Duncan vs Lebron on the All Time list

[sportjames23]

Who you got ranked higher?

[MrC1991]

Duncan right now. I switch him between 7-9 can never really figure out which spot to land him in permanently lol

[TMT]

A three peat probably puts them on equal ground at this point.

[IllegalD]

Both behind Kobe.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Both behind Kobe.

:oldlol:

[r15mohd]

A three peat probably puts them on equal ground at this point.


I'd say Duncan leads right now, but a 3peat for Lebron with 3-FMVPs and he leaps over Duncan confidently

[Frozen1]

Duncan is overrated.

Lost to Manu Ginobili in the olympics. USA had to call Kobe to make sure to not suffer another embarrassment in the olympic games.

[tmacattack33]

If Lebron retired after this year, if he didn't win a ring this year then Duncan would be higher.

But that's not happening. So if Lebron can play at a reasonably expected level for the next 2-3 years, he will pass Duncan on the all-time list.

[cos88]

useless ranking them today. one is 29 other is 38.



fun fact:


lebron points: 23170

duncan points: 24904

[robert_shaww]

Duncan is overrated.

Lost to Manu Ginobili in the olympics. USA had to call Kobe to make sure to not suffer another embarrassment in the olympic games.


I dont want to defend Duncan in thar regard, but....

2004 Olympics

Amare Stoudemire
Tim Duncan
Lebron James
Dwyane Wade
Allen Iverson

And....
Marbury
Marion
Carmelo Anthony



VS


Oberto
Scola
Delfino
Ginobili
Pepe Sanchez


:rolleyes:

[Frozen1]

I dont want to defend Duncan in thar regard, but....

2004 Olympics

Amare Stoudemire
Tim Duncan
Lebron James
Dwyane Wade
Allen Iverson

And....
Marbury
Marion
Carmelo Anthony



VS


Oberto
Scola
Delfino
Ginobili
Pepe Sanchez


:rolleyes:

So you are trying to diss a rookie Lebron when his team had MVP

[MavsSuperFan]

useless ranking them today. one is 29 other is 38.



fun fact:


lebron points: 23170

duncan points: 24904
duncan wasted 4 years in university. his all time numbers are hurt by that

[Cold soul]

Both behind Kobe.

Yup for now anyway.

[SilkkTheShocker]

[QUOTE=Frozen1]So you are trying to diss a rookie Lebron when his team had MVP

[nosfan773]

Nah, he has a way to go

Duncan - 4
Kobe - 2
Bron - 2

[SilkkTheShocker]

Nah, he has a way to go

Duncan - 4
Kobe - 2
Bron - 2

Not really. 4 MVPS and a potential 3rd Finals MVP ties him at worst.

[SCdac]

I got Duncan higher, given how he won, who he won with, and being able to win championships in going through teams with Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Garnett, Nowitzki, Nash, Wallace's, etc. At his peak I'd take him over Lebron at his peak. By the end of Lebron's career, however, it's plausible he could have passed Duncan. Who knows. Both will finish higher than Kobe, for whatever it's worth.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan....he has 4 titles as the best player. His 03 title and level is something Lebron hasn't matched yet.

And his longevity/consistency is pretty much unmatched in NBA history...

Now, Lebron is coming for sure, but it's going to take at least one more title and some great longevity from Lebron.

A title and finals mvp for Lebron this year vaults Lebron way up in all time rankings for me....but I'd still have Duncan slightly over him.

Spurs beat the Heat this year with Duncan playing his normal 17/9/3 quality defense? That gap just grows even bigger...

[IllegalD]

Duncan....he has 4 titles as the best player. His 03 title and level is something Lebron hasn't matched yet.

I keep seeing this nonsense regurgitated over and over again.

Do people forget Tony Parker was Finals MVP in 2007...? :confusedshrug:

[SCdac]

I keep seeing this nonsense regurgitated over and over again.

Do people forget Tony Parker was Finals MVP in 2007...? :confusedshrug:

Duncan was still better. Parker exposed a team with no backcourt in a 4 game sweep, while Duncan finished the year 4th in MVP voting, 3rd in DPOY voting, and lead the Spurs in scoring in both the regular and post season (20 ppg / 22 ppg). Anybody who wasn't born yesterday knew Duncan was still the Spurs best player, was arguably the best player in the league still (between him a few others).

[robert_shaww]

Duncan....he has 4 titles as the best player. His 03 title and level is something Lebron hasn't matched yet.

And his longevity/consistency is pretty much unmatched in NBA history...

Now, Lebron is coming for sure, but it's going to take at least one more title and some great longevity from Lebron.

A title and finals mvp for Lebron this year vaults Lebron way up in all time rankings for me....but I'd still have Duncan slightly over him.

Spurs beat the Heat this year with Duncan playing his normal 17/9/3 quality defense? That gap just grows even bigger...

:rolleyes:

[DMAVS41]

I keep seeing this nonsense regurgitated over and over again.

Do people forget Tony Parker was Finals MVP in 2007...? :confusedshrug:

So what? Are you actually arguing that Parker was the best player on the 07 Spurs?

Paul Pierce win finals MVP in 08...and yet KG was the clear cut best player on those Celtics teams...

Finals MVP does not determine the best player.

I want to know this...do people actually think Parker was the best player on the 07 Spurs?

[SilkkTheShocker]

I keep seeing this nonsense regurgitated over and over again.

Do people forget Tony Parker was Finals MVP in 2007...? :confusedshrug:

Duncan was still the best player on that team. Parker was being guarded by a rookie 2nd round pick that Finals

[IllegalD]

Duncan was still better. Parker exposed a team with no backcourt in a 4 game sweep, while Duncan finished the year 4th in MVP voting, 3rd in DPOY voting, and lead the Spurs in scoring in both the regular and post season (20 ppg / 22 ppg). Anybody who wasn't born yesterday knew Duncan was still the Spurs best player, was arguably the best player in the league still (between him a few others).

Wouldn't the same logic apply then in 2001 when Kobe tore up the Western Conference and was the Lakers best player, and lead the team in PER for the entire postseason, until they got to the Finals where Shaq exposed teams with weak frontcourts? :confusedshrug:

I find it funny the hypocritical double-standards used to measure players.

[kennethgriffin]

Nah, he has a way to go

Duncan - 4
Kobe - 2
Bron - 2


people only give kobe credit for his finals mvp rings

then say duncan deserves all 4 ( even with one being a lockout and another tony parker being finals mvp )


when in reality

kobe did 1000000 times more during the playoffs in 2001 and 2002 than duncan did in 1999 or 2007 ( and ginobili was the best player in the 4 spurs finals wins in 2005 )



kobe 2001 playoffs - 29/7/6 ( and sh*t on prime duncan )
kobe 2002 playoffs - 27/6/5 ( and sh*t on prime duncan )

duncan 1999 playoffs - 23/11/3 ( and beat a raw 19 year old kobe )
duncan 2007 playoffs - 22/11/3 ( kobe in a rebuilding season, didnt even face him )


give me kobes 2001 and 2002 rings where he was dropping 35-40 point games on the best competition out west

[DMAVS41]

Wouldn't the same logic apply then in 2001 when Kobe tore up the Western Conference and was the Lakers best player, and lead the team in PER for the entire postseason, until they got to the Finals where Shaq exposed teams with weak frontcourts? :confusedshrug:

I find it funny the hypocritical double-standards used to measure players.

What?

Shaq averaged 29/15/3 56% TS in the Western playoffs in 01

Kobe averaged 32/7/6 57% TS in the Western playoffs in 01


And Shaq was the main thing the opposing teams tried to stop. You really acting like there was a gap between Shaq and Kobe in the Western playoffs? Please...

[Kukoc]

Tim Duncan

[SCdac]

Wouldn't the same logic apply then in 2001 when Kobe tore up the Western Conference and was the Lakers best player, and lead the team in PER for the entire postseason, until they got to the Finals where Shaq exposed teams with weak frontcourts? :confusedshrug:

I find it funny the hypocritical double-standards used to measure players.

You mean the year Shaq finished 3rd in MVP voting behind only AI and Duncan?

I thought it was obviously Shaq's team, obvious to anybody watching at the time, but he had superstar help who could take over.... you're indirectly comparing Kobe Bryant to Tony Parker.

Again, in the 2007 playoffs Duncan lead the Spurs in scoring, rebounding, shot blocking, Free Throw attempts, FG% (amongst those who took a significant amount of shots), and Usage-%. Definitely was the Spurs best/most important player.

