Empty stats Jordan

[livinglegend]

1986:
43.7 ppg , 6.3 rbs on .505 FG
SWEEP

1987:
35.7 PPG, 7.0 rbs on .417 FG ( that s pretty bad)
SWEEP!

[Straight_Ballin]

Three peat 2x.

6/6 perfection in finals.

Nuff said

[Warfan]

Yeah he should have beat one of the best teams in the history of the league

[Trollsmasher]

losing record without Pippen

next

[Roundball_Rock]

1987:
35.7 PPG, 7.0 rbs on .417 FG ( that s pretty bad)
SWEEP!

The Bulls went 40-42 that year, a season in which MJ averaged 37 ppg (on 28 FGA and 12 FTA per game) but gets a pass while Wilt gets crucified for losing in the conference finals each year to the Celtics. :oldlol:


Yeah he should have beat one of the best teams in the history of the league

He should not have been the #8 seed--not when he was putting up 37/5/5.

[livinglegend]

Yeah he should have beat one of the best teams in the history of the league


He did lost 1-3 against Milwaukee the year before, in the first round.

And

He waited for all the good teams to get old and then attack the weaker competition with his stacked cast ( that won 55 games with they replaced him with a d-league scrub)?

[jimmy77x]

op mad lebron couldn't even dream of putting up those kinds of numbers :lol stay jealous ph@ggot. lebeta will never be the GOAT, EVER.

[Combat Wombat]

1986:
43.7 ppg , 6.3 rbs on .505 FG
SWEEP

1987:
35.7 PPG, 7.0 rbs on .417 FG ( that s pretty bad)
SWEEP!

The only thing that is empty here is that sack hanging between your legs.

[livinglegend]

The Bulls went 40-42 that year, a season in which MJ averaged 37 ppg (on 28 FGA and 12 FTA per game) but gets a pass while Wilt gets crucified for losing in the conference finals each year to the Celtics. :oldlol:



He should not have been the #8 seed--not when he was putting up 37/5/5.

Talk about double standards! Wilt was stuck in that kind of situation almost his whole career.

[livinglegend]

losing record without Pippen

next

1-9 without pippen in the playoffs:oldlol: :oldlol:

[JebronLames]

1986:
43.7 ppg , 6.3 rbs on .505 FG
SWEEP

1987:
35.7 PPG, 7.0 rbs on .417 FG ( that s pretty bad)
SWEEP!
That's what happens when there's no ball movement.

[BlazerRed]

The only thing that is empty here is that sack hanging between your legs.
:roll: ether. OP done.

[Roundball_Rock]

Talk about double standards! Wilt was stuck in that kind of situation almost his whole career.

How many times did Wilt lose in the first round? How many times was Wilt swept in the first round? How many times did Wilt have a losing record? Wilt was in the conference finals or NBA finals pretty much every year...


That's what happens when there's no ball movement.

Yup. That is why the triangle was key to pushing the Bulls over the hump, as was giving Pippen the main ballhandling role. It is no coincidence that Pippen led the team in assists every year from 1991-1998.

[Magic 32]

1-9 without pippen in the playoffs:oldlol: :oldlol:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/2302081/scottie-pippen-towels-o.gif

[sportjames23]

Three peat 2x.

6/6 perfection in finals.

Nuff said


/thread


Oh, and OP is a fakkit.

[livinglegend]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/2302081/scottie-pippen-towels-o.gif

That was WCF!
Jordan never made it past 1st round without pippen. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

That was WCF!
Jordan never made it past 1st round without pippen. :oldlol:

Pippen led his team to within minutes of the NBA finals--and probably a title since the Blazers and Lakers were the two best teams. Had they advanced, the Pacers would have stood no shot. Keep in mind the Blazers were down 3-1 and rallied behind Pippen's leadership to force a Game 7.

What Pippen was upset about was a crucial foul call that the refs missed at the end of the game. Had Sabonis went to the line, Portland would have won the game and, ultimately, the series and presumably the title.

[livinglegend]

/thread


Oh, and OP is a fakkit.

you are a loser


ETHER:oldlol:

[livinglegend]

Pippen led his team to within minutes of the NBA finals--and probably a title since the Blazers and Lakers were the two best teams. Had they advanced, the Pacers would have stood no shot. Keep in mind the Blazers were down 3-1 and rallied behind Pippen's leadership to force a Game 7.

What Pippen was upset about was a crucial foul call that the refs missed at the end of the game. Had Sabonis went to the line, Portland would have won the game and, ultimately, the series and presumably the title.

That title was Blazers and Pippen's. Sabonis s foul trouble and suspect fts for LAL were responsible for that ''comeback''. Without the refs favouritism, Pippen wins the championship.

[Roundball_Rock]

I know. :cry: Imagine if Pippen won a 7th ring. A lot of the stupidity we see about him would not exist.

Pippen had a winning record every season except his last. :rockon:

[livinglegend]

I know. :cry: Imagine if Pippen won a 7th ring. A lot of the stupidity we see about him would not exist.

Pippen had a winning record every season except his last. :rockon:

The league didnt want to destroy Jordan s legacy.

[Magic 32]

Keep in mind the Blazers were down 3-1 and rallied behind Pippen's leadership to force a Game 7.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200006020POR.html

[Roundball_Rock]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200006020POR.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4xsp0Y7pg4

1:05-1:17.

Costas: "He (Pippen) has willed Portland back from the brink of elimination--sometimes by his mere presence."

Pippen was a true leader, on the court and in the locker room. He was the player Bulls players turned to for encouragement, as Phil Jackson noted, and was always the most liked player on the team. That does not show in empty stats but it shows in the win column. (Neither does Pippen's role in the defense, which contained peak Shaq in that series as well as anyone did from 2000-2002)

[Warfan]

He did lost 1-3 against Milwaukee the year before, in the first round.

And

He waited for all the good teams to get old and then attack the weaker competition with his stacked cast ( that won 55 games with they replaced him with a d-league scrub)?

So ur gonna blame a rookie for losing to 59-23 bucks team while he averaged 29/6/9/3 with a shit team. And mj had to go through Detroit, knicks, cavs, pacers, hawks, magic and the heat just in the east alone. Mj would literally average 40, atleast up until the finals, if he were playing in the east now.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yup. That is why the triangle was key to pushing the Bulls over the hump, as was giving Pippen the main ballhandling role. It is no coincidence that Pippen led the team in assists every year from 1991-1998.
Well yea, he had ball handling duties delegated to him. He played his role well. MJ was the one busy having to volume score in the playoffs like no other player in history. Did you expect him to have to handle the ball as well? Let me know when Scottie ever put up 32 ppg / 8 rpg / 8 apg for an entire season. Pippen at his best was a low 20's ppg caliber scorer.

LMAO @ you calling yourself a Bulls fan though. Piling on MJ along with OP. We're supposed to critique Sophomore, and Junior year Jordan for not getting past the first round when he had an absolute shit supporting cast until basically 1989 when after a couple years of molding Pippen was finally coming into his own. Yet still wasn't mentally strong enough until 1991?

:oldlol:

Scottie was NEVER a closer. He just didn't have elite half court scoring ability, or quite frankly mental toughness to get the job done as an Alpha for a team. Was a known choker at the free throw line too.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

1-9 without pippen in the playoffs:oldlol: :oldlol:
http://cdn.niketalk.com/2/2f/350x700px-LL-2ff5111e_michael-jordan-laughing.gif

[livinglegend]

Well yea, he had ball handling duties delegated to him. He played his role well. MJ was the one busy having to volume score in the playoffs like no other player in history. Did you expect him to have to handle the ball as well? Let me know when Scottie ever put up 32 ppg / 8 rpg / 8 apg for an entire season. Pippen at his best was a low 20's ppg caliber scorer.

