How many of you guys who saw prime MJ think LeBron is better?

[TheMan]

Like my thread title says...this thread is exclusively for those who saw prime or at least some of MJ's prime from early mid 90s and think LeBron is just as good if not better? Even better if you're not a fan of either player for a more unbiased opinion...

Honestly, in my personal experience talking to those who have seen both MJ's and LBJ's career, not many think LBJ is on MJ's level. The young cats love saying nostalgia but naw, that ain't it, I'm an MJ fan but being as nuetral as I can be, I just ain't seeing it. MJ would NEVER EVER have a 2011 Finals performance. MJ has had his share of postseason losses but the opposition were legendary squads like those Bird Celtics and Thomas Pistons (still put up stud stats vs those teams in losing efforts)...I just can't see MJ getting punked by the likes of Terry and Marion.:confusedshrug:

What say you?

[sd3035]

the two most overrated manufactured superstars of all time

[Bless Mathews]

I Am 38 years old.

Prime mj is far better than bron.

Way better.

Mj in his prime in current nba would averAge 40+ easy.

[inclinerator]

bill lambier

[Mr Exlax]

MJ is more skilled, but LeBron can do more things for your team out on the court.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

MJ was better

[AnaheimLakers24]

bran would be flipping my burgers in 80s and 90s

[TheMan]

this thread has already been made, please stop making dumb/repetitive theads
Not really. I'm asking the older heads here who saw both their primes. No fvcks will be given to the opinions of youngsters who only have seen YouTube videos.

Don't like this thread?
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[imdaman99]

MJ is more skilled, but LeBron can do more things for your team out on the court.
What could Lebron do that MJ couldn't? Guard Pau Gasol? Guard Kendrick Perkins?

I suppose MJ in his mid 30s had problems with the quicker PGs like Damon Stoudamire or Iverson

IF MJ wanted, he could average 7 assists too. The triangle offense didn't want him to.

[K Xerxes]

Peak for peak, MJ was better. Better defender, off ball player and scorer. Bron is a better rebounder and playmaker, but it's easier to exploit Bron than MJ. No matter what defensive tactic you played, he'd still get his, either with insane driving to the hoop or the killer midrange (and post later on). As we have seen, Bron can struggle when faced with an organised defense that shuts lanes off - his jumpshot is not completely reliable.

However, even as an MJ fan, I'm not going to go as far as saying 'way better'. It's close, which is a huge compliment to Bron. The only peaks I'd rank with MJ are the bigs (Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt, Kareem). Bron is slightly below.

Note: not talking about career, just peaks, which would mean 2011 is irrelevant to me. 2012-present Bron is a different animal.

[elementally morale]

I'm 40.
Jordan is better. By quite a lot.

Still overrated as fcuk though. There have been many many great players and MJ had/has profited the most due to the game having become available via satelite and cable TV worldwide. Having had Magic and Bird building the whole tension through the 80's also helped him a lot.

LeBron is a special player, but it's mainly a result of his physical abilities. MJ was as athletic as one can be but he was also an assassin (something LeBron is not) and a very skilled player (something LeBron also isn't).

[Mr Exlax]

What could Lebron do that MJ cant? Guard Pau Gasol? Guard Kendrick Perkins?

I suppose MJ in his mid 30s had problems with the quicker PGs like Damon Stoudamire or Iverson

IF MJ wanted, he could average 7 assists too. The triangle offense didn't want him to.

That is one of the things. Might not be big to you, but I value that a ton. That's a hole in my team that he can cover up for me.

I imagine if LeBron got to hand check like MJ did and got to be more physical, he'd be even better on defense than he already is. Right?

I have no doubt MJ could average 7 assists. The difference from what I saw was MJ getting doubled and hitting the open man vs LeBron actually being the floor general out there ans running an entire play.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Peak for peak, MJ was better. Better defender, off ball player and scorer. Bron is a better rebounder and playmaker, but it's easier to exploit Bron than MJ. No matter what defensive tactic you played, he'd still get his, either with insane driving to the hoop or the killer midrange (and post later on). As we have seen, Bron can struggle when faced with an organised defense that shuts lanes off - his jumpshot is not completely reliable.

However, even as an MJ fan, I'm not going to go as far as saying 'way better'. It's close, which is a huge compliment to Bron. The only peaks I'd rank with MJ are the bigs (Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt, Kareem). Bron is slightly below.

Note: not talking about career, just peaks, which would mean 2011 is irrelevant to me. 2012-present Bron is a different animal.

I'd put them in the same tier honestly but MJ higher. Would put Bird in that tier as well. Shaq has the number 1 peak imo (haven't seen enough of Wilt to comment on him though)

[lakerspng]

MJ was better, in some ways by a little, some ways they're even (rebounding) or Lebron maybe slightly ahead (passing)... but in other ways MJ was just far far ahead. On the stat sheet LeBron is right there, on the floor in game time, he's not.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

LeBron could easily average 35 today if he tried and could average 40+ over multiple years in MJs era with ease.
LeBron is so much better in everything but scoring than MJ its ridiculous.
biggest confirm of this is MJs saltiness torwards branban

[Milbuck]

In my 64 years of basketball viewing/knowledge, I've never seen anyone as dominant as Michael Jordan, except for Shaq at his absolute best. Wilt comes close, as does Carlos Arroyo.

[riseagainst]

when people talk about the greatness of MJ, people mention his killer instinct, greatest playoff performer of all time, insane will, incredible offensive abilities, one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time, defensive prowess, etc.

when people talk about the greatness of Lebron, people mention that he is 6'8" 260 pounds.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Insane athletic ability who had Bird-like skills w/ ELITE defense.

Mike is one of the few GREAT athletes that was ALSO fundamentally sound..

[Dro]

I'm 34 years old and no, just no...Lebron would be FANTASTIC in any era. He might even be the best player in the league in most eras but not with a prime MJ...Hell, even before MJ hit is prime, I'm taking him over anybody not named Kareem...MJ just does certain things much better and more consistently than Lebron...I believe Lebron greatly benefits from the no hand check rule because he can just use his strength to bull over people. Lebron doesn't have the quickest first step, or the greatest handles...He gets by with speed, athleticism, strength and high basketball IQ...Skillwise, he is not on the same level of Jordan as a scorer, I don't care what the stats say...He is not the mid-range shooter Jordan was, he is not the defender that Jordan was....He's not the clutch player Jordan was and he does not have the ability to seemingly go an extra gear(or 2) above anyone else on the floor...I never have looked at Lebron as a DOMINANT player that was impossible to stop...Thats how I look at MJ. He was simply dominant and basically unstoppable...So unstoppable that people cling on to the "jordan rules" to support their claims of him failing in the playoffs when he was basically a 1 man team and still couldn't be completely shut down...

[Dro]

Insane athletic ability who had Bird-like skills w/ ELITE defense.

Mike is one of the few GREAT athletes that was ALSO fundamentally sound..
Quoted for emphasis...

[TheMan]

LeBron could easily average 35 today if he tried and could average 40+ over multiple years in MJs era with ease.
LeBron is so much better in everything but scoring than MJ its ridiculous.
biggest confirm of this is MJs saltiness torwards branban
I don't care about your opinion, you never saw prime MJ so you're talking about something you don't know...

MJ is racking up the votes of those who've seen both:applause:

Honestly, not surprised either :pimp:

[AirFederer]

Not even Stevie Wonder

[SilkkTheShocker]

Saw them both.

LeBron is simply better. Hell, Bron is even better a baseball :oldlol:

[The_Pharcyde]

I don't care about your opinion, you never saw prime MJ so you're talking about something you don't know...

MJ is racking up the votes of those who've seen both:applause:

Honestly, not surprised either :pimp:


Damn, you just put him in his place

[Marlo_Stanfield]

I don't care about your opinion, you never saw prime MJ so you're talking about something you don't know...

MJ is racking up the votes of those who've seen both:applause:

Honestly, not surprised either :pimp:
keep telling that to yourself:oldlol: :oldlol:
lebron would make jordan shoot fadeaways all game if he guarded him:roll: :roll:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Saw them both.

LeBron is simply better. Hell, Bron is even better a baseball :oldlol:
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Droid101]

Been watching since 1992. MJ is better. It's not even really close.

LeBron is more physically gifted though. Way less skilled.


Saw them both.

LeBron is simply better. Hell, Bron is even better a baseball :oldlol:
How does it feel to be on the wrong side of everything? I mean, it must be exhausting right?

[SilkkTheShocker]

I'm 40.
Jordan is better. By quite a lot.

Still overrated as fcuk though. There have been many many great players and MJ had/has profited the most due to the game having become available via satelite and cable TV worldwide. Having had Magic and Bird building the whole tension through the 80's also helped him a lot.

LeBron is a special player, but it's mainly a result of his physical abilities. MJ was as athletic as one can be but he was also an assassin (something LeBron is not) and a very skilled player (something LeBron also isn't).

Aren't you the same dipshit that made the LeBron is a "very good, but not great" basketball player thread? You're a known Kobe nut rider dude.

[KirbyPls]

I am 33 and watched both of their primes.

Lebron is my favorite player ever, However, MJ is the consensus GOAT for a reason. He is the greatest scorer ever in my opinion, as well as the undisputed greatest playoff scorer ever (which is far more important in my opinion). He is also the better man defender and all around defender, as Lebron's slight advantage in help defense does not cancel MJ's advantage as a man defender.

Lebron is the marginally better rebounder and passer, but it is closer than Lebron stans (like me) want to admit. Lebron's only clear, significant advantage is that he is essentially a point guard and runs the Heat's offense, which I beleive is maybe his greatest strength and something that MJ did not really do on a consistent basis, in no small part because of the triangle system. Even this advantage however is not enormous, because MJ could run an offense if that was what was needed.

Lebron's peak is in the same league as MJ's, but it is not quite there, and of course, despite Lebron's consistent greatness in the playoffs through most of his career, MJ never had a 2011 Finals or 2010 Game 5 against Boston. Overall, Lebron's ceiling is likely top 3, but I believe he will finish his career around #5 all-time, but he has more work to do. MJ is GOAT to the vast majority, including me.