[Jlamb47]

Ducan right now but Lebron got like 10 years ahead of him so im sure hel pass him up

[IllegalD]

You mean the year Shaq finished 3rd in MVP voting behind only AI and Duncan?

I thought it was obviously Shaq's team, obvious to anybody watching at the time, but he had superstar help who could take over.... you're indirectly comparing Kobe Bryant to Tony Parker.

Again, in the 2007 playoffs Duncan lead the Spurs in scoring, rebounding, shot blocking, Free Throw attempts, FG% (amongst those who took a significant amount of shots), and Usage-%. Definitely was the Spurs best/most important player.

What about the weak-ass competition Duncan has faced in the Finals? (same criticism I hear from Kobe-haters to devalue his rings)

:confusedshrug:

Duncan's rings have come against: the 99 Knicks, the 2003 Nets, the 2005 Pistons (only worthy opponent, still not better than the 2010 Celtics), and the 2007 Cavs.

:roll:

40 years from now no one will remember Duncan except "hardcore NBA fans", but everyone will still be talking about Kobe. The greatest player of his era/generation as said by Wade, Durant, Magic, Jordan, West, etc, etc.

[robert_shaww]

Wouldn't the same logic apply then in 2001 when Kobe tore up the Western Conference and was the Lakers best player, and lead the team in PER for the entire postseason, until they got to the Finals where Shaq exposed teams with weak frontcourts? :confusedshrug:

I find it funny the hypocritical double-standards used to measure players.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[SCdac]

What about the weak-ass competition Duncan has faced in the Finals? (same criticism I hear from Kobe-haters to devalue his rings)

:confusedshrug:

Duncan's rings have come against: the 99 Knicks, the 2003 Nets, the 2005 Pistons (only worthy opponent, still not better than the 2010 Celtics), and the 2007 Cavs.

:roll:

40 years from now no one will remember Duncan except "hardcore NBA fans", but everyone will still be talking about Kobe. The greatest player of his era/generation as said by Wade, Durant, Magic, Jordan, West, etc, etc.

Eh, whatever helps you sleep at night...

[robert_shaww]

TODAY:

Lebron James 10

[Cold soul]

Eh, whatever helps you sleep at night...

Sadly, it's most likely true you ask most casual NBA fans. Do you know who Tim Duncan is? Most won't which is a real shame most don't care for his dull boring personality. Nobody cares about Duncan unless you're hardcore NBA fan.

[SCdac]

Sadly, it's most likely true you ask most casual NBA fans. Do you know who Tim Duncan is? Most won't which is a real shame most don't care for his dull boring personality. Nobody cares about Duncan unless you're hardcore NBA fan.

If you were talking with an NBA fan who actually didn't know who Duncan is (never even heard of him), and they're trying to tell you who the best players to ever play the game are, would you take said persons opinion of the game seriously? ... No? Then why should we be adapting our rankings around people who are essentially clueless?

I get what you're trying to say, but simply put, popularity isn't the end all be all. If it was, we'd all being treating Yao Ming like a sure-fire HOF'er and legend based on his immense popularity. Didn't dude make the All Star game in 2011 playing only 5 regular season games?

[Cold soul]

If you were talking with an NBA fan who actually didn't know who Duncan is (never even heard of him), and they're trying to tell you who the best players to ever play the game are, would you take said persons opinion of the game seriously? ... No? Then why should we be adapting our rankings around people who are essentially clueless?

I get what you're trying to say, but simply put, popularity isn't the end all be all. If it was, we'd all being treating Yao Ming like a sure-fire HOF'er and legend based on his immense popularity. Didn't dude make the All Star game in 2011 playing only 5 regular season games?

No of course not. The point being Duncan will be all but forgotten in 20-40 years time from now due to fans not caring about him aside from Spur fans and hardcore NBA fan base. You bring up MJ, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron to any casul fan on the street more than likely they will know who they are, and what accomplishments they accomplished.

[SCdac]

No of course not. The point being Duncan will be all but forgotten in 20-40 years time from now due to fans not caring about him aside from Spur fans and hardcore fan base. You bring MJ, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron to any casul fan on the street more than likely they will know who they are.

If written history, internet, youtube, media, news reports, books, etc. still exist in 20-40 years I'm sure Duncan will still be remembered properly as the GOAT power forward or one of the best players ever. As far as being remembered, I guess we should knock Duncan for never being in a widely publicized rape trial? :confusedshrug:

[Cold soul]

If written history, internet, youtube, media, news reports, books, etc. still exist in 20-40 years I'm sure Duncan will still be remembered properly as the GOAT power forward or one of the best players ever. As far as being remembered, I guess we should knock Duncan for never being in a widely publicized rape trial? :confusedshrug:

Duncan will be forgotton legend of his era more than likely. It's sad but it is what it is...There's no need to take a shot at Kobe here but whatever makes you feel better about yourself. Go right ahead.

[DMAVS41]

If written history, internet, youtube, media, news reports, books, etc. still exist in 20-40 years I'm sure Duncan will still be remembered properly as the GOAT power forward or one of the best players ever. As far as being remembered, I guess we should knock Duncan for never being in a widely publicized rape trial? :confusedshrug:

This.

Nobody has forgotten about Havlicek...

Hell, we still see Pettit's name pop up all the time about the all time power forwards.

In 20 years...people might actually view Duncan as better than they do now because all the emotion of players like Kobe, Shaq, Lebron, Durant, Dirk, Garnett...etc. will have died down and people will look more to the facts.

And the facts are on the side of Duncan. He's a clear cut top 8 player of all time and his longevity is entering places pretty much nobody other than Malone and Kareem have gone.

He was elite (first team all nba as a rookie) in year 1, had a fantastic 12 year prime...and then has aged very well since as a borderline all nba player for years...with a spike year in 13 at first team all nba and all defense.

He's once again around the 20th or so best player in the league and he's one of the most important players on a team that just had the best record in the league and was the odds on favorite to win the title entering the playoffs.

People will not shrug shit like this off. 20 years might go by and more and more people that know the game might rank Duncan as high as I do currently...which is 4th all time.

[Kukoc]

LeBron needs to win a chip with the Cavs

[mehyaM24]

lebron and its not very close

while great, you can make the case that duncan is overrated. he's been surrounded with elite help and carried by parker,gino for YEARS now.

another title and lebron is top 3 for sure. 4 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPs is already enough to trump duncan's resume though.

[mehyaM24]

40 years from now no one will remember Duncan except "hardcore NBA fans"[/quote]

exactly. people will remember the SPURS franchise being great,not duncan(or not him exclusively)

[The-Legend-24]

The guy that actually defended his title.

[rmt]

lebron and its not very close

while great, you can make the case that duncan is overrated. he's been surrounded with elite help and carried by parker,gino for YEARS now.

another title and lebron is top 3 for sure. 4 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPs is already enough to trump duncan's resume though.

Funny that you should talk about ELITE HELP. Duncan won a ring with 2nd year Parker and rookie Manu - all his rings were won without an all-nba team mate. Lebron bailed on Cavs to join all-stars Wade and Bosh in order to win a ring.

[Leroy Jetson]

The guy that actually defended his title.
If Duncan had played his entire career in the weak ass East you better believe he would have won multiple titles in a row. During his prime he would have made the finals more years than not.

[aj1987]

Duncan....he has 4 titles as the best player. His 03 title and level is something Lebron hasn't matched yet.

In '12, 30/10/6/2/1 on 58% TS, while being the team leader in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks.


And his longevity/consistency is pretty much unmatched in NBA history...
Karl Malone, John Stockton, KAJ, and Kobe, off the top of my head.


A title and finals mvp for Lebron this year vaults Lebron way up in all time rankings for me....but I'd still have Duncan slightly over him.
4 MVP's, 3 Rings, 3 FMVP's, and a bunch of other records, and you'd still have Duncan over him? That's just retarded.


Spurs beat the Heat this year with Duncan playing his normal 17/9/3 quality defense? That gap just grows even bigger...
Not even close. If that's the case, you should have Wade at least 10 spots over Dirk.

[DMAVS41]

In '12, 30/10/6/2/1 on 58% TS, while being the team leader in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks.


Karl Malone, John Stockton, KAJ, and Kobe, off the top of my head.


