KG is useless. Dirk>>>KG

[Teanett]

Nets are playing 4 on 5 with him on offense.
Dirk is still a strong contributor in Dallas.

Looking at their careers in retrospect, Dirk must have be clearly ahead all-time.

Ranking the top PF's of late 90's-00's:

Duncan>Dirk>KG>Webber=Sheed

[TheMagicMan]

KG hasn't been better than Dirk for a while now. Give me Dirk's spacing and shooting over KG's defense. Just my preference.

[pastis]

KG hasn't been better than Dirk for a while now. Give me Dirk's spacing and shooting over KG's defense. Just my preference.

dude i like you.

kg was huge, but honestly his defense is overrated by now. was his so glorofied defense a game-changer? was kg a crunch-time player and clutch-player?

where was his defense as dirk erased him 2003 and outplayed him in points and rebounds (that was KG peak and Dirk was not on his peak)? where was his so good defense against dirk, when dirk have won so often in RS against him vs wolves or vs celtics.
even the game winner 2012 against him in the garden.:applause:

what does your great defense bring, when you can't shut down the opponents best player?

Dirk >>>>> KG by far for ever and ever by far by far by far

[PickernRoller]

Dirk has always been better than KG....common knowledge.

[fpliii]

Nah, KG was definitely better. Right now, he's probably close to done though (but someone posted stats about Miami shooting like shit near the rim this series when KG's on the court).

Dirk is generally underrated though, I think both are top 3 PFs, and if you put together a GOAT list, not many would bat an eye if you put one or both in your top 15.

[SCdac]

I'd take prime KG over prime Dirk and take his career as whole too. Both lead their teams to championships as the best player and in saying that I have them ranked very even, but I prefer Garnett's all around game (averaged at least 5 apg for six seasons straight, was a beast of a defender, and great scorer). Not really fair judging KG's career on his current play, dude's rookie season was in 1996 and clearly he's lost a few steps.

[pastis]

]I'd take prime KG over prime Dirk and take his career as whole too. Both lead their teams to championships as the best player [/B]and in saying that I have them ranked very even, but I prefer Garnett's all around game (averaged at least 5 apg for six seasons straight, was a beast of a defender, and great scorer). Not really fair judging KG's career on his current play, dude's rookie season was in 1996 and clearly he's lost a few steps.

stopped reading:lol

as the best player?:lol :lol :lol super stacked team, no excuses. pierce way better than kg, probably allen too

but well, it comes from a Duncan-Stan. A stan who loves a player who is at best top 30 all time without ginobili, parker , popovic etc. a player, who stands always under the rim and waiting for the easy layup in 90% of the time, same with rebounds. a player who is since 2003 the third best player on his team. no wonder:applause:

and no go crying under this line

___________________________

[T_L_P]

If only KG didn't settle for jumpers so much in his prime. Damn, he would have been ****ing incredible (not that he isn't already an all time great).

[fpliii]

stopped reading:lol

as the best player?:lol :lol :lol

but well, it comes from a Duncan-Stan. A stan who is loves a player who is at best top 30 all time without ginobili, parker , popovic etc. a player, who stands always under the rim and waiting for the easy layup in 90% of the time, same with rebounds. a player who is since 2003 the third best player on his team. no wonder:applause:

and no go crying under this line

___________________________
You don't honestly think Pierce was better than KG in 08, right? So let's not get into that.

Duncan standing under the basket? For a big, Timmy has a great midrange/post game:


Player Season Mid FGM/G Mid FGA/G Mid FG% Mid
ST UAST FGM/G
Duncan 1998 2.0 4.8 0.427 0.359 0.7
Duncan 1999 2.2 5.8 0.378 0.409 0.9
Duncan 2000 3.0 6.7 0.444 0.389 1.2
Duncan 2001 2.8 6.7 0.416 0.454 1.3
Duncan 2002 2.7 6.8 0.403 0.536 1.5
Duncan 2003 2.2 5.4 0.410 0.489 1.1
Duncan 2004 2.4 6.0 0.395 0.479 1.1
Duncan 2005 2.6 6.0 0.435 0.445 1.2
Duncan 2006 1.8 5.0 0.352 0.496 0.9
Duncan 2007 1.6 3.7 0.427 0.528 0.8
Duncan 2008 1.7 4.5 0.369 0.403 0.7
Duncan 2009 2.3 5.5 0.421 0.471 1.1
Duncan 2010 2.2 5.3 0.424 0.474 1.1
Duncan 2011 1.9 4.4 0.426 0.361 0.7
Duncan 2012 2.7 5.9 0.453 0.277 0.7
Duncan 2013 2.8 6.4 0.428 0.258 0.7
Duncan 2014 1.8 4.8 0.367 0.200 0.4

Don't play dumb, dude. :facepalm

Parker made Duncan? :lol

[SCdac]

stopped reading:lol

as the best player?:lol :lol :lol


Yes, KG was the best player on those championship Celtics :confusedshrug:

[pastis]

Yes, KG was the best player on those championship Celtics :confusedshrug:

its easy to be the "best" player if you have allen and pierce in your team and opponents have to guard 3 top players, with pierce and allen hot 3 point shooters as well.

you can't compare this tema to dirks 2011 and to dirks effort in this playoffs. no by a million times, thats comparing a fly with an elephant

[T_L_P]

You don't honestly think Pierce was better than KG in 08, right? So let's not get into that.

Duncan standing under the basket? For a big, Timmy has a great midrange/post game:


Player Season Mid FGM/G Mid FGA/G Mid FG% Mid
ST UAST FGM/G
Duncan 1998 2.0 4.8 0.427 0.359 0.7
Duncan 1999 2.2 5.8 0.378 0.409 0.9
Duncan 2000 3.0 6.7 0.444 0.389 1.2
Duncan 2001 2.8 6.7 0.416 0.454 1.3
Duncan 2002 2.7 6.8 0.403 0.536 1.5
Duncan 2003 2.2 5.4 0.410 0.489 1.1
Duncan 2004 2.4 6.0 0.395 0.479 1.1
Duncan 2005 2.6 6.0 0.435 0.445 1.2
Duncan 2006 1.8 5.0 0.352 0.496 0.9
Duncan 2007 1.6 3.7 0.427 0.528 0.8
Duncan 2008 1.7 4.5 0.369 0.403 0.7
Duncan 2009 2.3 5.5 0.421 0.471 1.1
Duncan 2010 2.2 5.3 0.424 0.474 1.1
Duncan 2011 1.9 4.4 0.426 0.361 0.7
Duncan 2012 2.7 5.9 0.453 0.277 0.7
Duncan 2013 2.8 6.4 0.428 0.258 0.7
Duncan 2014 1.8 4.8 0.367 0.200 0.4

Don't play dumb, dude. :facepalm

Parker made Duncan? :lol

In '06 Duncan lead the league in Playoff PER, and averaged 32 PPG on great shooting in the conference Finals. Yet Manu and Parker were better than him. :facepalm

[pastis]

You don't honestly think Pierce was better than KG in 08, right? So let's not get into that.

Duncan standing under the basket? For a big, Timmy has a great midrange/post game:


Player Season Mid FGM/G Mid FGA/G Mid FG% Mid
ST UAST FGM/G
Duncan 1998 2.0 4.8 0.427 0.359 0.7
Duncan 1999 2.2 5.8 0.378 0.409 0.9
Duncan 2000 3.0 6.7 0.444 0.389 1.2
Duncan 2001 2.8 6.7 0.416 0.454 1.3
Duncan 2002 2.7 6.8 0.403 0.536 1.5
Duncan 2003 2.2 5.4 0.410 0.489 1.1
Duncan 2004 2.4 6.0 0.395 0.479 1.1
Duncan 2005 2.6 6.0 0.435 0.445 1.2
Duncan 2006 1.8 5.0 0.352 0.496 0.9
Duncan 2007 1.6 3.7 0.427 0.528 0.8
Duncan 2008 1.7 4.5 0.369 0.403 0.7
Duncan 2009 2.3 5.5 0.421 0.471 1.1
Duncan 2010 2.2 5.3 0.424 0.474 1.1
Duncan 2011 1.9 4.4 0.426 0.361 0.7
Duncan 2012 2.7 5.9 0.453 0.277 0.7
Duncan 2013 2.8 6.4 0.428 0.258 0.7
Duncan 2014 1.8 4.8 0.367 0.200 0.4

Don't play dumb, dude. :facepalm

Parker made Duncan? :lol

I said 90 % of the time. and you are giving me right.

parker and ginobili are since 2003 the best players on his team, maybe since 2001. ill give duncan the 99 and the 2003 title, but 2005 and 2007 clearly not his effort.

[pastis]

In '06 Duncan lead the league in Playoff PER, and averaged 32 PPG on great shooting in the conference Finals. Yet Manu and Parker were better than him. :facepalm

i remember 2006. duncan easy shots from 1-3 feet, mostly layups or bankshots.
dirk fvcking huge storng mega tough shots with fvcking tough defense on him:cheers: :cheers: . was so incredible

how he made the crucial cutch FT after the clutch-play. oh man:cheers:

[ihatetimthomas]

I'd take prime KG over prime Dirk and take his career as whole too. Both lead their teams to championships as the best player and in saying that I have them ranked very even, but I prefer Garnett's all around game (averaged at least 5 apg for six seasons straight, was a beast of a defender, and great scorer). Not really fair judging KG's career on his current play, dude's rookie season was in 1996 and clearly he's lost a few steps.

Dirk was the clearcut best player, and the gap between him and the 2nd best player was extremely wide. Even if you consider KG as the best player on that Celtics team, the talent gap between him and Pierce was not very far. That makes Dirk's title run more impressive to me.

[BlkMambaGOAT]

Nah, KG was definitely better. Right now, he's probably close to done though (but someone posted stats about Miami shooting like shit near the rim this series when KG's on the court).

Dirk is generally underrated though, I think both are top 3 PFs, and if you put together a GOAT list, not many would bat an eye if you put one or both in your top 15.


http://theleftahead.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/tim-duncan-2005-nba-championship-with-2-trophies-112.jpg
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0601/bos_g_kevmts_576.jpg
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/09/61/c6/0961c6622b358e7743ffff30625e30fa.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1008/karl.malone.rare.photos/images/malone-bicep.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>>>http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_pMsB2ZndR44/S9qKRj020JI/AAAAAAAAAN8/BG-gZg5jr_s/s400/steve-nash-dirk-nowitzki-drunk-drunk-drunk.jpghttp://www.nba.com/media/timberwolves/garnett_360_040516.jpg

[~primetime~]

Dirk has always been better than KG....common knowledge.
this

[fpliii]

In '06 Duncan lead the league in Playoff PER, and averaged 32 PPG on great shooting in the conference Finals. Yet Manu and Parker were better than him. :facepalm
I'm admittedly a bit of a Parker hater since I'm not a fan of scoring PGs, and don't like the fact that he got a lot of Duncan's credit. I do however think Manu is underrated. Unquestionably not and never on Timmy's level in terms of impact, but I think he's a legitimately great player. Huge in 4th quarters/closing games out in general, probably one of the best at his position ever when he's on the floor (he doesn't give you huge minutes, but for what he is, you're getting a tremendous asset if he's on your team).

[pastis]

http://theleftahead.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/tim-duncan-2005-nba-championship-with-2-trophies-112.jpg
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0601/bos_g_kevmts_576.jpg
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/09/61/c6/0961c6622b358e7743ffff30625e30fa.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1008/karl.malone.rare.photos/images/malone-bicep.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>>>http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_pMsB2ZndR44/S9qKRj020JI/AAAAAAAAAN8/BG-gZg5jr_s/s400/steve-nash-dirk-nowitzki-drunk-drunk-drunk.jpghttp://www.nba.com/media/timberwolves/garnett_360_040516.jpg


so now mcfail is better than dirk and KG? hahahahahahahahahah, oh dude, ish never gets boring.:applause: :applause:

for me PF raning


barkley
duncan
dirk
kg

[fpliii]

http://theleftahead.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/tim-duncan-2005-nba-championship-with-2-trophies-112.jpg
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0601/bos_g_kevmts_576.jpg
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/09/61/c6/0961c6622b358e7743ffff30625e30fa.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1008/karl.malone.rare.photos/images/malone-bicep.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>>>http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_pMsB2ZndR44/S9qKRj020JI/AAAAAAAAAN8/BG-gZg5jr_s/s400/steve-nash-dirk-nowitzki-drunk-drunk-drunk.jpghttp://www.nba.com/media/timberwolves/garnett_360_040516.jpg
Barkley maybe. I could've said top 4, but I'll take the other 3. Duncan is likely the GOAT PF.

Mailman, can't get behind that, I think a lot of his play is due to Sloan and Stock. McHale is an all-time great post player on both ends, but he was known for his offense (though he was a tremendous man defender down though) and wasn't the first option on those teams.

I can't comment on others (Pettit and Hayes, mostly) since they're before my time.

[T_L_P]

i remember 2006. duncan easy shots from 1-3 feet, mostly layups or bankshots.
dirk fvcking huge storng mega tough shots with fvcking tough defense on him:cheers: :cheers: . was so incredible

how he made the crucial cutch FT after the clutch-play. oh man:cheers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wANLbsrHGok

0:35, 0:45 (double teamed, leaving Parker open), 0:55 (double teamed, leaving Barry open), 1:30, 2:40.

When did Parker or Manu command the double team? When did they average 32 PPG on incredible shooting, after just recovering from an injury nonetheless?

[BlkMambaGOAT]

so now mcfail is better than dirk and KG? hahahahahahahahahah, oh dude, ish never gets boring.:applause: :applause:

for me PF raning

malone
barkley
duncan
dirk
kg


The man ranks near last for best coaches in NBA history but as a PF he was a beast. He scored well and shot so efficiently he'd make LeStatPad/LeCherryPick cry. If he weren't teamed up with Bird he'd put up GOAT PF #'s.

This niqqa put up 26/10 playing as the Celtic's 2nd option:biggums:

[ihatetimthomas]

I'm admittedly a bit of a Parker hater since I'm not a fan of scoring PGs, and don't like the fact that he got a lot of Duncan's credit. I do however think Manu is underrated. Unquestionably not and never on Timmy's level in terms of impact, but I think he's a legitimately great player. Huge in 4th quarters/closing games out in general, probably one of the best at his position ever when he's on the floor (he doesn't give you huge minutes, but for what he is, you're getting a tremendous asset if he's on your team).

Parker is not the prototypical scoring pg who doesn't help his team and make others better. Yes, he is score first, but he plays within the system and the Spurs system requires him to be a big part of the offense. His penetration opens the floor for everyone and he is very good at finding them. His game is so good that he knows when to take over and when to step back. He has incredible balance in his game as a offensive point guard, unlike many others. Its been a long time since Duncan carried the offensive load.

In reality, Duncan can credit Parker some for helping him extend his career and play on a elite team, and it goes vice versa. But Duncan's longevity has been much aided by Parker emerging as a #1 option and being able to get the most out of him. I am not saying Parker is the main reason for success because having Duncan as the backbone truly is but he certainly deserves a LOT of credit.

[pastis]

Parker is not the prototypical scoring pg who doesn't help his team and make others better. Yes, he is score first, but he plays within the system and the Spurs system requires him to be a big part of the offense. His penetration opens the floor for everyone and he is very good at finding them. His game is so good that he knows when to take over and when to step back. He has incredible balance in his game as a offensive point guard, unlike many others. Its been a long time since Duncan carried the offensive load.

In reality, Duncan can credit Parker some for helping him extend his career and play on a elite team, and it goes vice versa. But Duncan's longevity has been much aided by Parker emerging as a #1 option and being able to get the most out of him. I am not saying Parker is the main reason for success because having Duncan as the backbone truly is but he certainly deserves a LOT of credit.

agreed. not forgetting ginobili, one of the clutchest 4th quarter player ever on his position

[ihatetimthomas]

Barkley maybe. I could've said top 4, but I'll take the other 3. Duncan is likely the GOAT PF.

Mailman, can't get behind that, I think a lot of his play is due to Sloan and Stock. McHale is an all-time great post player on both ends, but he was known for his offense (though he was a tremendous man defender down though) and wasn't the first option on those teams.

I can't comment on others (Pettit and Hayes, mostly) since they're before my time.

It sucks that mailman gets discredited so much because he played with a elite pg and a great system for both of them. Why should maximizing himself in a system be a negative? Fact remains, he was a elite player, had the stats to back it up, and had a good amount of playoff success. While he choked at times in the playoffs, he still had to go against the GOAT. His consistency and longevity and ability to keep the Jazz at the upper echelon for his entire career is a testament to his ability.

[fpliii]

Parker is not the prototypical scoring pg who doesn't help his team and make others better. Yes, he is score first, but he plays within the system and the Spurs system requires him to be a big part of the offense. His penetration opens the floor for everyone and he is very good at finding them. His game is so good that he knows when to take over and when to step back. He has incredible balance in his game as a offensive point guard, unlike many others. Its been a long time since Duncan carried the offensive load.

In reality, Duncan can credit Parker some for helping him extend his career and play on a elite team, and it goes vice versa. But Duncan's longevity has been much aided by Parker emerging as a #1 option and being able to get the most out of him. I am not saying Parker is the main reason for success because having Duncan as the backbone truly is but he certainly deserves a LOT of credit.
I understand that he's not a prototypical scoring PG, and a lot of that is, as you said, thanks to the Spurs system. He's a big part of their offense, and in the past few years has helped Timmy (among others) a ton. I do think Timmy was more important offensively last year, but for the better part of the last half decade plus, Parker has run a big part of the show.

I agree with regards to Timmy's longevity, but a lot of that is pacing his minutes, for which Pop deserves a ton of credit too.

[Jlamb47]

so now mcfail is better than dirk and KG? hahahahahahahahahah, oh dude, ish never gets boring.:applause: :applause:

for me PF raning


barkley
duncan
dirk
kg


your list is weak Barkley himself knows Duncan is better then him. He plays 2 ways Chuck was an offensive force rebounding machine but defense was garbage and he coudlnt win.

Duncan
KG
Dirk
Malone
Barkley

[MMM]

Dirk was the clearcut best player, and the gap between him and the 2nd best player was extremely wide. Even if you consider KG as the best player on that Celtics team, the talent gap between him and Pierce was not very far. That makes Dirk's title run more impressive to me.

Dirk's title run is probably among the elite.
If we are basing it on that than he would be over a lot of players.

For their careers and peak I would prefer KG but Dirk is obviously an Amazing player. Not sure why people need to tear down players in comparison to prop up the other.

[Teanett]

I understand that he's not a prototypical scoring PG, and a lot of that is, as you said, thanks to the Spurs system. He's a big part of their offense, and in the past few years has helped Timmy (among others) a ton. I do think Timmy was more important offensively last year, but for the better part of the last half decade plus, Parker has run a big part of the show.

I agree with regards to Timmy's longevity, but a lot of that is pacing his minutes, for which Pop deserves a ton of credit too.

Parker is running the show but Tim is still the main attraction.
His numbers in last years finals were insane for a 36 year old.

[T_L_P]

agreed. not forgetting ginobili, one of the clutchest 4th quarter player ever on his position

Avoiding my post I see. :applause:

Good work troll.

Anyway, back on topic. I'm not sure which PF I'd take to build my team around. Dirk definitely had more help throughout his career, but in the end he did win his title without a team nearly as good as the '08 Celtics.

[pastis]

Dirk's title run is probably among the elite.
If we are basing it on that than he would be over a lot of players.

For their careers and peak I would prefer KG but Dirk is obviously an Amazing player. Not sure why people need to tear down players in comparison to prop up the other.

exactly. water is wet. dirk better than kg. duncan without popovic, ginobili and parker top 25-30.:applause:.

[fpliii]

It sucks that mailman gets discredited so much because he played with a elite pg and a great system for both of them. Why should maximizing himself in a system be a negative? Fact remains, he was a elite player, had the stats to back it up, and had a good amount of playoff success. While he choked at times in the playoffs, he still had to go against the GOAT. His consistency and longevity and ability to keep the Jazz at the upper echelon for his entire career is a testament to his ability.
It's not about maximizing himself being a negative, but easy baskets disappear in the playoffs. You have to be able to create offense when good defenses take them away. I do think the poor postseason performer label is overstated, but we're not just comparing him to elite players. To be on the same level as all-time great players at your position, you need to be more than just elite. The other guys in the conversation IMO give you all-world defense (Timmy and KG) or dominate in the low post, and are consistently able to create their own shots and looks for others (Barkley and Dirk).

Malone had some very nice moves in the post, but like KG in the playoffs, you don't want to be too predictable or play into defenses' gameplans. He did go against one of the very best ever in MJ (albeit not at his position, though obviously going against those Bulls superteams in the playoffs is a tall order) and got out of the stacked West so he needs some credit (and again, he definitely had his moments), but we're not comparing him to elite players, but the best ever at the position.

idk man :confusedshrug: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[fpliii]

Parker is running the show but Tim is still the main attraction.
His numbers in last years finals were insane for a 36 year old.
I nearly shit myself the first half of Game 6 in the Finals last year. Crazy stuff.

[JUDGE WITNESS]

well kg should have retired hes like 38 now and been playing out of high school so :confusedshrug: dont know what you expect from him at this point in his career

[T_L_P]

exactly. water is wet. dirk better than kg. duncan without popovic, ginobili and parker top 25-30.:applause:.

That's just like saying without Carlisle and Chandler Dirk is top 40-50. More conjecture that simply isn't true.

Duncan won two titles as the man and had a top 3 all time great Playoff run pretty much without those two. All he needed to do was stay a competent player for the next 10 or so years and he would be guaranteed a top 20 spot. And he was more than compotent from that point on (20/11/3/2 in the Playoffs from '04-'14). :facepalm

[ihatetimthomas]

I understand that he's not a prototypical scoring PG, and a lot of that is, as you said, thanks to the Spurs system. He's a big part of their offense, and in the past few years has helped Timmy (among others) a ton. I do think Timmy was more important offensively last year, but for the better part of the last half decade plus, Parker has run a big part of the show.

I agree with regards to Timmy's longevity, but a lot of that is pacing his minutes, for which Pop deserves a ton of credit too.

I cant agree that Duncan was more important on offense. He still has a post game and his ability to play in the post and pass opens the floor up. But it is very clear to me Parker is the most important aspect of the Spurs offense as his penetration and ball movement is the core of their offense.

Pop is the biggest reason for the longevity of Duncan's career, but its Parker who has given him the chance to play on a elite squad as his minutes went down.

[Pointguard]

Dirk was the clearcut best player, and the gap between him and the 2nd best player was extremely wide. Even if you consider KG as the best player on that Celtics team, the talent gap between him and Pierce was not very far. That makes Dirk's title run more impressive to me.
KG was definitely the clear cut best player on that team. He scored more in the playoffs than Pierce and it was a defensive team. KG was still a better passer as well at this time. KG held that defense together.

[pastis]

That's just like saying without Carlisle and Chandler Dirk is top 40-50. More conjecture that simply isn't true.

Duncan won two titles as the man and had a top 3 all time great Playoff run pretty much without those two. All he needed to do was stay a competent player for the next 10 or so years and he would be guaranteed a top 20 spot. And he was more than compotent from that point on (20/11/3/2 in the Playoffs from '04-'14). :facepalm

man dirk with pop and cluch players besides him like ginobili, parker, and good defense player like diaw, spitter, boner etc? 5 rings 5 fmvps:bowdown: :bowdown: :applause: :applause:

[pastis]

KG was definitely the clear cut best player on that team. He scored more in the playoffs than Pierce and it was a defensive team. KG was still a better passer as well at this time. KG held that defense together.

pointguard, navy, markmadsen, biggest trolls on ish

[SCdac]

Pop paces Parker's minutes just as much as the rest of the players. and for all intents and purposes it still feels like Duncan's team (Parker alludes to it when asked). But Parker is the head of the snake, similar to the way Rip Hamilton was the Pistons best and highest scorer, but without Duncan Spurs look like a much different team.

regular season minutes (13-14)

2,158 - Duncan
2,016 - Marco
1,997 - Parker
1,974 - Diaw
1,923 - Kawhi

playoff minutes (13-14)

370 - Duncan
366 - Parker
346 - Kawhi
301 - Splitter
286 - Manu

Very impressive for a 38 year old player. Duncan is one of the best ever and not only Pop deserves credit for his longevity. Duncan's skills and abilities have translated very well, particularly his midrange game and defense. Last season he should have won DPOY imo

[T_L_P]

man dirk with pop and cluch players besides him like ginobili, parker, and good defense player like diaw, spitter, boner etc? 5 rings 5 fmvps:bowdown: :bowdown: :applause: :applause:

Except he lost to a 42 win team in the first round after just winning the MVP?

Sure he would. :facepalm

[Teanett]

It's not about maximizing himself being a negative, but easy baskets disappear in the playoffs. You have to be able to create offense when good defenses take them away. I do think the poor postseason performer label is overstated, but we're not just comparing him to elite players. To be on the same level as all-time great players at your position, you need to be more than just elite. The other guys in the conversation IMO give you all-world defense (Timmy and KG) or dominate in the low post, and are consistently able to create their own shots and looks for others (Barkley and Dirk).

Malone had some very nice moves in the post, but like KG in the playoffs, you don't want to be too predictable or play into defenses' gameplans. He did go against one of the very best ever in MJ (albeit not at his position, though obviously going against those Bulls superteams in the playoffs is a tall order) and got out of the stacked West so he needs some credit (and again, he definitely had his moments), but we're not comparing him to elite players, but the best ever at the position.

idk man :confusedshrug: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

i personally think that malone was a great playoff performer.
he went to the finals twice and ran into hakeem before and san antonio later.

i think he's achieved more than barkley or kg.

[ihatetimthomas]

KG was definitely the clear cut best player on that team. He scored more in the playoffs than Pierce and it was a defensive team. KG was still a better passer as well at this time. KG held that defense together.

Well tell me this. Was the talent gap larger between KG and Pierce or Dirk and Terry?

[pastis]

Except he lost to a 42 win team in the first round after just winning the MVP?

Sure he would. :facepalm

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2007.html


hahaha hahahahah hahahahahaha hahahahaha hahahhaha hahahaha hahahahah

what a bunch f losers beside dirk.

jason aka "mr. playoff-disappearer" or josh howard aka "1 year half-good, and than d-leage level". were the best players after dirk. no center etc. you are knowing the game and the dallas season 2007 very well:roll: :facepalm :facepalm

[T_L_P]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2007.html


hahaha hahahahah hahahahahaha hahahahaha hahahhaha hahahaha hahahahah

what a bunch f losers beside dirk.

jason aka "mr. playoff-disappearer" or josh howard aka "1 year half-good, and than d-leage level". were the best players after dirk. no center etc. you are knowing the game and the dallas season 2007 very well:roll: :facepalm :facepalm

Not sure if you're being serious? Josh Howard was the best Maverick in the Playoffs, whilst Dirk was shooting 38% from the field. Who let who down?


hahahahahahahahaha ahahahahahahahahahaha

[pastis]

Very impressive for a 38 year old player. Duncan is one of the best ever and not only Pop deserves credit for his longevity. Duncan's skills and abilities have translated very well, particularly his midrange game and defense. Last season he should have won DPOY imo

that comment must stand in the dictionary near the word "trolling, to troll, troll"

[navy]

pointguard, navy, markmadsen, biggest trolls on ish
:biggums:

[fpliii]

I cant agree that Duncan was more important on offense. He still has a post game and his ability to play in the post and pass opens the floor up. But it is very clear to me Parker is the most important aspect of the Spurs offense as his penetration and ball movement is the core of their offense.

Pop is the biggest reason for the longevity of Duncan's career, but its Parker who has given him the chance to play on a elite squad as his minutes went down.
I don't have a huge problem with what you're saying. Just to clarify BTW, when I said:


I do think Timmy was more important offensively last year, but for the better part of the last half decade plus, Parker has run a big part of the show.

I meant that last year in particular (2012-13) Duncan's mini-renaissance IMO made him more important offensively last year. It's the exception (not the rule) as far as the past half-dozen plus years are concerned (during which Parker was more important on offense).

[pastis]

Not sure if you're being serious? Josh Howard was the best Maverick in the Playoffs, whilst Dirk was shooting 38% from the field. Who let who down?


hahahahahahahahaha ahahahahahahahahahaha

yea crappy play form dirk, but dirks crappy- 2007 still on the duncan range form 2008-2014.:roll: :roll: :roll:

[ihatetimthomas]

I don't have a huge problem with what you're saying. Just to clarify BTW, when I said:



I meant that last year in particular (2012-13) Duncan's mini-renaissance IMO made him more important offensively last year. It's the exception (not the rule) as far as the past half-dozen plus years are concerned (during which Parker was more important on offense).

ok I can agree that. He was def. more effective last year than in previous seasons and that was a major reason why they went as deep as they did

[T_L_P]

yea crappy play form dirk, but dirks crappy- 2007 still on the duncan range form 2008-2014.:roll: :roll: :roll:

Duncan from '08-'14: 18/11/3/2

Parker from '08-'14: 21/3/6/1

Past-his-prime Duncan is still better than prime Parker :applause:

[pastis]

Duncan from '08-'14: 18/11/3/2

Parker from '08-'14: 21/3/6/1

Past-his-prime Duncan is still better than prime Parker :applause:

at least you agree me with crappy-2007 dirk still in duncan 08-14 range. good for you.

but honestly. what is your agenda? hating on dirk? hating on parker? hating on manu? boy, you would cry like a little girl on thinking what your spurs would be without them. nothing, no playoffs baby for at least 10 years. so stop hating them. parker ginobili and popovic:applause: :applause:

[T_L_P]

at least you agree me with crappy-2007 dirk still in duncan 08-14 range. good for you.

but honestly. what is your agenda? hating on dirk? hating on parker? hating on manu? boy, you would cry like a little girl on thinking what your spurs would be without them. nothing, no playoffs baby for at least 10 years. so stop hating them. parker ginobili and popovic:applause: :applause:

Nope, Dirk is one of the top 15 players of all-time. Manu and Parker are ****ing legends.

The better question is: what's your agenda? I posted a video of 06 where Duncan was being constantly doubled by Dallas and you skipped right over it, because it proves that he doesn't just get open 1-3 footers. In fact, he was given Parker open 15 footers. :oldlol:

[Pointguard]

Well tell me this. Was the talent gap larger between KG and Pierce or Dirk and Terry?
Doesn't matter because KG's responsibility was way more and accounted for more of the team's load - DH is at worse the third best talent in the league, but Harden had more responsibility - Harden was more important to their success. KG was the defensive keg, the offensive post presence, the rebounder, the emotional leader, the communicator and leader. Dirk was the scorer.

[pastis]

Nope, Dirk is one of the top 15 players of all-time. Manu and Parker are ****ing legends.

The better question is: what's your agenda? I posted a video of 06 where Duncan was being constantly doubled by Dallas and you skipped right over it, because it proves that he doesn't just get open 1-3 footers. In fact, he was given Parker open 15 footers. :oldlol:

how can some1 not like parker or ginobili:biggums:

yea nice plays by duncan in that games. no question. TD a legend, but in my eyes he benefits a lot of genius popovic and super-parker and clutch-ginobili.

:confusedshrug:

[pastis]

Doesn't matter because KG's responsibility was way more and accounted for more of the team's load - DH is at worse the third best talent in the league, but Harden had more responsibility - Harden was more important to their success. KG was the defensive keg, the offensive post presence, the rebounder, the emotional leader, the communicator and leader. Dirk was the scorer.

so dirk wasnt the leader, emotional leader, the rebounder, the communicator? did you even watch the series? LOL LOL LOL LOL. what a true leader he was. wow so many moments in 2011 playoffs where he shows the ture cojones and motivated so many times his m8s

[T_L_P]

how can some1 not like parker or ginobili:biggums:

yea nice plays by duncan in that games. no question. TD a legend, but in my eyes he benefits a lot of genius popovic and super-parker and clutch-ginobili.

:confusedshrug:

And that's fine -- that's your opinion, one which I don't agree with but it's your choice.

The difference between this post and all of your others is the level of troll in it. You can't seriously tell me '08-'14 Duncan was playing at the same level as '07 Playoff Dirk, who shot 38% from the field...or that Duncan was below Parker and Manu as players from '04-'08, when he was still a perennial MVP candidate and was still posting up incredible series stats (32/12/4/1/3 vs. Dallas, 27/14/1/4 vs. Phoenix), whilst simultaneously anchoring top 3 defenses.

There's an exaggerated opinion and then there's trolling...the latter of which is what you do most of the time. :confusedshrug:

[pastis]

And that's fine -- that's your opinion, one which I don't agree with but it's your choice.

The difference between this post and all of your others is the level of troll in it. You can't seriously tell me '08-'14 Duncan was playing at the same level as '07 Playoff Dirk, who shot 38% from the field...or that Duncan was below Parker and Manu as players from '04-'08, when he was still a perennial MVP candidate and was still posting up incredible series stats (32/12/4/1/3 vs. Dallas, 27/14/1/4 vs. Phoenix), whilst simultaneously anchoring top 3 defenses.

There's an exaggerated opinion and then there's trolling...the latter of which is what you do most of the time. :confusedshrug:

the difference is: if dirk only socres 19 points and grabs over 11 rebounds = choker.

if duncan scores 14 points, 10 rebounds, he had a solid game. 16-20 points is a high point game. so there is a different of chocking-scala.
and yes 2007 dirk is withoutany question comparable with 08-14 duncan, without any problems. he struggled in his shot, caus nellie found the right way to guard him and his father had a big OP at that time, but its still on duncans level.
btw: when your watching a spurs game and looking afterwards on the boxscore your seeing: oh duncan had 10 reb and 15 points? i didnt' see him the whole game. spurs won tough. if dirk isnt dropping the 25 ppg everyone is freaking out and mavs losing

[fpliii]

the difference is: if dirk only socres 19 points and grabs over 11 rebounds = choker.

if duncan scores 14 points, 10 rebounds, he had a solid game. 16-20 points is a high point game. so there is a different of chocking-scala.
and yes 2007 dirk is withoutany question comparable with 08-14 duncan, without any problems. he struggled in his shot, caus nellie found the right way to guard him and his father had a big OP at that time, but its still on duncans level.
btw: when your watching a spurs game and looking afterwards on the boxscore your seeing: oh duncan had 10 reb and 15 points? i didnt' see him the whole game. spurs won tough. if dirk isnt dropping the 25 ppg everyone is freaking out and mavs losing
Why didn't you mention defense at all when comparing Dirk to Duncan dude?

[pastis]

Why didn't you mention defense at all when comparing Dirk to Duncan dude?

do you want that i start with the statistics showing that dirk is a way underrated defender and that mavs are way worse when he is off the flor?

[T_L_P]

Why didn't you mention defense at all when comparing Dirk to Duncan dude?

Exactly. He clearly doesn't understand the difference between 17/11 whilst anchoring the defense and 25/8 whilst being abused by every opponent.

And Dirk is 35, and has way less mileage on him.

And :oldlol: at Dirk's shot not falling. Duncan's shot was falling in '05, yet you call him a scrub.

[pastis]

What was so impressive about TD and the 99 Spurs Finals win? They beat the 8th seeded Knicks in 5 games.


Robinson was still a factor. avg. 15.6ppg, 10rpg and 2.4blocks.

Plus had great 3 point shooters, in Kerr and Sean Elliot.

damn even 99 big help

[fpliii]

do you want that i start with the statistics showing that dirk is a way underrated defender and that mavs are way worse when he is off the flor?
Which statistic, and during which season(s)?

Dirk is an underrated defender for sure, but he's levels below Timmy in that regard.

[T_L_P]

damn even 99 big help

Who doesn't have help? Kobe had Shaq, Jordan had Pippen, Kareem had Magic.

The difference is Duncan, along with Dirk, didn't have real superstar help, which is what dominates the league. And yes, Dirk did have less help than Duncan.

[T_L_P]

Also, what does Sean ****ing Elliot have to do with anything? Dude put up 8/3/3 in 36 minutes in the '99 Finals, and he shot under 35% :oldlol:

[pastis]

Exactly. He clearly doesn't understand the difference between 17/11 whilst anchoring the defense and 25/8 whilst being abused by every opponent.

And Dirk is 35, and has way less mileage on him.

And :oldlol: at Dirk's shot not falling. Duncan's shot was falling in '05, yet you call him a scrub.

ok ok, so NOW you wanna compare DIRKS playing style with DUNCANs? comparing their playing styles with focus on the age?

duncan only near the rim and under the rim, easy baskets? and dirk fvcking tough shots on fvcking tough defense, carrying the team for 16 years on his shoulders. SO NOW you wanne even compare their ages and their playing styles? common dude, even a bandwagoner can't compare the tough dirk playing style with duncans. no one can

[hookul]

While the thread title is useless, I am scratching my head how anyone can say that KG title run was more impressive than Dirks.

Dirk's team beat a Miami Team with the same core that has won 9 playoff series in a row, has 2 titles in a row with being on track for the 3rd in a row.

Even in the year Dirk's team beat them in the finals, Miami has won the previous rounds of the 2011 playoffs with a combined 12-3 record.

Or in other words, the last and ONLY time in the last 3,5 years these Miami Heat with this core of players were ever beat in the playoffs was by Dirk's team with the 2nd and 3rd best players being Chandler and Terry. Not to mention Dirk's legendary (yes I said it) performance against OKC and closing minutes of some finals games. This is something that far outweighs KG title run performance.

[T_L_P]

ok ok, so NOW you wanna compare DIRKS playing style with DUNCANs? comparing their playing styles with focus on the age?

duncan only near the rim and under the rim, easy baskets? and dirk fvcking tough shots on fvcking tough defense, carrying the team for 16 years on his shoulders. SO NOW you wanne even compare their ages and their playing styles? common dude, even a bandwagoner can't compare the tough dirk playing style with duncans. no one can

You see, this is when you become a troll again. If it's so easy to get shots under the basket, why didn't Dirk do it? Why didn't he become a low post player like Shaq, Hakeem and Duncan? It takes ability to play a low post game. And now you're critisising Duncan for being able to master it?

You give Duncan no credit. Didn't you write in this very thread that it might not have even been Duncan's team in '02/'03? Are you serious? He was probably the only player opponents game-planned for, and he was being doubled at every touch. That, again, takes a special kind of ability, something a high post player can't do.

[pastis]

You see, this is when you become a troll again. If it's so easy to get shots under the basket, why didn't Dirk do it? Why didn't he become a low post player like Shaq, Hakeem and Duncan? It takes ability to play a low post game. And now you're critisising Duncan for being able to master it?

You give Duncan no credit. Didn't you write in this very thread that it might not have even been Duncan's team in '02/'03? Are you serious? He was probably the only player opponents game-planned for, and he was being double at every touch. That, again, takes a special kind of ability, something a high post player can't do.

if you want so, its kind of ability. i dont know what cuban and coaches wanted or not, but i believe, if they wanted dirk to be a C, he would go out and be center. different coaching, different focus.
second of all: what is your statement changing on the fact, that duncans playing style is by far not as exhausted as dirks play? where is even there your problem? i dont get it.

[pastis]

While the thread title is useless, I am scratching my head how anyone can say that KG title run was more impressive than Dirks.

Dirk's team beat a Miami Team with the same core that has won 9 playoff series in a row, has 2 titles in a row with being on track for the 3rd in a row.

Even in the year Dirk's team beat them in the finals, Miami has won the previous rounds of the 2011 playoffs with a combined 12-3 record.

Or in other words, the last and ONLY time in the last 3,5 years these Miami Heat with this core of players were ever beat in the playoffs was by Dirk's team with the 2nd and 3rd best players being Chandler and Terry. Not to mention Dirk's legendary (yes I said it) performance against OKC and closing minutes of some finals games. This is something that far outweighs KG title run performance.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :applause: :applause: :bowdown: :bowdown: :applause: :applause:

[T_L_P]

if you want so, its kind of ability. i dont know what cuban and coaches wanted or not, but i believe, if they wanted dirk to be a C, he would go out and be center. different coaching, different focus.
second of all: what is your statement changing on the fact, that duncans playing style is by far not as exhausted as dirks play? where is even there your problem? i dont get it.

Well, in Duncan's prime it was. Again, the strain of having to play under constant double teaming is exhausting. But that doesn't change what we're talking about: you talk about Duncan getting easy baskets as if it's a bad thing. What would you rather have, him jacking up 3s?

It's clear that what appeals to you is entertaining basketball. Not smart, decisive, high IQ basketball (everything Duncan is great at).

[creepingdeath]

Exactly. He clearly doesn't understand the difference between 17/11 whilst anchoring the defense and 25/8 whilst being abused by every opponent.

And Dirk is 35, and has way less mileage on him.

And :oldlol: at Dirk's shot not falling. Duncan's shot was falling in '05, yet you call him a scrub.
Which is quite the exaggeration. Yeah, Dirk's defense has fallen off quite a bit this season, and it clearly showed in the playoffs. The main reason for that is his lack of lateral quickness, which makes him awful in situations when he has to switch. However, you can't expect him to guard smaller and quicker players at this age. Naturally, the Spurs and especially Parker abused that, but that's also on Carlisle (why would he have his team switch like that in PnR situations) and the other defending player. Against other low post players (such as Duncan, for example) Dirk is still doing more than okay on the defensive end.

You are right in saying that Duncan has more mileage than Dirk; obviously, he is also two years Nowitzki's senior. Keep in mind, though, that Dirk has capped more than 100 games for Germany, playing in a sh*t ton of tournaments with far more physical play than the NBA. And except for the 12/13 season, when Dirk had the first serious injury of his career, Dirk has been the better player since at least 2009.

... which still doesn't change the fact that Duncan is the superior player and clearly the better defender. That pastis guy is just trolling y'all.

[pastis]

Well, in Duncan's prime it was. Again, the strain of having to play under constant double teaming is exhausting. But that doesn't change what we're talking about: you talk about Duncan getting easy baskets as if it's a bad thing. What would you rather have, him jacking up 3s?

It's clear that what appeals to you is entertaining basketball. Not smart, decisive, high IQ basketball (everything Duncan is great at).

so yor saying dirk is not a smart and intelligent basketball player?

[Dragonyeuw]

KG more versatile and complete player, Dirk better scorer. Which you consider more valuable is subjective, but I honestly don't see prime KG taking the 2011 Mavs to the championship. Even though he was a 20ppg scorer, KG really wasn't a 'dominant' offensive player, at least not the kind who could strap the team on his back like Dirk did in 2011. Basically, with Dirk you can give him a solid interior rebounder/defender and some roleplaying vets and he'll put you in contention. KG needed two closers in Minnesota( Sprewell and Cassell) and Boston( Pierce and Allen) to have any real team success.

[Pointguard]

so dirk wasnt the leader, emotional leader, the rebounder, the communicator? did you even watch the series? LOL LOL LOL LOL. what a true leader he was. wow so many moments in 2011 playoffs where he shows the ture cojones and motivated so many times his m8s
Emotional leader was Chandler and Terry, Kidd the leader and communicator, Chandler the rebounder. Dirk was never a vocal guy, never a standout leader, he averaged 7 boards that year. Are you confused? Do you know who we are discussing?

[pastis]

Emotional leader was Chandler and Terry, Kidd the leader and communicator, Chandler the rebounder. Dirk was never a vocal guy, never a standout leader, he averaged 7 boards that year. Are you confused? Do you know who we are discussing?

what the ****? do you watched the series? do you watched how dirk screamed at his m8s on several laker games not to give up and to fight right back. did you see how dirk was at the time outs explaining with kidd things to the others? did you see the okc and miami series?
what you just said must be banned for ever bi1atch. you, navy, markmadsen biggest trolls on ish. never read such a crap. dirk not the vocal guy? dirk not the emotional leader and communicator? dude switc your playstation off, your living in a game-world or what?:biggums:

if you would follow a little bit the dallas mavericks and read serveral interviews with the now-players, ex-player, coaches etc. you would understand, that dirk is exactly that you don't want him to be. little clown

[DirkNowitzki41]

whats new?

[D-FENS]

The best way to think of KG is that he was the greatest Scottie Pippen that ever lived. He just never had his Jordan. He had some pretty good teams like the Cassell Wolves and the Pierce Celtics, but he never had a true partner who could dominate offensively. Paired with Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady or Kobe Bryant in their primes, and he would have won a championship or two.

I hate people comparing him to Duncan because they are just different players. KG is one of the greatest all around players ever, but he was never on Duncan's level offensively. Duncan was and still is a go to scorer. Don;t come at me with ppg either, it's more than ppg.

[Pointguard]

what the ****? do you watched the series? do you watched how dirk screamed at his m8s on several laker games not to give up and to fight right back. did you see how dirk was at the time outs explaining with kidd things to the others? did you see the okc and miami series?
what you just said must be banned for ever bi1atch. you, navy, markmadsen biggest trolls on ish. never read such a crap. dirk not the vocal guy? dirk not the emotional leader and communicator? dude switc your playstation off, your living in a game-world or what?:biggums:

if you would follow a little bit the dallas mavericks and read serveral interviews with the now-players, ex-player, coaches etc. you would understand, that dirk is exactly that you don't want him to be. little clown
Not that you are coherent when sober :lol ... but now that you are drunk, it's like putting together a sad puzzle.

[pastis]

Not that you are coherent when sober :lol ... but now that you are drunk, it's like putting together a sad puzzle.

mon petit, au moins je suis capable de parler plusieurs langues. toi, tu ne sortiras jamais de ton pays natal, la meilleure chose pour toi sera de visiter ton propre pays. limit

[Black and White]

Who is this Pastis dude acting like Dirk is on Duncans tier??

[Pointguard]

[QUOTE=pastis]mon petit, au moins je suis capable de parler plusieurs langues. toi, tu ne sortiras jamais de ton pays natal, la meilleure chose pour toi sera de visiter ton propre pays. limit

[DMAVS41]

Which is quite the exaggeration. Yeah, Dirk's defense has fallen off quite a bit this season, and it clearly showed in the playoffs. The main reason for that is his lack of lateral quickness, which makes him awful in situations when he has to switch. However, you can't expect him to guard smaller and quicker players at this age. Naturally, the Spurs and especially Parker abused that, but that's also on Carlisle (why would he have his team switch like that in PnR situations) and the other defending player. Against other low post players (such as Duncan, for example) Dirk is still doing more than okay on the defensive end.

You are right in saying that Duncan has more mileage than Dirk; obviously, he is also two years Nowitzki's senior. Keep in mind, though, that Dirk has capped more than 100 games for Germany, playing in a sh*t ton of tournaments with far more physical play than the NBA. And except for the 12/13 season, when Dirk had the first serious injury of his career, Dirk has been the better player since at least 2009.

... which still doesn't change the fact that Duncan is the superior player and clearly the better defender. That pastis guy is just trolling y'all.

This.

How is LMA and the Blazers doing against the Spurs defensively? The Blazers are making the Mavs look like an elite defensive team with their pick and roll coverage and inability to do anything to stop them.

As for the OP...

Meh...total toss up between Dirk and KG.

Duncan is without a doubt the clear cut best power forward ever and anyone taking Dirk over him is a fool.

Having said that though, Duncan played with clear cut better help and coaching throughout his career...and should have quite better results (as he does) to show for it....especially when Duncan's strongest teams came when the league was the weakest like in 99, 03 Dirk injury with no finals opponent, and the 07 season.

Things don't always have to be black and white. Duncan was better than Dirk...doesn't make Dirk a scrub or something....and certainly doesn't make Dirk some horrid defender or rebounder in his prime...which he just wasn't.

My all time power forwards rankings...this changes a lot because of longevity stuff;

1. Duncan

Gap

2. Dirk
3. Pettit

Malone/KG/Barkley...etc.

Not sure where I'd rank those guys...

[bizil]

I've always felt KG, Duncan, and Dirk ALL revolutionized the PF position big time. Historically, KG and Dirk are around the same area. And sure as of now, give me Dirk. But also keep in mind that KG was WAY more versatile and was relied upon for way more duties. KG was expected to be his team's best scorer, rebounder, defender (having to defend big swingmen all the way down to C's), and in many instances even best passer. So sure KG's body eventually broke down. KG in my book is the most versatile PF of all time along with being an alpha dog level scorer. Dirk is a better alpha dog and arguably the toughest cover ever at PF no doubt. But give me peak KG over peak Dirk. But both are so great, it could depend on what your team needs.

[creepingdeath]

Pointguard making up sh*t as usual. Yeah, Chandler was the Mavs' top rebounder, so what? He was averaging 9.2rpg compared to Dirk's 8.1 rpgs. Quite the gap, right? Not to mention that Nowitzki was the top rebounder of the finals...

Kudos to Garnett, though, for averaging more rebounds than Kendrick f*cking Perkins... :lol Emotional leader, communicator and leader? Sounds like a lot of BS terms for the one and the same thing. Dirk, unlike Garnett, is a real leader, not some fake tough guy who talks trash against smaller players..