"People said that Wilt tended to choke; well, he did."

[Deuce Bigalow]

From Roland Lazanby's book "Jerry West: The Life and Legend of a Basketball Icon"

People said that Wilt tended to choke; well he did. This is not revisionist history, this is reality.
http://books.google.com/books?id=R4CEXQCvI_cC&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=wilt+choke&source=bl&ots=c4uBIwocha&sig=N6qLjFGH1fUgN67e9frTi6AB7ew&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tCBaU96zOcGgyATH4IGoBA&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA

http://static.gamespot.com/uploads/scale_medium/767/7672287/2450994-9258833253-13928.gif

[Suguru101]

Don't need West to admit it... Just read the stories and look at the numbers, it's all there.

[MMM]

who the **** cares about Wilt
we are in the middle of the 2014 nba playoffs

Wilt hasn't played in 40+ years
why are you going on and on about him when very few really give a shit????????????????

[Deuce Bigalow]

Its quite clear that Wilt was a choker.

[LAZERUSS]

Don't need West to admit it... Just read the stories and look at the numbers, it's all there.

WEST didn't make that claim. It was some idiot by the name of Doug Krikorian. Who the hell has heard of that jackass?

BTW, he obviously did not see game seven of the '69 Finals, either, when Chamberlain easily outplayed Russell. BTW, where was RUSSELL in that 4th quarter of that game? He was HIDING, somewhere out of sight on the court. Go ahead and watch that game seven on YouTube, and get back to me.

Oh, and here was WEST's take on Wilt in 1999...

http://www.nba.com/history/wilt_appreciation.html


"He was the most unbelievable center to ever play the game in terms of domination and intimidation. There's no one that's ever played the game better than Wilt Chamberlain. This was a man for all ages."

[Kiddlovesnets]

Why do you keep hating on Wilt? Hes a top 2 player in NBA history, be lucky he actually brought you a title.
:rolleyes:

[Prometheus]

for real why do you keep making threads about wilt chamberlain? we know how you feel cuz, you can shut the **** up now

[LAZERUSS]

How about this RESEARCHED topic...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332617

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's overall stats in his 23 post-season "elimination games."


Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

Yep...Wilt the choker.

[LAZERUSS]

And how about Wilt's LAST post-season games in each year, as well as his opposing center's numbers?


Wilt played in 29 post-season series.

Here is his, and his opposing starting center's known numbers, in the LAST GAME of each series (clinching win, or loss)...

'60: Philly vs. Syracuse: 132-112 W
Kerr: 7 pts.
Wilt: 53 points, 22 rebounds, 24-42 FG/FGA

Note: Kerr and Dierking, combined, shot .298 from the field in that series

60: Philly vs Boston: 117-119 L
Russell: 25 pts, 25 rebs, 11-26 FG/FGA
Wilt: 26 pts, 24 rebs, 8-18 FG/FGA



'61: Philly vs. Syracuse: 103-106 L
Kerr-Halbrook combined for 13 pts.
Wilt: 33 pts, 23 rebs, 13-29 FG/FGA



'62: Philly vs Syracuse: 121-104 W
Kerr: 20 pts
Wilt: 56 pts, 35 rebs, 22-48 FG/FGA

'62: Philly vs. Boston: 107-109 L
Russell: 19 pts, 22 rebs, 7-14 FG/FGA
Wilt: 22 pts, 22 rebs, 7-15 FG/FGA



'64: SF vs. St. Louis: 105-95 W
Beaty: 10 pts.
Wilt: 39 pts, 30 rebs, 19-29 FG/FGA

'64: SF vs Boston: 99-105 L
Russell: 14 pts, 26 rebs, 5-11 FG/FGA
Wilt: 30 pts, 27 rebs, 12-28 FG/FGA


'65: Philly vs Cincinnati: 119-112 W
Embry: 7 pts
Wilt: 38 pts, 26 rebs, 14-22 FG/FGA

'65: Philly vs Boston: 109-110 L
Russell: 15 pts, 29 rebs, 7-16 FG/FGA
Wilt: 30 pts, 32 rebs, 12-15 FG/FGA



'66: Philly vs. Boston: 112-120 L
Russell: 18 pts, 31 rebs
Wilt: 46 pts, 34 rebs, 19-34 FG/FGA



'67: Philly vs. Cincinnati: 112-94 W
Dierking: 8 pts, 9 rebs, 4-14 FG/FGA
Wilt: 18 pts, 27 rebs, 7-14 FG/FGA

'67: Philly vs. Boston: 140-116 W
Russell: 4 pts, 21 rebs, 2-5 FG/FGA
Wilt: 29 pts, 36 rebs., 10-16 FG/FGA

'67: Philly vs SF: 125-122 W
Thurmond: 12 pts, 22 rebs, 4-13 FG/FGA
Wilt: 24 pts, 23 rebs, 8-13 FG/FGA


'68: Philly vs NY: 113-97 W
Bellamy: 19 pts, 22 rebs
Wilt: 25 pts, 27 rebs. 10-19 FG/FGA

'68: Philly vs. Boston: 96-100 L
Russell: 12 pts, 26 rebs, 4-6 FG/FGA
Wilt: 14 pts, 34 rebs, 4-9 FG/FGA


'69: LA vs. SF: 118-78
Thurmond: 8 pts, 14 rebs, 3-13 FG/FGA
Wilt: 11 pts, 25 rebs, 5-9 FG/FGA

'69: LA vs. Atlanta: 104-96 W
Beaty: 30 pts.
Chamberlain: 16 pts, 29 rebs, 5-11 FG/FGA

'69: LA vs. Boston: 106-108 L
Russell: 6 pts, 21 rebs, 2-7 FG/FGA
Wilt: 18 pts, 27 rebs, 7-8 FG/FGA


'70: LA vs. Phoenix: 129-94 W
Walk: 12 pts.
Wilt: 30 pts, 27 rebs., 11-18 FG/FGA

'70 LA vs. Atlanta: 133-114 W
Bellamy: 19 pts, 16 rebs
Wilt: 11 pts, 21 rebs, 5-10 FG/FGA

'70: LA vs. NY: 99-113 L
Reed: 4 pts, 3 rebs, 2-5 FG/FGA
Wilt: 21 pts, 24 rebs, 10-16 FG/FGA


'71: LA vs. Chicago: 109-98 W
Jim Fox: 17 pts
Wilt: 25 pts, 19 rebs, 7-12 FG/FGA

'71: LA vs. Milwaukee: 98-116 L
Kareem: 20 pts, 15 rebs, 7-23 FG/FGA
Wilt: 23 pts, 12 rebs, 10-21 FG/FGA


'72: LA vs. Chicago: 108-97 W
Ray: 20 pts.
Wilt: 8 pts, 31 rebs, 4-6 FG/FGA

'72: LA vs. Milwaukee: 104-100 W
Kareem: 37 pts, 25 rebs, 16-37 FG/FGA
Wilt: 20 pts, 24 rebs, 8-12 FG/FGA

'72: LA vs. NY: 114-100 W
Lucas: 14 pts, 9 rebs, 5-14 FG/FGA
Wilt: 24 pts, 29 rebs, 10-14 FG/FGA


'73: LA vs. Chicago: 95-92 W
Ray: 4 pts
Wilt: 21 pts, 28 rebs, 10-17 FG/FGA

'73: LA vs. Golden St.: 128-118 W
Thurmond: 9 pts, 14 rebs, 2-9 FG/FGA
Wilt: 5 pts, 22 rebs, 2-2 FG/FGA

'73: LA vs. NY: 93-102 L
Reed: 18 pts, 12 rebs, 9-16 FG/FGA
Wilt: 23 pts, 21 rebs, 9-16 FG/FGA

[LAZERUSS]

And...


Wilt actually played in 37 "elimination games",...games where either his team faced elimination, or could have clinched the series:

1. W: 53-22-2, 24-42 FG/FGA

2. W: 50-35-2, 22-42

3. L: 26-24-0, 8-18

4. L: 33-23-1, 13-29

5. W: 56-35-1, 22-48

6. W: 32-21-1, 12-29

7. L: 22-22-3, 7-15

8. W: 39-30-?, 19-29

9. L: 30-27-2, 12-28

10. W: 38-26-5, 14-22, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

11. W: 30-26-4, 13-22, 13 blks (Triple-Double)

12. L: 30-32-2, 12-15

13. L: 46-34-?, 19-34

14. W: 18-27-9, 7-14

15. W: 29-36-13, 10-16, 7 blks (Triple-Double)

16. W: 24-23-4, 8-13

17. W: 25-27-3, 10-19

18. L: 28-30-7, 11-21

19. L: 20-27-8, 6-21

20. L: 14-34-5, 4-9

21. W: 11-25-1, 5-9

22. W: 16-29-3, 5-11, 16 blks (Triple-Double)

23. L: 8-18-4, 1-5

24. L: 18-27-3, 7-8

25. W: 36-14-3, 12-20

26. W: 12-26-11, 4-11, 11 blks (Quad-Double)

27. W: 30-27-6, 11-18, 11 blks (Triple-Double)

28. W: 45-27-3, 20-27

29. L: 21-24-4, 10-16

30. W: 25-19-9, 7-12

31. L: 23-12-4, 10-21

32. W: 8-31-8, 4-6

33. W: 20-24-2, 8-12, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

34. W: 24-29-4, 10-14, 8 blks

35. W: 21-28-4, 10-17, 8 blks

36. W: 5-22-7, 2-2

37. L: 23-21-3, 9-16


W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

29.5 ppg

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)

[Prometheus]

And how about Wilt's LAST post-season games in each year, as well as his opposing center's numbers?

Do you enjoy jumping through hoops for Deuce Bigalow?

[LAZERUSS]

Do you enjoy jumping through hoops for Deuce Bigalow?

Not so much for him...he already KNOWS that Chamberlain was the most dominant player in NBA history (and only MJ has a case over him in the post-season)...

but just in case there are some posters here who might actually believe his trolling.

[Psileas]

WEST didn't make that claim. It was some idiot by the name of Doug Krikorian. Who the hell has heard of that jackass?

BTW, he obviously did not see game seven of the '69 Finals, either, when Chamberlain easily outplayed Russell. BTW, where was RUSSELL in that 4th quarter of that game? He was HIDING, somewhere out of sight on the court. Go ahead and watch that game seven on YouTube, and get back to me.

Oh, and here was WEST's take on Wilt in 1999...

http://www.nba.com/history/wilt_appreciation.html



Lol, Krikorian (who, btw, was just starting his career back then) has brought up the same crap that we've dealt with multiple times. He mentions the 1968 case of the Sixers blowing up the 3-1 lead and offers it as a prime example of Wilt choking. We have analyzed this issue far more and read far more details than what Krikorian mentions. We found cases in which Wilt definitely underperformed and others when he definitely didn't, yet they're unjustly all put in the same sentence. My guess is, Krikorian, who seems more like a journalist involved with California sports in general rather than an NBA historian, did as "good" of a job as an average "jack of all trades, master of none" media guy would: He read the raw stats, he remembers what pretty much is mentioned everywhere, without lots of details, and draws equally raw and inaccurate conclusions.
I don't know if Wilt played "horribly" and Russell "outplayed him" in Game 7 (I suspect exaggeration), but what I saw in the 4th quarter is him doing more than Russell.

