A look back at the LEastern teams that the Heat have faced in the last 3 years

[J Shuttlesworth]

2010-2011:
Philly 76ers: DRTG: 105 7th in the league
Boston Celtics: DRTG: 100.3 Best in the league
Chicago Bulls: DRTG: 100.3 Best in the league
Dallas Mavericks: DRTG: 105 8th in the league

2011-2012:

New York Knicks: DRTG: 100.5: 5th in the league
Indiana Pacers: DRTG: 103.1: 9th in the league
Boston Celtics: DRTG: 98.2 Best in the league
Oklahoma City Thunder (WEST IS THE BEST): DRTG: 103.2 10th in the league

2012-2013:
Milwaukee Bucks: DRTG: 105.2 12th in the league
Chicago Bulls: DRTG: 103.2 6th in the league
Indiana Pacers: DRTG: 99.8 Best in the league
San Antonio Spurs: DRTG: 101.2 3rd best in the league

Just for a little comparison, here is the path the Spurs had last year in the Western Conference (da best)
Los Angeles Lakers: DRTG: 106.6 17th in the league UNDER LEAGUE AVERAGE
Golden State Warriors: DRTG: 105.5 14th in the league
Memphis Grizzlies: DRTG: 100.3 Second in the league

2014 could be the only year where the Heat didn't have to face tough teams, but they're still facing tough defenses:

Bobcats: 103.8 -5th
Indiana: 99.3 - 1st
Chicago: 100.5 - 2nd
Wizards: 104.6 - 7th

Say the Thunder make the finals. Their road would likely be:
Memphis: 104.6 - 8th (perhaps deflated by Gasol's injury)
(if) LAC: 104.8 - 9th
(if) GSW: 102.6 - 4th (although they don't have Bogut, who is their biggest defensive presence)
(if) POR: 107.4 - 17th UNDER LEAGUE AVERAGE
(if) HOU: 106.3 - 13th
(if) DAL: 108.7 - 22nd UNDER LEAGUE AVERAGE
(if) SAS: 102.4 - 3rd

Interesting stuff. I have no doubt that the West is more stacked than the East, but the East still keeps up defensively. Also interesting that the Heat ALWAYS have to face the best defenses in the league, and even took the 2 best down in 2011

[Lebronxrings]

:pimp: lebron single handledly rolling the competition. Some of you people are so ignorant to think Heat beat scrubby teams.

[UK2K]

So they played a bunch of teams who cant score?

[Natureland]

Ah, the life of a team up 3-0 and looking to sweep. This seems nice. :lol


nice info doe

[Big Cheese]

in b4 the east only has good defenses because no1 in the east can score.

[ArbitraryWater]

Its a Fact, East has always had better Defenses.

Same case through the 2000's with the: Pistons, Celtics, Magic

[ArbitraryWater]

OP, didnt your Title used to say "KD > Kobe" ? :lol Haha loving the change!

[UK2K]

in b4 the east only has good defenses because no1 in the east can score.
Right, thats what Im asking.

And its not a smart ass question, but I think the Eastern teams are offensively challenged, especially this season.

[Nikola_]

I bet Miami would rather play the Spurs, Memphis, Portalnd, Okc than Wizards, Bulls, Indy, Charlotte :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

I bet Miami would rather play the Spurs, Memphis, Portalnd, Okc than Wizards, Bulls, Indy, Charlotte :lol

Genius Assumption... No shit, we all know the West this Year is >>>> East

[Nikola_]

Genius Assumption... No shit, we all know the West this Year is >>>> East

team with low DRTG >>> team with 50 WINs :rockon:

[J Shuttlesworth]

LeBron's playoff numbers

2010-2011: 23.5 pts, 8.4 reb, 6 assists
2011-2012: 30.3 pts, 9.7 reb. 5.6 assists 50% FG
2012-2013: 26 pts, 8.4 reb, 6.6 assists, 49% FG

Wade:
2011: 24.5 pts, 7.1 reb. 4.4 ast 48.6% FG
2012: 22.8 pts, 5.2 reb, 4.3 ast 46.2% FG
2013: 15.9 pts, 4.6 reb,4.8 ast. 47% FG

Bosh:
2011- 18.6 pts, 6.2 reb 47% FG
2012- 14 pts, 5.2 reb 49.3% FG
2013- 12.1 pts, 7.3 reb, 45.8% FG

[J Shuttlesworth]

Genius Assumption... No shit, we all know the West this Year is >>>> East
Exactly. I doubt that the western teams would rather face Indiana and Chicago last year opposed to the Kobe-less Lakers, the Lee-less warriors, or the Grizzlies.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Right, thats what Im asking.