When I think MJ, this is what I think of: I spent most of the 1998 Summer in Rome as a high-school graduation present from my parents (and paid for much of it myself). I did not watch any of the Finals, but the morning after Game 6, my best friend and I went to a kiosk to grab a newspaper to see what happened. My friend and I saw MJ's 45 points and sixth title win. While we were both duly impressed with the 45 points in the clincher, neither of us was surprised...at all. That is really all that needs to be said about MJ, IMO. 45 points in a title-clinching Finals win, and it was expected. The 16 years since has only added additional perspective and context to MJ's greatness.

For the record, I cannot stand MJ, and Lebron is my all-time favorite player ever, but MJ will never be surpassed by Lebron.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Been watching since 1992. MJ is better. It's not even really close.

LeBron is more physically gifted though. Way less skilled.


How does it feel to be on the wrong side of everything? I mean, it must be exhausting right?

What would you even talk about on here if it wasn't for me? 98% of your posts are just you bitching. Im in your head so bad you put me on the ignore list than took me off because you couldn't resist reply to everything I typed. You're a ****in puppet, son. A monkey following around his organ grinder. You're trash.

[KirbyPls]

What would you even talk about on here if it wasn't for me? 98% of your posts are just you bitching. Im in your head so bad you put me on the ignore list than took me off because you couldn't resist reply to everything I typed. You're a ****in puppet, son. A monkey following around his organ grinder. You're trash.

:lol

[chocolatethunder]

I'm 41 and it's MJ by a mile. Really what separates Jordan from almost everyone else is that he was a killer. He never lost a finals. When games were on the line or if you needed anything, a bucket, a steal, a rebound, a pass or a dunk to get everyone going, he was the guy to do that. He was just so smart and had ice in his veins. After he got over the hump of beating the Pistons, he was just unbreakable. He also learned from his mistakes which almost no young players do because they all believe that they are "the best". Jordan knew he was the best but he also knew that being the best means that you have to keep improving. It would be wild to see what a dude like that would do to a league with no hand checking allowed. I think LBJ is a fantastic player and will for sure be an all time great but they're not the same kind of player. Lebron isn't a killer like Jordan. Kobe was much more like Jordan. He wasn't as good but you can compare those two more easily. I'm not hating on Bron and I'm not just saying MJ isn't the best cause I'm old. I hated Jordan when he played.

[SpecialQue]

I hate both players and think Jordan is overrated as fvck, but Jordan is a much better player than Lebron.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan is pretty clearly better. I have literally never gotten the sense that I was watching the best player to ever play when I watch Lebron. Did I feel that I was watching ONE of the greatest ever? Sure. But he can't do the things Jordan did, and isn't as potent a weapon on both ends overall.

[jlip]

Jim Boeheim thinks that Lebron might be better than MJ.

[oarabbus]

I'm 40.
Jordan is better. By quite a lot.

LeBron is a special player, but it's mainly a result of his physical abilities. MJ was as athletic as one can be but he was also an assassin (something LeBron is not) and a very skilled player (something LeBron also isn't).


Bingo. LeBron is more physically gifted than Jordan. It's not even close. LeBron is a wrecking ball beast of a human being that Jordan could only dream of being.

He just doesn't have "it" like Jordan does, though. He just can't ice it like Jordan could. Game 6 ECF 2012 is one of the only displays of dominance that compares to Jordan.

[RIP CITY]

Not really. I'm asking the older heads here who saw both their primes. No fvcks will be given to the opinions of youngsters who only have seen YouTube videos.


I watched Jordan is his prime and he was significantly better. But the sad part is, even the fans that have only seen the Youtube videos should be able to see that Jordan was better just by watching those vids (plus Youtube has full games anyway).

[TheMan]

Saw them both.

LeBron is simply better. Hell, Bron is even better a baseball :oldlol:
:oldlol: Sure kid, sure...

[sdot_thadon]

Watched them both in their respective primes, I'm hard pressed to say Lebron is better than Mj but it's just as difficult for me to say he's not on his level. He is point blank, they play the game in different ways and are expected to do different things for their teams. It's quite stupid to expect Lebron to average 35 ppg or act like he can't when it's not what his role is for his team. Just like it's stupid to expect Mj to be his team's de facto point guard when we know full well it wasn't his role either.

The whole Lebron couldn't survive in the handchecking era theme is retarded, the guy is a tank and excels at playing through contact:biggums:

Mj averaging 40 in this era huh? Yeah cause we have totally watch him destroy these modern nba zones and strong side schemes......

Again personally I feel Mj is better, slightly better. Lebron is occupying Jordan's old spot, era bias is real. Jordan guys starting to sound like Magic and Bird guys, Wilt guys, Russell guys etc. Back in my day types. You see where that got perception of those guys careers at the end of the day........keep it real guys.

[BlackVVaves]

All you need to do is look at Jordan's 88-92 seasons to get your answer.

Best offensive player on the floor. And for some of those seasons the best defensive player on the floor. Pure domination, two-fold.

LeBron at his best defensively thusfar was not as dominant, consistently enough, as Jordan at his best defensively. And his play-making ability, though grand, does not fill that void enough to implore me to believe prime or peak LeBron has been more productive than prime or peak MJ.

He still has time to grow his game further. But, cruising or not, it doesn't negate the somewhat underwhelming season he had, by GOAT standards, or even typical LeBron standards.

[TheMan]

I am 33 and watched both of their primes.

Lebron is my favorite player ever, However, MJ is the consensus GOAT for a reason. He is the greatest scorer ever in my opinion, as well as the undisputed greatest playoff scorer ever (which is far more important in my opinion). He is also the better man defender and all around defender, as Lebron's slight advantage in help defense does not cancel MJ's advantage as a man defender.

Lebron is the marginally better rebounder and passer, but it is closer than Lebron stans (like me) want to admit. Lebron's only clear, significant advantage is that he is essentially a point guard and runs the Heat's offense, which I beleive is maybe his greatest strength and something that MJ did not really do on a consistent basis, in no small part because of the triangle system. Even this advantage however is not enormous, because MJ could run an offense if that was what was needed.

Lebron's peak is in the same league as MJ's, but it is not quite there, and of course, despite Lebron's consistent greatness in the playoffs through most of his career, MJ never had a 2011 Finals or 2010 Game 5 against Boston. Overall, Lebron's ceiling is likely top 3, but I believe he will finish his career around #5 all-time, but he has more work to do. MJ is GOAT to the vast majority, including me.

When I think MJ, this is what I think of: I spent most of the 1998 Summer in Rome as a high-school graduation present from my parents (and paid for much of it myself). I did not watch any of the Finals, but the morning after Game 6, my best friend and I went to a kiosk to grab a newspaper to see what happened. My friend and I saw MJ's 45 points and sixth title win. While we were both duly impressed with the 45 points in the clincher, neither of us was surprised...at all. That is really all that needs to be said about MJ, IMO. 45 points in a title-clinching Finals win, and it was expected. The 16 years since has only added additional perspective and context to MJ's greatness.

For the record, I cannot stand MJ, and Lebron is my all-time favorite player ever, but MJ will never be surpassed by Lebron.
:applause:

Intelligent and thoughtful post, unlike the garbage most Bran stans write.

[TheMan]

There is a pattern here so far...

So far everyone that have seen both players, whether or not they stan either player have said MJ > LeBron.

Silkktheshocker and MarloStanfield, trolling as usual :oldlol:

Your opinions don't count for you know not what you're talking about, kids :no:

[f0und]

34 here

jordan>>>>lebron

biggest difference being mental

[sdot_thadon]

There is a pattern here so far...

So far everyone that have seen both players, whether or not they stan either player have said MJ > LeBron.

Silkktheshocker and MarloStanfield, trolling as usual :oldlol:

Your opinions don't count for you know not what you're talking about, kids :no:
The ironic thing about your whole topic is as Mj fans we grew up with older fans telling us these exact same things about Mj. So if anything our generation should identify with them and have a better perspective. As a 30 plus year old man the average Mj fan should be able to see and ignore troll shit as it comes, not add to it. The way most of you express yourselves when it comes to Mj is at times just as trollish as these kids......just sayin.

[russwest0]

MJ is far better but everytime someone brings up this debate just to prove that all it does is give LeBron more credibility

[Trollsmasher]

I saw them both and I'll go with the guy that does not need Scottie Pippen to have a winning record.

[dreamwarrior]

Lebron is like a god-mode character in a video game. But MJ was like an actual god on the court. If Lebron is Hercules, MJ was Zeus. MJ could do everything better than Lebron but he didn't always do it. For example if the two were to play a game and make a competition of who could get the most assists MJ would come out on top. MJ also has the same career rebound high (19) as Lebron yet playing at a disadvantaged position.

[KirbyPls]

MJ is far better but everytime someone brings up this debate just to prove that all it does is give LeBron more credibility

MJ > Bron, as I stated earlier, but Russ do you think that the credibility is completely unwarranted?

Regardless of your answer, you have upped your posting significantly since the playoffs started and shed some significant trolling tendencies, while not being a b!tch and disappearing from ISH when your team and KD were struggling. Props to you. :applause:

[J Shuttlesworth]

Peak for peak, MJ was better. Better defender, off ball player and scorer. Bron is a better rebounder and playmaker, but it's easier to exploit Bron than MJ. No matter what defensive tactic you played, he'd still get his, either with insane driving to the hoop or the killer midrange (and post later on). As we have seen, Bron can struggle when faced with an organised defense that shuts lanes off - his jumpshot is not completely reliable.

However, even as an MJ fan, I'm not going to go as far as saying 'way better'. It's close, which is a huge compliment to Bron. The only peaks I'd rank with MJ are the bigs (Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt, Kareem). Bron is slightly below.

Note: not talking about career, just peaks, which would mean 2011 is irrelevant to me. 2012-present Bron is a different animal.
Agreed with this post, and I'm a LeBron stan. Peak MJ was better, but it's not as if he was on a whole different planet

[PsychoBe]

mj and it's not even close. we all know that mj is the conensus goat and we shouldn't have to say why anymore. his accomplishments on the basketball court have been ingrained into human lore.

