Artis Gilmore bullying 265 lb Kareem with one arm

[jongib369]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/legends/artis-gilmore/artis-gilmore-300a.jpg


http://youtu.be/gf6ABWKQ65w


"If I were to have had the opportunity to face Shaq I would work to prevent him from catching the ball on the box near the basket. That would mean using physical strength to force him to catch the ball further away from the basket, and to make him use more energies on all attempts to receive the ball on offense. Many centers simply don

[jongib369]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lugsj9M2gU1qm9rypo1_1280.jpg

[5 rings fan]

That view is cool

Kobe >>>> everyone though

[LAZERUSS]

And how about Gilmore blocking Kareem's sky hook in the air...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXCHDcSHBS4

[Marlo_Stanfield]

That view is cool

Kobe >>>> everyone though
most random kobrick stan post ever:facepalm :facepalm
Gilmore= beast
inb4 weak era:coleman:

[stanlove1111]

And how about Gilmore blocking Kareem's sky hook in the air...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXCHDcSHBS4
Obvious goaltending.

I read the comments on this video and was reminded how dumb many people are. There was a debate about whether it was goaltending or not, and one guy tried to win the argument by saying he knew someone at the game and they told him it wasn't goaltending. Like that would win the argument..

[5 rings fan]

most random kobrick stan post ever:facepalm :facepalm
Gilmore= beast
inb4 weak era:coleman:
Look at artis gilmore in that picture, 8 inch vertical much ? :roll:
I would ankle break him on a streetball scene had I played back then, using skills from my idol Kobe

[LAZERUSS]

Obvious goaltending.

Nope.

Gilmore, and Wilt (who did it frequently) blocked the sky hook at it's apex.

[jongib369]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_maq24unsX91rzrfkto1_500.gif

http://37.media.tumblr.com/b280b2052e17751eb02444b4880b1034/tumblr_mnziq4kzhq1ql7lx2o1_400.gif

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Nope.

Gilmore, and Wilt (who did it frequently) blocked the sky hook at it's apex.
yes in that video it is a close goal tend imo but we all know Wilt blocked kareems skyhook twice in a row without goaltending:bowdown: :bowdown:
thats why hes the GOAT:applause: :applause:

[jongib369]

Look at artis gilmore in that picture, 8 inch vertical much ? :roll:
I would ankle break him on a streetball scene had I played back then, using skills from my idol Kobe
http://www.artisgilmore.com/imgs_2/Artishomeimg_sml.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

Gilmore at ages 35 and 36, and in 10 straight H2H games against Hakeem...

24 ppg on a .677 FG%.

[5 rings fan]

yes in that video it is a close goal tend imo but we all know Wilt blocked kareems skyhook twice in a row without goaltending:bowdown: :bowdown:
thats why hes the GOAT:applause: :applause:

I got 1.Kobe , 2.Wilt/MJ 3. MJ/Wilt

then comes in the kareem, bird...etc

Russell is not top 20, a 11 rings winner cannot have worse h2h stats than your matchup most of the time

thats just like Jordan gets outplayed by Drexler every time

[LAZERUSS]

yes in that video it is a close goal tend imo but we all know Wilt blocked kareems skyhook twice in a row without goaltending:bowdown: :bowdown:
thats why hes the GOAT:applause: :applause:

How about a 36 year old Chamberlain against a 22 year old Artis...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1utx7OxiaoU

[sportjames23]

Obvious goaltending.

I read the comments on this video and was reminded how dumb many people are. There was a debate about whether it was goaltending or not, and one guy tried to win the argument by saying he knew someone at the game and they told him it wasn't goaltending. Like that would win the argument..


:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Uncle Drew]

And how about Gilmore blocking Kareem's sky hook in the air...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXCHDcSHBS4
Goaltend.

[LAZERUSS]

Goaltend.

Again...nope.

[Uncle Drew]

Again...nope.
Ball is on it's way down. How ''nope''?

[5 rings fan]

How about a 36 year old Chamberlain against a 22 year old Artis...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1utx7OxiaoU
holy wilt was an amazing passer :applause:

[KobesFinger]

Do you think he could stop Shaq from getting deep position? I'd liken Gilmore to David Robinson in terms of physique and strength. Neither were particularly heavy for the C position but both were unbelievably strong. In this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azagH-9rRlE) (Rookie Shaq vs 4th year D-Rob), Shaq gets good post position on him a few times.

[navy]

And how about Gilmore blocking Kareem's sky hook in the air...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXCHDcSHBS4
Looks like a goal tend.

