Seattle Raises Minimum Wage to 15 Dollars

[russwest0]

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/05/01/3433227/seattle-15-dollar-minimum-wage/

Damn, and this works for waiters as well.

Waiters gonna be making around 25 an hour with tips :eek: :eek: :eek:

[riseagainst]

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/05/01/3433227/seattle-15-dollar-minimum-wage/

Damn, and this works for waiters as well.

Waiters gonna be making around 25 an hour with tips :eek: :eek: :eek:

atrocious. Every other job salaries better double as well or college education is just a even more waste of money now.
:facepalm

[oarabbus]

atrocious. Every other job salaries better double as well or college education is just a even more waste of money now.
:facepalm


This. What happens to the people working jobs that pay ~$20 an hour currently? Their skills have become incredibly devalued, nearly worthless. When the lab technician is making just $3 bucks more per hour than a guy at McDonalds and waiters/waitresses are making more than the lab tech... :facepalm

[waseem780]

So weed is legal in Seattle AND minimum wage is 15 dollars? I wish all USA was like that.

[Clyde]

won't the cost of everything go up just to off set this.

Maybe not overnight, but you get what I'm saying?

[Le Shaqtus]

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/05/01/3433227/seattle-15-dollar-minimum-wage/

Damn, and this works for waiters as well.

Waiters gonna be making around 25 an hour with tips :eek: :eek: :eek:

They need to bring this shit to Florida :lol

[ace23]

Are waiters even paid minimum wage? I thought they were paid below.

[oarabbus]

Are waiters even paid minimum wage? I thought they were paid below.

It varies state to state. Federally, the tipped employee minimum wage is $2.13/hr.

If the servers make less than the federal non-tipped employee minimum wage after tips, the owners are required to pay them the difference. (Let me know if this doesn't make sense) but otherwise they are paid $2.13/hr +tips

In California (dunno about WA) the state minimum is $8/hr no matter what. So waiters get paid $8 plus tips.



won't the cost of everything go up just to off set this.

Maybe not overnight, but you get what I'm saying?

Yes, it will, which is why it doesn't make sense to massively raise the minimum wage by such an amount. Small, incremental increases maybe, but jumping to $15? WTF? It will **** up all kinds of shit.

[KyleKong]

Are waiters even paid minimum wage? I thought they were paid below.

Colorado it's $4.50 an hour before we're taxed.

[russwest0]

They need to bring this shit to Florida :lol

Right? I'm thinking damn, I was just thinking about looking for a good job and everything but shit... pay me 15 an hr and I'll gladly keep flipping burgers.

This whole idea was led by the first elected socialist congressmen as well. About to go to Seattle and burn out on life cause dey socialist now :lol

[The Iron Sheik]

atrocious. Every other job salaries better double as well or college education is just a even more waste of money now.
:facepalm

this makes no sense.

people can still go to college and pursue the education and professions they want regardless of what cashiers and waiters make.

[riseagainst]

this makes no sense.

people can still go to college and pursue the education and professions they want regardless of what cashiers and waiters make.

Who would want to spend 40 grand on a piece of paper just to make a couple more dollars per hour than a waiter/waitress, who are now making upwards of 25 dollars an hour? Or maybe even less than that?

:confusedshrug:

[Le Shaqtus]

Are waiters even paid minimum wage? I thought they were paid below.

I get paid 4.50 an hour

[riseagainst]

I get paid 4.50 an hour

dam you are lucky if you are getting 4.50 an hour. Most restaurants pay less than 2.50 an hour.

[KingBeasley08]

Awful. If you wanna raise the minimum wage, it should be slow growth over a period of time. A huge jump like that is gonna lead to major unemployment.

First they lose the Supersonics and now this. Seattle lucky as fck they have the Seahawks

[Le Shaqtus]

dam you are lucky if you are getting 4.50 an hour. Most restaurants pay less than 2.50 an hour.

Before that I bussed and earned $9 an hour, but I hated the job so I quit.

Then it was either working at Wizarding World of Harry Potter or serving at a bar. Ultimately I chose the latter because the tips are good, over 3 shifts I made $267. I live at home so the only thing I have to worry about paying for is my gas and stuff like that.

I don't know if I'd have taken that job if I only got paid 2.50 an hour.

[russwest0]

Awful. If you wanna raise the minimum wage, it should be slow growth over a period of time. A huge jump like that is gonna lead to major unemployment.

First they lose the Supersonics and now this. Seattle lucky as fck they have the Seahawks

They have it set up so that they work up to the 15/hr through 5 years. Though many jobs will make the jump right away.

[oarabbus]

Before that I bussed and earned $9 an hour, but I hated the job so I quit.

Then it was either working at Wizarding World of Harry Potter or serving at a bar. Ultimately I chose the latter because the tips are good, over 3 shifts I made $267. I live at home so the only thing I have to worry about paying for is my gas and stuff like that.

I don't know if I'd have taken that job if I only got paid 2.50 an hour.


Again, in states with a semblance of common sense tipped employees get paid the state minimum + tips. At a lot of places in CA a busser will earn 8 or 9/hr while the waiters make 8 or 9 + tips

[The Iron Sheik]

Who would want to spend 40 grand on a piece of paper just to make a couple more dollars per hour than a waiter/waitress, who are now making upwards of 25 dollars an hour? Or maybe even less than that?

:confusedshrug:

didn't know $15 was considered upwards of $25.

and because people who go to college go because they want to get a degree and work in a certain field? people don't put themselves in tens of thousands of dollars of debt for 5+ years just to try and make money. sure there is an interest in that regard but there is an initial career interest that surpasses that unless you're an athlete.

[oarabbus]

didn't know $15 was considered upwards of $25.

and because people who go to college go because they want to get a degree and work in a certain field? people don't put themselves in tens of thousands of dollars of debt for 5+ years just to try and make money. sure there is an interest in that regard but there is an initial career interest that surpasses that unless you're an athlete.

A lot of fresh grads without experiences can only get entry level jobs in their field, which (depending on field) can range from 15-25$/hr. This min wage increase is totally ****ing that.

[Kblaze8855]

People actually upset that poor people will make closer to college grad money...even if the college grads make no less? You want people to be poor just for the hell of it? To feel better about a degree?

And things arent really gonna change. Be a lot of big talk over nothing. I assure you....a pair of socks at a Seattle walmart will not be 8 dollars.

A burger in a non franchise spot might cost 5 bucks instead of 3. But it wont be the major things.

[oarabbus]

People actually upset that poor people will make closer to college grad money...even if the college grads make no less? You want people to be poor just for the hell of it? To feel better about a degree?

And things arent really gonna change. Be a lot of big talk over nothing. I assure you....a pair of socks at a Seattle walmart will not be 8 dollars.

A burger in a non franchise spot might cost 5 bucks instead of 3. But it wont be the major things.

No man, you are putting words in my mouth. Such a drastic increase in the minimum wage HAS to have consequences. How can raising the minimum wage not **** with the economic structure? When menial jobs are being paid $15, all the people who were previously making $20 an hour, are going to demand an appropriate raise. Either they will get it, in which case you've accomplished nothing but rapid inflation, or they'll cut the number of jobs to compensate for the increased pay across the board.


As for college...this generation's college debt crisis will be the new housing crisis in roughly a decade or so, there already aren't enough jobs as it is and raising the min wage to $15 is going to result in fewer jobs. You can't deny the cluster**** that is about to occur due to the tens of thousands of unemployed students holding onto $100k+ in debt, increasing year by year from interest, and unable to be cleared via bankruptcy. Something HAS to give.

[Kblaze8855]

Key part there:


When menial jobs are being paid $15, all the people who were previously making $20 an hour, are going to demand an appropriate raise.

What exactly makes it an "appropriate raise"? What about the poor being less poor makes your job worth more than you agreed to accept for it?

[Godzuki]

its not that ridiculous when you read over 10~ years

[oarabbus]

Key part there:



What exactly makes it an "appropriate raise"? What about the poor being less poor makes your job worth more than you agreed to accept for it?


It's not about the poor being less poor. If prices go up with the minimum wage hike, then those people effectively have less money than before.

I would like for the poor to be less poor, in fact for them to be paid a completely living wage, but not at the expense of the lower middle class. If this wage hike helps the poor while not raising prices for the lower-middle class, I'm completely for it.

[Kakapopo]

won't the cost of everything go up just to off set this.

Maybe not overnight, but you get what I'm saying?
Yes but if you buy everything from amazon.com it really shouldn't matter :confusedshrug:

[russwest0]

Yes but if you buy everything from amazon.com it really shouldn't matter :confusedshrug:

Damn, I didn't even think of that. I need to move to Seattle.

[ace23]

I hate how people try to oversimplify this whole raising the minimum wage debate. It's a very complex issue.

[9512]

Damn, I didn't even think of that. I need to move to Seattle.

Bring that team back too while you're at it! :lol

[KingBeasley08]

its not that ridiculous when you read over 10~ years
This


Initially I thought it was at once. That would have just become dumb as hell. At first look, everyone would be like "more money for poor people :applause: " when in reality half those people would be laid off.

Over a period of time is how to do it

[Cowboy Thunder]

Everyone is going to have to raise the minimum wage to give welfare junkies an incentive to get off the teet.

Get TANF for 6 years cause you couldn't keep your legs spread, claim A.D.D. and get on disability for the rest of your life.

Now at least slugs will have a reason to work, $15 an hour to mop a floor!

[ace23]

Key part there:



What exactly makes it an "appropriate raise"? What about the poor being less poor makes your job worth more than you agreed to accept for it?
The fact that they didn't have to invest the time and money he did to get the job that he has. When people who are not as rich as you are become richer, you become poorer.

[ace23]

:oldlol:
Do you disagree with that? You don't think you become poorer in comparison when people who make less than you begin to make more money?

[Patrick Chewing]

And things arent really gonna change. Be a lot of big talk over nothing. I assure you....a pair of socks at a Seattle walmart will not be 8 dollars.

A burger in a non franchise spot might cost 5 bucks instead of 3. But it wont be the major things.


So why raise the wage if we all know that prices for food and goods will increase??? Makes no f'n sense.

[Jailblazers7]

No man, you are putting words in my mouth. Such a drastic increase in the minimum wage HAS to have consequences. How can raising the minimum wage not **** with the economic structure? When menial jobs are being paid $15, all the people who were previously making $20 an hour, are going to demand an appropriate raise. Either they will get it, in which case you've accomplished nothing but rapid inflation, or they'll cut the number of jobs to compensate for the increased pay across the board.