[TheMan]

The ironic thing about your whole topic is as Mj fans we grew up with older fans telling us these exact same things about Mj. So if anything our generation should identify with them and have a better perspective. As a 30 plus year old man the average Mj fan should be able to see and ignore troll shit as it comes, not add to it. The way most of you express yourselves when it comes to Mj is at times just as trollish as these kids......just sayin.
Not me, I've said this before and I'll say it again, MJ is the GOAT that I've ever seen. I readily admit Ive never seen prime KAJ ir Wilt so therefore I'm open to the possibility of those two being in the conversation:confusedshrug:

[KirbyPls]

Agreed with this post, and I'm a LeBron stan. Peak MJ was better, but it's not as if he was on a whole different planet

I agree.

[TheMan]

I saw them both and I'll go with the guy that does not need Scottie Pippen to have a winning record.
Your knowledge of basketball is breathtakingly low, stick to soccer.

[Warfan]

Pretty much no one actually believes lebron was the better player unless they're trolling, but I don't get how can u say 'its not even close', 'Jordan by a mile', 'mj was waaaay better'. What? All the top 10 GOATs played at very close levels, no need for exaggeration, even if you are comparing someone to the GOAT. Especially LeBron whose peak/prime is probably a few spots higher than where most people would rank his career.

[Trollsmasher]

Your knowledge of basketball is breathtakingly low, stick to soccer.
:confusedshrug: GOAT should not need a TOP 5 SF in his prime to win at least half of his games

[DMV2]

I saw second 3-peat Jordan, which was not even close to his prime yet he was unstoppable. You just don't bet against him. MJ rarely, rarely ever collapsed or showed any sign of being overwhelmed by pressure.

With LeBron, we've seen it way too many times with him. Not jut in the loses but also in wins like Game 6 of the Finals vs the Spurs. Dude did nothing the first 3 qtr's and then exploded the 4th until the final minutes. LeBron haters will say Allen saved but you gotta give credit to LeBron for carrying them back.

I think the biggest difference between them is that Jordan trusted his teammates every time. LeBron does so much that when he's having an off-night and it looks like he's clueless out there at times. I think he finally learned to trust his teammates in the Thunder Finals series.

Another big difference is that LeBron shows his weaknesses when he's cold.

[BlackVVaves]

Can we stop saying its not even close though? Like impact for impact, it's as comparable as its ever been for a subsequent superstar earning his keep on the perimeter post 98.

So, it's close. It just doesn't favor LeBron. I'm not even harping on the intangible perceptive approach, like trying to quantify traits like "killer instinct." Just, defensively, there's a stark contrast in effectiveness between the two.

MJ would routinely drop 40 on you, dish out 6 assists within the frame of the system, and completely shut down your perimeter offense single-handedly. And, his man defense was only amplified in the scope of team defense once Pippen himself developed.

[Jailblazers7]

I think Jordan had a certain precision to his game that Lebron lacks. I think part of it might be mental because Jordan had such a lazer focus when he really turned it on but I think part of it is the advantage Jordan had in body control and agility. The skill advantage that Jordan has stems a lot from those physical advantages. Both factors are a reason why MJ was such a lockdown defender too.

The one thing that Lebron does better than Jordan tho is he plays the percentages better than almost anyone. He really gets the "geometry of the game" which leads to him producing efficient looks at the basket (whether its him or a teammate) consistently.

I think it really is much closer than people think but the differences in style play to Jordan's advantage because of the narrative of his career. I would still give the edge to MJ but to say that it's not even close is crazy.

And btw, people who are in their early to mid 30's would have been in their teens during both of MJ's title runs. Not sure how someone's opinion is more valid because they watched Jordan as a 12 year old who is at the prime age to begin worshiping the mythology that the media created around him.

[The Iron Fist]

Jordans mental approach puts him beyond Bron by miles.

[TheMan]

:confusedshrug: GOAT should not need a TOP 5 SF in his prime to win at least half of his games
GOAT wouldn't need to stack the deck with a top 3-5 NBA player former FMVP and an All Star PF to start winning chips either:confusedshrug:

BTW, if Pippen is so great, how many FMVPs did he win?

Get back in my pocket, son.

[Trollsmasher]

For real though, one thing that will always separate MJ from LeBron is decisiveness.

You can try to quantify killer instinct and such, but as long as LeBron takes 5 jab stebs before every jumpshot and 2 seconds to just turn around in the post, he will never reach MJ who was always ready to strike like a snake and knew what he was going to do before the pass even came to him.

GOAT wouldn't need to stack the deck with a top 3-5 NBA player former FMVP and an All Star PF to start winning chips either:confusedshrug:

BTW, if Pippen is so great, how many FMVPs did he win?

Get back in my pocket, son.
LeBron needed to stack the deck to win the rings, MJ needed to stack the deck to win games:confusedshrug:

[HurricaneKid]

Its so hard to compare different ages of the game. Jordan was clearly the more dominant player. IMO that was largely because the league wanted its stars to dominate games and almost completely disallowed help defense, etc. Durant's difficulties against Memphis show that anyone can be made human in today's game. The game in the 80s and 90s was checkers compared to the offensive and defensive sets being played today. And NO, Jordan would not avg 40 in today's game. Not anywhere near it. LeBron's abject domination of the league over the last 5 years is highly impressive to me because he has been bracketed by 4 defenders the whole time. Whereas defenses weren't even allowed to fake bringing a double team to MJ without getting a T.

Aesthetically, Jordan was awe-inspiring to watch. He was smooth and his game was beautiful to behold. He floated through the air and glided through defenses. LeBron's game is far clunkier, though highly efficient. He crushes smaller defenders with his size and bigger defenders with his quickness. LeBron is almost the exact measurements of Karl Malone. And he is the fastest player on the floor and the player that runs the offense.

Jordan's defense is probably overrated. I think Scottie was the better defender throughout pretty much any given season, though a few would have been close. I recall a watching a game with my then coach that the Bulls lost on a last second shot because MJ didn't block out his man, just ran to the hoop. LeBron is a god defensively on drives and as a help defender, but is a mess chasing after shooters, losing his man, etc.

In the end who is better? Its not a fair question. Jordan's era was made to showcase the elite player. LeBron's era was made to showcase the game.

I do honestly believe that 2009 era LeBron as every bit the player that MJ ever was. And I say this as a grown man who has a framed 90s poster of MJ on his wall and who buys his kid Jordan gear.

[chocolatethunder]

GOAT wouldn't need to stack the deck with a top 3-5 NBA player former FMVP and an All Star PF to start winning chips either:confusedshrug:

BTW, if Pippen is so great, how many FMVPs did he win?

Get back in my pocket, son.
Foreal. Pip was a mental midget. He was a great second guy but did not have the mental makeup to be the man. Jordan was a killer already without Pip. He was an important part of their team no doubt but he's not responsible for Jordan being who he is.

[BlackVVaves]

I think Jordan had a certain precision to his game that Lebron lacks. I think part of it might be mental because Jordan had such a lazer focus when he really turned it on but I think part of it is the advantage Jordan had in body control and agility. The skill advantage that Jordan has stems a lot from those physical advantages. Both factors are a reason why MJ was such a lockdown defender too.

The one thing that Lebron does better than Jordan tho is he plays the percentages better than almost anyone. He really gets the "geometry of the game" which leads to him producing efficient looks at the basket (whether its him or a teammate) consistently.

I think it really is much closer than people think but the differences in style play to Jordan's advantage because of the narrative of his career. I would still give the edge to MJ but to say that it's not even close is crazy.

And btw, people who are in their early to mid 30's would have been in their teens during both of MJ's title runs. Not sure how someone's opinion is more valid because they watched Jordan as a 12 year old who is at the prime age to begin worshiping the mythology that the media created around him.

You think a 12 year old can't understand basic concepts as it relates to team dynamic and individual impact? Maybe the casual fan, not those of us who grew up playing basketball, both street and organized, in households with older siblings or family members who provided mature insight to immature students of the game.

Now. If we are talking guys like Jameer who are 14, never played much basketball in their life, started watching the NBA 6 years ago, and carry a diluted perspective on NBA history....then I agree with you.

[chocolatethunder]

Its so hard to compare different ages of the game. Jordan was clearly the more dominant player. IMO that was largely because the league wanted its stars to dominate games and almost completely disallowed help defense, etc. Durant's difficulties against Memphis show that anyone can be made human in today's game. The game in the 80s and 90s was checkers compared to the offensive and defensive sets being played today. And NO, Jordan would not avg 40 in today's game. Not anywhere near it. LeBron's abject domination of the league over the last 5 years is highly impressive to me because he has been bracketed by 4 defenders the whole time. Whereas defenses weren't even allowed to fake bringing a double team to MJ without getting a T.

Aesthetically, Jordan was awe-inspiring to watch. He was smooth and his game was beautiful to behold. He floated through the air and glided through defenses. LeBron's game is far clunkier, though highly efficient. He crushes smaller defenders with his size and bigger defenders with his quickness. LeBron is almost the exact measurements of Karl Malone. And he is the fastest player on the floor and the player that runs the offense.

Jordan's defense is probably overrated. I think Scottie was the better defender throughout pretty much any given season, though a few would have been close. I recall a watching a game with my then coach that the Bulls lost on a last second shot because MJ didn't block out his man, just ran to the hoop. LeBron is a god defensively on drives and as a help defender, but is a mess chasing after shooters, losing his man, etc.

In the end who is better? Its not a fair question. Jordan's era was made to showcase the elite player. LeBron's era was made to showcase the game.

I do honestly believe that 2009 era LeBron as every bit the player that MJ ever was. And I say this as a grown man who has a framed 90s poster of MJ on his wall and who buys his kid Jordan gear.

I don't really follow you here. You can't hand check anymore so how did hand checking in Jordan's era help promote the star and not the team? The rules now favor guards and they did not favor guards in Jordan's era.

[Dro]

I don't really follow you here. You can't hand check anymore so how did hand checking in Jordan's era help promote the star and not the team? The rules now favor guards and they did not favor guards in Jordan's era.
Exactly...

[TheMan]

For real though, one thing that will always separate MJ from LeBron is decisiveness.

You can try to quantify killer instinct and such, but as long as LeBron takes 5 jab stebs before every jumpshot and 2 seconds to just turn around in the post, he will never reach MJ who was always ready to strike like a snake and knew what he was going to do before the pass even came to him.

