Elite point guards are useless when it comes to winning.....

[9erempiree]

I think we had this discussion in the past where elite point guards really don't mean much for a team and CP3's name was the main topic of conversation and many others out there such as Rose and the Rondos of this world.

This series was proof. When your best player is a PG, don't expect too much.

[Ancient Legend]

I think we had this discussion in the past where elite point guards really don't mean much for a team and CP3's name was the main topic of conversation and many others out there such as Rose and the Rondos of this world.

This series was proof. When your best player is a PG, don't expect too much.

I agree somewhat.

Tony Parker doe...

[215Philly]

:biggums: Westbrook doe

[9erempiree]

I agree somewhat.

Tony Parker doe...

Parker is great but I don't think he is the best player on the team. I think Duncan is especially in certain situations.

Don't get me wrong, Parker is the man but he has stability with Duncan.

[dannysc305]

Point-Forward LeBron James doe.

/thread.

[PyrrhusX]

GOATbrook will prove you wrong this year when he explodes to win the FMVP.

[9erempiree]

:biggums: Westbrook doe

Yes but he has Durant.

I think Point Guard may be the most useless position unless your name is Magic Johnson -or- John Stockton.

[SwishSquared]

I agree somewhat.

Tony Parker doe...
Would have had a much different career had he not had a GOAT coach, GOAT PF, one of the best foreign players ever, and a very competent front office assembling great casts of role players.

I love stellar PG play, but OP has a great point. It's a historical anomaly to win rings when the PG is the best player on the team.

[AnaheimLakers24]

:biggums: Westbrook doe
oh i must've forgotten when he won :rolleyes:

teams need bitches like kerr fisher or chalmers

i laugh whenever fgts say its the pg era. ya so? they aint winning jack

[Mr. Jabbar]

agreed. also:


inb4 some1 says billups :facepalm

[T_L_P]

You're right. Even Isiah wasn't clearly the best player on his team.

You should change the title to small point guards. Magic wasn't useless.

[Jacks3]

Yeah, you ain't winning shit if a small guard is your best player.

[9erempiree]

After the Kobe era, I would like to see a more emphasis on bigs.

I was watching the NBA Combine, yea, I was pretty bored and the bigs don't look that promising.

They can sure as hell jump but lack some fundamentals for a big.

[houston]

this is true indeed

[215Philly]

oh i must've forgotten when he won :rolleyes:

teams need bitches like kerr fisher or chalmers

i laugh whenever fgts say its the pg era. ya so? they aint winning jack
Ask the Pacers how not having a PG feels like

[El Gato Negro]

Ya better to have leet big men than guards.

[215Philly]

Ya better to have leet big men than guards.
How many teams with elite big men still in the playoffs?

[imdaman99]

Kobe was the Lakers point guard, cuz we know it wasn't Fish creating for others :coleman:

[scott0326]

Derek Fisher and Mario Chalmers are the exceptions

[El Gato Negro]

How many teams with elite big men still in the playoffs?
All of them? when i say big men im talking sf/pf/c

[TheMagicMan]

Unless they're on a stacked team. History has proven over and over again that the only time a PG has led his team to a championship, is when his team was stacked. I don't want my best player to be 6'0. No sir.

[CHi1PriDe]

I think we had this discussion in the past where elite point guards really don't mean much for a team and CP3's name was the main topic of conversation and many others out there such as Rose and the Rondos of this world.

This series was proof. When your best player is a PG, don't expect too much.

2008 champ vs the Lakers.

[TheMagicMan]

How many teams with elite big men still in the playoffs?

Stephen Curry's at home because DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffin dominated his team.

[Mass Debator]

Point guards can't be the best player on the team because of their size. They can be the leader and the most respected, but not a game changer when the games are close because they can't play defense on taller 2s and 3s. I think 2s and 4s are the most important though. Put CP3 with Kobe doe...

[fragokota]

GOATbrook will prove you wrong this year when he explodes to win the FMVP.

:lol :lol :lol

This will never happen.

[9erempiree]

Another example was last night.

My brother and I almost fell out of our seats when Mike Breen said that CP3 will be covering Durant in crunch time. :oldlol:

You got a midget on Durant?:confusedshrug:

[hahaitme]

Wasn't CP3's fault. KD just went beastmode

flat out put the team on his back and carried them to a WCF

hell you could've put KD on the bucks and they would probably get to the WCF

[Angel Face]

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o110/revmyspace/freegraphics/sports/Isiah_Thomas_Icon.jpg

and how could you forget Magic Johnson...

http://simhoop.com/images/blog/054.jpg

[All Net]

Well actually recently unless you have a guy called Lebron james nobody else has won.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Wasn't CP3's fault. KD just went beastmode

flat out put the team on his back and carried them to a WCF

hell you could've put KD on the bucks and they would probably get to the WCF
Now that would be amazing.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Wasn't CP3's fault. KD just went beastmode

flat out put the team on his back and carried them to a WCF

hell you could've put KD on the bucks and they would probably get to the WCF
what a tard:coleman:

[New World Order]

It is hard for point guards to be the best player on their teams and win the title. Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Walter "Clyde" Frazier did it as the man (or at worst, tied for first place in a co-leader sort of way). The interesting thing is besides Magic, Zeke and Clyde are listed below other point guards who never won rings when you look at forums' all-time PG lists. This thread is interesting because some tend to judge point guards more based on regular season stats, rather than who is good enough to win you playoffs series/titles.

[fpliii]

Agree for the most part. Elite PGs are too ball-dominant, and tend to break/stop your offensive scheme. Most also can't guard any position.

In general, if there are two players on a similar level, I'll take the one who isn't a PG to start a team.

[Rake2204]

I think it depends what one means by "elite". If the word is in reference only to point guards who may average around 20 points per game (and thus are one of their team's top scorers), I think there's some merit to the idea that that could be a problem (if they're the number 1 scoring option due to lack of surrounding talent).

On the flip side, if being "elite" as a point guard means doing point guard things on an extremely high level - defending well, controlling tempo, delivering the ball in a manner that raises the level of those around you - I think that's invaluable. Those guys can affect entire teams and turn mediocre squads into ones that compete.

There's a lot to be said about a point guard who's able to coax all of his teammates to correctly play as hard as they can, fill their lanes, and get to their spots, all because they know that point guard is going to provide the reward for their efforts. And again, at that point, when each player is being put in position to maximize their own custom skill sets, things get real.

One of the first big examples that comes to mind is a prime Jason Kidd. If I wanted to give my team the best chance to win in 2001, Kidd would have been one of the very first players to come to mind, perhaps over elite high volume scorers like, say, Tracy McGrady (or maybe even Kobe Bryant). It's tough to say definitively though. Sometimes, an offensive player's individual ability to fill up that bucket (like say, again, Kobe Bryant) may be so great that it could eclipse a point guard's cumulative effect.

Either way, I respectfully disagree with the general notion that all elite point guards are useless when it comes to winning.

[ILLsmak]

I think we had this discussion in the past where elite point guards really don't mean much for a team and CP3's name was the main topic of conversation and many others out there such as Rose and the Rondos of this world.

This series was proof. When your best player is a PG, don't expect too much.

Your best player can be a PG, but when your go-to scorer is a PG that's when it becomes a problem. Your best shot-creator...

If your PG has to make a play on every play, that's nogood.

PGs are very underrated, though. A good PG doesn't need to get 20-10. He just has to get guys the ball where they want it. Assuming he can do that, make every shot as easy as possible, not turn the ball over... I'm saying he's elite. Even if he averages 8 and 4.

But an elite PG needs an elite scorer. Nobody on the clips is an elite scorer... UNFORT. We got Blake from 17... o blake ur j is so money!! it's like yea but why is this your method of attack.

Edit: I like Rake. I need to get a 'wat rake sed' gif. Cuz I apparently say the same thing.

-Smak

[DukeDelonte13]

Your best player can be a PG, but when your go-to scorer is a PG that's when it becomes a problem. Your best shot-creator...

If your PG has to make a play on every play, that's nogood.

PGs are very underrated, though. A good PG doesn't need to get 20-10. He just has to get guys the ball where they want it. Assuming he can do that, make every shot as easy as possible, not turn the ball over... I'm saying he's elite. Even if he averages 8 and 4.

But an elite PG needs an elite scorer. Nobody on the clips is an elite scorer... UNFORT. We got Blake from 17... o blake ur j is so money!! it's like yea but why is this your method of attack.

Edit: I like Rake. I need to get a 'wat rake sed' gif. Cuz I apparently say the same thing.

-Smak

ding ding ding.

that's been the cavalier's problem throughout the Kyrie Irving era.

Instead of the PG setting up a play and getting an easy shot, he feels the need to isolate and get it himself by taking a much more difficult shot. That's why IMO is was a great decision to start playing mr. pouty at the 2 spot for stretches this season. (another fun fact; Kryie only started playing PG at duke)


I agree entirely on what we as fans perceive as an elite pg, and what said elite PG needs to do to win games. Having a scoring PG kills your ball movement and makes your team's offense very predictable. Having an elite pass-first floor general PG makes a team's offense way better than the individual talent you have on the roster.

[Rocketswin2013]

Peak Chris Paul is not losing this series. :banghead: :( So unfortunate. Let's say Paul didn't have that MCL tear, I doubt he'd be at 09 level but he would have more athleticism than this.

[riseagainst]

pass first point guards are useless in this era.

[StrongLurk]

Yes but he has Durant.

I think Point Guard may be the most useless position unless your name is Magic Johnson -or- John Stockton.

Uhhh and those players didn't have great teammates? You know, that Jabbar fellow and a certain, jacked mailman?

[Pointguard]

The point guards primary responsibilities on offense are to
1)set up and initiate the offense and reset it when need be.
2)Distribute the rock, sense who is hot and control time.
3)Control the game as much as possible - tempo.
4)Get players on the same page
5)Communicate to players about floor distribution, and defensive lapse on the other team.

Functionality changes a bit these days.

Kobe and D Rose function very similar outside of the triangle. The common perception is that the point guard is the smallest player on the team - Chalmers is not close to being a point guard on offense. Chalmers is the height PG, Lebron functions as the true PG. One could argue due to usage rates and how the offense plays out that Kobe, Lebron and Wade in his earlier title run were point guards in function.

Kobe even played the point when playing next to Nash last year and did a good job, but that challenges people's perception too hard so I will leave that alone.

[jzek]

I agree somewhat.

Tony Parker doe...

Duncan
Ginobili

It's not like those two guys are scrubs and Parker's carrying them, you know.

[Noyze]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321211

Not Since Magic & Isiah have we seen a PG be the best player and his team win it all. Those teams were stacked, so it makes it even tougher to put multiple pieces around a PG in this salary cap era if they commands a huge contract. So much is said of this era in which the Point Guards dominate, but can they win?

20 & 10 a night didn't work for CP3 in NO, wont work for him in LA unless BG elevates to a first option.

Chauncey Billups was just a solid player when Detroit won, became an allstar after. Same goes for Rondo

J Kidd tried, went to the finals twice with New Jersey...never had a chance. Won in Dallas once he wasn't a first option anymore.

Tony Parker won a few times, but the O went through Duncan.

Will Steph Curry do it? Irving, DRose? Nope, they are too good. You'd have to find someone better then them and at the same time ask them to play sidekick. Guys who have a legitimate shot in the future are Lillard & Westbrook, that's it. You gotta play that John Stockton roll, pick your spots and run the offense. If you gotta carry the squad, you're gonna have a bad time :pimp:

[JUDGE WITNESS]

rajon rondo... that team almost upset the heat with rondo ballin out of his mind

[beastee]

This is Fact. This is why Iverson could never win that Ship.

Derrick Rose couldnt get past Lebron for the very same reason.

If your best player isnt 6'4" or better, you probably won't win ever.

Poor CP3...

[scott0326]

Mario Chalmers is far from elite.......and Derek Fisher is debatable......Lets take a look at the past champions from 10 years...

2003 - San Antonio Spurs
2004 - Detroit Pistons
2005 - San Antonio Spurs
2006 - Miami Heat
2007 - San Antonio Spurs
2008 - Boston Celtics :rockon:
2009 - LA Lakers
2010 - LA Lakers
2011 - Dallas Mavericks
2012 - Miami Heat
2013 - Miami Heat

Only team that won with a elite PG was the Spurs. Billups and Fisher are debatable, Jason Williams was far from his prime when they won, Rondo was not in his prime yet when they won, Jason Kidd again was in the last stretch of his career, and Chalmers is not elite...
Wait, so you are arguing that Chalmers and Fisher aren't elite?

[kennethgriffin]

what OP shoulda said is nobody wins with a true pg. You need a scoring combo pg or sg playmaker/point forward

Kobe was the pg for the lakers 5 world titles. He just wasnt listed there cause of his height and scoring. Same with lebron. Same with wade. Same with pippen... every great team that has a crap pg thats just a spot up shooter or role player usually is gettig set up by someone else. So in reality you do need a pg. But it helps if theyre taller and can take over the scoring load. Small pgs are limited. Like if lowry was 6 foot 6 or 6 foot 7. Maybe he finishes that drive.