As for college...this generation's college debt crisis will be the new housing crisis in roughly a decade or so, there already aren't enough jobs as it is and raising the min wage to $15 is going to result in fewer jobs. You can't deny the cluster**** that is about to occur due to the tens of thousands of unemployed students holding onto $100k+ in debt, increasing year by year from interest, and unable to be cleared via bankruptcy. Something HAS to give.

It would not create "rapid inflation" if people got a wage increase. It's not changing the amount of money in the system...just who is holding it. Inflation is at historic lows right now because of various factors and one of them is because of a lack of investment spending. Labor earning more and spending it would be far from a bad thing.

And entry level college jobs have the room for advancement and raises within 1-2 years of employment. Minimum wage jobs are a ceiling with almost no opportunity for wage increases or advancement. For the most part, the min wage labor market is kind of isolated. I don't think it would have the type of impact you are imagining.

It might not fit into the privileged idea of justice for some college grads but that is just tough shit for the most part.

[KingBeasley08]

:oldlol:
He's right :confusedshrug:

[Kblaze8855]

So why raise the wage if we all know that prices for food and goods will increase??? Makes no f'n sense.

Nearly double the pay of the lowest paid...bumps many more from 11 or 12 to 15.

You think there is a chance in hell goods go up by the same rate?

You think milk will be 9 dollars?

A 22 thousand dollar car will be 39?

Your Sprint bill gonna rise just in seattle but be honored at the agreed rate elsewhere?

All state raises your home insurance when 90% of customer interaction is with a phone center in Kansas?

Cable bill going up?

Will shingles go from 24 dollars a pack to 39 when I need to patch my roof?

Will best buy charge 83 dollars for a 60 dollar video game in seattle?


No.

its a lot of talk over nothing.

Too many things are nationally priced or just not the type of thing you can get away with raising at nearly the rate the wage rises.

People out here mad because some guy who still wont have enough money for savings or a reasonably new car is gonna be able to afford to get his kid a birthday present so they are comparatively less wealthy than when he couldn't....

People are so selfish its hard to grasp. Selfishness has reached the point...we dont want poor people to make more money even when we dont have to pay it....because them being less poor makes us feel less superior than we were...and less rich...

Even if 90% of the shit we buy costs the exact same.

[Brizzly]

Nearly double the pay of the lowest paid...bumps many more from 11 or 12 to 15.

You think there is a chance in hell goods go up by the same rate?

You think milk will be 9 dollars?

A 22 thousand dollar car will be 39?

Your Sprint bill gonna rise just in seattle but be honored at the agreed rate elsewhere?

All state raises your home insurance when 90% of customer interaction is with a phone center in Kansas?

Cable bill going up?

Will shingles go from 24 dollars a pack to 39 when I need to patch my roof?

Will best buy charge 83 dollars for a 60 dollar video game in seattle?


No.

its a lot of talk over nothing.

Too many things are nationally priced or just not the type of thing you can get away with raising at nearly the rate the wage rises.

People out here mad because some guy who still wont have enough money for savings or a reasonably new car is gonna be able to afford to get his kid a birthday present so they are comparatively less wealthy than when he couldn't....

People are so selfish its hard to grasp. Selfishness has reached the point...we dont want poor people to make more money even when we dont have to pay it....because them being less poor makes us feel less superior than we were...and less rich...

Even if 90% of the shit we buy costs the exact same.

I don't know if you have owned a business or done anything economic related to think that something like doubling minimum wage won't effect prices.

Do you think that prices that are set on say.... the coffee in your local cafe is just randomly made up?

A good business, a business that doesn't want to go bankrupt within the first year sets their prices after what their costs are.

The cost of of producing one unit of something times your desired profit margin is a good rule of thumb.

All you are showing with your examples are big companies, like wal mart etc. Everyone knows those won't really be effected. But what happens to small business that no one will visit because of them not being able to compete any longer?

[CelticBaller]

Colorado it's $4.50 an hour before we're taxed.
holy shit, and i though getting paid $10 an hour was shit, but the cost of living its kind of high here

[Patrick Chewing]

Nearly double the pay of the lowest paid...bumps many more from 11 or 12 to 15.

You think there is a chance in hell goods go up by the same rate?

You think milk will be 9 dollars?

A 22 thousand dollar car will be 39?

Your Sprint bill gonna rise just in seattle but be honored at the agreed rate elsewhere?

All state raises your home insurance when 90% of customer interaction is with a phone center in Kansas?

Cable bill going up?

Will shingles go from 24 dollars a pack to 39 when I need to patch my roof?

Will best buy charge 83 dollars for a 60 dollar video game in seattle?


No.

its a lot of talk over nothing.

Too many things are nationally priced or just not the type of thing you can get away with raising at nearly the rate the wage rises.

People out here mad because some guy who still wont have enough money for savings or a reasonably new car is gonna be able to afford to get his kid a birthday present so they are comparatively less wealthy than when he couldn't....

People are so selfish its hard to grasp. Selfishness has reached the point...we dont want poor people to make more money even when we dont have to pay it....because them being less poor makes us feel less superior than we were...and less rich...

Even if 90% of the shit we buy costs the exact same.


I don't think you understand the law of supply and demand. If I'm a business owner, more of my products will be sold now due to the affordability of it. In order to keep the supply, I need to raise the cost in order to bring more in, that way I can still turn a profit. Very simple.

[Brizzly]

holy shit, and i though getting paid $10 an hour was shit, but the cost of living its kind of high here

That h/w is w/o tips.

[Kblaze8855]

As I said a small diner might charge more for a burger. But the majority of the things we need have nothing to do with such things.

Actually look into where people shop...where people get the things they want...this doesnt much matter.

Im sure the price of yarn will rise in a craft store that has 2 employees to pay.

And tens of thousands will make closer to decent money, no longer qualify for a lot of government assistance that can be better used elsewhere, and the world will keep spinning with the greater good having been done.

Im not sure there is a single item in the room im in that isnt priced nationally or produced by people who already make above minimum wage. Maybe a bottle of hot sauce.

I suppose if the dollar store had to pay cashiers more my franks red hot would be more than 2 dollars. Maybe...3? And thats unlikely. The price of such things only fluctuate so much.

I can imagine my local meat markets prices would go up. But at a point...people wouldnt buy it anymore. And the market would level it out as always. A chicken just isnt gonna be 16 dollars.

Whatever it is....I can comfortably absorb the difference. And thanks to no longer being paid next to nothing the poor could do the same.

As I said its a lot of talk over nothing. We will check back on Seattle as this happens and nothing noteworthy is gonna happen except happier poor people and a few out of business signs from the kinds of places that are barely afloat now. And someone will post a story on one ignoring that 70 of them a year were going out of business in seattle under the old system.

Its all gonna be fine....

[Kblaze8855]

I don't think you understand the law of supply and demand. If I'm a business owner, more of my products will be sold now due to the affordability of it. In order to keep the supply, I need to raise the cost in order to bring more in, that way I can still turn a profit. Very simple.


And when my house note is set, my cable company is international, my phone is as well, my insurance has agents in the area who ive literally never seen because I pay online , my tv was ordered off amazon, my cell phone bought off craigslist, my computer is from best buy with like my netflix and hulu has national pricing, and nobody pays for music anymore.....

Gonna have to file this one under "So what".

Im not talking how much I pay for a custom spiced pickle should I have a hankering for one from a store nobody ever goes to.

My day to day...the things I need...

This isnt 1880. I dont go to the general store to see my buddy Bill and put in an order for some rain boots I come back for in spring.

Most of what I need is priced a thousand miles away and most of what isnt...is work done by people who dont make minimum wage to begin with. My electrician is 55 dollars an hour....

This is just not nearly as big an issue as you suggest.

[KingBeasley08]

It's not just the cost but the employment level also decreases. When you increase the pay for your workers, the two best options are to raise prices and cut workers. Raising the minimum wage is a controversial issue for a reason. Not as simple as people think

[ace23]

Quit acting like money is a finite commodity. They print more every f*cking day.

Someone getting something doesn't take away from what you have.
It does when you factor in the impending inflation.

I'm not for or against it, but what K-Blaze was saying was ridiculous. Lol.

And money, adjusted for inflation, is a finite commodity. Currency isn't just created out of thin air.

[ZenMaster]

I don't know if you have owned a business or done anything economic related to think that something like doubling minimum wage won't effect prices.

Do you think that prices that are set on say.... the coffee in your local cafe is just randomly made up?

A good business, a business that doesn't want to go bankrupt within the first year sets their prices after what their costs are.

The cost of of producing one unit of something times your desired profit margin is a good rule of thumb.

All you are showing with your examples are big companies, like wal mart etc. Everyone knows those won't really be effected. But what happens to small business that no one will visit because of them not being able to compete any longer?

Small cafees with reasonable prices will expect a bump in the amount of customers, the people working at wall mart will now have money to go there every once in a while.

[StusOneGoodEye]

That's lavish single living rent + necessities at the very least. In Cali that's definitely getting back on your feet if you have a family and a working partner.

[oarabbus]

Kblaze and prof murder, if it really isn't a big deal why stop at $15? Why not raise the minimum wage to $25? How about $50 and everyone can have a BMW? :confusedshrug:

[Brizzly]

Small cafees with reasonable prices will expect a bump in the amount of customers, the people working at wall mart will now have money to go there every once in a while.

Not necessarily. We still don't know how much the prices of nationwide companies will be effected in Seattle. Probably no effect therefore more people will seek out to them making it harder for a lot of small businesses,

[StusOneGoodEye]

A kid in Washington working at the Footlocker is making more than I am. A kid, finding his way in this world, parents grooming him and teaching him about responsibility is making more than I am.:mad:

[D.J.]

The only issue I have is what about those who currently make in the $15-20/hour range? You're going to have those who work at McDonalds making the same or almost the same as a college graduate. If I went to college for 4 years and spent $20-30K, I'd be pretty pissed if someone at McDonalds was making the same as me. What was the point of going to college?

So now, you're going to have 16-17 year olds thinking "Why spend all that money on college when I get a job for $15/hour right off the bat? It sets a bad precedent because education, instead of being thought of as a stepping stone for something better down the line, will be thought off as a waste of time.

[GimmeThat]

Are we talking about just a city?
Because the effect of that is pretty much minimal.

