leader; a guy like Jordan or Bird I feel were much better leaders than Magic Johnson." (paraphrased)


I'd say Magic, myself, though the edge is not huge (their styles differed wildly, though), and it doesn't make him the better player imo.

[Ianou]

Jackson would be expected to say that seeing as how most of his NBA rings are thanks to his airness...

[DreamRockets]

phil is just wrong, magic defined what a "floor general" is.

[Loki]

phil is just wrong, magic defined what a "floor general" is.

I know, I was just posting his comments. I myself disagree with him, though I don't think the gap is large in that area at all. Different leadership styles (and different positions, which contributed to that), though.

[Penny37]

Larry Bird should be right up there with Magic and MJ, as well. He was a force to be reckoned with and really played his heart out.

[Shep]

this is not a debate about the better player, in which I'd say Magic
:roll:

[MVP]

Magic was the better floor leader overall, however, MJ was a more dynamic player where he had all the offensive moves in the book.

[Loki]

Larry Bird should be right up there with Magic and MJ

Without question.

[hateraid]

:roll:


Great contribution followed by good insight. It had no relevance to the question.

[Shep]

Great contribution followed by good insight
:cheers:

It had no relevance to the question
why bring it up then?

[Chalkmaze]

Magic...

[Lakerz_Forever]

Magic. :bowdown:

[GMATCallahan]

Magic was the better floor leader, but Jordan was an underrated passer and the superior player.

Still, let's face it, Scottie Pippen was almost as much of a floor leader as Jordan.

[GMATCallahan]

Magic was the better floor leader overall, however, MJ was a more dynamic player where he had all the offensive moves in the book.

Jordan was obviously the superior pure scorer in comparison to Magic, but Air's greatest edge was on the defensive end. Jordan was one of the best perimeter defenders of all-time, whereas Magic was a mediocre individual defender at best. Some have said that Magic didn't really play defense, although he was an effective team defender who came up with steals.

[PMshooter]

I'd say Magic is the better floor leader at game time.

Michael might have been a better overall leader. The stories you hear about him in practice, the early morning weight lifting club, and even seeing Phil actually let him coach the team during timeouts on a semi-regular basis, point to a 24/7 leader type.

I haven't heard enough Magic stories to say whether or not he did that kind of stuff.

[Batchoy]

I haven't heard enough Magic stories to say whether or not he did that kind of stuff.Then I'll give you some Magic "stories". By the age of 20 Magic Johnson had a high school state championship, an NCAA College Championship, and an NBA Championship to his name. That's 3 levels of Championships in 4 years with Magic getting MVP for all three Championships, I believe. I don't think that will ever happen again. How's that for leadership?

For me, it's Magic over Jordan as the better floor leader.

[dejordan]

between those two, i'd say magic simply because with magic on the court you almost didn't need to run an offense. he could literally create offense for everyone as long as the team could rebound and outlet to him. all time bill russell may have a legit argument though.

[GMATCallahan]

between those two, i'd say magic simply because with magic on the court you almost didn't need to run an offense. he could literally create offense for everyone as long as the team could rebound and outlet to him. all time bill russell may have a legit argument though.

To me, Bill Russell was the greatest overall leader of all-time, period. In terms of a floor leader (usually the point guard or playmaker), Magic is as fine a choice as any.

[hateraid]

Thanks for the opinions boys. Just wanted to prove a point to someone here, unfortunately did not enter thread. Smart guy.

[gengiskhan]

stricly speaking leadership wise:

Jordan = Magic = Bird

cant pick one. all 3 were exceptional leaders while having unbelievable STATs & winning season MVPs & being playoff MVPs & FMVPs too.

[Micku]

They were different, so I don't know who is better. And I need to watch more games by them.

Magic used to yell at his teammates like Jordan. But Magic controlled the offense more and find guys when they are open. He could, if called for, score points. He could play off the ball and get into get position to post, which he would destroy ppl in his prime because of the mismatch.

Jordan did control the offense, but not as often as Magic. The offense went through Jordan tho. It seemed that he lead more by example by being excellent on both ends of the floor. He could almost everything on offense, being a pg, playing off the ball, post up, and defend.

[ThaRegul8r]

I'm unsure why some people feel the need to insert a comment on who was the better player when that wasn't the question being asked. It's like some people can't just answer the question and leave it at that.

[Harison]

Overall floor leader (including defense, vocal, etc): MJ > Bird > Magic.

Purely offense floor leader: Stockton > Magic > Bird > MJ

[Round Mound]

MJ Was NEVER a Great Floor Leader. Some Stans Here Think He Is Perfect ore Some Shi-t Like That:facepalm . Jordan Started Off as a Scorer and Later On Developed Better Play Making Skills But They Did Not Come Natural Like It Did for Magic and Bird. They Knew How To Make Their Players Better From Day 1.

Its Magic all the way people.

[gengiskhan]

MJ Was TERRIFIC a Great Floor Leader. Some Stans Here Think He Is Perfect ore Some Shi-t Like That:facepalm . Jordan Started Off as a Scorer and Later On Developed Better Play Making Skills But They Did Not Come Natural Like It Did for Magic and Bird. They Knew How To Make Their Players Better From Day 1.

Its Magic all the way people.

corrected!

With MJ, his offense was so beyond 100% that his other capabilities got OVERSHADOWED unfortunately!

-His gambling defense (should've had atleast 2 DPOY titles, 1993 title is missing)

-His leadership skills (ask Kerr, Kukoc, Pippen, Phil Jackson, Tex winter)

-His intangibles were off the charts too.

Magic & Bird got due credit for leadership cuz of their lack of athletic ability.

MJ was just as fantastic floor general but his unebelievable athletic ability & offensive powers OVERSHADOWED everything else particularly his Defensive capabilities which were terrific too.

[Xiao Yao You]

Earvin

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Magic Johnson by a mile.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ Was NEVER a Great Floor Leader. Some Stans Here Think He Is Perfect ore Some Shi-t Like That:facepalm . Jordan Started Off as a Scorer and Later On Developed Better Play Making Skills But They Did Not Come Natural Like It Did for Magic and Bird. They Knew How To Make Their Players Better From Day 1.

Its Magic all the way people.

Exactly.


"Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively...the year that Michael retired, Scottie I think was the most valuable player in the league. He was probably the player most liked by others. He mingled. He brought out the best in players and communicated the best. Leadership, real leadership is one of his strengths. Everybody says Michael was a great leader. He led by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. Scottie's leadership was equally dominant, but a leadership of patting on the back, of support." - Phil Jackson


And, above all, Pippen was one of the best practitioners of team defense that the league has ever seen. On many occasions, Phil Jackson would question a player about why he had not adhered to the pre-game script by failing to double a designated scorer or "half" a defensive rotation. The player's response would usually be, "Scottie told me to do something different."

PJ would then shrug, nod and say, "Okay."

On offense, Pippen was an excellent finisher who made up in finesse and speed what he lacked in power. He also was a quick study, who mastered every intricacy of the triangle in record time.

His shot was a tad flat, making him an erratic jump-shooter. And at least once every game, Pippen would take a too-quick, too-long shot that would drive his coaches nuts. That's because he always yearned for more touches.

Also, since MJ was extremely harsh on teammates who made mistakes, it was Pippen whom his teammates sought out to soothe their bruised egos.

To civilians, Pippen was irresponsible, aloof and occasionally semi-antagonistic. But to his peers, he was always accessible and well-liked.--Charlie Rosen


People keep conflating taking 25 shots a game with leadership. The qualities leadership requires have no correlation to one's ability to toss a ball into a hoop. Yeah, the greater the player the greater the credibility he has, but to simply assume player's leadership skills correlates to their basketball ability ignores the realities of leadership, and indeed, human nature. For all we know the locker room leader of some teams may be the 7th man. :lol Jordan's style of leadership was inherently limiting. It had a place--and worked well in combination with Pippen's different style--but there simply are inherent limits to a critical, harsh style of leadership. Imagine you had two co-workers: one offered you reinforcement and positive criticism to improve you while the other simply told you how much you sucked when you made a mistake? Who would you gravitate to? MJ was such a jerk that for years his teammates hated him, as was documented in the Jordan Rules. Players would move away from him on the bench when he left the game. Yet people act as if he was the basketball version of Lincoln combined with Washington? :coleman:

Jordan being compared to Magic freaking Johnson on leadership is another classic example of how overrated Jordan is due to the MJ mythology.

[gengiskhan]

Exactly.
People keep conflating taking 25 shots a game with leadership. The qualities leadership requires have no correlation to one's ability to toss a ball into a hoop. Yeah, the greater the player the greater the credibility he has, but to simply assume player's leadership skills correlates to their basketball ability ignores the realities of leadership, and indeed, human nature. For all we know the locker room leader of some teams may be the 7th man. :lol Jordan's style of leadership was inherently limiting. It had a place--and worked well in combination with Pippen's different style--but there simply are inherent limits to a critical, harsh style of leadership. Imagine you had two co-workers: one offered you reinforcement and positive criticism to improve you while the other simply told you how much you sucked when you made a mistake? Who would you gravitate to? MJ was such a jerk that for years his teammates hated him, as was documented in the Jordan Rules. Players would move away from him on the bench when he left the game. Yet people act as if he was the basketball version of Lincoln combined with Washington? :coleman:

Jordan being compared to Magic freaking Johnson on leadership is another classic example of how overrated Jordan is due to the MJ mythology.

From the Horse's Mouth, His Airness speaks:

"My father was after me all that season to pack it in when it was over. He felt my teammate didn't appreciate what I was doing for them," said Jordan, specifically referring to Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant. "I covered their **$!! when they got tight at the end of games and I had to overcome fourth-quarter deficits all by myself. It bothered my father a lot, just as it bothered me, to hear them bitchin' about not getting enough credit, or not getting enough shots, or squawking about the supposed preferential treatment I was getting from [coach] Phil Jackson 'I said to Horace, 'Why should you worry about what I'm getting now when I'm not worried about what you're going to get later?"

"They had no idea how much pressure and grief I had to put up with off the court while carrying them on the court. I wanted them to find out for themselves how tough it was to be on their own," Jordan underlined. "Scottie found out the hard way what it's like to be under the microscope 24 hours a day. "For the first half of the season he did great carrying the team, the second half not so great. Sitting at the end of Game 3 against the Knicks was the worst thing he could've done. I don't think he'll ever live that down."

-scottie a team leader is a HOAX:

-begging Krause for trade to seattle for big contract in 1995, 1996, 1997

-Magic, MJ & Bird were never like that. They were too loyal to Lakers, Bulls & celtics respectively.

[KOBE143]

Is this even a question?

Magic ofc

[Round Mound]

corrected!

With MJ, his offense was so beyond 100% that his other capabilities got OVERSHADOWED unfortunately!

-His gambling defense (should've had atleast 2 DPOY titles, 1993 title is missing)

-His leadership skills (ask Kerr, Kukoc, Pippen, Phil Jackson, Tex winter)

-His intangibles were off the charts too.

Magic & Bird got due credit for leadership cuz of their lack of athletic ability.

MJ was just as fantastic floor general but his unebelievable athletic ability & offensive powers OVERSHADOWED everything else particularly his Defensive capabilities which were terrific too.

:no: Geng I Know Your Favorite Player Ever Was Jordan But To Tell Me That Jordan was a Great Creator, Floor General, Team Player and Knew How To Visualize the Court For Team Play Naturally like Bird or Magic? Then You are Kidding Yourself. Its like Saying Barkley Was Not a Lazy Defender...Even I Admit To This.

Jordan Got Better as the Years Progressed But He Was Not in the Level of Magic and Bird in Those Skills. He Never Was. Thankgod Pippen Finally Played and Got the Role He Deserved With Phil Jackson Asking Jordan to Make him the Pointforward and Share the Ball With Him To Create Future Havoc On Court. It Took Jordan More Time Than Bird and Magic to Learn These Skills. Just Watch them Play and Compare the Level of Awareness Magic and Bird Had Was Jus In ANother Level.

[Smoke117]

This is a joke right? Magic Johnson. Jordan wasn't even the floor leader on the Bulls, Pippen was. Jordan didn't even become vocal until well into the 90s and what he was vocal about was being an asshole. Pippen was always the vocal leader on defense once the team started becoming dominant and he developed into the offensive floor leader when Jordan retired. There is numerous quotes of former Bulls saying how Pippen was the floor leader of the team.

[lakerspng]

Magic, not even close. The Jordan legend has grown to the point where people automatically say he's the best at every facet of the game, including points of the game that were his weakness. That was his biggest criticism for half of his career, he didn't lead guys, he didn't make guys better, he was all stats, ball hog. Magic was simply the best floor general to ever step on a court and the most charismatic leader. Magic was absolutely unique, not only in his playing style, but in his ability to be such a mean, nasty, tough competitor, while also constantly encouraging and pushing the guys on his team to be better. If only Kobe had some of Magic's quality... They were in the same situation, young player coming onto the team of a legendary big man in his relative prime, but where Kobe failed and ended up blowing up his relationship with Shaq, magic, just as alpha a personality as anyone, found a way to thrive with Kareem, all the way till his retirement. Magic was special. Jordan's gift was his unmatched intensity, determination and scoring prowess. magic's was his leadership. He was born with it.

[Pointguard]

Phil Jackson in his book said something to the effect of "just because a guy has the ball in his hands all the time doesn't mean that he's a leader; a guy like Jordan or Bird I feel were much better leaders than Magic Johnson." (paraphrased)

I'd say Magic, myself, though the edge is not huge (their styles differed wildly, though), and it doesn't make him the better player imo.

Phil is a great coach but I can't say he ever got the leadership thing down. His triangle creates a void in leadership and it could be argued it created an atmosphere of great ego-centricity. Which is the exact opposite of what a Zen leader teaches. Phil never knew how to balance the Kobe Shaq thing and thought that his Zen teachings would create a natural flow out of it. It was the greatest debacle of leadership and he was one third the equation. When Pippen wanted the leadership role Phil castrated him in favor of a guy that didn't have leadership in him at a critical time in prolonging their season.

Phil was more than likely pacifying Jordan with the quote. The triangle would be a leaderless contraption if he said it any differently. Jordan, a lot of the time wasn't even in the chain of command for fellow players to get instruction - or other things communication wise - I don't know any player that said yeah they went to Jordan in this regard - they all went to Pippen. They couldn't talk to Jordan and when they did he had no trouble pulling out the fear me card. Even told players to not pass to Cartwright, and Cartwright had to threaten him in order to stop the nonsense. Jordan is GOAT but he wasn't top notch in everything and had some major leadership issues. Listen to his HOF speech, it wasn't about his teammates, it was about him and his adversaries. It took a lot of people back.

Magic was approachable, teaching, uniting, accessible, a mentor, guide and leader by example. He was totally intuned to players not being involved and got them involved. He even had an award system if a player got a block, steal, or defensive play. He inspired Kareem to play all out after he was fading for two years. He ran the most team efficient offense ever. He could make players believe in themselves. He made it easy for players. He knew how to reach players where they were at and inspire them to where they should be at. Jordan really lacked in most of these areas and to be blunt and simple - he shouldn't be compared to Magic in this regards.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Good to see the Pippen brigade up in here with their usual revisionist history. "Pippen was the leader" etc. My ass. :oldlol:

[Rasheed1]

Mj was a great floor leader... But Magic was the floor GENERAL...

[La Frescobaldi]

Magic by quite a ways to me.

Magic could invent points out of thin air for any player on his team. Even that very last man off Laker bench looked sleek getting a pass from Magic.

[andgar923]

can somebody define what their definition of a 'floor leader' is?

Like some have mentioned, they were different players asked to do different things for their teams. Both were successful so I don't see how it's a clear case.

I think neither was actually better than the other. They both had their strengths and weaknesses so things balance out.

[LeBird]

Magic, and it isn't even close. Jordan's leadership skills - or lackthereof - was a problem, not a strength.

[gengiskhan]

Mj was a great floor leader... But Magic was the floor GENERAL...

A great Floor "General" who lost NBA Finals series to Celtics, Pistons, Bulls & Sixers.

& a great floor "Leader" is 6-0 in NBA Finals series.

that makes sense.

[eliteballer]

Yeah those same Pistons and Celtics teams that were kicking mj's a$$ year after year in the playoffs.

The answer is obviously Magic. When you watch him play you can see how he directs the entire team and what everyone should be doing. DURING play. Literally the engine of the team. Whereas Jordan would do that kind of stuff during timeouts or breaks in play while during play he'd mostly be concerned with his own stuff.

[Psileas]

I'm unsure why some people feel the need to insert a comment on who was the better player when that wasn't the question being asked. It's like some people can't just answer the question and leave it at that.

It's in order to secure themselves from certain posters who will probably feel attacked after somebody suggests that X was better than Jordan at Y, hence the "I still love Jordan", "but Jordan's still the GOAT" types of comments. Your level of greatness isn't necessarily a shield against irrational fans.

[Psileas]

A great Floor "General" who lost NBA Finals series to Celtics, Pistons, Bulls & Sixers.

& a great floor "Leader" is 6-0 in NBA Finals series.

that makes sense.

Here's what I meant before...

BTW, since the 4 round format started existing, one lost to the Bucks and twice to the Celtics (10-3), the other went 8-1, with the only loss coming to the Rockets in his short comeback.

[La Frescobaldi]

A great Floor "General" who lost NBA Finals series to Celtics, Pistons, Bulls & Sixers.

& a great floor "Leader" is 6-0 in NBA Finals series.

that makes sense.

You are talking about something else entirely.

Jordan got his head handed to him in the playoffs by those exact same teams. Year after year.

Many people argue - from an extremely strong position - that the champion Bulls would have continued to be also-rans/disappeared if they had to play in the 80s before those teams got old. Jordan and Rodman both knew it, and said it as a simple fact - the NBA they were winning in was far weaker than the 80s NBA.

There's no question the 90s Bulls never met a team in the Finals of the caliber of Showtime Lakers or the 80s Celtics, nor the Pistons, early '80s Sixers, early 80s Bucks.
Many people contend the '80s Jazz were better than the old legs Jazz that got into the Finals.... but Magic's Lakers made sure they never got out of the West.

If you are going to try and bring up things that don't answer the OP's question but that suit your agenda, you are going to have to face the fact that Michael Jordan won in a far weaker league than the NBA Magic Johnson dominated in.

[Glide2keva]

Johnson no contest. His airness did it all himself so he did not lead the floor, he slashed to the basket almost every possession.The quote of a person who CLEARLY did not watch Jordan play.:facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How was Jordan a "poor leader"? You clowns are so blatant w/ your agenda. :oldlol:

[DatAsh]

Jordan was a great leader, one of the best ever, but this isn't even close. Magic IS the best leader and floor general ever.

[Rasheed1]

The agendas are becoming really annoying... Alot of these so called fans really just groopies of one player rather than real NBA fans..

Everything has to devolve into a petty b*tchathon on this board anymore.

I think both players were great leaders and floor generals... I just happen to think Magic was a little better due to the different things he did out there for his team.. He orchestrated showtime at the forum.. That was something incredible the way that team ran and how Magic was the general getting the ball and pushing it, finding open guys and leading the attack..

It was beautiful to watch and that doesnt take anything away from Mj. I have often said Mj is the GOAT, but some of the posters on this board need to stop acting like p*ssies everytime someone doesnt lick their idol's balls.

[Calabis]

Magic Johnson and Bird, hell Jordan learned to lead from these two

[Rysio]

the most selfish player in nba history a leader? please stop.

[97 bulls]

You are talking about something else entirely.

Jordan got his head handed to him in the playoffs by those exact same teams. Year after year.

Many people argue - from an extremely strong position - that the champion Bulls would have continued to be also-rans/disappeared if they had to play in the 80s before those teams got old. Jordan and Rodman both knew it, and said it as a simple fact - the NBA they were winning in was far weaker than the 80s NBA.
And many more people have trashed this idiotic and biased agenda driven nonsense.


There's no question the 90s Bulls never met a team in the Finals of the caliber of Showtime Lakers or the 80s Celtics, nor the Pistons, early '80s Sixers, early 80s Bucks.

Many people contend the '80s Jazz were better than the old legs Jazz that got into the Finals.... but Magic's Lakers made sure they never got out of the West.

If you are going to try and bring up things that don't answer the OP's question but that suit your agenda, you are going to have to face the fact that Michael Jordan won in a far weaker league than the NBA Magic Johnson dominated in.
Im about to squash your biased agenda by forcing you to contradict your stance by saying this. How do you explain the fact that the Bulls destroyed the Lakers and Pistons in the 91 playoffs? Beating the Pistons 4-0 then the Lakers 4-1.

[97 bulls]

To answer the question. Magic was more of a leader than Jordan. Its one of the things that made Magic great.

[DatAsh]

You are talking about something else entirely.

Jordan got his head handed to him in the playoffs by those exact same teams. Year after year.

Many people argue - from an extremely strong position - that the champion Bulls would have continued to be also-rans/disappeared if they had to play in the 80s before those teams got old. Jordan and Rodman both knew it, and said it as a simple fact - the NBA they were winning in was far weaker than the 80s NBA.

There's no question the 90s Bulls never met a team in the Finals of the caliber of Showtime Lakers or the 80s Celtics, nor the Pistons, early '80s Sixers, early 80s Bucks.
Many people contend the '80s Jazz were better than the old legs Jazz that got into the Finals.... but Magic's Lakers made sure they never got out of the West.

If you are going to try and bring up things that don't answer the OP's question but that suit your agenda, you are going to have to face the fact that Michael Jordan won in a far weaker league than the NBA Magic Johnson dominated in.

Are you not guilty of the very same thing you seem so vehemently opposed to?

[Rasheed1]

Jordan was a great leader but more importantly he was a fantastic player. He did alot of the heavy lifting on his own, and frankly did things that Magic could not have done. Magic's strength did rest more in his leadership and ability to directly involve teammates in the games. Magic had great versatility, but he didnt have the physical skills Mj did...

[gengiskhan]

Yeah those same Pistons and Celtics teams that were kicking mj's a$$ year after year in the playoffs.

The answer is obviously Magic. When you watch him play you can see how he directs the entire team and what everyone should be doing. DURING play. Literally the engine of the team. Whereas Jordan would do that kind of stuff during timeouts or breaks in play while during play he'd mostly be concerned with his own stuff.

BS

Magic lost with GOAT Kareem & HOF worthy on his team to Celtics, Pistons & :lol sixers:lol . Magic is clearly a biggest looser than MJ & even Bird

I agree with '87-'90 MJ, "give me Kareem & worthy, I'll win rings too"

after all MJ got 32.5 / 8 / 8 with amateur pippen & grant. could easily get 30 /10 /10 for 82 games with GOAT kareem & UNC teammate Worthy in Bulls line up.

MJ clearly better floor leader than Magic. :coleman:

[pauk]

Magic.

[DatAsh]

BS

Magic lost with GOAT Kareem & HOF worthy on his team to Celtics, Pistons & :lol sixers:lol . Magic is clearly a biggest looser than MJ & even Bird

I agree with '87-'90 MJ, "give me Kareem & worthy, I'll win rings too"

could easily get 30 /10 /10 for 82 games with GOAT kareem & UNC teammate Worthy in Bulls line up.


Do you honestly believe that?

[La Frescobaldi]

Im about to squash your biased agenda by forcing you to contradict your stance by saying this. How do you explain the fact that the Bulls destroyed the Lakers and Pistons in the 91 playoffs? Beating the Pistons 4-0 then the Lakers 4-1.

best of luck with that. I've seen the argument (and your own argument) on the subject of relative NBA strength in the 80s vs. the 90s, and it's never been convincing. Jordan and Rodman themselves disagree with you.

And I already answered that question about the 91 playoffs.

Many people argue - from an extremely strong position - that the champion Bulls would have continued to be also-rans/disappeared if they had to play in the 80s before those teams got old.

And yes, a year is a very long time for an NBA player.

[La Frescobaldi]

Are you not guilty of the very same thing you seem so vehemently opposed to?
absolutely. that is pure tit for tat. if he wants to debate something entirely different from the OP's question, he better bring fact instead of just making some statement like it's undebateable fact.

[97 bulls]

best of luck with that. I've seen the argument (and your own argument) on the subject of relative NBA strength in the 80s vs. the 90s, and it's never been convincing. Jordan and Rodman themselves disagree with you.

And I already answered that question about the 91 playoffs.

Many people argue - from an extremely strong position - that the champion Bulls would have continued to be also-rans/disappeared if they had to play in the 80s before those teams got old.

And yes, a year is a very long time for an NBA player.
Neither Jordan nor Rodman ever said anything suggesting the Bulls era was weaker than any other. I know Rodman said you couldn't compare the 96 Bulls to the great teams of the 80s ONLY BECAUSE THEY HADNT WON ANYTHING YET.

Neither the Lakers nor Pistons were old at the time they were destroyed by the Bulls. What do you consider old? For the Lakers, Magic was 30 one year removed from being MVP, and.was runner-up in 91. He put up basically the same stats. Worthy was 28 or 29 the same as Scott. The same holds true for the Pistons. I guess you could say Laimbeer was old. But he was in his 30s when the Pistons won. Not to mention his game was predicated on strength and jumpshooting. So Id like to ask you, who was old on those teams?

[DatAsh]

best of luck with that. I've seen the argument (and your own argument) on the subject of relative NBA strength in the 80s vs. the 90s, and it's never been convincing. Jordan and Rodman themselves disagree with you.

And I already answered that question about the 91 playoffs.

Many people argue - from an extremely strong position - that the champion Bulls would have continued to be also-rans/disappeared if they had to play in the 80s before those teams got old.

And yes, a year is a very long time for an NBA player.

The Lakers weren't old though.

The average age of the Lakers starting five was 29 years old. Most players peak somewhere between 27-30.

[gengiskhan]

Do you honestly believe that?

Jordan + Kareem + Worthy >>> Jordan + Pippen + Grant

Kareem is GOAT top 3.
Worthy has a complete post-up polished offensive game & is an all-time great.

tell me you think otherwise !

I dont see MJ + Kareem + Worthy LOOSING a single NBA Finals or Conf Finals to any team.

[97 bulls]

The Lakers core ages in 91 avg age 27
Magic 31
Worthy 29
Scott 29
Perkins 29
Green 27
Divac 22


The Pistons core players age in 91 avg age 29
Thomas 29
Dumars 29
Rodman 29
Aguire 31
Laimbeer 33
Salley 26
Johnson 34

[gengiskhan]

The Lakers core ages in 91 avg age 27
Magic 31
Worthy 29
Scott 29
Perkins 29
Green 27
Divac 22


The Pistons core players age in 91 avg age 29
Thomas 29
Dumars 29
Rodman 29
Aguire 31
Laimbeer 33
Salley 26
Johnson 34

This guy La Frescobaldi has a vicious BIASED agenda. You OWNED his a$$ completely with that "before they got Old" thing.

well done. :coleman:

[97 bulls]

The Lakers weren't old though.

The average age of the Lakers starting five was 29 years old. Most players peak somewhere between 27-30.
He knows they werent old. Its just his agenda typing.

[gengiskhan]

the most selfish player in nba history a leader? please stop.

Nobody even mentioned Mr. Kobe Bryant's name, why are even hinting towards him.

This is plain trolling. :biggums:

[DatAsh]

Jordan + Kareem + Worthy >>> Jordan + Pippen + Grant

Kareem is GOAT top 3.
Worthy has a complete post-up polished offensive game & is an all-time great.

tell me you think otherwise !

I dont see MJ + Kareem + Worthy LOOSING a single NBA Finals or Conf Finals to any team.

I still fail to see how that would increase his rebounds from 8 to 10.

[97 bulls]

This guy La Frescobaldi has a vicious BIASED agenda. You OWNED his a$$ completely with that "before they got Old" thing.

well done. :coleman:
Im just getting started. I cant wait for him to say that the Lakers and Pistons werent at full strength

[97 bulls]

I still fail to see how that would increase his rebounds from 8 to 10.
I could easiky se Jordan avg 33/8/10 if he played a Role similar to James. Meaning a pseudo PG

[wakencdukest]

It doesn't matter which era was tougher to play in or any other nonsense. The Question is: who was the better floor leader? Magic's job was to control the offense and get the ball to the the players in the best position to score. Which he did. He was also a great motivator, he directed the offense like a coach out on the floor. Jordan's job was to score. Jordan was a great player, but he played within a system just like everyone else on the floor. A system designed to get him the ball in certain spots so he could score. Magic was clearly a better floor leader.

[97 bulls]

It doesn't matter which era was tougher to play in or any other nonsense. The Question is: who was the better floor leader? Magic's job was to control the offense and get the ball to the the players in the best position to score. Which he did. He was also a great motivator, he directed the offense like a coach out on the floor. Jordan's job was to score. Jordan was a great player, but he played within a system just like everyone else on the floor. A system designed to get him the ball in certain spots so he could score. Magic was clearly a better floor leader.
Great post

[gengiskhan]

I still fail to see how that would increase his rebounds from 8 to 10.

Jordan could get 2 offensive "weak side" rebound put backs easily.

When all the opposition focus is on Kareem & Worthy being boxed out.

MJ was always a terrific weak side rebounder.

& throughout Bulls era, Opponents outrebounded CHI particularly NYK & MIA & IND cuz lack of quality front court rebounder.

Pure rebounder Rodman's recruitment finally helped Bulls at PF position. But No center, No real rebounding SF positin hurt bulls more often then not.

throughout Bulls era, MJ & Pippen overcompensated for rebounds.

[DatAsh]

I could easiky se Jordan avg 33/8/10 if he played a Role similar to James. Meaning a pseudo PG

So you think Jordan playing in Lebron's role would average more assist than Lebron himself, despite Lebron being the better passer?

[97 bulls]

So you think Jordan playing in Lebron's role would average more assist than Lebron himself, despite Lebron being the better passer?
If he played with Jabaar and Worthy yes.

[La Frescobaldi]

Neither Jordan nor Rodman ever said anything suggesting the Bulls era was weaker than any other. I know Rodman said you couldn't compare the 96 Bulls to the great teams of the 80s ONLY BECAUSE THEY HADNT WON ANYTHING YET.

Neither the Lakers nor Pistons were old at the time they were destroyed by the Bulls. What do you consider old? For the Lakers, Magic was 30 one year removed from being MVP, and.was runner-up in 91. He put up basically the same stats. Worthy was 28 or 29 the same as Scott. The same holds true for the Pistons. I guess you could say Laimbeer was old. But he was in his 30s when the Pistons won. Not to mention his game was predicated on strength and jumpshooting. So Id like to ask you, who was old on those teams?

Really?
Come on man. Where was Cooper? Where was McAdoo? Where was Kareem? RETIRED, THAT'S WHERE. That means they got old.

Where was Rambis? Where was Coach Pat Riley?
No matter what you might want to believe, that wasn't Showtime Lakers.

I'm not going over this again bro. I have bias like anyone; but I sure don't have 97Bulls as a name or an avi that has just 1 goal in life. I ain't wasting anymore time on this when it's already got like 40 threads on ISH alone.

[La Frescobaldi]

It doesn't matter which era was tougher to play in or any other nonsense. The Question is: who was the better floor leader? Magic's job was to control the offense and get the ball to the the players in the best position to score. Which he did. He was also a great motivator, he directed the offense like a coach out on the floor. Jordan's job was to score. Jordan was a great player, but he played within a system just like everyone else on the floor. A system designed to get him the ball in certain spots so he could score. Magic was clearly a better floor leader.
great post.

[97 bulls]

Really?
Come on man. Where was Cooper? Where was McAdoo? Where was Kareem? RETIRED, THAT'S WHERE. That means they got old.

Where was Rambis? Where was Coach Pat Riley?
No matter what you might want to believe, that wasn't Showtime Lakers.

I'm not going over this again bro. I have bias like anyone; but I sure don't have 97Bulls as a name or an avi that has just 1 goal in life. I ain't wasting anymore time on this when it's already got like 40 threads on ISH alone.
And the Celtics never beat the Lakers at full strength, the Lakers beat the Sixers without Moses Malone, weve been through this. The Celtics beat teams that were barely or under .500. The Lakers played in perhaps the worst conference the NBA has ever seen. We could punch holes in any teams opposition.

Lol we all have a bias. But that bias becomes an agenda when the circumstances are taken into account. And dont forget. YOU BROUGHT THIS UP. And like usual, when I catch it, I confront it and then people like you who have that agenda tuck tail and run. Because you dont want the truth.

[La Frescobaldi]

And the Celtics never beat the Lakers at full strength, the Lakers beat the Sixers without Moses Malone, weve been through this. The Celtics beat teams that were barely or under .500. The Lakers played in perhaps the worst conference the NBA has ever seen. We could punch holes in any teams opposition.

Lol we all have a bias. But that bias becomes an agenda when the circumstances are taken into account. And dont forget. YOU BROUGHT THIS UP. And like usual, when I catch it, I confront it and then people like you who have that agenda tuck tail and run. Because you dont want the truth.
No, actually ghengiskhan brought it up, and you butted in.

[Psileas]

Really?
Come on man. Where was Cooper? Where was McAdoo? Where was Kareem? RETIRED, THAT'S WHERE. That means they got old.

Where was Rambis? Where was Coach Pat Riley?
No matter what you might want to believe, that wasn't Showtime Lakers.

I'm not going over this again bro. I have bias like anyone; but I sure don't have 97Bulls as a name or an avi that has just 1 goal in life. I ain't wasting anymore time on this when it's already got like 40 threads on ISH alone.

It's not that much the old age, it's the mileage of a team that reaches to the NBA Finals year after year after year and rests way less than the average. The Lakers from 1982 to 1989 missed the Finals only once. In 1990, they were at least as good as in 1991, and they still lost to the Suns. Add this to the fact that players like Kareem and McAdoo were definitely old and Magic, though almost 31 in 1991, was already in his 12th season, and this makes the team way older than its players' ages show. By contrast, among the 1991-98 Bulls, I can only recall one player who played all these 8 years with the team, Pippen, and even he, by 1998, wasn't the same player he was in the first half of the 90's.
Of course, the 1991 Lakers weren't the Showtime Lakers for the reasons you mentioned, unless we also call the 1990 Bulls or the 1995 Bulls "prime Bulls".

[97 bulls]

No, actually ghengiskhan brought it up, and you butted in.
No. You brought it up. Ghengis stated that Jordan was a better leader because he led his team to a better finals record than Magic. You then replied with that same drivel about how Jordan's Bulls in the 80s couldn't beat the Celtics (cuz thats what youre getting at). As if that was a fair assesment. Logical people know the Bulls in the mid 80s werent any good. Which again shows your agenda. How can you on one hand knock the Bulls for not beating the Celtics in 86 and 87 when he didnt have sufficient help because Pippen, Grant, Cartwright, Jackson etc werent there, But then knock their beating the Lakers because Kareem and Coop werent there? You dont see how hypocritical that is? You cant even go a sentence without contradicting yourself.

[97 bulls]

It's not that much the old age, it's the mileage of a team that reaches to the NBA Finals year after year after year and rests way less than the average. The Lakers from 1982 to 1989 missed the Finals only once. In 1990, they were at least as good as in 1991, and they still lost to the Suns. Add this to the fact that players like Kareem and McAdoo were definitely old and Magic, though almost 31 in 1991, was already in his 12th season, and this makes the team way older than its players' ages show. By contrast, among the 1991-98 Bulls, I can only recall one player who played all these 8 years with the team, Pippen, and even he, by 1998, wasn't the same player he was in the first half of the 90's.
Of course, the 1991 Lakers weren't the Showtime Lakers for the reasons you mentioned, unless we also call the 1990 Bulls or the 1995 Bulls "prime Bulls".
And then I could come back with the fact that the Lakers never really had a serious rival in the west during the 80s. The Celtics did have to battle the Sixers, then the Bucks, then the Pistons.

[eliteballer]

The Lakers played a lot of great teams in the West.

The defending champion Sonics in1980
Gervin/Gilmore Spurs
Hakeem/Sampson Rockets
Stockton/Malone Jazz
Drexler Blazers
Blackman/Aguirre Mavs who were just as good as those Bucks
Early 80's Suns who fielded 50+ win teams year after year

Then they had to play all those other teams in the Finals..

[97 bulls]

The Lakers played a lot of great teams in the West.

The defending champion Sonics in1980
Gervin/Gilmore Spurs
Hakeem/Sampson Rockets
Stockton/Malone Jazz
Drexler Blazers
Blackman/Aguirre Mavs who were just as good as those Bucks
Early 80's Suns who fielded 50+ win teams year after year

Then they had to play all those other teams in the Finals..
Good point. Still from top to bottom the West wasnt very good. I just dont feel they rsn out of gas. The core of that team didnt have the miles on them after Magic. Just like the core of the Bulls after Pippen

[La Frescobaldi]

No. You brought it up. Ghengis stated that Jordan was a better leader because he led his team to a better finals record than Magic. You then replied with that same drivel about how Jordan's Bulls in the 80s couldn't beat the Celtics (cuz thats what youre getting at). As if that was a fair assesment. Logical people know the Bulls in the mid 80s werent any good. Which again shows your agenda. How can you on one hand knock the Bulls for not beating the Celtics in 86 and 87 when he didnt have sufficient help because Pippen, Grant, Cartwright, Jackson etc werent there, But then knock their beating the Lakers because Kareem and Coop werent there? You dont see how hypocritical that is? You cant even go a sentence without contradicting yourself.

OK. Since you are fairly intelligent poster on this website (although dreadful as far as agenda) I'll try and get you to have SOME kind of understanding about a different point of view. Although as daRegul8er often comments, it seems that trying to do this is truly a broken reed.

It has nothing to do with the fact that Jordan got beat over and over in the 80s. His teams were poor.

I don't think that Jordan's 1991 (or 98 either) Bulls team could have beaten the Showtime Lakers of the early 80s.
Nor could they have beaten the 1983 Sixers.
Nor could they have beaten the 89 Pistons.
Nor could they have beaten the Celtics of at least a couple years in through there, '86 being only the most obvious.

In my opinion, Mike was 6-0 because he didn't play ANY TEAM OF THAT QUALITY IN THE FINALS. Is that plain enough?

[JellyBean]

Magic Johnson without a doubt. No if, ands, or buts.

[DatAsh]

In my opinion, Mike was 6-0 because he didn't play ANY TEAM OF THAT QUALITY IN THE FINALS. Is that plain enough?

**Edit, I read that wrong

[97 bulls]

OK. Since you are fairly intelligent poster on this website (although dreadful as far as agenda) I'll try and get you to have SOME kind of understanding about a different point of view. Although as daRegul8er often comments, it seems that trying to do this is truly a broken reed.

It has nothing to do with the fact that Jordan got beat over and over in the 80s. His teams were poor.

I don't think that Jordan's 1991 (or 98 either) Bulls team could have beaten the Showtime Lakers of the early 80s.
Nor could they have beaten the 1983 Sixers.
Nor could they have beaten the 89 Pistons.
Nor could they have beaten the Celtics of at least a couple years in through there, '86 being only the most obvious.

In my opinion, Mike was 6-0 because he didn't play ANY TEAM OF THAT QUALITY IN THE FINALS. Is that plain enough?
Thats fair. I disagree obviously but its fair as its your opinion. My only reply to this has always been..... The 87 Lakers, the 86 Celtics, the 83 Sixers, and the 89 Pistons, NEVER PLAYED EACH OTHER. They played a variation of their best team. Just like the Bulls did vs the Lakers and Pistons. Talk to a Celtics fan about them losing to the Lakers in 87 and theyll say the Celtics were hurt (Walton and Mchale). The Sixers fans say the Lakers beat them in 80 cuz they didnt have Moses Malone. The Lakers team the Celtics beat werent all time greats. The Pistons beat the Lakers without Magic and Scott. The Lakers were well on their way to losing to the Pistons before Thomas went down with that sprained ankle. Why hold the Bulls to a different standard? They beat a variation of the Lakers and Pistons. And that 91 team was by no means their best team. Again for emphasis, why hold the Bulls to a standard you dont hold the other teams to?

[OldSchoolBBall]

OK. Since you are fairly intelligent poster on this website (although dreadful as far as agenda) I'll try and get you to have SOME kind of understanding about a different point of view. Although as daRegul8er often comments, it seems that trying to do this is truly a broken reed.

It has nothing to do with the fact that Jordan got beat over and over in the 80s. His teams were poor.

I don't think that Jordan's 1991 (or 98 either) Bulls team could have beaten the Showtime Lakers of the early 80s.
Nor could they have beaten the 1983 Sixers.
Nor could they have beaten the 89 Pistons.
Nor could they have beaten the Celtics of at least a couple years in through there, '86 being only the most obvious.

In my opinion, Mike was 6-0 because he didn't play ANY TEAM OF THAT QUALITY IN THE FINALS. Is that plain enough?

Jordan's first three-peat Bulls would have DESTROYED the '89 or '90 Pistons. Get real - Jordan almost beat those teams practically singlehandedly. Now you're giving him '091-'93 Pippen/Grant et al.?

[La Frescobaldi]

Jordan's first three-peat Bulls would have DESTROYED the '89 or '90 Pistons. Get real - Jordan almost beat those teams practically singlehandedly. Now you're giving him '091-'93 Pippen/Grant et al.?

maybe they would have; I don't think the '91 team would have.