LMAO @ you calling yourself a Bulls fan though. Piling on MJ along with OP. We're supposed to critique Sophomore, and Junior year Jordan for not getting past the first round when he had an absolute shit supporting cast until basically 1989 when after a couple years of molding Pippen was finally coming into his own. Yet still wasn't mentally strong enough until 1991?

:oldlol:

Scottie was NEVER a closer. He just didn't have elite half court scoring ability, or quite frankly mental toughness to get the job done as an Alpha for a team. Was a known choker at the free throw line too.

Lebron is getting shited on for not winning the championship with the Cavaliers that had Mo Williams as the 2nd option.

next

[Roundball_Rock]

Why does MJ get free passes that no other player gets? Wilt is crucified practically daily on ISH for not winning despite posting great individual stats--and Wilt was in the ECF (well, technically EDF) or NBA Finals practically every year!

MJ is the only GOAT-caliber player who took 4 years to get out the first round. People like Kareem, Wilt, Bird, Russell joined non-playoff teams and had them in at least the conference finals as rookies and promptly in the NBA finals. Shaq took a 21 win team to 41-41 as a rookie and was in the NBA finals in his third season. Jordan needed 4 years to get past the first round, 5 to reach the ECF and 7 to reach the NBA finals. No other GOAT caliber player needed that much time, even if they too joined bad teams. They made them much better...and did so quickly. It took Chicago years to build a team to suit MJ.

Hell, Lebron straight out of high school lifted a 17 win team to 35 wins! He made the Finals with scrubs at 22 years old and was leading a contender, with scrubs, in 2009 and 2010. Why couldn't the alleged GOAT? The guy was putting up 37/5/5 and going 40-42 and getting swept in the first round! :roll:

[oarabbus]

1-9 without pippen in the playoffs:oldlol: :oldlol:


:eek:

MJ still > Bron doe

[livinglegend]

:eek:

MJ still > Bron doe

i m not a lebron stan

ETHER :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[sportjames23]

you are a loser


ETHER:oldlol:


You still a fakkit, doe.

[livinglegend]

You still a fakkit, doe.

i m not

ether :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Sarcastic]

Lebron's playoff stats for first 2 years:

2004: missed playoffs (pretty shitty)
2005: missed playoffs (pretty shitty)

[oarabbus]

i m not

ether :oldlol: :oldlol:

You need to actually ether them to claim ether

[Roundball_Rock]

Lebron has never lost in the first round. :bowdown:

[Trollsmasher]

Lebron's playoff stats for first 2 years:

2004: missed playoffs (pretty shitty)
2005: missed playoffs (pretty shitty)
It's hard to miss playoffs when there are 11 teams in your conference like there were in MJ's early years:lol

[Sarcastic]

It's hard to miss playoffs when there are 11 teams in your conference like there were in MJ's early years:lol

As if the Eastern Conference was something special in 2004 or 2005 :rolleyes:

[Roundball_Rock]

The Bulls made the playoffs at 38-44, 30-52, and 40-42. :lol

[Warfan]

:eek:

MJ still > Bron doe

When u face a near 60 win bucks team as a rookie and then one if the greatest teams ever while playing on a shit team, your record isn't gonna be good. In 89 scottie avg 13/7/4 in the playoffs and mike carried the bulls to the ECF, goig 6 games against the bad boys. Year before scottie avg like 10 points and they lost to Detroit in the semis. In 1990 mike again carried the team and pushed Detroit to 7 in the conference finals, while scottie sat with a migrane during game 7. Mike avg 32/7/6 against Detroit while scottie avg 16/6/3.

So that record isn't really relevant. Scottie was great during the 1st 3peat, worse during the 2nd (still pretty good) but he got older and injuries messed him up a bit.

[JUDGE WITNESS]

It's hard to miss playoffs when there are 11 teams in your conference like there were in MJ's early years:lol
:lol

[Fawker]

still the best coming of age story

[sportjames23]

The Bulls made the playoffs at 38-44, 30-52, and 40-42. :lol

In a deeper Eastern Conference. How 'bout that?

Meanwhile, your boy Lebron missed the playoffs his first two years, fakkit. :lol

[livinglegend]

The Bulls made the playoffs at 38-44, 30-52, and 40-42. :lol

And they are complaining about the east now.
30-52 :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Lebron missed the playoffs when he was 19 and 20 years old. Since Lebron turned 22 he has been contending for championships every year, regardless of whether he has scrubs or great players around him. :bowdown:

Lebron was unlucky that 35 wins (improving a 17 win team straight from high school--MJ could only lift his 27 win team to 38 wins, by far the smallest rookie impact of any GOAT candidate) and 42-40 were not enough to make the playoffs those years. It is interesting the only losing season Lebron had was when he was 19 years old. MJ was on five losing teams in fifteen years (precisely the 5 years he did not play with Pippen). :lol

[knicksman]

jordan 32/8/8 were empty stats. Guess who plays like him. Bran and robertson

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ's supporting cast was definitely worse than LeBron's for a number of seasons. That's including a couple years where the Bulls had young Pippen.

Win / Loss record is irrelevant if you're still getting into the playoffs v.s. not getting there at all. It's only relative to that year's competition.

Scottie Pippen wasn't a legit player until 1989.

Hell even in the '89 playoffs, where MJ dragged a team having no business getting as far as they did to the ECF, giving the eventual champions their only losses ... Scottie only put up 14 ppg.

For comparison sake the much maligned 2009 Mo Williams was putting up 16 ppg.

:oldlol:

[knicksman]

How many times did Wilt lose in the first round? How many times was Wilt swept in the first round? How many times did Wilt have a losing record? Wilt was in the conference finals or NBA finals pretty much every year...



Yup. That is why the triangle was key to pushing the Bulls over the hump, as was giving Pippen the main ballhandling role. It is no coincidence that Pippen led the team in assists every year from 1991-1998.

And thats the key, jordan became a team player while wilt and bran cant forego stats. Thats why theyre losers until they have 3 superstars on their team. So stay mad fakkit. Jordan 6 legit rings while bran and wilt 1 legit ring and 3 beta rings combine. LOL

[Asukal]

I'm not gonna turn into a gaylauber and post meaningless stats that doesn't explain anything. All I can say is 6 rings, 6 fmvps, 5 mvps, 10 scoring titles, 1 dpoy, and virtually no weaknesses physically or mentally. Leflop who? :oldlol:

[Angel Face]

6/6 in the Finals, 6x FMVP, 5x MVP, 10x Scoring Champion, 3x Steals Leader, DPOY, etc... Empty stats. Some of these Bron stans are reaching another level of stupidity.

Before Wade and Bosh, Lebron was the laughing stock of the NBA. Last year he was a 3-point shot away from being the laughing stock again only to be saved by Ray Allen. Least respected superstar in the league.

[DJ Leon Smith]

Lebron is getting shited on for not winning the championship with the Cavaliers that had Mo Williams as the 2nd option.

next

I think he gets shitted on more for scoring eight points in a NBA Finals game with Dwyane Wade as his second option.

[Lonely_Sandberg]

1986:
43.7 ppg , 6.3 rbs on .505 FG
SWEEP

1987:
35.7 PPG, 7.0 rbs on .417 FG ( that s pretty bad)
SWEEP!

http://www.abload.de/img/santiago3lij77.gif

[OldSchoolBBall]

MJ is the only GOAT-caliber player who took 4 years to get out the first round. People like Kareem, Wilt, Bird, Russell joined non-playoff teams and had them in at least the conference finals as rookies and promptly in the NBA finals. Shaq took a 21 win team to 41-41 as a rookie and was in the NBA finals in his third season. Jordan needed 4 years to get past the first round, 5 to reach the ECF and 7 to reach the NBA finals. No other GOAT caliber player needed that much time, even if they too joined bad teams.

Which of those players faced a team as good as '85 Milwaukee in the first round (plus MJ was a rookie), and then a top 10 team of ALL TIME in the first round for two consecutive seasons, and then a top 15 team of all time in the second and third rounds for the three seasons after that? Yeah...none of them.