[LAZERUSS]

Do you think he could stop Shaq from getting deep position? I'd liken Gilmore to David Robinson in terms of physique and strength. Neither were particularly heavy for the C position but both were unbelievably strong. In this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azagH-9rRlE) (Rookie Shaq vs 4th year D-Rob), Shaq gets good post position on him a few times.

Granted Shaq was probably only around 300 lbs at the time but...


Christian Science Monitor - Jan 25, 1993

After the Celtics lost to the Magic, 113-94, Robert Parish said that in his 17- year career, only longtime Chicago Bulls star Artis Gilmore was physically stronger than O'Neal, but that Shaq was more athletic - "and that is a very scary thought," he said in mock seriousness.

BTW, a prime Gilmore was easily 290 lbs.

[rhowen4]

Nope.

Gilmore, and Wilt (who did it frequently) blocked the sky hook at it's apex.
by apex, do you mean not apex?

[Rocketswin2013]

I've noticed something....For all of the bashing Dwight gets for this era and how MUCH BETTER centers were back in older eras...Dwight's better than the majority of them....Like Gilmore....

[LAZERUSS]

I've noticed something....For all of the bashing Dwight gets for this era and how MUCH BETTER centers were back in older eras...Dwight's better than the majority of them....Like Gilmore....

:roll: :roll: :roll:

In the early to mid-70's...

Cowens, McAdoo, Gilmore, Thurmond, Reed, Walton, Kareem, and Wilt...

ALL considerably better than Dwight.

[sportjames23]

I've noticed something....For all of the bashing Dwight gets for this era and how MUCH BETTER centers were back in older eras...Dwight's better than the majority of them....Like Gilmore....

:biggums:

I like Dwight, but he'd get clowned by most star centers back then.

[jongib369]

I've noticed something....For all of the bashing Dwight gets for this era and how MUCH BETTER centers were back in older eras...Dwight's better than the majority of them....Like Gilmore....
Might enjoy watching this

http://youtu.be/i1xqwh7PE4I

[Rocketswin2013]

Early 70s had to be the weakest era for players in basketball, my god....


I'm pretty sure Howard would have snagged at least 2 MVP's out of that....

Bob McAdoo and Moses "no defense" Malone won some.....

:facepalm

[Straight_Ballin]

yes in that video it is a close goal tend imo but we all know Wilt blocked kareems skyhook twice in a row without goaltending:bowdown: :bowdown:
thats why hes the GOAT:applause: :applause:

Lol, yes because blocking a skyhook makes you GOAT. Wilt played against inferior comp most of his career so there goes that whole argument.

[Paul George 24]

That view is cool

Kobe >>>> everyone though
shaq >>>>>>>>>>>>>> kobe :no:

[stanlove1111]

yes in that video it is a close goal tend imo but we all know Wilt blocked kareems skyhook twice in a row without goaltending:bowdown: :bowdown:
thats why hes the GOAT:applause: :applause:


Its an obvious goaltending just like Wilt's second block of Jabbar was goal tending.

[LAZERUSS]

Lol, yes because blocking a skyhook makes you GOAT. Wilt played against inferior comp most of his career so there goes that whole argument.

In back-to-back games (two straight nights)...

Against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy on 1/13/62:
73 points, 36 rebounds, 29-48 FG/FGA. 15-25 FT/FTA

Against 6-10 HOFer Bill Russell on 1/14/62:
62 points, 28 rebounds, 27-45 FG/FGA, 8-10 FT/FTA

[Straight_Ballin]

He would be shaq in modern era and we all know MJ GOAT over Shaq so MJ would still be GOAT.

[Rocketswin2013]

1. Thurmond was volume shooter and just terrible efficency wise. Dwight beats him easy.

2. McAdoo peaked early and still wasn't on par with peak Dwight IMO. Only 25 PPG PER 36 in a ridicuously paced era. Dwight was simply better on defense carrying scrubs to top 5 DRTG's yearly.

3. Gilmore was also close to peak Dwight but not quite. Defensively Dwight blows him out...Offensively...it's a wash.


4. Bill Walton's offensive peak wasn't impressive at all..It was his defense...He was better than Dwight considering everything...Dwight's longevity is still miles better.

5. Lakers Wilt was meh tbh.....Wasn't prolific of a scorer and obviously took his shots economically...I could make a case for Dwight over him peak-wise but that would take pages and an entirely different thread so I'll just leave it alone. Lakers Wilt > = Peak Dwight in short. Dwight blows him out playoff performance-wise though so....Yeah.....

6. Kareem blows him out. Not close, at least offensively... Peak Kareem even blows out Wilt's stat padding ass too though so no worries...