LeBron needed to stack the deck to win the rings, MJ needed to stack the deck to win games:confusedshrug:
MJ got drafted by a losing franchise (admittedly LeBron was too), he had crap around him those years and he was going up against great EC teams like the Celtics, 76ers, Pistons, Cavs and Bucks.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Its so hard to compare different ages of the game. Jordan was clearly the more dominant player. IMO that was largely because the league wanted its stars to dominate games and almost completely disallowed help defense, etc. Durant's difficulties against Memphis show that anyone can be made human in today's game. The game in the 80s and 90s was checkers compared to the offensive and defensive sets being played today. And NO, Jordan would not avg 40 in today's game. Not anywhere near it. LeBron's abject domination of the league over the last 5 years is highly impressive to me because he has been bracketed by 4 defenders the whole time. Whereas defenses weren't even allowed to fake bringing a double team to MJ without getting a T.

What sort of bullshit is this? :oldlol: Jordan is the most double-teamed perimeter player in history by a good margin. lmao @ clowns acting like dude was on an island every possession and just cleared a side and had some easy lane to the basket. He was the most double-teamed player, the paint was FAR more crowded than today, there were actual shotblockers waiting inside, and far more physicality was allowed.

GFTO with this nonsense. :oldlol:

[Knoe Itawl]

36, like both players. However, MJ is just the superior player period. I think Bron will retire top 5 most likely but he will not attain the heights that Jordan did IMO. Which is no shame. It's that damn hard to match or surpass MJ.

[ArbitraryWater]

Like my thread title says...this thread is exclusively for those who saw prime or at least some of MJ's prime from early mid 90s and think LeBron is just as good if not better? Even better if you're not a fan of either player for a more unbiased opinion...

Honestly, in my personal experience talking to those who have seen both MJ's and LBJ's career, not many think LBJ is on MJ's level. The young cats love saying nostalgia but naw, that ain't it, I'm an MJ fan but being as nuetral as I can be, I just ain't seeing it. MJ would NEVER EVER have a 2011 Finals performance. MJ has had his share of postseason losses but the opposition were legendary squads like those Bird Celtics and Thomas Pistons (still put up stud stats vs those teams in losing efforts)...I just can't see MJ getting punked by the likes of Terry and Marion.:confusedshrug:

What say you?


We get it, MJ wouldnt have a 2011 Finals series.... so this banned LeBron forever from the GOAT Debate?

[ArbitraryWater]

Been watching since 1992. MJ is better. It's not even really close.

LeBron is more physically gifted though. Way less skilled.


How does it feel to be on the wrong side of everything? I mean, it must be exhausting right?


Funny cause I'll tell you right now, most of these posters here who saw MJ play, when honest, would admit LeBron > Kobe... Im sure even Imdaman would admit it

[ArbitraryWater]

What would you even talk about on here if it wasn't for me? 98% of your posts are just you bitching. Im in your head so bad you put me on the ignore list than took me off because you couldn't resist reply to everything I typed. You're a ****in puppet, son. A monkey following around his organ grinder. You're trash.

:oldlol:

[red1]

Its all about the jumpshot. Lebron improved but still isnt on that level where he can consistently go to it at the end of games.

[ArbitraryWater]

mj and it's not even close. we all know that mj is the conensus goat and we shouldn't have to say why anymore. his accomplishments on the basketball court have been ingrained into human lore.

Please, GTFO of this thread, kid. You also thought what KD did last night was "legendary" :oldlol:



----

My Take: Didnt see MJ play (Well, the Wizards version lol)

But MJ is the GOAT, and for LeBron to surpass him he better do some crazy shit like 5-peat and reach his Finals dominance for once.

[Trollsmasher]

What sort of bullshit is this? :oldlol: Jordan is the most double-teamed perimeter player in history by a good margin. lmao @ clowns acting like dude was on an island every possession and just cleared a side and had some easy lane to the basket. He was the most double-teamed player, the paint was FAR more crowded than today, there were actual shotblockers waiting inside, and far more physicality was allowed.

GFTO with this nonsense. :oldlol:
Average situations for both players:
http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4183421/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_9.38.27_PM.png
http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/4183469/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_9.52.44_PM.png

[Kingwillball]

Saw MJ in his prime and throughout career however explosive wise physical freak wise Lebron in his Clev wise is unmatched. MJ had the killer instinct and once he broke through was no stopping him. Lebron is knocked cause if his failings in 2 finals especially one against mavs but since he has broke through now let's see if he is stopped ? U have to give slight edge to MJ 6 for 6 championships but Lebron is not far behind as some may suggest especially comparing careers at same age.

[hateraid]

I'm 37, watched ball since the Sixers won in 83. I can honestly say all around Lebron is a more skilled player

[TheMan]

Average situations for both players:
http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4183421/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_9.38.27_PM.png
http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/4183469/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_9.52.44_PM.png
Average situation for both player??? ROFL:roll:

It seems now that LeBron starts most of his attacks with his back to the basket :wtf: instead of facing up from the top of the key...Riiiiight:oldlol:

[BlackVVaves]

Saw MJ in his prime and throughout career however explosive wise physical freak wise Lebron in his Clev wise is unmatched. MJ had the killer instinct and once he broke through was no stopping him. Lebron is knocked cause if his failings in 2 finals especially one against mavs but since he has broke through now let's see if he is stopped ? U have to give slight edge to MJ 6 for 6 championships but Lebron is not far behind as some may suggest especially comparing careers at same age.

I don't even think we are talking rings. Or at least, my assessment didn't consider it.

I've been referencing impact on the court, and though Bron is probably top 3 in NBA history in terms of overall impact, and will at the least end up a top 5 GOAT player, he just doesn't provide the defensive dominance on the perimeter in regards to man defense that MJ consistently did during his peak. I'd like to see Bron exhibit that 2009, 2010 kind of profound defensive effectiveness, and then ELEVATE that productivity and ferociousness to another uncharted level; then, I will be able to put Bron and MJ into the same sentence defensively.

[TheMan]

I'm 37, watched ball since the Sixers won in 83. I can honestly say all around Lebron is a more skilled player
Ok, you're entitled to your opinion, I disagree wholeheartedly but if you aren't lying about your age, I'll put you as the first poster who saw both their primes and believes LBJ > MJ.

Only took 6 pages for Bran to get his first vote :applause:

[greymatter]

No, Lebron isn't better.

But unlike what consumers of copious amounts of Jordan cockmeat sandwiches would have you believe, Lebron isn't that far behind.

[KirbyPls]

This simple folks:

MJ is the best player I've ever seen
LeBron is the 2nd best player I've ever seen
Kobe is the 2nd best guard I've ever seen

Their championships, influence, talent, league wide respect is basically proof of all of the above. No need for the constant pissing matches. LeBron, and Kobe are close to Jordan. But there is a ten percent ding comparing their absolute bests to one another where MJ eclipses either / or. In LeBron's case it's mentality, and skill set. In Kobe's case it's athleticism, and leadership.

:applause: Thread/

[ArbitraryWater]

Ok, you're entitled to your opinion, I disagree wholeheartedly but if you aren't lying about your age, I'll put you as the first poster who saw both their primes and believes LBJ > MJ.

Only took 6 pages for Bran to get his first vote :applause:

For you to not ruin your credibility you must at least add silkk/marl/trollsmasher... you cant just assume their age just because they chose lebron.

[SamuraiSWISH]

This simple folks:

MJ is the best player I've ever seen
LeBron is the 2nd best player I've ever seen
Kobe is the 2nd best guard I've ever seen

Their championships, influence, talent, league wide respect, hyper fan base is basically proof of all of the above. No need for the constant pissing matches. LeBron, and Kobe are close to Jordan. But there is a ten percent ding comparing their absolute bests to one another where MJ eclipses either / or. In LeBron's case it's mental toughness, and skill set. In Kobe's case it's athleticism, and leadership.

Also, notice

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1203/nba-dancers-laker-girls/images/laker-girls-op34-1638-mid.jpg

Are the only ones to say this:


Jordan is better. By quite a lot.

Still overrated as fcuk though.



I hate both players and think Jordan is overrated as fvck, but Jordan is a much better player than Lebron.

Because that makes PERFECT sense.

[HurricaneKid]

You think a 12 year old can't understand basic concepts as it relates to team dynamic and individual impact?

Nah, every time I come here I recognize that about 5% of posters here can understand basic basketball concepts. So unless everyone here is 12 outside of me...


I don't really follow you here. You can't hand check anymore so how did hand checking in Jordan's era help promote the star and not the team? The rules now favor guards and they did not favor guards in Jordan's era.

Hand checking? You think you could move LeBron with a hand-check? I'm talking about where the defense could legally help from. Move Bill Cartwright to the opposite corner and there was no help from bigs, or at least help that came way too late. LeBron couldn't overcome the Thibs (as essentially D-Coor for the Celts) front help D. His man would push him into a helper and if he somehow elevated above both of them he ran smack into a front side big who was there to devour his shot. It would have eaten MJ too. He just never had to deal with the level of help defense that exists today. Stockton and Malone led the second best team of an era running PnR with Hornecek replacing and ALMOST NOTHING ELSE. Because defenses weren't allowed to defend.


What sort of bullshit is this? :oldlol: Jordan is the most double-teamed perimeter player in history by a good margin. lmao @ clowns acting like dude was on an island every possession and just cleared a side and had some easy lane to the basket. He was the most double-teamed player, the paint was FAR more crowded than today, there were actual shotblockers waiting inside, and far more physicality was allowed.

GFTO with this nonsense. :oldlol:

As I mentioned earlier... can't grasp what is happening defensively...

[Teanett]

i'm 39. jordan was the better player.
lebron is also a great player, just not as dominant as jordan.

[beastee]

Im 32, and Grew up in Chicago burbs watching every Jordan game. What made him so special was how smart he played the game. Every move was calculated. He played mind games with whomever guarded him. He had such a killer mentality, he just wanted to embarrass everyone...even if it meant his teammates if they crossed him. Physically he was the most gifted player during his peak other than Dominique. But his defensive intensity and overall Clutchness is what separates him from LeBron. Both are great players. MJ is THE best SG of all time no question. I think LeBron can be the best SF ever as well, so its been a pleasure to enjoy both amazing talents.

