Standarts for Greatness in the Finals

[ArbitraryWater]

Just popped my mind when I was seing ImKobe's comment about Kobe's finals play.

Let me end this. Kobe is not a good finals performer, and LeBron is no doubt the better player once we hit that stage.


Had a bad game 1 in the 2001 Finals with his 7-22 shooting, next 4 games averages 27/9/6/2/1 on 44/33/84 shooting, which are superstar numbers.



The standart for Kobe is extremely low... We are cutting 1 game off here, and he still comes out shooting an inefficient and low 44%..... He has never, not once, had a LEGENDARY & DOMINANT Finals series....

In fact, realistically he's had 1 good finals series out of 7. (2002)

36% in the 2000 NBA Finals (won)
41% in the 2001 NBA Finals (won)
54% in the 2002 NBA Finals (won)
38% in the 2004 NBA Finals (lost)
40% in the 2008 NBA Finals (lost)
43% in the 2009 NBA Finals (won)
41% in the 2010 NBA Finals (won)

The only way you get away with this scoring efficiency, AS A SCORER, is if you deliver some amazing all around stats, playmaking, defense, leadership, clutch scoring, turning the series in big games or outplaying the opponent, all to hustle balls....

None of that has happened, outside of 2009.

In 2000 he was outplayed by Austin Croshere

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTgObyJCQAA_Cdz.jpg

Game 5 v. Indiana - 8 points 4-20 FG 20% 0-0 FT (Pathetic performance, shot the team out of the contest. Shaq meanwhile had 35 & 11.)

Game 6 v. Indiana - 26 points 8-27 FG 30% (after a dismal game 5 performace where LA got routed Kobe decides its time for him to shoot more. 8/27 29.6% his bad shooting made it a close game. Shaq meanwhile delivered, 41 points 12 rebounds and 4 blocks earning himself Finals MVP Honors.)

I could go this down through all 7 of his finals appearances, so instead I focused on finding the GREAT games...

The thing with Kobe, Kobe's never had these start-to-end/finish great series'.

What Jordan did for entire Finals series', 1991-1993, every single Game, Kobe did for one performance only...
He brought it for one game, because he couldn't for the entire series. For one game we see what he can do at his best. That's inconsistency.

Finals:
2000 G4 vs Pacers: 28 Points on 52% (Shaq out - takeover in the clutch) 2001 G3 vs Sixers: 31/8/6/2/2 on 48%
2002 G3 vs Nets: 36 Points on 60%
2004 G2 vs Pistons: 33 Points 7 Assists on 52% (GT 3, OT Win)
2008 G3 vs Celtics: 36 Points on 60%
2009 G1 vs Magic: 40/8/8/2/2 on 47%
2010 G5 vs Celtics: 38 Points on 48% (17 straight team points w/o miss to start the first 6 minutes of the 3rd Q).

Those are 7 dominant, all time great worthy, games.

The rest consists of mediocre play. And that's how it's been with Kobe. He toar the WCF up in 2001, 2008, 2009 and 2010.... I expected him to have huge finals series' every year, but they didn't came around.
It's no coincedence some of his best stats have been in 4 game series', ala 2001 Spurs/2002 Nets. The longer the series goes on, the more games to play, the more his production drops... Kobe was on the verge of some great runs in multiple years, and his production fell off hard, every time the 4th round said halo. He's never quite imposed his will on teams like other greats have done before.

Now yeah, I know as well that LeBron's only had 1 finals series of such caliber, in in 2012.
2013 Finals, 25/11/7 on 45%, meh efficiency...
But what makes this another great finals series is the amazing all-around game, fantastic defense on the opponent's best player; holding Parker to 6-26 23% in game 6 and 3-12 25% in game 7 and the stellar big game play, capped off by a legendary game 7 of 37 points on 52% to go along with 12 rebounds. Tying the record for most points scored in a finals game 7 and a huge championship sealing shot to go up 4 with 28 seconds remaining.... and that's the difference. And believe me, LeBron ain't done with it, there's more to come, and I fully expect that to start this year, in about 3 weeks.


PS: Inbefore the Kobe Kids come in with "didnt read lol" Of course not, your boy is getting busted.

[StephHamann]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nj04ygO1s5o/UrykjCvtl5I/AAAAAAAAPg4/9NOXpGFbhRU/s1600/op-in-his-thread.gif

[ArbitraryWater]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nj04ygO1s5o/UrykjCvtl5I/AAAAAAAAPg4/9NOXpGFbhRU/s1600/op-in-his-thread.gif

Too much truth :confusedshrug:

[robert_shaww]

http://static3.fjcdn.com/comments/Relax+either+this+guy+is+a+destiny+level+troll+or+ _ede15363f6b6610da45080595a33740c.jpg

[AnaheimLakers24]

didnt read :hammertime: :dancin :violin:

[ImKobe]

Who cares about Kobe's fg% if we won the damn thing. his 2001, 2009 & 2010 Finals fg% is lowered because he had one terrible shooting night in each of those series, but we won those games anyway so I don't care.

2009 Finals, Kobe put up 30+ pts and 7+ assists, first time someone did that since 1991 MJ, how is that not an all-time great Finals series?


Lebron does the same thing in his NBA Finals series and no one brings them up... 2007 Finals gets completely locked down, shoots 36% and has 6 Turnovers per game = oh he was just young blah blah blah
2011 Finals averages 18 ppg on 48% shooting
2012 Finals shoots 47%
2013 Finals shoots 45%

Kobe was never known as a 50% scorer, so the standard should be his career average, which is 45%. His fg% dips by 2-3% in most of his Finals series, is even much higher in one of them. Lebron's FG% for example has always been lower in the Finals, last year it dipped by 12%. Kobe is more consistent than Lebron if you're looking at percentages that way, as he produces at about the same rate he always does while Lebron often does not, as it was evidenced in the Finals last season, when his poor shooting in 4 out the first 5 Finals games put his team in position to lose in 6 games at his home floor.

Kobe won 5 out of 7 Finals and he's the most accomplished basketball player of his era, he won more and went to more Finals than Shaq & Duncan, though Duncan still has a shot to close in on Kobe this year. Why do people still hate on him?

Kobe's easily the most accomplished Laker ever with his longetivity and the consistency of his production up to the end of last season and he's only missed the Playoffs once in his entire career (this season does not count).

Easily top 5 all-time right now.

[SexSymbol]

Just popped my mind when I was seing ImKobe's comment about Kobe's finals play.

Let me end this. Kobe is not a good finals performer, and LeBron is no doubt the better player once we hit that stage.




The standart for Kobe is extremely low... We are cutting 1 game off here, and he still comes out shooting an inefficient and low 44%..... He has never, not once, had a LEGENDARY & DOMINANT Finals series....

In fact, realistically he's had 1 good finals series out of 7. (2002)

36% in the 2000 NBA Finals (won)
41% in the 2001 NBA Finals (won)
54% in the 2002 NBA Finals (won)
38% in the 2004 NBA Finals (lost)
40% in the 2008 NBA Finals (lost)
43% in the 2009 NBA Finals (won)
41% in the 2010 NBA Finals (won)

The only way you get away with this scoring efficiency, AS A SCORER, is if you deliver some amazing all around stats, playmaking, defense, leadership, clutch scoring, turning the series in big games or outplaying the opponent, all to hustle balls....