And its not a smart ass question, but I think the Eastern teams are offensively challenged, especially this season.
This season, yes especially. Past years, the offense in the East wasn't so bad especially when you consider how good the defense is. This is the only year in the last 3 where half of the top ten defensive teams are in the West.

But to people who think LeBron's numbers are inflated by the Eastern conference are retarded. He'd be putting up better numbers against the West considering the defense is weaker (except this year, where the defense is about even)

[zoom17]

Great thread OP :applause:

[ThePhantomCreep]

Genius Assumption... No shit, we all know the West any Year is >>>> East


Fixed

[DMAVS41]

They had really tough road in 11, but again...they lost. So that kind of proves the point.



This isn't debatable...it's simply an advantage playing in the East in the regular season and playoffs.

How big of an advantage is up for debate.

[zoom17]

Fixed


your probably Droid alt always negative.

[livinglegend]

They had really tough road in 11, but again...they lost. So that kind of proves the point.



This isn't debatable...it's simply an advantage playing in the East in the regular season and playoffs.

How big of an advantage is up for debate.

How do you calculate ''tough''? How do you know a road to the finals is tougher than another one?
You look at team regular season record? or H2H record? or ''Eye test''? ...
Or you come up with a formula of your own to fit your own agenda?

[DMAVS41]

How do you calculate ''tough''? How do you know a road to the finals is tougher than another one?
You look at team regular season record? or H2H record? or ''Eye test''? ...
Or you come up with a formula of your own to fit your own agenda?

A bit of everything.

I thought the Bulls and Celtics in 11 were pretty damn good teams?

Which year did they face the best competition in the East in your opinion?

[livinglegend]

A bit of everything.

I thought the Bulls and Celtics in 11 were pretty damn good teams?

Which year did they face the best competition in the East in your opinion?

2012 by far.
Pacers and Celtics matched Heat perfectly + Bosh was injured.

[DMAVS41]

2012 by far.
Pacers and Celtics matched Heat perfectly + Bosh was injured.

You are factoring in how good the Heat are...I wasn't. I actually thought the Celtics in 11 were better than they were in 12. And the Bulls were better than the Pacers.

If you factor in the Heat being worse...then sure.

I just wasn't doing that.

The Heat being worse doesn't make the teams in 12 or 13 better than they actually are...you get this right?

[livinglegend]

You are factoring in how good the Heat are...I wasn't. I actually thought the Celtics in 11 were better than they were in 12. And the Bulls were better than the Pacers.

If you factor in the Heat being worse...then sure.

I just wasn't doing that.

I see the strength of a road differently. For me the toughest road is the one that makes the team struggle the most. I make my opinion with the help of actual facts instead of using hypothetical situations.

[livinglegend]

You are factoring in how good the Heat are...I wasn't. I actually thought the Celtics in 11 were better than they were in 12. And the Bulls were better than the Pacers.

If you factor in the Heat being worse...then sure.

I just wasn't doing that.

The Heat being worse doesn't make the teams in 12 or 13 better than they actually are...you get this right?

Say what you want, but you ll can never prove to me that 12 Heat team was worse than 11.

[buddha]

Defenses stats in the east get overrated because they routinely face crappy teams like the bucks and sixers.

[livinglegend]

You are factoring in how good the Heat are...I wasn't. I actually thought the Celtics in 11 were better than they were in 12. And the Bulls were better than the Pacers.

If you factor in the Heat being worse...then sure.

I just wasn't doing that.

The Heat being worse doesn't make the teams in 12 or 13 better than they actually are...you get this right?

Who did you have as the favorites going into 11 finals?

[DMAVS41]

Who did you have as the favorites going into 11 finals?

The Heat of course.

[DMAVS41]

Say what you want, but you ll can never prove to me that 12 Heat team was worse than 11.

I say that only because of the Bosh injury.

The 12 Heat at their full strength might have been better than the 11 Heat.

I'm not sure on that...it's really really close for me.

But Bosh being hurt doesn't make the Celtics better. It makes what Lebron/Heat were able to do more impressive...but it doesn't make the Celtics better just because the Heat were clearly worse than normal without Bosh in that series...you follow?

[livinglegend]

The Heat of course.