7. Don't insult me by bringing up Dave Cowens...My god...That's so delusional to even mention him and that's flat out trolling....

8. LOL WILLIS REED. Volume scorer compared to Dwight...Not even a better scorer...

INB4 "POST GAME, 10 FT BANK SHOT, OUTLET PASS, BETTER THEN DWIGHT, HE HAD MORE OFFENSIVE WEAPONS". I don't really give a **** about his weapons...He was not as effective therefore his weapons mean shit.... Dwight blows him out defensively.

[Rocketswin2013]

Robert Parish's longevity is something but peak for peak it ain't close.......

[LAZERUSS]

1. Thurmond was volume shooter and just terrible efficency wise.

2. McAdoo peaked early and still wasn't on par with peak Dwight IMO. Only 25 PPG PER 36 in a ridicuously paced era. Dwight was simply better on defense carrying scrubs to top 5 DRTG's yearly.

3. Gilmore was also close to peak Dwight but not quite. Defensively Dwight blows him out...Offensively...it's a wash.


4. Bill Walton's offensive peak wasn't impressive at all..It was his defense...He was better than Dwight consideing everything...Dwight's longevity is still miles better.

5. Lakers Wilt was meh tbh.....Wasn't prolific of a scoerer and obviously took his shots economically...I could make a case for Dwight over him peak-wise but that would take pages and an entirely different thread so I'll jus leave it alone. Lakers Wilt > = Peak Dwight in short. Dwight blows him out playoff performance-wise though so....Yeah.....

6. Kareem blows him out. Not close, at least offensively... Peak Kareem even blows out Wilt's stat padding ass too though so no worries...

7. Don't insult me by bringing up Dave Cowens...My god...That's so delusional to even mention him and that's flat out trolling....

8. LOL WILLIS REED. Volume scorer compared to Dwight...Not even a better scorer...

INB4 "POST GAME, 10 FT BANK SHOT, OUTLET PASS, BETTER THEN DWIGHT, HE HAD MORE OFFENSIVE WEAPONS". I don't really give a **** about his weapons...He was not as effective therefore his weapons mean shit.... Dwight blows him out defensively.

I could shred this entire POS post...

but this immediately caught my attention

In his 74-75 season, in 43.2 mpg, McAdoo averaged 35.4 ppg on .512 shooting (.805 from the line BTW)...in an NBA that averaged 102.6 ppg on a .457 eFG%.

35.4 ppg in a league that averaged 102.6 ppg. BTW, Kareem averaged 30.0 ppg on a .513 FG% that same season.


Then, in the post-season, McAdoo averaged 37.4 ppg in a post-season NBA that averaged...get this... 100.5 ppg.

GTFO...

[MavsSuperFan]

http://www.artisgilmore.com/imgs_2/Artishomeimg_sml.jpg
this picture discredits him. Look at his competition

[LAZERUSS]

this picture discredits him. Look at his competition

Yeah...with his head at rim level, and his hand at about 12' 6"...

it was because of his competition.

Put that Gilmore in today's NBA, and he wouldn't be able to get his hand to RIM level.

[MavsSuperFan]

Yeah...with his head at rim level, and his hand at about 12' 6"...

it was because of his competition.

Put that Gilmore in today's NBA, and he wouldn't be able to get his hand to RIM level.
Look where his competition is shooting from, and their lack of jumping ability.

His stats/awards/wins/accomplishments are inflated due to the weak era.
Not saying gilmore wouldnt be great in this era, but all of his stats/awards/wins/accomplishments are inflated

[Rocketswin2013]

I could shred this entire POS post...

but this immediately caught my attention

In his 74-75 season, in 43.2 mpg, McAdoo averaged 35.4 ppg on .512 shooting (.805 from the line BTW)...in an NBA that averaged 102.6 ppg on a .457 eFG%.

35.4 ppg in a league that averaged 102.6 ppg. BTW, Kareem averaged 30.0 ppg on a .513 FG% that same season.


Then, in the post-season, McAdoo averaged 37.4 ppg in a post-season NBA that averaged...get this... 100.5 ppg.

GTFO...
Who the **** do you think you're fooling with that stupid skewed argument? leaugue average team PPG :facepalm TRY FGA.......
Team's were putting up a unreal amount of shots in an era full of....not the greatest wing players....So the good players are bound to look better...ESPECIALLY centers.

Also, PER 36 he had 28 PPG in 75' Playoffs.... 37 PPG in 48 MPG is not impressive......Not when Wilt did it and not when McAdoo did it.....

ALSO, LOL! Shred it. Don't waste stupid time on the Wilt part though...I already told you he was better. Shred the other players you dumb****.. Defend DAVE COWENS. Defend Thurmond.. Defend Artis Gilmore. I really want to see you make a case over Dwight's production.