None of that has happened, outside of 2009.

In 2000 he was outplayed by Austin Croshere

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTgObyJCQAA_Cdz.jpg

Game 5 v. Indiana - 8 points 4-20 FG 20% 0-0 FT (Pathetic performance, shot the team out of the contest. Shaq meanwhile had 35 & 11.)

Game 6 v. Indiana - 26 points 8-27 FG 30% (after a dismal game 5 performace where LA got routed Kobe decides its time for him to shoot more. 8/27 29.6% his bad shooting made it a close game. Shaq meanwhile delivered, 41 points 12 rebounds and 4 blocks earning himself Finals MVP Honors.)

I could go this down through all 7 of his finals appearances, so instead I focused on finding the GREAT games...

The thing with Kobe, Kobe's never had these start-to-end/finish great series'.

What Jordan did for entire Finals series', 1991-1993, every single Game, Kobe did for one performance only...
He brought it for one game, because he couldn't for the entire series. For one game we see what he can do at his best. That's inconsistency.

Finals:
2000 G4 vs Pacers: 28 Points on 52% (Shaq out - takeover in the clutch) 2001 G3 vs Sixers: 31/8/6/2/2 on 48%
2002 G3 vs Nets: 36 Points on 60%
2004 G2 vs Pistons: 33 Points 7 Assists on 52% (GT 3, OT Win)
2008 G3 vs Celtics: 36 Points on 60%
2009 G1 vs Magic: 40/8/8/2/2 on 47%
2010 G5 vs Celtics: 38 Points on 48% (17 straight team points w/o miss to start the first 6 minutes of the 3rd Q).

Those are 7 dominant, all time great worthy, games.

The rest consists of mediocre play. And that's how it's been with Kobe. He toar the WCF up in 2001, 2008, 2009 and 2010.... I expected him to have huge finals series' every year, but they didn't came around.
It's no coincedence some of his best stats have been in 4 game series', ala 2001 Spurs/2002 Nets. The longer the series goes on, the more games to play, the more his production drops... Kobe was on the verge of some great runs in multiple years, and his production fell off hard, every time the 4th round said halo. He's never quite imposed his will on teams like other greats have done before.

Now yeah, I know as well that LeBron's only had 1 such finals series of the caliber I'm talking about, in 2012. However, when we point out the 2013 Finals, we realize with 25/11/7 on 45%, the efficiency is meh, but what makes this another great finals series is the amazing all-around game, fantastic defense on the opponent's best player; holding Parker to 6-26 23% in game 6 and 3-12 25% in game 7 , and the stellar big game play, capped off by a legendary game 7 of 37 points on 52% to go along with 12 rebounds, tying the record for most points scored in a finals game 7; and a huge championship sealing shot to go up 4 with 28 seconds remaining.... and that's the difference. And believe me, LeBron ain't done with it, there's more to come, and I fully expect that to start this year, in about 3 weeks.


PS: Inbefore the Kobe Kids come in with "didnt read lol" Of course not, your boy is getting busted.

You really think that FG% is an indication of dominance?
Have you ever played basketball? Like really, not just shoot the thing, but organised ball?
Kobe's 01, 02, 09, 10 finals are very good to great.
The fact that you mention LeBron as a better finals performer is laughable, obvious stan'ism.
Be objective, it will take you a long way in life, you'll see

[ImKobe]

You really think that FG% is an indication of dominance?
Have you ever played basketball? Like really, not just shoot the thing, but organised ball?
Kobe's 01, 02, 09, 10 finals are very good to great.
The fact that you mention LeBron as a better finals performer is laughable, obvious stan'ism.
Be objective, it will take you a long way in life, you'll see

Lebron is a medicore Finals performer by all-time great standards. lost 2 out of 4 Finals, never shot above 50% in a Finals series (Kobe has done that) never averaged 30+ ppg for a Finals series...lost a Finals series on his home court twice, both were close games that he choked in.

[ArbitraryWater]

Efficiency once again being underrated :facepalm

His Scoring doesn't have any Impact when it comes at a 40% clip, you Idiots.

How big was KD's Scoring Impact through 5 Games against the Grizzlies, averaging 28 PPG.... 28, that's good, on 40%.

Attempted 25 Shots, made 10, missed 15...

That's not NEGATIVE Impact?
You want to tell me that's positive Impact as far as scoring the ball goes?

Just answer it. Simple question.

[robert_shaww]

Lebron is a medicore Finals performer by all-time great standards. lost 2 out of 4 Finals, never shot above 50% in a Finals series (Kobe has done that) never averaged 30+ ppg for a Finals series...lost a Finals series on his home court twice, both were close games that he choked in.

and ray allen saved him in 1 of his wins.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Kobe has always been one of the, or even arguable the worst, Finals performers out of any superstar. Really. he only had about two good showings out of 7. The fact that he still won 5 titles speaks volumes about how lucky he has been to be on great teams for the majority of his career.

[ImKobe]

Kobe has always been one of the, or even arguable the worst, Finals performers out of any superstar. Really. he only had about two good showings out of 7. The fact that he still won 5 titles speaks volumes about how lucky he has been to be on great teams for the majority of his career.

Lebron James arguably had the two worst Finals series by any superstar in 2007 & 2011 & needed Chris Bosh to rebound two of his bricks in the last 30 seconds and needed Ray Allen to hit a miracle 3 and needed Duncan to miss a wide open layup.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Lebron James arguably had the two worst Finals series by any superstar in 2007 & 2011 & needed Chris Bosh to rebound two of his bricks in the last 30 seconds and needed Ray Allen to hit a miracle 3 and needed Duncan to miss a wide open layup.

I've already said many before times that Lebron has been a pretty mediocre finals performer. Still better than Kobe though :confusedshrug:

[ImKobe]

I've already said many before times that Lebron has been a pretty mediocre finals performer. Still better than Kobe though :confusedshrug:

How is he better if he's 2 out of 4 in the NBA Finals and had the worst choke ever in 2011?

Lebron's best Finals series doesn't even register in Kobe's top 3.

[ArbitraryWater]

How is he better if he's 2 out of 4 in the NBA Finals and had the worst choke ever in 2011?

Lebron's best Finals series doesn't even register in Kobe's top 3.

:roll: :roll:

LeBron's had 2 chokes, Kobe's had 5 horrible series'... LOL at 2011 being worse than Kobe and 2010.

2012 >> 2002.

[ArbitraryWater]

Efficiency once again being underrated :facepalm

His Scoring doesn't have any Impact when it comes at a 40% clip, you Idiots.

How big was KD's Scoring Impact through 5 Games against the Grizzlies, averaging 28 PPG.... 28, that's good, on 40%.

Attempted 25 Shots, made 10, missed 15...

That's not NEGATIVE Impact?
You want to tell me that's positive Impact as far as scoring the ball goes?

Just answer it. Simple question.


No Takers? Can someone answer the ****in' question?

KD was getting mad heat, in talk for worst MVP 1st-Round Series ever, on the edge of being eliminated... so, was his Impact positive?