[sportjames23]

Which of those players faced a team as good as '85 Milwaukee in the first round (plus MJ was a rookie), and then a top 10 team of ALL TIME in the first round for two consecutive seasons, and then a top 15 team of all time in the second and third rounds for the three seasons after that? Yeah...none of them.


Notice how MJ detractors love to omit information like that. And for a supposed Bulls fan like Roundball_Rock to spew this garbage is ridiculous. That's why that fakkit needs to have a seat.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Notice how MJ detractors love to omit information like that. And for a supposed Bulls fan like Roundball_Rock to spew this garbage is ridiculous. That's why that fakkit needs to have a seat.
:oldlol:

Guy still trying to dupe new posters.. RBR is anything BUT a Jordan/Bulls fan

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Lebron missed the playoffs when he was 19 and 20 years old. Since Lebron turned 22 he has been contending for championships every year, regardless of whether he has scrubs or great players around him. :bowdown:

Lebron was unlucky that 35 wins (improving a 17 win team straight from high school--MJ could only lift his 27 win team to 38 wins, by far the smallest rookie impact of any GOAT candidate) and 42-40 were not enough to make the playoffs those years. It is interesting the only losing season Lebron had was when he was 19 years old. MJ was on five losing teams in fifteen years (precisely the 5 years he did not play with Pippen). :lol
more ETHER for these jordan riders:applause:

[riseagainst]

lebron d1ckriders are so delusional.

[riseagainst]

empty stats lebron 2009 ECF: 38-8-8
where as Kobe backdoor swept that team.

Jordan > Kobe >>> empty stats Lebron.

[StrongLurk]

1986:
43.7 ppg , 6.3 rbs on .505 FG
SWEEP

1987:
35.7 PPG, 7.0 rbs on .417 FG ( that s pretty bad)
SWEEP!

That is a crazy amount of shots.

[Orlando Magic]

Jordan is by far the greatest INDIVIDUAL, able to beat any single guy 1 on 1 perimeter basketball player of all time... this isn't even close. It's not a contest, and there has never been another living being worthy of even entering into the discussion.

That being said... LeBron is a guy that actually elevates the play of his teammates to make them appear to be better players than they actually are, and Jordan was not that type of guy.

There's a multitude of factors to consider when trying to decide which guy you'd rather have but I'll break down some bullet points....

Offensive team impact... LeBron
Offensive individual impact... Jordan
Scrub team needing to be elevated... LeBron
Great team needing that extra push... Jordan
Closing moments/clutchness/mental toughness... Jordan
Defensive individual impact... Jordan
Defensive team impact... LeBron (close to a wash)
1 on 1 tournament... Jordan (not even close)
5 on 5 tournament teams being equal... most teams... LeBron

People can argue back and forth but there's no clear cut answer... the guy you want/need is going to be entirely dependent upon what your team needs... and in most cases I'm taking LeBron. Basketball is a team sport... it's not boxing.

Jordan was extremely fortunate that Pippen came along... because otherwise... who knows... that's not to say that Jordan was some type of loser without him, it's just that... it's highly improbable that he would be held in such high regard.

[riseagainst]

That is a crazy amount of shots.

32 shots for 86 and 28 shots for 87.

[atljonesbro]

Never seen a player get so many free passes like Jordan. Jordan couldn't do shit without Pippen, basically Kevin Love at SG. Just racking up the empty stats. At least LeBron could win games and even carried his scrub team to a finals appearance, much more the Jordan could ever say before Pippen.

[Knoe Itawl]

Jordan is by far the greatest INDIVIDUAL, able to beat any single guy 1 on 1 perimeter basketball player of all time... this isn't even close. It's not a contest, and there has never been another living being worthy of even entering into the discussion.

That being said... LeBron is a guy that actually elevates the play of his teammates to make them appear to be better players than they actually are, and Jordan was not that type of guy.

There's a multitude of factors to consider when trying to decide which guy you'd rather have but I'll break down some bullet points....

Offensive team impact... LeBron
Offensive individual impact... Jordan
Scrub team needing to be elevated... LeBron
Great team needing that extra push... Jordan
Closing moments/clutchness/mental toughness... Jordan
Defensive individual impact... Jordan
Defensive team impact... LeBron (close to a wash)
1 on 1 tournament... Jordan (not even close)
5 on 5 tournament teams being equal... most teams... LeBron

People can argue back and forth but there's no clear cut answer... the guy you want/need is going to be entirely dependent upon what your team needs... and in most cases I'm taking LeBron. Basketball is a team sport... it's not boxing.

Jordan was extremely fortunate that Pippen came along... because otherwise... who knows... that's not to say that Jordan was some type of loser without him, it's just that... it's highly improbable that he would be held in such high regard.

Haha, you mean like BJ Armstrong the all star? Luc Longley? Wennington?

As for Pippen, you mean a great player may need another great player (or great players by committee) to win? WHAAAA?

That's like saying Lebron is extremely fortunate that the opportunity to play with DWade came along... because otherwise.....who knows....that's not to say that Lebron was some type of loser without him, it's just that.....it's highly improbable that he would be held in such high regard.

The bottom line is, there really isn't enough of a sample size of Jordan without Pippen to make that statement. He could've left as a free agent to another team and still dominated, the Bulls could've picked another player to fill the Pip role, etc. etc. Just like maybe Lebron goes to the Bulls and they dominate, or some other team. So quite frankly to make a statement that it's "highly improbable that he would've been held in such high regard", when announcers were saying he was one of the greatest of all time BEFORE HE EVEN WON A TITLE, is on the silly side.

[Knoe Itawl]

Never seen a player get so many free passes like Jordan. Jordan couldn't do shit without Pippen, basically Kevin Love at SG. Just racking up the empty stats. At least LeBron could win games and even carried his scrub team to a finals appearance, much more the Jordan could ever say before Pippen.

So let's see if I understand this correctly. A player who wins 6 titles, 5 MVPs, 6FMVPs, highest scoring average of all time, blah blah blah is getting a "free pass" when people don't choose to harp on the fact that he won with a great, but clearly secondary player.

I mean, do you even think before you write garbage or do you just post the first thing that comes into your mind, regardless of how stupid?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan is by far the greatest INDIVIDUAL, able to beat any single guy 1 on 1 perimeter basketball player of all time... this isn't even close. It's not a contest, and there has never been another living being worthy of even entering into the discussion.

That being said... LeBron is a guy that actually elevates the play of his teammates to make them appear to be better players than they actually are, and Jordan was not that type of guy.

There's a multitude of factors to consider when trying to decide which guy you'd rather have but I'll break down some bullet points....

Offensive team impact... LeBron
Offensive individual impact... Jordan
Scrub team needing to be elevated... LeBron
Great team needing that extra push... Jordan
Closing moments/clutchness/mental toughness... Jordan
Defensive individual impact... Jordan
Defensive team impact... LeBron (close to a wash)
1 on 1 tournament... Jordan (not even close)
5 on 5 tournament teams being equal... most teams... LeBron

People can argue back and forth but there's no clear cut answer... the guy you want/need is going to be entirely dependent upon what your team needs... and in most cases I'm taking LeBron. Basketball is a team sport... it's not boxing.

I agree with most of your post, but:


Jordan was extremely fortunate that Pippen came along... because otherwise... who knows... that's not to say that Jordan was some type of loser without him, it's just that... it's highly improbable that he would be held in such high regard.

Lets not pretend he (Lebron) didn't need Wade and Bosh, 2 superstars, to even compete for championships.

[Roundball_Rock]

Which of those players faced a team as good as '85 Milwaukee in the first round (plus MJ was a rookie), and then a top 10 team of ALL TIME in the first round for two consecutive seasons, and then a top 15 team of all time in the second and third rounds for the three seasons after that?