[Deuce Bigalow]

The facts are quite clear. The highest choking rating of all-time. Any way you want to look at "choking", Wilt comes out on top.

[Marchesk]

The facts are quite clear. The highest choking rating of all-time. Any way you want to look at "choking", Wilt comes out on top.

So which GOAT big are you on about now? Is it Kareem's turn to stan?

[Mr. Jabbar]

wilt invented choking, bran mastered it

[CavaliersFTW]

From Roland Lazanby's book "Jerry West: The Life and Legend of a Basketball Icon"

http://books.google.com/books?id=R4CEXQCvI_cC&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=wilt+choke&source=bl&ots=c4uBIwocha&sig=N6qLjFGH1fUgN67e9frTi6AB7ew&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tCBaU96zOcGgyATH4IGoBA&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA

http://static.gamespot.com/uploads/scale_medium/767/7672287/2450994-9258833253-13928.gif
Neither west nor lazenby said that, some other jilted LA writer did, it's the same media fluff you hear today from guys like skip bayless. Jerry west himself would disagree with that quote, he's always made an effort to mention wilt was unfairly chastised and criticized by the media nothing new to see here.

[aj1987]

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Credit: Deuce Bigalow


most overrated player of all time. Borderline top 10. Russell = #1/#2 GOAT. Wilt = Glorified Kevin Love.


GOAT stat padder though!

[millwad]

WEST didn't make that claim. It was some idiot by the name of Doug Krikorian. Who the hell has heard of that jackass?

BTW, he obviously did not see game seven of the '69 Finals, either, when Chamberlain easily outplayed Russell. BTW, where was RUSSELL in that 4th quarter of that game? He was HIDING, somewhere out of sight on the court. Go ahead and watch that game seven on YouTube, and get back to me.

Oh, and here was WEST's take on Wilt in 1999...

http://www.nba.com/history/wilt_appreciation.html



Oh, shut up.

Wilt was a massive choker and don't come up with any excuses for the '69 finals. While Jerry West was playing crazy good and averaging 38 Points, 5 rebound and 7 assistss per game in that series you had Wilt choking it all away from the freaking FT-line.

In game 4, Jerry West scored 40 Points while Wilt the choker only put up with 8 Points on 2 of 11 shooting from the FT-line. That is beyond pathetic and they lost that game with 1 Point.

[mr.big35]

why is there threads about wilt he is not playing anymore let it go

[Marlo_Stanfield]

people also said OP is the biggest fa@g to ever grace this earth. and damn they were right:applause:

[Deuce Bigalow]

people also said OP is the biggest fa@g to ever grace this earth. and damn they were right:applause:
People were talking about you brah.

[millwad]

people also said OP is the biggest fa@g to ever grace this earth. and damn they were right:applause:

Has nothing to do with this topic but just realized that you average 50 posts per day, time to go out and get some friends..

[aj1987]

People were talking about you brah.
:applause:

[deja vu]

How the heck is Wilt the most dominant in the playoffs with only MJ having a case over him? When his numbers dropped significantly in the postseason? Almost every all-time great increased their production in the postseason.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Its quite clear that Wilt was a choker.

I'm pretty sure he choked a lot of women's throats in the 60s and 70s.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I'm pretty sure he choked a lot of women's throats in the 60s and 70s.
Doug Krikorian:

[Deuce Bigalow]

WEST didn't make that claim. It was some idiot by the name of Doug Krikorian. Who the hell has heard of that jackass?

BTW, he obviously did not see game seven of the '69 Finals, either, when Chamberlain easily outplayed Russell. BTW, where was RUSSELL in that 4th quarter of that game? He was HIDING, somewhere out of sight on the court. Go ahead and watch that game seven on YouTube, and get back to me.

Oh, and here was WEST's take on Wilt in 1999...

http://www.nba.com/history/wilt_appreciation.html


:roll:

And you know better than him huh? He actually watched Wilt play. You read boxscores :oldlol:


A former L.A. reporter Doug Krikorian, who covered the Lakers during Wilt's time there and who was a close personal friend of Wilt's, wrote the following:
http://www.concordmonitor.com/news/4391916-95/wiltchamberlain

West's quote was after Wilt died. How about some quotes from him during his playing days?

[Deuce Bigalow]

How the heck is Wilt the most dominant in the playoffs with only MJ having a case over him? When his numbers dropped significantly in the postseason? Almost every all-time great increased their production in the postseason.
Wilt's not even close to being a top 5 playoff performer, nor is he even top 10, so forget GOAT :oldlol:

[GimmeThat]

who were some of the better or great coaches in that era?

somehow hardly none comes to mind in terms of great professional coach prodigies in that era.

[deja vu]

Wilt's not even close to being a top 5 playoff performer, nor is he even top 10, so forget GOAT :oldlol:
Lazeruss and other Wilt lovers will say that he faced swarming double and triple teams or his coach is a dumbass or he was asked to focus more on defense. They will never say that he choked. :roll:

It's as if Wilt was the only one who got swarmed in the playoffs. :lol

[becken]

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTQ4NjYwODU5MF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMTM1MDEzMQ@@._ V1_SY317_CR5,0,214,317_AL_.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

How the heck is Wilt the most dominant in the playoffs with only MJ having a case over him? When his numbers dropped significantly in the postseason? Almost every all-time great increased their production in the postseason.


How many of them were putting up 50-40-38 ppg regular seasons? How many of them were leading the league in scoring seven times, FG% nine times, and rebounding 11 times?

How many of them had FOUR complete playoffs with 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37 ppg? How many of them had 30+ ppg and 30+ rpg post-season series? How many of them had EIGHT entire playoff runs of 24.7+ rpg? How many of them played in 29 post-season series, and outrebounded their opposing starting center in all 29 of them (and some by unfathomable margins)? How many of them had SIX playoff series of 28+ ppg and 23 rpg? How many of them had FOUR playoff series in which they scored 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 39 ppg and 39 ppg? How many of them had EIGHT playoff runs of 20+ ppg and 20+ rpg? How many of them had THIRTEEN post-seasons in which they averaged 20+ rpg? How many of them had FOUR 50+ point games? How many of them had THREE 50+ point games in "elimination" games? And how many of them had FIVE 40+ point games in "elimination" games, including a 45 point game in a Finals? How many of them played in 23 "elimination" games, and averaged 31.1 ppg, and shot .540 from the field in them?

And, as I said before, Chamberlain faced RUSSELL EIGHT times, and all but one were either in the first, or the second round. Why is that important? Because MJ's scoring and efficiecny took a nose-dive against the "Bad Boys" in his FOUR straight playoff series against them. Shaq's scoring and efficiency took a huge hit when he battled the Spurs in his FIVE playoff series between '99 and '04. And a peak Kareem's dropped dramatically in his FIVE playoff series against an old Wilt and an aging Thurmond. STEEP decline. Or how about Kobe in his Finals? His FG%'s dropped like the Zeppelin, ...and as bad they were in those series, they were FAR worse in the biggest games of them.

And how many of them shredded their knee, had major surgery, came back way ahead of schedule, and then averaged 12.7 ppg, 6.0 rpg, and shot .500 in their regular season games, post-surgery...and then went on to have a seven game Finals of 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 eFG%, which included a "must win" game six of 45 points, on 20-27 FG/FGA, with 27 rebounds? How many other players basically raised their level of play in a Finals by over 10 ppg, 18 rpg, and 12% from the field?

How many of them ended a Dynasty's eight year title run, and in a resounding fashion...all while absolutely crushing the architect? How many of them ended what was supposed to be a certain dynasty for years to come, before it ever got off the ground (the '72 Bucks)?

And of course, how many of them played in 29 post-season, and either outplayed, or downright dominated their opposing center, who was most often a HOFer, in the vast majority of them?

A "scoring" Wilt STILL averaged over 30 ppg and over 50% shooting against a prime Russell, and in an era when the post-season NBA was averaging about a .420 eFG%.

And keep in mind that Wilt's TEAM's lost to the eventual champion in TEN of his 13 post-seasons. At least he had an excuse when they were losing to the Celtics SEVEN times, or the '70 Knicks, or the '71 Bucks. How about Shaq getting swept six times, and playing poorly against Ostertag in a 4-1 series blowout loss? Or Bird losing with HCA SEVEN times, including being swept by an under-dog Bucks team? Or the great Hakeem losing in the first round EIGHT times, and to opposing centers like Eaton, Thompson, AC Green, and Oliver Miller?

Had Wilt had the "good fortune" to have been knocked out in the first round, as Hakeem routinely was, during his six playoffs during his scoring seasons, he would have averaged 34.6 ppg in those years.

Or had Wilt played in an era with pure crap teams making the playoffs, his 62-63 Warriors probably would have qualified (MJ's 85-86 Bulls had a worse record and they made it), in a season in which Chamberlain averaged 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting. Oh, and give Wilt a consistent 3-4 playoff rounds every season, much as the other HOF players would have later on, and he likely would have scored much more.

I have said it before, but had Wilt played in the Western Conference in his entire seven "scoring seasons", and he likely would hold every playoff scoring record. Why? Because Russell used to kill the Lakers in those years, and as great as Russell was against them, Chamberlain was FAR more dominant. From '62 thru '66, when Russell put up his best post-season series of his career against LA...Chamberlain had entire seasons, covering between nine and 12 games, in which he averaged 51.6 ppg, 48.6 ppg, 44.3 ppg, 29.9 ppg, and 40.8 ppg against the Lakers. Hell, Wilt had SIX games of 60+ against LA, including TWO of 70+ in that span. As it was, in his one post-season in the Western Conference, he annihilated the Hawks with a seven game series of 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and on a .559 FG% (in a post-season NBA that averaged 106 ppg on a .420 eFG%.)

And in the decade of the 60's, Chamberlain faced Russell and Thurmond (just ask KAJ about Nate), TEN times in his 18 playoff series...and he STILL averaged 26.4 ppg in all eighteen series. Take those two out of it, and his he would have scored 31 ppg in that span.

So, yes, Wilt was, at worst, the second greatest post-season player of all-time, and only MJ has an case over him.

[coin24]

Oh cool another thread full of jlauber chaimberlain crapping on about wilt McGee :facepalm

[Jameerthefear]

:roll: another LEGEND weighs in on the myth that is the "great" Wilt Chamberlain. Wilt has now moved down to the #10 spot in my alltime list :oldlol: that is just pathetic.

[LAZERUSS]

:roll: another LEGEND weighs in on the myth that is the "great" Wilt Chamberlain. Wilt has now moved down to the #10 spot in my alltime list :odlol: that is just pathetic.

You mean Krekorian "the legend?"

I bet you never heard of the guy, nor has anyone else on this forum.

BTW, if you have Wilt at #10, your list is a POS.

[coin24]

MJ
Kaj
Russell
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Pau

The no chokers alpha only club. Sorry bran and wilt stans

[Jameerthefear]

MJ
Kaj
Russell
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Pau

The no chokers alpha only club. Sorry bran and wilt stans
Take bean off that list. He's one of the biggest chokers to ever play basketball.