States having different minimum wage was something that existed already.
If you told me the Silicon Valley had raised the minimum wage to 15 bucks.
I highly doubt the tech people are going to be upset because they probably make way more than that a long time ago. All it says is the kids down the street who have to pay the same house/rent rate as I do gets to live a bit better now.



The effect of this is probably even more minimal to the economy as say Walmart decides to raise its lowest pay rate to 12 bucks.

Note I said the economy here, because this action wouldn't directly force other companies having to raise their wages.

[GimmeThat]

The only issue I have is what about those who currently make in the $15-20/hour range? You're going to have those who work at McDonalds making the same or almost the same as a college graduate. If I went to college for 4 years and spent $20-30K, I'd be pretty pissed if someone at McDonalds was making the same as me. What was the point of going to college?

So now, you're going to have 16-17 year olds thinking "Why spend all that money on college when I get a job for $15/hour right off the bat? It sets a bad precedent because education, instead of being thought of as a stepping stone for something better down the line, will be thought off as a waste of time.

Like I said about the national minimum wage. If the Seattle Mayor doesn't know what the hell he/she is doing. They will most likely face some serious issue in terms of attracting talents and keeping them. Because you are attracting the wrong talents in this case.

But yes, you CAN raise the minimum wage and boost the local economy. depends on the industry you have, real estate, etc. Also, clearly utilizing local laws and tax system. Still, unless the city was ready for it, and without knowing what the minimum wage was before then. quite the gutsy move.

your drawing point shouldn't be "at the very worst, we promise you 15 bucks an hour. but, the worst people here, MAKES 15 bucks an hour" see the difference?

[kNIOKAS]

I would say the whole assumption is that people are underpaid in general, and labour market is skewed so that current minimum wage is not a normal balance of supply/demand.

The unemployement is a general issue anyway, and it's because jobs leaving your country and the technologies that replace human labour.


The only issue I have is what about those who currently make in the $15-20/hour range? You're going to have those who work at McDonalds making the same or almost the same as a college graduate. If I went to college for 4 years and spent $20-30K, I'd be pretty pissed if someone at McDonalds was making the same as me. What was the point of going to college?

So now, you're going to have 16-17 year olds thinking "Why spend all that money on college when I get a job for $15/hour right off the bat? It sets a bad precedent because education, instead of being thought of as a stepping stone for something better down the line, will be thought off as a waste of time.
That would correct itself by the laws of the market, I guess... Or, it is a waste of time to go to college anyway. The good paying jobs has left America, right?



All you are showing with your examples are big companies, like wal mart etc. Everyone knows those won't really be effected. But what happens to small business that no one will visit because of them not being able to compete any longer?
Why would you think they wouldn't be effected? I would say it will effect them the most, since their whole model is based on underpaying their employees, of whom they hire a lot.

Also, if small business are not able to compete, why to artificially keep them in the market?

[Spokelahoma]

as someone who lives on the east side of Washington state, can the Seattle area please stop doing shit like this??

[GimmeThat]

I would say the whole assumption is that people are underpaid in general, and labour market is skewed so that current minimum wage is not a normal balance of supply/demand.

People are underpaid if there was a cap on maximum hourly wage. Which, looking at the CEO's I don't think that exist. When you raise the minimum wage, it affects people whose pay WAS below that, then it hits those whose pay were slightly above it. Because most likely due to the cost the local economy is inheriting by the raise on those with less productivity already, now they don't necessarily have the fund to adjust those who had better pay. Therefore it then encourages talented workers with high productivity to outflow to other places where perhaps the living cost is lower, taxes is lower etc, or pays better.

Again, the current minimum wage is not a normal balance of supply/demand is probably given under the assumption that most people are paid minimum wage, and that most jobs are minimum wage and it is extremely difficult to find jobs that pays better than minimum wage. i.e. minimum wage jobs takes up 30-40% of your local economy.


The unemployement is a general issue anyway, and it's because jobs leaving your country and the technologies that replace human labour.

It is why the service industry had been created. Which by the time robots take over service industry, maybe it will be human labor producing robots. Since Robots producing Robots sounds like such a safe idea and all



That would correct itself by the laws of the market, I guess... Or, it is a waste of time to go to college anyway. The good paying jobs has left America, right?

The good paying jobs hasn't left America. It has yet to been created by America. So no, just because other countries are producing better paying jobs doesn't mean it's because Americans have purposely created jobs in other countries. Which, that's another issue we can get into. Supply and Demand, Supply and Demand.




Also, if small business are not able to compete, why to artificially keep them in the market?

Because someone who takes home 15K a year, is better than no one taking home money at all. Unless you want to make a solid argument that someone taking 15k home a year is affecting others to take home 30K a year.



I will throw this in there, whether or not a country can afford to raise the minimum wage, besides the state of the economy, one ought to consider the balance of the government's fiscal budget as well as long term forecast. Which inherently deals with the tax system.

[Spokelahoma]

And when my house note is set, my cable company is international, my phone is as well, my insurance has agents in the area who ive literally never seen because I pay online , my tv was ordered off amazon, my cell phone bought off craigslist, my computer is from best buy with like my netflix and hulu has national pricing, and nobody pays for music anymore.....

Gonna have to file this one under "So what".

Im not talking how much I pay for a custom spiced pickle should I have a hankering for one from a store nobody ever goes to.

My day to day...the things I need...

This isnt 1880. I dont go to the general store to see my buddy Bill and put in an order for some rain boots I come back for in spring.

Most of what I need is priced a thousand miles away and most of what isnt...is work done by people who dont make minimum wage to begin with. My electrician is 55 dollars an hour....

This is just not nearly as big an issue as you suggest.

so you have no idea how big of roll small businesses play in our country/economy. got it

[deja vu]

Giving businesses even more reason to outsource to the Third World. :lol

[kNIOKAS]

People are underpaid if there was a cap on maximum hourly wage. Which, looking at the CEO's I don't think that exist. When you raise the minimum wage, it affects people whose pay WAS below that, then it hits those whose pay were slightly above it. Because most likely due to the cost the local economy is inheriting by the raise on those with less productivity already, now they don't necessarily have the fund to adjust those who had better pay. Therefore it then encourages talented workers with high productivity to outflow to other places where perhaps the living cost is lower, taxes is lower etc, or pays better.
It's a bit hard for me to understand, but thanks for the post.

Regarding the talented/high productivity workers going to better paying regions - it is normal and expected, and sounds good in a long run, right? Some of them will find better paying jobs elsewhere, some of them will have their wages increased because of developing shortage in say Seattle. So from there it seems that if set correctly, minimum wage would work as rebalancing force that shakes the market so it could reach the real and normal equilibrium.



Again, the current minimum wage is not a normal balance of supply/demand is probably given under the assumption that most people are paid minimum wage, and that most jobs are minimum wage and it is extremely difficult to find jobs that pays better than minimum wage. i.e. minimum wage jobs takes up 30-40% of your local economy.
So what do you think? Is it the case?



It is why the service industry had been created. Which by the time robots take over service industry, maybe it will be human labor producing robots. Since Robots producing Robots sounds like such a safe idea and all
Parts of service industry does look mysterious. So is at a way to distribute wealth, at some degree?




The good paying jobs hasn't left America. It has yet to been created by America. So no, just because other countries are producing better paying jobs doesn't mean it's because Americans have purposely created jobs in other countries. Which, that's another issue we can get into. Supply and Demand, Supply and Demand.
What would those jobs be? I thought American business pretty purposely move their production in cheaper labour markets, too.




Because someone who takes home 15K a year, is better than no one taking home money at all. Unless you want to make a solid argument that someone taking 15k home a year is affecting others to take home 30K a year.

In a short run, or by approaching the issue socially, you may say, it is. But does it make sense in a long run? To me it sounds like a bit like redistribution of wealth. Instead of having some people [minimum wage workers] unemployed and some living a fair life, you control the market so that everybody is barely getting by, somehow. That is not really empowering.

If we would actually agree that it is a redistribution of wealth, and then that redistribution of wealth is actually a needed measure,
we could go on to discuss what would be the most effective way of doing it. [/QUOTE]


Giving businesses even more reason to outsource to the Third World. :lol
Lovely, so the big minimum-paying companies (Walmarts and McDonalds) can move there, and leave the market for local small businesses..?

[GimmeThat]

It's a bit hard for me to understand, but thanks for the post.

Regarding the talented/high productivity workers going to better paying regions - it is normal and expected, and sounds good in a long run, right? Some of them will find better paying jobs elsewhere, some of them will have their wages increased because of developing shortage in say Seattle. So from there it seems that if set correctly, minimum wage would work as rebalancing force that shakes the market so it could reach the real and normal equilibrium.


So what do you think? Is it the case?


Parts of service industry does look mysterious. So is at a way to distribute wealth, at some degree?



What would those jobs be? I thought American business pretty purposely move their production in cheaper labour markets, too.



In a short run, or by approaching the issue socially, you may say, it is. But does it make sense in a long run? To me it sounds like a bit like redistribution of wealth. Instead of having some people [minimum wage workers] unemployed and some living a fair life, you control the market so that everybody is barely getting by, somehow. That is not really empowering.
If we would actually agree that it is a redistribution of wealth, and then that redistribution of wealth is actually a needed measure,
we could go on to discuss what would be the most effective way of doing it.



Do you know what it means to control the market?

You are forcing people to pay others wages where they normally wouldn't, and where people have accepted the job at a price which agreed upon.

If a company makes 50k a year, and where as before the owner makes 30K and the employee makes 20k. Now the owner makes 23K and the employee makes 27K, while the owner is reponsible for the store being open, liable for the store AND the employee's job.

Now everyone is really just getting by, and it isn't empowering.

If a company is making 100k a year, where the owner is reponsible for 60K, employee is responsible for 40K. While the owner takes home 80K and the employee takes home 20K

You think the employee is being controlled from going to work for someone who would pay them 30k, because his/her productivity helps a company generate 40K?

If so, yes, the redistribution of wealth might just be nessecary.

[GimmeThat]

People with degrees sure do like feeling superior to people who don't. What a buncha tw*ts

:rockon:

[senelcoolidge]

There will be a larger gap between the rich and poor. The middle class will leave. I've been to Seattle, Washington State. It's a beautiful place, it's a shame that the politics stink though.

[kNIOKAS]

Do you know what it means to control the market?