This should be good....

[KobesFinger]

How has this become about Wilt?

[Kblaze8855]

Bill Walton's offensive peak wasn't impressive at all..

Bill Walton was easily a better offensive player than Dwight Howard. Easily.

Dwight Howard scored more points. There is a rather large difference.

If you tried to defend Walton like players defend Dwight he would either score 30 or have 16 points and 9 assists.

If Dwight could pass and run an offense from the high post like Bill Walton the league would belong to him.



Also...on that picture of Gilmore dude claims discredits him(itself...laughable)...

You even look at the jersey?

[LAZERUSS]

Who the **** do you think you're fooling with that stupid skewed argument? leaugue average team PPG :facepalm TRY FGA.......
Team's were putting up a unreal amount of shots in an era full of....not the greatest wing players....So the good players are bound to look better...ESPECIALLY centers.

Also, PER 36 he had 28 PPG in 75' Playoffs.... 37 PPG in 48 MPG is not impressive......Not when Wilt did it and not when McAdoo did it.....

ALSO, LOL! Shred it. Don't waste stupid time on the Wilt part though...I already told you he was better. Shred the other players you dumb****.. Defend DAVE COWENS. Defend Thurmond.. Defend Artis Gilmore. I really want to see you make a case over Dwight's production.


This should be good....

In the '75 playoffs, the NBA averaged 92.6 FGA per game. In 2014 it is at 81.1.

Reduce McAdoo's FGAs down to 2014 playoff levels, and he would have averaged 27 FGAs per game, instead of 31. BUT, you also have to ELEVATE his eFG% to 2014 levels, as well. Instead of shooting .481 in a post-season that shot .456, he would have shot .524. So, he would have averaged 14.2 FGM, or 28.4 ppg, just on his FGAs. The '75 post-season NBA averaged 27.3 FTAs as compared to '14's 25.1 FTAs per game. So we will reduce McAdoo's 10.4 FTAs down to '14 levels, or 9.5 FTA per game. He shot .740 from the line in the '75 playoffs...so 7.1 FTM. 28.4 + 7.1 = 35.5 ppg.

So plant the '75 McAdoo in the 2014 playoffs, and he would be averaging 35.5 ppg in his 46.7 mpg. Durant leads this playoffs at 44.5 mpg, so we will drop McAdoo down to 44.5 mpg. So now a '75 McAdoo with EVERY stat now NORMALIZED for 2014...would be averaging 33.8 ppg in the 2014 playoffs.

[Rocketswin2013]

Bill Walton was easily a better offensive player than Dwight Howard. Easily.

Dwight Howard scored more points. There is a rather large difference.

If you tried to defend Walton like players defend Dwight he would either score 30 or have 16 points and 9 assists.

If Dwight could pass and run an offense from the high post like Bill Walton the league would belong to him.



Also...on that picture of Gilmore dude claims discredits him(itself...laughable)...

You even look at the jersey?
Not imppressive to me. And he wouldn't hang 9 assists it would be a more moderate 4-5. There are players in the league better right now offensively. Several players. There might be a center in the league right now better than him at passing.... But I did say Walton was better so I don't see where the discussion lies. :confusedshrug:

[LAZERUSS]

Who the **** do you think you're fooling with that stupid skewed argument? leaugue average team PPG :facepalm TRY FGA.......
Team's were putting up a unreal amount of shots in an era full of....not the greatest wing players....So the good players are bound to look better...ESPECIALLY centers.

Also, PER 36 he had 28 PPG in 75' Playoffs.... 37 PPG in 48 MPG is not impressive......Not when Wilt did it and not when McAdoo did it.....

ALSO, LOL! Shred it. Don't waste stupid time on the Wilt part though...I already told you he was better. Shred the other players you dumb****.. Defend DAVE COWENS. Defend Thurmond.. Defend Artis Gilmore. I really want to see you make a case over Dwight's production.


This should be good....

Even you have claimed that Kareem was better than Dwight.

A PEAK Kareem, from '69-70 thru '72-73, and against a fulltime Thurmond, had about 35 H2H's. He shot...get this... .447 against Thurmond in those H2H's. His HIGH game was 34 points, and he only had FIVE of 30+.

In their '72 playoff H2H's, the MVP Kareem, who had averaged 34.8 ppg on a .574 FG% in the regular season, ...

against Nate... 22.8 ppg on a .405 FG%. Oh, and Thurmond averaged 25.4 ppg on a .437 FG% against Kareem in that same series. And just to prove that it was no fluke, the very next season, and in the first round of the playoffs, Nate again held Kareem to a 22.8 ppg average, on a .428 FG%.