[riseagainst]

Because that makes PERFECT sense.

how does it not make sense? They just don't think Jordan is the GOAT, but they still think he's better than Lebron.

[DaSeba5]

This simple folks:

MJ is the best player I've ever seen
LeBron is the 2nd best player I've ever seen
Kobe is the 2nd best guard I've ever seen

Their championships, influence, talent, league wide respect, hyper fan base is basically proof of all of the above. No need for the constant pissing matches. LeBron, and Kobe are close to Jordan. But there is a ten percent ding comparing their absolute bests to one another where MJ eclipses either / or. In LeBron's case it's mental toughness, and skill set. In Kobe's case it's athleticism, and leadership.

This

[ArbitraryWater]

how does it not make sense? They just don't think Jordan is the GOAT, but they still think he's better than Lebron.

They're spoiled little fkn douchebags that can't get over the fact that a non Laker is GOAT.

[TheMan]

For you to not ruin your credibility you must at least add silkk/marl/trollsmasher... you cant just assume their age just because they chose lebron.
I for a fact know that Silkk didn't see prime MJ (he's mentioned it before), I suspect Marlo and TS of being too young or I might be wrong and they just aren't that knowledgeable of pre 2000s bball. For the sake of argument, it's 4 votes for LeBron, about 20 for MJ so far.

[SamuraiSWISH]

They're spoiled little fkn douchebags that can't get over the fact that a non Laker is GOAT.
This actually really accurate description.

[Relinquish]

I Am 38 years old.

Prime mj is far better than bron.

Way better.

Mj in his prime in current nba would averAge 40+ easy.

:roll: :roll: :yaohappy:

[TheMan]

And before I start getting called a LeBron hater, I like LeBron, he's been the best player the last few years and surely will be in the GOAT lists, all I'm basically saying is that he isn't on MJ's level YET.

If LeBron destroys the league for a few more years and wins more chips and FMVPs, he'll have EARNED the right to have his name mentioned in the conversation. 2-3 titles won't cut it IMO.

[Bob Dole]

Saw both primes and jordan was better. Dude was really otherworldly.

Lebron is the next best thing on the perimeter that I have seen though, well him or Bird.

[DaSeba5]

And before I start getting called a LeBron hater, I like LeBron, he's been the best player the last few years and surely win be in the GOAT lists, all I'm basically saying is that he isn't on MJ's level YET.

If LeBron destroys the league for a few more years and wins more chips and FMVPs, he'll have EARNED the right to have his name mentioned in the conversation. 2-3 titles won't cut it IMO.

I think that's fair. We just have to wait and see what happens. I don't think he will ever pass MJ, but he will definitely be in the conversation.

[TheMan]

I think that's fair. We just have to wait and see what happens. I don't think he will ever pass MJ, but he will definitely be in the conversation.
:cheers:

He will def be in the conversation, my only beef is with those who claim he's already surpassed MJ.

[HurricaneKid]

Average situation for both player??? ROFL:roll:

It seems now that LeBron starts most of his attacks with his back to the basket :wtf: instead of facing up from the top of the key...Riiiiight:oldlol:

If your man was above the three point line it was illegal for you to be below the FT line (unless you were doubling the ball, in which case you had to go directly there). So YES. The rules dictated a complete lack of help defense. Its exactly what I was discussing when everyone said I was an idiot.

Which BTW, proved several of you have no comprehension how high level basketball was/is played.

[sdot_thadon]

Nah, every time I come here I recognize that about 5% of posters here can understand basic basketball concepts. So unless everyone here is 12 outside of me...



Hand checking? You think you could move LeBron with a hand-check? I'm talking about where the defense could legally help from. Move Bill Cartwright to the opposite corner and there was no help from bigs, or at least help that came way too late. LeBron couldn't overcome the Thibs (as essentially D-Coor for the Celts) front help D. His man would push him into a helper and if he somehow elevated above both of them he ran smack into a front side big who was there to devour his shot. It would have eaten MJ too. He just never had to deal with the level of help defense that exists today. Stockton and Malone led the second best team of an era running PnR with Hornecek replacing and ALMOST NOTHING ELSE. Because defenses weren't allowed to defend.



As I mentioned earlier... can't grasp what is happening defensively...

Thankfully someone here understands these concepts. A small victory of sorts for ISH, hopefully there are more out there.:applause:

[DaSeba5]

:cheers:

He will def be in the conversation, my only beef is with those who claim he's already surpassed MJ.

Not with only 2 rings.

[HurricaneKid]

If your man was above the three point line it was illegal for you to be below the FT line (unless you were doubling the ball, in which case you had to go directly there). So YES. The rules dictated a complete lack of help defense. Its exactly what I was discussing when everyone said I was an idiot.

Which BTW, proved several of you have no comprehension how high level basketball was/is played.

Again, the rules used to be set up to highlight elite players. They completely changed the way the game is played when they allowed zone defenses and opened up the kind of help defense that was played. Now, its a far better game to watch but the power the best players have over a game is extremely diminished. Now you can't take your man one-on-one. Because if you beat them there will be help. And lots of it. This was not always the case. Now you can shade off players far more. Back then every team had essentially a scorer and in the mid 80s almost 40 players avg 20 ppg. Last year that number went down to 9. If you put a defensive stopper/enforcer in the corner teams HAD to defend them and couldn't help off them. If you did the same thing now your best player would have almost a full two defenders guarding them. So you need to have more rounded players on the floor, or at least guys that can shoot to space the floor.

There is simply no way that MJ, or anyone else ever, could have taken those awful Cavs teams to a title the way the rules are currently set up. So when people talk about guys needing titles to be the best ever, it just rings hollow. Back in the day when your entire offensive arsenal was one guy it made plenty of sense to say you need to have the titles. But now that defenses can adjust their defenses to your personnel it really does just reflect who the best teams are.

[lakerspng]

Not with only 2 rings.

He has to show a different level of mental toughness. The mental edge is where Jordan has him outpaced the most.

In the finals last year, he was coasting the first 4-5 games when he should have been crushing. Game 6 was saved by a miracle shot and for most of that game, LeBron was passive. He rose to the occasion in game 7, but there were so many points in the games before where you could just sense, if he stepped on the gas, this series is over... and he didn't. Jordan would have. He doesn't have that killer instinct yet.

The truth is, when he's aggressive and attacking there is nothing the defense can really do to stop him, he's bigger, faster and stronger than any defender. But he takes the wait and see approach. f'n dominate like he's capable and there's no doubt he's one of, if not the best ever. But he holds himself back.

[TheMan]

If your man was above the three point line it was illegal for you to be below the FT line (unless you were doubling the ball, in which case you had to go directly there). So YES. The rules dictated a complete lack of help defense. Its exactly what I was discussing when everyone said I was an idiot.

Which BTW, proved several of you have no comprehension how high level basketball was/is played.
The game was different back then though, a few isolated pics aren't indicative of anything. The game was more inside out and the lanes were much more clogged by big men. Today, the game is more reliant on the three point shot so a defense has to decide whether they want to pack the paint and leave shooters open or deny the three point shot.

If Jordan were around today, surround him with shooters and he'll rack up the points or the assists, depending of what the D gives you. It ain't rocket science.

[HurricaneKid]

The truth is, when he's aggressive and attacking there is nothing the defense can really do to stop him, he's bigger, faster and stronger than any defender.

You completely fail to recognize how he is defended by elite teams. Yes, he will ALWAYS have either a strength or quickness advantage (sometimes both) over anyone. But teams don't guard him with one player. They guard him with at least three and often 4. And no one can just will their way through that.

[DaSeba5]

He has to show a different level of mental toughness. The mental edge is where Jordan has him outpaced the most.

In the finals last year, he was coasting the first 4-5 games when he should have been crushing. Game 6 was saved by a miracle shot and for most of that game, LeBron was passive. He rose to the occasion in game 7, but there were so many points in the games before where you could just sense, if he stepped on the gas, this series is over... and he didn't. Jordan would have. He doesn't have that killer instinct yet.

The truth is, when he's aggressive and attacking there is nothing the defense can really do to stop him, he's bigger, faster and stronger than any defender. But he takes the wait and see approach. f'n dominate like he's capable and there's no doubt he's one of, if not the best ever. But he holds himself back.

He doesn't have a consistent jump shot and good teams exploit that. He wasn't coasting, he just couldn't find his shot until game 6 and 7. You can't simply expect him to drive into Diaw, Duncan, ect. and expect him to score 2 points. Dallas did the same thing. They dare him to shoot. If he makes his shots, he's unstoppable. If he misses them and can't make his jump shots, he has to impact the game another way (by passing). At least he posts up now and gets high quality shots. Back in 2011, players like Barea could guard him because he would choose to do a fadeaway shot rather than post up.

[lakerspng]

You completely fail to recognize how he is defended by elite teams. Yes, he will ALWAYS have either a strength or quickness advantage (sometimes both) over anyone. But teams don't guard him with one player. They guard him with at least three and often 4. And no one can just will their way through that.

every great player's been guarded that way.

you find ways to get the ball in your spots. you work off the ball inside the paint, inside of 15 feet, in the high and low post.... not only off screens around the perimeter. Aggressively put yourself into the position to demand the ball and attack the defense. he doesn't do that nearly enough.

[TheMan]

Again, the rules used to be set up to highlight elite players. They completely changed the way the game is played when they allowed zone defenses and opened up the kind of help defense that was played. Now, its a far better game to watch but the power the best players have over a game is extremely diminished. Now you can't take your man one-on-one. Because if you beat them there will be help. And lots of it. This was not always the case. Now you can shade off players far more. Back then every team had essentially a scorer and in the mid 80s almost 40 players avg 20 ppg. Last year that number went down to 9. If you put a defensive stopper/enforcer in the corner teams HAD to defend them and couldn't help off them. If you did the same thing now your best player would have almost a full two defenders guarding them. So you need to have more rounded players on the floor, or at least guys that can shoot to space the floor.