None of them. That is the point: they weren't going 38-44 or 40-42 while putting up 37/5/5 and entering the playoffs as the #8 seed. They all posted winning records, had high seeds and advanced in the playoffs. Jordan is the only exception. Why, if he is the clear GOAT and a level above any other player, a level so high that no one ever could match him in 1,000 years? Again, Wilt gets crucified for posting great stats and losing the the GOAT dynasty--and he was in the conference finals (including as a rookie joining a lousy team) or NBA finals practically every year in his career. Yet MJ goes 40-42, gets swept in the first round while posting 37/5/5 and no one even mentions it? :lol


Never seen a player get so many free passes like Jordan.

Exactly. Why? Name me one other legend who is exempt from scrutiny. As noted earlier, Wilt STILL gets roasted for losing to the GOAT dynasty half a century later!

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Haha, you mean like BJ Armstrong the all star? Luc Longley? Wennington?

As for Pippen, you mean a great player may need another great player (or great players by committee) to win? WHAAAA?

That's like saying Lebron is extremely fortunate that the opportunity to play with DWade came along... because otherwise.....who knows....that's not to say that Lebron was some type of loser without him, it's just that.....it's highly improbable that he would be held in such high regard.

The bottom line is, there really isn't enough of a sample size of Jordan without Pippen to make that statement. He could've left as a free agent to another team and still dominated, the Bulls could've picked another player to fill the Pip role, etc. etc. Just like maybe Lebron goes to the Bulls and they dominate, or some other team. So quite frankly to make a statement that it's "highly improbable that he would've been held in such high regard", when announcers were saying he was one of the greatest of all time BEFORE HE EVEN WON A TITLE, is on the silly side.

Yeah.. Guy talks about basketball being a "team game", and in the same breath, demeans MJ for having GOOD teammates :oldlol:

Can we stay consistent?

[Legends66NBA7]

So, what exactly makes those stats empty in terms of context ?

[Knoe Itawl]

Exactly. Why? Name me one other legend who is exempt from scrutiny. As noted earlier, Wilt STILL gets roasted for losing to the GOAT dynasty half a century later!


You really are a clown. Not because you may have a difference of opinion (though it's clearly set up to troll, as I don't believe you actually believe most of what you type, you just have a set Jordan detracting agenda), but because you pretend to be a Bulls fan, specifically a fan of the Jordan era Bulls, yet you take every opportunity to try to subtract from Jordan's career. Something I've never seen any Bulls fan EVER do.

However, no one said Jordan is exempt from scrutiny. No one said he's perfect, or anything like it. What reasonable people DO say, however, is that his overall body of work is such that attempts by people such as yourself to make arguments that are allegedly "only being made to put perspective on the Jordan career, and offer scrutiny that his blind fans won't and blah blah blah" is clear for what it is - and it's not to brig some kind of balance to discussions on Jordan.

You're not some clever guy that's just shining a light on things Jordan fans won't tell you. Your whole routine is transparent, and anyone with even a whiff of intelligence can see it. Yet you try to come across like this guy who's telling people stuff the Jordan apologists won't. Who's poking holes in the Jordan myth, etc. No, you're just another clown with a gimmick on here.

[BoutPractice]

In 88, Jordan led the Bulls to 50 wins, losing against Pistons that made it all the way to a 7 game Finals... that year Pippen was only the 6th leading scorer on the team (he was, after all, a rookie) and the rest of his supporting cast was far from stellar. For evidence, MJ was the leading shot blocker on that team.

In 89, Jordan led a team that went all the way to a 6 game ECF against the championship Pistons. Pippen was still a sophomore and while much improved from his rookie year, not the real Pippen we have in mind yet.

The myth that Jordan never made it past the first round "without Pippen" has to stop: we're clearly not talking about the same Pippen those two years.

[sportjames23]

In 88, Jordan led the Bulls to 50 wins, losing against Pistons that made it all the way to a 7 game Finals... that year Pippen was only the 6th leading scorer on the team (he was, after all, a rookie) and the rest of his supporting cast was far from stellar. For evidence, MJ was the leading shot blocker on that team.

In 89, Jordan led a team that went all the way to a 6 game ECF against the championship Pistons. Pippen was still a sophomore and while much improved from his rookie year, not the real Pippen we have in mind yet.

The myth that Jordan never made it past the first round "without Pippen" has to stop: we're clearly not talking about the same Pippen those two years.

Bingo.

[Legends66NBA7]

In 88, Jordan led the Bulls to 50 wins, losing against Pistons that made it all the way to a 7 game Finals... that year Pippen was only the 6th leading scorer on the team (he was, after all, a rookie) and the rest of his supporting cast was far from stellar. For evidence, MJ was the leading shot blocker on that team.

In 89, Jordan led a team that went all the way to a 6 game ECF against the championship Pistons. Pippen was still a sophomore and while much improved from his rookie year, not the real Pippen we have in mind yet.

The myth that Jordan never made it past the first round "without Pippen" has to stop: we're clearly not talking about the same Pippen those two years.

To continue on with your point, even the Bad Boy Pistons in their new documentary on Jordan Rules and other videos, this was basically their quote:

"The Jordan Rules just stop Jordan, because nobody else could beat you on that ball club. Scottie Pippen ? We didn't care about Scottie." The second part was in the recent documentary, not sure it was the EXACT line, but that was jist of it.

[bukowski81]

1-9 without pippen in the playoffs:oldlol: :oldlol:

2011 :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[TheMan]

And they are complaining about the east now.
30-52 :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
The East back then was top heavy, Bird Celtics, Bad Boys Pistons, Nique Hawks...today it's the Heat and ...Pacers rofl

[livinglegend]

The East back then was top heavy, Bird Celtics, Bad Boys Pistons, Nique Hawks...today it's the Heat and ...Pacers rofl

stop complaining about it because your boy made it to the playoffs with a 30-52

[livinglegend]

In 88, Jordan led the Bulls to 50 wins, losing against Pistons that made it all the way to a 7 game Finals... that year Pippen was only the 6th leading scorer on the team (he was, after all, a rookie) and the rest of his supporting cast was far from stellar. For evidence, MJ was the leading shot blocker on that team.

In 89, Jordan led a team that went all the way to a 6 game ECF against the championship Pistons. Pippen was still a sophomore and while much improved from his rookie year, not the real Pippen we have in mind yet.

The myth that Jordan never made it past the first round "without Pippen" has to stop: we're clearly not talking about the same Pippen those two years.

Use the same logic for Lebron then. In that case, Lebron didnt need superstars Wade and Bosh to win it all. He needed good 2nd option Wade and role player Bosh to win it all.

Also, Pippen did much better without Jordan when they replaced Jordan with a D-Leaguer.

[Roundball_Rock]

"The Jordan Rules just stop Jordan, because nobody else could beat you on that ball club. Scottie Pippen ? We didn't care about Scottie."

Chuck Daly did...he knew the Pistons' days as the top Eastern team were limited when he saw Pippen because he recognized that Pippen was a superstar-in-waiting. Once Pippen came close to his potential, he knew their days were numbered and that was what happened. This view of Daly was documented in the Jordan hagiography Playing for Keeps. (Jordan also calls Pippen a top 4 player in the NBA that book)

It is true "Pippen was not Pippen" in 1988 and 1989, but Pippen's first start--of his career--was in Game 5 of the first round (which was a best of 5 back then). Pippen responded with something like 27/7/7 and the Bulls won. Had Pippen been riding the bench still, or not been on the team, the Bulls would have continued their trend of losing in the first round for the fourth consecutive year. Pippen in 89' was not all-star Pippen, but he still was a 16 ppg scorer once he became entrenched as a starter so he was much more of a contributor in 1989 than 1988.