4 MVP's, 3 Rings, 3 FMVP's, and a bunch of other records, and you'd still have Duncan over him? That's just retarded.


Not even close. If that's the case, you should have Wade at least 10 spots over Dirk.

Lebron in 12 was very impressive, but Duncan's run in 03 was better in my opinion. 25/15/5/1/3 58% TS and a level of defense Lebron can't touch...

Stockton and Kobe? No for sure to Stockton...Duncan is on another level than him as a player.

Kobe? Nah...Kobe took 3 years to really become relevant...and now missed the playoffs back to back years and didn't play at all this year. Duncan wins on longevity there pretty clearly now.

I don't put as much weight on MVP's and those "records" as you do...But even so, Duncan has 2 MVP's, 4 titles, 3 finals MVP's...and a bunch of records. On paper the legacy stuff is a toss up when you factor in Duncan's longevity


Wade? Hell no...Wade should still be in his prime. We aren't judging Duncan on superstar prime standards. This is old as **** Duncan in year 17. Totally different situations...

[NumberSix]

In '12, 30/10/6/2/1 on 58% TS, while being the team leader in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks.


Karl Malone, John Stockton, KAJ, and Kobe, off the top of my head.


4 MVP's, 3 Rings, 3 FMVP's, and a bunch of other records, and you'd still have Duncan over him? That's just retarded.


Not even close. If that's the case, you should have Wade at least 10 spots over Dirk.
DMAVS41 is one of the better posters. His only flaw is he is utterly incapable of being objective about either Dirk or especially LeBron.

[mehyaM24]

Funny that you should talk about ELITE HELP. Duncan won a ring with 2nd year Parker and rookie Manu - all his rings were won without an all-nba team mate. Lebron bailed on Cavs to join all-stars Wade and Bosh in order to win a ring.

...and? did people not watch lebrons run last year? wade and bosh, his supposed "elite help", were garbage. mere role players.

meanwhile,SA made the finals last year with duncan shooting 47%, which further proves my point: years from now, people wont remember duncan for his "greatness".....more like the spurs TEAM as a well-oiled machine with the best coach this side of phil jackson.

[houston]

Lebron will rank higher than Duncan when it all said and done.

[T_L_P]

lebron and its not very close

while great, you can make the case that duncan is overrated. he's been surrounded with elite help and carried by parker,gino for YEARS now.

another title and lebron is top 3 for sure. 4 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPs is already enough to trump duncan's resume though.

LeBron after 10 years: 2 rings, 2 Finals MVPs, 4 regular season MVPs

Duncan after 10 years: 3 rings, 3 Finals MVPs, 2 regular season MVPs

Duncan's first 10 years beat LeBron's first 10, then we're adding Duncan's extra 8, where he won another ring as the man.

[JellyBean]

I got LeBron higher than Duncan on my list of all-time greats.

[DMAVS41]

LeBron after 10 years: 2 rings, 2 Finals MVPs, 4 regular season MVPs

Duncan after 10 years: 3 rings, 3 Finals MVPs, 2 regular season MVPs

Duncan's first 10 years beat LeBron's first 10, then we're adding Duncan's extra 8, where he won another ring as the man.

Wasn't 07 Duncan's 10th year?

[T_L_P]

...and? did people not watch lebrons run last year? wade and bosh, his supposed "elite help", were garbage. mere role players.

meanwhile,SA made the finals last year with duncan shooting 47%, which further proves my point: years from now, people wont remember duncan for his "greatness".....more like the spurs TEAM as a well-oiled machine with the best coach this side of phil jackson.

The Spurs post-Duncan's prime are a completely different team. Back in the day the team was Tim Duncan.

[mehyaM24]

LeBron after 10 years: 2 rings, 2 Finals MVPs, 4 regular season MVPs

Duncan after 10 years: 3 rings, 3 Finals MVPs, 2 regular season MVPs

Duncan's first 10 years beat LeBron's first 10, then we're adding Duncan's extra 8, where he won another ring as the man.

4 MVPs and 2 FMVPs >>>> 2 MVPs, 3 FMVPs

lebron is also statistically superior

[T_L_P]

Wasn't 07 Duncan's 10th year?

Yeah, it was. :facepalm

Further proves my point, I guess.

[T_L_P]

4 MVPs and 2 FMVPs >>>> 2 MVPs, 3 FMVPs

lebron is also statistically superior

4 rings as the main guy > 2

4 + 3 + 2 = 9

4 + 2 + 2 = 8

Timmy wins.

[mehyaM24]

4 rings as the main guy > 2

4 + 3 + 2 = 9

4 + 2 + 2 = 8

Timmy wins.

duncan doesn't have 4 rings as the main guy

parker was finals mvp, and outplayed duncan in the 2007 finals

4 MVPS and 2 FMVPs with better individual production >>>>> 2 MVPs, 3 FMVPs with inferior production

FACTS

[DMAVS41]

duncan doesn't have 4 rings as the main guy

parker was finals mvp, and outplayed duncan in the 2007 finals

4 MVPS and 2 FMVPs with better individual production >>>>> 2 MVPs, 3 FMVPs with inferior production

FACTS

What?

Through 10 years;

4 MVP's, 2 titles, and 2 finals MVP's for Lebron. A total of 8.

2 MVP's, 4 titles, and 3 finals MVP's for Duncan. A total of 9.

Even on that absurdly simplistic and narrow criteria, Duncan wins through the first 10 years of their careers....

:confusedshrug:

[T_L_P]

duncan doesn't have 4 rings as the main guy

parker was finals mvp, and outplayed duncan in the 2007 finals

4 MVPS and 2 FMVPs with better individual production >>>>> 2 MVPs, 3 FMVPs with inferior production

FACTS

2007 Playoffs:

Duncan: 22/12/3/3/.556 TS%
Parker: 21/3/6/1/.523 TS%

Duncan anchored the Spurs' defense too.

In the Suns series (aka the real Finals):

Duncan: 27/14/1/4/.596 TS%
Parker: 21/3/6/1/.490 TS%

Yeah, Parker was the man.

LeBron had better individual production, but necessarily a bigger impact. You seem to forget that Duncan is one of the greatest defenders ever. LeBron never did anything close on that end of the floor.

[mehyaM24]

What?

Through 10 years;

4 MVP's, 2 titles, and 2 finals MVP's for Lebron. A total of 8.

2 MVP's, 4 titles, and 3 finals MVP's for Duncan. A total of 9.

Even on that absurdly simplistic and narrow criteria, Duncan wins through the first 10 years of their careers....

:confusedshrug:

robert horry has more rings than kobe. so what?

lebron is just flat-out better. better offensive player. better numbers. more mvps. another title and it will be clear-cut

[DMAVS41]

robert horry has more rings than kobe. so what?

lebron is just flat-out better. better offensive player. better numbers. more mvps. another ring and it will be clear-cut.

So you lose that argument and you just shift by the horry vs kobe crap...really?

Lebron is absolutely a flat out better offensive player...and he does have more MVP's.

But I could flip that around and say Nash has more MVP's than Kobe...does that make him better? To use your words...so what?

Duncan is an elite defensive force...especially throughout this first 12 years in the league.


Another ring this year for Lebron would not make it clear-cut in the all time rankings...although one could definitely rank Lebron over Duncan and I wouldn't really argue with it at all.

But Lebron needs 1 more title and a few more years of proven longevity to pass Duncan for me.

[mehyaM24]

So you lose that argument and you just shift by the horry vs kobe crap...really?

Lebron is absolutely a flat out better offensive player...and he does have more MVP's.

But I could flip that around and say Nash has more MVP's than Kobe...does that make him better? To use your words...so what?

Duncan is an elite defensive force...especially throughout this first 12 years in the league.


Another ring this year for Lebron would not make it clear-cut in the all time rankings...although one could definitely rank Lebron over Duncan and I wouldn't really argue with it at all.

But Lebron needs 1 more title and a few more years of proven longevity to pass Duncan for me.

how did i lose the argument? ok duncan has more titles,but he also had much better help. those are team acheivements....

with the way you idiots rank players,lebron will only need one more ring and it'll be clear ****ing cut.

as players, 4 MVPs and 2 FMVPs with better ****ing stats....already trumps anything duncan has/did. reality.

[dubeta]

4 rings as the main guy > 2

4 + 3 + 2 = 9

4 + 2 + 2 = 8

Timmy wins.

LeBron is a career 27/7/7 player

Duncan is a 20/11/3

LeBron much more statistically dominant

Duncan has won 4 rings while having a great team for 17 years, LeBron only had a great team for 4 years and has 2 rings while possibly getting 3rd this year. (This includes Duncan having a HOF coach like Popvich)

LeBron sh*ts on Duncan on every advanced metric, such as Win Shares and PER

LeBron has won 4 MVP's in 5 years


Yes, LeBron choked in 2011, but Duncan lost to an 8th seed as the 1st seed in 2011, and without question choked in 2013 finals, scoring only 5 points second half of Game 6 and missing an open layup in Game 7 last minute.

We understand your love affair for Duncan, but please dont let it blind you to the obvious truth. To even make an argument for Duncan over LeBron as an overall basketball player is laughable

While you can make a case for Duncan ahead of LeBron in terms of all time rankings, the fact that LeBron is 9 years younger than Duncan and has a comparable resume, with having a much more inferior supporting cast than Duncan for the majority of his career, shows you how much better LeBron is

[mehyaM24]

LeBron is a career 27/7/7 player

Duncan is a 20/11/3

LeBron much more statistically dominant

Duncan has won 4 rings while having a great team for 17 years, LeBron only had a great team for 4 years and has 2 rings while possibly getting 3rd this year. (This includes Duncan having a HOF coach like Popvich)

LeBron sh*ts on Duncan on every advanced metric, such as Win Shares and PER

LeBron has won 4 MVP's in 5 years


Yes, LeBron choked in 2011, but Duncan lost to an 8th seed as the 1st seed in 2011, and without question choked in 2013 finals, scoring only 5 points second half of Game 6 and missing an open layup in Game 7 last minute.

We understand your love affair for Duncan, but please dont let it blind you to the obvious truth. To even make an argument for Duncan over LeBron as an overall basketball player is laughable

While you can make a case for Duncan ahead of LeBron in terms of all time rankings, the fact that LeBron is 9 years younger than Duncan and has a comparable resume, with having a much more inferior supporting cast than Duncan for the majority of his career, shows you how much better LeBron is

well said bro. i swear ish has the dumbest ****ing fans.

[DMAVS41]

how did i lose the argument? ok duncan has more titles,but he also had much better help. those are team acheivements....

with the way you idiots rank players,lebron will only need one more ring and it'll be clear ****ing cut.

as players, 4 MVPs and 2 FMVPs with better ****ing stats....already trumps anything duncan has/did. reality.

you were the one counting up rings, mvp's, and finals mvp's...and Duncan has more.

Meh...slipperly slope about the help issue. Duncan won a title in 03 with a similar level of help that Lebron had in 09 and 10...

how I rank players? I don't actually put much emphasis on that...you were the one bringing it up!

[dubeta]

well said bro. i swear ish has the dumbest ****ing fans.

Thank you bro, much appreciated :cheers:

[DMAVS41]

LeBron is a career 27/7/7 player

Duncan is a 20/11/3

LeBron much more statistically dominant

Duncan has won 4 rings while having a great team for 17 years, LeBron only had a great team for 4 years and has 2 rings while possibly getting 3rd this year. (This includes Duncan having a HOF coach like Popvich)

LeBron sh*ts on Duncan on every advanced metric, such as Win Shares and PER

LeBron has won 4 MVP's in 5 years


Yes, LeBron choked in 2011, but Duncan lost to an 8th seed as the 1st seed in 2011, and without question choked in 2013 finals, scoring only 5 points second half of Game 6 and missing an open layup in Game 7 last minute.

We understand your love affair for Duncan, but please dont let it blind you to the obvious truth. To even make an argument for Duncan over LeBron as an overall basketball player is laughable

While you can make a case for Duncan ahead of LeBron in terms of all time rankings, the fact that LeBron is 9 years younger than Duncan and has a comparable resume, with having a much more inferior supporting cast than Duncan for the majority of his career, shows you how much better LeBron is

March 2014...

[mehyaM24]

you were the one counting up rings, mvp's, and finals mvp's...and Duncan has more.

Meh...slipperly slope about the help issue. Duncan won a title in 03 with a similar level of help that Lebron had in 09 and 10...

how I rank players? I don't actually put much emphasis on that...you were the one bringing it up!

i also said even without that extra title,lebron is already "greater"

as far as win percentages go, the spurs have been the most consistent franchise of the 2000s. they are always contending and it isnt just because of duncan.

remove team achievements and lebron, in every way measurable, is superior. just a better player. more impact and brings more to the table.

[houston]

Duncan came into the NBA playing with all-nba MVP caliber player. Won multi championships with that player.

[dubeta]

i also said even without that extra title,lebron is already "greater"

as far as win percentages go, the spurs have been the most consistent franchise of the 2000s. they are always contending and it isnt just because of duncan.

remove team achievements and lebron, in every way measurable, is superior. just a better player. more impact and brings more to the table.

IMO the only players you can argue over LeBron as better overall basketball players are Jordan and Shaq (peak)

[mehyaM24]

IMO the only players you can argue over LeBron as better overall basketball players are Jordan and Shaq (peak)

agreed. though i think kareem is up there too

shaq is my favorite player of alltime :rockon:

[T_L_P]

LeBron is a career 27/7/7 player

Duncan is a 20/11/3

LeBron much more statistically dominant

Duncan has won 4 rings while having a great team for 17 years, LeBron only had a great team for 4 years and has 2 rings while possibly getting 3rd this year. (This includes Duncan having a HOF coach like Popvich)

LeBron sh*ts on Duncan on every advanced metric, such as Win Shares and PER

LeBron has won 4 MVP's in 5 years


Yes, LeBron choked in 2011, but Duncan lost to an 8th seed as the 1st seed in 2011, and without question choked in 2013 finals, scoring only 5 points second half of Game 6 and missing an open layup in Game 7 last minute.

We understand your love affair for Duncan, but please dont let it blind you to the obvious truth. To even make an argument for Duncan over LeBron as an overall basketball player is laughable

While you can make a case for Duncan ahead of LeBron in terms of all time rankings, the fact that LeBron is 9 years younger than Duncan and has a comparable resume, with having a much more inferior supporting cast than Duncan for the majority of his career, shows you how much better LeBron is

Tell me: did you watch basketball from 2000-2003? There are only a handful of players who could have won with Duncan's supporting cast, and LeBron is not one of them (the dominance on both ends alone). And this is the stacked 2000s West, not the 2010 East.

Also, Duncan didn't choke in 2013. 19/11 at 37-years-old is choking now? :wtf:

LeBron's current resume is not greater than Duncan's, and Duncan built 90% of his legacy in his first ten years, so stop assuming LeBron is gonna continue to dominate.

Duncan > LeBron right now.

[DMAVS41]

i also said even without that extra title,lebron is already "greater"

as far as win percentages go, the spurs have been the most consistent franchise of the 2000s. they are always contending and it isnt just because of duncan.

remove team achievements and lebron, in every way measurable, is superior. just a better player. more impact and brings more to the table.

Well, I just disagree with this.

Prime Duncan in his first 12 years was a two way force we don't see very often. Lebron started to defend well around 08 or 09 as a player and he's a very good defender, but he is nowhere near the level of defensive force Duncan was

Duncan was anchoring elite defenses every single year of his career from the jump all the way through 08. They were never outside of the top 3 in defense from 98 through 08...

But anyway, most agree Lebron is obviously on that Duncan level as a player over the first 11 seasons....or better. I don't really have a problem either way. It's just that Duncan has 17 quality years in the NBA at this point. His longevity is all time great. Nobody is arguing Duncan over Lebron solely on prime vs prime....it's always the longevity angle.

For me...I'd like to see Lebron win another title though. Especially after the 11 meltdown...hard to put any player, even Lebron, over Duncan after the biggest collapse of a superstar ever with him winning only 2 titles playing in the worst conference ever with as good or better team than everyone else in the league.

Just me though...

[rmt]

Duncan came into the NBA playing with all-nba MVP caliber player. Won multi championships with that player.

C'mon, now. DRob was a 38 year old with a bad back playing 23 mins in 2003.

[tpols]

Duncan was battling peak shaq/kobe/garnett/dirk for MVPs while Lebron is battling Derrick Rose/Dwight one year and then Durant with no other challengers in the next.. MVP argument is weak. Duncan better overall package plus no choke.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan was battling peak shaq/kobe/garnett/dirk for MVPs while Lebron is battling Derrick Rose/Dwight one year and then Durant with no other challengers in the next.. MVP argument is weak. Duncan better overall package plus no choke.