I don't know what you're arguing, zone defenses are hardly ever used, their impact isn't that much, some teams basically never go zone. All the rule changes have been made to enhance the offense, not defense. :confusedshrug:

[lakerspng]

He doesn't have a consistent jump shot and good teams exploit that. He wasn't coasting, he just couldn't find his shot until game 6 and 7. You can't simply expect him to drive into Diaw, Duncan, ect. and expect him to score 2 points. Dallas did the same thing. They dare him to shoot. If he makes his shots, he's unstoppable. If he misses them and can't make his jump shots, he has to impact the game another way (by passing). At least he posts up now and gets high quality shots. Back in 2011, players like Barea could guard him because he would choose to do a fadeaway shot rather than post up.

true, and that's what made Jordan so deadly and almost un-guardable. His mid range game. Lebron can work on that, but honestly I think it's more doing what he is now, and more often.... setting up closer to the basket. working out of the post. he's much better than he was but can still improve. Just go inside, collapse the defense. He's always worked from the outside in and defenses have adapted to it.

[HurricaneKid]

The game was different back then though, a few isolated pics aren't indicative of anything.

This is just so...

No. The defense is enormously different. Those other 4 players in the pictures everyone seems to love to dismiss COULD NOT SHADE TO MJ. IT WAS A Tech. The pics point out the failures of the old defensive rules. AND WHY IS WAS SO MUCH EASIER TO SCORE IN ISO.


every great player's been guarded that way.

you find ways to get the ball in your spots. you work off the ball inside the paint, inside of 15 feet, in the high and low post.... not only off screens around the perimeter. Aggressively put yourself into the position to demand the ball and attack the defense. he doesn't do that nearly enough.

This is just so...

No. The defense is enormously different. THE DEFENSE COULD NOT SHADE TO MJ. Doing so was a TECHNICAL FOUL.



It ain't rocket science.

No. Its not. And yet...

[HurricaneKid]

I don't know what you're arguing, zone defenses are hardly ever used, their impact isn't that much, some teams basically never go zone. All the rule changes have been made to enhance the offense, not defense. :confusedshrug:

Its not a zone. The other defenders on the floor are now designed to defend the player with the ball. They were forbidden to do so in the past.

And you are flat out wrong about what they were designed to do. They were designed to get rid of three off guys in the opposite corner playing pattycake forcing their defenders to play pattycake with them while teams played two, and sometimes three man basketball.

[lakerspng]

This is just so...

No. The defense is enormously different. Those other 4 players in the pictures everyone seems to love to dismiss COULD NOT SHADE TO MJ. IT WAS A Tech. The pics point out the failures of the old defensive rules. AND WHY IS WAS SO MUCH EASIER TO SCORE IN ISO.



This is just so...

No. The defense is enormously different. THE DEFENSE COULD NOT SHADE TO MJ. Doing so was a TECHNICAL FOUL.




No. Its not. And yet...

So now players can move to double slower, that's about the only real in game difference. They used to have to double hard, now they can sit in spaces... that effects big men more than it does perimeter players... that change was instituted to slow down Shaq more than anyone else.

every great player ever has been double and triple teamed... go watch the Lakers vs Pistons Finals in 2004 to see a player constantly quadruple teamed on the perimeter. The entire Pistons defense shifted and moved around to keep guys surrounding Kobe. tayshawn in his face and guys shading to each side....

it is not novel to LeBron.

[bizil]

As of right now, I would have to say no peak value wise. Only reason why is MJ has little more stage presence dominating a game. MJ's scoring arsenal is among the best of all time along with Kobe, Bird, Iceman, Durant, and Melo. And of course MJ is an epic all around player with epic versatility. But Bron is more versatile than MJ and is pass first player that also average 27-30 points every year. In that sense, Bron may get picked in a draft over MJ due to those reasons. Bron can actually fill more holes than MJ can.

With that said, GOAT wise Bron still has a chance to pass MJ by. Lets say Bron gets 4-5 rings, amasses over 35,000 points, 10,000 assists, and 10,000 rebounds. He already has 4 MVPs as we speak. And likely will get another gold medal. His resume might trump MJ's. And Lebron can make the claim he's the most versatile player ever.

[Calabis]

I was fortunate enough to enjoy MJ throughout his career. When I saw Lebron enter the league, I remember thinking, "holy shit, I'm actually going to see a better player than Jordan." For some odd reason it has never manifested. I said in a different post, Lebron is the closest I have seen to MJ in terms of in-game impact. Its not some huge gap that separates the two. You have two players with completely different mindsets and approaches to a basketball game.

[Droid101]

I was fortunate enough to enjoy MJ throughout his career. When I saw Lebron enter the league, I remember thinking, "holy shit, I'm actually going to see a better player than Jordan." For some odd reason it has never manifested..
This. I even bought a LeBron jersey before he even played a Cavs game.

I regret that decision.

[TheMan]

This is just so...

No. The defense is enormously different. Those other 4 players in the pictures everyone seems to love to dismiss COULD NOT SHADE TO MJ. IT WAS A Tech. The pics point out the failures of the old defensive rules. AND WHY IS WAS SO MUCH EASIER TO SCORE IN ISO.



This is just so...

No. The defense is enormously different. THE DEFENSE COULD NOT SHADE TO MJ. Doing so was a TECHNICAL FOUL.




No. Its not. And yet...
You act as though players back then never faced double or triple teams, there are tons of video footage of MJ having multiple defenders going at him. Are you saying MJ just had one defender to beat most of the time:confusedshrug:

This video will show how "easy" Jordan had it back in the day :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Solefade]

people in this thread really ignoring "illegal defense" in the 90's and 80's?

[j3lademaster]

Give me Lebron if I need him to drag a crew of scrubs to a playoff appearance, give me Michael if I'm trying to bring a good team over the top. Those who have watched MJ played point will attest to his underrated passing ability as well.


Bingo. LeBron is more physically gifted than Jordan. It's not even close. LeBron is a wrecking ball beast of a human being that Jordan could only dream of being.That's not true.

1) Both were insanely durable and seemingly never tired, but MJ was like that until 35... until Lebron can do that the edge for durability and stamina goes to MJ slightly(not saying LBJ can't but we have to go with what we've seen and know for sure over speculation).

2) Very similar covering ground baseline to baseline.

3) Vert is MJ. Just look at the tapes.

4) Agility. MJ had the smaller frame and turned corners quicker.

5) Strength. I'd argue MJ is stronger pound for pound, but the overall edge goes to Lebron. They probably lift around the same(giving LBJ a huge benefit of the doubt saying this), but Lebron might be stronger on the court due to being able to create more force with his mass. But go back and watch prime MJ battling Anthony Mason in the post, wrestling with Barkley for rebounds, etc. MJ was strong in his own right.

In a nutshell... not even close? Come on.

[sdot_thadon]

You act as though players back then never faced double or triple teams, there are tons of video footage of MJ having multiple defenders going at him. Are you saying MJ just had one defender to beat most of the time:confusedshrug:

This video will show how "easy" Jordan had it back in the day :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE&feature=youtube_gdata_player
So, Mj faced double and triple teams where the defenders had to commit. They couldn't shade or zone against him legally. As a defender you didn't have the options granted in the modern league. Since zone was illegal in Mj's day that also means he never faced a box and 1 defense either right? It's not that many teams play flat out zone, it's the hybrid zone schemes they run that can allow entire teams to guard dominant players all over the floor. Again Mj was awesome but he just didn't face the same level of defensive schemes we have now.

[TheMan]

people in this thread really ignoring "illegal defense" in the 90's and 80's?
Watch the video and get back to me :rolleyes:

[HurricaneKid]

So now players can move to double slower, that's about the only real in game difference. They used to have to double hard, now they can sit in spaces... that effects big men more than it does perimeter players... that change was instituted to slow down Shaq more than anyone else.

every great player ever has been double and triple teamed... go watch the Lakers vs Pistons Finals in 2004 to see a player constantly quadruple teamed on the perimeter. The entire Pistons defense shifted and moved around to keep guys surrounding Kobe. tayshawn in his face and guys shading to each side....

it is not novel to LeBron.

You are being either stupid or willfully obtuse. Either way I can't continue the conversation.

If you think it's the same thing for the other 4 defenders to not be allowed to shade to a player as it is to go against defenses that are set up with a primary objective of stopping you, well you should probably give up watching the game. You might as well be watching Cricket.

And yes, Kobe has seen plenty of similar defenses. MJ hadn't. That's all I was saying.

[Angel Face]

There's a reason why MJ is the consensus GOAT. Watching MJ dominate every night especially during playoffs gives chills to the fans and fear among his opponents. That's how good he is. He's so fundamentally sound, so fast and athletic. It's like watching a surgeon perform when you see him play. Killer instinct, ice cold in clutch and moves gracefully. An assassin on the court, a ballet of violence. He can destroy and dominate anyone if he likes to. He's one of the smartest players to play the game. He usually outsmarts his opponents. Not only he dominates his opponents on the offensive end but he's a more dangerous defensive player, a terror in the passing lanes and can shut down anyone. MJ will not only destroy you but will also humiliate you. MJ destroys his opponents physically an mentally.

Lebron is good no doubt. I don't like him but this time I'm not gonna be biased. Lebron will be good at any era you put him. He's an athletic freak and has one of the best bball IQ's out there. For his position, he's an excellent play maker and could bully his way into the basket due to his size and strength. He's a good scorer and a great player overall. What's lacking in him his killer instinct, he can dominate anyone but not destroy. His mental game has developed since his disappointment against Mavs, but still not that great and it's not close the MJ mental game.

Some people here say that Lebron's a better rebounder than MJ. I doubt it. It's because his position allows him to play nearer to the basket. MJ is a better rebounder than Lebron imo, for a guard he averaged 6.2 rpg in his career including his Wizards days while Lebron averaged 7.2. The only advantage of Lebron is his passing, size and strength. He plays like a point guard for his size and has a great court vision. Athleticism, MJ takes this. Prime MJ was so fast and has the quickest 1st step that has ever played the game. His vertical leap during his prime is insane. The reason he blocks well for a guard. And scoring, MJ is the most dominant scorer ever. Lebron can be a good scorer but he prefers to get his team mates involved 1st. Lebron is more of a team player while MJ is a one man wrecking machine.

All in all MJ>Lebron. Also, MJ plays in a tougher era.