You are forcing people to pay others wages where they normally wouldn't, and where people have accepted the job at a price which agreed upon.

If a company makes 50k a year, and where as before the owner makes 30K and the employee makes 20k. Now the owner makes 23K and the employee makes 27K, while the owner is reponsible for the store being open, liable for the store AND the employee's job.

Now everyone is really just getting by, and it isn't empowering.

If a company is making 100k a year, where the owner is reponsible for 60K, employee is responsible for 40K. While the owner takes home 80K and the employee takes home 20K

You think the employee is being controlled from going to work for someone who would pay them 30k, because his/her productivity helps a company generate 40K?

If so, yes, the redistribution of wealth might just be nessecary.
I don't get what you're saying dawg.

So if you're an owner of the restaurant and you make less than your waiters, just drop it and go work in somebody else's restaurant, right? Both you and your waiters would be better off...

But I don't know which of your scenarios are more prevalent, how can I tell.

[GimmeThat]

I don't get what you're saying dawg.

So if you're an owner of the restaurant and you make less than your waiters, just drop it and go work in somebody else's restaurant, right? Both you and your waiters would be better off...
But I don't know which of your scenarios are more prevalent, how can I tell.

Correct and Incorrect. Without raising the minimum wage, people are making the same money as they would be without going to a different restaurant. Raising the minimum wage would mean that people would have to go look for a different job to be better off, yes, but who is saying that the other restaurant would even be hiring since their employee cost just went up? Why would they be looking to hire anyone.

Of course, if your assumption is that if you raise people's minimum wage, and when restaurants are closed, the frequency of people dining out doesn't change. In which, still doesn't gurantee other restaurants to be hiring.


I don't see how from the governments standpoint it even matters which scenario is more prevelant. A responsible government, when raising the minimum wage, and giving employer's the extra burden, should be able to offset the cost of the employer's while in the process of doing so. How employer's take advantage of these offsets and raise in minimum wage, creates the new equilibrium point.

When the wages/tax system changes, it shouldn't be that to kill the small business. But one that weeds out the small, mid-size, and large companies who lack the ability to adjust to change, while providing opportunities for all sizes of companies to strive under the new system.


And no, I don't see how raising the minimum wage gives companies opportunity to strive.

The Stimulus bill was a needed measure, and perhaps an innovative one at the time of need. But it is not an innovative idea to furthur boost a healthy economy, in fact, it is one that deteriates

[Lonely_Sandberg]

Waiters gonna be making around 25 an hour with tips :eek: :eek: :eek:

http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2008/12/88%20Andy%20Samberg%20Hi-Fives%20A%20Bobcat.jpg

[MadeFromDust]

And the rapid devaluation of dolla billz continues...

[Cactus-Sack]

It does when you factor in the impending inflation.

I'm not for or against it, but what K-Blaze was saying was ridiculous. Lol.

And money, adjusted for inflation, is a finite commodity. Currency isn't just created out of thin air.

Yes it absolutely is.

[MadeFromDust]

I think it's time the profits of renters get scrutinized. After all, this HAS to be the motivation for the policrats to raise the minimum wage, no? It's because they deem it unfair that people working minimum wage can't afford to make the monthly payments of an apartment or rental house, right? Well, why exactly do renters NEED to charge each and every individual $600 - $1500 per month depending on location. How much of that is pure greed and profit?

If I've paid for a house and it is mine, I can afford to rent it out for $100 per month if I wanted. Just let the tenant pay whatever consumables there are like water, electricity, etc. I'm getting paid it's all good. That's residual income, a win-win scenario. My tenant can afford a place to live on a lower wage, and I still get dolla billz yall. Then shouldn't the policrats put a cap on rent rather than raise minimum wage?

That's just one point in a complicated issue. It doesn't put me on that side of the issue wholly.

[The Iron Sheik]

The only issue I have is what about those who currently make in the $15-20/hour range? You're going to have those who work at McDonalds making the same or almost the same as a college graduate. If I went to college for 4 years and spent $20-30K, I'd be pretty pissed if someone at McDonalds was making the same as me. What was the point of going to college?

So now, you're going to have 16-17 year olds thinking "Why spend all that money on college when I get a job for $15/hour right off the bat? It sets a bad precedent because education, instead of being thought of as a stepping stone for something better down the line, will be thought off as a waste of time.

why should you care what someone else makes? it's not compromising your life. fast food jobs and retail still suck anyway, and not everyone will be able or willing to just go work at their local Macy's

and if you're going to college for the sole reason of "i'm just gonna make more money" instead of going because it's something you need to do to do what you want to do in life, you're wasting your time from the get go. people who go to college for the money don't last long

[bagelred]

Blaming poor people again?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM

[chosen_one6]

A living wage is what this entire country needs. Seattle made this move for the people. :applause:

[ZenMaster]

And no, I don't see how raising the minimum wage gives companies opportunity to strive.



From a social standpoint, what is the point of having striving businesses if most of the people working there are doing shitty?

[GimmeThat]

From a social standpoint, what is the point of having striving businesses if most of the people working there are doing shitty?

Which is why the NCAA student athletes are seeking for the creation of a Union.


Also, food chains existed as the natural order of nature.

Unless you're in the not for profit business I suppose.

[DCL]

a lot more people will move to Seattle in the near term and rent will skyrocket over there, kinda offsetting the raise in wages with higher cost of living. rental property owners win.

[GimmeThat]

a lot more people will move to Seattle in the near term and rent will skyrocket over there, kinda offsetting the raise in wages with higher cost of living. rental property owners win.

And years from now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvgZkm1xWPE

[Jailblazers7]

a lot more people will move to Seattle in the near term and rent will skyrocket over there, kinda offsetting the raise in wages with higher cost of living. rental property owners win.

Lol yeah a ton of people are anxious to pick up their lives and move to an already expensive city so that they can work a min wage job.

[GimmeThat]

Lol yeah a ton of people are anxious to pick up their lives and move to an already expensive city so that they can work a min wage job.

It might be people who lives JUST outside of Seattle.

A little bit like that NJ, NY situation.
they drive in town, go make a paycheck they wouldn't had been making just outside of it, then drive home and tell mom and pop. unlike the kids down the street, I drove an hour today, and my burgers were like, 6 bucks more expensive per hour.

[Kblaze8855]

I think it's time the profits of renters get scrutinized. After all, this HAS to be the motivation for the policrats to raise the minimum wage, no? It's because they deem it unfair that people working minimum wage can't afford to make the monthly payments of an apartment or rental house, right? Well, why exactly do renters NEED to charge each and every individual $600 - $1500 per month depending on location. How much of that is pure greed and profit?

I know people with 3 rental properties who make less off of them than their day job making 12 dollars an hour.

Property taxes and maintenance kill you. People will destroy a house that isnt theirs. 80% of the time you move someone out of a house you have to put in a new bathroom floor just off them letting leaks go unmentioned for months.

100 dollars a month wouldnt even cover the taxes on one of my houses much less taxes PLUS insurance which you have to have if you arent an idiot.

Lot of costs you wouldnt think about till you tried it.

It might run you 20 thousand just getting an old home up to code....

[Bless Mathews]

I live in Seattle.

First of, the minimum wage is already damn near 10$/hr.

One of highest in nation.

It's a "plan " to get to 15 in 3 to 7 years.

Smh.

[GimmeThat]

I know people with 3 rental properties who make less off of them than their day job making 12 dollars an hour.

Property taxes and maintenance kill you. People will destroy a house that isnt theirs. 80% of the time you move someone out of a house you have to put in a new bathroom floor just off them letting leaks go unmentioned for months.

100 dollars a month wouldnt even cover the taxes on one of my houses much less taxes PLUS insurance which you have to have if you arent an idiot.

Lot of costs you wouldnt think about till you tried it.

It might run you 20 thousand just getting an old home up to code....


People are people. Just because you raise their wages to 15 bucks an hour, there are no promises that they will "behave" like those who's been making 15 bucks.

[kNIOKAS]

People are people. Just because you raise their wages to 15 bucks an hour, there are no promises that they will "behave" like those who's been making 15 bucks.
You're saying whole lot but never saying anything from yourself. What do you think about the issue?

[GimmeThat]

You're saying whole lot but never saying anything from yourself. What do you think about the issue?

:no:

you just lack compreshension ability

every single post pretty much reflects that an abrupt raise of the minimum wage to 15 bucks an hour is bad for the local economy.

[oarabbus]

Again, to the people strongly for this raise, why stop at $15? Why not raise the minimum wage to $20 and lift everyone in the city out of poverty? $35? :confusedshrug:

[kNIOKAS]

:no:

you just lack compreshension ability

every single post pretty much reflects that an abrupt raise of the minimum wage to 15 bucks an hour is bad for the local economy.
I am not to make assumptions about your unstated opinion. Well thanks you said it,

but is it a good move or a bad move? What are your values there?.


Again, to the people strongly for this raise, why stop at $15? Why not raise the minimum wage to $20 and lift everyone in the city out of poverty? $35? :confusedshrug:
Because $35 would be overpricing the unquolified labour. $15 is expected it to bring it to the free labour market price.

[InfiniteBaskets]

why should you care what someone else makes? it's not compromising your life. fast food jobs and retail still suck anyway, and not everyone will be able or willing to just go work at their local Macy's


I don't think it's really people in the $20-$30 range care so much what other people make, it's just that we all care about our relative buying power.

I'd be perfectly fine working the same job I have now and never getting another raise in my entire life, so long as every other worker/boss/investor in the world gets a 2% pay decrease every year, effectively increasing my buying power.

Raising the minimum wage alone won't cause rapid inflation immediately for the entire economy, just the sectors/industries that min wage workers choose to spend on/ drive up demand. This actually will be like a revolving door policy for stores like Family Dollar / Walmart / local diners or chains. Pay min wage employees more money, min wage employees of the local land start shopping more at your low-priced business.

The companies that will benefit most are those that are currently paying in the $20-$30 range that won't have to raise min wage, and yet target the min wage consumer base.

[tmacattack33]

won't the cost of everything go up just to off set this.

Maybe not overnight, but you get what I'm saying?

Probably in a way. But you could always just live there for a few years in a cheap apartment and then move out. This would be a very smart thing to do for people with no skills.

[Fallguy20]

Based on both a functionalist and conflict theory perspective, there will always be "poor". That is the point of capitalism-- the ability to do well for yourself (hopefully better than that guy) at the expense of someone else. Don't tell me that most often exploitation is where profits are made. As compared with socialism and communism where the main complaint is that "now everyone has an equal chance to be poor", capitalism provides a chance at bettering your standing.

