34 years ago today, Kareem Abdul Jabbar was robbed of Finals MVP

[TheMagicMan]

Kareem's 1980 NBA Finals stats: 33 pts, 13 rebounds, and 3 assists on 54% FG. If it wasn't for KAJ scoring 40 points on a bum ankle, and hitting clutch shot after clutch shot in the 4th quarter of Game 5, the Lakers would've never been in position to win it all in Game 6. Magic's Game 6 performance was legendary, no doubt, but Kareem was the rightful MVP of that series.

[KobesFinger]

It doesn't matter to us, Lakers won

[NumberSix]

FMVP is an overrated award anyway.

[Psileas]

Doesn't matter, he's just another short, white center that faced Wilt.

[Natureland]

His Game 1 of that series in terms of controlling the offense was incredible to watch. And that Game 5 was GOAT-level work. :bowdown:

[Real14]

Kobe Bryant was robbed by a crook named Shaq for his FMVP in two thousand and two.

[magic chiongson]

It doesn't matter to us, Lakers won

:applause::applause::applause:

[SpecialQue]

I agree that it rightfully belonged to Kareem, but still, holy shit...a rookie played out of position, put up great stats, and won the game.

Such a great first year for the greatest Laker dynasty.

[SHAQisGOAT]

True

[AnaheimLakers24]

if your going to give any laker flak it should be that lazy fgt of shaq or choker wilt. everyone else seems like they gave it their all. i doubt you where born anyways

[ThePhantomCreep]

Magic Johnson was robbed in 1988 (21/6/13 67.6 TS%:eek: :eek: ), so it all evens out.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Magic Johnson was robbed in 1988 (21/6/13 67.6 TS%:eek: :eek: ), so it all evens out.

Also true, but it doesn't "evens out" for Kareem though.

Oh and you can also say Bird was "robbed" in 1981.

[MiseryCityTexas]

It doesn't matter to us, Lakers won


Wish I could give positive rep on this quote. **** an Mvp. Winning is all that matters. On that note, Jamal Wilkes had an MVP type performance also in that Magic starting at center game, and people don't even acknowledge that man's existence.

[wakencdukest]

It doesn't matter to us, Lakers won



:applause:

[ThePhantomCreep]

Crazy how early game 6 of the Finals was played in those days.

We have to wait three days for the conference finals to start!

[LAZERUSS]

Doesn't matter, he's just another short, white center that faced Wilt.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

:cheers:

[Pointguard]

The Clippers were beating OKC pretty bad there in game 5... If you don't finish the job you can lose it all. Kareem might have been in Magic's way for all we know. Kareem did have a better series. But Magic totally changed Kareem's team and definitely made a losing team change its fortunes.

[LAZERUSS]

The Clippers were beating OKC pretty bad there in game 5... If you don't finish the job you can lose it all. Kareem might have been in Magic's way for all we know. Kareem did have a better series. But Magic totally changed Kareem's team and definitely made a losing team change its fortunes.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

At those that somehow believe that Magic didn't deserve the FMVP.

Here were his six game averages:

21.5 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 8.7 apg (remember, Nixon was often their PG that season), .573 FG%, .875 FT%, and a .642 TS%.

Furthermore, we simply don't know what numbers Magic would have put up had Kareem not played at all. We do KNOW that in the one game in which KAJ didn't play, Magic scored 42 points, grabbed 15 rebounds (which was FIVE more than anyone else on the floor in that game), 7 assists, and on 14-23 FG/FGA and 14-14 FT FTA shooting.

I have long maintained that had Kareem played in game six, even with a below average game, that he likely would have won the FMVP. But you simply can't ignore the fact that, one, he missed the game entirely; and two, Magic just completely DOMINATED the clinching game six (and on the road no less), withOUT Kareem.

IMO, Magic DESERVED the FMVP in '80. And, he was ROBBED of it in '88.

He should have had FOUR FMVPs in his career, and not three.

[TheMagicMan]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

At those that somehow believe that Magic didn't deserve the FMVP.

Here were his six game averages:

21.5 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 8.7 apg (remember, Nixon was often their PG that season), .573 FG%, .875 FT%, and a .642 TS%.

Furthermore, we simply don't know what numbers Magic would have put up had Kareem not played at all. We do KNOW that in the one game in which KAJ didn't play, Magic scored 42 points, grabbed 15 rebounds (which was FIVE more than anyone else on the floor in that game), 7 assists, and on 14-23 FG/FGA and 14-14 FT FTA shooting.

I have long maintained that had Kareem played in game six, even with a below average game, that he likely would have won the FMVP. But you simply can't ignore the fact that, one, he missed the game entirely; and two, Magic just completely DOMINATED the clinching game six (and on the road no less), withOUT Kareem.

IMO, Magic DESERVED the FMVP in '80. And, he was ROBBED of it in '88.

He should have had FOUR FMVPs in his career, and not three.

:facepalm

Jamal Wilkes had 37 and 10 in that Game 6 and Kareem was the best player game 1-5. That's a fact.

[SHAQisGOAT]

The Clippers were beating OKC pretty bad there in game 5... If you don't finish the job you can lose it all. Kareem might have been in Magic's way for all we know. Kareem did have a better series. But Magic totally changed Kareem's team and definitely made a losing team change its fortunes.

Losing team? 1979 Lakers went 45-35 and got eliminated, in 5 games, by the eventual champions, in the WCSF... I wouldn't call that a losing team, given their roster. And btw, Kareem was putting up 29/13/5/1/4 on .636 TS% throughout the post-season, which is completely ridiculous. Lakers had no chemistry though, little hustle and rebounding also, too many black-holes on offense, and Jabbar was playing great defense but the only legit help he had in that department was from Wilkes, as Dantley couldn't care less, Nixon gambled too much, Hudson was old and never good at it... Not even a player like Kareem could win with teammates like that, and he was simply terrific during those years.

In 1980 they added Cooper (injured in 1979, as a rookie) who was already playing good basketball, Jim Chones who provided something in different areas, Spencer Haywood who was still valuable, also Mark Landsberger who was big on the boards and hustled a lot.. Getting rid of defensive liabilities, offensive black holes, "chemistry-breakers" and/or players that didn't understand the team's concept, along the way.. It wasn't "only" Magic.

Kareem in Magic's way? :oldlol: Jabbar was definitely the better player at that time, no question about it, their leader and captain, main-man, alpha, clear-cut best player, you name it, even Magic was saying that same stuff during years after.. Shit, he was still the best in the league, let alone the Lakers only lol, dude was still playing like a beast, getting MVP, would've been top3 in DPOY voting at least if the award was already given...

Regular season:

Kareem - 24.8 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.0 spg, 3.4 bpg, 60.4% FG, 76.5% FT, 38.3 mpg, 82 games (60W-22L), MVP, all-defensive 1st...