And yet a 38-39 year old Kareem, who couldn't jump over a match-stick, averaged 32 ppg on a .621 FG% against Hakeem in the course of TEN STRAIGHT games, with THREE games of 40, 43, and 46 points (in only 37 minutes, and on 70% shooting.)

I would love to have seen a peak Howard battle a peak Kareem....

Nate > Dwight.

[Rocketswin2013]

Even you have claimed that Kareem was better than Dwight.

A PEAK Kareem, from '69-70 thru '72-73, and against a fulltime Thurmond, had about 35 H2H's. He shot...get this... .447 against Thurmond in those H2H's. His HIGH game was 34 points, and he only had FIVE of 30+.

In their '72 playoff H2H's, the MVP Kareem, who had averaged 34.8 ppg on a .574 FG% in the regular season, ...

against Nate... 22.8 ppg on a .405 FG%. Oh, and Thurmond averaged 25.4 ppg on a .437 FG% against Kareem in that same series. And just to prove that it was no fluke, the very next season, and in the first round of the playoffs, Nate again held Kareem to a 22.8 ppg average, on a .428 FG%.

And yet a 38-39 year old Kareem, who couldn't jump over a match-stick, averaged 32 ppg on a .621 FG% against Hakeem in the course of TEN STRAIGHT games, with THREE games of 40, 43, and 46 points (in only 37 minutes, and on 70% shooting.)

I would love to have seen a peak Howard battle a peak Kareem....

Nate > Dwight.
Thrumond.............Honestly, you can't look too much at H2H. Yeah Thurmond got into Kareem but so did Moses...Who wasn't the GOAT defender..... And I mean...Rasheed Wallace used to trash Duncan throughout their careers.....Doesn't mean it made him that much of a better player... Jimmy Butler has outplayed LeBron James several times H2H......

And I would also like to see what a Prime Dwight Howard would do to Kareem's 230 lb frame...

[Kblaze8855]

In the '75 playoffs, the NBA averaged 92.6 FGA per game. In 2014 it is at 81.1.

Reduce McAdoo's FGAs down to 2014 playoff levels, and he would have averaged 27 FGAs per game, instead of 31. BUT, you also have to ELEVATE his eFG% to 2014 levels, as well. Instead of shooting .481 in a post-season that shot .456, he would have shot .524. So, he would have averaged 14.2 FGM, or 28.4 ppg, just on his FGAs. The '75 post-season NBA averaged 27.3 FTAs as compared to '14's 25.1 FTAs per game. So we will reduce McAdoo's 10.4 FTAs down to '14 levels, or 9.5 FTA per game. He shot .740 from the line in the '75 playoffs...so 7.1 FTM. 28.4 + 7.1 = 35.5 ppg.

So plant the '75 McAdoo in the 2014 playoffs, and he would be averaging 35.5 ppg in his 46.7 mpg. Durant leads this playoffs at 44.5 mpg, so we will drop McAdoo down to 44.5 mpg. So now a '75 McAdoo with EVERY stat now NORMALIZED for 2014...would be averaging 33.8 ppg in the 2014 playoffs.


You should really stop being the one trying to defend previous eras.

There is no way to assume anyone shoots better because its 2014. You want to extrapolate number of shots...ok. There is at least a basis in reality to work from.

The idea that during such a conversion you have to assume a guy magically shoots better is just pulled out of your ass.

Shots go in or they dont. Defense is better than it was in 1975. Far more stressed. Efg% has nothing to do with Bobs skillset or how hes likely to be used in 2014.

Way he could shoot I wouldnt be surprised if he turned into a Rashard Lewis/Kevin Garnett hybrid minus KGs defense. Should be a very good player.

But you just cant convert numbers across the line that way. A dozen things would be different.....

[SHAQisGOAT]

Early 70s had to be the weakest era for players in basketball, my god....


I'm pretty sure Howard would have snagged at least 2 MVP's out of that....

Bob McAdoo and Moses "no defense" Malone won some.....

:facepalm

This dude always comes up with some of the dumbest shit I've ever read in my life :facepalm :facepalm Stop discussing basketball, son.

[Rocketswin2013]

This dude always comes up with some of the dumbest shit I've ever read in my life :facepalm :facepalm Stop discussing basketball, son.
You're the most nostalgic poster I've ever seen so I really don't think we'll ever agree on anything involving this.....

[LAZERUSS]

You should really stop being the one trying to defend previous eras.

There is no way to assume anyone shoots better because its 2014. You want to extrapolate number of shots...ok. There is at least a basis in reality to work from.

The idea that during such a conversion you have to assume a guy magically shoots better is just pulled out of your ass.

Shots go in or they dont. Defense is better than it was in 1975. Far more stressed. Efg% has nothing to do with Bobs skillset or how hes likely to be used in 2014.

Way he could shoot I wouldnt be surprised if he turned into a Rashard Lewis/Kevin Garnett hybrid minus KGs defense. Should be a very good player.

But you just cant convert numbers across the line that way. A dozen things would be different.....

BUT, you can also use the players who played for 10-20 years in their NBA careers, and see their FG%'s against particular time frames. No way was an 80's Kareem a better shooter than a PRIME Kareem. And Gilmore SUDDENLY took a HUGE jump from his prime 70's, and into the 80's...even on a relatively same amount of FGAs.

Conversely, take a look at the best centers of the 80's and who played into the 90's. Guys like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing. EARLY in their careers they were putting up their career highs. In their supposed PRIMES, their FG%s were DECLINING.

Did the best centers of the 70's, and who played into the 80's, almost man-for-man, become better, to much better shooters...and yet the best centers from the 80's, that played into the 90's...become worse????

[Rocketswin2013]

ShaqisGOAT....

Rank these centers...Peak for peak...

Parish
Walton
Howard
Malone

[Kblaze8855]

Not imppressive to me. And he wouldn't hang 9 assists it would be a more moderate 4-5. There are players in the league better right now offensively. Several players. There might be a center in the league right now better than him at passing.... But I did say Walton was better so I don't see where the discussion lies. :confusedshrug:

It lies in exactly what I quoted. And even if there are better offensive players in the league than Walton that doesnt mean anything when the issue is him on offense vs Dwight.

And yes....leave Bill single covered and allowed to gradually work into position for a shot as teams do Dwight at times...or...run that hard double to confuse him because hes a poor/slow decision maker?

Bill Walton is racking up triple doubles. Given Houstons shooters to pass to?

But thats the thing....you couldnt defend Walton like Dwight for just that reason.

So no...he wouldnt get 9 assists on a regular basis. You wouldnt be dumb enough to double off anyone to Bill Walton. Hes on a short list of best high and low post passers of all time.

Dwight with that one element of Bills game might well be the best player in the game. You couldnt defend him anymore.

[SHAQisGOAT]

You're the most nostalgic poster I've ever seen so I really don't think we'll ever agree on anything involving this.....

:rolleyes:

Yea, go on with the bullshit.

[SHAQisGOAT]

You should really stop being the one trying to defend previous eras.

There is no way to assume anyone shoots better because its 2014. You want to extrapolate number of shots...ok. There is at least a basis in reality to work from.

The idea that during such a conversion you have to assume a guy magically shoots better is just pulled out of your ass.

Shots go in or they dont. Defense is better than it was in 1975. Far more stressed. Efg% has nothing to do with Bobs skillset or how hes likely to be used in 2014.

Way he could shoot I wouldnt be surprised if he turned into a Rashard Lewis/Kevin Garnett hybrid minus KGs defense. Should be a very good player.

But you just cant convert numbers across the line that way. A dozen things would be different.....

Well I can also say that I wouldn't be surprised if he turned into a Durant/Dirk/KG hybrid (with different aspects of each's game), a terrific player, at his best before injuries.

[Rocketswin2013]

It lies in exactly what I quoted. And even if there are better offensive players in the league than Walton that doesnt mean anything when the issue is him on offense vs Dwight.

And yes....leave Bill single covered and allowed to gradually work into position for a shot as teams do Dwight at times...or...run that hard double to confuse him because hes a poor/slow decision maker?

Bill Walton is racking up triple doubles. Given Houstons shooters to pass to?

But thats the thing....you couldnt defend Walton like Dwight for just that reason.

So no...he wouldnt get 9 assists on a regular basis. You wouldnt be dumb enough to double off anyone to Bill Walton. Hes on a short list of best high and low post passers of all time.

Dwight with that one element of Bills game might well be the best player in the game. You couldnt defend him anymore.
Dwight with even Duncan's ability to pass would have been much better....

Hell, even Shaq's footwork would have made him a 20 PPG scorer at the very least in his worst years......He just lacks the proper Basketball skills..But at least it isn't as bad as Deandre Jordan's....

[SHAQisGOAT]

ShaqisGOAT....

Rank these centers...Peak for peak...

Parish
Walton
Howard
Malone

Walton
Moses
Dwight
Parish

Happy? :rolleyes:
Walton and Moses are pretty close, then Dwight and Parish, something along those lines too but clearler. Ofc as far as careers, considering everything, it would've been different.

[Dr.J4ever]

You should really stop being the one trying to defend previous eras.

There is no way to assume anyone shoots better because its 2014. You want to extrapolate number of shots...ok. There is at least a basis in reality to work from.

The idea that during such a conversion you have to assume a guy magically shoots better is just pulled out of your ass.

Shots go in or they dont. Defense is better than it was in 1975. Far more stressed. Efg% has nothing to do with Bobs skillset or how hes likely to be used in 2014.

Way he could shoot I wouldnt be surprised if he turned into a Rashard Lewis/Kevin Garnett hybrid minus KGs defense. Should be a very good player.

But you just cant convert numbers across the line that way. A dozen things would be different.....
Well said. This is where Lazerus' stats and assumptions across different eras fail. When you think everything can be reduced to a numbers game and math, to me, it's no longer basketball we are talking about here.

I have seen basketball in 3 different decades already starting from the 80s, and I can say with full confidence that the game is completely different today, much of it on defense. Many numbers and stats will fall by the wayside as you count the number of ways today's NBA is different from 70s basketball, or even further back.

[SHAQisGOAT]

[QUOTE=jongib369]http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/legends/artis-gilmore/artis-gilmore-300a.jpg


http://youtu.be/gf6ABWKQ65w


"If I were to have had the opportunity to face Shaq I would work to prevent him from catching the ball on the box near the basket. That would mean using physical strength to force him to catch the ball further away from the basket, and to make him use more energies on all attempts to receive the ball on offense. Many centers simply don

[LAZERUSS]

Well said. This is where Lazerus' stats and assumptions across different eras fail. When you think everything can be reduced to a number game and math, to me, it's no longer basketball we are talking about here.

I have seen basketball in 3 different decades already starting from the 80s, and I can say with full confidence that the game is completely different today, much of it on defense. Many numbers and stats will fall by the wayside as you count the number of ways today's NBA is different from 70s basketball, or even further back.

And I have seen 5 decades of baseball and football in my lifetime. Were the pitchers in 1968 that much better than the pitchers in 1995? And how come today's pitching is so much better than that of the 90's?

And were the defenses of the late 60's and early 70's NFL that much better than the defenses of today?

And how come FT%'s have remain relatively constant since the late 50's and even into today...and yet, the eFG%'s have shot thru the roof?

[SHAQisGOAT]

Well said. This is where Lazerus' stats and assumptions across different eras fail. When you think everything can be reduced to a number game and math, to me, it's no longer basketball we are talking about here.

I have seen basketball in 3 different decades already starting from the 80s, and I can say with full confidence that the game is completely different today, much of it on defense. Many numbers and stats will fall by the wayside as you count the number of ways today's NBA is different from 70s basketball, or even further back.

I wouldn't say that it's that different, at all. Some rules changes across the years too, written and unwritten, ofc, but people overblown all of that stuff. And I can also say that offense has gotten worse, from a team stand-point.

[Dr.J4ever]

And I have seen 5 decades of baseball and football in my lifetime. Were the pitchers in 1968 that much better than the pitchers in 1995? And how come today's pitching is so much better than that of the 90's?

And were the defenses of the late 60's and early 70's NFL that much better than the defenses of today?

I'll stick to basketball on this. I think you know what Kblaze was saying, and I would add that you can't just look at stats, but you must look at the CONTEXT of the stats..The teams they played on, opportunities, roles that change, playing against rookies and veterans, and many more affect those stats stats and your assumptions over eras.

[LAZERUSS]

I'll stick to basketball on this. I think you know what Kblaze was saying, and I would add that you can't just look at stats, but you must look at the CONTEXT of the stats..The teams they played on, opportunities, roles that change, playing against rookies and veterans, and many more affect those stats stats and your assumptions over eras.

Basketball SHOOTING hasn't changed much at all since the invention of the jump shot in the 30's. Again, FT%'s are exactly the same today, as they were in 1959.

What has changed is the way defenses and offenses are played and the pace at which they are played. Chamberlain would not have shot .461 from the field in the 80's, and in fact, I would contend that he would have been shooting 60-75% every season in the 80's. And despite the somewhat fewer FGAs in the 80's, as compared to the 60's, the difference is more than made up by a FAR greater efficiency in the 80's. Put a '62 Wilt into MJ's '87 season, and he would have averaged 45 ppg on a .590 FG%.

Kareem averaged 34.8 ppg on a .574 eFG% in '72. He averaged 30.0 ppg on an eFG% of .513 in '74. In '76 he averaged 27.7 ppg on an eFG% of .529. In '81 he averaged 26.2 ppg on an eFG% of .574. How come the roller coaster rides?