Think of it in terms of a global economy which we are clearly heading to. If the minimum wage was $15 (on some standard currency) across the globe, what would happen? $15 would start to mean a whole lot less. In the current system... when everyone is making a "living wage", pretty soon no one will be.

Expect to have someone exploited and poor. Or redistribute the wealth from the top down and not taking from the middle. All through this the power elite, even just the top 10%, wont feel a thing if the point of this was to redistribute wealth... it will come at the expense of small business owners and the middle class.

[kNIOKAS]

Based on both a functionalist and conflict theory perspective, there will always be "poor". That is the point of capitalism-- the ability to do well for yourself (hopefully better than that guy) at the expense of someone else. Don't tell me that most often exploitation is where profits are made. As compared with socialism and communism where the main complaint is that "now everyone has an equal chance to be poor", capitalism provides a chance at bettering your standing.

Think of it in terms of a global economy which we are clearly heading to. If the minimum wage was $15 (on some standard currency) across the globe, what would happen? $15 would start to mean a whole lot less. In the current system... when everyone is making a "living wage", pretty soon no one will be.

Expect to have someone exploited and poor. Or redistribute the wealth from the top down and not taking from the middle. All through this the power elite, even just the top 10%, wont feel a thing if the point of this was to redistribute wealth... it will come at the expense of small business owners and the middle class.
We aren't really heading to the global economy. If we were, the production would have no point in being located in places like China or India.


Why would you think that raising the minimum wage is going to trim the middle class down?

[Fallguy20]

We aren't really heading to the global economy. If we were, the production would have no point in being located in places like China or India.


We already have a global economy. Its not to the extent where with I illustrated my example... yet. But again, "heading towards".



Why would you think that raising the minimum wage is going to trim the middle class down?

What do you gain by asking a question in nearly every single post?

Why wouldn't it trim the middle class down?

[kNIOKAS]

Why wouldn't it trim the middle class down?
Because it would likely to rebalance the labour market to the real equilibrium (I assume the minimum wage now is too low). Since significant portion of the people wouldn't be underpaid, there would be more money in the market for small business, too (unless small business are all operating in the luxury services market). It would effect big companies more because they rely on paying their employees minimum and they employ lots of people.

[Godzuki]

Because it would likely to rebalance the labour market to the real equilibrium (I assume the minimum wage now is too low). Since significant portion of the people wouldn't be underpaid, there would be more money in the market for small business, too (unless small business are all operating in the luxury services market). It would effect big companies more because they rely on paying their employees minimum and they employ lots of people.


i've already said this before but it would completely gut the small business's and those in the middle class running business's...mostly the industries that require a lot of low end workers. It'll hit the corporate business's as well but they're generally part of a much larger entity that they can very likely absorb those costs, and stay in business while raising their prices to compensate. They also get tax credit incentives by local governments to do business and create that many jobs that smaller business's don't in some cases.

Why do you guys think wealth is redistributed evenly when most people spend with the bigger corporations?

the money for the minimum wage increase is coming directly from the business's that hire the most minimum wage workers obviously. They are paying a 40%~ increase in their payrolls, payroll taxes, insurances related to payrolls. Most cannot afford this, all of which are likely the small business's. If they can they have to be doing VERY WELL for themselves right now but many aren't. I mean you're talking significantly more money here all of these small business's that need low end workers are going to have to pay for the simplest of job chores. To think they can all afford this off the bat isn't realistic. The big corporations can, most of which are busy, and they'll get most of that redistribution of wealth from the low end, basically the small business's money.

everyone isn't running to mom and pop's small diner to spend their new wealth. they're going to Cheesecake Factory, McDonalds, ChickFilA, etc.

either way i see so many restaurants struggling already, to think they can afford a 40% increase in the wages is ridiculous. I can't even believe Dem's are pushing this. The over 10~ year plan by Seattle is a completely different ball game since it'd almost be normal for minimum wage to increase that much just from inflation, but people talking about doing it overnight are asking to put many small business's, mostly of the landscaping, cleaning services, restaurants, etc. variety out of business.

If it were being done overnight in Seattle, they'd have little to no industry business's there that required many lower end workers. It'd be all white collar high pay companies, and the lower end ones would have to move outside of Seattle i figure.

[shlver]

Because it would likely to rebalance the labour market to the real equilibrium (I assume the minimum wage now is too low). Since significant portion of the people wouldn't be underpaid, there would be more money in the market for small business, too (unless small business are all operating in the luxury services market). It would effect big companies more because they rely on paying their employees minimum and they employ lots of people.
How many people are actually making minimum wage? Then explain to me how that is a significant portion of the US population.

[shlver]

First we need to clarify what the federal minimum wage should be. A completely objective point of view would be the minimum wage should be a reference point to A) prevent exploitation of teenagers/the elderly and B) mandate a federal wage for people with a very limited skillset. The minimum wage is basically meaningless other than a reference point. Most states have minimum wages that deviate from the federal one because wages are simply a product of supply and demand and state and local city economies are very different from each other.

Now it is fairly obvious that setting a higher federal minimum wage would cause short term business decisions that would have immediate effects. An example would be here in Reno, the gambling/hotel industry in Reno is having an incredibly difficult time due to tourism being at a low point. Workers and hours would most definitely be cut if the minimum wage was raise. Another example is the student worker industry. Many undergraduate students make close to $8-9 dollars in labs to GAIN experience. Research labs have huge overhead in operating costs and increasing the minimum wage would make it worse. No one with the ability to gain skills, educate themselves, and improve themselves will work a minimum wage job. Very few places offer minimum wage because people simply do not want to work for minimum wage.
Shutting down entire industries might have been hyperbole, but I can see it happening in certain areas if $15 was mandated at a federal level. Leave this decision to the states.

Posted this in the other thread but posting it in this thread as well.
Having Seattle do this would be a good experiment, but even good outcomes would not be a good indication if a federal change is the right choice. Cities/states and their economies are different from each other.

[kNIOKAS]

How many people are actually making minimum wage? Then explain to me how that is a significant portion of the US population.
I don't know, but I suppose it is a fair number. I think majority of immigrants are those getting the low-end jobs. It might be not as significant in the whole US, but in certain states - it is. Is it significant in Seattle/Washington? Seems that some people think so, if that's what they based their decision on...


i've already said this before but it would completely gut the small business's and those in the middle class running business's...mostly the industries that require a lot of low end workers. It'll hit the corporate business's as well but they're generally part of a much larger entity that they can very likely absorb those costs, and stay in business while raising their prices to compensate. They also get tax credit incentives by local governments to do business and create that many jobs that smaller business's don't in some cases.

Why do you guys think wealth is redistributed evenly when most people spend with the bigger corporations?

the money for the minimum wage increase is coming directly from the business's that hire the most minimum wage workers obviously. They are paying a 40%~ increase in their payrolls, payroll taxes, insurances related to payrolls. Most cannot afford this, all of which are likely the small business's. If they can they have to be doing VERY WELL for themselves right now but many aren't. I mean you're talking significantly more money here all of these small business's that need low end workers are going to have to pay for the simplest of job chores. To think they can all afford this off the bat isn't realistic. The big corporations can, most of which are busy, and they'll get most of that redistribution of wealth from the low end, basically the small business's money.

everyone isn't running to mom and pop's small diner to spend their new wealth. they're going to Cheesecake Factory, McDonalds, ChickFilA, etc.

either way i see so many restaurants struggling already, to think they can afford a 40% increase in the wages is ridiculous. I can't even believe Dem's are pushing this. The over 10~ year plan by Seattle is a completely different ball game since it'd almost be normal for minimum wage to increase that much just from inflation, but people talking about doing it overnight are asking to put many small business's, mostly of the landscaping, cleaning services, restaurants, etc. variety out of business.

Well I find it misguided to care about the middle class in expense of the least earning people. They (middle class) aren't endorsed by the system (or rather the current state of the system) anyway. Lets look at it from the broader view.

Suppose that low-end employees are underpaid, and it is not a normal equilibrium of supply/demand. Then market would be skewed, right. Isn't it in everybody's interest to make it free, in a sense? Now small business (which we for the sake of simplicity imagine as a small family restaurant) rely on underpaid workforce with their business model. But so is the big companies. If the balance shifts towards the equilibrium, isn't everybody better off?? Of course, the employment would be higher, but we are facing unemployent everywhere around the world. It could be that it is caused by more efficient technology, it could be something else or both.

To me it does not make sense to keep low-end employees being underpaid, the big companies employing ow-end workers doing well, and small business employing low-end workers just barely pulling it through it.



If it were being done overnight in Seattle, they'd have little to no industry business's there that required many lower end workers. It'd be all white collar high pay companies, and the lower end ones would have to move outside of Seattle i figure.
This is true but it's similar to not cutting portions of government sectors while it's clear they are useless. People would get unemployed... That's true.

[Lonely_Sandberg]

This. What happens to the people working jobs that pay ~$20 an hour currently? Their skills have become incredibly devalued, nearly worthless. When the lab technician is making just $3 bucks more per hour than a guy at McDonalds and waiters/waitresses are making more than the lab tech... :facepalm

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrqev2LBVB1qgcd7ao1_250.gif

[Dresta]

I am not to make assumptions about your unstated opinion. Well thanks you said it,

but is it a good move or a bad move? What are your values there?.


Because $35 would be overpricing the unquolified labour. $15 is expected it to bring it to the free labour market price.
:facepalm

The only thing that can determine the 'free labour market price' is the market, not some government bureaucrat arbitrarily choosing a number and deeming it the fair one. What you are saying doesn't make any sense. Instituting a minimum wage prevents the market from determining the cost of labour.

[The Iron Sheik]

Based on both a functionalist and conflict theory perspective, there will always be "poor". That is the point of capitalism-- the ability to do well for yourself (hopefully better than that guy) at the expense of someone else. Don't tell me that most often exploitation is where profits are made. As compared with socialism and communism where the main complaint is that "now everyone has an equal chance to be poor", capitalism provides a chance at bettering your standing.

Think of it in terms of a global economy which we are clearly heading to. If the minimum wage was $15 (on some standard currency) across the globe, what would happen? $15 would start to mean a whole lot less. In the current system... when everyone is making a "living wage", pretty soon no one will be.