Yea, really good point.

Tallying up MVP's during the KG/Shaq/Kobe/Duncan/Dirk era from like 99 through 08 was so much harder.

And that isn't even counting Nash got his two...while clearly being worse than all of those guys. And Iverson and Malone got one each as well. 99 through 08 has to remain the toughest era to win a MVP award. Just so many different top 20 or so all time greats in their primes and peaks...and then the Nash anomaly for 2 of those years as well. Damn...never even really thought about that...

Anyway, saying Lebron is by default better than Duncan because of MVP's is a terrible argument to begin with...regardless of circumstances.

[dubeta]

Tell me: did you watch basketball from 2000-2003? There are only a handful of players who could have won with Duncan's supporting cast, and LeBron is not one of them (the dominance on both ends alone). And this is the stacked 2000s West, not the 2010 East.

Also, Duncan didn't choke in 2013. 19/11 at 37-years-old is choking now? :wtf:

LeBron's current resume is not greater than Duncan's, and Duncan built 90% of his legacy in his first ten years, so stop assuming LeBron is gonna continue to dominate.

Duncan > LeBron right now.

Your argument is weak as it is a misinterpretation of my argument in order to strengthen your very weak one.

You cannot compare LeBron winning with Duncan's supporting cast, as the cast caters around a player's strengths. Obviously Duncan's post game and post defense complements the Spurs well. You can make the same argument for Duncan. Does Duncan win win LeBron's supporting cast in 2012 and 2013? An injured Wade and inconsistent Bosh?

There's no way Duncan can deal with the athleticism of OKC in 2012 the way LeBron can, defending Durant on the perimeter, and playing point forward on offence.

Also , in 2013 Wade was averaging 15 ppg in the playoffs and Bosh only 12 ppg. LeBron had to defend 1-5 at times, while scoring 25+ in the playoffs. Could Duncan lead Miami past Indiana with Hibbert and West guarding him in the post, while Wade was inconsistent?

With regards to choking, I was talking about key, second half play, what does using overall stats have to do with it? LeBron averaged 18/7/7 on 47% shooting in 2011 Finals which is stats 95% of the league cannot average in the finals, but people still said he choked

yes Duncan built his legacy in the first 10 years, but Duncan came in 4 years older than LeBron, meaning LeBron has 4 more years to go to reach Duncan's age after Duncans first 10

And I never said LeBrons resume was greater, I just said it was comparable to Duncan who is 9 years older while having an infinitely better supporting cast and head coach than Lebron had for 7 years.

Yes Duncan is slightly ahead of LeBron all time, but please dont start to make an argument for Duncan being a better overall basketball player as it would be a very pathetic and childish attempt.

[DMAVS41]

Your argument is weak as it is a misinterpretation of my argument in order to strengthen your very weak one.

You cannot compare LeBron winning with Duncan's supporting cast, as the cast caters around a player's stregths. Obviously Duncan's post game and post defense complements the Spurs well. You can make the same argument for Duncan. Does Duncan win win LeBron's supporting cast in 2012 and 2013? An injured Wade and inconsistent Bosh?

There's no way Duncan can deal with the athleticism of OKC in 2012 the way LeBron can, defending Durant on the perimeter, and playing point forward on offense.

Also , in 2013 Wade was averaging 15 ppg in the playoffs and Bosh only 12 ppg. LeBron had to defend 1-5 at times, while scoring 25+ in the playoffs. Could Duncan lead Miami past Indiana with Hibbert and West guarding him in the post, while Wade was inconsistent?

With regards to choking, I was talking about key, second half play, what does using overall stats have to do with it? LeBron averaged 18/7/7 on 47% shooting in 2011 Finals which is stats 95% of the league cannot average in the finals, but people still said he choked

yes Duncan built his legacy in the first 10 years, but Duncan came in 4 years older than LeBron, meaning LeBron has 4 more years to go to reach Duncan's age after Duncans first 10

And I never said LeBrons resume was greater, I just said it was comparable to Duncan who is 9 years older while having an infinitely better supporting cast and head coach than Lebron had for 7 years.

Yes Duncan is slightly ahead of LeBron all time, but please dont start to make an argument for Duncan being a better overall basketball player as it would be a very pathetic and childish attempt.


Well...all the evidence says yes.

Duncan won in 03. With a Spurs team very similar in overall strength to the 09 and 10 Cavs...and probably just worse than the 13 Heat...certainly worse than the 12 Heat.

Duncan has proven that.

You could also flip it. What evidence supports Duncan not winning in the heart of his prime with a team as loaded as the 11 Heat? Having to play a single star Mavs team in the finals????

[tpols]

Your argument is weak as it is a misinterpretation of my argument in order to strengthen your very weak one.

You cannot compare LeBron winning with Duncan's supporting cast, as the cast caters around a player's strengths. Obviously Duncan's post game and post defense complements the Spurs well. You can make the same argument for Duncan. Does Duncan win win LeBron's supporting cast in 2012 and 2013? An injured Wade and inconsistent Bosh?

There's no way Duncan can deal with the athleticism of OKC in 2012 the way LeBron can, defending Durant on the perimeter, and playing point forward on offence.

Also , in 2013 Wade was averaging 15 ppg in the playoffs and Bosh only 12 ppg. LeBron had to defend 1-5 at times, while scoring 25+ in the playoffs. Could Duncan lead Miami past Indiana with Hibbert and West guarding him in the post, while Wade was inconsistent?

With regards to choking, I was talking about key, second half play, what does using overall stats have to do with it? LeBron averaged 18/7/7 on 47% shooting in 2011 Finals which is stats 95% of the league cannot average in the finals, but people still said he choked

yes Duncan built his legacy in the first 10 years, but Duncan came in 4 years older than LeBron, meaning LeBron has 4 more years to go to reach Duncan's age after Duncans first 10

And I never said LeBrons resume was greater, I just said it was comparable to Duncan who is 9 years older while having an infinitely better supporting cast and head coach than Lebron had for 7 years.

Yes Duncan is slightly ahead of LeBron all time, but please dont start to make an argument for Duncan being a better overall basketball player as it would be a very pathetic and childish attempt.

2012? When Wade was still having 40 pt games in critical spots? Where Wade was still an elite 23 ppg player in the Finals and could potentially score even more with Duncan on his team in place of lebron since he'd have way more opportunity to handle the ball?

2013? When the Heat didnt face a 50 win team til the Finals? And that's when Wade coincidently started to play as well or better than any of Duncan's teammates ever have once they reached legitamate competition...

Any version of Duncan is winning at least 2 titles from 2011 to 2013 w/ that cast.. Wade always gets up when it matters and would be a much better fit with duncan than bran.

[HurricaneKid]

I dont want to defend Duncan in thar regard, but....

2004 Olympics

Amare Stoudemire
Tim Duncan
Lebron James
Dwyane Wade
Allen Iverson

And....
Marbury
Marion
Carmelo Anthony

:rolleyes:

You do realize LeBron got significantly less run than Richard Freaking Jefferson in 04 right?

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Duncan was battling peak shaq/kobe/garnett/dirk for MVPs while Lebron is battling Derrick Rose/Dwight one year and then Durant with no other challengers in the next.. MVP argument is weak. Duncan better overall package plus no choke.
duncan is a HUGE choker wtf:biggums: :biggums:

[HurricaneKid]

2013? ... the Finals? And that's when Wade coincidently started to play as well or better than any of Duncan's teammates ever...


Wade was like -40 in the Finals. Before G7 the media said he shouldn't even get minutes.

But he was playing better than "any of Duncan's teammates ever"?

Like when Parker won the FMVP 24.5/5/3.3 on .595 TS%??

[tpols]

duncan is a HUGE choker wtf:biggums: :biggums:
if youre talking about last year Duncan just isnt as potent offensively as Lebron is.. his loss is on his lack of offensive ability in old age than legit choking imo

[tpols]

Wade was like -40 in the Finals. Before G7 the media said he shouldn't even get minutes.

But he was playing better than "any of Duncan's teammates ever"?

Like when Parker won the FMVP 24.5/5/3.3 on .595 TS%??

against pathetic competition??

Wade stepped up when the Heat were getting their asses handed to them against a great team. Parker stepped up against one of the most pathetic finals opponents ever.. I love parker hes one of my favorite players, but wades a notch better in 2013 Finals given the circumstances to me.

[DMAVS41]

Why do people continue to put so much emphasis on what Parker did in the 07 finals?

It was a joke series and a sweep. The Spurs could have won that series spotting the Cavs 10 points every single game to start.

:facepalm

[Black and White]

Duncan is still ahead at the moment, LeBron still has a lot of time to surpass him.

[dubeta]

2012? When Wade was still having 40 pt games in critical spots? Where Wade was still an elite 23 ppg player in the Finals and could potentially score even more with Duncan on his team in place of lebron since he'd have way more opportunity to handle the ball?

2013? When the Heat didnt face a 50 win team til the Finals? And that's when Wade coincidently started to play as well or better than any of Duncan's teammates ever have once they reached legitamate competition...

Any version of Duncan is winning at least 2 titles from 2011 to 2013 w/ that cast.. Wade always gets up when it matters and would be a much better fit with duncan than bran.

LMAO wade had 1 40 point game after Heat were already up 3-2, other than that he was definately below par for D Wade. Remember, the perimeter defenders are focused mainly on LeBron, no LeBron means that they are constantly focused on Wade, does he put up the same numbers then?

In 2013 Pacers had 49 wins, and they would have in all likely hood got 50, but they only played 81 games that year

Duncan winning in 2011? LOL so Duncan would be able to beat Boston, and close out Chicago which was a series were Wade was struggling? People just look at the finals to justify others winning in LeBrons place, but fail to realize what Lebron did to get them there

Does Duncan do this? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rxU9s2TqDc

Or this?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgLMI784M4E


In 2012 Duncan would magically be able to guard Durant the way Lebron did? Or be able to run the offence to create shots for the shooters the way Lebron can? Dont mistake me, Duncan would get his numbers, but Durant could go off on Miller/Battier whoever Miami puts on him. The same Durant that backdoor swept Duncan that same year FYI

And no way Duncan can suddenly pull the Aging Heat with Wade and Bosh a shell of themselves past Indiana in 2013, especially when Hibbert and West can both key in on Duncan at once.

I'm not trying to hate on Duncan, he is an all time great post player with a great resume, he's just not able to impact a game like LeBron, is it that hard to understand? :confusedshrug:

[Relinquish]

LeBron needs to win a chip with the Cavs

:facepalm

[tpols]

Just gonna respond to the few main points..


LMAO wade had 1 40 point game after Heat were already up 3-2, other than that he was definately below par for D Wade. Remember, the perimeter defenders are focused mainly on LeBron, no LeBron means that they are constantly focused on Wade, does he put up the same numbers then?

The perimeter defenders were focused mainly on Lebron true.. but Duncan in the post always commanded a double as well. And he's one of the best pick and roll/pop players ever + he can facilitate from the high post.

When Lebron and Wade play together they take turns attacking the defense. It's not like Lebron isos all the time and commands doubles.. hes running a PnR most of the time and working off that while Wade stands idle(or vise versa). With Duncan and Wade the relationship would be more in sync. You couldnt double Wade because youd be leaving duncan wide open.. or one of miami's great 3pt shooters.. you lose either way.




Duncan winning in 2011? LOL so Duncan would be able to beat Boston, and close out Chicago which was a series were Wade was struggling? People just look at the finals to justify others winning in LeBrons place, but fail to realize what Lebron did to get them there

Boston's a joke.. they were old and run down off previous year's long playoff runs. To act like a prime/peak duncan couldnt close that series with Wade still balling out is absurd.

As far as the Bulls.. the reason the Heat had so much trouble with them was their offensive rebounding. Duncan is one of the greatest defensive rebounders of all time and would've nipped that advantage in the bud. Wade played like shit but that series was the Lebron and Bosh show offensively.. he wasnt getting much burn and honestly didnt have to do much,




In 2012 Duncan would magically be able to guard Durant the way Lebron did? Or be able to run the offence to create shots for the shooters the way Lebron can? Dont mistake me, Duncan would get his numbers, but Durant could go off on Miller/Battier whoever Miami puts on him. The same Durant that backdoor swept Duncan that same year FYI


Lebron backdoor swept an old ass Duncan lol.. that has nothing to do with a prime vs prime comparison. That series would be close, but again to act like Durant would just outplay a peak duncan and still prime wade as a fact or something is naive.. it would be close but id take duncan/wade combo over westbrook/durant.

[DMAVS41]

LMAO wade had 1 40 point game after Heat were already up 3-2, other than that he was definately below par for D Wade. Remember, the perimeter defenders are focused mainly on LeBron, no LeBron means that they are constantly focused on Wade, does he put up the same numbers then?

In 2013 Pacers had 49 wins, and they would have in all likely hood got 50, but they only played 81 games that year

Duncan winning in 2011? LOL so Duncan would be able to beat Boston, and close out Chicago which was a series were Wade was struggling? People just look at the finals to justify others winning in LeBrons place, but fail to realize what Lebron did to get them there

Does Duncan do this? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rxU9s2TqDc

Or this?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgLMI784M4E


In 2012 Duncan would magically be able to guard Durant the way Lebron did? Or be able to run the offence to create shots for the shooters the way Lebron can? Dont mistake me, Duncan would get his numbers, but Durant could go off on Miller/Battier whoever Miami puts on him. The same Durant that backdoor swept Duncan that same year FYI

And no way Duncan can suddenly pull the Aging Heat with Wade and Bosh a shell of themselves past Indiana in 2013, especially when Hibbert and West can both key in on Duncan at once.

I'm not trying to hate on Duncan, he is an all time great post player with a great resume, he's just not able to impact a game like LeBron, is it that hard to understand? :confusedshrug:


The bold is just not true. The player you keep propping didn't win when he had teams like the 03 Spurs. In fact, he had a 5 year stretch of this;

07 - Horrible in NBA finals

08 - Truly terrible in the first half of the 08 series agaisnt the Celtics;
Averaging 19 points on 26% shooting in the first 4 games...:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

09 - Was great, but lost...and so if we are hating on Duncan here for losing while playing great....same standards applies here

10 - Played one of the worst/strangest big games a superstar has ever played

11 - Had the worst finals a superstar in prime has ever played



Again, we could look at those 5 years differently and more fairly, but you aren't being objective at all about Duncan...so why should we be more fair about Lebron? It this stuff is all about performance in a vacuum...Duncan never had a 5 year stretch in his prime anything close to the disaster that those 5 years were.

Not to mention Lebron missed the playoffs his first 2 years. Duncan was first team all nba and all defense as a rookie...and won the title and finals mvp in his 2nd year.

Again, more stuff in a vacuum...

[dubeta]

That series would be close, but again to act like Durant would just outplay a peak duncan and still prime wade as a fact or something is naive.. it would be close but id take duncan/wade combo over westbrook/durant.

So you're saying Duncan, Injured hobbled wade (definately not prime) , Bosh returning from injury is going to beat Durant, westbrook, harden, and Ibaka?? :rolleyes:

[HoopsFanNumero1]

I love how all these Kobe fans always say the Heat didn't play a 50-win team until the Finals, as if that 1 extra win would have magically made the Pacers so much better.

[DMAVS41]

So you're saying Duncan, Injured hobbled wade (definately not prime) , Bosh returning from injury is going to beat Durant, westbrook, harden, and Ibaka?? :rolleyes:

Well, why not?

Peak Duncan was a ****ing beast. Who the **** is stopping Duncan on the Thunder?

Oh, and you can't even double him because Bosh would just drop 40 on open looks.

And Wade was still very good...better than every player on the Thunder outside of Durant.

The fact that you think it's a :rolleyes: thing to say that shows how ignorant you are.

Chalmers
Wade
Battier/Miller
Bosh/Haslem
Peak Duncan

LOL...that is a great ****ing team.

Where did this hobbled Wade in 12 stuff start? The dude put up 23/5/5 and played excellent defense throughout the playoffs in 12. He played every game and averaged like 40 mpg iirc.

[Big#50]

MJ
Duncan
Shaq
KAJ
Bird
Wilt
Hakeem
Kobe
Lebron
Magic

Lebron is not even close yet. Stats in the east means nothing. He is winning rings now because everyone got old. Good competition is hard to find now.

[mehyaM24]

I love how all these Kobe fans always say the Heat didn't play a 50-win team until the Finals, as if that 1 extra win would have magically made the Pacers so much better.

im saying doe.

kobe fans are ****ing snakes man. :oldlol: cheering for whoever, even boston (lol @ taking miami to 7 being "weak"), just to defeat lebron. and now the durant bandwagon.....

i can only imagine if Lebron came into kobes situation (or duncans). great organization, great players and coaches from day ****ing 1.

right now we would be having SERIOUS discussions about Lebron as the GOAT. top 3 or 5 all time would be a foregone conclusion.

[DMAVS41]

im saying doe.

kobe fans are ****ing snakes man. :oldlol: cheering for whoever, even boston (who wasn't "weak" btw. they took miami to 7 games), just to defeat lebron. and now the durant bandwagon.....

i can only imagine if Lebron came into kobes situation (or duncans). great organization, great players and coaches from day ****ing 1.

right now we would be having SERIOUS discussions about Lebron as the GOAT. top 3 or 5 all time would be a foregone conclusion.

dude. he's had a top 5 team in the league for 6 straight years now. And in 4 of them arguably the best team.

Lebron has had boatloads of help now from 09 through 14...that is 6 years.

And, sorry, Lebron wasn't good enough to win a title as the number 1 option in year one or two.

To pretend like Lebron has been hurt by his help now after 6 straight years of quality top 5 or better teams in the league...just come off it. Most players go their entire careers not having the kind of help he's had just in the last 4 years alone.

LOL...

[Kingwillball]

[/B]

The bold is just not true. The player you keep propping didn't win when he had teams like the 03 Spurs. In fact, he had a 5 year stretch of this;

07 - Horrible in NBA finals

08 - Truly terrible in the first half of the 08 series agaisnt the Celtics;
Averaging 19 points on 26% shooting in the first 4 games...:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

09 - Was great, but lost...and so if we are hating on Duncan here for losing while playing great....same standards applies here

10 - Played one of the worst/strangest big games a superstar has ever played

11 - Had the worst finals a superstar in prime has ever played



Again, we could look at those 5 years differently and more fairly, but you aren't being objective at all about Duncan...so why should we be more fair about Lebron? It this stuff is all about performance in a vacuum...Duncan never had a 5 year stretch in his prime anything close to the disaster that those 5 years were.

Not to mention Lebron missed the playoffs his first 2 years. Duncan was first team all nba and all defense as a rookie...and won the title and finals mvp in his 2nd year.

Again, more stuff in a vacuum...


How good is Lebron how about people saying he had terrible finals including myself yet still averaged 18,7,7 which 98% of players in league would be a very good to great finals.

[mehyaM24]

dude. he's had a top 5 team in the league for 6 straight years now. And in 4 of them arguably the best team.

Lebron has had boatloads of help now from 09 through 14...that is 6 years.

And, sorry, Lebron wasn't good enough to win a title as the number 1 option in year one or two.

To pretend like Lebron has been hurt by his help now after 6 straight years of quality top 5 or better teams in the league...just come off it. Most players go their entire careers not having the kind of help he's had just in the last 4 years alone.

LOL...

having mo williams as your next best player constitutes as "boatloads of help"? :roll: GTFO....

[DMAVS41]

How good is Lebron how about people saying he had terrible finals including myself yet still averaged 18,7,7 which 98% of players in league would be a very good to great finals.

Because we are comparing him to the kind of players like Duncan and other all time greats.

It's on a curve. You could say that about so many players.

How good is Kobe/Dirk/Duncan/KG/Shaq/Durant...etc...they play poorly and 98% of players in the league would be considered to have a very good to great finals.

Shit, Dirk averaged 20/11/3 in the 07 series he still to this day is killed for it...and that even includes the blowout game 6 loss that lowers his numbers a ton...the team was just done at that point.

[Kingwillball]

Duncan right now for titles and longevity i can't argue putting Duncan slightly ahead of Lebron however when Lebron is said and done if he plays at high to pretty high level another 5-7 years will IMO easily lock himself in top 5 if not top 2.

[DMAVS41]

having mo williams as your next best player constitutes as "boatloads of help"? :roll: GTFO....

Well guess what. Mo Williams in 09 was better than Tony Parker was in 03...

And that was a statement about the last 6 years. Over the last 6 years Lebron has had a ton of help...4 truly legit championship contenders on the Heat...and then two very quality teams in Cleveland that had their flaws, but certainly good enough to make a special run.

Nobody should hate on Lebron for failing to win with them, but to act like they were utter garbage is also misleading.

Again, Duncan won in 03 with a similar team. That is the point!

Mo Williams in 09 - 16/3/4 53% TS

Parker in 03 - 15/3/4 47% TS

Hmmmmmmmm....

[dubeta]

having mo williams as your next best player constitutes as "boatloads of help"? :roll: GTFO....

LMAO this :cheers: , mo williams is so good he turned into a benchwarmer after LeBron left. Im seriously starting to question the IQ of some of the trolls here. Duncan and Kobe had stacked teams 90% of the time. LeBron has won 2 rings with 3 years with a stacked team.

[DMAVS41]

LMAO this :cheers: , mo williams is so good he turned into a benchwarmer after LeBron left. Im seriously starting to question the IQ of some of the trolls here. Duncan and Kobe had stacked teams 90% of the time. LeBron has won 2 rings with 3 years with a stacked team.

Mo Williams in 09 - 16/3/4 53% TS

Parker in 03 - 15/3/4 47% TS

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[mehyaM24]

Well guess what. Mo Williams in 09 was better than Tony Parker was in 03...

And that was a statement about the last 6 years. Over the last 6 years Lebron has had a ton of help...4 truly legit championship contenders on the Heat...and then two very quality teams in Cleveland that had their flaws, but certainly good enough to make a special run.

Nobody should hate on Lebron for failing to win with them, but to act like they were utter garbage is also misleading.

Again, Duncan won in 03 with a similar team. That is the point!

you are on drugs....

tony parker and ginobili in 03 > mo williams. top to bottom id take the 03 spurs vet experience and coaching(POP = GOAT) over the cleveland lebron's with mike ****ing brown.

[red1]

duncan's accomplishments > lebron so far but he will inevitably get leapfrogged unless lebron chokes again

[DMAVS41]

you are on drugs....

tony parker and ginobili in 03 > mo williams. top to bottom id take the 03 spurs vet experience and coaching(POP = GOAT) over the cleveland lebron's with mike ****ing brown.

You really need to do your homework because we all know you weren't watching those games back in 03.

Mo Williams/Delonte West > Parker/Manu...in 09 vs 03.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

im saying doe.

kobe fans are ****ing snakes man. :oldlol: cheering for whoever, even boston (lol @ taking miami to 7 being "weak"), just to defeat lebron. and now the durant bandwagon.....

i can only imagine if Lebron came into kobes situation (or duncans). great organization, great players and coaches from day ****ing 1.

right now we would be having SERIOUS discussions about Lebron as the GOAT. top 3 or 5 all time would be a foregone conclusion.

Pretty much. That's why no one takes them seriously. Any "Lebron vs x" player discussion, you already know who these Kobe fans are picking.

[dubeta]

Duncan with LeBron's Cleveland team without Pop's excellent coaching and managing of minutes wont even get out of the first round tbh :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[dubeta]

Pretty much. That's why no one takes them seriously. Any "Lebron vs x" player discussion, you already know who these Kobe fans are picking.

Which is pretty silly in this debate as Duncan and Lebron are both better than Kobe :roll: :roll: No matter who Kobe stans pick, they lose

Now they're proping up Durant but with a few rings Durant can pass Kobe and Kobe is further pushed out the all time rankings, Kobe stans shooting themselves in the foot :roll: :roll:

[mehyaM24]

You really need to do your homework because we all know you weren't watching those games back in 03.

Mo Williams/Delonte West > Parker/Manu...in 09 vs 03.

nah you're just a ****ing idiot. they were already great international players,which is why nobody in their right mind would even take the comparison seriously.

popovich is also infinitely better than potato head

[DMAVS41]

nah you're just a ****ing idiot. they were already great international players,which is why nobody in their right mind would even take the comparison seriously.

popovich is also infinitely better than potato head

being an international player doesn't just make you better.

Williams and West were already good NBA players.

Manu was a walking turnover back then.


But by all means...explain to me how Parker/Manu played better than Williams/West.

I'm interested to hear your take on why Parker/Manu were better in 03 than Williams/West were in 09

Let's hear it please...

[rmt]

If you think Hibbert gave the Heat problems last year, take a guess at what a PEAK Duncan who could play 40+minutes would do? Duncan took a weak supporting cast to the championship in the brutal West. Lebron had to team up with Wade and Bosh to win a championship in the easy East.

It's pathetic that it took Lebron until game 7 to take the WIDE OPEN shots the Spurs were giving him. Lebron's overall performances in Finals does not speak of a GOAT candidate the way some of you are already anointing him - top 2-3 candidate, LOL?

[rmt]

nah you're just a ****ing idiot. they were already great international players,which is why nobody in their right mind would even take the comparison seriously.

popovich is also infinitely better than potato head

Parker was a nobody - international or otherwise. Manu was a turnover machine averaging 9 pts in the playoffs.

2003 Playoffs
Parker 14.7 pts / 3.5 asst 40.3%
SJax 12.8 pts / 4.1 reb 41.4%
Manu 9.4 pts / 3.8 reb 38.6%

5 years total NBA experience between the 3 of them. Compare that with all-stars Bosh and Wade (FMVP, all-NBA, all-defensive).

[tpols]

So you're saying Duncan, Injured hobbled wade (definately not prime) , Bosh returning from injury is going to beat Durant, westbrook, harden, and Ibaka?? :rolleyes:

injured hobbled wade? He did fine in the 2012 Finals.. he played great actually. Take bosh off the team.. Wade in one of his still last year's of greatness along with a prime/peak duncan cant beat westbroock durant and.. james harden???

Kindly gtfo.

[mehyaM24]

being an international player doesn't just make you better.

Williams and West were already good NBA players.

Manu was a walking turnover back then.


But by all means...explain to me how Parker/Manu played better than Williams/West.

I'm interested to hear your take on why Parker/Manu were better in 03 than Williams/West were in 09

Let's hear it please...

they weren't JUST international players, they are ALL TIME GREAT international players.

rational people dont ignore potential and intangibles,something san antonio all had over cleveland....but ill break it down for you statistically.

2003 postseason PER:
parker- 12.6
ginobili- 15

2010 postseason PER:
williams- 12.1
west- 8.9

again,you factor other things like experience and coaching and its not even close

[mehyaM24]

Parker was a nobody - international or otherwise. Manu was a turnover machine averaging 9 pts in the playoffs.

2003 Playoffs
Parker 14.7 pts / 3.5 asst 40.3%
SJax 12.8 pts / 4.1 reb 41.4%
Manu 9.4 pts / 3.8 reb 38.6%

5 years total NBA experience between the 3 of them. Compare that with all-stars Bosh and Wade (FMVP, all-NBA, all-defensive).

wrong. parker was not a "nobody". educate yourself. guy prompted a recruiting war among several colleges(including UCLA and Georgia Tech) after his showing in the nike hoop summit. he ended up staying in france playing for paris basket where he was insane....the rest is history

[tpols]

they weren't JUST international players, they are ALL TIME GREAT international players.

rational people dont ignore potential and intangibles,something san antonio all had over cleveland....but ill break it down for you statistically.

2003 postseason PER:
parker- 12.6
ginobili- 15

2010 postseason PER:
williams- 12.1
west- 8.9

again,you factor other things like experience and coaching and its not even close

Spurs won because they were one of the best defensive and rebounding teams in the league.. Lebron's cavs were also one of the best defensive and rebounding teams in the league.. difference is Duncan was 2x the defender at the time and a waaaay better rebounder than lebron. Comparing offensive stats is foolish.. they werent winning off that.

[dubeta]

Parker was a nobody - international or otherwise. Manu was a turnover machine averaging 9 pts in the playoffs.

2003 Playoffs
Parker 14.7 pts / 3.5 asst 40.3%
SJax 12.8 pts / 4.1 reb 41.4%
Manu 9.4 pts / 3.8 reb 38.6%

5 years total NBA experience between the 3 of them. Compare that with all-stars Bosh and Wade (FMVP, all-NBA, all-defensive).

Thats not much different from the 15 pts and 12 pts wade and bosh averaged in 2013 playoffs :facepalm

[mehyaM24]

Spurs won because they were one of the best defensive and rebounding teams in the league.. Lebron's cavs were also one of the best defensive and rebounding teams in the league.. difference is Duncan was 2x the defender at the time and a waaaay better rebounder than lebron. Comparing offensive stats is foolish.. they werent winning off that.

no, you brainless moron, the difference is in coaching and talent, as i just presented in statistical form

kindly leave this thread and continue fapping to your kobe posters

[dubeta]

injured hobbled wade? He did fine in the 2012 Finals.. he played great actually. Take bosh off the team.. Wade in one of his still last year's of greatness along with a prime/peak duncan cant beat westbroock durant and.. james harden???

Kindly gtfo.

Durant >> Wade

Westbrook + harden combined >> Duncan

Bosh > (slightly) Ibaka

So how will Miami win? Remember Duncan with ginobli parker, Kawhi Leonard, Stephen Jackson, Dejuan Blair ,and one of the GOAT coaches Popovich got backdoor swept by the same Thunder that year :facepalm

[tpols]

no, you brainless moron, the difference is in coaching and talent, as i just presented in statistical form

Statistical format = PER? :roll:


I'm sorry.. there's just way more to the game than that. Fact is, offensively, Lebron and Duncan's help wasnt far off. Duncan's was a little better. BUT THE SPURS DIDNT WIN OFF THAT.

They won because they were the best the best defensive and rebounding team in the league.. which is fvcking all duncan. Cavs were very good offensively because of Lebron, but without their defense and rebounding from the supporting cast? They arent shit. That was great help for him. If Lebron couldve kept up his offensivce aggression instead of straight giving up, his team would have had a chance. They had the size and defense to compete with anyone. It was LEBRON who took his foot off the offensive pedal and decided he didnt have enough when he actually did given his talent level.

The equivalent would be if Duncan had given up playing defense and rebounding the ball in 2003 when he realized his supporting cast couldnt match Shaq and Kobe offensively. But he didnt! Because he isnt a gdamn choker and has a much stronger mental game than lebron does.

[DMAVS41]

It's all you tpols

I can't take the stupidity of this shit...

[Kvnzhangyay]

I have Lebron at 8th and Duncan at 12th right now, so yes

[tpols]

I have Lebron at 8th and Duncan at 12th right now, so yes

well.. thats fkd up. Duncan is at worst 8th and Lebron is borderline top 10. By the end of his career he might be top 5 but let it play out first

It's all you tpols

I can't take the stupidity of this shit...

yup.. I'm not even a duncan fan. You know that.. but this is a bit ridiculous

[Kvnzhangyay]

well.. thats fkd up. Duncan is at worst 8th and Lebron is borderline top 10. By the end of his career he might be top 5 but let it play out first


yup.. I'm not even a duncan fan. You know that.. but this is a bit ridiculous


Maybe so, but I tend to rank based much more off of peak, and Lebron's peak is interchangeable as the GOAT peak with Jordan, Shaq, and Hakeem. As consistent as Duncan has been, his peak, is not as insanely dominant as the above.

[lilgodfather1]

Title this year puts lebron above both duncan and bird, making him the greatest forward ever. Lebron will likely pass duncan in scoring next year, which is incredible when you think about it.

[NumberSix]

I'm not sure that DMAVS wouldn't argue that Tony Parker is better than LeBron.

[Carbine]

I feel pretty comfortable saying LeBron is a better player. He's not higher on the all-time ranking though.

He's only in his 11th year. If he retired tomorrow he wouldn't be ahead of Duncan. He needs a longer career, but that's going to be inevitable. He's only 29.

[bukowski81]

So you're saying Duncan, Injured hobbled wade (definately not prime) , Bosh returning from injury is going to beat Durant, westbrook, harden, and Ibaka?? :rolleyes:

If it is prime Duncan, of course, he would have been the best player on the series.

Old ass Duncan gives fits to Ibaka and Perkins, you are telling me prime Duncan would not totally dominate that series??

[bukowski81]

nah you're just a ****ing idiot. they were already great international players,which is why nobody in their right mind would even take the comparison seriously.

popovich is also infinitely better than potato head

Parker was a kid that had just turned 22 when the 03 finals started, he wasnt close to being a great international player, he was just a kid that seemed to have potential.

Its clear you didnt watch the NBA back then.

[Duncan21formvp]

Tim Duncan by far. Always beat the mess out of Lebron even when Lebron has two other stars on the team.