This is why you cant use your assumptions and predictions to define the strength of a road to the finals. Your prediction underestimated the Mavs, your prediction was wrong. These predictions that you re making ( Heat 12 being worse than 11, Celtics 12 being worse than 11, etc.) could also be wrong.

[DMAVS41]

I see the strength of a road differently. For me the toughest road is the one that makes the team struggle the most. I make my opinion with the help of actual facts instead of using hypothetical situations.

Actual facts?

You are just using how the Heat struggle as evidence of how good the teams are they played. Which is just silly...you aren't factoring in the Heat being worse at times.

Like in 13...on your theory the Pacers were better than the 11 Bulls, 11 Celtics, and 12 Celtics...which they just weren't.

So the Blazers were the best team in the West the Mavs played in 11? Please answer.

[livinglegend]

I say that only because of the Bosh injury.

The 12 Heat at their full strength might have been better than the 11 Heat.

I'm not sure on that...it's really really close for me.

But Bosh being hurt doesn't make the Celtics better. It makes what Lebron/Heat were able to do more impressive...but it doesn't make the Celtics better just because the Heat were clearly worse than normal without Bosh in that series...you follow?

Your opinion is based on hypothetical situations and on predictions. Your predictions could be wrong or right, we will never know.

[DMAVS41]

This is why you cant use your assumptions and predictions to define the strength of a road to the finals. Your prediction underestimated the Mavs, your prediction was wrong. These predictions that you re making ( Heat 12 being worse than 11, Celtics 12 being worse than 11, etc.) could also be wrong.

Of course we could all be wrong.

But why were the 12 Celtics better than 11? In 11 they actually had an offense that wasn't pathetic.

Why were the 13 pacers better than the 11 Bulls?

[livinglegend]

Actual facts?

You are just using how the Heat struggle as evidence of how good the teams are they played. Which is just silly...you aren't factoring in the Heat being worse at times.

Like in 13...on your theory the Pacers were better than the 11 Bulls, 11 Celtics, and 12 Celtics...which they just weren't.

So the Blazers were the best team in the West the Mavs played in 11? Please answer.

We will never know the answer to those questions.
You thought Heat was better than the Mavs, you thought they would beat them, did they?

[DMAVS41]

Your opinion is based on hypothetical situations and on predictions. Your predictions could be wrong or right, we will never know.

Not really. It's just obvious that the 13 Heat were a shell of the team they were in 11 and 12 in the playoffs. If we can't agree on that...then I give up.

Your way is horrid. Your conclusion is that the Blazers were the best team the Mavs faced in the West because they took us to 6. You make no room for a team actually just playing well.

Maybe I'm mistaken...could you answer that...were the Blazers the best team the Mavs faced in the West in 11? And if not,...why?

[livinglegend]

Of course we could all be wrong.

But why were the 12 Celtics better than 11? In 11 they actually had an offense that wasn't pathetic.

Why were the 13 pacers better than the 11 Bulls?

I m not saying that those teams were better, i m just saying that its impossible to answer those questions. We were wrong with our predictions before and we could be wrong now. We cant define the strength of a road to the finals using predictions.

[livinglegend]

Not really. It's just obvious that the 13 Heat were a shell of the team they were in 11 and 12 in the playoffs. If we can't agree on that...then I give up.

Your way is horrid. Your conclusion is that the Blazers were the best team the Mavs faced in the West because they took us to 6. You make no room for a team actually just playing well.

Maybe I'm mistaken...could you answer that...were the Blazers the best team the Mavs faced in the West in 11? And if not,...why?

They struggled against Miami as much as they did against the Blazers. From Mavs s point of view, Blazers and Heat were their toughest opponents.

[DMAVS41]

I m not saying that those teams were better, i m just saying that its impossible to answer those questions. We were wrong with our predictions before and we could be wrong now. We cant define the strength of a road to the finals using predictions.

I think acting like we can't know anything about a team going in is silly. Upsets happen...that doesn't make it impossible to look at a team and analyze how good they were.

But you are saying the teams in 12 were better clearly. And I'd like to know what makes you come to that conclusion.

It seems you are just ignoring how much worse the Heat were in 13 in the playoffs...and you are artificially propping up the Heat's competition.

Just like you are doing with the 12 Celtics. They were not better than the 11 Celtics. The Heat just didn't have Bosh...come on now.

No need to play dumb...

[DMAVS41]

They struggled against Miami as much as they did against the Blazers. From Mavs s point of view, Blazers and Heat were their toughest opponents.


Sigh...okay.

So there is no room for how a team plays...

Got it. The Atlanta Hawks were better than the Lakers in the 08 playoffs....

Yep...makes sense. :confusedshrug:

[livinglegend]

I think acting like we can't know anything about a team going in is silly. Upsets happen...that doesn't make it impossible to look at a team and analyze how good they were.

But you are saying the teams in 12 were better clearly. And I'd like to know what makes you come to that conclusion.

It seems you are just ignoring how much worse the Heat were in 13 in the playoffs...and you are artificially propping up the Heat's competition.

Just like you are doing with the 12 Celtics. They were not better than the 11 Celtics. The Heat just didn't have Bosh...come on now.

No need to play dumb...

Are you serious? I said twice that we cant know if the teams in 12 were better or not. I didnt say they were better.

[DMAVS41]

Are you serious? I said twice that we cant know if the teams in 12 were better or not. I didnt say they were better.

Okay...and I disagree that we can't know anything.

All I can say is this;

If your line of thinking leads you to the conclusion that the 08 Hawks and 08 Cavs are better than the 08 Lakers....you have a flawed line of thinking.

That is all that needs to be said.

[Blue&Orange]

Milwaukee Bucks: DRTG: 105.2 12th in the league
i loled seriously.

such an amazing, accurate and relevant stat

Dumb op how many wins those teams won with their amazing(let's pretend) defense?

[livinglegend]

Sigh...okay.

So there is no room for how a team plays...

Got it. The Atlanta Hawks were better than the Lakers in the 08 playoffs....

Yep...makes sense. :confusedshrug:

Sometimes you just have to accept the fact that you cant know everything. We will never know which version of Celtics were bettter 12 or 11. We are humans and we are limited. We cant go back in time and make them play together.

You can logic and predictions as much as you want, but there is always a possibility that you may be wrong. Your logic and prediction was wrong in 11 when you picked Heat to beat Mavs and they could be wrong again. Just accept the fact that you cant know everything. Stop acting like a some of God that knows everything and that can predict all the situations.

[livinglegend]

Okay...and I disagree that we can't know anything.

All I can say is this;

If your line of thinking leads you to the conclusion that the 08 Hawks and 08 Cavs are better than the 08 Lakers....you have a flawed line of thinking.

That is all that needs to be said.

The only thing I can say is that the 08 Hawks and 08 Cavs took the Celtics to more games than the Lakers and that the 08 Lakers had a better regular season record that both of them. The rest depends on you definition of ''better team''.

[DMAVS41]

Sometimes you just have to accept the fact that you cant know everything. We will never know which version of Celtics were bettter 12 or 11. We are humans and we are limited. We cant go back in time and make them play together.

You can logic and predictions as much as you want, but there is always a possibility that you may be wrong. Your logic and prediction was wrong in 11 when you picked Heat to beat Mavs and they could be wrong again. Just accept the fact that you cant know everything.

You are just arguing that we can't ever be certain about anything. Okay...I agree.

So what?

We can talk about reasons why we reach conclusions and are thought process in reaching those conclusions.

It's not really about the conclusion here...it's about the thought process. You only look at the result and you don't factor in that a team plays better/worse at times and their are health issues in play as well.

I just think your thought process is flawed. i don't care to argue 11 vs 12 Celtics all that much. I think the 11 Celtics were better because they could actually score, but I'm not going to go crazy about it.

What I do know...is that saying the 12 Celtics were better because the series went longer than it did in 11 is a faulty line of thinking.

[chazzy]

Sometimes you just have to accept the fact that you cant know everything. We will never know which version of Celtics were bettter 12 or 11. We are humans and we are limited. We cant go back in time and make them play together.

You can logic and predictions as much as you want, but there is always a possibility that you may be wrong. Your logic and prediction was wrong in 11 when you picked Heat to beat Mavs and they could be wrong again. Just accept the fact that you cant know everything. Stop acting like a some of God that knows everything and that can predict all the situations.
Why are you being so meta?

[livinglegend]

You are just arguing that we can't ever be certain about anything. Okay...I agree.

So what?

We can talk about reasons why we reach conclusions and are thought process in reaching those conclusions.

It's not really about the conclusion here...it's about the thought process. You only look at the result and you don't factor in that a team plays better/worse at times and their are health issues in play as well.

I just think your thought process is flawed. i don't care to argue 11 vs 12 Celtics all that much. I think the 11 Celtics were better because they could actually score, but I'm not going to go crazy about it.