Expect to have someone exploited and poor. Or redistribute the wealth from the top down and not taking from the middle. All through this the power elite, even just the top 10%, wont feel a thing if the point of this was to redistribute wealth... it will come at the expense of small business owners and the middle class.

believing that everyone starts off with an equal chance to better their life or finances is laughable. people who have already "made it" only want to keep making it and making more. that will keep many others from ever reaching that same level.

it isn't even about making it so that everyone will be in the elite. that's impossible. the success of 1 is built upon the failures of thousands of others. what is being debated is that everyone should be able to provide the bare minimum for themselves and their families with the bare minimum. that isn't possible right now with the current minimum wage, without government assistance. even with government assistance it's still nigh impossible.

[Dresta]

believing that everyone starts off with an equal chance to better their life or finances is laughable. people who have already "made it" only want to keep making it and making more. that will keep many others from ever reaching that same level.

it isn't even about making it so that everyone will be in the elite. that's impossible. the success of 1 is built upon the failures of thousands of others. what is being debated is that everyone should be able to provide the bare minimum for themselves and their families with the bare minimum. that isn't possible right now with the current minimum wage, without government assistance. even with government assistance it's still nigh impossible.
Fundamental economic illiteracy detected.

The reality is that 95+% of people are living pretty ****ing cushty compared with the majority of 100-150 years ago, and that is a result of the successes of individuals, individuals whose successes have evidently helped thousands, rather than ruining them as you appear to be postulating.

It has resulted in such an accumulation of wealth in fact that we are capable of wasting vast quantities to fund moral hazard creating welfare projects like the following for single parent households:

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/Money%20Earned.jpg

We are actually so wealthy that we can create economic black holes of disincentives like the above and actually maintain a functioning economy and adequate standard of living, so please stop with the outraged platitudes, they belong on the University campus.

[kNIOKAS]

:facepalm

The only thing that can determine the 'free labour market price' is the market, not some government bureaucrat arbitrarily choosing a number and deeming it the fair one. What you are saying doesn't make any sense. Instituting a minimum wage prevents the market from determining the cost of labour.
:rolleyes:

Did you read anything... Can you read?

[Bless Mathews]

Jesus.

It hasn't happened.

Minimum wage is 9.75/hr right now.

It's a long term plan.

[The Iron Sheik]

Fundamental economic illiteracy detected.

The reality is that 95+% of people are living pretty ****ing cushty compared with the majority of 100-150 years ago, and that is a result of the successes of individuals, individuals whose successes have evidently helped thousands, rather than ruining them as you appear to be postulating.

yes, advances in science have made modern life better than it was 100s of years ago. use common sense: in order for a person to become wealthy, they need thousands, millions of others to spend it on them. on a smaller scale, 1 guy getting a job means the next guy loses out. there is a limited amount of success and happiness to go around. millions of people are exploited for the favor of others.


It has resulted in such an accumulation of wealth in fact that we are capable of wasting vast quantities to fund moral hazard creating welfare projects like the following for single parent households:

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/Money%20Earned.jpg

We are actually so wealthy that we can create economic black holes of disincentives like the above and actually maintain a functioning economy and adequate standard of living, so please stop with the outraged platitudes, they belong on the University campus.

that standard of living is unattainable for many on minimum wage. an adult working a full time job shouldn't need to have government assistance just to still scrape the bottom of the barrel. and that's what many min wage people do.

[Dresta]

:rolleyes:

Did you read anything... Can you read?
:facepalm

err.. yeh, i did read, thanks.

You said this:

'Because $35 would be overpricing the unquolified labour. $15 is expected it to bring it to the free labour market price.'

Regardless of how many times i suffer through reading that nonsense, the fundamental fact that it makes very little sense (either grammatically or economically) does not change. You would do best to discuss only subjects you know something about, because your ignorance is woefully apparent here, and yet you are still arrogant about it. How typical.


yes, advances in science have made modern life better than it was 100s of years ago. use common sense: in order for a person to become wealthy, they need thousands, millions of others to spend it on them. on a smaller scale, 1 guy getting a job means the next guy loses out. there is a limited amount of success and happiness to go around. millions of people are exploited for the favor of others.


that standard of living is unattainable for many on minimum wage. an adult working a full time job shouldn't need to have government assistance just to still scrape the bottom of the barrel. and that's what many min wage people do.Advances in science? What do you think these occurred in a vacuum or something; that they could be dreamt up and implemented without capital? These 'advances' are a result of the spontaneous ordering of the market process and would not have come to be without it.


No, an able adult shouldn't require government monetary assistance at all, and they should also be capable of building themselves a life that doesn't revolve around the minimum wage and benefits (minimum wage is a form of government assistance btw, so you somewhat contradict yourself). Of course, if the Federal Government is bridging the pay-gap between minimum wage and the cost of living, then the incentive to get a better paying job and potentially lose your benefits isn't really there. That table showed that of two individuals living in the same circumstances (single parent household of 4), the one living on minimum wage is going to take home more expendable income than the one on $60k a year. There is something very wrong with that, but you seemed to have missed it.

[longhornfan1234]

Minimum wage will always be minimum wage status. Everybody from current hourly wage to supervisors to management will receive a equal % bump up so cost of goods will rise keeping the minimum wage worker in a low disposable income economic class.

[Take Your Lumps]

Oh no! Poor people will have more money in their pockets to spend (because they don't save) in a consumerist society! I wonder what will happen?

The top down trickle down bullshit has been tried and failed miserably. It's time to try something different...bottom up economics. And I'm happy to see cities and states becoming the labs to test this out. San Francisco raised their minimum wage to almost $11/hr and they're doing fine.

[Godzuki]

i thought it was funny listenign to NPR the other day where they did a spot light on a single mom who makes $10/hour and what her concerns are today for being 'poor'. she apparently had a nice place, nice TV, and her kid had a bunch of toys in how they described her place...they also mentioned if she were poor 10~ years ago she probably wouldn't have a washer/dryer either but she does.

she was complaining mainly about how she lives in a bad neighborhood and how she can't let her kid go out to play, and how she had a neighbor who murdered someone a week ago so she is always worried about crime... like that was the worst thing in the world and the whole time i kept thinking of this thread.

there just seems to be such a different standard now for standards of living that its hard to be sympathetic to what 'poor' means living in America....i mean starving poor, no clothes poor, no shelter poor, etc. i can be very sympathetic to. having to take the bus, be frugal with food options, or having other earners in your household because they make minimum just is hard to get behind. its not supposed to be easy.

[Dresta]

Oh no! Poor people will have more money in their pockets to spend (because they don't save) in a consumerist society! I wonder what will happen?

The top down trickle down bullshit has been tried and failed miserably. It's time to try something different...bottom up economics. And I'm happy to see cities and states becoming the labs to test this out. San Francisco raised their minimum wage to almost $11/hr and they're doing fine.
And why aren't they saving exactly? Saving is the backbone of investment, people need to save. Who is directly incentivising people not to do this?

[Take Your Lumps]

No, an able adult shouldn't require government monetary assistance at all, and they should also be capable of building themselves a life that doesn't revolve around the minimum wage and benefits (minimum wage is a form of government assistance btw, so you somewhat contradict yourself).

Sorry, but this is such absolute bullshit.

This country's economy revolves around huge corporations that produce SHITTY jobs. Walmart, Disney World, McDonalds...they pay absolute shit and then the federal government ends up subsidizing their shitty pay by having to provide individuals with monetary assistance so that they're not starving and living on your streets.

There are more than 14,000 McDonald's locations in the US and its somehow the workers' fault for working there? **** you. Someone has to work there.

[Take Your Lumps]

And why aren't they saving exactly? Saving is the backbone of investment, people need to save. Who is directly incentivising people not to do this?

Probably a bunch of reasons. Lack of economic education in most cases, bad habits learned from poor parents, laziness in some cases. In a lot of cases, people live weeks behind consistently on minimum wage jobs and it's next to impossible to save anything. But does it really matter WHY? The fact is that it's happening and it needs to addressed but waxing poetically and simply saying "Oh they just need to pick themselves up and get a better job" is absolute bullshit. There are a shit ton of shitty jobs that require a shit ton of low level workers in this country.

Who exactly would clean toilets and serve burgers if they all had engineering degrees?

Companies take advantage of federal welfare in the form of food stamps and medical care for their poor workers which they don't have to pay for, and that's OK with you?

People complain about progressive policies "killing jobs" and yet they turn around and demonize those same jobs as being beneath anyone with a brain. Talk about elitist.

[Godzuki]

Sorry, but this is such absolute bullshit.

This country's economy revolves around huge corporations that produce SHITTY jobs. Walmart, Disney World, McDonalds...they pay absolute shit and then the federal government ends up subsidizing their shitty pay by having to provide individuals with monetary assistance so that they're not starving and living on your streets.

There are more than 14,000 McDonald's locations in the US and its somehow the workers' fault for working there? **** you. Someone has to work there.


those bigger companies offering those low end jobs tend to give much better benefits to their employee's tho. that is a big plus in working for them vs most non corporate entities.

and people should talk separately or complementary of pay in terms of government aid since the high school kid working there isn't really getting that. its the 60 year old lady in a wheel chair checking peoples receipts as they walk out that are most likely getting that aid.

[Dresta]

Probably a bunch of reasons. Lack of economic education in most cases, bad habits learned from poor parents, laziness in some cases. In a lot of cases, people live weeks behind consistently on minimum wage jobs and it's next to impossible to save anything. But does it really matter WHY? The fact is that it's happening and it needs to addressed but waxing poetically and simply saying "Oh they just need to pick themselves up and get a better job" is absolute bullshit. There are a shit ton of shitty jobs that require a shit ton of low level workers in this country.

Who exactly would clean toilets and serve burgers if they all had engineering degrees?

Companies take advantage of federal welfare in the form of food stamps and medical care for their poor workers which they don't have to pay for, and that's OK with you?

People complain about progressive policies "killing jobs" and yet they turn around and demonize those same jobs as being beneath anyone with a brain. Talk about elitist.No, it has little to do with any of that nonsense. People aren't saving because there is no incentive to save with the government perpetually pressing down interest rates while pumping freshly printed money into the economy to preserve the illusion of false prosperity (particularly amongst the wealth + asset holders).

I love how people like you are so forceful about your opinions when you know nothing of the technical mechanisms that cause the things you whinge about, and then tend to support the kind of policies that cause just the kind of thing you hate. The price of ignorance and vanity i guess.


Sorry, but this is such absolute bullshit.

This country's economy revolves around huge corporations that produce SHITTY jobs. Walmart, Disney World, McDonalds...they pay absolute shit and then the federal government ends up subsidizing their shitty pay by having to provide individuals with monetary assistance so that they're not starving and living on your streets.

There are more than 14,000 McDonald's locations in the US and its somehow the workers' fault for working there? **** you. Someone has to work there.
So what, you don't think that it's a form of government assistance to mandate a minimum wage? You don't think the increase in unemployment is going to cost the government money?

You bitch about corporations that you probably frequent, ignoring that the government and people embrace policies that lead to the growth of quasi-monopolies, and that despite this, small to medium size businesses still hire a large majority of the labour force. It is not up to you to decide which businesses should prosper or not: that is up to the consumer to decide. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant.

[Droid101]

i thought it was funny listenign to NPR the other day where they did a spot light on a single mom who makes $10/hour and what her concerns are today for being 'poor'. she apparently had a nice place, nice TV, and her kid had a bunch of toys in how they described her place...they also mentioned if she were poor 10~ years ago she probably wouldn't have a washer/dryer either but she does.

she was complaining mainly about how she lives in a bad neighborhood and how she can't let her kid go out to play, and how she had a neighbor who murdered someone a week ago so she is always worried about crime... like that was the worst thing in the world and the whole time i kept thinking of this thread.

there just seems to be such a different standard now for standards of living that its hard to be sympathetic to what 'poor' means living in America....i mean starving poor, no clothes poor, no shelter poor, etc. i can be very sympathetic to. having to take the bus, be frugal with food options, or having other earners in your household because they make minimum just is hard to get behind. its not supposed to be easy.
http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/video/2011/07/19/rectorpoor.JPG

[The Iron Sheik]

No, an able adult shouldn't require government monetary assistance at all, and they should also be capable of building themselves a life that doesn't revolve around the minimum wage and benefits (minimum wage is a form of government assistance btw, so you somewhat contradict yourself).

ah, the old "it's your own fault that your employer pays a shitty wage" rabble. i'm glad that you have been able to avoid living on a minimum wage salary, but not everyone else is as fortunate. i just don't get how people can sit there and so confidently demonize the less fortunate as if everyone everywhere always has the ideal conditions to advance or make something better for themselves and their families, and anytime something doesn't go their way it's their fault. it's such an ignorant point of view. there are limited opportunities and people are born with different abilities and under different circumstances

and if you want to be that technical with the term "government assistance" then tons of things fall under that umbrella.


Of course, if the Federal Government is bridging the pay-gap between minimum wage and the cost of living, then the incentive to get a better paying job and potentially lose your benefits isn't really there. That table showed that of two individuals living in the same circumstances (single parent household of 4), the one living on minimum wage is going to take home more expendable income than the one on $60k a year. There is something very wrong with that, but you seemed to have missed it.

lol you should try actually living that. ask any person if they would rather make $7.95 (my state's minimum wage), get a bitch ass $150 per month in foodstamps and live in a piss poor neighborhood on section 8 or relinquish those benefits to make a salary almost 5x what they were making on minimum wage. everyone will choose the latter.

[The Iron Sheik]

during the last election lots of people were saying that people need to get off food stamps and welfare. now that there's a possible way to help people do that those same people are arguing against it :lol

[DCL]

San Francisco raised their minimum wage to almost $11/hr and they're doing fine.


$11/hr is a poverty wage in SF.

[The Iron Sheik]

she was complaining mainly about how she lives in a bad neighborhood and how she can't let her kid go out to play, and how she had a neighbor who murdered someone a week ago so she is always worried about crime... like that was the worst thing in the world and the whole time i kept thinking of this thread.


wait, what? :lol

living next door to a murderer is just...nothing to be bothered about? lol

[Dresta]

ah, the old "it's your own fault that your employer pays a shitty wage" rabble. i'm glad that you have been able to avoid living on a minimum wage salary, but not everyone else is as fortunate. i just don't get how people can sit there and so confidently demonize the less fortunate as if everyone everywhere always has the ideal conditions to advance or make something better for themselves and their families, and anytime something doesn't go their way it's their fault. it's such an ignorant point of view. there are limited opportunities and people are born with different abilities and under different circumstances

and if you want to be that technical with the term "government assistance" then tons of things fall under that umbrella.



lol you should try actually living that. ask any person if they would rather make $7.95 (my state's minimum wage), get a bitch ass $150 per month in foodstamps and live in a piss poor neighborhood on section 8 or relinquish those benefits to make a salary almost 5x what they were making on minimum wage. everyone will choose the latter.
You have turned an intellectual discussion into an emotional one completely devoid of substance of any kind. You don't actually have an argument: you are just attempting to guilt and demonise the dispassionate observations i have made. If a society is to be successful then its citizenry must find ways of making themselves productive/valuable individuals, and if they remain marginal workers their whole lives then that can only be their own fault. ****, might as well give up and get money as a low key drug dealer instead of earning minimum wage your whole life. Just show some ****ing initiative, jeez, there are loads of ways to make money aside from salaried employment.

And if the government pays money to grant a person or group of people a privilege then it is government assistance; that isn't 'technical' it is the just what the word means.

There is nothing else worth replying to here, so i'll leave it at that.

[The Iron Sheik]

You have turned an intellectual discussion into an emotional one completely devoid of substance of any kind. You don't actually have an argument: you are just attempting to guilt and demonise the dispassionate observations i have made.

lol it's always going to be an "emotional" debate it comes down to how much one values the life of another, in its most basic sense. your "observation" that people always have a chance to make something better and is only in a shitty spot because they are shitty is very ignorant and not true. common sense would denote that.


If a society is to be successful then its citizenry must find ways of making themselves productive/valuable individuals, and if they remain marginal workers their whole lives then that can only be their own fault.

so the people who sit at the foundation of corporations are invaluable? lol without "marginal workers" those places wouldn't last. and again, opportunity isn't an infinite resource. to assume that there are no outside factors that play a part in people's lives is stupid. it isn't always a lack of initiative that keeps people from doing more


****, might as well give up and get money as a low key drug dealer instead of earning minimum wage your whole life. Just show some ****ing initiative, jeez, there are loads of ways to make money aside from salaried employment.

not everyone wants to do clinical trials or is able. and they don't pay like they used to and if you work you won't have time to do any worth any amount of money. moreover, working a 40 hour week especially if you have kids doesn't always give you the time to do shit on the side. combine that with being a student and it's nigh impossible


And if the government pays money to grant a person or group of people a privilege then it is government assistance; that isn't 'technical' it is the just what the word means.

****, then damn near everything we have is a form of government assistance since the government gives us the privileges to have and do certain things

[GimmeThat]

Kblaze and prof murder, if it really isn't a big deal why stop at $15? Why not raise the minimum wage to $25? How about $50 and everyone can have a BMW? :confusedshrug:


9 pages, and everyone who thinks this is a great idea can't answer this question?

[DukeDelonte13]

9 pages, and everyone who thinks this is a great idea can't answer this question?

because it's a retarded question that doesn't have a basis in reality.

[The Iron Sheik]

9 pages, and everyone who thinks this is a great idea can't answer this question?

because Ferrari >>

[kNIOKAS]

9 pages, and everyone who thinks this is a great idea can't answer this question?
Did you read what I wrote?

[Dresta]

****, then damn near everything we have is a form of government assistance since the government gives us the privileges to have and do certain things
Precisely, which is the problem in the first place. Once people become reliant on the state for just about everything they stop being capable of doing anything themselves, and on their own initiative. A bunch of sheep with the state as their shepherd is a good way to put it, but it is a degrading, unsustainable and boring way to live life, and it is the direction towards which we are trending, and have been trending towards for some time.

As soon as one grows old enough to escape one daddy, in comes daddy no. 2 and you can never escape him - even when you die you'll be subject to his bureaucratic procedures.


Did you read what I wrote?
What you wrote didn't make the slightest bit of sense.

[GimmeThat]

Did you read what I wrote?



Kblaze and prof murder, if it really isn't a big deal why stop at $15? Why not raise the minimum wage to $25? How about $50 and everyone can have a BMW?



9 pages, and everyone who thinks this is a great idea can't answer this question?

[ballup]

Why not lower the minimum wage to like 50 cent? While we are at it, why not strip everyone's property?

[DukeDelonte13]

9 pages, and everyone who thinks this is a great idea can't answer this question?


Why should we allow people to be able to buy fully automatic machine guns? What's next? People buying tanks and rocket launchers?

Why should we allow gays to get married? What's next? People marrying animals?

Why should we legalize marijuana? What's next? Legalizing crystal meth?


Nobody can answer your question because it's dumb.

[Dresta]

Why should we allow people to be able to buy fully automatic machine guns? What's next? People buying tanks and rocket launchers?

Why should we allow gays to get married? What's next? People marrying animals?

Why should we legalize marijuana? What's next? Legalizing crystal meth?


Nobody can answer your question because it's dumb.
Legit questions tbh.. Might as well push things to their conclusions rather than being a half-arsed fakkit about it.

[DukeDelonte13]

Legit questions tbh.. Might as well push things to their conclusions rather than being a half-arsed fakkit about it.


Hey wannabe neckbeard, How are my stupid questions different than the "What's next, let's raise minimum wage to 50 dollars an hour?"
:oldlol:


I'm expecting a 1000 word essay with big boy words to show all the randoms online how intelligent and thoughtful you are.

Calling my stupid questions "legit"? Are you serious? :oldlol:

EDIT: i'm dying to hear how legalizing animal marriage is a legit question.

[longhornfan1234]

Rise in minimum wage will increase business costs. Does anyone deny that?
When business costs rise, product costs rise. Does anyone deny that?
When product costs rise, consumers can afford less of that product? Does anyone deny that?


I can see a lot of people ITT haven't took an Econ class in college.

[senelcoolidge]

Why not lower the minimum wage to like 50 cent? While we are at it, why not strip everyone's property?

That's why communism sucks ****. Seattle has garbage politics. I really like that place but the politics are horrendous.

[oarabbus]

Why should we allow people to be able to buy fully automatic machine guns? What's next? People buying tanks and rocket launchers?

Why should we allow gays to get married? What's next? People marrying animals?

Why should we legalize marijuana? What's next? Legalizing crystal meth?