No one is saying Pippen led the Bulls to that success, especially earlier in his career. The point people are making is MJ--just like Lebron and everyone else--"needed help." Ironically, Jordan fans make this crystal clear: their argument is Jordan could not contend without a good team. Guys like Lebron, Bird, and Russell to name a few could do so. Even lesser lights like Tim Duncan won with a weak supporting cast in 2003. So why did MJ need to have a strong team, custom-built around him over the course of many years to win? Jordan's rise also coincided with the fall of Detroit, Boston and LA--and was immediately prior to the rise of the Shaq LAL and Duncan Spurs. Jordan had perfect timing in dodging the biggest dynasties of the past three decades (outside, obviously, the current Heat) during his prime. Luck is part of life but Jordan sure had it--and capitalized in a way, Shaq fully did not during his prime.

[TheMan]

Never seen a player get so many free passes like Jordan. Jordan couldn't do shit without Pippen, basically Kevin Love at SG. Just racking up the empty stats. At least LeBron could win games and even carried his scrub team to a finals appearance, much more the Jordan could ever say before Pippen.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/CruxisAurion/timetostopposting.jpg

[livinglegend]

Chuck Daly did...he knew the Pistons' days as the top Eastern team were limited when he saw Pippen because he recognized that Pippen was a superstar-in-waiting. Once Pippen came close to his potential, he knew their days were numbered and that was what happened. This view of Daly was documented in the Jordan hagiography Playing for Keeps. (Jordan also calls Pippen a top 4 player in the NBA that book)

It is true "Pippen was not Pippen" in 1988 and 1989, but Pippen's first start--of his career--was in Game 5 of the first round (which was a best of 5 back then). Pippen responded with something like 27/7/7 and the Bulls won. Had Pippen been riding the bench still, or not been on the team, the Bulls would have continued their trend of losing in the first round for the fourth consecutive year. Pippen in 89' was not all-star Pippen, but he still was a 16 ppg scorer once he became entrenched as a starter so he was much more of a contributor in 1989 than 1988.

No one is saying Pippen led the Bulls to that success, especially earlier in his career. The point people are making is MJ--just like Lebron and everyone else--"needed help." Ironically, Jordan fans make this crystal clear: their argument is Jordan could not contend without a good team. Guys like Lebron, Bird, and Russell to name a few could do so. Even lesser lights like Tim Duncan won with a weak supporting cast in 2003. So why did MJ need to have a strong team, custom-built around him over the course of many years to win? Jordan's rise also coincided with the fall of Detroit, Boston and LA--and was immediately prior to the rise of the Shaq LAL and Duncan Spurs. Jordan had perfect timing in dodging the biggest dynasties of the past three decades (outside, obviously, the current Heat) during his prime. Luck is part of life but Jordan sure had it--and capitalized in a way, Shaq fully did not during his prime.

ETHER:applause: :applause: :applause:

[riseagainst]

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/CruxisAurion/timetostopposting.jpg

:roll:

this meme makes me laugh so hard.

[TheMan]

ETHER:applause: :applause: :applause:
What ether :oldlol:

I disagree with some of that post but he's basically saying great players need legit players around them to win, I mean, DUH...

And it's not "luck" Jordan peaked after Bird, Magic, Pistons were done, HE WAS YOUNGER FFS, that's like saying LeBron is "lucky" he's peaking after KG, Wade (pre collusion), Dirk, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan are all old now :facepalm

[diamenz]

lebron stans are such simpletons. they bring the same tired arguments against mj over and over and get nowhere with them. it's too bad an all time great like lebron has such a shit fanbase.

[riseagainst]

lebron stans are such simpletons. they bring the same tired arguments against mj over and over and get nowhere with them. it's too bad an all time great like lebron has such a shit fanbase.

:applause:

[DonDadda59]

The Bulls went 40-42 that year, a season in which MJ averaged 37 ppg (on 28 FGA and 12 FTA per game) but gets a pass while Wilt gets crucified for losing in the conference finals each year to the Celtics. :oldlol:


Wilt gets crucified because his production plummeted when it mattered most. But we're going to get on Jordan's case for losing to arguably the GOAT/most stacked team ever? Dude couldn't have done more than he did, literally. He averaged 44 PPG including dropping a still record 63 on the Cs. MJ was so sublime, Bird (who at the time was in the convo for GOAT) called him 'God disguised as Michael Jordan'. Jehovah in human form going bananas was only good enough to force OT once against that team. Think about that.

What could he possibly have done to overcome that Boston juggernaut? Get more touches for Gene Banks? Would really love to hear your thoughts on this :lol

[Hey Yo]

Three peat 2x.

6/6 perfection in finals.

Nuff said
Why did he quit both times and not try for the Four peat?

[SuperCereal]

Boiled Down
6>2

[DonDadda59]

Chuck Daly did...he knew the Pistons' days as the top Eastern team were limited when he saw Pippen because he recognized that Pippen was a superstar-in-waiting. Once Pippen came close to his potential, he knew their days were numbered and that was what happened. This view of Daly was documented in the Jordan hagiography Playing for Keeps. (Jordan also calls Pippen a top 4 player in the NBA that book)

It is true "Pippen was not Pippen" in 1988 and 1989, but Pippen's first start--of his career--was in Game 5 of the first round (which was a best of 5 back then). Pippen responded with something like 27/7/7 and the Bulls won. Had Pippen been riding the bench still, or not been on the team, the Bulls would have continued their trend of losing in the first round for the fourth consecutive year. Pippen in 89' was not all-star Pippen, but he still was a 16 ppg scorer once he became entrenched as a starter so he was much more of a contributor in 1989 than 1988.

No one is saying Pippen led the Bulls to that success, especially earlier in his career. The point people are making is MJ--just like Lebron and everyone else--"needed help." Ironically, Jordan fans make this crystal clear: their argument is Jordan could not contend without a good team. Guys like Lebron, Bird, and Russell to name a few could do so. Even lesser lights like Tim Duncan won with a weak supporting cast in 2003. So why did MJ need to have a strong team, custom-built around him over the course of many years to win? Jordan's rise also coincided with the fall of Detroit, Boston and LA--and was immediately prior to the rise of the Shaq LAL and Duncan Spurs. Jordan had perfect timing in dodging the biggest dynasties of the past three decades (outside, obviously, the current Heat) during his prime. Luck is part of life but Jordan sure had it--and capitalized in a way, Shaq fully did not during his prime.

Straight bullshit :oldlol:

Bird and Russell both played on some of the most stacked lineups ever and whenever Bron didn't have the luxury of picking on Gilbert 'Yosemite Sam' Arenas' Wizards and similar weak squads and had to face real competition, he jumped ship to form a super team of his own. Jordan was an integral part of Pippen becoming who he eventually became, but even then he was still a bit of a mental midget and choke artist. If it wasn't for his 'migraines', it's very possible the Bulls would've won 7 titles.

[GimmeThat]

What's interesting is that the first year Jordan won a ring, his PPG went down to 31. As well as his latter 3peat where he averaged just north of 30.

Probably one of the few players who didn't really adjust much of his playing style regardless of who he played with. This really says a lot about Pippen if anything.

[Psileas]

Wilt gets crucified because his production plummeted when it mattered most. But we're going to get on Jordan's case for losing to arguably the GOAT/most stacked team ever? Dude couldn't have done more than he did, literally. He averaged 44 PPG including dropping a still record 63 on the Cs. MJ was so sublime, Bird (who at the time was in the convo for GOAT) called him 'God disguised as Michael Jordan'. Jehovah in human form going bananas was only good enough to force OT once against that team. Think about that.

What could he possibly have done to overcome that Boston juggernaut? Get more touches for Gene Banks? Would really love to hear your thoughts on this :lol

Too bad Jordan's production also plummeted when it mattered the most during the 80's. '86 vs the Celtics was only the exception. In '87, '88, '89, '90, he consistently plummeted against the Celtics and the Pistons, and he also did so when the Knicks were in their prime in '92+'93 (but thankfully, he had the better team around him and the Knicks were an Eastern team, so he would be facing worse defenses during those Finals, padding his numbers "when it mattered the most"). The main difference between Wilt and Jordan is that Wilt spent his whole prime having to face a Dynasty, not only in terms of dominance, but in terms of durability, while Jordan had to face that era's dynasties only in the first half of his prime, since they were in their prime when he was only a rookie. If Jordan had been 5 years older and got drafted by the 1979 Bulls, it would have been a whole different story.

[riseagainst]

Too bad Jordan's production also plummeted when it mattered the most during the 80's. '86 vs the Celtics was only the exception. In '87, '88, '89, '90, he consistently plummeted against the Celtics and the Pistons, and he also did so when the Knicks were in their prime in '92+'93 (but thankfully, he had the better team around him and the Knicks were an Eastern team, so he would be facing worse defenses during those Finals, padding his numbers "when it mattered the most"). The main difference between Wilt and Jordan is that Wilt spent his whole prime having to face a Dynasty, not only in terms of dominance, but in terms of durability, while Jordan had to face that era's dynasties only in the first half of his prime, since they were in their prime when he was only a rookie. If Jordan had been 5 years older and got drafted by the 1979 Bulls, it would have been a whole different story.

:biggums:

regular season:
87: 37-5-5 48%FG 56%TS
88: 35-6-6 54%FG 60%TS
89: 33-8-8 54%FG 61%TS
90: 34-7-6 53%FG 61%TS

playoffs:
87: 36-7-6 42%FG 53%TS
88: 36-7-5 53%FG 60%TS
89: 35-7-8 51%FG 60%TS
90: 37-7-7 51%FG 60%TS

in 87 his FG% dropped alot, but overall efficiency slightly. But he was going against the undisputed GOAT team.

88-90 his overall efficiency stayed the same and his production went up.

:coleman:

[DonDadda59]

Too bad Jordan's production also plummeted when it mattered the most during the 80's. '86 vs the Celtics was only the exception. In '87, '88, '89, '90, he consistently plummeted against the Celtics and the Pistons, and he also did so when the Knicks were in their prime in '92+'93 (but thankfully, he had the better team around him and the Knicks were an Eastern team, so he would be facing worse defenses during those Finals, padding his numbers "when it mattered the most"). The main difference between Wilt and Jordan is that Wilt spent his whole prime having to face a Dynasty, not only in terms of dominance, but in terms of durability, while Jordan had to face that era's dynasties only in the first half of his prime, since they were in their prime when he was only a rookie. If Jordan had been 5 years older and got drafted by the 1979 Bulls, it would have been a whole different story.


Bruh...

Wilt Reg. Season PPG: 30
Wilt Playoffs PPG: 22
Wilt Finals PPG: 18.6
2 rangz, 1 finals MVP

Jordan Reg. Season PPG: 30
Jordan Playoffs PPG: 33.4
Jordan Finals PPG: 33.6
6 rangz, 6 finals MVPs

Stop it, bruh. :rolleyes:

[riseagainst]

Bruh...

Wilt Reg. Season PPG: 30
Wilt Playoffs PPG: 22
Wilt Finals PPG: 18.6
2 rangz, 1 finals MVP

Jordan Reg. Season PPG: 30
Jordan Playoffs PPG: 33.4
Jordan Finals PPG: 33.6
6 rangz, 6 finals MVPs

Stop it, bruh. :rolleyes:

:bowdown:

[TheMan]

Use the same logic for Lebron then. In that case, Lebron didnt need superstars Wade and Bosh to win it all. He needed good 2nd option Wade and role player Bosh to win it all.

Also, Pippen did much better without Jordan when they replaced Jordan with a D-Leaguer.
Wow, didn't know the Bulls won the chip in 94 :applause:

Tell me more about it :coleman:

[Psileas]

Bruh...

Wilt Reg. Season PPG: 30
Wilt Playoffs PPG: 22
Wilt Finals PPG: 18.6
2 rangz, 1 finals MVP

Jordan Reg. Season PPG: 30
Jordan Playoffs PPG: 33.4
Jordan Finals PPG: 33.6
6 rangz, 6 finals MVPs

Stop it, bruh. :rolleyes:

Great, another one without a grasp of stats and history, who'll resort to "lalalala, I'm not hearing you, lalalala!" when his mistakes are pointed out. :rolleyes:
And, how surprising, another one who rounds 22.54 down to 22. :rolleyes:

[TheMan]

Psileas just got HAMMERED :oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

MJ's supporting cast was definitely worse than LeBron's for a number of seasons. That's including a couple years where the Bulls had young Pippen.

Win / Loss record is irrelevant if you're still getting into the playoffs v.s. not getting there at all. It's only relative to that year's competition.

Scottie Pippen wasn't a legit player until 1989.

Hell even in the '89 playoffs, where MJ dragged a team having no business getting as far as they did to the ECF, giving the eventual champions their only losses ... Scottie only put up 14 ppg.

For comparison sake the much maligned 2009 Mo Williams was putting up 16 ppg.

Scottie Pippen was a better basketball player than Mo Williams in his prime by his second season. Scottie had 24/6/5 in the first start of his career....and it was a playoff game.

And I dont believe that anyone who watched the Oakley I did would trade him for anyone Lebron had on the Cavs. Arguably Big Z years earlier. And even then...nah. Oakley was a beast for us. And a perfect 4 to pla ywith Jordan. Great passer. All time elite outlet passes to MJ. Defense. Rebounding almost like Rodman. Dude had 35 rebounds once and 20+ the next night. Who gets 16 offensive rebounds?

The 88 Bulls might win 55 in todays east. John Paxon would take 250 threes. We would need another shooter or two but those Bulls would whore this league.

Imagine MJ with Durant and Harden calls?

I bet Oakley would be tempted to chuck up more threes than id like but id accept it for the 14 rebounds and 60 foot touchdowns to Scottie and Mike.

Not to mention young Grant who while not a real star then...and not one in todays league either...was always a good player. Horace Grant was a solid player early. I remember him well. He went to Clemson and I had family on his nuts. He could play well before anyone knew his name.

That wasnt some awful team. Just in a league with too many stacked teams.

[97 bulls]

Wow. There's so much agenda on both sides that it's hard to know where to begin.

[97 bulls]

Scottie Pippen was a better basketball player than Mo Williams in his prime by his second season. Scottie had 24/6/5 in the first start of his career....and it was a playoff game.

And I dont believe that anyone who watched the Oakley I did would trade him for anyone Lebron had on the Cavs. Arguably Big Z years earlier. And even then...nah. Oakley was a beast for us. And a perfect 4 to pla ywith Jordan. Great passer. All time elite outlet passes to MJ. Defense. Rebounding almost like Rodman. Dude had 35 rebounds once and 20+ the next night. Who gets 16 offensive rebounds?

The 88 Bulls might win 55 in todays east. John Paxon would take 250 threes. We would need another shooter or two but those Bulls would whore this league.

Imagine MJ with Durant and Harden calls?

I bet Oakley would be tempted to chuck up more threes than id like but id accept it for the 14 rebounds and 60 foot touchdowns to Scottie and Mike.

Not to mention young Grant who while not a real star then...and not one in todays league either...was always a good player. Horace Grant was a solid player early. I remember him well. He went to Clemson and I had family on his nuts. He could play well before anyone knew his name.

That wasnt some awful team. Just in a league with too many stacked teams.
The only legit post here.

[Kblaze8855]

Honestly...if you didnt love Charles Oakleys break starting you didnt love 80 basketball:

http://i57.tinypic.com/2czrldx.gif

[sportjames23]

Honestly...if you didnt love Charles Oakleys break starting you didnt love 80 basketball:

http://i57.tinypic.com/2czrldx.gif


LOT of fakkits here don't love 80s basketball, bruh.

[Kblaze8855]

True. But its mostly just not remembering it.

http://i62.tinypic.com/2s0estf.gif

Oakley being the best QB in town was a played out joke in Chicago at one point.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Bruh...

Wilt Reg. Season PPG: 30
Wilt Playoffs PPG: 22
Wilt Finals PPG: 18.6
2 rangz, 1 finals MVP

Jordan Reg. Season PPG: 30
Jordan Playoffs PPG: 33.4
Jordan Finals PPG: 33.6
6 rangz, 6 finals MVPs

Stop it, bruh. :rolleyes:
All that says to me is when the going gets TOUGH ... the tough get going doe, bruh

I think it's no coincidence that the difference in regular season output compared to playoff production really, truly shows the ultimate measure of a player. Whether it decreases (Wilt), stays roughly the same (Kobe), rises (LeBron), or launches to the stratosphere with heightened expectations (Jordan)

That's when you can really tell the real from the fake. The great from the good, the heroes from the LEGENDS.

Kobe
Reg Season PPG: 25.5
Playoff PPG: 25.6
5 rangz, 2x Finals MVPs

LeBron
Reg Season PPG: 27.5
Playoff PPG: 28.2
2 rangz, 2x Finals MVPs

[Kblaze8855]

I wonder at times how much thought people even put in Wilts numbers.

Ignoring for a moment how many of his playoff games come from when he just decided to be a decoy for the good of the team(right decision....won record numbers of games and multiple rings...laughed at on the internet)...

When Wilt...a guy who dropped 100 on the same players in the league in 67...the opposing center from the 100 point game was an all star on the Lakers in 67...

This unstoppable scoring machine decides to take 15 shots in 48 minutes a game in the playoffs.....about 11 shots for a player playing normal star minutes.

Hes taking literally half the shots a superstar normally would...

When you see that...are you actually thinking that the guy who put up 50ppg in the same league cant get shots off anymore?

Or do you make the obvious assumption...that he gave up scoring in favor of team ball?

In 1967...he scored only 21 a game in the playoffs.

So he lowers his career averages.

He also got 29 rebounds and 9 assists a game.

He put up 21/29/9. Had a triple double in half his playoff games. Game one of the finals he has 16 points, 33 rebounds, and 10 assists. He passes and passes and passes and his team drops 140 points. Game 2...10 points, 38 rebounds, and 10 assists. Team has 126. This goes on all series. Meanwhile Barry shoots 43, 28, 48, 41, 37, and 38 shots filling Wilts old role on the team he was traded from.

Wilts team plays....as a team. The Warriors watch Barry shoot.

Wilt gets his first ring.

50 years later....it factors in only as a down scoring year to clown him. One would almost think hed made the wrong decision....by playing good basketball.

He had already lost in the finals in a year he scored 35 a game in the playoffs.

I suspect that 21 felt better. And he got more respect for it.

Exactly as it should be.

[Roundball_Rock]

Boiled Down
6>2

11>6. Russell joined a 0.542 team and won a championship as a rookie; he retired and his team, the defending champs, did not even make the playoffs next year. :lol Russell won a NCAA title with a college that has not been heard of since. Wherever he went, he won championships...that is no coincidence--and he had to consistently face arguably the GOAT at his very position during his career (not Reggie Miller, Craig Ehlo, Dan Majerle and Jeff Hornacek).

I love how MJ fans trot out FMVP's. The award did not exist during Russell's time. If it did he would have had 11 rings, 9-10 FMVP's. This is the problem with those who claim MJ is light years ahead of any other player: they can never identify a consistent criteria to justify that claim. The fact is MJ is one of 4-5 GOAT candidates along with KAJ, Wilt, Russell and probably Lebron in a few years.

How about KAJ? 6 MVP's, 6 rings and the most dominant player in high school, the most dominant player in college and the most dominant player in the NBA. The guy averaged something like 30/16/5 during his prime and was a MVP candidate even at age 38.

Can anyone surpass the combination of individual achievement, impact on teams, longevity, and dominance of Kareem? I can see some players better than him in particular areas. You can argue Jordan in longevity (Malone too, but we are talking about top-tier greats here and Malone is in the next group. Jordan also took five seasons off to rest); Shaq, Wilt, Bird, or Jordan in dominance/peak play; Shaq, Russell, Bird, or Duncan (winning a ring with "scrubs" in 03') in impact on teams; Wilt and Jordan in individual achievement. Can anyone match the combination Kareem has in these areas, though?

Individual achievement: 6 MVP's (1st all-time), top 5 in MVP voting 15x, all-time leading scorer, third all-time in rebounds and blocks, led the league in scoring 3x, led the league in rebounding 2x, led the league in blocks 4x, led the league in field goal percentage 1x, 15x all-NBA (10x first team), 11x all-Defense (5x first team), 19x all-star

Impact on teams: Took a 27 win expansion team to 56 wins and the conference finals as rookie, brought the Bucks their only championship in his second season. Whenever he was hurt during his prime his teams collapsed (i.e. going 3-14 without him when they were 35-30 with him dragging "scrubs").

Longevity: He was top-five in MVP voting at age 38. Can anyone else say this?

Dominance: He averaged 30/16/5 on 54% shooting during his prime.

Winning: 6 championships, 10 NBA finals, 14 conference finals, 18 winning seasons in 20 years.

Just look at Kareem's win totals: 56, 66, 63, 60, 58, 38*, 40, 53, 45, 47, 60, 54, 57, 58, 54, 62, 62, 65, 62, 57

*They were 3-14 without him, 35-30 with him. That is the difference between 44 wins or 14 wins.

If you factor in college (Kareem: 88-2 in college, 3 for 3 in winning championships, beat the #1 ranked team in the nation with a team of freshman, dominated so much they banned dunking, clearly the best college player of his time and probably all-time, etc.) and high school (79-2, 3 straight championships) it is no contest. Only Russell can match Kareem's amazing ability to win wherever he went, but Russell cannot match Kareem's individual brilliance

[97 bulls]

11>6. Russell joined a 0.542 team and won a championship as a rookie; he retired and his team, the defending champs, did not even make the playoffs next year. :lol Russell won a NCAA title with a college that has not been heard of since. Wherever he went, he won championships...that is no coincidence--and he had to consistently face arguably the GOAT at his very position during his career (not Reggie Miller, Craig Ehlo, Dan Majerle and Jeff Hornacek).

I love how MJ fans trot out FMVP's. The award did not exist during Russell's time. If it did he would have had 11 rings, 9-10 FMVP's. This is the problem with those who claim MJ is light years ahead of any other player: they can never identify a consistent criteria to justify that claim. The fact is MJ is one of 4-5 GOAT candidates along with KAJ, Wilt, Russell and probably Lebron in a few years.

How about KAJ? 6 MVP's, 6 rings and the most dominant player in high school, the most dominant player in college and the most dominant player in the NBA. The guy averaged something like 30/15/5 during his prime and was a MVP candidate even at age 38.
Id like to ask, in Jordans career, how many times did a team he played for loose to a team they were favored to win?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Id like to ask, in Jordans career, how many times did a team he played for loose to a team they were favored to win?

http://s15.postimg.org/yhc9m0957/Game_Blouses.jpg

[97 bulls]

I wonder at times how much thought people even put in Wilts numbers.

Ignoring for a moment how many of his playoff games come from when he just decided to be a decoy for the good of the team(right decision....won record numbers of games and multiple rings...laughed at on the internet)...

When Wilt...a guy who dropped 100 on the same players in the league in 67...the opposing center from the 100 point game was an all star on the Lakers in 67...

This unstoppable scoring machine decides to take 15 shots in 48 minutes a game in the playoffs.....about 11 shots for a player playing normal star minutes.

Hes taking literally half the shots a superstar normally would...

When you see that...are you actually thinking that the guy who put up 50ppg in the same league cant get shots off anymore?

Or do you make the obvious assumption...that he gave up scoring in favor of team ball?

In 1967...he scored only 21 a game in the playoffs.

So he lowers his career averages.

He also got 29 rebounds and 9 assists a game.

He put up 21/29/9. Had a triple double in half his playoff games. Game one of the finals he has 16 points, 33 rebounds, and 10 assists. He passes and passes and passes and his team drops 140 points. Game 2...10 points, 38 rebounds, and 10 assists. Team has 126. This goes on all series. Meanwhile Barry shoots 43, 28, 48, 41, 37, and 38 shots filling Wilts old role on the team he was traded from.

Wilts team plays....as a team. The Warriors watch Barry shoot.

Wilt gets his first ring.

50 years later....it factors in only as a down scoring year to clown him. One would almost think hed made the wrong decision....by playing good basketball.

He had already lost in the finals in a year he scored 35 a game in the playoffs.

I suspect that 21 felt better. And he got more respect for it.

Exactly as it should be.
Again, another great post. The fact is that basketball is and always has been a team game. Fans claim to acknowledge this but constantly ignore it.

[Psileas]

When Wilt...a guy who dropped 100 on the same players in the league in 67...the opposing center from the 100 point game was an all star on the Lakers in 67...

This is the kind of stuff I remind to people who think that Wilt's scoring dipped because of the league acquiring better quality. He did not care any longer to score more than 15-20 points on the very same players he had routinely been giving 30-50 points just a few years before.


11>6.

You don't even need to go any further. This little math over here follows perfectly the DonDadda (and his peers') line of "thinking". It's the argument to end all arguments. That easy. :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kblaze,

You don't think post season Wilt couldn't find a better balance between playing un-selfish team ball, and knowing he still needs to be a high volume shooter / scorer?

To me that tells me maybe he didn't have a great inherent feel for the eb and flow for a game. What it means to be a leader. When to take over when your guys are struggling, and went to let them flourish.

Such a massive drop off in production shouldn't be excused.

[Roundball_Rock]

You don't even need to go any further. This little math over here follows perfectly the DonDadda (and his peers') line of "thinking". It's the argument to end all arguments. That easy. :oldlol:

:lol MJ fans:

6>2 (Wilt, Lebron).
6>3 (Bird).
6>4 (Shaq).
6>5 (Magic).
6 does not=6 (KAJ).

Yet they never bring up rings when Russell is mentioned, even though he has twice as many. :roll:

[97 bulls]

Bird and Russell both played on some of the most stacked lineups ever and whenever Bron didn't have the luxury of picking on Gilbert 'Yosemite Sam' Arenas' Wizards and similar weak squads and had to face real competition, he jumped ship to form a super team of his own. Jordan was an integral part of Pippen becoming who he eventually became, but even then he was still a bit of a mental midget and choke artist. If it wasn't for his 'migraines', it's very possible the Bulls would've won 7 titles.

I take exception to this line of reasoning. First, a migrane is a brain inury not a headache. Second, Pippen still played albeit bad. And third, Jordan played horribly himself in a few of those losses statistically. Out of all the starters, he played the worse in game 2 scoring only 20 pts on 31% shooting. So you could say he cost the Bulls that series as much as Pippen.

[Kblaze8855]

Kblaze,

You don't think post season Wilt couldn't find a better balance between playing un-selfish team ball, and knowing he still needs to be a high volume shooter / scorer?

To me that tells me maybe he didn't have a great inherent feel for the eb and flow for a game. What it means to be a leader. When to take over when your guys are struggling, and went to let them flourish.

Such a massive drop off in production shouldn't be excused.


There is nothing to excuse. You look into it one bit and it becomes obvious Wilts numbers are one of two things....

What he decided to make them....and what his coach decides his role is.

Wilt does not look to score....and fail.

Wilt is not asked to be a scorer....and not score.

When asked to score like nobody ever had or has since he did it without breaking a sweat.

When asked to stop and just rebound and pass....he made his team the best rebounding team in the league and led the league in assists to go with it.

When asked to stop assist whoring and just be a decoy, shut down the lane, grab every rebound, master outlet passing, and only score on putbacks and gimmes....his team won 33 straight, 69 games, and the ring while russell himself said Wilt played his role...better than he did.

Wilt is perhaps the most coachable player if all time if only for his complete mastery of ANYTHING hes told to do without a speck of pushback. Wilt didnt sulk when asked to just rebound. He took pride in it.

He didnt complain about minutes or being considered selfish when he was told to score 50. He just did it.

When the best scorer ever was turned into a pass first decoy he just led the league in assists and took more pride in it than any of his scoring stats.

You dont like Wilts numbers talk to the coach....because he did exactly what he was asked all his life.

Acting like his dip in production is a lack of skill or desire just doesnt show an understanding of how far ahead of everyone he is.

If you asked Wilt to score 35 a game on the Lakers he could have done it.

You think he couldnt drop 50 in 68 on a guy he dropped 70 on a few years earlier...when he was worse?

He had 2 60 point games in a week on the Lakers just because some writer said he couldnt do it anymore....61 on Oscars Bucks then 66 on the Suns.

Just because.

Wilt could have done whatever numbers he chose his entire career.

Why should I care about his PPG?

His PPG was exactly what he decided it was going to be.

Im gonna clown a potential 40ppg scorer for being unselfish when he had good teammates?

Wilts total dedication to team ball should be an example to every scorer who ever was or will be.

It doesnt matter what you score if your team isnt better for it.

He went to 6 finals and won multiple rings. I have too much respect for how much it takes to win once to clown someone for winning twice.

People have been dropping 30 on their way out in the second round for 70 years. Wilt did it himself. Must not have left a good taste in his mouth. Im not mad over 19 points, more rebounds than anyone else, 7 blocks, 16 fast breaks started, and setting the best picks this side of Wes Unseld...

Might as well get mad at ball movement, pick and roll defense, and blowjobs.

He played the right way.

38ppg and being hated by your teammates might impress the internet in 50 years....but that isnt the goal is it?

[knicksman]

the best comparison for jordan vs lebron is miller/allen vs robertson/iverson. When you look at stats alone, nobody in their right mind would chose miller/allen over robertson. But career wise miller/allen over robertson/iverson anyday. :lol thats how empty lebron stats are

[Real Men Wear Green]

If you can't respect the career accomplishments of MJ, James, Wilt, Bryant, etc you're just another trolling dumbass. I think that if I ever decide to stop posting it will be because one day I just got tired of reading stupid posts by ignorant children. It is impossible to think one player is better than another without trashing the other's career with an ass-dumb comment like, "the guy with 5 MVPs and 6 rings is empty stats." You should have your fingers cut off. Or at least lose access to the keyboard. Just mouse and monitor for you.

[knicksman]

so theres an idiot lebron stan arguing about russell being the GOAT for his 11 rings. following that logic the more lebron and wilt shouldnt be in the same level as jordan. Coz the more you sacrifice stats, the more your team wins. Thats how russell, magic, jordan won while its the reason why wilt, robertson and eventually lebron, if not for cheating, are losers. :lol

[OhNoTimNoSho]

Can people just accept that Jordan was dominant but also had a good team?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Can people just accept that Jordan was dominant but also had a good team?
No one ever wins a ring without a great team. Unfortunately rational thought is under attack from a wave of trolls that argue "_____" isn't as good as "___" because "____" won with a stacked team.

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ's team was stacked from '96 - '98, when he was in his mid 30s.

Before that?

LMAO @ the early 90's Bulls being stacked relative to competition.

[Trollsmasher]

It's not like they needed to be stacked considering their competition

1991 Bulls

39-43 Knicks
44-38 Phili 76ers
50-32 Detroit Pistons

Easiest road to the Finals in the history

[Deuce Bigalow]

SWEPT! you tard

[DonDadda59]

It's not like they needed to be stacked considering their competition

1991 Bulls

39-43 Knicks
44-38 Phili 76ers
50-32 Detroit Pistons

Easiest road to the Finals in the history

Not sure if serious :coleman:

Heat just last year:

Milwaukee Butts (38-44)
Chicago Bulls (45-37, w/o their best player, Jimmy Butler their leading scorer)
Indiana Pacers (49-33)

And just barely, by the skin of Jesus' teeth, got by a Spurs team led by the Ghost of Tim Duncan :oldlol: