Kobe's MVP

[ArbitraryWater]

= Lifetime achievement award.

This was pretty much a known fact before, but is this one of the few topics all of ISH can agree on?

[ThatCoolKid]

I think everyone on ISH can agree that you are a huge fking fggt.

[fiddy]

= Lifetime achievement award.

This was pretty much a known fact before, but is this one of the few topics all of ISH can agree on?
learn the definition of fact

[Demitri98]

Lifetime achievement, but also deserved, Kobe was awesome in 08. Almost a pity award of sorts because he got robbed in 06 and to an extent in 07.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lifetime achievement, but also deserved, Kobe was awesome in 08. Almost a pity award of sorts because he got robbed in 06 and to an extent in 07.

Well its a pretty rare thing to see a guy winning MVP as 7th seed... In 2007 he was 42-40, barely a winning record.. Would be cool to have a list of the lowest seeded MVP's ever. I mean, I know Kareem is the only one ever to win the MVP while not making the Playoffs.

[riseagainst]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/48/4882b65ed24d4b51de1485fa6bfdf8b279171e2440f78ab659 5178e7f3c96271.jpg

[KobeMagic]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/48/4882b65ed24d4b51de1485fa6bfdf8b279171e2440f78ab659 5178e7f3c96271.jpg


:lol :lol
:roll: :roll: :roll:



:roll:


:applause: :applause:

[Iceman#44]

OP: 5,515 posts. Join date: january 2014:biggums: :wtf:

[20Four]

ArbitraryWater
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Berlin, Germany-Computer
Posts: 5,515
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___
Da fvk niqqa? You have no life? Go outside you stupid cvnt b|tch....use your hands for something useful instead of just typing and fapping :banghead: you no life son of a b|tch :mad:

[riseagainst]

OP: 5,515 posts. Join date: january 2014:biggums: :wtf:

wow,...... OP needs a new hobby.

[Heavincent]

Best player in the league + best record in the league

Only retard Kobe detractors like the OP say he didn't deserve it.

[Element]

Ok

[fpliii]

KG probably was the best player that season, but he missed 11 games, bringing others into the conversation. I have no problem with Kobe winning that year.

[gts]

OP: 5,515 posts. Join date: january 2014:biggums: :wtf:

48 posts a day...lol

[ArbitraryWater]

48 posts a day...lol

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwobmpkPmB1r6aoq4o1_400.gif

[ArbitraryWater]

KG probably was the best player that season, but he missed 11 games, bringing others into the conversation. I have no problem with Kobe winning that year.


Yeah lol honestly me neither... It was between Kobe/Paul/LeBron/Garnett, in that Order for me... Kobe carried the Lakers already before the Gasol trade. IMO perhaps Kobe's best season. Also, CP3 was damn close, finishing just one game below the Lakers with that cast.. :cheers:

[fpliii]

Yeah lol honestly me neither... It was between Kobe/Paul/LeBron/Garnett, in that Order for me... Kobe carried the Lakers already before the Gasol trade. IMO perhaps Kobe's best season. Also, CP3 was damn close, finishing just one game below the Lakers with that cast.. :cheers:
I'd still give it to KG probably, but I like bigs in general.

I'm not a huge fan of LeBron's, though I do respect his game. That being said, I'm not very high on him pre-08-09 (since then he's been the best player in the game obviously, by a substantial margin), before he became a legitimate defensive force. Kobe is an overrated defender (though in his prime he was definitely a great guy if you need a stop one-on-one), but I think since Kobe had the midrange/post game down at that point, you have to give him the edge purely on offense.

My issue with CP3 is that I don't like PGs in general. Among PGs, I think he's tremendous (and he's one of my favorite players, I'm a borderline stan of his), but his size limits his defensive impact. I think in order to be in the MVP conversation, you need to be able to guard multiple wing positions as a PG, unless the competition is super weak, or you have GOAT-level offensive impact (Oscar/Magic/Nash). Maybe CP3 does give you that much, maybe not.

I think that season, I'd go:

KG
Kobe
Duncan
CP3/LeBron

HM: Nash/Dirk

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

I'd still give it to KG probably, but I like bigs in general.

I'm not a huge fan of LeBron's, though I do respect his game. That being said, I'm not very high on him pre-08-09 (since then he's been the best player in the game obviously, by a substantial margin), before he became a legitimate defensive force. Kobe is an overrated defender (though in his prime he was definitely a great guy if you need a stop one-on-one), but I think since Kobe had the midrange/post game down at that point, you have to give him the edge purely on offense.

My issue with CP3 is that I don't like PGs in general. Among PGs, I think he's tremendous (and he's one of my favorite players, I'm a borderline stan of his), but his size limits his defensive impact. I think in order to be in the MVP conversation, you need to be able to guard multiple wing positions as a PG, unless the competition is super weak, or you have GOAT-level offensive impact (Oscar/Magic/Nash). Maybe CP3 does give you that much, maybe not.

I think that season, I'd go:

KG
Kobe
Duncan
CP3/LeBron

HM: Nash/Dirk
Duncan over CP in 08:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

MVP came down to the last game b/w kobe and CP and Kobe outplayed him. He deserved it but it was a tossup

[fpliii]

Duncan over CP in 08:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

MVP came down to the last game b/w kobe and CP and Kobe outplayed him. He deserved it but it was a tossup
lol believe me, I wouldn't complain if CP3 won. :cheers:

[BoutPractice]

His MVP was perfectly justifiable that year.

You could make a good case for both Paul and Garnett, whose transformational impact on the Celtics was visible already in the regular season (and ultimately resulted in a championship)... but Kobe did average 28 6 an 5 on 46% shooting for a team that won 57 games, and generally had one of the best seasons of his career. Acting like the award was some kind of travesty is strange - I'm fairly certain that it would be far less controversial if a player not named Kobe with the same stats and level of play had won it.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwobmpkPmB1r6aoq4o1_400.gif
:applause: :applause:

[ImKobe]

Leading his team to the 1st place in Conference, Lakers were already on top or close to the 1st seed even before the Pau trade, Kobe's numbers were the same with Pau as they were without

28/6/5/2 on 58%TS on a 1st seed is an earned MVP. Especially when you look at that Lakers roster. Pau for less than 30 games, Bynum only played 30 something games, Kwame was garbage prior to the trade, Walton & Radmanovic often started...we had no bench to speak of. 2008 Lakers had ZERO all-stars outside of Kobe and they won 57 games and were the 3rd best offense and 3rd best defense. Kobe had a remarkable season.

[ArbitraryWater]

I'd still give it to KG probably, but I like bigs in general.

I'm not a huge fan of LeBron's, though I do respect his game. That being said, I'm not very high on him pre-08-09 (since then he's been the best player in the game obviously, by a substantial margin), before he became a legitimate defensive force. Kobe is an overrated defender (though in his prime he was definitely a great guy if you need a stop one-on-one), but I think since Kobe had the midrange/post game down at that point, you have to give him the edge purely on offense.

My issue with CP3 is that I don't like PGs in general. Among PGs, I think he's tremendous (and he's one of my favorite players, I'm a borderline stan of his), but his size limits his defensive impact. I think in order to be in the MVP conversation, you need to be able to guard multiple wing positions as a PG, unless the competition is super weak, or you have GOAT-level offensive impact (Oscar/Magic/Nash). Maybe CP3 does give you that much, maybe not.

I think that season, I'd go:

KG
Kobe
Duncan
CP3/LeBron

HM: Nash/Dirk

Yeah I've seen you post, you're very high on the "Bigs > Smalls" :lol :cheers:

[ArbitraryWater]

His MVP was perfectly justifiable that year.

You could make a good case for both Paul and Garnett, whose transformational impact on the Celtics was visible already in the regular season (and ultimately resulted in a championship)... but Kobe did average 28 6 an 5 on 46% shooting for a team that won 57 games, and generally had one of the best seasons of his career. Acting like the award was some kind of travesty is strange - I'm fairly certain that it would be far less controversial if a player not named Kobe with the same stats and level of play had won it.


Leading his team to the 1st place in Conference, Lakers were already on top or close to the 1st seed even before the Pau trade, Kobe's numbers were the same with Pau as they were without

28/6/5/2 on 58%TS on a 1st seed is an earned MVP. Especially when you look at that Lakers roster. Pau for less than 30 games, Bynum only played 30 something games, Kwame was garbage prior to the trade, Walton & Radmanovic often started...we had no bench to speak of. 2008 Lakers had ZERO all-stars outside of Kobe and they won 57 games and were the 3rd best offense and 3rd best defense. Kobe had a remarkable season.

Agreed ftmp

[mehyaM24]

kg didnt deserve the mvp, that is when boston assembled the ORIGINAL "big three".

it was between kobe,lebron,paul. you could have given it to either one, and i wouldnt have a problem with it.

[Force]

ESPN's Micheal Wilbon and many others voters are on record calling Kobe's MVP a lifetime achievement. Remember, at this time it didn't look like he might win another ring so they said it "wouldn't be right" if Kobe retired without an MVP.

This is all on record.

[Relinquish]

Lifetime achievement, but also deserved, Kobe was awesome in 08. Almost a pity award of sorts because he got robbed in 06 and to an extent in 07.

How was he robbed in 06? Dude average 28 shots per game. :facepalm

[ImKobe]

ESPN's Micheal Wilbon and many others voters are on record calling Kobe's MVP a lifetime achievement. Remember, at this time it didn't look like he might win another ring so they said it "wouldn't be right" if Kobe retired without an MVP.

This is all on record.

Kobe had a better record than CP3, Lebron while having a worse roster that year (remember, he only had Pau for 20 something games in the regular season and he led his team to the top of the Conference before the Pau trade)
KG was on a stacked roster

You can say that CP3 had prettier numbers, but he had a much better supporting cast(West > Pau, also had Chandler & Peja) and didn't do as much with his roster. Kobe was a better scorer, rebounder & a defender than CP3 in 08.

The MVP award proved to be legit in the post-season, CP3 lost in the 2nd round, a Game 7 played at his own house against the Spurs that Kobe dominated in the WCF(in 5 games) while Parker & Manu outplayed CP3 in their series..

[riseagainst]

ESPN's Micheal Wilbon and many others voters are on record calling Kobe's MVP a lifetime achievement. Remember, at this time it didn't look like he might win another ring so they said it "wouldn't be right" if Kobe retired without an MVP.

This is all on record.

link or just blatant trolling?

[ImKobe]

How was he robbed in 06? Dude average 28 shots per game. :facepalm

27, not 28 and Kobe carried a bunch of scrubs to the Playoffs while putting up 35/5/5/2 for an entire season...

[Force]

Kobe had a better record than CP3, Lebron while having a worse roster that year (remember, he only had Pau for 20 something games in the regular season and he led his team to the top of the Conference before the Pau trade)
KG was on a stacked roster

You can say that CP3 had prettier numbers, but he had a much better supporting cast(West > Pau, also had Chandler & Peja) and didn't do as much with his roster. Kobe was a better scorer, rebounder & a defender than CP3 in 08.

The MVP award proved to be legit in the post-season, CP3 lost in the 2nd round, a Game 7 played at his own house against the Spurs that Kobe dominated in the WCF(in 5 games) while Parker & Manu outplayed CP3 in their series..

I'm just passing on the facts of what many of the MVP voters were saying. The MVP is often decided much earlier in the year, just like D Rose. He was already given the MVP before the all star break, all the voters already said. I'm just reminding the folks of an ESPN segment were a few voters were on talking about MVP and they picked Kobe with their actual reason being "it wouldn't be right if he never won an MVP"

The OP is right, it's a life time achievement award according to many real voters (media). It doesn't mean he sucks, it's just how it happened.

[AnaheimLakers24]

kobe got robbed in 09 and 06

[ArbitraryWater]

27, not 28 and Kobe carried a bunch of scrubs to the Playoffs while putting up 35/5/5/2 for an entire season...

AI put up 33/5/7, where is his MVP Galore?

MJ averaged 35 before, didnt get the MVP because of Team Record... so you need to quit crying about 2006, just because KB doesn't have as many MVP Caliber seasons as a Mike, LeBron, etc. does..

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

kobe got robbed in 09 and 06
06 shouldve been Dirks:no: :no:

[BasedTom]

Chris Paul was the MVP that year.

[ArbitraryWater]

Chris Paul was the MVP that year.

Paul with 21/4/12/3 on 49% and a 2nd all-defensive team to lead his team to a 56-26 Record and the 2nd Seed in a loaded West. Just one Game short of Kobe's 1 Seed Record, with David West as sidekick, while Kobe had Pau Gasol as sidekick.

Like Simmons said, CP3 was still a better Leader than Kobe was, in his best leadership season.

Paul sure has a damn good case.

[ImKobe]

AI put up 33/5/7(wrong, 33/3/7), where is his MVP Galore?

MJ averaged 35 before, didnt get the MVP because of Team Record... so you need to quit crying about 2006, just because KB doesn't have as many MVP Caliber seasons as a Mike, LeBron, etc. does..

Kobe spent his best years on shit teams, MJ & Lebron spent their prime years on stacked rosters. Prime Kobe only had one all-star player in Pau (who was only an all-star once in the previous 7 seasons without Kobe) up until his decline...

AI had an inferior record and his efficiency was much worse, MJ put up those numbers in the Magic/Bird era. Do you honestly think that Steve Nash was a more valuable player than Kobe in 06? Nash won his purely because of team success and his inflated numbers due to the pace while he had Marion, Diaw, Bell...

[SamuraiSWISH]

2008 MVP:

1) Kobe
2) CP3
3) LeBron
4) KG

[ImKobe]

Paul with 21/4/12/3 on 49% and a 2nd all-defensive team to lead his team to a 56-26 Record and the 2nd Seed in a loaded West. Just one Game short of Kobe's 1 Seed Record, with David West as sidekick, while Kobe had Pau Gasol as sidekick.

Like Simmons said, CP3 was still a better Leader than Kobe was, in his best leadership season.

Paul sure has a damn good case.

CP3 had an all-star, David West, for the entire season, who put up 21 & 9 for the season while Kobe only had Pau - who wasn't an all-star, for 27 games and he was winning without Pau. CP3 also had Peja, Chandler, Kobe could only dream of players like that, he had Fisher, Walton, Odom, Radmanovic as starters...

CP3 had a much better team around him and he did less with it.

[20Four]

AI put up 33/5/7, where is his MVP Galore?

MJ averaged 35 before, didnt get the MVP because of Team Record... so you need to quit crying about 2006, just because KB doesn't have as many MVP Caliber seasons as a Mike, LeBron, etc. does..
Honestly I wouldn't care if you died right now.....all your posts are pointless fvcking idiots go away

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe spent his best years on shit teams, MJ & Lebron spent their prime years on stacked rosters. Prime Kobe only had one all-star player in Pau (who was only an all-star once in the previous 7 seasons without Kobe) up until his decline...

AI had an inferior record and his efficiency was much worse, MJ put up those numbers in the Magic/Bird era. Do you honestly think that Steve Nash was a more valuable player than Kobe in 06? Nash won his purely because of team success and his inflated numbers due to the pace while he had Marion, Diaw, Bell...

Irrelevant. KB wasnt much of a better player than MJ when he averaged 35.

You mean his best years, as in 2 years, 2006&2007?


Also, AI just like Kobe shot 45%....... No worse efficiency.

Maybe you should check the Suns Team of 2004, basically the same roster that Nash made GREAT over the next couple of Years... To me the 2006 MVP could have only been Dirk.

[Young X]

CP met every criteria for an MVP and didn't get it. He had the:

Best combination of numbers and team success.

Significant team turnaround.

Best story - team returns to NO for the first time since Hurricane Katrina and has their best season in franchise history.


He didn't get robbed but he was the one most deserving of it. Now, players like Noah and Harden are ranked higher than him in votes smh lol.

[guy]

Kobe spent his best years on shit teams, MJ & Lebron spent their prime years on stacked rosters. Prime Kobe only had one all-star player in Pau (who was only an all-star once in the previous 7 seasons without Kobe) up until his decline...


3 out of 17 years on a bad team. Poor guy :rolleyes:

[dubeta]

Considering Kobe never was even close in leading the league in PER, Win Shares, RAPM, or any advanced stat, how can non-biased fans even make a case for Kobe ever being the most valuable in the league? :facepalm

Chucking inefficient shots without passing the ball much, or playing much defense doesn't really speak to "Most Valuable" now does it?

[ImKobe]

3 out of 17 years on a bad team. Poor guy :rolleyes:

Take 3 years out of anyone's prime (26-29) and see how it would affect their careers if they were stuck on horrible rosters with no chance of contending for a championship.

[ImKobe]

Considering Kobe never was even close in leading the league in PER, Win Shares, RAPM, or any advanced stat, how can non-biased fans even make a case for Kobe ever being the most valuable in the league? :facepalm

Chucking inefficient shots without passing the ball much, or playing much defense doesn't really speak to "Most Valuable" now does it?

5 rings in 7 Finals, now that's efficient.

[ArbitraryWater]

Take 3 years out of anyone's prime (26-29) and see how it would affect their careers if they were stuck on horrible rosters with no chance of contending for a championship.

Wade, and LeBron as well :confusedshrug:

LeBron's 2008-2010 Play would be considered Prime for Kobe... In fact, Peak.

It's just Bron's prime is crazy long, and he got even beter...

[T_L_P]

Kobe/Paul/Garnett all had legit cases.

My vote would have went to Paul, but I wasn't mad at Kobe winning it. However, Kobe has no case for '06 or '07 if you ask me.

Everyone says how bad they were, but it's not like Kobe gave them a chance -- those were two of the most ball dominant (translation: ball hogging) seasons in league history.

[guy]

Take 3 years out of anyone's prime (26-29) and see how it would affect their careers if they were stuck on horrible rosters with no chance of contending for a championship.

So Jordan from 87-90? Lebron from 06-10?

What exactly are you saying? That Kobe wasn't that good outside of those years? Almost every other superstar in history has had worse circumstances surrounding them overall for their career. Implying that Kobe was dealt a bad hand in his career is absolutely laughable.

[ArbitraryWater]

So Jordan from 87-90? Lebron from 06-10?

What exactly are you saying? That Kobe wasn't that good outside of those years? Almost every other superstar in history has had worse circumstances surrounding them overall for their career. Implying that Kobe was dealt a bad hand in his career is absolutely laughable.

This. In fact, even Duncan's teams from 2001-2003 were very mediocre..

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So Jordan from 87-90? Lebron from 06-10?

What exactly are you saying? That Kobe wasn't that good outside of those years? Almost every other superstar in history has had worse circumstances surrounding them overall for their career. Implying that Kobe was dealt a bad hand in his career is absolutely laughable.

If you're strictly talking ages, its more like 90-92 Jordan and 12-14 Lebron.

[dubeta]

5 rings in 7 Finals, now that's efficient.

Robert Horry 7 rings in 7 finals, GOAT!! :bowdown: :bowdown:

[ImKobe]

Wade, and LeBron as well :confusedshrug:

LeBron's 2008-2010 Play would be considered Prime for Kobe... In fact, Peak.

It's just Bron's prime is crazy long, and he got even beter...

Lebron wasn't at his peak in 08-10, he just put up better raw numbers because he had a bigger usage rate. Lebron hit his prime in 2012, IMO.

Lebron's 08-10 years are comparable to Kobe's from 2001-2003, when he was at his athletic prime, Lebron is a much better player right now. He won his 2 titles at 27 & 28 years old, when he had 2 all-stars and a bunch of great role players and when he matured as a man and expanded his game.

I'm just saying, you put a good starting line-up and a decent bench around Kobe from 06-08 and he flat out dominates the league because a) having good players around him gives him more space to dominate and b) he wouldn't have to expand so much energy every single game to get the W, meaning he would be more efficient all-around as a player, putting more effort into creating shots and playing defense.

[ImKobe]

So Jordan from 87-90? Lebron from 06-10?

What exactly are you saying? That Kobe wasn't that good outside of those years? Almost every other superstar in history has had worse circumstances surrounding them overall for their career. Implying that Kobe was dealt a bad hand in his career is absolutely laughable.

MJ from 90-93, Lebron from 11-14

[ImKobe]

Robert Horry 7 rings in 7 finals, GOAT!! :bowdown: :bowdown:

Robert Horry was a great player indeed, will always love him for Game 4 of the 2002 WCF.

[DetroitPistonFan]

Was Hakeem's MVP award in '94 also a "Life Time Achievement" award?

[DetroitPistonFan]

Robert Horry 7 rings in 7 finals, GOAT!! :bowdown: :bowdown:
Jim Loscutoff is better than Horry cause he won all 7 NBA championships with the same team. Bow to Jim Loscutoff, dubeta.

[aj1987]

Take 3 years out of anyone's prime (26-29) and see how it would affect their careers if they were stuck on horrible rosters with no chance of contending for a championship.
Dwyane Wade. Still managed to get into the top 20.

[guy]

MJ from 90-93, Lebron from 11-14

Whats your point? Jordan from 88-90 and Lebron from 09-10 is arguably just as good or better then Kobe ever was. Who cares what their age was? Not to mention not everyone's prime is exactly from age 26-29, nor is it always only 4 years. i wouldn't even say Kobe's "prime" was only 4 years. Seriously, no one can complain about Kobe getting dealt a bad hand. 3 out of 17 years with a bad team. Boo-f*cking-hoo :cry: .

[Jameerthefear]

Lol. Kobe's whole career is basically a ****ing consolation prize

[ThatCoolKid]

Lol. Kobe's whole career is basically a ****ing consolation prize

:facepalm Were you even born when Bebop aired? I bet you're real proud that you watched it for the first time in 2014, just like those little tools in high school all flaunting how into the Beatles they are.

[Heavincent]

People ignore the fact that Pau only played 26 games for the Lakers, and that Bynum went down in January. Paul had a better supporting cast, yet Kobe still got the 1 seed. He played a good portion of the season with Fisher, Walton, and Radmanovic in the starting lineup. That's...not good.

[Hey Yo]

Kobe spent his best years on shit teams, MJ & Lebron spent their prime years on stacked rosters. Prime Kobe only had one all-star player in Pau (who was only an all-star once in the previous 7 seasons without Kobe) up until his decline...

AI had an inferior record and his efficiency was much worse, MJ put up those numbers in the Magic/Bird era. Do you honestly think that Steve Nash was a more valuable player than Kobe in 06? Nash won his purely because of team success and his inflated numbers due to the pace while he had Marion, Diaw, Bell...
It wasn't because Pau wasn't good enough, it was because Yao was at C which meant Duncan was at PF. When Duncan was needed at C for the all-star team, they put him there. When he wasn't he was made PF. Then add Dirk into the mix to the PF position.

Suns lost Stat for the season after the 3rd game. They won 8 less games than the year before. Nash was the reason why PHX played so well w/o Stat.

Kobe avg. 35pts on 27fga wasn't that impressive. Nash deserved MVP in 06'

[KingLeBronJames]

Lol. Kobe's whole career is basically a ****ing consolation prize

I see you in every Kobe/ Lakers thread. Are you still that mad about Kobe and the Lakers beating the Magic back in the '09 Finals?

[tpols]

Whats your point? Jordan from 88-90 and Lebron from 09-10 is arguably just as good or better then Kobe ever was. Who cares what their age was? Not to mention not everyone's prime is exactly from age 26-29, nor is it always only 4 years. i wouldn't even say Kobe's "prime" was only 4 years. Seriously, no one can complain about Kobe getting dealt a bad hand. 3 out of 17 years with a bad team. Boo-f*cking-hoo :cry: .

you're oversimplifying the argument.. Kobe was not dealt a bad hand by any means.. but as far as a discussion about MVPs go, his career just wasnt set up for him to win as many.

Kobe played with prime Shaq for almost half his career. Its very hard to win MVPs when you're playing next to another extremely dominant player. Which is why Shaq only has one MVP as well despite being so dominant.. cuz he had Kobe. The media would rather give it to a underdog who carries his team past expectations ala Iverson in 2001 or Rose in 2011 than the true best, most impactful player in the league.

Lebron faced a similar situation his first year in Miami.. they just werent going to give him an MVP award while playing next to a prime Wade. It was only when Wade declined that he was allowed that recognition again.


If Kobe played his prime from 2001 to 2010 w/ a guy like chris webber, or pau, or lamarcus aldridge or something and he had B to B+ supporting casts throughout all those years, he wouldve gotten a handful more MVPs than if he went from playing with A+ supporting casts..where his help is deemed 'too much'.. then D supporting casts, where he cant reach the required win total.. than B+ supporting casts only at the very end of the prime.

If Kobe had Pau from 06 to 08 he mightve won 3 MVPs in a row..

[aj1987]

you're oversimplifying the argument.. Kobe was not dealt a bad hand by any means.. but as far as a discussion about MVPs go, his career just wasnt set up for him to win as many.

Kobe played with prime Shaq for almost half his career. Its very hard to win MVPs when you're playing next to another extremely dominant player. Which is why Shaq only has one MVP as well despite being so dominant.. cuz he had Kobe. The media would rather give it to a underdog who carries his team past expectations ala Iverson in 2001 or Rose in 2011 than the true best, most impactful player in the league.

Lebron faced a similar situation his first year in Miami.. they just werent going to give him an MVP award while playing next to a prime Wade. It was only when Wade declined that he was allowed that recognition again.


If Kobe played his prime from 2001 to 2010 w/ a guy like chris webber, or pau, or lamarcus aldridge or something and he had B to B+ supporting casts throughout all those years, he wouldve gotten a handful more MVPs than if he went from playing with A+ supporting casts..where his help is deemed 'too much'.. then D supporting casts, where he cant reach the required win total.. than B+ supporting casts only at the very end of the prime.

If Kobe had Pau from 06 to 08 he mightve won 3 MVPs in a row..


There is literally no way that Kobe is winning MVP's over a prime Shaq.

Also, '06 Wade is vastly overlooked as an MVP candidate. '06 Kobe isn't averaging anything close to 35 PPG on a good team.

[Heavincent]

I see you in every Kobe/ Lakers thread. Are you still that mad about Kobe and the Lakers beating the Magic back in the '09 Finals?

Wasn't he like 4 when that happened? I doubt he even remembers.

Stupid, attention starved little kid.

[Jameerthefear]

:facepalm Were you even born when Bebop aired? I bet you're real proud that you watched it for the first time in 2014, just like those little tools in high school all flaunting how into the Beatles they are.
So I'm not allowed to watch old anime? Dumb fcuk.

[Black and White]

So I'm not allowed to watch old anime? Dumb fcuk.

Jameer, just stop trolling Laker/Kobe threads, or trolling in any form, it wasn't funny to begin with and still isn't funny now.