[TheMan]

So, Mj faced double and triple teams where the defenders had to commit. They couldn't shade or zone against him legally. As a defender you didn't have the options granted in the modern league. Since zone was illegal in Mj's day that also means he never faced a box and 1 defense either right? It's not that many teams play flat out zone, it's the hybrid zone schemes they run that can allow entire teams to guard dominant players all over the floor. Again Mj was awesome but he just didn't face the same level of defensive schemes we have now.
You know how you beat these modern defenses? Having great handles, having a high bball iq, being a great passer and having a reliable jumper. MJ aces all those attributes. Exactly how would MJ not be as successful with rule changes being made to help the perimeter game in today's game :confusedshrug:

[lakerspng]

the literal definition of zone rules vs. man to man illegal defense is pretty drastic. the real-time, in-game translation of it is not that different. They really aren't. Guys get away with more playing off the ball yeah, but it's not like we're talking about a 30 yard wide field here, the court is not that large, a double team was really only a step or two away at all times.

philosophically very different, but the way it's played and implemented is not so.

[Solefade]

1981-82
• Zone defense rules clarified with new rules for Illegal Defensive Alignments.
a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.
b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).
c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.
d. Offensive player above foul line and inside circle must be played by defender inside dotted line.
e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line.
f. Defender on cutter must follow the cutter, switch, or double-team the ball.
• After the first illegal defense violation, the clock is reset to 24 seconds. All subsequent violations result in one free throw and possession of the ball. If any violation occurs during the last 24 seconds of each quarter or overtime period, the offended team receives one free throw.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

[aj1987]

Do you guys realize how good a defender LeBron would be with hand checking? Extremely quick and strong as ****. Can guard 1-4's. MJ is obviously a better scorer and defender, but LeBron is a better passer and rebounder. MJ's scoring and defense get put him over LeBron though. As good as LeBron is, he tends to be passive bitch a lot of times. If he had the score first mentality, dude would be on the way to being the GOAT.

[lakerspng]

a player with great handles and a great first step blows past a zone or man to man defense with equal ease. I've seen Kobe do it. I've seen LeBron do it and Jordan had a quicker first step than either. He'd wreck the current zones the same way he did earlier defenses.

[TheMan]

Lol @ the posters here trying hard to argue that new defensive schemes are the reason LBJ hasn't dominated as much as MJ did :oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

You know how you beat these modern defenses? Having great handles, having a high bball iq, being a great passer and having a reliable jumper. MJ aces all those attributes.Exactly how would MJ not be as successful with rule changes being made to help the perimeter game in today's game :confusedshrug:
So does Kobe to be honest, but that's never stopped it from being a tough defense for him to face either. No fairy tales.:no:

[Solefade]

a player with great handles and a great first step blows past a zone or man to man defense with equal ease. I've seen Kobe do it. I've seen LeBron do it and Jordan had a quicker first step than either. He'd wreck the current zones the same way he did earlier defenses.

2008 celtics? that rarely happened

[Solefade]

Lol @ the posters here trying hard to argue that new defensive schemes are the reason LBJ hasn't dominated as much as MJ did :oldlol:


doesn't seem like anyone in here that's serious is disputing MJ > LBJ, but the ones that are saying MJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LBJ x100000 is ridiculous

[TheMan]

So does Kobe to be honest, but that's never stopped it from being a tough defense for him to face either. No fairy tales.:no:
Who's arguing Kobe isn't a GOAT baller :confusedshrug:

[sdot_thadon]

Who's arguing Kobe isn't a GOAT baller :confusedshrug:
Don't play dumb, the point is those type of defenses were concocted for these types of players. So saying Mj would easily thrash these schemes is kinda funny when Kobe is basically the type of player you described in your post......

[aj1987]

Whenever MJ got doubled, he was a passing threat. LeBron's a better passer, but MJ was good too. If the defenses were getting too suffocating at the perimeter, he would drive relentlessly. If they packed the paint, he would either drive and dish or launch midrange jumpers. That's what made him great. I've seen LeBron not drive when he had chances. I've seen him pass up jumpers. MJ never did that shit. That's what saperates these two. LeBron still has a chance to catch up to MJ, but it's as small as a Kobetard's brain.

[lakerspng]

2008 celtics? that rarely happened

that 2008 Celtics team was not an average defensive team. They were extraordinary, with maybe their best defender (Tony Allen) in his prime with only one thing to do all day, stay in Kobe's shirt, with as much support as he needed from every other direction, including Garnet around the basket.

[pauk]

Ive seen almost all 90s championship runs live and i dunno about Lebron being better but i think he is definitely up there... kindof different players overall though.

[lakerspng]

Don't play dumb, the point is those type of defenses were concocted for these types of players. So saying Mj would easily thrash these schemes is kinda funny when Kobe is basically the type of player you described in your post......

other than a few instances, Kobe has trashed those schemes. his 35 ppt season was against those schemes in almost every game with literally no other reliable offensive support to take pressure away from him defensively. Only a few teams have really made Kobe's life tough in the last 10 years, and even then, there are plenty of instances where he smoked those teams.

[Calabis]

There's a reason why MJ is the consensus GOAT. Watching MJ dominate every night especially during playoffs gives chills to the fans and fear among his opponents. That's how good he is. He's so fundamentally sound, so fast and athletic. It's like watching a surgeon perform when you see him play. Killer instinct, ice cold in clutch and moves gracefully. An assassin on the court, a ballet of violence. He can destroy and dominate anyone if he likes to. He's one of the smartest players to play the game. He usually outsmarts his opponents. Not only he dominates his opponents on the offensive end but he's a more dangerous defensive player, a terror in the passing lanes and can shut down anyone. MJ will not only destroy you but will also humiliate you. MJ destroys his opponents physically an mentally.

Lebron is good no doubt. I don't like him but this time I'm not gonna be biased. Lebron will be good at any era you put him. He's an athletic freak and has one of the best bball IQ's out there. For his position, he's an excellent play maker and could bully his way into the basket due to his size and strength. He's a good scorer and a great player overall. What's lacking in him his killer instinct, he can dominate anyone but not destroy. His mental game has developed since his disappointment against Mavs, but still not that great and it's not close the MJ mental game.

Some people here say that Lebron's a better rebounder than MJ. I doubt it. It's because his position allows him to play nearer to the basket. MJ is a better rebounder than Lebron imo, for a guard he averaged 6.2 rpg in his career including his Wizards days while Lebron averaged 7.2. The only advantage of Lebron is his passing, size and strength. He plays like a point guard for his size and has a great court vision. Athleticism, MJ takes this. Prime MJ was so fast and has the quickest 1st step that has ever played the game. His vertical leap during his prime is insane. The reason he blocks well for a guard. And scoring, MJ is the most dominant scorer ever. Lebron can be a good scorer but he prefers to get his team mates involved 1st. Lebron is more of a team player while MJ is a one man wrecking machine.

All in all MJ>Lebron. Also, MJ plays in a tougher era.

:applause:

Only thing I disagree with is strength. I think Jordan was just as strong, as confirmed by these two guys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09sCTRPLiBM

[TheMan]

Don't play dumb, the point is those type of defenses were concocted for these types of players. So saying Mj would easily thrash these schemes is kinda funny when Kobe is basically the type of player you described in your post......
Thing is, MJ is better in everything Kobe does except for 3 pt shooting (barely) and FTs :confusedshrug:

Add to that the fact MJ had a much better shot selection...

[aj1987]

:applause:

Only thing I disagree with is strength. I think Jordan was just as strong, as confirmed by these two guys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09sCTRPLiBM
I've always felt that LeBron was/is stronger. LeBron backs up defenders like he's playing against 15 year olds. MJ was strong as **** as well, but strength definitely goes to LeBron.

[Calabis]

I've always felt that LeBron was/is stronger. LeBron backs up defenders like he's playing against 15 year olds. MJ was strong as **** as well, but strength definitely goes to LeBron.

In terms of Lebron running down hill, I agree just due to weight, but in terms of getting to the rim, post, I don't see much of a difference. I think people get enamored with Lebron's height and weight and assume those things. Hell two guys that played against both, say Jordan was just as strong.

[sdot_thadon]

other than a few instances, Kobe has trashed those schemes. his 35 ppt season was against those schemes in almost every game with literally no other reliable offensive support to take pressure away from him defensively. Only a few teams have really made Kobe's life tough in the last 10 years, and even then, there are plenty of instances where he smoked those teams.
What do you mean? Didn't Kobe lose a finals against one? He also looked terrible against the same Dallas scheme that chumped lebron in the finals. Not to mention he only plays twice a year against the teams most well know for the scheme....


Thing is, MJ is better in everything Kobe does except for 3 pt shooting (barely) and FTs*

Add to that the fact MJ had a much better shot selection

and lebron has most of those same qualities over Kobe as well. Mj wouldn't just magically beat these schemes, he'd be forced to play the game differently just like every other star. It what it's designed to do. Just so it's not taken wrongly I'm not saying he'd fail at every attempt, just saying it won't be as easy as it's made out to be.

[D.J.]

There's nothing to justify LeBron being better than Jordan. Jordan was more dominant, a better leader, a better mental game, and a better competitor.

[Rocketswin2013]

:applause:

Only thing I disagree with is strength. I think Jordan was just as strong, as confirmed by these two guys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09sCTRPLiBM
LOL! Jordan was strong for his weight. LeBron is strong period.

[lakerspng]

Thing is, MJ is better in everything Kobe does except for 3 pt shooting (barely) and FTs :confusedshrug:

Add to that the fact MJ had a much better shot selection...

I'd say Kobe's ball handling was better as well (prior to his finger getting so damn mangled the last few years) and although his shot selection was not as good as Jordan's and he's a bit pig-headed when it came to taking the shot himself... he's also a more creative playmaker, not better necessarily but more creative (watch his two man game with Shaq, his dribble penetration and wrap around/drop offs and kick outs). I think part of what gives Jordan a slight edge over Kobe is his efficiency of movement and that bleeds into every part of his game, from shot selection to decision making. Kobe would try two or three moves to get past a defender, MJ would pick one and attack it.

[TheMan]

LOL! Jordan was strong for his weight. LeBron is strong period.
That's cool, MJ didn't need to bulldoze ppl to get to the rim...

[Rocketswin2013]

That's cool, MJ didn't need to bulldoze ppl to get to the rim...
MJ is the GOAT but I just find it funny how nobody likes to give this guy LeBron credit for anything. At least in comparison to MJ.

[BigBoss]

I Am 38 years old.

Prime mj is far better than bron.

Way better.

Mj in his prime in current nba would averAge 40+ easy.

I believed you until the last sentence.

[Kvnzhangyay]

MJ is the GOAT but I just find it funny how nobody likes to give this guy LeBron credit for anything. At least in comparison to MJ.

This. MJ is better, but in no way is it as far fetched as some people believe it to be. Honestly MJ is better than Lebron by the same ammount as Lebron is better than Bird, which isnt a lot at all

[bukowski81]

Lebron is really great and a unique player, one of those rare talents that come once in a while, but Jordan was better, he deserved all the hype and praise he got on his time.

[Just2McFly]

I believe in sports, there is a certain point where you cannot discern the differnce between two all time, great players. I just don't know how one can say with absolute certainty that MJ was greater than Lebron or that MJ had the most dominant peak of any player ever.

I think people tend to overrate the man a bit. We act like Kareem and Shaq didn't have a monsterous peaks. We are acting like Lebron hasn't been a perennial winning machine while putting up ridiculous numbers even though he didnt have the best talent in Cleveland.

Lebron is getting to the point where he elicits an emotional response from sports fans so discussion is just a hodgepodge of bs.

[OG LeeTSkeeT]

MJ could stop Lebron, can't say the opposite

[bizil]

In terms of passing, MJ was a great scorer who's also a great passer. And Bron is a great passer who's also a great scorer. It's just a mentality thing. Bron line of thinking is MOST similar really to guys like Magic, Big O, Isiah, Paul, etc. Guys who are pass first, but can score just as good or close as the elite scorers in the world. Bron really is showing us how it would look in a sense if Magic or Bird were freak athletes and great on defense. Those factors are what separated MJ from Bird and Magic back in the day. It wasn't the numbers, IQ, leadership, etc. With Bron u get Karl Malone's body, Pippen's point forward and defensive versatility, Magic's size, passing ability, and triple double potential, and Big O's triple double ability and ability to get u 30 points a night while being a pass first player. I would take MJ peak value wise for sure as of now. But I would take Bron and Kobe next perimeter wise. I will give Bron the nod as the most unique and versatile player of all time. Bron is the Lex Luger of BBALL, the TOTAL PACKAGE!!

[Calabis]

MJ is the GOAT but I just find it funny how nobody likes to give this guy LeBron credit for anything. At least in comparison to MJ.

LOL how is it not giving him credit? Two guys that been on the floor said Jordan was just as strong :wtf: is the issue?

Lebron second best player I have seen in my lifetime=not giving him credit:confusedshrug:

[bizil]

MJ could stop Lebron, can't say the opposite

I gotta disagree with that. If anything they are gonna put in work on each other, but make each other less efficient. U saw how Magic gave MJ trouble back in the day. Guys like Magic, Nique, and Bird were MJ's toughest battles on the perimeter for him to guard. He didn't play their positions, but he would guard them at times. When a bigger superstar perimeter player is as skilled as those three, it can give MJ a very tough assignment. But Lebron, like Bird and Magic before had the size of a PF along with epic passing skills. And like Nique he was a freakish athlete. Bron will push MJ on both ends of the court, something Nique, Bird, or Magic couldn't do.

[JT123]

What would you even talk about on here if it wasn't for me? 98% of your posts are just you bitching. Im in your head so bad you put me on the ignore list than took me off because you couldn't resist reply to everything I typed. You're a ****in puppet, son. A monkey following around his organ grinder. You're trash.
:roll: :roll: :roll: Dat ether doe!

[nathanjizzle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGm8Kr5kWr8

just watch that. in the finals jordan makes a crucial bucket, goes back on defense and steals the ball, then makes a game winning bucket. lebron has never demonstrated anything close to this, actually hes done quite the opposite, ray allen bailing him out, and him disappearing in 11'

[LoveIsMyMessage]

Ok, most of the responses state Jordan>>>> and its not even close. I saw both of them play and while Jordan is the better player, the difference of impact is not as great as this board make it seem. While I agree Jordan is better/debatable in every aspect of basketball; he is not as close of a play-maker or passer everybody seem to agree on. Most NBA stars can average 7 assist per game, but that doesn't mean they can pull off Nash type assists at will, on the spot. LeBron is not the best or likeable but this site makes him seem like an average NBA player with all these deranged critics creating a negative threads/posts every minute.

[97 bulls]

Im 39. Jordan is the most skilled player ever. As well as the best. James is great but hes just not on Jordans level.

[BlkMambaGOAT]

I've only watched (barely remembered) Jordan since '96 (I'm 21), but even I know comparing Jordan to Lebron warrants a :lol :wtf: :facepalm


MJ>>>>>>>>>Collusion's poster boy

[97 bulls]

Ok, most of the responses state Jordan>>>> and its not even close. I saw both of them play and while Jordan is the better player, the difference of impact is not as great as this board make it seem. While I agree Jordan is better/debatable in every aspect of basketball; he is not as close of a play-maker or passer everybody seem to agree on. Most NBA stars can average 7 assist per game, but that doesn't mean they can pull off Nash type assists at will, on the spot. LeBron is not the best or likeable but this site makes him seem like an average NBA player with all these deranged critics creating a negative threads/posts every minute.
I think it's a matter of impact. James and the Heat are extremely fortunate to be playing in the Eastern conference. The teams in the East now are just flat out not very good. Im sure James would dominate but a large portion of what we consider to be dominance has to do with winning. I just dont see James teams being able to play at that level every night. Hes been blessed with being in a terrible conference.

[jlip]

I believe in sports, there is a certain point where you cannot discern the differnce between two all time, great players. I just don't know how one can say with absolute certainty that MJ was greater than Lebron or that MJ had the most dominant peak of any player ever.

I think people tend to overrate the man a bit. We act like Kareem and Shaq didn't have a monsterous peaks. We are acting like Lebron hasn't been a perennial winning machine while putting up ridiculous numbers even though he didnt have the best talent in Cleveland.

Lebron is getting to the point where he elicits an emotional response from sports fans so discussion is just a hodgepodge of bs.

This

[LoveIsMyMessage]

I think it's a matter of impact. James and the Heat are extremely fortunate to be playing in the Eastern conference. The teams in the East now are just flat out not very good. Im sure James would dominate but a large portion of what we consider to be dominance has to do with winning. I just dont see James teams being able to play at that level every night. Hes been blessed with being in a terrible conference.

Proved my point with your guess of James being an average player in the West. There is not a convincing argument I can give to convince you otherwise. In example, I cant convince religious people of how stupid the idiotic statements,ridiculous claims and beliefs are no matter the debate. LeBron is just a big athletic flopper with no Legendary impact whatsoever.:rolleyes:

If Grant Hill and Dominique Wilkins were one of the best on Jordans Era; how can LeBron not be, when he is a superior player when in comparison to yesterdays stars.

[knicksman]

Lebron has more skills but those skills can be replaced by other players while mj has skills that only few could replace. You could say the same for kobe. And thats what separates alphas from betas. Alphas want to win so they go for skills that matters while betas are content with stats. Thats why wilt, robertson are losers and lebron could join them if not for cheating.

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol @ the notion that Lebron is more skilled than Jordan. Wow. :oldlol: That's even more farcical than saying he's better as a player.

[97 bulls]

Proved my point with your guess of James being an average player in the West. There is not a convincing argument I can give to convince you otherwise. In example, I cant convince religious people of how stupid the idiotic statements,ridiculous claims and beliefs are no matter the debate. LeBron is just a big athletic flopper with no Legendary impact whatsoever.:rolleyes:

If Grant Hill and Dominique Wilkins were one of the best on Jordans Era; how can LeBron not be, when he is a superior player when in comparison to yesterdays stars.
I never said James wasn't great. I said what separates Jordan and James is impact on the game. The Conference James plays in is no good. Truth be told its never been any good. But don't get me wrong, James would be no worse than top three in any wra

[bluechox2]

lebron equal to wizards jordan...real talk

[ThePhantomCreep]

I saw them both and I'll go with the guy that does not need Scottie Pippen to have a winning record.

You know you're sunk when you have to resort to these pitiful arguments.

Jordan regular season > LeBron regular season
Jordan postseason >>>> LeBron postseason

[Kvnzhangyay]

lebron equal to wizards jordan...real talk

Wizards jordan was just a relatively inefficient chucker...

[aj1987]

Wizards jordan was just a relatively inefficient chucker...
So you're saying that Wizards MJ = Kobe?

[Wally450]

LeBron could easily average 35 today if he tried and could average 40+ over multiple years in MJs era with ease.
LeBron is so much better in everything but scoring than MJ its ridiculous.
biggest confirm of this is MJs saltiness torwards branban

Lol

[JohnFreeman]

What would you even talk about on here if it wasn't for me? 98% of your posts are just you bitching. Im in your head so bad you put me on the ignore list than took me off because you couldn't resist reply to everything I typed. You're a ****in puppet, son. A monkey following around his organ grinder. You're trash.
:lebronamazed:

[sekachu]

Like my thread title says...this thread is exclusively for those who saw prime or at least some of MJ's prime from early mid 90s and think LeBron is just as good if not better? Even better if you're not a fan of either player for a more unbiased opinion...

Honestly, in my personal experience talking to those who have seen both MJ's and LBJ's career, not many think LBJ is on MJ's level. The young cats love saying nostalgia but naw, that ain't it, I'm an MJ fan but being as nuetral as I can be, I just ain't seeing it. MJ would NEVER EVER have a 2011 Finals performance. MJ has had his share of postseason losses but the opposition were legendary squads like those Bird Celtics and Thomas Pistons (still put up stud stats vs those teams in losing efforts)...I just can't see MJ getting punked by the likes of Terry and Marion.:confusedshrug:

What say you?



Is hard to compare MJ and lebron. The circumstance is a lot different. Lebron joining the heat with 2 superstars at their prime during the water down eastern. He has a lot easier road trip to final than MJ. There are no team in the east could competed with the heat maybe except pacer. Not because they are too good, the opponent is just too weak. This year is another example, another free pass to the final since pacer has been real choked recently.