Magic - 18.0 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 7.3 apg, 2.4 spg, 0.5 bpg, 53.0% FG, 81.0% FT, 36.3 mpg, 77 games (56W-21L), no MVP votes, no all-nba team, not even ROY

Post season:

Kareem - 31.9 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 3.1 apg, 1.1 spg, 3.9 bpg, 57.2% FG, 79.0% FT, 41.2 mpg

Magic - 18.3 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 9.4 apg, 3.1 spg, 0.4 bpg, 51.8% FG, 80.2% FT, 41.1 mpg

You can check all the advanced stats too, Kareem is above in pretty much all of them, oh and he was putting up 33/14/3/5 on 55/81, in the Finals.. Always stepping up, just absurd still at that point, all year long :bowdown:

And you're here talking about Kareem being in Magic's way and something along those lines :lol Gimme a ****ing break :facepalm :rolleyes: Lakers probably wouldn't even make it to the Finals without Jabbar, let alone win it all. Kareem was the "real" FMVP, they wouldn't be in a position to a win if it wasn't for him, his impact over 5 Finals games was greater than Magic's over 6. And no doubt that Magic had a legendary game6 but can't forget about Wilkes also stepping up big time and putting up 37 pts (career-high) and 10 rebounds, plus Chones playing great D on Dawkins and finishing with 11/10, Cooper scoring 16 while starting, Landsberger with 10 boards, Nixon on a game high 9 assists... It wasn't like Kareem not playing and Magic doing everything on his own, carrying them on their back to the win. I'm sure Kareem would've went buckwild in game7 to finish the job, had there been one, just like he was doing previously, also.
Quit the nonsense.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, in Magic's entire career, he had a higher winning percentage, .743, withOUT Kareem, than with Kareem (.740.) And in their ten seasons on the same team, Kareem went 61-40 without Magic (.604), while Magic went 24-8 without Kareem (.750.)

[LAZERUSS]

:facepalm

Jamal Wilkes had 37 and 10 in that Game 6 and Kareem was the best player game 1-5. That's a fact.

BTW, why in the hell are you posting what is basically an anti-Magic post...while using the name of TheMagicMan?

Are you a complete idiot?

[SHAQisGOAT]

BTW, in Magic's entire career, he had a higher winning percentage, .743, withOUT Kareem, than with Kareem (.740.) And in their ten seasons on the same team, Kareem went 61-40 without Magic (.604), while Magic went 24-8 without Kareem (.750.)

That's all pretty subjective.. They weren't playing with the same teammates and they weren't playing during the same time-span... I can also stand here and say that Kareem won without/before Magic (champion and FMVP) while being more than proven without him, and Magic never won without Kareem, or after Jabbar retired.....
That's a way bigger sample-size for Kareem too, during the years on the same team, and can't forget that Kareem was playing til he was like 40 while Magic was in his prime.

I will say, though, that Kareem had a better peak/prime as an overall player and has a better case (for being higher) on the all-time list.

[Dr.J4ever]

That's all pretty subjective.. They weren't playing with the same teammates and they weren't playing during the same time-span... I can also stand here and say that Kareem won without/before Magic (champion and FMVP) while being more than proven without him, and Magic never won without Kareem, or after Jabbar retired.....
That's a way bigger sample-size for Kareem too, during the years on the same team, and can't forget that Kareem was playing til he was like 40 while Magic was in his prime.

I will say, though, that Kareem had a better peak/prime as an overall player and has a better case (for being higher) on the all-time list.

I agree 100%. Forget Magic's numbers. KAJ played in an era where the center position was the most important in basketball. The team with the best center(LA) or best front court(Boston) often won. It was the era of the big man, and everyone knew it.

KAJ dominated and every time the Lakers needed a bucket, he delivered.

[LAZERUSS]

That's all pretty subjective.. They weren't playing with the same teammates and they weren't playing during the same time-span... I can also stand here and say that Kareem won without/before Magic (champion and FMVP) while being more than proven without him, and Magic never won without Kareem, or after Jabbar retired.....
That's a way bigger sample-size for Kareem too, during the years on the same team, and can't forget that Kareem was playing til he was like 40 while Magic was in his prime.

I will say, though, that Kareem had a better peak/prime as an overall player and has a better case (for being higher) on the all-time list.

I don't agree at all. First of all, I could make a case that Magic won a ring withOUT Kareem in his rookie season. He certainly carried his team to a convincing series clinching win (on the road) with one of the greatest Finals games in NBA history, withOUT Kareem.

Secondly, Magic was THE man in BOTH the '87 and '88 Finals (and actually, in '82 as well.) Hell, his Lakers won a title in '88 DESPITE Kareem (who was only LA's 5th best player that season...and who was simply AWFUL in the Finals ...and even more horrific in game seven.)

And I have long maintained that LA would have won a title without Kareem in '87, as well. Thompson and Green could have easily filled his minutes, and that Laker team was just miles better than the rest of the NBA that year.

Perhaps Kareem's '71 and '72 seasons were greater, but Magic's overall IMPACT throughout his ENTIRE career was better than Kareem's throughout his. Keep in mind that the Lakers IMPROVED after Kareem finally retired, and in fact, their 63-19 record in '90 was their second best record in the Magic era. And then he carried a rapidly declining, and injury-riddled Laker team to a 58-24 record, and yet another trip to the Finals, in his last full-time season.

Furthermore, after Magic retired, the Lakers immediately plummeted back to their "pre-Magic" years, with back-to-back records of 43-39 and 39-43.

There is no question in my mind that it was MAGIC who was leading the Lakers to titles in the 80's. Kareem was just lucky enough to have ridden his coat-tails for that decade. Without MAGIC, KAJ would have retired as a chronic under-achiever.

[Dr.J4ever]

I don't agree at all. First of all, I could make a case that Magic won a ring withOUT Kareem in his rookie season. He certainly carried his team to a convincing series clinching win (on the road) with one of the greatest Finals games in NBA history, withOUT Kareem.

Secondly, Magic was THE man in BOTH the '87 and '88 Finals (and actually, in '82 as well.) Hell, his Lakers won a title in '88 DESPITE Kareem (who was only LA's 5th best player that season...and who was simply AWFUL in the Finals ...and even more horrific in game seven.)

And I have long maintained that LA would have won a title without Kareem in '87, as well. Thompson and Green could have easily filled his minutes, and that Laker team was just miles better than the rest of the NBA that year.

Perhaps Kareem's '71 and '72 seasons were greater, but Magic's overall IMPACT throughout his ENTIRE career was better than Kareem's throughout his. Keep in mind that the Lakers IMPROVED after Kareem finally retired, and in fact, their 63-19 record in '90 was their second best record in the Magic era. And then he carried a rapidly declining, and injury-riddled Laker team to a 58-24 record, and yet another trip to the Finals, in his last full-time season.

Furthermore, after Magic retired, the Lakers immediately plummeted back to their "pre-Magic" years, with back-to-back records of 43-39 and 39-43.

There is no question in my mind that it was MAGIC who was leading the Lakers to titles in the 80's. Kareem was just lucky enough to have ridden his coat-tails for that decade. Without MAGIC, KAJ would have retired as a chronic under-achiever.
Lazerus, you're being unreasonable..Game 6 was more of a fluke than anything else. The Sixers were surprised by Magic playing center, and couldn't adjust in time. Had the Lakers played without KAJ for the entire series, Sixers would have won it easily. There is no question about this.

[Dr.J4ever]

I don't agree at all. First of all, I could make a case that Magic won a ring withOUT Kareem in his rookie season. He certainly carried his team to a convincing series clinching win (on the road) with one of the greatest Finals games in NBA history, withOUT Kareem.

Secondly, Magic was THE man in BOTH the '87 and '88 Finals (and actually, in '82 as well.) Hell, his Lakers won a title in '88 DESPITE Kareem (who was only LA's 5th best player that season...and who was simply AWFUL in the Finals ...and even more horrific in game seven.)

And I have long maintained that LA would have won a title without Kareem in '87, as well. Thompson and Green could have easily filled his minutes, and that Laker team was just miles better than the rest of the NBA that year.

Perhaps Kareem's '71 and '72 seasons were greater, but Magic's overall IMPACT throughout his ENTIRE career was better than Kareem's throughout his. Keep in mind that the Lakers IMPROVED after Kareem finally retired, and in fact, their 63-19 record in '90 was their second best record in the Magic era. And then he carried a rapidly declining, and injury-riddled Laker team to a 58-24 record, and yet another trip to the Finals, in his last full-time season.

Furthermore, after Magic retired, the Lakers immediately plummeted back to their "pre-Magic" years, with back-to-back records of 43-39 and 39-43.

There is no question in my mind that it was MAGIC who was leading the Lakers to titles in the 80's. Kareem was just lucky enough to have ridden his coat-tails for that decade. Without MAGIC, KAJ would have retired as a chronic under-achiever.
You have to face the fact that Magic NEVER won anything without Kareem. Zilch.

Yes, Magic was the Man in the latter half of the 80s for the Lakers, but in the 1st half, it was KAJ all the way.

[TheMagicMan]

Losing team? 1979 Lakers went 45-35 and got eliminated, in 5 games, by the eventual champions, in the WCSF... I wouldn't call that a losing team, given their roster. And btw, Kareem was putting up 29/13/5/1/4 on .636 TS% throughout the post-season, which is completely ridiculous. Lakers had no chemistry though, little hustle and rebounding also, too many black-holes on offense, and Jabbar was playing great defense but the only legit help he had in that department was from Wilkes, as Dantley couldn't care less, Nixon gambled too much, Hudson was old and never good at it... Not even a player like Kareem could win with teammates like that, and he was simply terrific during those years.

In 1980 they added Cooper (injured in 1979, as a rookie) who was already playing good basketball, Jim Chones who provided something in different areas, Spencer Haywood who was still valuable, also Mark Landsberger who was big on the boards and hustled a lot.. Getting rid of defensive liabilities, offensive black holes, "chemistry-breakers" and/or players that didn't understand the team's concept, along the way.. It wasn't "only" Magic.

Kareem in Magic's way? :oldlol: Jabbar was definitely the better player at that time, no question about it, their leader and captain, main-man, alpha, clear-cut best player, you name it, even Magic was saying that same stuff during years after.. Shit, he was still the best in the league, let alone the Lakers only lol, dude was still playing like a beast, getting MVP, would've been top3 in DPOY voting at least if the award was already given...

Regular season:

Kareem - 24.8 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.0 spg, 3.4 bpg, 60.4% FG, 76.5% FT, 38.3 mpg, 82 games (60W-22L), MVP, all-defensive 1st...

Magic - 18.0 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 7.3 apg, 2.4 spg, 0.5 bpg, 53.0% FG, 81.0% FT, 36.3 mpg, 77 games (56W-21L), no MVP votes, no all-nba team, not even ROY

Post season:

Kareem - 31.9 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 3.1 apg, 1.1 spg, 3.9 bpg, 57.2% FG, 79.0% FT, 41.2 mpg

Magic - 18.3 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 9.4 apg, 3.1 spg, 0.4 bpg, 51.8% FG, 80.2% FT, 41.1 mpg

You can check all the advanced stats too, Kareem is above in pretty much all of them, oh and he was putting up 33/14/3/5 on 55/81, in the Finals.. Always stepping up, just absurd still at that point, all year long :bowdown:

And you're here talking about Kareem being in Magic's way and something along those lines :lol Gimme a ****ing break :facepalm :rolleyes: Lakers probably wouldn't even make it to the Finals without Jabbar, let alone win it all. Kareem was the "real" FMVP, they wouldn't be in a position to a win if it wasn't for him, his impact over 5 Finals games was greater than Magic's over 6. And no doubt that Magic had a legendary game6 but can't forget about Wilkes also stepping up big time and putting up 37 pts (career-high) and 10 rebounds, plus Chones playing great D on Dawkins and finishing with 11/10, Cooper scoring 16 while starting, Landsberger with 10 boards, Nixon on a game high 9 assists... It wasn't like Kareem not playing and Magic doing everything on his own, carrying them on their back to the win. I'm sure Kareem would've went buckwild in game7 to finish the job, had there been one, just like he was doing previously, also.
Quit the nonsense.





Excellent post :applause:

[TheMagicMan]

I don't agree at all. First of all, I could make a case that Magic won a ring withOUT Kareem in his rookie season. He certainly carried his team to a convincing series clinching win (on the road) with one of the greatest Finals games in NBA history, withOUT Kareem.

Secondly, Magic was THE man in BOTH the '87 and '88 Finals (and actually, in '82 as well.) Hell, his Lakers won a title in '88 DESPITE Kareem (who was only LA's 5th best player that season...and who was simply AWFUL in the Finals ...and even more horrific in game seven.)

And I have long maintained that LA would have won a title without Kareem in '87, as well. Thompson and Green could have easily filled his minutes, and that Laker team was just miles better than the rest of the NBA that year.

Perhaps Kareem's '71 and '72 seasons were greater, but Magic's overall IMPACT throughout his ENTIRE career was better than Kareem's throughout his. Keep in mind that the Lakers IMPROVED after Kareem finally retired, and in fact, their 63-19 record in '90 was their second best record in the Magic era. And then he carried a rapidly declining, and injury-riddled Laker team to a 58-24 record, and yet another trip to the Finals, in his last full-time season.

Furthermore, after Magic retired, the Lakers immediately plummeted back to their "pre-Magic" years, with back-to-back records of 43-39 and 39-43.

There is no question in my mind that it was MAGIC who was leading the Lakers to titles in the 80's. Kareem was just lucky enough to have ridden his coat-tails for that decade. Without MAGIC, KAJ would have retired as a chronic under-achiever.

A Wilt stan disparaging Kareem, what else is new :rolleyes:

[Pointguard]

Losing team? 1979 Lakers went 45-35 and got eliminated, in 5 games, by the eventual champions, in the WCSF... I wouldn't call that a losing team, given their roster.
He was Lakerland five years and Rick Barry had won it all with less than Kareem had. Magic came and changed the Lakers ways. Its not a debate.



And btw, Kareem was putting up 29/13/5/1/4 on .636 TS% throughout the post-season, which is completely ridiculous. Lakers had no chemistry though, little hustle and rebounding also, too many black-holes on offense, and Jabbar was playing great defense but the only legit help he had in that department was from Wilkes, as Dantley couldn't care less, Nixon gambled too much, Hudson was old and never good at it... Not even a player like Kareem could win with teammates like that, and he was simply terrific during those years.

Rick Barry won it all with far less during that time. Gus Williams, a point guard in a Center era, won it all as well and most here have no idea who he was. They carried their teams better than Kareem did any of his teams in the 70's. Kareem was a better player than them but what they did was far more impressive than what he was able to do in the 70's. And during those last 5 years (of the 70's), good teams lacked continuity, there were no dynasties and it was as wide open as its every been to win a title. The last 7 years of the decade had no top 7 Goats playing great. No way does Magic come out of the 70's with one ring in 10 tries. Magic played in the greatest era and had five. That tells you something.



In 1980 they added Cooper (injured in 1979, as a rookie) who was already playing good basketball, Jim Chones who provided something in different areas, Spencer Haywood who was still valuable, also Mark Landsberger who was big on the boards and hustled a lot.. Getting rid of defensive liabilities, offensive black holes, "chemistry-breakers" and/or players that didn't understand the team's concept, along the way.. It wasn't "only" Magic.

Chones and Haywood were past their prime and not changing the fortunes of any teams and exited LA soon after. Landsberger hustled a bit for like two years in his career.


Kareem in Magic's way? :oldlol: Jabbar was definitely the better player at that time, no question about it, their leader and captain, main-man, alpha, clear-cut best player, you name it, even Magic was saying that same stuff during years after.. Shit, he was still the best in the league, let alone the Lakers only lol, dude was still playing like a beast, getting MVP, would've been top3 in DPOY voting at least if the award was already given...

Magic was an unknown and obviously was trying to fit in on the team. He totally reinvigorated Kareem who wasn't playing inspired the previous two years.


Regular season:

Kareem - 24.8 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.0 spg, 3.4 bpg, 60.4% FG, 76.5% FT, 38.3 mpg, 82 games (60W-22L), MVP, all-defensive 1st...

Magic - 18.0 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 7.3 apg, 2.4 spg, 0.5 bpg, 53.0% FG, 81.0% FT, 36.3 mpg, 77 games (56W-21L), no MVP votes, no all-nba team, not even ROY

Post season:

Kareem - 31.9 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 3.1 apg, 1.1 spg, 3.9 bpg, 57.2% FG, 79.0% FT, 41.2 mpg

Magic - 18.3 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 9.4 apg, 3.1 spg, 0.4 bpg, 51.8% FG, 80.2% FT, 41.1 mpg

Kareem never had more influence on winning in his life. Kareem needed Magic.

In 10 years you get a great feel for a player, especially after they did 4 years of college. Magic, in his rookie year, came in and changed everything for Kareem. There is no other narrative to go by. Magic had waaay more influence on teammates and winning. When Kareem came into the league, he was energetic, inspired and hungry. He moved quickly and hustled and rocked 30/16 for three years straight. He was the young player without a rival near their prime. The next ten years were supposed to be his, without comp. Once Chamberlain left, the competition of the league and Kareem's play dipped significantly, '76 Kareem was challenged and did go off once again. But

But he was never a guy you could count on to carry his team or necessarily expect a deep run. Other guys were doing this and it was the best five years for a surprise team to go deep.

[eliteballer]

Kareem's 1980 NBA Finals stats: 33 pts, 13 rebounds, and 3 assists on 54% FG. If it wasn't for KAJ scoring 40 points on a bum ankle, and hitting clutch shot after clutch shot in the 4th quarter of Game 5, the Lakers would've never been in position to win it all in Game 6. Magic's Game 6 performance was legendary, no doubt, but Kareem was the rightful MVP of that series.

Magic's stats for the series:

21.5 pts, 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl, 57 FG%, 88 FT%, including Game 6 where Kareem didn't even play.

Or did your ignorant self not look that up?

[LAZERUSS]

In terms of pure winning percentage, Magic has the highest W-L percentage in NBA history at .740. And when he didn't play with Kareem, over the rest of his career (including the seasons in which they played together) it was even higher, at .743.

Magic...the greatest "winner" in NBA history.

[dunksby]

In terms of pure winning percentage, Magic has the highest W-L percentage in NBA history at .740. And when he didn't play with Kareem, over the rest of his career (including the seasons in which they played together) it was even higher, at .743.

Magic...the greatest "winner" in NBA history.
Cry a little bit more j, Kareem = G.O.A.T

[LAZERUSS]

Kareem's 1980 NBA Finals stats: 33 pts, 13 rebounds, and 3 assists on 54% FG. If it wasn't for KAJ scoring 40 points on a bum ankle, and hitting clutch shot after clutch shot in the 4th quarter of Game 5, the Lakers would've never been in position to win it all in Game 6. Magic's Game 6 performance was legendary, no doubt, but Kareem was the rightful MVP of that series.

Magic's averages withOUT Kareem in the lineup in that series...

42.0 ppg, 15.0 rpg, 7.0 apg, .609 FG%, 1.000 FT%, .700 TS%.

[navy]

Magic's averages withOUT Kareem in the lineup in that series...

42.0 ppg, 15.0 rpg, 7.0 apg, .609 FG%, 1.000 FT%, .700 TS%.
:biggums:

[secund2nun]

Also 4 and 5 years ago Gasol was robbed of 2 FMVPs.

[dankok8]

It's a well known fact Kareem was robbed of the 1980 Finals MVP. And anyone who thinks Magic was anywhere near as good as Kareem THAT YEAR is off his rocker.

Anyways here is the evidence that another poster provided that just about proves that Kareem was robbed:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301909

[SHAQisGOAT]

It's a well known fact Kareem was robbed of the 1980 Finals MVP. And anyone who thinks Magic was anywhere near as good as Kareem THAT YEAR is off his rocker.

Anyways here is the evidence that another poster provided that just about proves that Kareem was robbed:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301909

:applause:

Kareem during those Finals:

Game 1 (33/13/4/5) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic85K_iu6Vs

Game 2 (38 pts, 15 rbs, 5 blks) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1kgHXG_Ot8

Game 3 (33/12/3/3) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgH2U-zJe40

Game 5 (40 points) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMIC4zKK_nE

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Somewhat takes away from Kareem's legacy that he didn't got that FMVP, like Bird in 1981, and you can also say Hayes in 1978 or Frazier in 1973.....

[Dr.J4ever]

:applause:

Kareem during those Finals:

Game 1 (33/13/4/5) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic85K_iu6Vs

Game 2 (38 pts, 15 rbs, 5 blks) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1kgHXG_Ot8

Game 3 (33/12/3/3) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgH2U-zJe40

Game 5 (40 points) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMIC4zKK_nE

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Somewhat takes away from Kareem's legacy that he didn't got that FMVP, like Bird in 1981, and you can also say Hayes in 1978 or Frazier in 1973.....



I remember the mentality around the Sixers at the time. We were never worried about Magic. Heck, Cheeks guarded him one on one, and pretty much got it done for the most part. It was Kareem we were worried about.

The solution was Moses Malone. Once Kareem was neutralized, nothing Magic could do to reverse things.

[LAZERUSS]

I remember the mentality around the Sixers at the time. We were never worried about Magic. Heck, Cheeks guarded him one on one, and pretty much got it done for the most part. It was Kareem we were worried about.

The solution was Moses Malone. Once Kareem was neutralized, nothing Magic could do to reverse things.

Magic won a DESERVED FMVP in '80 against Philly, and then won yet another FMVP against them in '82 (and with Kareem only being LA's second best scorer...and to be honest, McAdoo did as much as Kareem, but in far fewer minutes.)

As for Moses...yes, Magic played poorly in the '83 Finals, but the bigger blame lies with Kareem who was just shelled the entire series by Moses. Oh, and Worthy missed the entire series, as well.

As for the '88 Finals...you tell me?

Worthy: 22.0 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 4.4 apg, .492 FG%, .735 FT%
Magic: 21.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 13.0 apg, .550 FG%, .866 FT%

Now, those that argue that Worthy had a great game seven, (36 points, 16 rebounds, 10 assists, 15-22 FG/FGA), and use it against Magic's game six of the '80 Finals, need to remember one very important point: Kareem did NOT play in that game, while Magic put up a 19 point, 5 rebound, 14 assist, 6-9 FG/FGA, 7-8 FT/FTA game seven. His game seven performance wasn't as great as Worthy's, but it was still outstanding. Meanwhile, Kareem didn't produce ANYTHING in that game six of the '80 Finals.

Oh, and as a side-note to those that claim that Magic didn't win a ring without Kareem. Here were KAJ's numbers in the '88 Finals: 13.1 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 1.0 apg, .414 FG%, .714 FT%. And how about Kareem's game seven in that series? 4 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists, 2-7 FG/FGA, 0-0 FT/FTA, 3 TOs, and 5 PFs. I would argue that Magic won that ring DESPITE Kareem's HORRIFIC play (and an even worse game seven...arguably the worst game seven by a GOAT in NBA history.)

[SHAQisGOAT]

Magic won a DESERVED FMVP in '80 against Philly, and then won yet another FMVP against them in '82 (and with Kareem only being LA's second best scorer...and to be honest, McAdoo did as much as Kareem, but in far fewer minutes.)

As for Moses...yes, Magic played poorly in the '83 Finals, but the bigger blame lies with Kareem who was just shelled the entire series by Moses. Oh, and Worthy missed the entire series, as well.

As for the '88 Finals...you tell me?

Worthy: 22.0 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 4.4 apg, .492 FG%, .735 FT%
Magic: 21.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 13.0 apg, .550 FG%, .866 FT%

Now, those that argue that Worthy had a great game seven, (36 points, 16 rebounds, 10 assists, 15-22 FG/FGA), and use it against Magic's game six of the '80 Finals, need to remember one very important point: Kareem did NOT play in that game, while Magic put up a 19 point, 5 rebound, 14 assist, 6-9 FG/FGA, 7-8 FT/FTA game seven. His game seven performance wasn't as great as Worthy's, but it was still outstanding. Meanwhile, Kareem didn't produce ANYTHING in that game six of the '80 Finals.

Oh, and as a side-note to those that claim that Magic didn't win a ring without Kareem. Here were KAJ's numbers in the '88 Finals: 13.1 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 1.0 apg, .414 FG%, .714 FT%. And how about Kareem's game seven in that series? 4 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists, 2-7 FG/FGA, 0-0 FT/FTA, 3 TOs, and 5 PFs. I would argue that Magic won that ring DESPITE Kareem's HORRIFIC play (and an even worse game seven...arguably the worst game seven by a GOAT in NBA history.)

How about the 1985 Finals, no mention of that? Kareem had one of the GOAT Finals at age 38, that's right :bowdown: If it wasn't for him (and Bird injured), the outcome would've most likely been the same as in 1984.

Yea I agree that Magic deserved the 1988 FMVP over Worthy, but he got Kareem's FMVP in 1980, so it's Kareem that ends up "screwed". And it's not just the stats also, like you always use as the end to it all, pretty suspect from a dude who claims to been watching since the 60s :confusedshrug:

You're seriously trashing Kareem for his 1988 Finals? :rolleyes: :biggums: Dude was 41 for ****s sake... Wilt was sitting in his couch since he was 36 or so, Kareem was still winning FMVP almost in his 40s...
Wilt's 1973 Finals, almost 37 years old: 11.6/18.6/3.8 on 52.4/36.8; 4-1 lost
Kareem's 1985 Finals, at 38 years old: 25.7/9.0/5.2 on 60.4/76.9; 4-2 win; FMVP
Kareem still had a really good Finals, winning a ring, at 40 years old.
And the fact is that Magic never won again after Kareem retired, Jabbar won before Magic and was more than proven, see it how you want it but it is what it is, just like you talking about W-L%'s.

[TheMagicMan]

How about the 1985 Finals, no mention of that? Kareem had one of the GOAT Finals at age 38, that's right :bowdown: If it wasn't for him (and Bird injured), the outcome would've most likely been the same as in 1984.

Yea I agree that Magic deserved the 1988 FMVP over Worthy, but he got Kareem's FMVP in 1980, so it's Kareem that ends up "screwed". And it's not just the stats also, like you always use as the end to it all, pretty suspect from a dude who claims to been watching since the 60s :confusedshrug:

You're seriously trashing Kareem for his 1988 Finals? :rolleyes: :biggums: Dude was 41 for ****s sake... Wilt was sitting in his couch since he was 36 or so, Kareem was still winning FMVP almost in his 40s...
Wilt's 1973 Finals, almost 37 years old: 11.6/18.6/3.8 on 52.4/36.8; 4-1 lost
Kareem's 1985 Finals, at 38 years old: 25.7/9.0/5.2 on 60.4/76.9; 4-2 win; FMVP
Kareem still had a really good Finals, winning a ring, at 40 years old.
And the fact is that Magic never won again after Kareem retired, Jabbar won before Magic and was more than proven, see it how you want it but it is what it is, just like you talking about W-L%'s.

ShaqIsGoat with another ether of Jlauber :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[ThePhantomCreep]

Also 4 and 5 years ago Gasol was robbed of 2 FMVPs.

Silly LeBron c0ckgobbler

[ThePhantomCreep]

Kareem was utterly dominant, but it can't be stressed enough that he missed the clinching game. Magic played in every game and delivered series numbers most players would kill to have. This isn't Cedric Maxwell we're talking about here.

[LAZERUSS]

How about the 1985 Finals, no mention of that? Kareem had one of the GOAT Finals at age 38, that's right :bowdown: If it wasn't for him (and Bird injured), the outcome would've most likely been the same as in 1984.

Yea I agree that Magic deserved the 1988 FMVP over Worthy, but he got Kareem's FMVP in 1980, so it's Kareem that ends up "screwed". And it's not just the stats also, like you always use as the end to it all, pretty suspect from a dude who claims to been watching since the 60s :confusedshrug:

You're seriously trashing Kareem for his 1988 Finals? :rolleyes: :biggums: Dude was 41 for ****s sake... Wilt was sitting in his couch since he was 36 or so, Kareem was still winning FMVP almost in his 40s...
Wilt's 1973 Finals, almost 37 years old: 11.6/18.6/3.8 on 52.4/36.8; 4-1 lost
Kareem's 1985 Finals, at 38 years old: 25.7/9.0/5.2 on 60.4/76.9; 4-2 win; FMVP
Kareem still had a really good Finals, winning a ring, at 40 years old.
And the fact is that Magic never won again after Kareem retired, Jabbar won before Magic and was more than proven, see it how you want it but it is what it is, just like you talking about W-L%'s.

Kareem was brilliant in the '85 Finals. I didn't say otherwise did I? Having said that, though, Magic was the Lakers BEST player in the '85 post-season (and easily in the regular season.)

As for a 41 year old year Kareem...I don't care if he was 41 or 21. He was AWFUL. And it was certainly no shock that after that Kareem retired, the Lakers became noticeably BETTER. They went from 57-25 team to a 63-19 team. And a year later, Magic took an injury-riddled roster to yet another Finals. Furthermore, had Magic not been injured in the '89 Finals (Kareem's last season, and in which he contributed absolutely nothing), LA might have won that series. As it was, they lost four close games. And keep in mind that Byron Scott, their 20 ppg scorer, also missed that Finals.

And please, don't compare a 41 year Kareem with a 36 year old Wilt. In Wilt's LAST season, he came in 4th in the MVP balloting, was voted First Team All Defense (over a PEAK Kareem BTW), led the league in rebounding (Kareem was 4th), set an NBA record for FG% of .727 that will never be broken; led his team to a 60-22 record; averaged 22.5 rpg in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg per team (and BTW, the next highest rpg post-season since...KAJ's 17.3 rpg in '77), carried LA past a Warrior team that shocked Kareem's heavily-favored Bucks in the first round; and was arguably the Lakers's best player in the Finals. Oh, and BTW, in Wilt's very LAST GAME... 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Are you honestly going to claim that Wilt was the same shell of a center that a 41 year old Kareem was??????

And one more time...the Lakers didn't win shit, even with the best rosters in the league, until MAGIC arrived. They continued to average 60 wins a season AFTER Kareem retired (including another Finals), and when Magic retired, they plummeted back to the Kareem-led era, with records of 43-39 and 39-43.

CLEARLY it was MAGIC who was THE Laker leading LA to all those Finals and titles. Kareem rode his coat-tails, and without Magic, he likely would have retired in the mid-80's, broke, and considered a huge under-achiever.

[mr4speed]

Kareem was brilliant in the '85 Finals. I didn't say otherwise did I? Having said that, though, Magic was the Lakers BEST player in the '85 post-season (and easily in the regular season.)

As for a 41 year old year Kareem...I don't care if he was 41 or 21. He was AWFUL. And it was certainly no shock that after that Kareem retired, the Lakers became noticeably BETTER. They went from 57-25 team to a 63-19 team. And a year later, Magic took an injury-riddled roster to yet another Finals. Furthermore, had Magic not been injured in the '89 Finals (Kareem's last season, and in which he contributed absolutely nothing), LA might have won that series. As it was, they lost four close games. And keep in mind that Byron Scott, their 20 ppg scorer, also missed that Finals.

And please, don't compare a 41 year Kareem with a 36 year old Wilt. In Wilt's LAST season, he came in 4th in the MVP balloting, was voted First Team All Defense (over a PEAK Kareem BTW), led the league in rebounding (Kareem was 4th), set an NBA record for FG% of .727 that will never be broken; led his team to a 60-22 record; averaged 22.5 rpg in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg per team (and BTW, the next highest rpg post-season since...KAJ's 17.3 rpg in '77), carried LA past a Warrior team that shocked Kareem's heavily-favored Bucks in the first round; and was arguably the Lakers's best player in the Finals. Oh, and BTW, in Wilt's very LAST GAME... 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Are you honestly going to claim that Wilt was the same shell of a center that a 41 year old Kareem was??????

And one more time...the Lakers didn't win shit, even with the best rosters in the league, until MAGIC arrived. They continued to average 60 wins a season AFTER Kareem retired (including another Finals), and when Magic retired, they plummeted back to the Kareem-led era, with records of 43-39 and 39-43.

CLEARLY it was MAGIC who was THE Laker leading LA to all those Finals and titles. Kareem rode his coat-tails, and without Magic, he likely would have retired in the mid-80's, broke, and considered a huge under-achiever.

Have to disagree with Magic being the leader to ALL those finals. The vote in 80 for FMVP AFTER game 6 had Kareem as the winner and Bill Livingston spilled his guts and the true story came out on what happened on pgs 140 - 141 in "Kareem" 9 years later to clear his conscience. Because Kareem was absent, CBS did not want to present to an empty chair and pressure was applied for the voters to change their votes so that Magic would win. Magic was amazing in game 6 but he also set an NBA finals record that still stands = 30 turnovers in that series. Kareem was better throughout the series. Also the Laker plummet when Magic retired is due to more than just missing Magic. Vlade Divac missed 45 more games than the previous season and then Worthy was lost for the season in game #54 (knee surgery). The "Magic Effect" was to be a study of how a great player like Magic influenced his team, but the study was thrown out as invalid because of these 2 reasons. It was thought that with such a similar roster as the previous year, it would be a good case study. And Magic may have the highest win % when looking at the playoffs but you have to also consider how weak the western conference was! Dave Heeren's "Basketball Abstract" pages 49-50 shows the East (all teams included) dominated the West every single year for all 10 years of the 80"s. Sorry, but Magic's win % is inflated because of these weaker teams. When compared to having to play against eastern teams, Magic's win % falls down.

[TheMagicMan]

Have to disagree with Magic being the leader to ALL those finals. The vote in 80 for FMVP AFTER game 6 had Kareem as the winner and Bill Livingston spilled his guts and the true story came out on what happened on pgs 140 - 141 in "Kareem" 9 years later to clear his conscience. Because Kareem was absent, CBS did not want to present to an empty chair and pressure was applied for the voters to change their votes so that Magic would win. Magic was amazing in game 6 but he also set an NBA finals record that still stands = 30 turnovers in that series. Kareem was better throughout the series. Also the Laker plummet when Magic retired is due to more than just missing Magic. Vlade Divac missed 45 more games than the previous season and then Worthy was lost for the season in game #54 (knee surgery). The "Magic Effect" was to be a study of how a great player like Magic influenced his team, but the study was thrown out as invalid because of these 2 reasons. It was thought that with such a similar roster as the previous year, it would be a good case study. And Magic may have the highest win % when looking at the playoffs but you have to also consider how weak the western conference was! Dave Heeren's "Basketball Abstract" pages 49-50 shows the East (all teams included) dominated the West every single year for all 10 years of the 80"s. Sorry, but Magic's win % is inflated because of these weaker teams. When compared to having to play against eastern teams, Magic's win % falls down.

Don't bother with Lazeruss. The only reason he props up Magic is so he could put down Kareem with it.

[LAZERUSS]

Have to disagree with Magic being the leader to ALL those finals. The vote in 80 for FMVP AFTER game 6 had Kareem as the winner and Bill Livingston spilled his guts and the true story came out on what happened on pgs 140 - 141 in "Kareem" 9 years later to clear his conscience. Because Kareem was absent, CBS did not want to present to an empty chair and pressure was applied for the voters to change their votes so that Magic would win. Magic was amazing in game 6 but he also set an NBA finals record that still stands = 30 turnovers in that series. Kareem was better throughout the series. Also the Laker plummet when Magic retired is due to more than just missing Magic. Vlade Divac missed 45 more games than the previous season and then Worthy was lost for the season in game #54 (knee surgery). The "Magic Effect" was to be a study of how a great player like Magic influenced his team, but the study was thrown out as invalid because of these 2 reasons. It was thought that with such a similar roster as the previous year, it would be a good case study. And Magic may have the highest win % when looking at the playoffs but you have to also consider how weak the western conference was! Dave Heeren's "Basketball Abstract" pages 49-50 shows the East (all teams included) dominated the West every single year for all 10 years of the 80"s. Sorry, but Magic's win % is inflated because of these weaker teams. When compared to having to play against eastern teams, Magic's win % falls down.

I really respect your knowledge, and your research, and likely we will just have to agree to disagree here...but

In the 92-93 season, Divac and Worthy each played all 82 games. The result? A 39-43 record.

As for the "weaker" East...

Magic's Lakers went 2-1 against the 76ers in the 80's, 2-1 against the Celtics (and it should have been 3-0), and 1-1 against the Pistons (but, both Magic and Scott missed the majority of their '89 H2H Finals.) Incidently, Magic missed most of the last half of the '81 season. I am not blaming the injury, or rustiness soley for this, but his Lakers were stunned by the Rockets 2-1, in the first round of the '81 playoffs. Given the fact that Boston had to overcome a 3-1 series deficit with the Sixers (and barely winning all three), and that the Lakers easily handled the Sixers in the '80 and '82 Finals, I suspect that a healthy Magic would have carried the Lakers to another title in '81.

And again, Magic went 24-8 without Kareem while the two were on the same team (including 1-0 in the post-season.) KAJ went 61-40 without Magic (and 0-2 in the post-season.)

As for the '80 FMVP, I really see nothing there. In REALITY, Magic played the ENTIRE series, and absolutely exploded when it counted most, and with Kareem watching the game from his couch. We will never know just how much more dominant Magic could have been in the '80 Finals, had he been pushed to lead that team the entire series. It was obvious the Sixers had no answer for him. And as great as Magic was in the '80 Finals, he was considerably more brilliant when he was asked to score more, in his '87 Finals.

[Hey Yo]

I agree that it rightfully belonged to Kareem, but still, holy shit...a rookie played out of position, put up great stats, and won the game.

Such a great first year for the greatest Laker dynasty.
Aside from the opening jump ball, he played pretty much every position at times that game. Clearly a myth that he played C only.

[LAZERUSS]

Aside from the opening jump ball, he played pretty much every position that game. Clearly a myth that he played C only.

And it must be noted that he pulled down a game high 15 rebounds, which was five more than anyone else in that game.

I recall the announcers discussing the loss of Kareem before that game six. One of them made the comment that he was wondering where the Lakers were going to get Kareem's 33 ppg and 14 rpg from. Magic resoundingly answered that question. 42 points and 15 rebounds.

[Hey Yo]

And it must be noted that he pulled down a game high 15 rebounds, which was five more than anyone else in that game.

I recall the announcers discussing the loss of Kareem before that game six. One of them made the comment that he was wondering where the Lakers were going to get Kareem's 33 ppg and 14 rpg from. Magic resoundingly answered that question. 42 points and 15 rebounds.
And it must be noted that Jamal Wilkes scored 37pts that game. It's not like Magic carried the entire scoring load. The difference is that Wilkes got to the line 5x while Magic went 14-14fta. Which isn't a surprise because Magic's career offensive game was spent backing down and in the post, drawing contact or dishing it off.

[LAZERUSS]

And it must be noted that Jamal Wilkes scored 37pts that game. It's not like Magic carried the entire scoring load. The difference is that Wilkes got to the line 5x while Magic went 14-14fta. Which isn't a surprise because Magic's career offensive game was spent backing down and in the post, drawing contact or dishing it off.

Oh, I agree. But then the fact that Wilkes played so well, sans Kareem, also tells me that both he and Magic could have put up much higher scoring series, had they been tasked to do so.

Furthermore, a rookie Wilkes was paired with Rick Barry and a cast of no-names, and went on to win a world title. A more seasoned Wilkes played with KAJ in '78 and '79, along with players like Nixon, Dantley, and Hudson, and were early round cannon-fodder.

A case could be made that both Wilkes and Magic would have done fine without Kareem.

[mr4speed]

I really respect your knowledge, and your research, and likely we will just have to agree to disagree here...but

In the 92-93 season, Divac and Worthy each played all 82 games. The result? A 39-43 record.

As for the "weaker" East...

Magic's Lakers went 2-1 against the 76ers in the 80's, 2-1 against the Celtics (and it should have been 3-0), and 1-1 against the Pistons (but, both Magic and Scott missed the majority of their '89 H2H Finals.)

And again, Magic went 24-8 without Kareem while the two were on the same team (including 1-0 in the post-season.) KAJ went 61-40 without Magic (and 0-2 in the post-season.)

As for the '80 FMVP, I really see nothing there. In REALITY, Magic played the ENTIRE series, and absolutely exploded when it counted most, and with Kareem watching the game from his couch. We will never know just how much more dominant Magic could have been in the '80 Finals, had he been pushed to lead that team the entire series. It was obvious the Sixers had no answer for him. And as great as Magic was in the '80 Finals, he was considerably more brilliant when he was asked to score more, in his '87 Finals.
Nothing wrong with disagreeing - that is often how I learn, since hearing other viewpoints should enlighten. Your research and facts are impressive. I believe that Worthy when he returned never did have the same quickness and vertical lift as before and that's too bad - hate to see that happen to anyone. It would have been really interesting if there had been a game 7 in 1980 finals - would Kareem have played? Would Philly have had time to strategize against Magic? Would Magic have had a similar game as game 6? As far as win - loss % if we break it down game by game here is what I have for all of Magic's finals in total. Lakers played 51 games and had 24 wins and 27 losses. 2 of those 27 losses against the Pistons should be thrown out as Magic had a pulled hamstring and didn't play in game 3 and 4 in 1989. So Magic would have a 24 win and 25 loss record. It puts in perspective how tough the East was in my opinion.

[LAZERUSS]

And the fact remains that Magic outvoted Kareem in the MVP balloting in their last EIGHT seasons in the league together (and Magic lost total votes because of Kareem BTW.)

Virtually everyone in the league, at the time, considered Magic the better player of the two. And I know that you can find a Riley quote saying differently, but I also find it fascinating that the Lakers made a HUGE contract deal with Magic, and basically told Kareem to take a back seat after the '81 season.

[LAZERUSS]

Nothing wrong with disagreeing - that is often how I learn, since hearing other viewpoints should enlighten. Your research and facts are impressive. I believe that Worthy when he returned never did have the same quickness and vertical lift as before and that's too bad - hate to see that happen to anyone. It would have been really interesting if there had been a game 7 in 1980 finals - would Kareem have played? Would Philly have had time to strategize against Magic? Would Magic have had a similar game as game 6? As far as win - loss % if we break it down game by game here is what I have for all of Magic's finals in total. Lakers played 51 games and had 24 wins and 27 losses. 2 of those 27 losses against the Pistons should be thrown out as Magic had a pulled hamstring and didn't play in game 3 and 4 in 1989. So Magic would have a 24 win and 25 loss record. It puts in perspective how tough the East was in my opinion.