Nobody can answer your question because it's dumb.



because it's a retarded question that doesn't have a basis in reality.


:biggums:

All you're doing is sidestepping the question with non-answers or other absurd questions that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Others said that raising the minimum wage will not raise prices or affect the quality of life for those currently making ~$20 an hour and will not affect their lives at all. I disagree, so I posed a simple question. No one has answered it and you've stooped down to calling it a retarded question without a basis in reality when it's actually VERY relevant to the topic at hand.

Why not try to be less of a jerk about it and post some kind of informed, thought out response. We're not talking about crystal meth, marijuana, rocket launchers, gay people, or any of that. We're discussing how raising the minimum wage considerably does (or doesn't) affect both local and broader economies.


Obviously the $50 dollar minimum wage was pushing the argument to absurdity and facetious. If you took that at face value I have no words for you. It's difficult to have an intelligent discussion with someone who's going to get hung up on that. Again: if raising the minimum wage to $15 doesn't affect the prices of goods, why not raise the minimum wage to $20, or $25, or more. Give people a truly living wage.



If you're going to troll get out of this topic, go do that elswhere. Let's not move the goalposts, let's stick to the economic consequences of a minimum wage increase :coleman:

[Dresta]

Hey wannabe neckbeard, How are my stupid questions different than the "What's next, let's raise minimum wage to 50 dollars an hour?"
:oldlol:


I'm expecting a 1000 word essay with big boy words to show all the randoms online how intelligent and thoughtful you are.

Calling my stupid questions "legit"? Are you serious? :oldlol:

EDIT: i'm dying to hear how legalizing animal marriage is a legit question.What business is it of yours if someone wants to marry an animal?

What business is it of yours whether people take crystal meth or not? Why do you get to choose which drugs are ok and which aren't? You are deciding what is and what is not ok based on your personal prejudices and preferences. Legalising weed while maintaining the same policy toward other drugs would be a hypocritical and logically inconsistent reversal of policy that maintains the principle behind the drug war, and only shifts its prejudices. It isn't a change at all really, just the use of a certain drug becoming so widespread that personal prejudices have shifted away from it. It just goes to show how illogically people think, and how incapable they are of thinking outside of the environment that has shaped them.

Why don't you try thinking for a minute instead of flinging childish and desperately unfunny remarks back because you don't have an argument of any substance to reply with ('neckbeard'? - how old are you? jeez..)? The principle is the same with $15 as with $20: if one argues that there are no negative consequences like unemployment from raising the minimum wage to 15/hr, then there is no logical reason that an even higher minimum wage is not justified, and so on.

As for all this nonsense about 'big boy words' and 'essays' one wonders why you would be willing to weigh in on an intellectual topic - one that requires both precise language and certainly a few hundred words to properly explain - if you are so averse to the correct use of language or paragraphs longer than 2 sentences? Amazing how you could be so anti-intellectual, but then so arrogant and adamant when it comes to voicing your ill-informed opinion about an intellectual and theoretical topic.

[oarabbus]

What business is it of yours if someone wants to marry an animal?

What business is it of yours whether people take crystal meth or not? Why do you get to choose which drugs are ok and which aren't? You are deciding what is and what is not ok based on your personal prejudices and preferences. Legalising weed while maintaining the same policy toward other drugs would be a hypocritical and logically inconsistent reversal of policy that maintains the principle behind the drug war, and only shifts its prejudices. It isn't a change at all really, just the use of a certain drug becoming so widespread that personal prejudices have shifted away from it. It just goes to show how illogically people think, and how incapable they are of thinking outside of the environment that has shaped them.

Why don't you try thinking for a minute instead of flinging childish and desperately unfunny remarks back because you don't have an argument of any substance to reply with ('neckbeard'? - how old are you? jeez..)? The principle is the same with $15 as with $20: if one argues that there are no negative consequences like unemployment from raising the minimum wage to 15/hr, then there is no logical reason that an even higher minimum wage is not justified, and so on.

As for all this nonsense about 'big boy words' and 'essays' one wonders why you would be willing to weigh in on an intellectual topic - one that requires both precise language and certainly a few hundred words to properly explain - if you are so averse to the correct use of language or paragraphs longer than 2 sentences? Amazing how you could be so anti-intellectual, but then so arrogant and adamant when it comes to voicing your ill-informed opinion about an intellectual and theoretical topic.

Exactly, that is what I was getting at and what managed to fly over his head despite how obvious it is... that is what GimmeThat asked, why has this question not been answered in 8 pages.

I'm not sure DukeDelonte is actually capable of an intelligent response. You'll just be called a retarded neckbeard writing essays from the basement because while to many of us, posting an intelligent, thought-out response may take a few good minutes, it literally is like an essay to him, possibly requiring hours of his life.

Also wow, the ether in that last paragraph. Not to mention the idiocy of his "crystal meth" argument as if somehow the methamphetamine molecule is inherently bad and evil. Just non-thoughts all around.

[Jailblazers7]

It's not ridiculous to claim that their is some threshold for the min wage where it should not be raised beyond. It might seem the same in principle but I'm sure somebody has estimated the point where the good outweighs the bad and set that as the max point that it should be raised.

You can disagree with the estimate or logic behind it but posing that question is just moving the goalposts.

[oarabbus]

It's not ridiculous to claim that their is some threshold for the min wage where it should not be raised beyond. It might seem the same in principle but I'm sure somebody has estimated the point where the good outweighs the bad and set that as the max point that it should be raised.

You can disagree with the estimate or logic behind it but posing that question is just moving the goalposts.

Come on man. Do you know how common it is for economists to be utterly wrong in their predictions? And yes, there is some threshold which it shouldn't be raised beyond. If you asked someone in the 1950s what the threshold is, they would have likely named something like $1.75. Never in their wildest dreams could they envision a scenario where someone would need to be paid over $2/hr. Even as recently as 2000 we had a minimum wage under $5.

And no, you cannot just "adjust it for inflation" over time since there are different ways to calculate inflation depending on whom you ask. The value of a dollar also fluctuates depending on the location of the country you are looking at, in this case Seattle.

Which is why posing that question isn't moving the goalposts, its crucially related to the topic at hand.

[ballup]

That's why communism sucks ****. Seattle has garbage politics. I really like that place but the politics are horrendous.
Communism /= tyranny

[Jailblazers7]

Come on man. Do you know how common it is for economists to be utterly wrong in their predictions? And yes, there is some threshold which it shouldn't be raised beyond. If you asked someone in the 1950s what the threshold is, they would have likely named something like $1.75. Never in their wildest dreams could they envision a scenario where someone would need to be paid over $2/hr. Even as recently as 2000 we had a minimum wage under $5.

And no, you cannot just "adjust it for inflation" over time since there are different ways to calculate inflation depending on whom you ask. The value of a dollar also fluctuates depending on the location of the country you are looking at, in this case Seattle.

Which is why posing that question isn't moving the goalposts, its crucially related to the topic at hand.

Yeah, the whole debate is about what that sweet spot is for the min wage. But the answer to you question is probably as easy as, "$20 is too high but $15 is ok." Nobody is advocating for $25 so you trying to make someone defend that is just shifting the argument.

[longtime lurker]

:biggums:

All you're doing is sidestepping the question with non-answers or other absurd questions that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Others said that raising the minimum wage will not raise prices or affect the quality of life for those currently making ~$20 an hour and will not affect their lives at all. I disagree, so I posed a simple question. No one has answered it and you've stooped down to calling it a retarded question without a basis in reality when it's actually VERY relevant to the topic at hand.

Why not try to be less of a jerk about it and post some kind of informed, thought out response. We're not talking about crystal meth, marijuana, rocket launchers, gay people, or any of that. We're discussing how raising the minimum wage considerably does (or doesn't) affect both local and broader economies.


Obviously the $50 dollar minimum wage was pushing the argument to absurdity and facetious. If you took that at face value I have no words for you. It's difficult to have an intelligent discussion with someone who's going to get hung up on that. Again: if raising the minimum wage to $15 doesn't affect the prices of goods, why not raise the minimum wage to $20, or $25, or more. Give people a truly living wage.



If you're going to troll get out of this topic, go do that elswhere. Let's not move the goalposts, let's stick to the economic consequences of a minimum wage increase :coleman:

Well as someone said there's a threshold that you can raise it to before there starts to be negative effects on the economy. It's a silly argument that's constantly repeated by people who are against raising minimum wage at any cost. It's as silly as someone asking why companies just don't charge 20 dollars or 50 dollars for a hamburger if they're losing money. I'm sure research has been put into this decision, government isn't just pulling this number out of their ass.

[AKA AAP 23]

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/05/01/3433227/seattle-15-dollar-minimum-wage/

Damn, and this works for waiters as well.

Waiters gonna be making around 25 an hour with tips :eek: :eek: :eek:

Seattle's minimum wage is more than twice your $8/hr job. Kobe fans... :roll:

[eliteballer]

its not that ridiculous when you read over 10~ years

Everyone miss this?

[Dresta]

Well as someone said there's a threshold that you can raise it to before there starts to be negative effects on the economy. It's a silly argument that's constantly repeated by people who are against raising minimum wage at any cost. It's as silly as someone asking why companies just don't charge 20 dollars or 50 dollars for a hamburger if they're losing money. I'm sure research has been put into this decision, government isn't just pulling this number out of their ass.
Oh, poor, deluded fool. That number can only be pulled out of their ass because there is not tangible means of determining a fair minimum wage that doesn't increase unemployment. You raise the minimum wage to $15 and you will get some unemployment, raise it to $20 and you will get extra unemployment. There is no imaginary threshold, something that is determined by a bunch of econometricians in their basements, often using flawed mathematical modelling and a bunch of selective statistics.

There is no such thing as a threshold before which no negative consequences are felt because all jobs worth less than the new minimum wage will be outlawed, shrinking the job market. It is silly to argue that a raise to $15 can have no negative consequences but that a raise to $20 will. The higher you raise it the more negative consequences for jobs, that is the rule.

[MJ23forever]

http://i.imgur.com/k26oQGU.jpg

[secund2nun]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Jsg1K4pyenc/TsyLDaA8jXI/AAAAAAAAAGc/rQ0upw0u9_E/s400/capitalism_kidscomaprison.jpg

[IGOTGAME]

Know who is prob mad. People in Seattle that were making 16 dollar an hour doing some corporate data entry ish that are literally on par with Walmart workers.