What I do know...is that saying the 12 Celtics were better because the series went longer than it did in 11 is a faulty line of thinking.

Again, you are making things up. I never said that the 12 Celtics were better than 11 Celtics. I just said that it was impossible to predict it.

And I think that your thought process is flawed because you re using predictions to make conclusions and your predictions have been wrong before.

[livinglegend]

Why are you being so meta?

wtf is that?

[J Shuttlesworth]

They had really tough road in 11, but again...they lost. So that kind of proves the point.



This isn't debatable...it's simply an advantage playing in the East in the regular season and playoffs.

How big of an advantage is up for debate.
Like you always point out though, they lost because of a LeBron choke. They had the talent to win that year but LeBron simply played poorly.

Anyway, I don't think defense alone makes the East tougher than the West, but it's tougher than most people think. Dealing w/ 2 very physical teams like the Bulls/Pacers is taxing.

The main point of this thread was to point out how LeBron's stats aren't "inflated" because of the East. Their defense is far tougher in the East, and he would likely put up better numbers in the West. This year may be the only exception.

[J Shuttlesworth]

i loled seriously.

such an amazing, accurate and relevant stat

Dumb op how many wins those teams won with their amazing(let's pretend) defense?
Are you denying that it's a true stat? I got it from basketball reference. I'm not saying the Bucks are a tough team but I'd be biased if I didn't include all teams they faced.

[eliteballer]

The Least doesn't play better D, they just have worse O across the board.

[TheNaturalWR]

This is why you cant use your assumptions and predictions to define the strength of a road to the finals. Your prediction underestimated the Mavs, your prediction was wrong. These predictions that you re making ( Heat 12 being worse than 11, Celtics 12 being worse than 11, etc.) could also be wrong.

I'm a Heat fan and I can tell you that the 11 Heat were CLEARLY better than the 12' Heat. The regression from Wade brought that team down dramatically. If you watched both playoff runs you could see we never had our backs against the walls until the LeBron disappearance. You had arguably the two best players in the league on the same team, anytime one of those regresses to a fringe top 10 player you better believe the team got worse.

[SilkkTheShocker]

The Least doesn't play better D, they just have worse O across the board.

They play better defense. The west is full of soft ass teams.

[DMAVS41]

Again, you are making things up. I never said that the 12 Celtics were better than 11 Celtics. I just said that it was impossible to predict it.

And I think that your thought process is flawed because you re using predictions to make conclusions and your predictions have been wrong before.

It's not just predictions...it's evaluating what the teams do as well.

My point is that any thought process saying that the Hawks were a tougher team for the Celtics in 08 than the Lakers is flawed...

You really think we don't know enough to claim that the 08 Lakers were better than the ****ing 08 Hawks?

We really at the point where we can't even talk about that?


And you continue to confuse whether or not a team struggles with how good the opponent is.

We are just talking across points though...by definition, the 12 road was tougher than 11 on your thinking because the Heat struggled more. But the problem with that is that it's not taking into account how good the Heat actually were. That is the huge flaw for you...and you can't just claim...oh..."we don't know"

No...we do know things like the 11 Bulls being better than the 12 Pacers. We know shit like that...

Pretending otherwise is silly...deep down you know this.

[D-Wade316]

You are factoring in how good the Heat are...I wasn't. I actually thought the Celtics in 11 were better than they were in 12. And the Bulls were better than the Pacers.

If you factor in the Heat being worse...then sure.

I just wasn't doing that.

The Heat being worse doesn't make the teams in 12 or 13 better than they actually are...you get this right?
Correct. From start to finish the 2011 Heat is still the best Heat team. They lost the Finals simply because Lebron choked and Dallas taking over. They faced the best competition too. In 2012 and 2013 we were taken to more games because of injuries(Wade and Bosh), not because the competition was weaker.

[Demitri98]

Oh, so the playoff teams usually have solid defenses? Old news OP.

[DMAVS41]

Correct. From start to finish the 2011 Heat is still the best Heat team. They lost the Finals simply because Lebron choked and Dallas taking over. They faced the best competition too. In 2012 and 2013 we were taken to more games because of injuries(Wade and Bosh), not because the competition was weaker.

I completely agree.

I will say, however, that a fully healthy Heat team in 12 might have been the best. It's hard to know that...

I still probably lean towards 11 because Wade was still at his peak/prime and Bosh was balling...but it's close.

The honest among us all know the truth...only way the 11 Heat lost was because of the Lebron epic choke.