Excellent post. I would tend to argue this, however. Again, Magic missed almost the entire second half of the '81 season. He may not have been at 100%, or perhaps he was rusty, but he played poorly in the first round, three game series against the Rockets (and of course, Moses outplayed Kareem, as well.) Given the fact that the Celtics had to win the last three games of the '81 ECF's, all by the narrowest of margins, to get to the Finals...and given the fact that the '80 and '82 Lakers easily handled those same Sixer teams, I am inclined to believe that a healthy Magic might have led the '81 Lakers to another title.

And while the '83 Sixers swept LA, (and with Moses just battering KAJ in that series), it must be noted that the last three games were close, AND, Worthy missed the entire series. So, with a healthy Worthy, who knows?

In the '84 Finals, the Lakers were one blown pass away in game two, and one missed FT away in game four, from sweeping the Celtics. But, given the fact that the '85 and '87 Lakers steamrolled Boston, I don't think there was any question that LA was the better team in that decade (especially after Boston was routed by the '88 Pistons, in a series in which Bird was awful, and then Magic, with Worthy, beat that Piston team for the title.)

No excuse for '86. The Lakers did not play well, and were shocked. But, they would go 6-1 against the Rockets in their next two playoff series, so it was obviously an upset.

'89 is interesting. The Lakers came into the Finals, 11-0. However, they had lost Byron Scott and his 20 ppg in the last game of the WCF's. Then, Magic was injured in game two (with the game tied at the time), and was basically done. Still, LA lost the last three games in the last minute. A healthy Magic and Scott might have made the difference.

[Hey Yo]

And the fact remains that Magic outvoted Kareem in the MVP balloting in their last EIGHT seasons in the league together (and Magic lost total votes because of Kareem BTW.)

Virtually everyone in the league, at the time, considered Magic the better player of the two. And I know that you can find a Riley quote saying differently, but I also find it fascinating that the Lakers made a HUGE contract deal with Magic, and basically told Kareem to take a back seat after the '81 season.
The first season of his last 8 (1982) Kareem was 34yrs old and was going into his 13th season. It's not a big surprise that that he would take a backseat to the younger Magic.

[LAZERUSS]

The first season of his last 8 (1982) Kareem was 34yrs old and was going into his 13th season. It's not a big surprise that that he would take a backseat to the younger Magic.

Oh of course. But that is the point. It was Magic who was the leader of those Laker title teams. I wouldn't argue with those that claim that Kareem was their best player in '80. But after '81, it was pretty clear that Magic was their leader, and best player.

[Hey Yo]

Oh of course. But that is the point. It was Magic who was the leader of those Laker title teams. I wouldn't argue with those that claim that Kareem was their best player in '80. But after '81, it was pretty clear that Magic was their leader, and best player.
He was seen as the leader on the court because he controlled the tempo / ran the show. But off the court, I would think that the voice of the team in the locker room would be the veteran KAJ.

[mr4speed]

Excellent post. I would tend to argue this, however. Again, Magic missed almost the entire second half of the '81 season. He may not have been at 100%, or perhaps he was rusty, but he played poorly in the first round, three game series against the Rockets (and of course, Moses outplayed Kareem, as well.) Given the fact that the Celtics had to win the last three games of the '81 ECF's, all by the narrowest of margins, to get to the Finals...and given the fact that the '80 and '82 Lakers easily handled those same Sixer teams, I am inclined to believe that a healthy Magic might have led the '81 Lakers to another title.

And while the '83 Sixers swept LA, (and with Moses just battering KAJ in that series), it must be noted that the last three games were close, AND, Worthy missed the entire series. So, with a healthy Worthy, who knows?

In the '84 Finals, the Lakers were one blown pass away in game two, and one missed FT away in game four, from sweeping the Celtics. But, given the fact that the '85 and '87 Lakers steamrolled Boston, I don't think there was any question that LA was the better team in that decade (especially after Boston was routed by the '88 Pistons, in a series in which Bird was awful, and then Magic, with Worthy, beat that Piston team for the title.)

No excuse for '86. The Lakers did not play well, and were shocked. But, they would go 6-1 against the Rockets in their next two playoff series, so it was obviously an upset.

'89 is interesting. The Lakers came into the Finals, 11-0. However, they had lost Byron Scott and his 20 ppg in the last game of the WCF's. Then, Magic was injured in game two (with the game tied at the time), and was basically done. Still, LA lost the last three games in the last minute. A healthy Magic and Scott might have made the difference.
I agree but also disagree - it would be boring if we all had the same opinion. I agree that LA was the best team of the decade. They have the titles to prove it. But the injuries to Magic and Scott show how tough the east was. I hate to see anyone get injured but it is unavoidable and unpredictable and I believe LA just had an easier path BUT you can't hold that against LA. As far as Magic in 81 goes he came back in game #66 of the regular season so that is 17 more regular season games to get ready for the playoffs. To say he was rusty or not ready I feel is an excuse for a bad playoff series against Houston. I think Kareem at this point was still LA's best player and either Boston or Philly would have beaten LA but that is my opinion. That eastern conference finals series in 81 was one of the best and closest series.

[LAZERUSS]

I agree but also disagree - it would be boring if we all had the same opinion. I agree that LA was the best team of the decade. They have the titles to prove it. But the injuries to Magic and Scott show how tough the east was. I hate to see anyone get injured but it is unavoidable and unpredictable and I believe LA just had an easier path BUT you can't hold that against LA. As far as Magic in 81 goes he came back in game #66 of the regular season so that is 17 more regular season games to get ready for the playoffs. To say he was rusty or not ready I feel is an excuse for a bad playoff series against Houston. I think Kareem at this point was still LA's best player and either Boston or Philly would have beaten LA but that is my opinion. That eastern conference finals series in 81 was one of the best and closest series.

:cheers:

[eliteballer]

Magic's stats for the series:

21.5 pts, 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl, 57 FG%, 88 FT%, including Game 6 where Kareem didn't even play.

Or did your ignorant self not look that up?

:hammerhead:

[Roundball_Rock]

I also find it fascinating that the Lakers made a HUGE contract deal with Magic, and basically told Kareem to take a back seat after the '81 season.

The Lakers did not ask Magic to become the "leader" until 1986 or 1987.

MVP finishes

1980: KAJ 1st (Magic received no MVP vote)
1981: KAJ 3rd, Magic 11th
1982: Magic 8th, KAJ 10th
1983: Magic 3rd, KAJ 10th
1984: Magic 3rd, KAJ 4th
1985: Magic 2nd, KAJ 4th
1986: Magic 3rd, KAJ 5th

So other than 1980, 1981 and 1983 they received a similar number of MVP votes. In two of the three years where there was a large gap it was Kareem who was ahead. After 1986 Kareem fell off and never received another MVP vote.

It should be noted that by 1982 KAJ was 34 years old so just the fact that Kareem, up to age 38, remained in the conversation with prime Magic regarding who the superior player was speaks volumes about how great Kareem was and how he hands down has the best longevity of any top all-time great. :bowdown:

Let's also keep in mind that Magic was, outside of MJ, the ultimate media darling while KAJ was never loved by the media. These things surely impacted the MVP voting to a degree by tilting voting in favor of Magic.