[Jameerthefear]

You mean Krekorian "the legend?"

I bet you never heard of the guy, nor has anyone else on this forum.

BTW, if you have Wilt at #10, your list is a POS.
My list is one of the most cited lists on this forum.

[coin24]

Take bean off that list. He's one of the biggest chokers to ever play basketball.

You're just salty he embarrassed the scrub magic in 09:lol

[LAZERUSS]

MJ
Kaj
Russell
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Pau

The no chokers alpha only club. Sorry bran and wilt stans

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Bird...LOSER with HCA SEVEN times. Playoff scoring and FG%'s declined, and his Finals FG% declined dramatically. A peak Bird shot .351 against the Pistons in '88??? Hakeem????? LOSER in the FIRST ROUND EIGHT TIMES!!!! Hakeem, who could get you 40-45 wins, and get you to the first round, and then get blown out????Kobe, who couldn't hit a shot in his Finals for his life, and who played even worse in biggest games of his Finals???? KAJ???? Played IN the Wilt-era, and went to ONE Finals, while Wilt went to THREE. Only won ONE ring in the 70's, and wouldn't have won any more without the arrival of MAGIC. Pau?????? He couldn't even get his teams into the playoffs, and BTW, how many playoff wins did his team's have without Kobe???? Shaq??? Who was SWEPT SIX TIMES and was just awful against Ostertag in another series in which his team was waxed 4-1????

And Russell???? Who was beaten to a pulp by Chamberlain in the vast majority of their eight playoff series H2H's, and when Wilt finally had an equal roster, and that was healthy, he just crushed the "Dynasty" and the "architect"?????

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[coin24]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Bird...LOSER with HCA SEVEN times. Playoff scoring and FG%'s declined, and his Finals FG% declined dramatically. A peak Bird shot .351 against the Pistons in '88??? Hakeem????? LOSER in the FIRST ROUND EIGHT TIMES!!!! Hakeem, who could get you 40-45 wins, and get you to the first round, and then get blown out????Kobe, who couldn't hit a shot in his Finals for his life, and who played even worse in biggest games of his Finals???? KAJ???? Played IN the Wilt-era, and went to ONE Finals, while Wilt went to THREE. Only won ONE ring in the 70's, and wouldn't have won any more without the arrival of MAGIC. Pau?????? He couldn't even get his teams into the playoffs, and BTW, how many playoff wins did his team's have without Kobe???? Shaq??? Who was SWEPT SIX TIMES and was just awful against Ostertag in another series in which his team was waxed 4-1????

And Russell???? Who was beaten to a pulp by Chamberlain in the vast majority of their eight playoff series H2H's, and when Wilt finally had an equal roster, and that was healthy, he just crushed the "Dynasty" and the "architect"?????

:roll: :roll: :roll:

My list >> wilt McGee


At least McGee had some memorable dunk comp moments, wtf did wilt ever do except for choke:oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

My list >> wilt McGee


At least McGee had some memorable dunk comp moments, wtf did wilt ever do except for choke:oldlol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Wilt_Chamberlain

BTW, that list is nowhere close to the records he actually holds...I think they gave up because there is only so much space on the internet, and it was going fast...

[tomSR.]

what about Magic J, did he ever choke ?

[LAZERUSS]

what about Magic J, did he ever choke ?

Of course he did. So did MJ, Duncan, West (who owes his only ring directly to Wilt BTW), and most certainly Russell.

But, all he did in his "Tragic" Finals, was lead LA in rebounding, average 18 ppg, hand out 14 apg, and shoot .560 from the floor (while Bird shot .488, and KAJ shot .481.)

BTW, Magic had a better career W-L record, withOUT Kareem, than with KAJ. BUT, KAJ certainly couldn't make that same claim.

[iTare]

What a meltdown. Btw, who the **** is Wilt?

[coin24]

Did this wilt guy have SDS like other known chokers like Lebron? How big was he Lazeruss?

[LAZERUSS]

Here are two of Barry's comments, some 30 years apart...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSTt_TxoFVo


If you could have ONE player to start a team with , who would you take?

"Without question...Wilt Chamberlain."


"Wilt was willing to do whatever it took to win"

'He was the most dominant center to have ever played the game."



"Nobody seems to appreciate what an incredible player Wilt was," Russell said at 1997 All-Star Game when the league named and honored its 50 greatest players. "He was the best player of all time because he dominated the floor like nobody else ever could. To be that big and that athletic was special."


"You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams."

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in an open letter to Scottie Pippen after Scottie Pippen referred to Michael Jordan and Lebron James as the greatest scorer and greatest player, respectively

Larry Bird...

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188550


When the topic of all-time greatest player was once raised, none other than the legendary Larry Bird didn't hesitate.


"Open up the record book and it will be obvious who the greatest is," he said.


Yep...Krikorian "the Legend."

[LAZERUSS]

Did this wilt guy have SDS like other known chokers like Lebron? How big was he Lazeruss?

Speaking of pukers...how about your boy, Kobe?


99-00
Regular season 22.5 ppg .468 FG%
Finals 15.6 ppg .367 FG%
Last Game of Series .296 FG%

00-01
Regular season 28.5 ppg .464 FG%
Finals 24.6 ppg .415 FG%
Last Game of Series .389 FG%

01-02
Regular season 25.2 ppg .469
Finals 26.8 ppg .514 FG%
Last Game of Series .438 FG%

03-04
Regular season 24.0 ppg .438 FG%
Finals 22.6 ppg .381 FG%
Last Game of Series .333 FG%

07-08
Regular season 28.3 ppg .459 FG%
Finals 25.7 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .318 FG%

08-09
Regular season 26.8 ppg .467 FG%
Finals 32.4 ppg .430 FG%
Last Game of Series .435 FG%

09-10
Regular season 27.0 ppg .456 FG%
Finals 28.6 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .250 FG%


Other noteables:


97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
Team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.
In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86. Kobe shoots .389 from the field.


Speaks volumes doesn't it?

The bigger the stage, the more he vomited...

[tomSR.]

Of course he did. So did MJ, Duncan, West (who owes his only ring directly to Wilt BTW), and most certainly Russell.

But, all he did in his "Tragic" Finals, was lead LA in rebounding, average 18 ppg, hand out 14 apg, and shoot .560 from the floor (while Bird shot .488, and KAJ shot .481.)

BTW, Magic had a better career W-L record, withOUT Kareem, than with KAJ. BUT, KAJ certainly couldn't make that same claim.

it was actualy a joke about magic, but thanks for the info :cheers:

[Asukal]

Speaking of records... Wilt=2. :lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

You mean Krekorian "the legend?"

I bet you never heard of the guy, nor has anyone else on this forum.

BTW, if you have Wilt at #10, your list is a POS.
LA reporter and friend of Wilt.

Who the **** are you?

His word > yours

He actually watched and covered the games, hell he even hun out with Wilt. His words are accurate, Wilt was a choker, this is reality.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Speaking of pukers...how about your boy, Kobe?



Speaks volumes doesn't it?

The bigger the stage, the more he vomited...
Yeah he sure vomited...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/eaed7f36c8de4dbdafb80d2f2bc0f11d/tumblr_n2sobfHtAt1ruj0bpo1_500.jpg

[Deuce Bigalow]

How many of them were putting up 50-40-38 ppg regular seasons? How many of them were leading the league in scoring seven times, FG% nine times, and rebounding 11 times?

How many of them had FOUR complete playoffs with 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37 ppg? How many of them had 30+ ppg and 30+ rpg post-season series? How many of them had EIGHT entire playoff runs of 24.7+ rpg? How many of them played in 29 post-season series, and outrebounded their opposing starting center in all 29 of them (and some by unfathomable margins)? How many of them had SIX playoff series of 28+ ppg and 23 rpg? How many of them had FOUR playoff series in which they scored 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 39 ppg and 39 ppg? How many of them had EIGHT playoff runs of 20+ ppg and 20+ rpg? How many of them had THIRTEEN post-seasons in which they averaged 20+ rpg? How many of them had FOUR 50+ point games? How many of them had THREE 50+ point games in "elimination" games? And how many of them had FIVE 40+ point games in "elimination" games, including a 45 point game in a Finals? How many of them played in 23 "elimination" games, and averaged 31.1 ppg, and shot .540 from the field in them?

And, as I said before, Chamberlain faced RUSSELL EIGHT times, and all but one were either in the first, or the second round. Why is that important? Because MJ's scoring and efficiecny took a nose-dive against the "Bad Boys" in his FOUR straight playoff series against them. Shaq's scoring and efficiency took a huge hit when he battled the Spurs in his FIVE playoff series between '99 and '04. And a peak Kareem's dropped dramatically in his FIVE playoff series against an old Wilt and an aging Thurmond. STEEP decline. Or how about Kobe in his Finals? His FG%'s dropped like the Zeppelin, ...and as bad they were in those series, they were FAR worse in the biggest games of them.

And how many of them shredded their knee, had major surgery, came back way ahead of schedule, and then averaged 12.7 ppg, 6.0 rpg, and shot .500 in their regular season games, post-surgery...and then went on to have a seven game Finals of 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 eFG%, which included a "must win" game six of 45 points, on 20-27 FG/FGA, with 27 rebounds? How many other players basically raised their level of play in a Finals by over 10 ppg, 18 rpg, and 12% from the field?

How many of them ended a Dynasty's eight year title run, and in a resounding fashion...all while absolutely crushing the architect? How many of them ended what was supposed to be a certain dynasty for years to come, before it ever got off the ground (the '72 Bucks)?

And of course, how many of them played in 29 post-season, and either outplayed, or downright dominated their opposing center, who was most often a HOFer, in the vast majority of them?

A "scoring" Wilt STILL averaged over 30 ppg and over 50% shooting against a prime Russell, and in an era when the post-season NBA was averaging about a .420 eFG%.

And keep in mind that Wilt's TEAM's lost to the eventual champion in TEN of his 13 post-seasons. At least he had an excuse when they were losing to the Celtics SEVEN times, or the '70 Knicks, or the '71 Bucks. How about Shaq getting swept six times, and playing poorly against Ostertag in a 4-1 series blowout loss? Or Bird losing with HCA SEVEN times, including being swept by an under-dog Bucks team? Or the great Hakeem losing in the first round EIGHT times, and to opposing centers like Eaton, Thompson, AC Green, and Oliver Miller?

Had Wilt had the "good fortune" to have been knocked out in the first round, as Hakeem routinely was, during his six playoffs during his scoring seasons, he would have averaged 34.6 ppg in those years.

Or had Wilt played in an era with pure crap teams making the playoffs, his 62-63 Warriors probably would have qualified (MJ's 85-86 Bulls had a worse record and they made it), in a season in which Chamberlain averaged 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting. Oh, and give Wilt a consistent 3-4 playoff rounds every season, much as the other HOF players would have later on, and he likely would have scored much more.

I have said it before, but had Wilt played in the Western Conference in his entire seven "scoring seasons", and he likely would hold every playoff scoring record. Why? Because Russell used to kill the Lakers in those years, and as great as Russell was against them, Chamberlain was FAR more dominant. From '62 thru '66, when Russell put up his best post-season series of his career against LA...Chamberlain had entire seasons, covering between nine and 12 games, in which he averaged 51.6 ppg, 48.6 ppg, 44.3 ppg, 29.9 ppg, and 40.8 ppg against the Lakers. Hell, Wilt had SIX games of 60+ against LA, including TWO of 70+ in that span. As it was, in his one post-season in the Western Conference, he annihilated the Hawks with a seven game series of 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and on a .559 FG% (in a post-season NBA that averaged 106 ppg on a .420 eFG%.)

And in the decade of the 60's, Chamberlain faced Russell and Thurmond (just ask KAJ about Nate), TEN times in his 18 playoff series...and he STILL averaged 26.4 ppg in all eighteen series. Take those two out of it, and his he would have scored 31 ppg in that span.

So, yes, Wilt was, at worst, the second greatest post-season player of all-time, and only MJ has an case over him.
You do know that Wilt only has 1 playoff scoring title, right?
Elgin Baylor led the playoffs in scoring for 4 years in a row, West a couple times in the '60s. You want to compare their scoring numbers in the playoffs? West, Baylor, even Oscar in the '60s were the best 3 playoff scorers. They were even more efficient too :roll: (maybe not Baylor).

I can name 10 players that have easily been better playoff performers than Wilt. He is nowhere near a top 5 playoff performer. Top 2 you say? That's a joke.

[Psileas]

How the heck is Wilt the most dominant in the playoffs with only MJ having a case over him? When his numbers dropped significantly in the postseason? Almost every all-time great increased their production in the postseason.

Seriously, is every single anti-Wilt mythologist that thick? If A's productivity increases from 40 to 60 and B's productivity drops from 100 to 80, does this suddenly make A more productive? Aren't you able to grasp the simple logic that Wilt was so dominant in the regular season that even his playoff drop can't keep him off the list of the best playoff performers ever?
Plus, it's obviously false that "almost ever all-time great increased their production in the postseason". On the contrary, most players' production in the postseason declines, regardless if we're talking about scrubs or legends. And even some of them whose productivity increases are players who have been or been accused of just coasting in the regular season. Obviously, it may seem the most reasonable thing to do sometimes, but in other occasions, coasting may easily lead to tougher playoff schedules and higher possibilities of the team losing early despite this player's productivity in the series. After all, let's be honest, almost everyone agrees that the greatest, most dominant version of Shaq was 2000 Shaq, and there's a serious reason for this: He was very present and ultra dominant from beginning to end, not just cruising for a 65 game, 26/12 season with a merely good team result that might end in an early exit in the postseason, even if Shaq could increase his productivity to 28/15 then.

[Deuce Bigalow]

22.5 ppg on 52.4%TS for his playoff career...

[canary]

No player is perfect / without his weakness(es). I'm not saying that Wilt played amazingly well each and every game during his career, but the man was consistent - scoring wise, rebounding wise, with respect to FG%, blocks, etc.

[Marchesk]

22.5 ppg on 52.4%TS for his playoff career...

His rebounding was +1.6 over his regular season averages. His assists were almost the same. Probably the same with blocks.

Wilt's averaged nearly 33 ppg his first six playoff seasons. But that was only 52 games. The majority of his playoff games came when he was no longer a volume scorer.

But you already know this stuff.

[LAZERUSS]

Seriously, is every single anti-Wilt mythologist that thick? If A's productivity increases from 40 to 60 and B's productivity drops from 100 to 80, does this suddenly make A more productive? Aren't you able to grasp the simple logic that Wilt was so dominant in the regular season that even his playoff drop can't keep him off the list of the best playoff performers ever?
Plus, it's obviously false that "almost ever all-time great increased their production in the postseason". On the contrary, most players' production in the postseason declines, regardless if we're talking about scrubs or legends. And even some of them whose productivity increases are players who have been or been accused of just coasting in the regular season. Obviously, it may seem the most reasonable thing to do sometimes, but in other occasions, coasting may easily lead to tougher playoff schedules and higher possibilities of the team losing early despite this player's productivity in the series. After all, let's be honest, almost everyone agrees that the greatest, most dominant version of Shaq was 2000 Shaq, and there's a serious reason for this: He was very present and ultra dominant from beginning to end, not just cruising for a 65 game, 26/12 season with a merely good team result that might end in an early exit in the postseason, even if Shaq could increase his productivity to 28/15 then.

Nor do they understand the other factors, either. When Hakeem was getting bounced from the first round, it was often by some scrub center. When Chamberlain was getting eliminated in the post-season, it was by HOF-laden teams like the Celtic dynasty, or both the '70 and (especially) the '73 Knicks, or what most "experts" believed to be, at the time, the next great dynasty in the '71 Bucks...and most all of them had a HOF center.

And they only look at Wilt's numbers, and never mention Chamberlain holding Johnny Kerr to FG%'s of .376 and .296; or outshooting Russell by margins of .468 to .399, 500 to .397, .517 to .386, .555 to .447, and .556 to .358; or outshooting Thurmond by margins of .500 to .392, .560 to .343, and .611 to .373; or outshooting Bellamy by a .584 to .421 margin (in a season in which Bellamy shot .541); or holding a peak KAJ to two series of .481 and .457 (in years in which Kareem shot .577 and .574 against the NBA.)

Or that Wilt played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded by an opposing starting center in any of them; which included outrebounding Lucas by a 23.2 to 9.8 margin; Thurmond by margins of 23.5 to 19.5 rpg, and 23.6 to 17.2 rpg; Reed by margins of 18.6 to 9.2 rpg, and 24.1 to 10.5 rpg; Bellamy by margins of 22.0 to 15.8 rpg, and 24.2 to 16.0 rpg; or the great Russell by margins of 30.2 to 25.0; 31.4 to 25.3, and 32.0 to 23.4 rpg.

And, only the "Wilt-bashers" would consider a "scoring Wilt", who averaged 32.8 ppg, 26.7 rpg, and shot .505 (in post-season leagues that shot .420 on average), as a "declining" Wilt. Oh, and in those 52 games, he faced RUSSELL in 30 of them. Again, had MJ faced the "Bad Boys' in 60% of his playoff games; or Shaq faced the Spurs in 60% of his playoff games; or Kareem faced Nate and Wilt in 60% of his playoff games...and their overall numbers would have looked far worse.

A "scoring" Wilt who put up 11 40+ point games in those 52 games, five of which came against Russell. Oh, and included were FOUR 50+ point games (three of which were in "elimination games", including one against Russell.)

Or a Chamberlain, in the first half of his career, averaged 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515 from the field (again, in post-seasons in which the league shot around .425), covering 67 games (35 of which came against Russell, and six of which were against Thurmond)...COMBINED.

Think about that...in his first 67 playoff games, Wilt basically averaged a 30-27-5 .515 FG% game. Now, give me the list of the all-time greats who even had ONE playoff SERIES with those numbers. Hell, you would be hard-pressed to find another "GOAT" with a SINGLE playoff GAME with that stat-line, much less someone who faced two of the greatest defensive centers of all-time in over 60% of those games.

Chamberlain "the choker"...

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

LA reporter and friend of Wilt.

Who the **** are you?

His word > yours

He actually watched and covered the games, hell he even hun out with Wilt. His words are accurate, Wilt was a choker, this is reality.


I gave you West's, Barry's, and Russell's take on Chamberlain. They all played for and/or against Wilt. They ALL considered him the GOAT.

Their word >>>>>>>>>>> clown by the name of Krikorian.

[canary]

I gave you West's, Barry's, and Russell's take on Chamberlain. They all played for and/or against Wilt. They ALL considered him the GOAT.

Their word >>>>>>>>>>> clown by the name of Krikorian.

Forget about the "words" of journalists / ex-NBA players.

Wilt's achievements and actions on the court speak for themselves :applause:

(although I'm not endorsing him as a GOAT candidate)

[Deuce Bigalow]

I gave you West's, Barry's, and Russell's take on Chamberlain. They all played for and/or against Wilt. They ALL considered him the GOAT.

Their word >>>>>>>>>>> clown by the name of Krikorian.
Barry's quote during his playing days

"I'll say what most players feel, which is that Wilt is a loser...He is terrible in big games. He knows he is going to lose and be blamed for the loss, so he dreads it, and you can see it in his eyes; and anyone who has ever played with him will agree with me, regardless of whether they would admit it publicly. When it comes down to the closing minutes of a tough game, an important game, he doesn't want the ball, he doesn't want any part of the pressure. It is at these times that greatness is determined and Wilt doesn't have it. There is no way you can compare him to a pro like a Bill Russell or a Jerry West...these are clutch competitors."

Next

[LAZERUSS]

Barry's quote during his playing days

"I'll say what most players feel, which is that Wilt is a loser...He is terrible in big games. He knows he is going to lose and be blamed for the loss, so he dreads it, and you can see it in his eyes; and anyone who has ever played with him will agree with me, regardless of whether they would admit it publicly. When it comes down to the closing minutes of a tough game, an important game, he doesn't want the ball, he doesn't want any part of the pressure. It is at these times that greatness is determined and Wilt doesn't have it. There is no way you can compare him to a pro like a Bill Russell or a Jerry West...these are clutch competitors."

Next

And just a SHORT time after he made that claim...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSTt_TxoFVo

"I really regret saying that in my book...I really do."

[canary]

Barry's quote during his playing days

"I'll say what most players feel, which is that Wilt is a loser...He is terrible in big games. He knows he is going to lose and be blamed for the loss, so he dreads it, and you can see it in his eyes; and anyone who has ever played with him will agree with me, regardless of whether they would admit it publicly. When it comes down to the closing minutes of a tough game, an important game, he doesn't want the ball, he doesn't want any part of the pressure. It is at these times that greatness is determined and Wilt doesn't have it. There is no way you can compare him to a pro like a Bill Russell or a Jerry West...these are clutch competitors."

Next

Why don't you say something substantive? Take up LAZERUS on the pages of FACTUAL evidence he has provided.

We're all waiting :confusedshrug:

[Horatio33]

And just a SHORT time after he made that claim...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSTt_TxoFVo

"I really regret saying that in my book...I really do."

He might regret it, but it's the truth.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Why don't you say something substantive? Take up LAZERUS on the pages of FACTUAL evidence he has provided.

We're all waiting :confusedshrug:
I already have. Clear facts that show Wilt's a choker

Largest PPG dropoffs

I looked through the top 100 PPG players that played a of minimum 30 playoff games.

Career Playoff PPG - Career Regular Season PPG
Wilt Chamberlain: -7.6 ppg
Glen Robinson: -6.9 ppg
John Drew: -6.7 ppg
Stephon Marbury: -6.7 ppg
World B. Free: -6.3 ppg
Spencer Haywood: -5.8 ppg
Tiny Archibald: -4.6 ppg
Neil Johnston: -4.4 ppg
Jamal Mashburn: -4.1 ppg
Kiki Vandeweghe: -3.6 ppg
Gilbert Arenas: -3.6 ppg
Chris Bosh: -3.6 ppg
David Robinson: -3.0 ppg

FT% differentials

Regular / Playoffs / Differential
Jordan 83.5 82.8 -0.7
Russell 56.1 60.3 4.2
Kareem 72.1 74 1.9
Magic 84.8 83.8 -1
Bird 88.6 89 0.4
Wilt 51.1 46.5 -4.6
Lebron 74.7 74.9 0.2
Shaq 52.7 50.4 -2.3
Duncan 69.4 68.7 -0.7
Kobe 83.8 81.6 -2.2
Hakeem 71.2 71.9 0.7
Moses 76 75.6 -0.4
Pettit 76.1 77.4 1.3
Oscar 83.8 85.5 1.7
West 81.4 80.5 -0.9
Dr. J. 77.7 78.4 0.7
Karl Malone 74.2 73.6 -0.6
Dirk 87.8 89.3 1.5
Baylor 78 76.9 -1.1
Garnett 79 79.1 0.1
Robinson 73.6 70.8 -2.8

By far the biggest FT% dropoffs between alltime great, maybe even among EVERYONE too.

I'm 99% sure he has the largest FT% dropoff in the Finals (51.1 to 37.5), a -13.6% drop.

Wilt

Regular season PPG -- Playoffs PPG
37.6 -- 33.2 (-4.4)
38.4 -- 37.0 (-1.4)
50.4 -- 35/0 (-15.4)
44.8 -- N/A
36.9 -- 34.7 (-2.2)
34.7 -- 29.3 (-5.4)
33.8 -- 28.0 (-5.8)
24.7 -- 21.7 (-3.0)
24.3 -- 23.7 (-0.6)
20.5 -- 13.9 (-6.6)
27.3 -- 22.1 (-5.2)
20.7 -- 18.3 (-2.5)
14.8 -- 14.7 (-0.1)
13.2 -- 10.4 (-2.8)

NEGATIVE EVERY SINGLE YEAR

Regular season PPG -- NBA Finals PPG
36.9 -- 29.2 (-7.7)
24.7 -- 17.7 (-7.0)
20.5 -- 11.7 (-8.8)
27.3 -- 23.3 (-4.0)
14.8 -- 19.4 (+4.6) ONLY POSITIVE ONE
13.2 -- 11.6 (-1.6)

Single Highest Regular Season to NBA Finals PPG drop-off

1. Lebron James 2011: -8.9 ppg (26.7, 17.8)
2. Wilt Chamberlain 1969: -8.8 ppg (20.5, 11.7)
3. Wilt Chamberlain 1964: -7.7 ppg (36.9, 29.2)
4. Wilt Chamberlain 1967: -7.0 ppg (24.7, 17.7)
#1 in choking rating (drop-offs in production in each category from the regular season to playoffs and finals and also factoring in losses with HCA)

Choking Rating: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Karl Malone: 8 + (25.0-24.7) + (25.0-19.6) + (10.1-10.7) + (10.1-9.6) + (3.6-3.2) + (3.6-3.3) + (51.6-46.3) + (51.6-46.0) + (74.2-73.6) + (74.2-67.6) - 0 = 32.4

David Robinson: 6 + (21.1-18.1) + (21.1-13.5) + (10.6-10.6) + (10.6-9.4) + (2.5-2.3) + (2.5-1.5) + (51.8-47.9) + (51.8-49.5) + (73.6-70.8) + (73.6-69.2) - 2 = 30.4
The facts are clear.

[LAZERUSS]

He might regret it, but it's the truth.

He then went on to claim that Wilt was THE GOAT.

The TRUTH.

[Deuce Bigalow]

He then went on to claim that Wilt was THE GOAT.

The TRUTH.
Russell was voted GOAT in 1980 and since Michael Jordan's playing days, MJ is considered the near unanimous GOAT.

Sorry. Wilt's the GOAT choker maybe.

[LAZERUSS]

I already have. Clear facts that show Wilt's a choker




#1 in choking rating (drop-offs in production in each category from the regular season to playoffs and finals and also factoring in losses with HCA)

The facts are clear.


The LAZERUSS "choker rating"

And the REAL "winner" is....

Kobe, and by a landslide!


99-00
Regular season 22.5 ppg .468 FG%
Finals 15.6 ppg .367 FG%
Last Game of Series .296 FG%

00-01
Regular season 28.5 ppg .464 FG%
Finals 24.6 ppg .415 FG%
Last Game of Series .389 FG%

01-02
Regular season 25.2 ppg .469
Finals 26.8 ppg .514 FG%
Last Game of Series .438 FG%

03-04
Regular season 24.0 ppg .438 FG%
Finals 22.6 ppg .381 FG%
Last Game of Series .333 FG%

07-08
Regular season 28.3 ppg .459 FG%
Finals 25.7 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .318 FG%

08-09
Regular season 26.8 ppg .467 FG%
Finals 32.4 ppg .430 FG%
Last Game of Series .435 FG%

09-10
Regular season 27.0 ppg .456 FG%
Finals 28.6 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .250 FG%


Other noteables:


97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
Team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.
In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86. Kobe shoots .389 from the field.







He not only was carried to his first three rings, he single-handedly blew two more.

And in his two decent Finals, he was facing the NETS for cryingoutloud, and he wasn't exactly brilliant in either of them.

The GOAT "Choker."

[Deuce Bigalow]

The LAZERUSS "choker rating"

And the REAL "winner" is....

Kobe, and by a landslide!



He not only was carried to his first three rings, he single-handedly blew two more.

And in his two decent Finals, he was facing the NETS for cryingoutloud, and he wasn't exactly brilliant in either of them.

The GOAT "Choker."
I can find you multiple quotes of players/coaches/execs/ect calling Kobe clutch. I can't find any for Wilt :roll: In fact I can only find ones that call him a choker.

"People said that Wilt tended to choke; well, he did." :applause:

"I'll say what most players feel, which is that Wilt is a loser...He is terrible in big games. He knows he is going to lose and be blamed for the loss, so he dreads it, and you can see it in his eyes; and anyone who has ever played with him will agree with me, regardless of whether they would admit it publicly. When it comes down to the closing minutes of a tough game, an important game, he doesn't want the ball, he doesn't want any part of the pressure. It is at these times that greatness is determined and Wilt doesn't have it. There is no way you can compare him to a pro like a Bill Russell or a Jerry West...these are clutch competitors." :applause:

"No one has any clutch stories on Chamberlain. If they existed, I'd pass them along." :applause:

[LAZERUSS]

Russell was voted GOAT in 1980 and since Michael Jordan's playing days, MJ is considered the near unanimous GOAT.

Sorry. Wilt's the GOAT choker maybe.

Chamberlain held a 7-2 Margin in First Team All-NBA selections over Russell WHEN they played...and the voting was done by SPORTSWRITERS who actually saw them both play.

How about ESPN's Sports Century voting in 1999...

Wilt was #2 behind only MJ.

How about the voting for the greatest CENTER of all-time and in 1989...


But exactly where? And in what sort of perspective? To determine that, the Daily News polled players, coaches, scouts, administrators and people close to the NBA and asked them to name, in order, the three greatest centers of all time.

Twenty-eight ballots were cast, and with each weighted five points for first place, three for second and one for third, the clear winner was the fabled Wilt Chamberlain, with 94 points. Bill Russell, who won 11 championships with the Celtics, was second with 78 1/2. Abdul-Jabbar was a close third with 72 1/2. Only three others - Bill Walton, Moses Malone and George Mikan - received any mention.

[Asukal]

No player is perfect / without his weakness(es). I'm not saying that Wilt played amazingly well each and every game during his career, but the man was consistent - scoring wise, rebounding wise, with respect to FG%, blocks, etc.

Consistent in losing, thus a choker. His stans claim he is the greatest most dominant scorer ever yet fail to mention he has only 22ppg and 18ppg scoring in the playoffs and finals.

Sorry but Wilt wilted too many times to be considered the GOAT. :oldlol:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Consistent in losing, thus a choker. His stans claim he is the greatest most dominant scorer ever yet fail to mention he has only 22ppg and 18ppg scoring in the playoffs and finals.

Sorry but Wilt wilted too many times to be considered the GOAT. :oldlol:
still easily better than Jordan.
1-9 in the playoffs without Pippen:roll: :roll: :roll:

[deja vu]

still easily better than Jordan.
1-9 in the playoffs without Pippen:roll: :roll: :roll:
Yeah because MJ doesn't need teammates.

[LoneyROY7]

Yo, fellas, it's 2014...NEWS FLASH:

No one gives a sh*t about Wilt.

[deja vu]

Seriously, is every single anti-Wilt mythologist that thick? If A's productivity increases from 40 to 60 and B's productivity drops from 100 to 80, does this suddenly make A more productive? Aren't you able to grasp the simple logic that Wilt was so dominant in the regular season that even his playoff drop can't keep him off the list of the best playoff performers ever?
Plus, it's obviously false that "almost ever all-time great increased their production in the postseason". On the contrary, most players' production in the postseason declines, regardless if we're talking about scrubs or legends. And even some of them whose productivity increases are players who have been or been accused of just coasting in the regular season. Obviously, it may seem the most reasonable thing to do sometimes, but in other occasions, coasting may easily lead to tougher playoff schedules and higher possibilities of the team losing early despite this player's productivity in the series. After all, let's be honest, almost everyone agrees that the greatest, most dominant version of Shaq was 2000 Shaq, and there's a serious reason for this: He was very present and ultra dominant from beginning to end, not just cruising for a 65 game, 26/12 season with a merely good team result that might end in an early exit in the postseason, even if Shaq could increase his productivity to 28/15 then.
I'm not saying that Wilt's regular season stats are bad; they're legendary achievements actually. But having huge PPG drops in the postseason will make people think that he was statpadding in the regular season. After all, it's in the playoffs where defenses are tougher and there's vastly more pressure to perform well. Wilt's arguably the great regular season performer, but I don't think he's the greatest playoffs performer. He had massive drops in production in the playoffs plus he only won 2 rings. Most dominant scorer should have won 4-6 or even more but couldn't take advantage of the Celtics decline in the late 60s.

[LAZERUSS]

I'm not saying that Wilt's regular season stats are bad; they're legendary achievements actually. But having huge PPG drops in the postseason will make people think that he was statpadding in the regular season. After all, it's in the playoffs where defenses are tougher and there's vastly more pressure to perform well. Wilt's arguably the great regular season performer, but I don't think he's the greatest playoffs performer. He had massive drops in production in the playoffs plus he only won 2 rings. Most dominant scorer should have won 4-6 or even more but couldn't take advantage of the Celtics decline in the late 60s.

One more damned time...Wilt faced Russell and the Celtic Dynasty EIGHT times in his post-season career. I ask you, how come MJ's scoring and efficiency nose-dived in his FOUR post-season series against the "Bad Boys?" Hell, he only 1-3 against them, as well (and in that 4th season, the Pistons were just a shell...no way did he ever play well, or beat a prime Piston team.) How come Shaq's numbers declined dramatically in his FIVE post-season series against the Spurs from '99 thru '04? And how come a PEAK Kareem watched his ppg go dwon by nearly SEVEN ppg, and his FG% efficiency drop by a staggering 11%, in his FIVE post-season series against Wilt and Thurmond? (And lucky for Kareem, he never faced a PRIME Chamberlain, either, or it would have been much worse.)

Furthermore, let's take a closer look at that "decline" shall we?

In Wilt's seven "scoring seasons", from 59-60 thru 65-66, he team's made the playoffs in six of them. And in the one in which he missed, he averaged 44.8 ppg on a .528 eFG%.

Ok, he ran into RUSSELL and the CELTIC DYNASTY in FIVE of them...and it came in either his first, or second round, in every one of them (30 of his 52 playoff games.)

Then, how about this:

'59-60:

Wilt's regular season average against Russell, in 11 H2H games:
39.1 ppg on a .465 FG%
His six game post season average against Russell: 30.5 ppg on a .500 eFG%

61-62:

Regular season in 10 H2H's: 39.7 ppg on a .468 eFG%
Seven game EDF's against Russell: 33.6 ppg on a .468 eFG%

63-64:
Regular season average against Russell in 8 H2Hs: 29.1 ppg on a .530 eFG%
Against Russell in five Finals games: 29.2 ppg on a .517 eFG%

64-65:

Regular season average in 11 H2G games: 25.4 ppg on a .473 eFG%
In seven games of the EDF's: 30.1 ppg on a .555 eFG%

65-66:

Regular season in 9 H2H's: 28.3 ppg on a .525 eFG%
Five games in the EDF's: 28.0 on a .509 eFG%.

And, BTW, virtually all of the post-seasons in that span declined in scoring and eFG% as compared to regular season averages.

Not nearly as dramatic a decline as it seemed is it?

[Asukal]

One more damned time...Wilt faced Russell and the Celtic Dynasty EIGHT times in his post-season career. I ask you, how come MJ's scoring and efficiency nose-dived in his FOUR post-season series against the "Bad Boys?" Hell, he only 1-3 against them, as well (and in that 4th season, the Pistons were just a shell...no way did he ever play well, or beat a prime Piston team.) How come Shaq's numbers declined dramatically in his FIVE post-season series against the Spurs from '99 thru '04? And how come a PEAK Kareem watched his ppg go dwon by nearly SEVEN ppg, and his FG% efficiency drop by a staggering 11%, in his FIVE post-season series against Wilt and Thurmond? (And lucky for Kareem, he never faced a PRIME Chamberlain, either, or it would have been much worse.)

Furthermore, let's take a closer look at that "decline" shall we?

In Wilt's seven "scoring seasons", from 59-60 thru 65-66, he team's made the playoffs in six of them. And in the one in which he missed, he averaged 44.8 ppg on a .528 eFG%.

Ok, he ran into RUSSELL and the CELTIC DYNASTY in FIVE of them...and it came in either his first, or second round, in every one of them (30 of his 52 playoff games.)

Then, how about this:

'59-60:

Wilt's regular season average against Russell, in 11 H2H games:
39.1 ppg on a .465 FG%
His six game post season average against Russell: 30.5 ppg on a .500 eFG%

61-62:

Regular season in 10 H2H's: 39.7 ppg on a .468 eFG%
Seven game EDF's against Russell: 33.6 ppg on a .468 eFG%

63-64:
Regular season average against Russell in 8 H2Hs: 29.1 ppg on a .530 eFG%
Against Russell in five Finals games: 29.2 ppg on a .517 eFG%

64-65:

Regular season average in 11 H2G games: 25.4 ppg on a .473 eFG%
In seven games of the EDF's: 30.1 ppg on a .555 eFG%

65-66:

Regular season in 9 H2H's: 28.3 ppg on a .525 eFG%
Five games in the EDF's: 28.0 on a .509 eFG%.

And, BTW, virtually all of the post-seasons in that span declined in scoring and eFG% as compared to regular season averages.

Not nearly as dramatic a decline as it seemed is it?

Cherry picking at its finest. Fact of the matter is if you take into account every game he has played in his ppg drops by 8 from rs to po. Greatest scorer my arse. :rolleyes:

[LAZERUSS]

Cherry picking at its finest. Fact of the matter is if you take into account every game he has played in his ppg drops by 8 from rs to po. Greatest scorer my arse. :rolleyes:

"Cherry-picking" as in including EVERY H2H SERIES?

BTW, throw out Wilt's 62-63 season, when his putrid team didn't even make the playoffs (BTW, that W-L record was better than MJ's Bulls in '86, who did make the playoffs)...and his regular season scoring in his "scoring seasons" drops from 40 ppg down to 38 ppg. And in that same span, he averaged 33 ppg in his 52 post-season games, 30 of which came against Russell...and that is not much of a "decline."

BTW, in his "scoring seasons", from 60 thru 66, in his five regular season series against Russell, he averaged 33 ppg. In his five post-season series against Russell in that span, he averaged 30 ppg. And, his FG% actually ROSE from his regular season average of .492 to .508.

Care to post MJ's scoring and FG%'s in his four post-season series against the "bad Boys?" How about Shaq's in his five against the Spurs from '99 thru '04? Or Kareem's in his five post-season series from '71 thru '73 against Wilt and Thurmond?

[-23-]

"Cherry-picking" as in including EVERY H2H SERIES?

BTW, throw out Wilt's 62-63 season, when his putrid team didn't even make the playoffs (BTW, that W-L record was better than MJ's Bulls in '86, who did make the playoffs)...and his regular season scoring in his "scoring seasons" drops from 40 ppg down to 38 ppg. And in that same span, he averaged 33 ppg in his 52 post-season games, 30 of which came against Russell...and that is not much of a "decline."

BTW, in his "scoring seasons", from 60 thru 66, in his five regular season series against Russell, he averaged 33 ppg. In his five post-season series against Russell in that span, he averaged 30 ppg. And, his FG% actually ROSE from his regular season average of .492 to .508.

Care to post MJ's scoring and FG%'s in his four post-season series against the "bad Boys?" How about Shaq's in his five against the Spurs from '99 thru '04? Or Kareem's in his five post-season series from '71 thru '73 against Wilt and Thurmond?

Why cherry pick stats looking at specific series? If judging a player, you should look at consistency, and a large sample size (i.e. PLAYOFF stats as a whole) is a much better indicator than a "fluke" or bad series. You clearly don't know squat about statistics, and use whatever good and bad points to promote your agenda. fk off outta here niga:biggums:

[Psileas]

Cherry picking at its finest. Fact of the matter is if you take into account every game he has played in his ppg drops by 8 from rs to po. Greatest scorer my arse. :rolleyes:

How is it cherry picking to analyze stats and find their traps? If Wilt's drop of close to 8 ppg represented what actually happened year after year, how come it only happened once in 13 postseasons?

This simplified kind of statistical view is literally no better than the Robert Horry argument - who cares about his stats and role, his real stat is only the easiest to find and remember, 7 rings, right?

[Deuce Bigalow]

2-4 in the finals
5 losses with HCA
Missed the playoffs in his prime
Swept by a sub .500 team in the first round
On pace to miss another postseason before being traded away
22.5 ppg on 52.4 TS% in his postseason career
18.6 ppg in his finals career
37.5 FT% shooter in the Finals
Only 2 rings
Players/journalists on record calling him a choker
Largest dropoffs in ppg and ft% in the playoffs/finals

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img716/5576/mv6.gif

[Deuce Bigalow]

How come a LA reporter which has to have some bias in favor of LA players since he was likely a fan and a personal friend who hung out with Wilt would call Wilt a choker if he really wasn't? And it's not like he's the only one to make this claim. I'm gonna take his word for it over boxscore readers that didn't actually watch him play. And the audacity to call this man a nobody and post your cherrypicked stats as if it means something? Nobody called Wilt clutch. We have heard players like West, Sam Jones, and Russell being talked about as clutch. And this jlauber boxscore reading clown claims that Wilt was thee clutchest of them all. I mean c'mon man. Okay you may not think he was a choker, but don't call Wilt clutch please. It doesn't reflect reality.

[LAZERUSS]

2-4 in the finals
5 losses with HCA
Missed the playoffs in his prime
Swept by a sub .500 team in the first round
On pace to miss another postseason before being traded away
22.5 ppg on 52.4 TS% in his postseason career
18.6 ppg in his finals career
37.5 FT% shooter in the Finals
Only 2 rings
Players/journalists on record calling him a choker
Largest dropoffs in ppg and ft% in the playoffs/finals

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img716/5576/mv6.gif

Carried two teams that went 68-13 and 69-13 to two titles. Anchored two other 60+ win teams. Carried another team, that had gone 40-40 the year before, to the best record in the league, all while leading the leading in scoring, rebounding, and FG%.

Lost five game seven's to the eventual champion, including FOUR by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points, and was the best player on the floor in three of them, and the best center on the floor in all four of them.

Averaged 37 ppg in the ONE series in which his team lost in the post-season that did not go on to win a championship...and his teammates collectively shot .332 in that series.

Was traded away by one team that would go 7-36 without him, to a team that had gone 34-46 the year before. He then single-handedly carried that 40-40 team to a game seven, one point loss, against the 62-18 HOF-laden Celtics...in a series in which he completely trashed Russell, and averaged 30 ppg, 31 rpg, and shot .555 from the field in.

Averaged 33 ppg in his post-seasons in his "scoring prime". And in those 52 games, 30 of which were against Russell, he had 11 games of 40+ points (five of which were in elimination games, and four of 50+, (three of which came in "must-win" games.)

Only played in one Final in his scoring season, and put up a 29 ppg, 28 rpg, .517 series against Russell. Overall, he badly outscored his opposing starting centers in his six Finals, crushed them on the glass in those six Finals, and outshot them by staggering FG%'s in every series.

And in his 23 post-season "elimination games" this "choker" put up averages of 31.1 ppg, 26.0 rpg, adnd shot .540 from the floor (or well over 10% higher than the post-season league eFG% in that same span.) Aside from Lebron, at 31.9 ppg, and MJ, at 31.3 ppg, he was the highest "elimination game" scorer in post-season history. And he was certainly more dominant than either, as well.

All-time greats, including Kareem, Russell, Barry, Bird, and West have claimed he was the GOAT.

Had a staggering 7-2 margin over another "GOAT", Russell, in First-Team All-NBA selections, in their ten seasons in the league together, and was voted that by the sportswriters who actually watched them play AT THE TIME, (and not some nobody journalist that no one ever heard of then, or since)... (and who, to my knowledge, Chamberlain himself, never mentioned in any of his books.)

Most dominant post-season post-season run in NBA history in his "scoring seasons"...averaged 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, likely 8+ bpg, and shot .515 from the field (in post-seasons that shot about .420 in that same span)...in his 67 playoff games...COMBINED. All while dramatically outscoring his HOF peers, holding those same HOF centers to perhaps as much as 10% below their normal regular season FG%'s, and just crushing them all on the glass.

Greatest Regular Season AND Post-Season player of all-time...

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Psileas]

I'm not saying that Wilt's regular season stats are bad; they're legendary achievements actually. But having huge PPG drops in the postseason will make people think that he was statpadding in the regular season. After all, it's in the playoffs where defenses are tougher and there's vastly more pressure to perform well. Wilt's arguably the great regular season performer, but I don't think he's the greatest playoffs performer. He had massive drops in production in the playoffs plus he only won 2 rings. Most dominant scorer should have won 4-6 or even more but couldn't take advantage of the Celtics decline in the late 60s.

I and others have explained in the past that the decline of his scoring productivity can be explained by many factors other than "choking", such as only playing 1/3 of his playoff games during the 1960-66 era, thus having his overall averages skewed negatively and facing elite defenders way too often, in less available playoff series. This is his difference from famous playoff decliners like Robinson or K.Malone, if you see Wilt's playoff opponents, you can explain most of his scoring decline, while the other 2 had declines and underperformances against opponents they had no job struggling against.
As for the Celtics' "decline", it's only relative: They went a dominant 60-21 in '67, won 54 games in '68 (#2 in the league, not much worse than most records they had been posting through the decade), then went 48-34 in '69, the only season you can talk about some decline (they went 2-3 without Russell).

[Jameerthefear]

2-4 in the finals
5 losses with HCA
Missed the playoffs in his prime
Swept by a sub .500 team in the first round
On pace to miss another postseason before being traded away
22.5 ppg on 52.4 TS% in his postseason career
18.6 ppg in his finals career
37.5 FT% shooter in the Finals
Only 2 rings
Players/journalists on record calling him a choker
Largest dropoffs in ppg and ft% in the playoffs/finals

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img716/5576/mv6.gif
Wilt has been exposed. Wow. This is a complete knock on his legacy. I'm glad you brought this to light man.

[Deuce Bigalow]

He was called a choker. How does that mean he was the greatest postseason player ever? MJ, Russell, KAJ, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Bird, Mikan, West, Bran, Dirk were better postseason performers.

In that "37 ppg series" he averaged 32 shots per game and was SWEPT by the sub .500 Nats while his team had HCA. His teammates shooting so badly reflects Wilt's impact on making his teammates better..which was hardly anything. Go back and look at Cousy's quote on Wilt about stats and how Wilt didn't improve his teammates play.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt has been exposed. Wow. This is a complete knock on his legacy. I'm glad you brought this to light man.

Now, get a real education, and read this...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332617

and get back to me when you thoroughly read it...

[Deuce Bigalow]

I and others have explained in the past that the decline of his scoring productivity can be explained by many factors other than "choking", such as only playing 1/3 of his playoff games during the 1960-66 era, thus having his overall averages skewed negatively and facing elite defenders way too often, in less available playoff series. This is his difference from famous playoff decliners like Robinson or K.Malone, if you see Wilt's playoff opponents, you can explain most of his scoring decline, while the other 2 had declines and underperformances against opponents they had no job struggling against.
As for the Celtics' "decline", it's only relative: They went a dominant 60-21 in '67, won 54 games in '68 (#2 in the league, not much worse than most records they had been posting through the decade), then went 48-34 in '69, the only season you can talk about some decline (they went 2-3 without Russell).
His playoff ppg dropped by 6.8 from 1960-66, which is nearly the same as his 7.6 career ppg drop. His efficiency was rather poor aswell, around 52 TS% during 1960-66. Like I said, anyway you want to look at it, scoring prime, post-scoring prime, career, ect, he choked.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt's 5 years with LA...

Regular season: 17.7 ppg on .590 TS%
Playoffs: 15.8 ppg on .526 TS%

[Asukal]

"Cherry-picking" as in including EVERY H2H SERIES?

BTW, throw out Wilt's 62-63 season, when his putrid team didn't even make the playoffs (BTW, that W-L record was better than MJ's Bulls in '86, who did make the playoffs)...and his regular season scoring in his "scoring seasons" drops from 40 ppg down to 38 ppg. And in that same span, he averaged 33 ppg in his 52 post-season games, 30 of which came against Russell...and that is not much of a "decline."

BTW, in his "scoring seasons", from 60 thru 66, in his five regular season series against Russell, he averaged 33 ppg. In his five post-season series against Russell in that span, he averaged 30 ppg. And, his FG% actually ROSE from his regular season average of .492 to .508.

Care to post MJ's scoring and FG%'s in his four post-season series against the "bad Boys?" How about Shaq's in his five against the Spurs from '99 thru '04? Or Kareem's in his five post-season series from '71 thru '73 against Wilt and Thurmond?

Everybody and I mean everybody has great and good games as well as bad games. You have to look at the big picture and that is the WHOLE career.

GOAT candidates:
Wilt: RS ppg = 30.1, PO ppg = 22.5
MJ: RS ppg = 30.1, PO ppg = 33.4
KAJ: RS ppg = 24.6, PO ppg = 24.3
Magic: RS ppg = 19.5, PO ppg = 19.5
Bird: RS ppg = 24.3, PO ppg = 23.8
Russell: RS ppg = 15.1, PO ppg = 16.2

Notice only Wilt's ppg dips by more than 1 point, why is that? Different roles? I thought you stans claim he is THE MOST DOMINANT SCORING OPTION? :confusedshrug:

GOAT centers:
Wilt: RS ppg = 30.1, PO ppg = 22.5
KAJ: RS ppg = 24.6, PO ppg = 24.3
Russell: RS ppg = 15.1, PO ppg = 16.2
Shaq: RS ppg 23.7, PO ppg = 24.3
Hakeem: RS ppg 21.8, PO ppg = 25.9

Same story... :rolleyes:

This is your so called MOST DOMINANT SCORER EVER who couldn't get it done when it mattered. Wilted too many times... :applause:

[aj1987]

Why are you guys till debating. Wilt was a glorified stat padder. Bill >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wilt and it's not even close.

[Psileas]

Everybody and I mean everybody has great and good games as well as bad games. You have to look at the big picture and that is the WHOLE career.

GOAT candidates:
Wilt: RS ppg = 30.1, PO ppg = 22.5
MJ: RS ppg = 30.1, PO ppg = 33.4
KAJ: RS ppg = 24.6, PO ppg = 24.3
Magic: RS ppg = 19.5, PO ppg = 19.5
Bird: RS ppg = 24.3, PO ppg = 23.8
Russell: RS ppg = 15.1, PO ppg = 16.2

Notice only Wilt's ppg dips by more than 1 point, why is that? Different roles? I thought you stans claim he is THE MOST DOMINANT SCORING OPTION? :confusedshrug:

GOAT centers:
Wilt: RS ppg = 30.1, PO ppg = 22.5
KAJ: RS ppg = 24.6, PO ppg = 24.3
Russell: RS ppg = 15.1, PO ppg = 16.2
Shaq: RS ppg 23.7, PO ppg = 24.3
Hakeem: RS ppg 21.8, PO ppg = 25.9

Same story... :rolleyes:

This is your so called MOST DOMINANT SCORER EVER who couldn't get it done when it mattered. Wilted too many times... :applause:

If you want the big picture, then I remind you of this:


If Wilt's drop of close to 8 ppg represented what actually happened year after year, how come it only happened once in 13 postseasons?

So, Kareem's productivity fell by only 0.3 ppg in the playoffs. Impressive, right? Oh, wait, it fell by way more than that when he went through the same shit that Wilt went and faced the most elite defenders year after year (Thurmond and Wilt from 1971 to 1973). I guess Kareem started his career as a massive choker, then suddenly, when Thurmond and Wilt were over, decided to become clutch...

[Asukal]

If you want the big picture, then I remind you of this:

So, Kareem's productivity fell by only 0.3 ppg in the playoffs. Impressive, right? Oh, wait, it fell by way more than that when he went through the same shit that Wilt went and faced the most elite defenders year after year (Thurmond and Wilt from 1971 to 1973). I guess Kareem started his career as a massive choker, then suddenly, when Thurmond and Wilt were over, decided to become clutch...

Yet when all is said and done Kareem won 6 and Wilt only 2. One would think that the so called "MOST DOMINANT PLAYER OF ALL TIME", "THE ONE AND ONLY GREATEST SCORER EVER", "OWNER OF THE RECORD BOOKS" would've won a lot of rings down the road. :rolleyes:

[Psileas]

Yet when all is said and done Kareem won 6 and Wilt only 2. One would think that the so called "MOST DOMINANT PLAYER OF ALL TIME", "THE ONE AND ONLY GREATEST SCORER EVER", "OWNER OF THE RECORD BOOKS" would've won a lot of rings down the road. :rolleyes:

And Havlicek got 8 (2-3 as the MVP of his team). While 1985-90 Jordan had zero. Not enough dominance on the part of the "GOAT", I guess. Good for his luck that 80's powers faded in the 90's.

And no, I don't care about details like his role, his individual dominance, etc. All I care to remember is the ring count. Sounds convincing, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

[Asukal]

And Havlicek got 8 (2-3 as the MVP of his team). While 1985-90 Jordan had zero. Not enough dominance on the part of the "GOAT", I guess. Good for his luck that 80's powers faded in the 90's.

And no, I don't care about details like his role, his individual dominance, etc. All I care to remember is the ring count. Sounds convincing, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

Still he won 6 doe. :rolleyes:

Last I checked MJ's career went on till 2003 not 1990. Are we going to cherrypick seasons now? :rolleyes:

[Psileas]

Still he won 6 doe. :rolleyes:

Last I checked MJ's career went on till 2003 not 1990. Are we going to cherrypick seasons now? :rolleyes:

This is to make some points straight. Was Jordan arguably the most dominant playoff performer in the mid 80's up to 1990 (including the 1988-90 postseasons)? Definitely not, based on the ring count.

Doe, yeah, I'll still take 8 over 6.

[Dr.J4ever]

This is to make some points straight. Was Jordan arguably the most dominant playoff performer in the mid 80's up to 1990 (including the 1988-90 postseasons)? Definitely not, based on the ring count.

Doe, yeah, I'll still take 8 over 6.
But Jordan wasn't the most dominant player from '85 to '90. Statistically in the regular season, maybe, but when it counted in the Playoffs, he just didn't get it done enough. Historically, it has been acknowledged that he adjusted his game to make other players emerge, like Pippen, to accomplish more team success.

After all, true dominance is measured in wins, and how much you had to do in making your team win. That's the bottom line in basketball.

[Dr.J4ever]

By the way, these Wilt debates are getting old. We keep rehashing the same arguments over and over.

Simply put, Wilt was the single most dominant player ever. History has already established this, especially in the NBA regular season. In the playoffs, he was only one of the most dominant. History has also established that he wasn't the best playoff player ever.

Simple truths that only a troll or someone delusional could deny.

[JUDGE WITNESS]

wasnt op a wilt stan like a month ago

[deja vu]

One more damned time...Wilt faced Russell and the Celtic Dynasty EIGHT times in his post-season career. I ask you, how come MJ's scoring and efficiency nose-dived in his FOUR post-season series against the "Bad Boys?" Hell, he only 1-3 against them, as well (and in that 4th season, the Pistons were just a shell...no way did he ever play well, or beat a prime Piston team.) How come Shaq's numbers declined dramatically in his FIVE post-season series against the Spurs from '99 thru '04? And how come a PEAK Kareem watched his ppg go dwon by nearly SEVEN ppg, and his FG% efficiency drop by a staggering 11%, in his FIVE post-season series against Wilt and Thurmond? (And lucky for Kareem, he never faced a PRIME Chamberlain, either, or it would have been much worse.)

Furthermore, let's take a closer look at that "decline" shall we?

In Wilt's seven "scoring seasons", from 59-60 thru 65-66, he team's made the playoffs in six of them. And in the one in which he missed, he averaged 44.8 ppg on a .528 eFG%.