[tpols]

There is literally no way that Kobe is winning MVP's over a prime Shaq.

Also, '06 Wade is vastly overlooked as an MVP candidate. '06 Kobe isn't averaging anything close to 35 PPG on a good team.

that was what I was saying :biggums:

Winning MVPs is 10x harder with a all time great on your team. As far as Wade in 06, Kobe was clearly seen as the better regular season player all year.. Wade made his mark in the playoffs, which has nothing to do with MVPs.




But regardless, making such blanket statements as the bold when talking about MVPs is silly. Circumstance dictates just as much. You say Kobe could never win MVP over prime Shaq if they were on separate teams(thats what you meant right?) but Allen Iverson won MVP over peak shaq.:oldlol: Derrick Rose won MVP over peak Lebron.. Steve Nash won MVPs over prime Duncan and peak Kobe.. Its about circumstances more than anything else.

I think the MVP award in the 70s, 80s and 90s used to be about truly who the best player was and not which underdog led his team the farthest or who happened to be the best player on a team with 60 or more wins. KAJ was winning MVPs on teams with LOSING records back in the day.. would that ever happen today??? It used to be about who was the most dominant but the criteria have morphed and changed over time.

[aj1987]

that was what I was saying :biggums:

Winning MVPs is 10x harder with a all time great on your team. As far as Wade in 06, Kobe was clearly seen as the better regular season player all year.. Wade made his mark in the playoffs, which has nothing to do with MVPs.

But regardless, making such blanket statements as the bold when talking about MVPs is silly. Circumstance dictates just as much. You say Kobe could never win MVP over prime Shaq if they were on separate teams(thats what you meant right?) but Allen Iverson won MVP over peak shaq.:oldlol: Derrick Rose won MVP over peak Lebron.. Steve Nash won MVPs over prime Duncan and peak Kobe.. Its about circumstances more than anything else.

I think the MVP award in the 70s, 80s and 90s used to be about truly who the best player was and not which underdog led his team the farthest or who happened to be the best player on a team with 60 or more wins. KAJ was winning MVPs on teams with LOSING records back in the day.. would that ever happen today??? It used to be about who was the most dominant but the criteria have morphed and changed over time.

Reading comprehension.

Even if they were on different teams, there's literally no way that Kobe is winning an MVP over prime Shaq. AI stole one.

Wade averaged 27/6/7/2/1 on 58% TS, while being elite defensively.

[tpols]

Reading comprehension.

Even if they were on different teams, there's literally no way that Kobe is winning an MVP over prime Shaq. AI stole one.

So.. AI can win one over peak shaq but Kobe, a clearly superior player, couldnt?? Shaq has one MVP dude.. there was literally one year in his entire career where he won an MVP but he somehow blocking another player who played 17 years from winning one? When inferior players to himself were winning them over Shaq? What?

AI stole one.. ok. He still won MVP over Shaq. Kobe could 'steal' one as well. Which would mean he won MVP over Shaq.:oldlol:

[SwayDizzle]

Kobe was hands down the best player in the world in 08 and 09. Bronze was looking up to Kobe in awe of his greatness. Much like Kobe did with MJ.

[aj1987]

So.. AI can win one over peak shaq but Kobe, a clearly superior player, couldnt?? Shaq has one MVP dude.. there was literally one year in his entire career where he won an MVP but he somehow blocking another player who played 17 years from winning one? When inferior players to himself were winning them over Shaq? What?

AI stole one.. ok. He still won MVP over Shaq. Kobe could 'steal' one as well. Which would mean he won MVP over Shaq.:oldlol:

Kobe would've won MVP's on the Hornets. :oldlol:

Shaq not winning an MVP in '01 was just a travesty. It was like Rose winning in '11 or Kobe winning in '08. The midget chucker NEVER deserved an MVP. '99, '02, and '03 were a farce as well. Shaq legit deserved 5-6 MVP's.

[mehyaM24]

Reading comprehension.

Even if they were on different teams, there's literally no way that Kobe is winning an MVP over prime Shaq. AI stole one.

Wade averaged 27/6/7/2/1 on 58% TS, while being elite defensively.

sans 2009,wade was never an mvp candidate. please STFU with that propaganda

[Lonely_Sandberg]

= Lifetime achievement award.

This was pretty much a known fact before, but is this one of the few topics all of ISH can agree on?

Kobe be all...
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/qFv-BRu1DVg/0.jpg

[T_L_P]

Kobe would've won MVP's on the Hornets. :oldlol:

Shaq not winning an MVP in '01 was just a travesty. It was like Rose winning in '11 or Kobe winning in '08. The midget chucker NEVER deserved an MVP. '99, '02, and '03 were a farce as well. Shaq legit deserved 5-6 MVP's.

Shaq has no case for '03. His team finished 5th in the West, and he missed like 16 games. Let me say that again: him and a 30/6/6 Kobe generated 50 wins; Duncan and a sophomore Parker generated 60.

:facepalm

[aj1987]

sans 2009,wade was never an mvp candidate. please STFU with that propaganda
You're the retard who trolls fpliii, right? :facepalm

Not even gonna bother to get into a basketball discussion with your dumbass.


Shaq has no case for '03. His team finished 5th in the West, and he missed like 16 games. Let me say that again: him and a 30/6/6 Kobe generated 50 wins; Duncan and a sophomore Parker generated 60.

:facepalm
That team was absolute garbage outside of Shaq and Kobe. They were a pretty 1a and 1b. Kobe might've deserved it as well, because of his defense. SAS has a well rounded team defensively. Timmy did carry them, but lets not act like he didn't have help.

[mehyaM24]

You're the retard who trolls fpliii, right? :facepalm

Not even gonna bother to get into a basketball discussion with your dumbass.

lmao this idiot

save for 2009,wade was NEVER a LEGIT mvp candidate. an historical fact you can look up.

[sportjames23]

OP: 5,515 posts. Join date: january 2014:biggums: :wtf:

Damn. :biggums:

[riseagainst]

Kobe would've won MVP's on the Hornets. :oldlol:

Shaq not winning an MVP in '01 was just a travesty. It was like Rose winning in '11 or Kobe winning in '08. The midget chucker NEVER deserved an MVP. '99, '02, and '03 were a farce as well. Shaq legit deserved 5-6 MVP's.

if you truly actually believe all of this, then you are a retard.

[tpols]

Kobe would've won MVP's on the Hornets. :oldlol:

Shaq not winning an MVP in '01 was just a travesty. It was like Rose winning in '11 or Kobe winning in '08. The midget chucker NEVER deserved an MVP. '99, '02, and '03 were a farce as well. Shaq legit deserved 5-6 MVP's.

wow... when did you become a full blown troll ??

[chazzy]

Yeah lol honestly me neither... It was between Kobe/Paul/LeBron/Garnett, in that Order for me... Kobe carried the Lakers already before the Gasol trade. IMO perhaps Kobe's best season. Also, CP3 was damn close, finishing just one game below the Lakers with that cast.. :cheers:
Huh? Then why did you even make this thread if you don't agree with the premise of it..?

[riseagainst]

Huh? Then why did you even make this thread if you don't agree with the premise of it..?

troll bait thread

[sportjames23]

:applause: :applause:


And this nikka's even worse. Over 6,000 posts since Jan. :facepalm

[aj1987]

wow... when did you become a full blown troll ??
Kobe did have a case of MVP in '03, but are you gonna sit here are tell me that AI deserved the one in '01? Shaq would've won it in '02 as well, if he didn't miss a bunch of games.



lmao this idiot

save for 2009,wade was NEVER a LEGIT mvp candidate. an historical fact you can look up.
Yeah, you're a complete retard,

[mehyaM24]

Kobe did have a case of MVP in '03, but are you gonna sit here are tell me that AI deserved the one in '01? Shaq would've won it in '02 as well, if he didn't miss a bunch of games.



Yeah, you're a complete retard,

look it up dumbass. he was, what, top 5 in votes twice in his career? if that?

lebron and kobe own his soul

[aj1987]

look it up dumbass. he was, what, top 5 twice in his career?
Go back to trolling, kid. You don't even deserve a basketball related response.

[mehyaM24]

Go back to trolling, kid. You don't even deserve a basketball related response.

is that why you continue to respond?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2011.html#mvp
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2010.html#mvp
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2009.html#mvp
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2008.html#mvp
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2007.html#mvp
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2006.html#mvp
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2005.html#mvp
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2004.html#mvp

look that up, you little bitch(i wont even post 2012 and 2013,he was pathetic)

[mehyaM24]

LMAO billups got more votes than wade in 2006 :roll:

[TheMarkMadsen]

^^

Damn I forgot how close Nash was to winning 3 straight MVPS :roll: :roll:

[joeyjoejoe]

Kobe had a better record than CP3, Lebron while having a worse roster that year (remember, he only had Pau for 20 something games in the regular season and he led his team to the top of the Conference before the Pau trade)
KG was on a stacked roster

You can say that CP3 had prettier numbers, but he had a much better supporting cast(West > Pau, also had Chandler & Peja) and didn't do as much with his roster. Kobe was a better scorer, rebounder & a defender than CP3 in 08.

The MVP award proved to be legit in the post-season, CP3 lost in the 2nd round, a Game 7 played at his own house against the Spurs that Kobe dominated in the WCF(in 5 games) while Parker & Manu outplayed CP3 in their series..

West > pau now but not back then and manu and parker didn't outplay Paul in that series, pop even said he hasn't been that worries about a perimeter player since kobe

[ArbitraryWater]

You're the retard who trolls fpliii, right? :facepalm

Not even gonna bother to get into a basketball discussion with your dumbass.


That team was absolute garbage outside of Shaq and Kobe. They were a pretty 1a and 1b. Kobe might've deserved it as well, because of his defense. SAS has a well rounded team defensively. Timmy did carry them, but lets not act like he didn't have help.

Nah there's really not a case for Shaq over Timmy in 2003... 2002 would be hard too.

Duncan deserved that all the way. Arguably should have been unanimous.

[rhythmic]

Sorry Chris Paul lost to the same team Kobe beat in 5 games putting up 30/6/4 on 53% shooting.

Dude put up 29/6/5 season while leading his team to the NBA finals.
Besides Garnett, who missed 11 games that year, who exactly deserved it more?

[ArbitraryWater]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[RoundMoundOfReb]

CP3 was the MVP. Kobe getting it wasn't a travesty though.

[Heavincent]

Playoffs have nothing to do with it :confusedshrug:

MVP's are validated in the post season. That's why nobody cares about Dirk's 07 MVP.

And like I said, Kobe won 1 more game with inferior help for most of the season. Case closed.

[ArbitraryWater]

MVP's are validated in the post season. That's why nobody cares about Dirk's 07 MVP.

And like I said, Kobe won 1 more game with inferior help for most of the season. Case closed.

What's with the cop out "MVP's are validated in the post-season"

?

It's a REGULAR SEASON AWARD... NUFF SAID.

I don't bother that Kobe won, but don't act like CP3 didn't have as good of a case...


Paul with 21/4/12/3 on 49% and a 2nd all-defensive team to lead his team to a 56-26 Record and the 2nd Seed in a loaded West. Just one Game short of Kobe's 1 Seed Record, with David West as sidekick, while Kobe had Pau Gasol as sidekick.

Like Simmons said, CP3 was still a better Leader than Kobe was, in his best leadership season.

Paul sure has a damn good case.


CP met every criteria for an MVP and didn't get it. He had the:

Best combination of numbers and team success.

Significant team turnaround.

Best story - team returns to NO for the first time since Hurricane Katrina and has their best season in franchise history.


He didn't get robbed but he was the one most deserving of it. Now, players like Noah and Harden are ranked higher than him in votes smh lol.

[Heavincent]

I don't see much of a case for Paul. Kobe was a better player, and got the 1 seed with less help.

Paul is definitely #2 though.

[JohnFreeman]

Nah, Kobe deserved it

[rhythmic]

Playoffs have nothing to do with it :confusedshrug:

Okay.

Lakers 57 wins
Hornets 56 wins

@ LA (LA lost 118-104)
@ New Orleans (LA wins 109-80)
@ New Orleans (LA lost 108-98)
@ LA (LA won 107-104) For the 1st seed in the conference

In that deciding game:

Kobe - 29 points, 10 rebounds, 8 assists, 2 steals (9 for 17 FG) & 1 TO
Paul - 15 points, 17 assists, 6 rebounds, 4 steals (4 for 13 FG) & 3 TO

So basically in the most important game, that would decide the #1 seed and home-court advantage Kobe led his team to victory while clearly outplaying Paul in that game.

So the dude wins more and outplays Paul during the regular season, yet somehow he still doesn't deserve the award. Let alone just clearly being the best player in the world. :facepalm

[Ne 1]

The Lakers were 25-11 early at the time of Bynum's injury, Kobe kept them going until they got Gasol, then Gasol was injured and he kept them going and they ended up with the best record in one of the most competitive conferences ever. Kobe's balance between getting his teammates involved early and taking over later was reminiscent of Jordan that season. He was a great playmaker, a deadly scorer who did play unselfishly for the most part, he rebounded very well for a guard and he had his best defensive season since the 3peat.

Kobe deserved the 2008 MVP.


Chris Paul wasn't going to getthe MVP in 2008 is how the end of the season played out. The Hornets lost 4 of their last 5 games and lost HCA in the west by 1 game. That includes a game where Kobe outplayed Paul. I feel like to be an MVP, you should be able to play well when in matters. Kobe raised his game when it mattered and Paul sort of dropped off.

[bballnoob1192]

kobe definitely deserve the mvp in 2008 and in 2006.

[aj1987]

is that why you continue to respond?

look that up, you little bitch(i wont even post 2012 and 2013,he was pathetic)
Seems totally legit. Billups with more votes than a 27/6/7/2/1 player on a 52 win team. Also, Wade was top 10 in '12 and '13 as well. If top 10 is pathetic, I can't tell you how retarded you are. Go back to school, kid. If Wade wasn't an MVP candidate, he wouldn't have gotten any votes, turd. :facepalm

[SamuraiSWISH]

Playoffs have nothing to do with it :confusedshrug:
But the Playoffs are the actual meaningful validation of truly who is the best player / MVP of the league. Thus Kobe proving his case in the 2008 playoffs, by far and away. Not that CP3 wasn't amazing, just not as great as Kobe. You seriously acting like he didn't have a case for the 2008 MVP?

[PickernRoller]

People still care about this stained trophy? This day in age it means nothing.

[chazzy]

It was between Kobe/Paul/LeBron/Garnett, in that Order for me... Kobe carried the Lakers already before the Gasol trade. IMO perhaps Kobe's best season.
I still don't understand the OP

[Anaximandro1]

In the late 2000s, Kobe played extremely well. He benefited greatly from the rule changes. Kobe definitely deserved his MVP (2008). I also believe Bryant deserved both of his FMVPs (2009, 2010)

That said, Kobe had the luxury of winning three rings despite losing his individual matchups in the finals during his first ten years in the league.

People say, quite rightly, that rings as second option are irrelevant when comparing great players. Pippen never lost in the finals and has more rings than Kobe...

Shaq would have won those rings with Reggie Miller, Iverson, Carter, T Mac, Ray Allen, Kidd ...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HkfFPvSANTw/U2tO7XEIElI/AAAAAAAAC0w/4LqTQnxudbw/s1600/4.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6j_HA22NbMY/U2tO7XDjVpI/AAAAAAAAC0s/ENk_unBBSpQ/s1600/5.jpg

[PsychoBe]

In the late 2000s, Kobe played extremely well. He benefited greatly from the rule changes. Kobe definitely deserved his MVP (2008). I also believe Bryant deserved both of his FMVPs (2009, 2010)

That said, Kobe had the luxury of winning three rings despite losing his individual matchups in the finals during his first ten years in the league.

People say, quite rightly, that rings as second option are irrelevant when comparing great players. Pippen never lost in the finals and has more rings than Kobe...

Shaq would have won those rings with Reggie Miller, Iverson, Carter, T Mac, Ray Allen, Kidd ...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HkfFPvSANTw/U2tO7XEIElI/AAAAAAAAC0w/4LqTQnxudbw/s1600/4.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6j_HA22NbMY/U2tO7XDjVpI/AAAAAAAAC0s/ENk_unBBSpQ/s1600/5.jpg

none of those players aside from kidd and t-mac have the defensive versatility as kobe, and none of them have the amount of rebounding kobe does (aside from t-mac and kidd), you cant just randomly insert a player into the team's offense (which they wont be a focal point of since shaq admitted to have taken advantage of the triangle offense) and use raw numbers to try and prove a point.

kobe brought elite floor spacing, passing, defense (and defensive versatility) and he is the only player of the group who could not only score out of the post, but pass out of the post as well. he was also the only player of the group capable of completely dismantling the spurs and the kings consistently in the wcfs time after time and he was much more clutch than most of those stars ever were in their prime (i.e. in 2000 kobe carried the team to a win in the finals in ot after shaq was fouled out)

[3LiftHeatCurse]

Chris Paul deserved the MVP that season.

Kobe, in my eyes, has 0 mvp's

[DetroitPistonFan]

Chris Paul deserved the MVP that season.

Kobe, in my eyes, has 0 mvp's
No he didn't.

[LEFT4DEAD]

Kobe deserved that award, even doe it was very close with CP3 having a historically good season.

He deserved his one FMVP, other one is a toss up between him and Gasol obviously.

[ArbitraryWater]

But the Playoffs are the actual meaningful validation of truly who is the best player / MVP of the league. Thus Kobe proving his case in the 2008 playoffs, by far and away. Not that CP3 wasn't amazing, just not as great as Kobe. You seriously acting like he didn't have a case for the 2008 MVP?

I made plenty of comments in this thread saying Kobe had a case... I even said I didn't have a problem with it.

What I wrote in the OP was obviously over-stated and to play with the diehards, ultimately my point is that it was close, both had a case, and really just wanted to hear more takes on it.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe deserved that award, even doe it was very close with CP3 having a historically good season.

He deserved his one FMVP, other one is a toss up between him and Gasol obviously.

Yea pretty much. 2009 FMVP is Kobe. Got a totally different opinion about 2010... still very split. In fact, even about the run in total.

Win Shares almost never go wrong IMO... And I will repeat myself:

The only 2 Win Shares Leaders on the Finals winning team that didn't win the FMVP are: Ginobili 2005 and Gasol 2010...

[tpols]

Yea pretty much. 2009 FMVP is Kobe. Got a totally different opinion about 2010... still very split. In fact, even about the run in total.

Win Shares almost never go wrong IMO... And I will repeat myself:

The only 2 Win Shares Leaders on the Finals winning team that didn't win the FMVP are: Ginobili 2005 and Gasol 2010...

Kobe had more winshares than Shaq in 2001 for the entire playoffs...

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe had more winshares than Shaq in 2001 for the entire playoffs...

Yeah I'm talking Finals here...

None the less, Shaq was superior over the regular season and finals... If you want to make an argument for Kobe being > Shaq during the '01 playoffs, than I'd say that's one of the rare times the metric fails.

Shaq was a beast in 4/4 rounds, Kobe in 3/4...

[The Iron Sheik]

Yea pretty much. 2009 FMVP is Kobe. Got a totally different opinion about 2010... still very split. In fact, even about the run in total.

Win Shares almost never go wrong IMO... And I will repeat myself:

The only 2 Win Shares Leaders on the Finals winning team that didn't win the FMVP are: Ginobili 2005 and Gasol 2010...

why would gasol deserve the 2010 fmvp? because he arguably outplayed kobe in 1 game? that's stupid. it's like saying ray allen deserved the fmvp instead of lebron last year.

[The Iron Sheik]

Yeah I'm talking Finals here...

None the less, Shaq was superior over the regular season and finals... If you want to make an argument for Kobe being > Shaq during the '01 playoffs, than I'd say that's one of the rare times the metric fails.

Shaq was a beast in 4/4 rounds, Kobe in 3/4...

the metric is right when it falls in line with your argument, but when it doesn't, then it's just disregarded? :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

why would gasol deserve the 2010 fmvp? because he arguably outplayed kobe in 1 game? that's stupid. it's like saying ray allen deserved the fmvp instead of lebron last year.

In which game did Ray Allen outplay LeBron?


the metric is right when it falls in line with your argument, but when it doesn't, then it's just disregarded? :lol

Well thats why I said no metric is perfect.... do you have on that always works, its an Opinion, right?

So of course the metric wont change my opinion, Im just saying its on line a lot... If I dont know about a particular topic, this metric may make the edge... however, Im well informed about the 2001 run to know that Kobe was NOT superior to Shaq, the most dominant player of all time.

[tpols]

Yeah I'm talking Finals here...

None the less, Shaq was superior over the regular season and finals... If you want to make an argument for Kobe being > Shaq during the '01 playoffs, than I'd say that's one of the rare times the metric fails.

Shaq was a beast in 4/4 rounds, Kobe in 3/4...

and despite being far worse in one of the rounds, Kobes dominance out west made up the difference plus more.

The metric didnt 'fail'.. it did as it always does. I wouldnt argue it means Kobe>shaq or gasol>kobe because of it.. just looking for some consistency. I actually think its largely irrelevant.. doesnt tell you who commanded more attention or who was a catalyst in tight spots.. applies no context and is just a number made out of adding the basic stats up.

[tpols]

the metric is right when it falls in line with your argument, but when it doesn't, then it's just disregarded? :lol

:oldlol: I know right.. its bs anyways but damn.

[The Iron Sheik]

In which game did Ray Allen outplay LeBron?

hitting the shot that saved the series after lebron missed it was pretty huge. it's the same concept of gasol in game 7 of 2010: he had a couple of moments where he saved kobe, but what kobe did the entire series and even in that game 7 outweighed anything gasol did a la lebron and ray allen.



Im well informed about the 2001 run to know that Kobe was NOT superior to Shaq, the most dominant player of all time.

so you're NOT informed enough about the 2010 finals to know that gasol was NOT superior to kobe, the guy who won finals mvp?

[ArbitraryWater]

:oldlol: I know right.. its bs anyways but damn.

I explained myself on the earlier page.. take a look

[ArbitraryWater]

hitting the shot that saved the series after lebron missed it was pretty huge. it's the same concept of gasol in game 7 of 2010: he had a couple of moments where he saved kobe, but what kobe did the entire series and even in that game 7 outweighed anything gasol did a la lebron and ray allen.




so you're NOT informed enough about the 2010 finals to know that gasol was NOT superior to kobe, the guy who won finals mvp?

So you think Kobe outplayed Gasol in Game 7, and Ray Allen outplayed LeBron in Game 6?

Can I quote you on that? Who do you think played better?

[Mr Feeny]

I think everyone on ISH can agree that you are a huge fking fggt.

This. OP has swallowed more c

[tpols]

I explained myself on the earlier page.. take a look

What you explained was that despite Kobe leading the Lakers in winshares over Shaq, the fact that Shaq commanded more attention and was the hub for the team made his performance more impressive.

And if you compare that to the relationship of kobe/gasol its the same thing.. Gasol didnt see doubles like kobe and was never faced with the same level of defensive attention.. he was never the focal point. Game 7 is one game out of 20 something they played.. its 3-4% of the data. The other 97% counts..

[The Iron Sheik]

So you think Kobe outplayed Gasol in Game 7, and Ray Allen outplayed LeBron in Game 6?

Can I quote you on that? Who do you think played better?

i don't want to get off-topic but this is what i said


hitting the shot that saved the series after lebron missed it was pretty huge. it's the same concept of gasol in game 7 of 2010: he had a couple of moments where he saved kobe, but what kobe did the entire series and even in that game 7 outweighed anything gasol did a la lebron and ray allen.

what i'm saying is that it is asinine to say that gasol outplayed kobe in game 7 and deserved fmvp is like saying ray allen outplayed lebron in game 6 just because he had 1 moment where he outshined him. the point is that taking 1 moment or 1 game and extrapolating that over an entire series is stupid. not every game kobe had in the 2010 finals was like game 7 where he couldn't hit a shot. people just seem to key in on that 1 game.

[ArbitraryWater]

i don't want to get off-topic but this is what i said



what i'm saying is that it is asinine to say that gasol outplayed kobe in game 7 and deserved fmvp is like saying ray allen outplayed lebron in game 6 just because he had 1 moment where he outshined him. the point is that taking 1 moment or 1 game and extrapolating that over an entire series is stupid. not every game kobe had in the 2010 finals was like game 7 where he couldn't hit a shot. people just seem to key in on that 1 game.

Can you just tell me who played better? This is ISH, ffs

Game 7 2010: Gasol or Kobe, who played better during the entire game
Game 6 2013, Ray Allen or LeBron James, who played better during the entire game

[The Iron Sheik]

Can you just tell me who played better? This is ISH, ffs

Game 7 2010: Gasol or Kobe, who played better during the entire game

all in all i'd say kobe


Game 6 2013, Ray Allen or LeBron James, who played better during the entire game

all things considered it's lebron

both kobe and lebron deserved their finals mvps. pretty straightfoward

[guy]

you're oversimplifying the argument.. Kobe was not dealt a bad hand by any means.. but as far as a discussion about MVPs go, his career just wasnt set up for him to win as many.

Kobe played with prime Shaq for almost half his career. Its very hard to win MVPs when you're playing next to another extremely dominant player. Which is why Shaq only has one MVP as well despite being so dominant.. cuz he had Kobe. The media would rather give it to a underdog who carries his team past expectations ala Iverson in 2001 or Rose in 2011 than the true best, most impactful player in the league.

The Shaq argument is so overexaggerated as usual. First off, from 97-00 Kobe wasn't an MVP-level player. That has little to do with anyone but Kobe himself.

Then in 01, he missed way too many games anyway. What does that have to do with Shaq?

In 02, your argument can apply here.

In 03, Kobe was basically given the green light to do what he wanted. 30/7/6 are clearly MVP numbers with a 10 game 40+ point win streak somewhere in there. The offense was going more through Kobe then it ever did before. He mainly lost the MVP because Duncan was just better, leading his team to 10 more wins without relatively that much help.

In 04, he again missed way too many games.

So really, out of his 8 years with Shaq, you can really point to 1 season, 2002, where playing with Shaq might've been the reason he didn't win an MVP taking into account his stats might've been better. But even with that being said, they may have also lost more games even if you did replace Shaq's production with someone i.e. Webber or Gasol, plus Duncan was still leading his team to 58 wins without an all-star and having the best statistical season of his career. So good chance he woudn't win anyway.




Lebron faced a similar situation his first year in Miami.. they just werent going to give him an MVP award while playing next to a prime Wade. It was only when Wade declined that he was allowed that recognition again.

Completely disagree. He lost the MVP mainly because he and his team were completely terrible in the clutch and at closing games out, they had losing records against the best teams specifically the Bulls and Celtics, and the Bulls had the better record and Derrick Rose and the Bulls were the complete opposite of that because they both were actually great at closing games out and had a great record against the best teams. If Lebron and the Heat had the same success as they did in 2012 and 2013 with Wade still having the same season he had in 2011, which was completely possible because Lebron actually took about the same amount of shots in those years as he did in 2011 (the main difference was who was their go-to guy at the end of games), then Lebron still would've won MVP.



If Kobe played his prime from 2001 to 2010 w/ a guy like chris webber, or pau, or lamarcus aldridge or something and he had B to B+ supporting casts throughout all those years, he wouldve gotten a handful more MVPs than if he went from playing with A+ supporting casts..where his help is deemed 'too much'.. then D supporting casts, where he cant reach the required win total.. than B+ supporting casts only at the very end of the prime.

If Kobe had Pau from 06 to 08 he mightve won 3 MVPs in a row..

So basically if Kobe got to play with the 2008 Lakers during that whole time, only difference being Kobe still playing at the same level as he was actually playing in those years? Lets play this game then.

In 01, 04, 05 he just missed too many games. In 02 and 03, Duncan would've arguably just been better, and I don't see the Lakers winning more games then the Spurs did those seasons, which is what happened in real life with Shaq on the team. In 09 and 10, what actually happened would've just happened, Lebron would've just been better doing alot with not much. In 07, you can argue he would've won it over Dirk, but Dirk did lead a relatively mediocre team to 67 wins, and the argument might just come down to wins (if the 08 Lakers played in 07, I still see the Mavs getting the #1 seed. Even if the competition was better in 08, I don't see the Lakers winning 9 more games in 07 then they did in 08). I can see him winning in 06 and 08. So sure, he'd have more MVPs but so what? As many MVPs as Jordan and Lebron have, had they had ideal circumstances for their whole career i.e. Jordan had Pippen at a star level his whole career and Lebron had a healthy star-level Wade his whole career, they'd still win more MVPs too.

No players have had ideal circumstances to win MVP their whole career. The bigger reasons Kobe didn't win more MVPs is because he had injuries in some years and also there were just better overall players in some other years i.e. Duncan, Lebron.

Not to mention, the Lakers generally coasted more in the regular season then Jordan or Lebron teams. When Shaq+Kobe were together, they only had the best record in the league and even the West for 1 season. After that, the Lakers actually never had the best record in the league, and had the best record in the West for 3 seasons. Compare that to Jordan who led his team to the best record in the league 4 seasons and in the East for 5 seasons, and to Lebron who has already led his team to the best record in the league for 3 seasons in the East for 3 seasons, (while both being generally statistically superior) and its not that surprising that there's such a wide disparity in MVPs there.

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe was hands down the best player in the world in 08 and 09. Bronze was looking up to Kobe in awe of his greatness. Much like Kobe did with MJ.I doubt you were watching the NBA in 2009 if u think Kobe was on Lebrons' s level that season. Lebron was arguably the greatest offensive AND defensive player on the planet at that point.
This isn't really a debate for most people.

[ImKobe]

I doubt you were watching the NBA in 2009 if u think Kobe was on Lebrons' s level that season. Lebron was arguably the greatest offensive AND defensive player on the planet at that point.
This isn't really a debate for most people.

Lebron himself admitted that Kobe was the better player in 09...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84

"better than you?"
"I would have to say right now"

straight out of Lebron's mouth in 2009.

How many GOAt-caliber players during their peak years would admit that someone's better than them?

[tpols]

The Shaq argument is so overexaggerated as usual. First off, from 97-00 Kobe wasn't an MVP-level player. That has little to do with anyone but Kobe himself.

Then in 01, he missed way too many games anyway. What does that have to do with Shaq?

In 02, your argument can apply here.

In 03, Kobe was basically given the green light to do what he wanted. 30/7/6 are clearly MVP numbers with a 10 game 40+ point win streak somewhere in there. The offense was going more through Kobe then it ever did before. He mainly lost the MVP because Duncan was just better, leading his team to 10 more wins without relatively that much help.

In 04, he again missed way too many games.

So really, out of his 8 years with Shaq, you can really point to 1 season, 2002, where playing with Shaq might've been the reason he didn't win an MVP taking into account his stats might've been better. But even with that being said, they may have also lost more games even if you did replace Shaq's production with someone i.e. Webber or Gasol, plus Duncan was still leading his team to 58 wins without an all-star and having the best statistical season of his career. So good chance he woudn't win anyway.




Completely disagree. He lost the MVP mainly because he and his team were completely terrible in the clutch and at closing games out, they had losing records against the best teams specifically the Bulls and Celtics, and the Bulls had the better record and Derrick Rose and the Bulls were the complete opposite of that because they both were actually great at closing games out and had a great record against the best teams. If Lebron and the Heat had the same success as they did in 2012 and 2013 with Wade still having the same season he had in 2011, which was completely possible because Lebron actually took about the same amount of shots in those years as he did in 2011 (the main difference was who was their go-to guy at the end of games), then Lebron still would've won MVP.



So basically if Kobe got to play with the 2008 Lakers during that whole time, only difference being Kobe still playing at the same level as he was actually playing in those years? Lets play this game then.

In 01, 04, 05 he just missed too many games. In 02 and 03, Duncan would've arguably just been better, and I don't see the Lakers winning more games then the Spurs did those seasons, which is what happened in real life with Shaq on the team. In 09 and 10, what actually happened would've just happened, Lebron would've just been better doing alot with not much. In 07, you can argue he would've won it over Dirk, but Dirk did lead a relatively mediocre team to 67 wins, and the argument might just come down to wins (if the 08 Lakers played in 07, I still see the Mavs getting the #1 seed. Even if the competition was better in 08, I don't see the Lakers winning 9 more games in 07 then they did in 08). I can see him winning in 06 and 08. So sure, he'd have more MVPs but so what? As many MVPs as Jordan and Lebron have, had they had ideal circumstances for their whole career i.e. Jordan had Pippen at a star level his whole career and Lebron had a healthy star-level Wade his whole career, they'd still win more MVPs too.

No players have had ideal circumstances to win MVP their whole career. The bigger reasons Kobe didn't win more MVPs is because he had injuries in some years and also there were just better overall players in some other years i.e. Duncan, Lebron.

Not to mention, the Lakers generally coasted more in the regular season then Jordan or Lebron teams. When Shaq+Kobe were together, they only had the best record in the league and even the West for 1 season. After that, the Lakers actually never had the best record in the league, and had the best record in the West for 3 seasons. Compare that to Jordan who led his team to the best record in the league 4 seasons and in the East for 5 seasons, and to Lebron who has already led his team to the best record in the league for 3 seasons in the East for 3 seasons, (while both being generally statistically superior) and its not that surprising that there's such a wide disparity in MVPs there.

even if we go by your criteria for missed games, he's got a shot in 02, 03, 06, 07, and 08 if he's playing next to a pau level player his whole career. Someone whose just good enough to provide great second option help but not a true superstar like Shaq was where he could never win it while playing with him(and arguably no one else in history as well since his peak has a case for MDE). So thats 4 chances at an MVP he missed because his team was too good at one point and way too weak at another.


And of course we dont know how 04 and 05 would play out with a pau-like player because the fued between shaq and kobe is what turned both those years into down years. That type of implosion never existed between Kobe and odom/pau/etc. so there's no reason to believe everything wouldve happened as it did in a completely different situation.

[Mr Feeny]

Lebron himself admitted that Kobe was the better player in 09...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84

"better than you?"
"I would have to say right now"

straight out of Lebron's mouth in 2009.

How many GOAt-caliber players during their peak years would admit that someone's better than them?

Magic said 1986 Jordan was better than him; I suppose we would take that seriously then?
A second year unpolished MJ?

[aj1987]

@tpols, do you honestly believe that a SG like Wade wouldn't have replicated the results (obviously if he was healthy) with a peak Shaq? Heck, Wade would've won in '03 and '04 as well.

[mehyaM24]

Seems totally legit. Billups with more votes than a 27/6/7/2/1 player on a 52 win team. Also, Wade was top 10 in '12 and '13 as well. If top 10 is pathetic, I can't tell you how retarded you are. Go back to school, kid. If Wade wasn't an MVP candidate, he wouldn't have gotten any votes, turd. :facepalm

i thought you werent responding to my posts? :cheers:

and no, it is pathetic when morons like yourself parade around here claiming wade was/is ever on lebron and kobe's or any of the consistent top 5 candidates for MVP.

being "top 10" in the MVP race doesnt mean youre a LEGIT candidate LOL. top 5 is where you're seriously getting recognition. just look at the votes

[aj1987]

i thought you werent responding to my posts? :cheers:

and no, it is pathetic when morons like yourself parade around here claiming wade was/is ever on lebron and kobe's or any of the consistent top 5 candidates for MVP.

being "top 10" in the MVP race doesnt mean youre a LEGIT candidate LOL. top 5 is where you're seriously getting recognition. just look at the votes
You honestly do not know how basketball works, do you? Why am I even bothering with you?

There's a reason why people hate on LeBron for teaming up with Wade. Wade was considered to be on his level and a top 3 player in the league. If you honestly believe that Wade wasn't a top 5 player in '06, '09, '10, and '11, you're an idiot (you are one anyways). Dude was arguably top 5 in '12 and '13 (excluding playoffs) as well.

[mehyaM24]

You honestly do not know how basketball works, do you? Why am I even bothering with you?

There's a reason why people hate on LeBron for teaming up with Wade. Wade was considered to be on his level and a top 3 player in the league. If you honestly believe that Wade wasn't a top 5 player in '06, '09, '10, and '11, you're an idiot (you are one anyways). Dude was arguably top 5 in '12 and '13 (excluding playoffs) as well.

you keep repeating yourself :oldlol: thats about the 5th time you've responded to me after saying you werent going to.

cant get enough of me or what brah?


and no, the reason people "hated" is because wade WAS a top 3 sg in the league. that doesnt exactly mean much when you also had a top 3-5 PF as well.....

emphasis on WAS because wade is at the bottom of the barrel these days when SGs are concerned.

the voters that have watched basketball longer than you or i agreed that wade, for 90% of his career, wasn't a legit MVP candidate.

im not sure why you're struggling with this consensus FACT :confusedshrug:

[aj1987]

you keep repeating yourself :oldlol: thats about the 5th time you've responded to me after saying you werent going to.

cant get enough of me or what brah?
You are talking about basketball and I'm responding. You brought up facts and I can respect that. You usually are a complete retard though.


and no, the reason people "hated" is because wade WAS a top 3 sg in the league. that doesnt exactly mean much when you also had a top 3-5 PF as well.....
Case in point, as to why you're a little shit with no brains. Wade has never been the 3rd best SG in the league. Sure, some people might pick Haren, but anyone who wants to win will pick Wade. Dude plays on both sides of the court.


emphasis on WAS because wade is at the bottom of the barrel these days when SGs are concerned.
:oldlol:

Dude just had a 19/5/5/2/1 on 54% season.


the voters that have watched basketball longer than you or i agreed that wade, for 90% of his career, wasn't a legit MVP candidate.
Sportswriters who voted for Melo last season? The same idiots who gave Nash 2 MVP's or gave AI an MVP over Shaq?


I know you're trolling, 'cause no one can be this retarded. Try harder dude.

[ArbitraryWater]

Sportswriters who voted for Melo last season? The same idiots who gave Nash 2 MVP's or gave AI an MVP over Shaq?


I know you're trolling, 'cause no one can be this retarded. Try harder dude.


Yeah, AI was mad hype...

But in all fairness to Nash, it was very circumstantial. Who else? Sure Shaq had an argument in 2005 and Dirk in 2006, but nothing too blatantly wrong...

LeBron and Kobe played on bad teams that didn't make the playoffs in 2005, Garnett played on a bad team that missed the playoffs both years.
Duncan controlled his minutes as he played 34 MPG and just exited his peak, while playing on a better team. (Meh close)

[Mr Feeny]

i thought you werent responding to my posts? :cheers:

and no, it is pathetic when morons like yourself parade around here claiming wade was/is ever on lebron and kobe's or any of the consistent top 5 candidates for MVP.

being "top 10" in the MVP race doesnt mean youre a LEGIT candidate LOL. top 5 is where you're seriously getting recognition. just look at the votes

Wade was certainly on Kobe's level then. Arguably better. Lebron, we agree, was consistently better bar the 2006 postseason ans possibly the 2009 regular season.

[Mr Feeny]

@tpols, do you honestly believe that a SG like Wade wouldn't have replicated the results (obviously if he was healthy) with a peak Shaq? Heck, Wade would've won in '03 and '04 as well.It's baffling isnt it?
Wade won a title with a scrub over the hill Shaq. Just how many he would have won with peak Shaq is scary to even fsthom.

[Hey Yo]

It's baffling isnt it?
Wade won a title with a scrub over the hill Shaq. Just how many he would have won with peak Shaq is scary to even fsthom.
Shaq was declining but far from a scrub in 2005.

[Mr Feeny]

Shaq was declining but far from a scrub in 2005.

They didn't win it in 2005 though. They won it in 06 when even Alonzo played better than Shaq when he was used in the finals. Case in point - the championship clinching game.
Relatively scrub-like, I should have said. Relative to MDE Shaquille.

[Rooster]

They didn't win it in 2005 though. They won it in 06 when even Alonzo played better than Shaq when he was used in the finals. Case in point - the championship clinching game.
Relatively scrub-like, I should have said. Relative to MDE Shaquille.

I'm still wondering what happened to Miami after that scrub Shaq left. :oldlol:

[Mr Feeny]

I'm still wondering what happened to Miami after that scrub Shaq left. :oldlol:

They struggled WITH Shaq in 2007 and half of 2008 because of Wade's injuries. Thry got rid of the old guard - Shaq, Payton, Posey, Williams, Walker and retooled eyeing the 2010 free agency. The rest, as they say, is history.

[RagaZ]

wow,...... OP needs a new hobby.
Nothing to do in Germany.

[Mr Feeny]

Nothing to do in Germany.

Bayern, Dortmund and Shalke all got annihilated in the UCL.
Rafa is going to kiss the French Open goodbye in a couple of weeks.
And Dallas (supposedly supports them) are out of the playoffs.

He's on suicide watch. Throwing his toys out of the pram.

[guy]

even if we go by your criteria for missed games, he's got a shot in 02, 03, 06, 07, and 08 if he's playing next to a pau level player his whole career. Someone whose just good enough to provide great second option help but not a true superstar like Shaq was where he could never win it while playing with him(and arguably no one else in history as well since his peak has a case for MDE). So thats 4 chances at an MVP he missed because his team was too good at one point and way too weak at another.

Well, like I said, I disagree on 03. Kobe was given the green light, and I think if that he just led his teams to more wins like Duncan did, it would've been an incredibly tight race between the two, even with Shaq on the team. But whatever, even with that being the case, you think Jordan and Lebron didn't have to deal with the same thing? Jordan was a great enough player to contend for an MVP in 85, 87, 88, and 89 but had shitty supporting casts. Lebron in 06, 07, 08, and 09 was a great enough player to contend for an MVP but had shitty supporting casts. And yes, obviously Jordan still won in 88 and Lebron won in 09, but that was despite their shitty teammates. I'm not going to say they were quality supporting casts just because Jordan and Lebron were able to elevate those shitty teammates into that type of success.

So I guess it comes down to how many chances did they have where they were great enough to contend for MVP, played enough games and where there team wasn't too good but wasn't too bad either i.e. your criteria. For Jordan, I guess he had 7 chances from 90-93 and 96-98. For Lebron I guess you can say he's had 5 chances so far, 2010-2014 (yes I think he had enough in his last season in Cleveland). For Kobe, not including 03, I'd say he's had 6 chances so far, 08-13. I'd say he was past his prime after 2010, but so was Jordan from 96-98 and I don't think Lebron will just stop being an MVP candidate once he's past his prime in a few years, so I don't see why we shouldn't include those years.

So really, like I said, Kobe not winning more MVPs is more because of him just missing games and other players were just better. Multiple years where the makeup of the team was the issue is something that almost every superstar had to face, including Jordan and Lebron.



And of course we dont know how 04 and 05 would play out with a pau-like player because the fued between shaq and kobe is what turned both those years into down years. That type of implosion never existed between Kobe and odom/pau/etc. so there's no reason to believe everything wouldve happened as it did in a completely different situation.

I'm not sure whats your point here? Yes, I know things wouldn't just automatically stay the same, but Kobe missed those games in those years cause of injuries. What does that have to do with Shaq? Are you saying maybe he wouldn't have gotten injured? Sure. He could've also gotten injured another year. Am I supposed to just assume he wouldn't have gotten injured and missed games? Doesn't make sense. In fact if he doesn't get to share as much of the load with someone like Shaq, he might've gotten more injuries.

[mehyaM24]

You are talking about basketball and I'm responding. You brought up facts and I can respect that. You usually are a complete retard though.

i brought up facts that you have yet to counter. keep repeating yourself though.


Case in point, as to why you're a little shit with no brains. Wade has never been the 3rd best SG in the league. Sure, some people might pick Haren, but anyone who wants to win will pick Wade. Dude plays on both sides of the court.

top 2-3. whatever. iverson and mcgrady all had legit cases over wade.


Dude just had a 19/5/5/2/1 on 54% season.

which is good for.....NOT a top 5 spot in mvp voting. :oldlol:


Sportswriters who voted for Melo last season? The same idiots who gave Nash 2 MVP's or gave AI an MVP over Shaq?

melo was never top 5 though. nash won his mvps because a) his teams record and b) guy was one of the greatest offensive players ever.

shaq made his mark in the postseason. dude let kobe do his thing in the rs, a documented fact.

2005 and 2006 nash had more impact than dwhistle EVER has