[Marlo_Stanfield]

everyone knows kobe is a disgusting individual and overrated volume chucker.
realyl nothign new here but thanks for the reminder:rockon: :rockon:

[ImKobe]

:roll: :roll:

LeBron's had 2 chokes, Kobe's had 5 horrible series'... LOL at 2011 being worse than Kobe and 2010.

2012 >> 2002.

Kobe: 5

Lebron: 2

5 >>> 2

[ImKobe]

everyone knows kobe is a disgusting individual and overrated volume chucker.
realyl nothign new here but thanks for the reminder:rockon: :rockon:

nearly 7,000 posts in 4 months :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[HoopsFanNumero1]

How is he better if he's 2 out of 4 in the NBA Finals and had the worst choke ever in 2011?

Lebron's best Finals series doesn't even register in Kobe's top 3.

He's 2 out of 4 because if he plays bad, his team usually loses. Not so with Kobe. Like I explained, he has only had about 2 good showings in the Finals and his team still won 5 times.

[ImKobe]

He's 2 out of 4 because if he plays bad, his team usually loses. Not so with Kobe. Like I explained, he has only had about 2 good showings in the Finals and his team still won 5 times.

Get your facts straight and then PM me.

[Hey Yo]

Kobe: 5

Lebron: 2

5 >>> 2
LeBron playing for a historical garbage franchise for his first 7yrs, > Kobe "don't draft me Calipari, I won't sign with the Nets I'll only play for the Lakers"

[LAZERUSS]

Chamberlain shot .559 from the field in his six Finals, and he held his oppsoing centers, all of them in the HOF, to a .439 FG% in them. And yes, in those six series, he outscored them, and crushed them on the glass.

GOAT.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe: 5

Lebron: 2

5 >>> 2


Efficiency once again being underrated :facepalm

His Scoring doesn't have any Impact when it comes at a 40% clip, you Idiots.

How big was KD's Scoring Impact through 5 Games against the Grizzlies, averaging 28 PPG.... 28, that's good, on 40%.

Attempted 25 Shots, made 10, missed 15...

KD was getting mad heat, in talk for worst MVP 1st-Round Series ever, on the edge of being eliminated...

That's not NEGATIVE Impact?
You want to tell me that's positive Impact as far as scoring the ball goes?

Just answer it. Simple question.

Can you?

[AnaheimLakers24]

pity bump

[ImKobe]

LeBron playing for a historical garbage franchise for his first 7yrs, > Kobe "don't draft me Calipari, I won't sign with the Nets I'll only play for the Lakers"

That is false. Kobe wouldn't have been drafted at 13 had the Lakers not traded for the pick. Hornets didn't need a SG anyways and neither did the Lakers, but Jerry West saw the potential in Kobe and thought he was worth a Vlade Divac, so he traded for the pick to get Kobe.

Hornets had a prime Glen Rice playing 40 mpg and Dell Curry was still a decent SG, they wouldn't have drafted another shooting guard at 13, I think they would have drafted Peja or Jermaine O'Neal, because they needed to upgrade their front court because Larry Johnson left Charlotte. Both Peja and Jermaine were more NBA ready at that time, while Kobe was still 17 years old. Maybe they would have even gone for Nash, because Muggsy missed basically the whole season and Anderson was constantly out.

And I doubt Kobe would have refused to play for the Hornets had the Lakers not wanted him and had the Hornets picked him because they had a pretty solid team. Kobe would have been drafted to a 40+ win team that added Anthony Mason, who was beasting for them and Glen Rice, who was becoming a big star in the league, Hornets won 54 games the following season.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt in his two game seven's in the Finals...shot .708 from the field. Compare that with Duncan's two game seven's of .400. Or Hakeem's game seven of .400. Or Kobe's .250. Or Kareem's .480 in his three game seven's.

GOAT.

[J Shuttlesworth]

OP speaking the truth :rockon: Repped

[ImKobe]

Can you?


5 out of 7 is more efficient than 2 out of 4.

[ImKobe]

Wilt in his two game seven's in the Finals...shot .708 from the field. Compare that with Duncan's two game seven's of .400. Or Hakeem's game seven of .400. Or Kobe's .250. Or Kareem's .480 in his three game seven's.

GOAT.

Because one game defines a career when GOAT-level players play around a thousand.

[bukowski81]

Efficiency is the lamest meassure of a player greatness, and players that are comstantly worried about their efficiency are just as lame.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Efficiency once again being underrated :facepalm

His Scoring doesn't have any Impact when it comes at a 40% clip, you Idiots.

How big was KD's Scoring Impact through 5 Games against the Grizzlies, averaging 28 PPG.... 28, that's good, on 40%.

Attempted 25 Shots, made 10, missed 15...

That's not NEGATIVE Impact?
You want to tell me that's positive Impact as far as scoring the ball goes?

Just answer it. Simple question.

No Takers? Can someone answer the ****in' question?

KD was getting mad heat, in talk for worst MVP 1st-Round Series ever, on the edge of being eliminated... so, was his Impact positive?
2000 Finals: 15.6 ppg on 18 fga
2001 Finals: 24.6 ppg on 21.6 fga
2002 Finals: 26.8 ppg on 17.5 fga
2004 Finals: 22.6 ppg on 22.6 fga
2008 Finals: 25.7 ppg on 21.8 fga
2009 Finals: 32.4 ppg on 27 fga
2010 Finals: 28.6 ppg on 23.3 fga

Finals career: 25.3 ppg on 21.8 fga

That's not 28 ppg on 25 fga shit except for '00 and '04.

Efficiency is also about freethrows and 3-pointers, not just fg%.

[sportjames23]

nearly 7,000 posts in 4 months :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:


Damn. And some other fakkit ass Lebron stan (I think it was Arbitrary Water's boyfriend) complained about me having 3000 posts in one year. This nikka got about twice as many posts as I do in 4 months.

:facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe was never known as a 50% scorer, so the standard should be his career average, which is 45%. His fg% dips by 2-3% in most of his Finals series, is even much higher in one of them. Lebron's FG% for example has always been lower in the Finals, last year it dipped by 12%. Kobe is more consistent than Lebron if you're looking at percentages that way, as he produces at about the same rate he always does while Lebron often does not, as it was evidenced in the Finals last season, when his poor shooting in 4 out the first 5 Finals games put his team in position to lose in 6 games at his home floor.


http://gifatron.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/upset-jaguars-fan.gif

That has got to be some of the most cringe worthy logic I half ever seen...

Dominant doesn't mean "increasing averages". If a guy averages 2 ppg in the regular season, and 4 ppg in the playoffs, that doesn't make him the most dominant playoffs performer simply because he doubled his average.

[Hey Yo]

That is false. Kobe wouldn't have been drafted at 13 had the Lakers not traded for the pick. Hornets didn't need a SG anyways and neither did the Lakers, but Jerry West saw the potential in Kobe and thought he was worth a Vlade Divac, so he traded for the pick to get Kobe.

Hornets had a prime Glen Rice playing 40 mpg and Dell Curry was still a decent SG, they wouldn't have drafted another shooting guard at 13, I think they would have drafted Peja or Jermaine O'Neal, because they needed to upgrade their front court because Larry Johnson left Charlotte. Both Peja and Jermaine were more NBA ready at that time, while Kobe was still 17 years old. Maybe they would have even gone for Nash, because Muggsy missed basically the whole season and Anderson was constantly out.

And I doubt Kobe would have refused to play for the Hornets had the Lakers not wanted him and had the Hornets picked him because they had a pretty solid team. Kobe would have been drafted to a 40+ win team that added Anthony Mason, who was beasting for them and Glen Rice, who was becoming a big star in the league, Hornets won 54 games the following season.
I'm not talking about Charlotte.

The Nets and coach Calipari wanted to draft Kobe 8th overall, but was told by Kobe's agent that Kobe would not sign there. He wanted to play for the Lakers.

[ArbitraryWater]

Efficiency is the lamest meassure of a player greatness, and players that are comstantly worried about their efficiency are just as lame.

When a Player lives off of scoring, and that's all he does at an elite level, it holds huge value.... Why isn't Iverson Top 25? If he'd shoot 55%, he would be...

And I don't think I've ever seen a player worry about their efficiency... cop out technique.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Let me end this. Kobe is not a good finals performer, and LeBron is no doubt the better player once we hit that stage.
No, Kobe is certainly the better Finals performer.

Bran has arguably two of the worst finals ever (07 and 11), that's half his finals series.

[Dresta]

Meanwhile Wade is averaging 26/6/5/2/1 57 TS% in finals series, in which he would be undefeated if not for LeChoke 2011. Wade steps up on the bigges stage, while Kobe steps down. Yet most bball fans don't even think there's an argument when it comes to Wade/Kobe, mainly because the media has been endlessly talking about Kobe and fawning over him for a decade. Same reason Kobe has 10 All-D First teams, and Wade only has 2 2nd team selections. Shit is ridiculous.

[GODbe]

http://mavsmag.com/redirk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/photo-1-500x373.jpg
http://k.min.us/il07fG.gif

[Keno]

Lebron James arguably had the two worst Finals series by any superstar in 2007 & 2011 & needed Chris Bosh to rebound two of his bricks in the last 30 seconds and needed Ray Allen to hit a miracle 3 and needed Duncan to miss a wide open layup.

lebron 2 shitty finals = they lose.

Kobe 4 shitty finals (out of 5) = they win.


see the difference?

[bukowski81]

When a Player lives off of scoring, and that's all he does at an elite level, it holds huge value.... Why isn't Iverson Top 25? If he'd shoot 55%, he would be...

And I don't think I've ever seen a player worry about their efficiency... cop out technique.

Its not, is just a byproduct of the lame advanced statistics the media has put out and everyone just follows what they say like sheeps...

Im not saying advanced statistics arent usefull, they are, but some people take them too seriously...

[ArbitraryWater]

Meanwhile Wade is averaging 26/6/5/2/1 57 TS% in finals series, in which he would be undefeated if not for LeChoke 2011. Wade steps up on the bigges stage, while Kobe steps down. Yet most bball fans don't even think there's an argument when it comes to Wade/Kobe, mainly because the media has been endlessly talking about Kobe and fawning over him for a decade. Same reason Kobe has 10 All-D First teams, and Wade only has 2 2nd team selections. Shit is ridiculous.

Agreed on everything :cheers:

[hitmanyr2k]

Now yeah, I know as well that LeBron's only had 1 finals series of such caliber, in in 2012.
2013 Finals, 25/11/7 on 45%, meh efficiency...
But what makes this another great finals series is the amazing all-around game, fantastic defense on the opponent's best player; holding Parker to 6-26 23% in game 6 and 3-12 25% in game 7 and the stellar big game play, capped off by a legendary game 7 of 37 points on 52% to go along with 12 rebounds.



This myth has been destroyed time and time again.

[ArbitraryWater]

Its not, is just a byproduct of the lame advanced statistics the media has put out and everyone just follows what they say like sheeps...

Im not saying advanced statistics arent usefull, they are, but some people take them too seriously...

Good... What does this have to do with this thread?


-----

Anyway

Kobe Bryant Finals Scoring:
36% in the 2000 NBA Finals (won)
41% in the 2001 NBA Finals (won)
54% in the 2002 NBA Finals (won)
38% in the 2004 NBA Finals (lost)
40% in the 2008 NBA Finals (lost)
43% in the 2009 NBA Finals (won)
41% in the 2010 NBA Finals (won)

41% for his career. Horrible. Kobe had to shoot just 40% in order to win titles, that's how good his team/teammates were. In fact, 36% in 2000.

Hopefully this gives you some insight into how silly it is to compare championships between the two. Entirely different expectations put forth on each Individual in order to succeed(because the stacked casts of the Lakers)

Kobe just had to shoot 40% to win the title while LeBron has to give legendary performances in elimination games just to survive, and ultimately triumph.

[Hey Yo]

Meanwhile Wade is averaging 26/6/5/2/1 57 TS% in finals series, in which he would be undefeated if not for LeChoke 2011. Wade steps up on the bigges stage, while Kobe steps down. Yet most bball fans don't even think there's an argument when it comes to Wade/Kobe, mainly because the media has been endlessly talking about Kobe and fawning over him for a decade. Same reason Kobe has 10 All-D First teams, and Wade only has 2 2nd team selections. Shit is ridiculous.
What happened the last 2 Finals when Wade realized he needed to take a backseat and let LeBron run the show? That wasn't the case 2011 Finals

[sportjames23]

http://mavsmag.com/redirk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/photo-1-500x373.jpg
http://k.min.us/il07fG.gif


:applause:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Has Lebron ever shot 50% for a finals series?

Has Lebron ever averaged 30ppg for a finals series?

Has Lebron ever averaged 30/5/5 in the finals?

Has Lebron ever dropped 40 in a finals game?

Kobe has

[bukowski81]

Good... What does this have to do with this thread?


-----

Anyway

Kobe Bryant Finals Scoring:
36% in the 2000 NBA Finals (won)
41% in the 2001 NBA Finals (won)
54% in the 2002 NBA Finals (won)
38% in the 2004 NBA Finals (lost)
40% in the 2008 NBA Finals (lost)
43% in the 2009 NBA Finals (won)
41% in the 2010 NBA Finals (won)

41% for his career. Horrible. Kobe had to shoot just 40% in order to win titles, that's how good his team/teammates were. In fact, 36% in 2000.

Hopefully this gives you some insight into how silly it is to compare championships between the two. Entirely different expectations put forth on each Individual in order to succeed(because the stacked casts of the Lakers)

Kobe just had to shoot 40% to win the title while LeBron has to give legendary performances in elimination games just to survive, and ultimately triumph.

Ill bet my ass you didnt watch any of those lakers playoff runs...

[Deuce Bigalow]

lebron 2 shitty finals = they lose.

Kobe 4 shitty finals (out of 5) = they win.


see the difference?
Which ones are you counting as shitty?

28.6 ppg (23.3 fga), 8 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.1 spg, 0.7 bpg vs the #5 rated defense Celtics in 2010?

24.6 ppg (21.8 fga), 7.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.4 bpg vs the #5 rated defense Sixers in '01?

At least your dumbass didn't have the nerve to call '09 shitty because of "43%".

[JT123]

Bron >>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe when it comes to the Finals. People wanna bring up Bron's 2007 Finals performance? :facepalm At least Bron was on a shit team, allowing the Spurs to focus ENTIRELY on him! What's Kobe's excuse for shooting 41 percent in the 2001 Finals while being guarded by a player 6 inches shorter than him? :oldlol: :oldlol: All while being mostly ignored by a defense that was only concerned with stopping Shaq. :confusedshrug:
Kobe's 2004 Finals is arguably the worst performance in Finals history, nothing more needs to be said about that embarrassment. At least with Lebron in 2011 he was trying to defer to the hot hand in Wade. Kobe went away from the hot hand in Shaq, and we all know how that turned out. :roll: :roll:

[kamil]

2002 doesn't count, we all know the NBA rigged the Sacramento series for ratings.... thats as much of an asterisk for Kobe as it is for LeBrons* collusion.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Meanwhile Wade is averaging 26/6/5/2/1 57 TS% in finals series, in which he would be undefeated if not for LeChoke 2011. Wade steps up on the bigges stage, while Kobe steps down. Yet most bball fans don't even think there's an argument when it comes to Wade/Kobe, mainly because the media has been endlessly talking about Kobe and fawning over him for a decade. Same reason Kobe has 10 All-D First teams, and Wade only has 2 2nd team selections. Shit is ridiculous.
It's not like he faced the Mavericks and Thunder for 3/4 of those series while Kobe faced a top 5 defense 6/7 of his series.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Bron >>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe when it comes to the Finals. People wanna bring up Bron's 2007 Finals performance? :facepalm At least Bron was on a shit team, allowing the Spurs to focus ENTIRELY on him! What's Kobe's excuse for shooting 41 percent in the 2001 Finals while being guarded by a player 6 inches shorter than him? :oldlol: :oldlol: All while being mostly ignored by a defense that was only concerned with stopping Shaq. :confusedshrug:
Kobe's 2004 Finals is arguably the worst performance in Finals history, nothing more needs to be said about that embarrassment. At least with Lebron in 2011 he was trying to defer to the hot hand in Wade. Kobe went away from the hot hand in Shaq, and we all know how that turned out. :roll: :roll:
22 ppg on 36% with 5.8 t/o (scored a bunch in the 4th quarters when the game was out of hand and still ended up with those numbers)

17.8 ppg with 3 ppg in the 4th quarters (the rest of his numbers were good but if you watched the series Bran had so little impact)

That's HALF his finals series :oldlol: They are likely the two worst finals series of alltime.

[Deuce Bigalow]

07 Bran gets outscored by Tony Parker

11 Bran gets outscored by Dirk, Wade, Bosh, and Jason Terry

12 Bran gets outscored by Durant

13 Bran finally is the leading scorer guys!

Now he's better than Kobe...huh?

Btw OP...standart?

[sportjames23]

07 Bran gets outscored by Tony Parker

11 Bran gets outscored by Dirk, Wade, Bosh, and Jason Terry

12 Bran gets outscored by Durant

13 Bran finally is the leading scorer guys!

Btw OP...standart?


OP making up new words. :oldlol:

[JT123]

22 ppg on 36% with 5.8 t/o (scored a bunch in the 4th quarters when the game was out of hand and still ended up with those numbers)

17.8 ppg with 3 ppg in the 4th quarters (the rest of his numbers were good but if you watched the series Bran had so little impact)

That's HALF his finals series :oldlol: They are likely the two worst finals series of alltime.
Only thing you are bringing up are Bron's scoring stats. Doesn't make a lot of sense considering Lebron is a pass first player. :confusedshrug: We bring up Kobe's scoring numbers because that is all he is good for, and he can't even do it efficiently! :roll: :roll:

[iamgine]

Not that I disagree but FG% is useless. Show TS% instead.

[ArbitraryWater]

Because all LeBron does is score, right?


OP making up new words. :oldlol:

You sure realized it quick lmfaoo

Props to Deuce, Page 4

[sportjames23]

Because all LeBron does is score, right?



You sure realized it quick lmfaoo

Props to Deuce, Page 4


Oh, I noticed it the first time I saw the thread title. Just felt bad for you and didn't want to point out your dyslexia in front of everyone else. :lol

[JT123]

07 Bran gets outscored by Tony Parker

11 Bran gets outscored by Dirk, Wade, Bosh, and Jason Terry

12 Bran gets outscored by Durant

13 Bran finally is the leading scorer guys!

Now he's better than Kobe...huh?

Btw OP...standart?
Those guys were inefficient though, so it doesn't really count. As I mentioned earlier, Bron was trying to get others involved, so mentioning how many points he scored isn't really relevant.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Those guys were inefficient though, so it doesn't really count. As I mentioned earlier, Bron was trying to get others involved, so mentioning how many points he scored isn't really relevant.
You trying to make shit up now? He passed the ball and stood in the corner in the 4th quarters, not take control of the offense by being Magic Johnson.

[TheMan]

:roll: :roll:

LeBron's had 2 chokes, Kobe's had 5 horrible series'... LOL at 2011 being worse than Kobe and 2010.

2012 >> 2002.
So it boils down to who sucks less in the Finals between Kobe and LeBron, huh, essentially a tallest midget contest :confusedshrug:

Yet both Kobe and Bran stans want their respective idols to be put in the same level as the GOAT Finals performer who really only had one bad Finals series by his standards (96)?

I know this thread is about Kobe's overall lackluster Finals performances but just wanted to take this opportunity to remind the Kobe kids and the Bran stans that their heroes fall way short of what #23 accomplished at the highest level and under the brightest lights.

GOAT gon' GOAT:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[SexSymbol]

I swear to god ArbitraryWater has a smaller IQ level than jamthequeer's fake personality on this forum

[sportjames23]

So it boils down to who sucks less in the Finals between Kobe and LeBron, huh, essentially a tallest midget contest :confusedshrug:

Yet both Kobe and Bran stans want their respective idols to be put in the same level as the GOAT Finals performer who really only had one bad Finals series by his standards (96)?

I know this thread is about Kobe's overall lackluster Finals performances but just wanted to take this opportunity to remind the Kobe kids and the Bran stans that their heroes fall way short of what #23 accomplished at the highest level and under the brightest lights.

GOAT gon' GOAT:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:


:cheers:

[AnaheimLakers24]

I swear to god ArbitraryWater has a smaller IQ level than jamthequeer's fake personality on this forum
:oldlol:

[guy]

:roll: :roll:

LeBron's had 2 chokes, Kobe's had 5 horrible series'... LOL at 2011 being worse than Kobe and 2010.


Are you serious? 2011 is clearly the worst Finals of a superstar ever.

Both of them in general are pretty bad in the Finals for their standards. That's for sure.

[mehyaM24]

2002 doesn't count, we all know the NBA rigged the Sacramento series for ratings.... thats as much of an asterisk for Kobe as it is for LeBrons* collusion.

if those are "asterisk" rings, then so are jordan's 92 (rigged game 7 vs NY-called that game completely different than the previous 6...key knicks players were in foul trouble) and 98 rings (push off).

people dont wanna hear that though

[TheMarkMadsen]

Has Lebron ever shot 50% for a finals series?

Has Lebron ever averaged 30ppg for a finals series?

Has Lebron ever averaged 30/5/5 in the finals?

Has Lebron ever dropped 40 in a finals game?

Kobe has

..

[LAZERUSS]

Because one game defines a career when GOAT-level players play around a thousand.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

ONE game????


99-00
Regular season 22.5 ppg .468 FG%
Finals 15.6 ppg .367 FG%
Last Game of Series .296 FG%

00-01
Regular season 28.5 ppg .464 FG%
Finals 24.6 ppg .415 FG%
Last Game of Series .389 FG%

01-02
Regular season 25.2 ppg .469
Finals 26.8 ppg .514 FG%
Last Game of Series .438 FG%

03-04
Regular season 24.0 ppg .438 FG%
Finals 22.6 ppg .381 FG%
Last Game of Series .333 FG%

07-08
Regular season 28.3 ppg .459 FG%
Finals 25.7 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .318 FG%

08-09
Regular season 26.8 ppg .467 FG%
Finals 32.4 ppg .430 FG%
Last Game of Series .435 FG%

09-10
Regular season 27.0 ppg .456 FG%
Finals 28.6 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .250 FG%


Other noteables:


97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
Team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.
In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86. Kobe shoots .389 from the field.


Kobe is without a doubt, the all-time GOAT CHOKER.

[Rooster]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

ONE game????




Kobe is without a doubt, the all-time GOAT CHOKER.

Kobe saying to Wilt grave

I got 5 on it

[LAZERUSS]

Here were Kobe's FG/FGA's in the last game of each of his seven Finals...

8-27
7-18
7-16
7-21
7-22
10-23
6-24

52-151 or a .344 FG%.

Again...GOAT CHOKER.

[LAZERUSS]

Kobe saying to Wilt grave

I got 5 on it

More like Kobe saying, "Hey, my TEAM won five titles...despite my HORRIFIC play."

Oh, and BTW, it was Kobe's AWFUL play in his two other Finals that COST his TEAM a title, as well.

[TheMan]

if those are "asterisk" rings, then so are jordan's 92 (rigged game 7 vs NY-called that game completely different than the previous 6...key knicks players were in foul trouble) and 98 rings (push off).

people dont wanna hear that though
Bullshit, I watched that series and two points come to mind, 1.) that seventh game wasn't called any differently than the rest, the refs let the knicks get away with all types of thuggery, that's the reason it went 7 games in the first place and 2.) if those games were called like they're called today, Knicks would foul out and the Bulls sweep. The Knicks were a cheap imitation of the Pistons, all the dirty goon tactics without the offensive talent. And the Bulls were way better than the versions the Pistons defeated.

The 98 pushoff wouldn't be called ever in any late game situation, just too ticky tack and MJ still had to hit the jumper, not like he shoved his way to a layup :facepalm

Nit picking at it's finest :applause:

[LAZERUSS]

Here were Kobe's FG/FGA's in the last game of each of his seven Finals...

8-27
7-18
7-16
7-21
7-22
10-23
6-24

52-151 or a .344 FG%.

Again...GOAT CHOKER.

And before some idiot brings up Wilt...

here were Wilt's LAST games of EACH of his six Finals...

12-28 (30 points, 27 rebounds.)
8-13 (24 points, 23 rebounds.)
7-8 (18 points, 27 rebounds.)
10-16 (21 points, 24 rebounds.)
10-14 (24 points, 29 rebounds.)
9-16 (23 points, 21 rebounds.)

Overall...56-95, or a .589 FG% in the biggest games of his seasons. All while averaging 23.3 ppg and 25.2 rpg. And keep in mind that five of those games came after his "scoring seasons."

[Rooster]

More like Kobe saying, "Hey, my TEAM won five titles...despite my HORRIFIC play."

Oh, and BTW, it was Kobe's AWFUL play in his two other Finals that COST his TEAM a title, as well.

Better than saying I got 2 rings because Russell owned me.

BTW Kobe has more than anyone in his era

[sportjames23]

Bullshit, I watched that series and two points come to mind, 1.) that seventh game wasn't called any differently than the rest, the refs let the knicks get away with all types of thuggery, that's the reason it went 7 games in the first place and 2.) if those games were called like they're called today, Knicks would foul out and the Bulls sweep. The Knicks were a cheap imitation of the Pistons, all the dirty goon tactics without the offensive talent. And the Bulls were way better than the versions the Pistons defeated.

The 98 pushoff wouldn't be called ever in any late game situation, just too ticky tack and MJ still had to hit the jumper, not like he shoved his way to a layup :facepalm

Nit picking at it's finest :applause:


mehya is the worst poster on this site, bar none.

[Rooster]

And before some idiot brings up Wilt...

here were Wilt's LAST games of EACH of his six Finals...

12-28 (30 points, 27 rebounds.)
8-13 (24 points, 23 rebounds.)
7-8 (18 points, 27 rebounds.)
10-16 (21 points, 24 rebounds.)
10-14 (24 points, 29 rebounds.)
9-16 (23 points, 21 rebounds.)

Overall...56-95, or a .589 FG% in the biggest games of his seasons. All while averaging 23.3 ppg and 25.2 rpg. And keep in mind that five of those games came after his "scoring seasons."

Empty stats.

Looks good in paper but does not win you rings.

That's the story of Wilt career.

[LAZERUSS]

Better than saying I got 2 rings because Russell owned me.

BTW Kobe has more than anyone in his era

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Over the course of their entire 143 career H2H's...

Russell: 14.5 ppg, 23.8 rpg, and a .382 FG%
Wilt: 28.7 ppg, 28.7 rpg, and a .496 FG%.

The reality was, Russell may have slightly outplayed Wilt in perhaps a dozen, or so, games in those 143 H2H's, while Wilt either outplayed Russell, or downright CRUSHED him, in the rest. I could post some 40 games in which Chamberlain DESTROYED Russell.

Of course, basketball is a TEAM game, and Kobe was lucky to have Shaq, Horry, Fisher, Gasol (hell, even Artest) in his FIVE title runs.

[LAZERUSS]

Empty stats.

Looks good in paper but does not win you rings.

That's the story of Wilt career.

Like MJ in NINE of his seasons.
Bird in 10 of his seasons.
West in 12 of his seasons.
Kobe in 12 of his seasons.
Oscar in 13 of his seasons.
Baylor in all 13 of his seasons.
Duncan in 13 of his seasons.
KAJ in 14 of his seasons.
Shaq in 15 of his seasons.
And Hakeem in 16 of his seasons.

All were LOSERS.

[TheMan]

mehya is the worst poster on this site, bar none.
I concur

[Deuce Bigalow]

@jlauber

Kobe: 5

Wilt: 2

Next

[SexSymbol]

Lazeruss, do you have unlimited internet bandwith at your retirement home or something? How come you spend so much time here while being older than most planets, is it because your loved ones left you in a place where nostalgic shitholes like you could at least live out the rest of their pathetic lives as no one will remember them?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Like MJ in NINE of his seasons.
Bird in 10 of his seasons.
West in 12 of his seasons.
Kobe in 12 of his seasons.
Oscar in 13 of his seasons.
Baylor in all 13 of his seasons.
Duncan in 13 of his seasons.
KAJ in 14 of his seasons.
Shaq in 15 of his seasons.
And Hakeem in 16 of his seasons.

All were LOSERS.
Now give us the ring count for all of them.

[Black Mamba's B]

Kobe is a better finals performer sorry kids. Stacked teams, physically superior to all defenders but has the heart of a goldfish

[Rooster]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Over the course of their entire 143 career H2H's...

Russell: 14.5 ppg, 23.8 rpg, and a .382 FG%
Wilt: 28.7 ppg, 28.7 rpg, and a .496 FG%.

The reality was, Russell may have slightly outplayed Wilt in perhaps a dozen, or so, games in those 143 H2H's, while Wilt either outplayed Russell, or downright CRUSHED him, in the rest. I could post some 40 games in which Chamberlain DESTROYED Russell.

Of course, basketball is a TEAM game, and Kobe was lucky to have Shaq, Horry, Fisher, Gasol (hell, even Artest) in his FIVE title runs.

It's funny that when Wilt became Russell like

He actually won another ring

Maybe if Wilt actually cared more about being a TEAM PLAYER

Then maybe we can call him a WINNER

But that's just hypothetical talk

[Doranku]

Wilt is a career loser who played in an era that isn't even comparable to today's.

Just go watch footage of him play. He would be awful in today's league. He looked down at the ball while he dribbled in the post. His footwork was atrocious. He looked borderline uncoordinated out on the court. He had very few go-to moves in the post.

And he was completely dominated by another contemporary in Russell. Honestly, dude has no discussion over a guy like Kobe.

[TheMan]

Lazeruss, do you have unlimited internet bandwith at your retirement home or something? How come you spend so much time here while being older than most planets, is it because your loved ones left you in a place where nostalgic shitholes like you could at least live out the rest of their pathetic lives as no one will remember them?
Ok, LAZ does get carried away with his nostalgia but this is pretty low. :facepalm

[Doranku]

Lazeruss, do you have unlimited internet bandwith at your retirement home or something? How come you spend so much time here while being older than most planets, is it because your loved ones left you in a place where nostalgic shitholes like you could at least live out the rest of their pathetic lives as no one will remember them?

the f*ck is wrong with you?

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt is a career loser who played in an era that isn't even comparable to today's.

Just go watch footage of him play. He would be awful in today's league. He looked down at the ball while he dribbled in the post. His footwork was atrocious. He looked borderline uncoordinated out on the court. He had very few go-to moves in the post.

And he was completely dominated by another contemporary in Russell. Honestly, dude has no discussion over a guy like Kobe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

or if you really want an education...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBX9ikNzEk


As for Russell "dominating" Wilt...how about these 40 H2H games (and I could probably list another 40, as well)?

[QUOTE]For reference, the first number of the pair next to each player's name is points in that particular game, while the second is rebounds. An example would be the first one, with Wilt scoring 45 points, and grabbing 35 rebounds (45-35), while Russell's numbers were 15 points, with 13 rebounds (15-13.)


Wilt 45-35 Russell 15-13
Wilt 47-36 Russell 16-22
Wilt 44-43 Russell 15-29
Wilt 43-26 Russell 13-21
Wilt 43-39

[ArbitraryWater]

Lazeruss, do you have unlimited internet bandwith at your retirement home or something? How come you spend so much time here while being older than most planets, is it because your loved ones left you in a place where nostalgic shitholes like you could at least live out the rest of their pathetic lives as no one will remember them?

You are so ****in' mad dude... it's sad really :oldlol:

Mental Issues like with 20Four, wishing dudes to die and shit...

I mean http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/MRW-the-girl-sitting-next-to-me-in-my-lecture-said-France-was-in-Africa-gary-coleman.gif

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

or if you really want an education...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBX9ikNzEk


As for Russell "dominating" Wilt...how about these 40 H2H games (and I could probably list another 40, as well)?



And how about WIN-SHARES:



Next...
How about championships:

Bill: 11

Wilt: 2

[LAZERUSS]

How about championships:

Bill: 11

Wilt: 2

TEAM award.

Next...

BTW, take Shaq away from '00 thru '02, and Kobe doesn't even make the playoffs. Oh, and take Horry away for ONE play in '02, and neither Shaq, nor Kobe, win a ring.

Take the Gasol trade away from Kobe and he doesn't win a ring in '09 or '10. In fact, take Artest's ONE shot away from game seven of the '10 Finals, and neither Gasol, nor Kobe, win a ring that season.

TEAM game.

Russell had FAR better teammates, and those teammates ELEVATED their post-season play, while Chamberlain's generally puked all over the floor in their's, and were badly outplayed post-season after post-season.

[Deuce Bigalow]

TEAM award.

Next...
Voted GOAT

Next

[Deuce Bigalow]

Dude let it go. Wilt isn't even the GOAT of his era and was a choker in the playoffs. Accept these facts and move on.

[TheMagicMan]

07 Bran gets outscored by Tony Parker

11 Bran gets outscored by Dirk, Wade, Bosh, and Jason Terry

12 Bran gets outscored by Durant

13 Bran finally is the leading scorer guys!

Now he's better than Kobe...huh?

Btw OP...standart?

OP ignoring Deuce's comments like the plague :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Voted GOAT

Next

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Russell???

That was voting done by a panel of SPORTSWRITERS in 1980...and OBVIOUSLY, NONE of those that voted for Russell ever saw the two play. Why? Because WILT held a staggering 7-2 margin in FIRST-TEAM ALL-NBA Selections when the TWO actually PLAYED...in voting done by SPORTSWRITERS who actually witnessed them PLAYING.

BTW, SportsCentury had Wilt at #2 (behind MJ) in 1999, and well AHEAD of both Russell and Kareem in THEIR voting.

Chamberlain was CLEARLY the best player when he played. He not only won ROY in his rookie season, he easily won an MVP over Russell. And by the mid-60's he was winning THREE STRAIGHT, and the last two of which were by RUNAWAY margins. Very FEW in the 60's, including probably Russell and Auerbach, honestly believed that Russell was even remotely close to Chamberlain.

[TheMagicMan]

Also, OP has to be the biggest fakkit alive if he's going to claim Austin Croshere outplayed Kobe when Kobe sprained his ankle in Game 2 (Jalen Rose admitted he did it on purpose) and only played 9 minutes, and then didn't even play in Game 3 :facepalm

[Sarcastic]

Dude let it go. Wilt isn't even the GOAT of his era and was a choker in the playoffs. Accept these facts and move on.

You say this, yet you make more threads about him than anyone else.

[LAZERUSS]

Dude let it go. Wilt isn't even the GOAT of his era and was a choker in the playoffs. Accept these facts and move on.

Wilt in his 23 "elimination games"

12-11
31.1 ppg
26.4 rpg
.540 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .435 in that same span)

Kobe in his 18 "elimination games"

8-10
22.0 ppg
.416 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .475 in that span.)


Of course...


99-00
Regular season 22.5 ppg .468 FG%
Finals 15.6 ppg .367 FG%
Last Game of Series .296 FG%

00-01
Regular season 28.5 ppg .464 FG%
Finals 24.6 ppg .415 FG%
Last Game of Series .389 FG%

01-02
Regular season 25.2 ppg .469
Finals 26.8 ppg .514 FG%
Last Game of Series .438 FG%

03-04
Regular season 24.0 ppg .438 FG%
Finals 22.6 ppg .381 FG%
Last Game of Series .333 FG%

07-08
Regular season 28.3 ppg .459 FG%
Finals 25.7 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .318 FG%

08-09
Regular season 26.8 ppg .467 FG%
Finals 32.4 ppg .430 FG%
Last Game of Series .435 FG%

09-10
Regular season 27.0 ppg .456 FG%
Finals 28.6 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .250 FG%


Other noteables:


97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
Team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.
In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86. Kobe shoots .389 from the field.


AND...


Here were Kobe's FG/FGA's in the last game of each of his seven Finals...

8-27
7-18
7-16
7-21
7-22
10-23
6-24

52-151 or a .344 FG%.


and...


here were Wilt's LAST games of EACH of his six Finals...

12-28 (30 points, 27 rebounds.)
8-13 (24 points, 23 rebounds.)
7-8 (18 points, 27 rebounds.)
10-16 (21 points, 24 rebounds.)
10-14 (24 points, 29 rebounds.)
9-16 (23 points, 21 rebounds.)

Overall...56-95, or a .589 FG% in the biggest games of his seasons. All while averaging 23.3 ppg and 25.2 rpg. And keep in mind that five of those games came after his "scoring seasons."

WILT = GOAT

KOBE = GOAT CHOKER

Next...

[mehyaM24]

Bullshit, I watched that series and two points come to mind, 1.) that seventh game wasn't called any differently than the rest, the refs let the knicks get away with all types of thuggery, that's the reason it went 7 games in the first place and 2.) if those games were called like they're called today, Knicks would foul out and the Bulls sweep. The Knicks were a cheap imitation of the Pistons, all the dirty goon tactics without the offensive talent. And the Bulls were way better than the versions the Pistons defeated.

The 98 pushoff wouldn't be called ever in any late game situation, just too ticky tack and MJ still had to hit the jumper, not like he shoved his way to a layup :facepalm

Nit picking at it's finest :applause:
i bet you weren't even alive in 92. everyone that watched that series, knew game 7 was NOT fairly called. mark jackson,wilkins,xman couldn't even touch jordan without being called for personals(were all in foul trouble too)

jordan whined to stern and he had game 7 officiated differently. this is a documented fact(look it up)

and no,98 was a BLATANT pushoff that would definitely be called today.

hell,durant makes a living off the rip-through crap :oldlol:


mehya worst poster

:oldlol:

i guess. your ilk loves to toot "asterisk" yet once somebody(me) calls you out,you sling shit on the wall.

you got nothing basically

[knicksman]

all you need to know OP is their on/off +/-. And kobe has higher +/- in the playoffs. Thats why lebron has to make a superteam coz he knows his skillset is for MVPs and not rings.

[knicksman]

only cheap betas would settle for lebron rings.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt in his 23 "elimination games"

12-11
31.1 ppg
26.4 rpg
.540 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .435 in that same span)

Kobe in his 18 "elimination games"

8-10
22.0 ppg
.416 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .475 in that span.)


Of course...




AND...



and...



WILT = GOAT

KOBE = GOAT CHOKER

Next...
Kobe: 5

Wilt: 2

[Rooster]

TEAM award.

Next...

BTW, take Shaq away from '00 thru '02, and Kobe doesn't even make the playoffs. Oh, and take Horry away for ONE play in '02, and neither Shaq, nor Kobe, win a ring.

Take the Gasol trade away from Kobe and he doesn't win a ring in '09 or '10. In fact, take Artest's ONE shot away from game seven of the '10 Finals, and neither Gasol, nor Kobe, win a ring that season.

TEAM game.

Russell had FAR better teammates, and those teammates ELEVATED their post-season play, while Chamberlain's generally puked all over the floor in their's, and were badly outplayed post-season after post-season.

Far better teammates or

Russell just made them better

Celtics did not win anything until Russell got there.

While Wilt despite his STATS always came empty handed.:roll:

[Deuce Bigalow]

You say this, yet you make more threads about him than anyone else.
Not anymore doe

[TheMan]

i bet you weren't even alive in 92. everyone that watched that series, knew game 7 was NOT fairly called. mark jackson,wilkins,xman couldn't even touch jordan without being called for personals(were all in foul trouble too)

jordan whined to stern and he had game 7 officiated differently. this is a documented fact(look it up)

and no,98 was a BLATANT pushoff that would definitely be called today.

hell,durant makes a living off the rip-through crap :oldlol:



:oldlol:

i guess. your ilk loves to toot "asterisk" yet once somebody(me) calls you out,you sling shit on the wall.

you got nothing basically
You got me confused with someone else, I have never claimed that any of LeBron's titles should have an asterisk :confusedshrug: Not even Hakeem's...

You don't even know what the hell you're complaining about...asterisk titles are for *******

[LAZERUSS]

Far better teammates or

Russell just made them better

Celtics did not win anything until Russell got there.

While Wilt despite his STATS always came empty handed.:roll:

Before Russell arrived in Boston, the Celtics went 39-33, and made the playoffs. Russell was Boston's SECOND pick in the '57 draft, behind Tommy Heinsohn (who won ROY BTW), and who would be yet another of Russell's HOF teammates.

In Russell's rookie season, he missed 24 games. In the 48 games in which he played, Boston went 28-20 (.583), and in the 24 he missed, they went 16-8 (.667.)

The Celtics then drafted Sam Jones, another HOFer, the very next season. A player who even Russell acknowledged as saving their seasons SIX times.

In the '58 Finals, Russell was injured in game three in a series that was tied 1-1. Boston lost game three, 111-108, but outscored the Hawks withOUT Russell in that game. The Celtics easily won game four, again, WITHOUT Russell. They barely lost game five, 102-100 (again, WITHOUT Russell.) And Russell tried to go in game six, and played 20 minutes. Boston lost that game six by a 110-109 margin, but yet again, outscored the Hawks withOUT Russell in the game.

Auerbach would continue to ADD pieces to those Celtic teams. How about picking up HOFer Clyde Lovellette, who had averaged 21 ppg just the year before, in the 62-63 season? Guess what, Lovellette would only be Boston's EIGHTH best player that season!

He drafted Havlicek, who basically replaced Cousy. They added HOFer Bailey Howell a couple of years later (and Howell would put up 20 ppg seasons on 50% shooting.)

I have seen those who have claimed that the Celtics immediately plummeted after Russell retired (going from 48-34 down to 34-48.) First of all, the Celtics had been slowly going downhill anyway. Secondly, SAM JONES also retired after that '69 season. Oh, and Russell didn't give Auerbach ANY notice that he was going to retire, either. So, without knowing that important fact, Auerbach drafted Jo Jo White, instead of a center. The Celtics then had to make due with long time bench-warmer Henry Finkel as their starting center in '69-70.

BUT, Auerbach then drafted Dave Cowens in the '70 draft. Boston went 44-38 in Cowen's rookie season. In his second season (71-72) they won the East with a 56-26 record. In his third season they set a still team record of 68-14. In his 4th season they won a title. And they would win another one two years later.

Russell had a TON of help in his 13 seasons...including Auerbach.

Meanwhile, Chamberlain came to a LAST PLACE team in his rookie season. And, unlike Boston, his rosters became older and worse each season there. And then he would be traded to yet another lousy team in '65. BUT, EVERY team Wilt joined became an instant title contender, and every team he left became an instant also-ran...including his retirement.