Ok, he ran into RUSSELL and the CELTIC DYNASTY in FIVE of them...and it came in either his first, or second round, in every one of them (30 of his 52 playoff games.)

Then, how about this:

'59-60:

Wilt's regular season average against Russell, in 11 H2H games:
39.1 ppg on a .465 FG%
His six game post season average against Russell: 30.5 ppg on a .500 eFG%

61-62:

Regular season in 10 H2H's: 39.7 ppg on a .468 eFG%
Seven game EDF's against Russell: 33.6 ppg on a .468 eFG%

63-64:
Regular season average against Russell in 8 H2Hs: 29.1 ppg on a .530 eFG%
Against Russell in five Finals games: 29.2 ppg on a .517 eFG%

64-65:

Regular season average in 11 H2G games: 25.4 ppg on a .473 eFG%
In seven games of the EDF's: 30.1 ppg on a .555 eFG%

65-66:

Regular season in 9 H2H's: 28.3 ppg on a .525 eFG%
Five games in the EDF's: 28.0 on a .509 eFG%.

And, BTW, virtually all of the post-seasons in that span declined in scoring and eFG% as compared to regular season averages.

Not nearly as dramatic a decline as it seemed is it?
Wilt's playoffs PPG vs. the Celtics = 23.4

Wilt's playoffs PPG vs. other teams = 22.3

So Wilt not only "wilted" against the Celtics, he also did against the other teams. :facepalm

Now if Wilt played in the time of the Internet he would be crucified no end by people saying that he's a choker. LOL. From 30.1 PPG regular season to 22.5 PPG postseason. :lol

[Psileas]

Wilt's playoffs PPG vs. the Celtics = 23.4

Wilt's playoffs PPG vs. other teams = 22.3

So Wilt not only "wilted" against the Celtics, he also did against the other teams. :facepalm

Now if Wilt played in the time of the Internet he would be crucified no end by people saying that he's a choker. LOL. From 30.1 PPG regular season to 22.5 PPG postseason. :lol

Wrong on all non-numerical accounts. I copy an older post of mine:


OK, time to blow up the "choker" myth a bit more analytically: Wilt's regular season (RS) vs playoff (PO) scoring season by season vs the same opponent:

1960:
vs Nationals-- RS: 38, PO: 38.7 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 39.9, PO: 30.5 (adv. RS)

1961:
vs Nationals-- RS: 39.9, PO: 37 (adv. RS)

1962:
vs Nationals-- RS: 48, PO: 37 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 41.7 (incl. games that Russell missed), PO: 33.6 (adv. RS)

1964:
vs Hawks-- RS: 32.8, PO: 38.6 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 29.1, PO: 29.2 (adv. PO)

1965 (playing for Sixers):
vs Royals-- RS: 36.8, PO: 27.8 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 25.0, PO: 30.1 (adv. PO)

1966:
vs Celtics-- RS: 28.3, PO: 28 (adv. RS)

1967:
vs Royals-- RS: 28.6, PO: 28 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 20.3, PO: 21.6 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 20.7, PO: 17.7 (adv. RS)

1968:
vs Knicks-- RS: 22.6, PO: 25.5 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 17.1, PO: 22.1 (adv. PO)

1969:
vs Warriors-- RS: 12.6, PO: 12.0 (adv. RS)
vs Hawks-- RS: 17.9, PO: 19.2 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 16.3, PO: 11.7 (adv. RS)

1970:
Too small RS samples

1971:
vs Bulls-- RS: 21.2, PO: 15.7 (adv. RS)
vs Bucks-- RS: 23.2, PO: 22 (adv. RS)

1972:
vs Bulls-- RS: 8.8, PO: 14.5 (adv. PO)
vs Bucks-- RS: 13.0, PO: 10.8 (adv. RS)
vs Knicks-- RS: 16.8, PO: 19.4 (adv. PO)

1973:
vs Bulls-- RS: 11.5, PO: 12 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 5.7, PO: 7 (adv. PO)
vs Knicks-- RS: 9.3, PO: 11.6 (adv. PO)

RS vs PO: 13-13

Falls by 5+ ppg: 5
Raises by 5+ ppg: 4

Seems pretty even to me. Choker? I don't think so.

So, in 50% of cases, Wilt was actually more productive against those specific opponents during the playoffs than during the regular season.
And, as we see, in only 5 of his series did he comparatively fall by even 5 ppg, which is almost as frequently as he raised his averages by 5.
Forget the 7.6 ppg differential thing, it doesn't even come close to reflecting all the truth. Everyone who knows basic statistics can realize that it's plausible to decline each year in the playoffs and yet your career playoff averages may still be higher.

[LAZERUSS]

OK, time to blow up the "choker" myth a bit more analytically: Wilt's regular season (RS) vs playoff (PO) scoring season by season vs the same opponent:

1960:
vs Nationals-- RS: 38, PO: 38.7 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 39.9, PO: 30.5 (adv. RS)

1961:
vs Nationals-- RS: 39.9, PO: 37 (adv. RS)

1962:
vs Nationals-- RS: 48, PO: 37 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 41.7 (incl. games that Russell missed), PO: 33.6 (adv. RS)

1964:
vs Hawks-- RS: 32.8, PO: 38.6 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 29.1, PO: 29.2 (adv. PO)

1965 (playing for Sixers):
vs Royals-- RS: 36.8, PO: 27.8 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 25.0, PO: 30.1 (adv. PO)

1966:
vs Celtics-- RS: 28.3, PO: 28 (adv. RS)

1967:
vs Royals-- RS: 28.6, PO: 28 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 20.3, PO: 21.6 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 20.7, PO: 17.7 (adv. RS)

1968:
vs Knicks-- RS: 22.6, PO: 25.5 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 17.1, PO: 22.1 (adv. PO)

1969:
vs Warriors-- RS: 12.6, PO: 12.0 (adv. RS)
vs Hawks-- RS: 17.9, PO: 19.2 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 16.3, PO: 11.7 (adv. RS)

1970:
Too small RS samples

1971:
vs Bulls-- RS: 21.2, PO: 15.7 (adv. RS)
vs Bucks-- RS: 23.2, PO: 22 (adv. RS)

1972:
vs Bulls-- RS: 8.8, PO: 14.5 (adv. PO)
vs Bucks-- RS: 13.0, PO: 10.8 (adv. RS)
vs Knicks-- RS: 16.8, PO: 19.4 (adv. PO)

1973:
vs Bulls-- RS: 11.5, PO: 12 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 5.7, PO: 7 (adv. PO)
vs Knicks-- RS: 9.3, PO: 11.6 (adv. PO)

RS vs PO: 13-13

Falls by 5+ ppg: 5
Raises by 5+ ppg: 4

Seems pretty even to me. Choker? I don't think so.

Of course you should include 1970. Why? Because Wilt blew out his knee, and even the most optimistic medical opinion had him missing, at a minimum, the entire rest of the season and playoffs.

But, instead Wilt miraculously rehabbed on his own, and came back WAY ahead of ANY medical opinion, at the time. And despite the FACT that he was nowhere near 100%, he came back to help his TEAM.

He came back in time to play the last three regular season games, and in those three games, he averaged 12.6 ppg, 6.0 rpg, and shot .500 from the field.

So, I would argue that his first round playoff series, (and in which HE carried that team back from a 3-1 series deficit) in which he averaged 23.7 ppg, 20.3 rpg, and shot .549 from the field, is one advantage PO. His second round series of 17.2 ppg, 22.0 rpg, and on a .413 FG%...advantage PO. And then his seven game Finals, in which he became the ONLY player in Finals history to put up a 20-20 .600+ FG% Finals (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%) ...huge advantage PO.

First of all, NO ONE else would have ever come back from that injury that soon. And, secondly, NO ONE else would have come anywhere near those numbers had they tried (hell, no HEALTHY GOAT candidate has ever approached those numbers.) And yet, here was a one-legged Wilt (and the YouTube footage of game seven in convincing evidence of that...putting up historic numbers...and being labeled a "choker."

So, I would argue that Wilt EXCEEDED his regular season numbers in MORE than HALF of his post-season series.

And again, only the idiotic clowns here honestly use the +/- as some kind of a
"formula" for "choking. Chamberlain's numbers declined for several reasons, but the biggest reason was, he put up unfathomable numbers in his regular seasons. One moron here suggested that Russell was a greater player because his post-season numbers rose...even though they are well behind Chamberlain's overall (and more importantly, Chamberlain just crushed him in their eight playoff series H2H.)

Using that ridiculous "formula", which rewards a 10 ppg player for averaging 15 ppg, and punishes a 40 ppg player for averaging 35 ppg...then how come we don't see James Worthy's name on that "clutch list?" And of course that "formula" rewards a player like Hakeem, who played against clods for most of his post-season career, and was blown out in the first round in over HALF of his playoff series, simply because he "elevated" his numbers (despite the fact that they did his team very little good),...and then punish a Chamberlain for taking pathetic rosters into the second round where they consistently ran into the greatest defensive center in NBA history, and on the greatest dynasty in NBA history...and his numbers declined (some, but not all), by a small margin.

And, as you have stated repeatedly, Wilt's "scoring seasons" (one of which didn't make the post-season) comprised less than one-third of his post-season career. He averaged 40 ppg over the course of his "scoring seasons", again, and in one them not even making the playoffs...and 20 ppg in the last half of his career...which comprised more than two-thirds of his playoff games.

And, had MJ faced the Bad Boys EIGHT times; Shaq the Spurs EIGHT times; Kareem the Wilt-Nate combo EIGHT times; and Bird the Lakers (or Bad Boys) EIGHT times; and all between the fuirst or second round,...and all of their post-season numbers and team successes would have taken HUGE hits.

Nor does Wilt's DEMOLITION of his OPPOSING centers get rewarded. While Hakeem gets slaughtered for 28 ppg on a .595 FG% (while getting outrebounded, outassisted, and outblocked), but shot-jacks his way to 33 ppg (on an eFG% that was well below the post-season average), he gets rewarded. Meanwhile, Chamberlain holds his opposing centers to below norms in scoring, dramatically reduces their FG% efficiency, and cleans their clocks on the glass...but, since his own scoring dropped...well, he "choked."

And yet a Kobe, who played just horrifically in the vast majority of his Finals, and was only good against the awful Nets in the two that he put any decent numbers at all...and whose FG%'s dropped like a descending missile, especially in the biggest games of those Finals, is somehow considered more "clutch" than a Chamberlain who was routinely putting up 30-25-5-8 .500 series, while crushing his opposing HOF centers in scoring, rebounding, passing, efficiency, and blocked shots???? Only a hillbilly from Deliverance could come up with a "formula" like that, and honestly believe it.

[aj1987]

You guys are just proving my point. All those stats and only 2 rings? GOAT stat padder. Played for his stats and nothing else. Imagine if MJ did that. He'd have a career average of 35 PPG.

[Asukal]

You guys are just proving my point. All those stats and only 2 rings? GOAT stat padder. Played for his stats and nothing else. Imagine if MJ did that. He'd have a career average of 35 PPG.

Right on target. Meanwhile Russell has 11.... :rolleyes: