If Lebron Three-Peats, is he the Greatest Forward Ever?

[sammichoffate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgUzkGBkRdc
Thoughts?

[moe94]

No, purely for the asterisk situation that clouds his runs. There are many, if you think about it from shortened seasons, Ray Allen, jamming my finger through the halftime of a specific series, that dude who looked odd in the commercials, etc. Just a circus.

[sammichoffate]

No, purely for the asterisk situation that clouds his runs. There are many, if you think about it from shortened seasons, Ray Allen, jamming my finger through the halftime of a specific series, that dude who looked odd in the commercials, etc. Just a circus.Statistically he has a strong case, but I agree with you. There's always been some sort of asterisk concerning his runs. Of course, guys who go with stats will say he's going to be the GOAT forward ever if he three-peats.

[Mr. Jabbar]

no, although championships do weigh when ranking a player, asterisks dont

[SamuraiSWISH]

He's already clearly better than Magic, he has more longevity on the horizon compared to Bird. His peak is on par with Bird's, arguably better due to defensive abilities. So yea, he has a solid case for best SF ever. Quite easily. Even with his cowardly stacking of the deck in Miami.

[bballnoob1192]

magic is a forward now?

[SamuraiSWISH]

magic is a forward now?
He was pretty much a point forward, just like Pippen, and LeBron for much of his career.

[BigTicket]

Yes, he would be.

If Lebron leads his team to a third straight title, he would move ahead of Bird.

[pauk]

Yea, i think so.. will be just a tad to much of overall everything if you want to try and continue holding him behind Larry Bird.

[fpliii]

He was pretty much a point forward, just like Pippen, and LeBron for much of his career.
Especially when they had Nixon playing alongside him.

[Deuce Bigalow]

No he would still be behind Bird and Duncan. Might crack the top 10 alltime though.

[moe94]

No he would still be behind Bird and Duncan. Might crack the top 10 alltime though.

He'll pass both.

[ArbitraryWater]

I think he already is... wait, cant count this chip, ASTERISK

[Deuce Bigalow]

He'll pass both.
Bird and Duncan each won at least 3 titles without teaming up in their prime and with the franchise that drafted them :biggums: They both also led their team to a title in their second year :biggums:

[CarlosBoozer]

Nope, all his champion rings are manufactured by Stern and his league of alien midgets.

[ArbitraryWater]

Bird and Duncan each won at least 3 titles without teaming up in their prime and with the franchise that drafted them :biggums: They both also led their team to a title in their second year :biggums:

Sooo "teaming up in your prime" is going to be your consistent criteria as of now?

Just wanna check if this sticks... might soon be statistical dominance, or rings again...

[JellyBean]

Yessir

[moe94]

Bird and Duncan each won at least 3 titles without teaming up in their prime and with the franchise that drafted them :biggums: They both also led their team to a title in their second year :biggums:

You can believe whatever you want, as it's purely subjective, but don't get angry when you start seeing the majority rank him higher when it's all said and done.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Sooo "teaming up in your prime" is going to be your consistent criteria as of now?

Just wanna check if this sticks... might soon be statistical dominance, or rings again...
Yes

[Derka]

Pippen three-peated twice. Guess he's the best forward to ever play the game.

[ArbitraryWater]

Pippen three-peated twice. Guess he's the best forward to ever play the game.

I mean, really.... how more retarded can a Poster be?



Please, you're incredibly annoying, fcuk outta here...

[Kiddlovesnets]

He will be top 10 all time for sure, but still below Bird.

[ArbitraryWater]

He will be top 10 all time for sure, but still below Bird.

Bird is simply too good of a scorer, too efficient, too good of a playmaker, defender, longer peak, prime and longevity...

















oh wait (lets go retard mode and have Bird higher none the less)

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Bird and Duncan each won at least 3 titles without teaming up in their prime and with the franchise that drafted them :biggums: They both also led their team to a title in their second year :biggums:
you are being salty right here, let it go:biggums:

[moe94]

You cannot have a reasonable discussion regarding Bird here. People love him too much. LeBron could 6peat and they'd still not let it go.

[qrich]

You cannot have a reasonable discussion regarding Bird here. People love him too much. LeBron could 6peat and they'd still not let it go.

Stop being racist. Bird is gawd.

:rolleyes:

[Odinn]

Bird is simply too good of a scorer, too efficient, too good of a playmaker, defender, longer peak, prime and longevity...

















oh wait (lets go retard mode and have Bird higher none the less)
It is time.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=300564

[ArbitraryWater]

It is time.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=300564

http://i.gyazo.com/c22dd07c549fb66a9a812a8982b17cce.png

I am INCREDIBLY confused as to what you're trying to tell me...


none the less, great argument for Bird :applause:

[moe94]

Stop being racist. Bird is gawd.

:rolleyes:

Honestly can't tell if you're against what I said or with it. :oldlol:

[JohnFreeman]

Already top 10
1 more ring he is better then Bird

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Inb4 ShaqIsGoat writes an essay

[moe94]

Inb4 ShaqIsGoat writes an essay

And I'll read every word of it. :coleman:

[qrich]

Honestly can't tell if you're against what I said or with it. :oldlol:

Neither :oldlol:

Just bored af.

[The-Legend-24]

Yes, but nostalgia fakkits will keep saying Bird. :oldlol:

[DaSeba5]

4 MVPs
3 Titles
Assuming 3 Final MVPs

Yes

[K Xerxes]

Didn't watch Bird's peak, but I've seen a lot of footage of him. Honestly, IMO James has just as high, if not higher, peak. Bird is the most complete offensive player ever and a superior rebounder, shooter and marginally passer, but James is just as good (if not a better) scorer. The big difference comes defensively. James is a superior man to man and help defender. 1 more ring and FMVP, and accolades are firmly in James' favor. Not that I really care about that - all of this combined with his superior longevity, I'm struggling to find arguments for Bird.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Didn't watch Bird's peak, but I've seen a lot of footage of him. Honestly, IMO James has just as high, if not higher, peak. Bird is the most complete offensive player ever and a superior rebounder, shooter and marginally passer, but James is just as good (if not a better) scorer. The big difference comes defensively. James is a superior man to man and help defender. Combined with his obviously superior longevity, I'm struggling to find arguments for Bird.

He's white.

[chris02jammers]

No, purely for the asterisk situation that clouds his runs. There are many, if you think about it from shortened seasons, Ray Allen, jamming my finger through the halftime of a specific series, that dude who looked odd in the commercials, etc. Just a circus.
can you give a link to NBA website that there are * to LeBron's rings?

[Prometheus]

easily

[Marchesk]

I can't help thinking that Dr J was just as good a player on both sides of the ball, but he outside the ABA, he doesn't have the overall stats and accolades to put him up there in the top 10.

[Prometheus]

I can't help thinking that Dr J was just as good a player on both sides of the ball, but he outside the ABA, he doesn't have the overall stats and accolades to put him up there in the top 10.

Julius was great but :facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

At this point, Lebron is only chasing Kareem and Jordan. I feel hes as great as Bird and Magic both (not by much anyway); another title with superstar production, and he's top 5 IMO

[Marchesk]

Julius was great but :facepalm

Julius was better than his NBA numbers.

[Marchesk]

Anyway, everyone knows Durant will be taking Lebron's spot in a few years. :rockon:

[SpecialQue]

He's already clearly better than Magic,

Pretty sure if Lebron got HIV he'd be dead already.

Also, Lebron's also waaaaaaaaaaaay better than Jordan.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He's already clearly better than Magic, he has more longevity on the horizon compared to Bird. His peak is on par with Bird's, arguably better due to defensive abilities. So yea, he has a solid case for best SF ever. Quite easily. Even with his cowardly stacking of the deck in Miami.

If he's "already" better than Magic then he MOST definitely is better than Bird.

[Legends66NBA7]

Who is considered the greatest forward ?

[plowking]

Bird and Duncan each won at least 3 titles without teaming up in their prime and with the franchise that drafted them :biggums: They both also led their team to a title in their second year :biggums:

I bet Bird was dying to get away from the 86 team, right? Anyone else would have left for greener pastures.

Same with Duncan. Must have sucked teaming up with a 20/10 big man in his rookie year.

[PyrrhusX]

Jinx thread:oldlol:

[Odinn]

Didn't watch Bird's peak, but I've seen a lot of footage of him. Honestly, IMO James has just as high, if not higher, peak. Bird is the most complete offensive player ever and a superior rebounder, shooter and marginally passer, but James is just as good (if not a better) scorer. The big difference comes defensively. James is a superior man to man and help defender. 1 more ring and FMVP, and accolades are firmly in James' favor. Not that I really care about that - all of this combined with his superior longevity, I'm struggling to find arguments for Bird.
Then you should have to watch more. It's a suggestion.

Because your opinion highly based on what you've seen from LeBron. Bird is the better help defender. There is no contest about it. And one of the main things in Bird's favour is off-ball play. Bird didn't need to be a ball-dominant player to play that level.

LeBron; better playmaker, better driver, better man defender, better physicality.
Bird; better passer, better rebounder, better low-post player, better shooter, better help defender, better off the ball player.

I know, I listed a longer 'better' things for Bird but their overall impact on the court is pretty close.

Accolades-wise, wouldn't you consider the competition and the circumstances? I mean Bird was winning his MVPs against Magic and Moses primarily. When KAJ was still in his prime, when he won his last MVP in 1980, Bird managed to finish the competition in top 5 despite being a rookie. KAJ-Erving-Moses-Magic-Jordan, pretty tough competition when we think of Bird's prime. I am not trying to discredit LeBron's MVPs. But winning against a Kobe which no longer thinking about the MVP or Rose or Howard or Durant, isn't that much hard.
About FMVP thing, even Jordan and Shaq (those are arguably the greatest peaks after 1980) probably wouldn't get 4 or more FMVPs in the 80s.

Longevity should never be considered for Bird and Magic, IMHO. Their career took huge hits from health issues. We'll never know how their longevity would seem like under normal circumstances.

---


I bet Bird was dying to get away from the 86 team, right? Anyone else would have left for greener pastures.
The Showtime Lakers or the Bad Boys. Those were the teams Bird was fighting for the title. You can add, Dr. J's Sixers, too. There was a serious competition about it. The era was about a super-team vs. a super-team. Although it didn't turn out to be just that easy, there is no doubt LeBron chose the easier way. He tried to create a super-team in a league which doesn't have that kinda competition.


Same with Duncan. Must have sucked teaming up with a 20/10 big man in his rookie year.
Tim Duncan is the only player that was a part of 1998-99 Spurs team and also 2006-07 Spurs team, too.

[bizil]

In NBA history, I think Bron has a great case for best forward ever. Of course it comes down to him, Bird, and Duncan for best forward. I've always felt the top five GOAT were MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, and Russell. But from there u could rank Bron, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq in basically any order damn near.

In terms of OVERALL BASKETBALL HISTORY, I give the nod to Dr. J for the GOAT forward. I give his ABA accolades a lot of weight because of the awesome amount of great players in the ABA and its influence on the NBA (all-star weekend concept, three point line, absorbing multiple ABA teams, etc.) When u look at Doc's career as a whole, I feel he's the most accomplished SF AND had tremendous longevity being an elite player. Even at 36, Doc was an All Star level player who played more in a swingman role than pure SF later at that time. But peak wise, Bron and Bird are the best forwards to ever play.

[AintNoSunshine]

Bird and Duncan each won at least 3 titles without teaming up in their prime and with the franchise that drafted them :biggums: They both also led their team to a title in their second year :biggums:


Because they were drafted by 2 of the 3 most successful franchises in basketball history you dumb kunt, and to play alongside future hall of famers too. Can you say the same for LeGod? He took his fate into his own hand and won in result.

[Rose'sACL]

Then you should have to watch more. It's a suggestion.

Because your opinion highly based on what you've seen from LeBron. Bird is the better help defender. There is no contest about it.
i have watched probably every good game bird played in his career and very few of his bad games outside of the playoffs and he doesn't crack top 30 help defenders of all time while lebron's help defense is one of the main reasons miami is such a good defensive team in the playoffs without a rim protector. lebron is miles ahead of bird in both 1-on-1 and help defense. Stop with this nostalgia.
You are just being ignorant here or just plain hating.

[Odinn]

i have watched probably every good game bird played in his career and very few of his bad games outside of the playoffs and he doesn't crack top 30 help defenders of all time while lebron's help defense is one of the main reasons miami is such a good defensive team in the playoffs without a rim protector. lebron is miles ahead of bird in both 1-on-1 and help defense. Stop with this nostalgia.
You are just being ignorant here or just plain hating.
Yeah. Yeah. Whatever.

[Alan Ogg]

I love Bird, but IF LeBron wins another Finals MVP this year he def ranks higher all-time.

4x MVP
3x Finals MVP
More points, assists, playoff points, and soon more playoff assists in a lot less games than Bird.

[Teanett]

scottie pippen did it twice.

[rmt]

Because they were drafted by 2 of the 3 most successful franchises in basketball history you dumb kunt, and to play alongside future hall of famers too. Can you say the same for LeGod? He took his fate into his own hand and won in result.

Spurs were not one of the 2 or 3 most successful franchises in basketball history before Duncan arrived. They had not won anything in their history. Duncan is the one who turned Spurs into one of the most successful franchises in basketball history.

Duncan won with a 2nd year Parker and SJax, rookie Manu and a broken down 38 year old DRob. Lebron had to team up with all-stars Wade (all-nba, former FMVP) and Bosh to win. Duncan has won 4 rings as the man with no all-nba team mates.

[ArbitraryWater]

scottie pippen did it twice.


Obviously that doesnt matter as he didnt lead the team... LeBron and Bird have all been Nr.1 and beasted in their runs, besides 1981 Bird.

[ArbitraryWater]

Then you should have to watch more. It's a suggestion.

Because your opinion highly based on what you've seen from LeBron. Bird is the better help defender. There is no contest about it.

:biggums: No, god no.. Help defense was certainly his strength, but LeBron is one of the best rotational defenders ever

[r15mohd]

Spurs were not one of the 2 or 3 most successful franchises in basketball history before Duncan arrived. They had not won anything in their history. Duncan is the one who turned Spurs into one of the most successful franchises in basketball history.

Duncan won with a 2nd year Parker and SJax, rookie Manu and a broken down 38 year old DRob. Lebron had to team up with all-stars Wade (all-nba, former FMVP) and Bosh to win. Duncan has won 4 rings as the man with no all-nba team mates.

what you seem to forget to mention is the potential 2nd year Parker and rookie Manu had...there's a reason both are heading to the HoF when their careers are done! :facepalm

name me some players who played alongside Lebron's Cavs that will be in the HoF, in comparison to what Parker and Manu were and became. it's really not that difficult to see this, you're just being naive :confusedshrug:

[K Xerxes]

Then you should have to watch more. It's a suggestion.

Because your opinion highly based on what you've seen from LeBron. Bird is the better help defender. There is no contest about it. And one of the main things in Bird's favour is off-ball play. Bird didn't need to be a ball-dominant player to play that level.

I admit that Bird is an underrated defender, and an incredibly smart one, but he's not better than Lebron from what I've seen. Over the last 5 or so years, Lebron has shown incredible great help defense, especially in the playoffs. A couple of years ago he would shut down half the court because of his presence. His athleticism helps him tremendously in that aspect, along with his savvy.

Maybe I do need to watch more footage of Bird, but it's frankly delusional to suggest there's 'no contest about it'. That suggests a large difference in their ability as a help defender, and I don't think there's ANY perimeter player in history who's a lot better than Lebron as a help defender. Lebron's downfall as a defender is his lazy man to man defense as he gets blown by very easily nowadays, though he does tend to clamp down when it counts.

Good point about being the better off the ball player, that is definitely in Bird's advantage.


LeBron; better playmaker, better driver, better man defender, better physicality.
Bird; better passer, better rebounder, better low-post player, better shooter, better help defender, better off the ball player.

You can say 'better low post player' and 'better shooter', but they are, at best, equal in getting the ball through the hoop. I'd even argue that Lebron is a better scorer, particularly if you look at their playoff numbers.


I know, I listed a longer 'better' things for Bird but their overall impact on the court is pretty close.

I agree. Peak wise, I have them in my '2nd tier' at 6 and 7. Not much separates them.


Accolades-wise, wouldn't you consider the competition and the circumstances? I mean Bird was winning his MVPs against Magic and Moses primarily. When KAJ was still in his prime, when he won his last MVP in 1980, Bird managed to finish the competition in top 5 despite being a rookie. KAJ-Erving-Moses-Magic-Jordan, pretty tough competition when we think of Bird's prime. I am not trying to discredit LeBron's MVPs. But winning against a Kobe which no longer thinking about the MVP or Rose or Howard or Durant, isn't that much hard.

All of Lebron's MVPs would have made strong cases in ANY year. Especially 2010 and 2013, which are two all time great regular seasons.

Anyway, I think comparing accolades across eras is stupid, but people still do it. That's what I mean by 'struggling to find arguments', I'm using what other people would. My criteria comes mainly from their impact on the court (which is why I rank Hakeem so highly even with inferior accolades to the rest of the top 11), not accolades or rings or the like.


Longevity should never be considered for Bird and Magic, IMHO. Their career took huge hits from health issues. We'll never know how their longevity would seem like under normal circumstances.

I agree, longevity only comprises a small part of my criteria, regardless of injuries. I'm just pointing out what others may use as criteria, and some give a lot of weighting to longevity. It is what it is.

[ArbitraryWater]

Then you should have to watch more. It's a suggestion.

Because your opinion highly based on what you've seen from LeBron. Bird is the better help defender. There is no contest about it. And one of the main things in Bird's favour is off-ball play. Bird didn't need to be a ball-dominant player to play that level.

LeBron; better playmaker, better driver, better man defender, better physicality.
Bird; better passer, better rebounder, better low-post player, better shooter, better help defender, better off the ball player.



BTW: The stuff you name for Bird are incredibly weak and irrelevant when it comes to the big picture... Bird is a better passer? No, and LeBron's a better playmaker anyway

Bird's a better help defender? No, and LeBron is still a better defender anyway.

Here: LeBron is faster, quicker, stronger, more agile, better in the open court, etc.

How does that look?

[ArbitraryWater]

And like Xerxes said, so what Bird is better down low or a better shooter? Those are traits of scoring, and I think we all know LeBron is the better scorer... not that close. The big categories go to LeBron, and thats a fact.

[SamuraiSWISH]

If he's "already" better than Magic then he MOST definitely is better than Bird.
You think Magic was easily better than Bird?

:biggums:

[ArbitraryWater]

You think Magic was easily better than Bird?

:biggums:

Definitely come post-season...

Yeah, Magic > Bird all time

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You think Magic was easily better than Bird?

:biggums:

That's not what I said.

But if you think Magic, a top 5 player on MOST all-time lists, has already been passed by Bron THEN certainly he must be better than a top 6-7 guy, no?

[Teanett]

Obviously that doesnt matter as he didnt lead the team... LeBron and Bird have all been Nr.1 and beasted in their runs, besides 1981 Bird.

we all know when push comes to shove, wade is still the leader of this team.
that's why lebron went to miami in the first place.

duncan>bird>pippen>lebron

[SamuraiSWISH]

That's not what I said. But if you think Magic, a top 5 player, in most all-time lists, has already been passed by Bron THEN certainly he must be better than a top 6-7 guy, no?
I think LeBron is top five all-time, as we speak.

I think if Bron were to win a 3rd ring this year. On his 4th Finals trip, something never seen in the modern era ... there is no argument he shouldn't be top five. And hell, let's say he leads his team to another ring next season, 4 in 5 seasons?

I think he's easily top three all-time. Easily.

And I am not even a fan. Think about that level of honesty. I've disliked him since he turned coward to stack the deck in Miami.

[Jlamb47]

Possibly yes. He has 4MVP and thatl put him at 3rings 3FMVP

so i definetly put him as best SF but still behind Duncan

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I think LeBron is top five all-time, as we speak.

I think if Bron were to win a 3rd ring this year. On his 4th Finals trip, something never seen in the modern era ... there is no argument he shouldn't be top five. And hell, let's say he leads his team to another ring next season, 4 in 5 seasons?

I think he's easily top three all-time. Easily.

And I am not even a fan. Think about that level of honesty. I've disliked him since he turned coward to stack the deck in Miami.

I agree with much of this.. just wanted you to elaborate is all.

Sans all-time resumes, Bron is already as good as both. With another title, that would presumingly be 3 Finals MVPs and 4 MVPs... he would definitely be somewhere in the 3-4 range..

I've said repeatedly here, dude's only chasing Kareem and Mike at this point, which means he's got A LONG way to go far as GOAT discussions are concerned.. :cheers:

[T_L_P]

what you seem to forget to mention is the potential 2nd year Parker and rookie Manu had...there's a reason both are heading to the HoF when their careers are done! :facepalm

Yeah, because TP or Manu are really HoFers without Duncan being there.

[rmt]

what you seem to forget to mention is the potential 2nd year Parker and rookie Manu had...there's a reason both are heading to the HoF when their careers are done! :facepalm

name me some players who played alongside Lebron's Cavs that will be in the HoF, in comparison to what Parker and Manu were and became. it's really not that difficult to see this, you're just being naive :confusedshrug:

Lol, POTENTIAL? Think potential was helping Duncan when he carried the Spurs to the championship in 03? He didn't have to live with the dumb mistakes, dumb turnovers, lack of experience, Parker sitting on the bench during the whole last quarter of the 6th (last) game of the NBA Finals while Speedy Claxton took his place? Parker played a total of 24 mins in that game - hit 2 of 6 for a -10.

And you think Manu turns the ball over now, what'd you think he did when he was a rookie? Spurs lost so many huge leads that year because of the inexperience of the cast. This is what they WERE in 03 - did what they BECAME help back then?

Difference with the Cavs is that Duncan led that inexperienced cast to a championship and Lebron had to bail out of Cleveland to go join all-stars (all-nba, former FMVP) Wade and Bosh in Miami to win a ring.

[scm5]

If he threepeats, it makes sense to put Lebron over Bird to me.

Better stats, better defense, more accolades.

However, I can't put him above Duncan. It just doesn't make sense to me. Duncan isn't what Lebron is offensively, but he's close. Defensively, Duncan has been on another level and criminally underrated his entire career. I think it's a culmination of last years playoffs (even though it resulted in a loss) and this years run so far. Duncan to me, has moved ahead of Kobe (for those that put him below Kobe), Shaq, and even Bird to me.

I don't know how anyone could argue Tim Duncan out of a Top 5 spot. He's been incredible each and every year he's been in the NBA. His stats are there. His defense is right there with the absolute best of them. He's got the accolades and titles. Excellence every single year.

If TD wins it all this year, I would put him right below MJ and Kareem. Hell, he might be there right now.

[comerb]

He already is. The only person that's arguable is Bird, and he wasn't a very good two way player.

Duncan is a good argument, but Duncan is more of a center than a forward.

[bizil]

I respect Larry Bird greatly no question about it. His career statline of 24 points, 10 boards, and six dimes is the most impressive line of any perimeter player ever. But I think people need to realize that GOAT wise, he could actually be rated as low as nine or even ten now as we speak. It's just not a given that he should be ranked over guys like Kobe, Shaq, Tim, or LeBron. All those guys have a great case to be rated over Bird. So even if Bron passes Bird as the GOAT SF FOR SURE this year, does Bron deserve to be rated over Duncan, Shaq, or Kobe as of now? Hell NO! Kobe has five rings and ranks fourth in career points. Shaq has four rings and is sixth in career points. Duncan has four rings and multiple MVP's and finals MVP's. Bird's career being cut short impacted him more than it did Magic. Magic had five rings and was still a top 2-3 player in the world when he bowed out in '91.

[bizil]

If he threepeats, it makes sense to put Lebron over Bird to me.

Better stats, better defense, more accolades.

However, I can't put him above Duncan. It just doesn't make sense to me. Duncan isn't what Lebron is offensively, but he's close. Defensively, Duncan has been on another level and criminally underrated his entire career. I think it's a culmination of last years playoffs (even though it resulted in a loss) and this years run so far. Duncan to me, has moved ahead of Kobe (for those that put him below Kobe), Shaq, and even Bird to me.

I don't know how anyone could argue Tim Duncan out of a Top 5 spot. He's been incredible each and every year he's been in the NBA. His stats are there. His defense is right there with the absolute best of them. He's got the accolades and titles. Excellence every single year.

If TD wins it all this year, I would put him right below MJ and Kareem. Hell, he might be there right now.


Great point! I think Duncan has a great case to be rated as high as #6 GOAT wise as of right now. Under MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, and Russell. For years, Bird was in that top 6 and rightfully so. But guys like Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, and Bron have come along and built careers that you could rank over Bird. I think what Bird did for the NBA in terms of mainstream appeal and his peak value was very epic. But a guy like Duncan I feel has passed him GOAT wise, and I think Kobe, Shaq, and Bron likely have too.

[LeFraud James]

He's already clearly better than Magic, he has more longevity on the horizon compared to Bird. His peak is on par with Bird's, arguably better due to defensive abilities. So yea, he has a solid case for best SF ever. Quite easily. Even with his cowardly stacking of the deck in Miami.

As much as I hate to agree with this....

[jzek]

No, Bird still is the greatest (small) forward.

Ask yourself this question - game 7, 5 seconds left. Would you rather have LeBron or Bird take the last shot?

Of course you'd say Bird and therefore, Bird > LeBron.

[SilkkTheShocker]

No, Bird still is the greatest (small) forward.

Ask yourself this question - game 7, 5 seconds left. Would you rather have LeBron or Bird take the last shot?

Of course you'd say Bird and therefore, Bird > LeBron.

You're a ****ing moron, dude. :oldlol: Just a Jordan stan riding that era

[r15mohd]

Yeah, because TP or Manu are really HoFers without Duncan being there.

is Duncan in the top10 if Manu or TP isn't there, it goes both ways :rolleyes:

[r15mohd]

Lol, POTENTIAL? Think potential was helping Duncan when he carried the Spurs to the championship in 03? He didn't have to live with the dumb mistakes, dumb turnovers, lack of experience, Parker sitting on the bench during the whole last quarter of the 6th (last) game of the NBA Finals while Speedy Claxton took his place? Parker played a total of 24 mins in that game - hit 2 of 6 for a -10.

And you think Manu turns the ball over now, what'd you think he did when he was a rookie? Spurs lost so many huge leads that year because of the inexperience of the cast. This is what they WERE in 03 - did what they BECAME help back then?

Difference with the Cavs is that Duncan led that inexperienced cast to a championship and Lebron had to bail out of Cleveland to go join all-stars (all-nba, former FMVP) Wade and Bosh in Miami to win a ring.

Love how you nitpick 1-game to ridicule TP (even tho he had 2 bad games that series)...in those same Finals against the Nets, TP also had:

16/5
21/5
26/6
14/4

you had a better case using Manu as lack of potential, but he came off the bench so even that would be flawed...as a PG in a Finals, TP did pretty good (especially considering he was a rookie) stop shadowing him with TD, we all know TD's the best PF to play the game...but to think he had no help that series is Stephen A (asinine!)

[Bandito]

You're a ****ing moron, dude. :oldlol: Just a Jordan stan riding that era
He knows his history beyond 2010 give him a break:lol

[Odinn]

Love how you nitpick 1-game to ridicule TP (even tho he had 2 bad games that series)...in those same Finals against the Nets, TP also had:

16/5
21/5
26/6
14/4

you had a better case using Manu as lack of potential, but he came off the bench so even that would be flawed...as a PG in a Finals, TP did pretty good (especially considering he was a rookie) stop shadowing him with TD, we all know TD's the best PF to play the game...but to think he had no help that series is Stephen A (asinine!)
I have the entire 2003 and 2005 Finals. I can upload them if you want. Then you can see how TP was benched in the crunch times.

Idiot. All you can do is reading boxscores or checking bkref. And you even can not do it properly. TP was a sophomore in 2002-03 season. Do not act like you know a shit.

[Black and White]

If LeBron 3-peats he is tied with Bird IMO, he will sit in the top 6-8 all-time.

[Solefade]

If LeBron 3-peats he is tied with Bird IMO, he will sit in the top 6-8 all-time.

what argument do you have for bird over bron if bron 3peats?





over bird, right underneath magic IMO

[fpliii]

I have the entire 2003 and 2005 Finals. I can upload them if you want. Then you can see how TP was benched in the crunch times.

Idiot. All you can do is reading boxscores or checking bkref. And you even can not do it properly. TP was a sophomore in 2002-03 season. Do not act like you know a shit.
:applause:

03 is unquestionably one of the all-time one-man runs. People need to stop looking at the names on the roster and contextless box scores, and look at the actual production.

[red1]

absolutely. greatest headband wearing black man over 6'7

[Black and White]

what argument do you have for bird over bron if bron 3peats?





over bird, right underneath magic IMO

I just put it into context, I try not to get involved in rankings like this because its more about opinon and stuff, bur Bird winning 3 rings for the Celtics is about equal to LeBrons accomplishments, if Bron wins MVP next year as well then it is unanimous in my book.

[Solefade]

I just put it into context, I try not to get involved in rankings like this because its more about opinon and stuff, bur Bird winning 3 rings for the Celtics is about equal to LeBrons accomplishments, if Bron wins MVP next year as well then it is unanimous in my book.

yeah but a 3 peat and more MVPs? i thought it was pretty clear cut if bron wins one more and especially if it's 3 in a row.

[Black and White]

yeah but a 3 peat and more MVPs? i thought it was pretty clear cut if bron wins one more and especially if it's 3 in a row.

Yea, I guess so but again, context is important, its rather sad though, Birds career was so short and he was still putting up great numbers with a stuffed back. If only he never had that issue.....

[Odinn]

I admit that Bird is an underrated defender, and an incredibly smart one, but he's not better than Lebron from what I've seen. Over the last 5 or so years, Lebron has shown incredible great help defense, especially in the playoffs. A couple of years ago he would shut down half the court because of his presence. His athleticism helps him tremendously in that aspect, along with his savvy.

Maybe I do need to watch more footage of Bird, but it's frankly delusional to suggest there's 'no contest about it'. That suggests a large difference in their ability as a help defender, and I don't think there's ANY perimeter player in history who's a lot better than Lebron as a help defender. Lebron's downfall as a defender is his lazy man to man defense as he gets blown by very easily nowadays, though he does tend to clamp down when it counts.
I didn't mean a large difference. What I meant was the gap being in Bird's favour and it's clear. It's like comparing Shaq and Duncan peak-wise. The gap isn't huge but clear.




Good point about being the better off the ball player, that is definitely in Bird's advantage.

You can say 'better low post player' and 'better shooter', but they are, at best, equal in getting the ball through the hoop. I'd even argue that Lebron is a better scorer, particularly if you look at their playoff numbers.
Like I already said, their overall impact on the court is pretty close. But I wouldn't use LeBron's numbers vs. Bird's numbers straight up due to Bird's off the ball play. Bird didn't need ball and the numbers to be that good. Tho, I agree that LeBron's scoring volume is a bit better.




I agree. Peak wise, I have them in my '2nd tier' at 6 and 7. Not much separates them.
I wonder how you can not put Bird into the top tier. I can be OK with Bird being 6th because there are 6 major candidates for the goat peak, IMO. Jordan, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Wilt and Bird. But if I use tiers for the ranking these 6 are the top tier, then Duncan&LeBron in the 2nd tier.




All of Lebron's MVPs would have made strong cases in ANY year. Especially 2010 and 2013, which are two all time great regular seasons.
I'm not diminishing the value of LeBron's MVPs. But the competition always matters when we talk of achievements. There wasn't any top 10-15 ever caliber player which in his prime besides Durant.

A quote from 2013 playoffs time;


I do not think exactly. But he has a case. And let's not act like peak Moses doesn't have a case.

My arguments against LeBron;
- The rules that highly LeBron benefits from them.
- He plays at PF but big men are just the weakest era in the history. Can you think of LeBron playing at PF in early 2000s and still being this good/effective against prime Duncan, prime Garnett, prime Webber, early-prime Nowitzki? Webber and Nowitzki were not defensive beasts but they would put some serious pressure on the other end.
- There wasn't a single span in the history that has 1 or 2 top 15-20 candidate(s). And I do not think Durant is a strong candidate.

Other than now, LeBron ain't gonna average 27/8/7 on 56.5%. His volume goes down if he wants to keep his efficiency. Or his efficiency goes down if he wants to keep his scoring volume.
He gets the MVPs that he suppose to get. He wins the rings that he suppose to win.
Tho, Durant proved me wrong. He's a top 10-15 caliber player, other points stand still for me.




Anyway, I think comparing accolades across eras is stupid, but people still do it. That's what I mean by 'struggling to find arguments', I'm using what other people would. My criteria comes mainly from their impact on the court (which is why I rank Hakeem so highly even with inferior accolades to the rest of the top 11), not accolades or rings or the like.
Even though all media awards are subjective, they suggest a good point of view when you factor the context. That's why I don't think comparing accolades is meaningless.

Sure, my opinion about a player is hugely based on his best and the span his best lasted.



I agree, longevity only comprises a small part of my criteria, regardless of injuries. I'm just pointing out what others may use as criteria, and some give a lot of weighting to longevity. It is what it is.
I take longevity into account. But don't for the exceptional and unfortunate players like Magic, Bird and even Reed.

[AnaheimLakers24]

being the first team to 3peat when all the rings are asteriks is quite the accomplishment

batman and gay boy bran should be proud. still a super duper mega colossal ultra might as well kill your self since you failed failure after not winning 8

[ArbitraryWater]

Wow, this thread just made me lose all respect for this Odinn poster :applause:

[sammichoffate]

I'm sorry I brought the question up guys :lol

[Odinn]

If you are not capable of handling a few posts that standing against your favourite, be my guest and do not have respect for me. And even put me into your ignore list.