BTW, Chamberlain was, by virtually all counts, a MUCH better shooter early in his career. Hell, his FT shooting was considerably better in the early 60's, and got progressively worse after that. BUT, his FG%s went up, and then shot thru the roof. Oh, and even at age 32, and in a season in which he hardly shot the ball, 68-69, he STILL hung TWO 60+ point games. Kareem came into the league the very next year...and played for 20 seasons (four IN the Wilt-era.) His HIGH game? 55 points. How come?

[Dr.J4ever]

I wouldn't say that it's that different, at all. Some rules changes across the years too, written and unwritten, ofc, but people overblown all of that stuff. And I can also say that offense has gotten worse, from a team stand-point.
BTW, I'm not defending Rocketswin. He's biased for today's era, but I guess we all have our biases. The game is completely different. The way defenses are set up---what they are trying to stop, the way offenses operate, and therefore the type of players teams are looking for.

I just think today's NBA is better, and worse, depending on what you are looking for. Wanna talk centers? The 70s and 80s were way better.

[jongib369]

Do you think he could stop Shaq from getting deep position? I'd liken Gilmore to David Robinson in terms of physique and strength. Neither were particularly heavy for the C position but both were unbelievably strong. In this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azagH-9rRlE) (Rookie Shaq vs 4th year D-Rob), Shaq gets good post position on him a few times.

Wouldn't be a "Shaq stopper", he'd get his and put up great numbers... But think Gilmore could potentially give him problems.. From what I know he's a bit heavier and taller than you're thinking, so Shaq would have to push himself for position more so than anyone he went against.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg3BiOw4TWo

[Burgz V2]

Nope.

Gilmore, and Wilt (who did it frequently) blocked the sky hook at it's apex.

...and this wasnt one of them

[mr4speed]

How about a 36 year old Chamberlain against a 22 year old Artis...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1utx7OxiaoU
Thanks for sharing this footage!! That behind the back bounce pass from Wilt to Goodrich was incredible - and he did it twice!! Didn't Wilt lead the league in assists in 66-67 season?

[LAZERUSS]

Thanks for sharing this footage!! That behind the back bounce pass from Wilt to Goodrich was incredible - and he did it twice!! Didn't Wilt lead the league in assists in 66-67 season?

Yes he did...albeit, Oscar only played in 65 games, but had a higher apg average.

[AintNoSunshine]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lugsj9M2gU1qm9rypo1_1280.jpg


why is he blocking the little white girl's layup?:wtf:

[LAZERUSS]

why is he blocking the little white girl's layup?:wtf:

Yeah, Rick Barry's layup.

His son won a slam-dunk contest BTW.

[La Frescobaldi]

why is he blocking the little white girl's layup?:wtf:
that dude would be MVP level any year since 2003.

[La Frescobaldi]

1. Thurmond was volume shooter and just terrible efficency wise. Dwight beats him easy.

2. McAdoo peaked early and still wasn't on par with peak Dwight IMO. Only 25 PPG PER 36 in a ridicuously paced era. Dwight was simply better on defense carrying scrubs to top 5 DRTG's yearly.

3. Gilmore was also close to peak Dwight but not quite. Defensively Dwight blows him out...Offensively...it's a wash.


4. Bill Walton's offensive peak wasn't impressive at all..It was his defense...He was better than Dwight considering everything...Dwight's longevity is still miles better.

5. Lakers Wilt was meh tbh.....Wasn't prolific of a scorer and obviously took his shots economically...I could make a case for Dwight over him peak-wise but that would take pages and an entirely different thread so I'll just leave it alone. Lakers Wilt > = Peak Dwight in short. Dwight blows him out playoff performance-wise though so....Yeah.....

6. Kareem blows him out. Not close, at least offensively... Peak Kareem even blows out Wilt's stat padding ass too though so no worries...

7. Don't insult me by bringing up Dave Cowens...My god...That's so delusional to even mention him and that's flat out trolling....

8. LOL WILLIS REED. Volume scorer compared to Dwight...Not even a better scorer...

INB4 "POST GAME, 10 FT BANK SHOT, OUTLET PASS, BETTER THEN DWIGHT, HE HAD MORE OFFENSIVE WEAPONS". I don't really give a **** about his weapons...He was not as effective therefore his weapons mean shit.... Dwight blows him out defensively.

Walton is better than any center of this era since O'Neal. It's really not even close. I'd take him over D Rob every day and 10x more in a playoffs game.

I understand era bias, I've got some myself. But it's ludicrous to say stuff like that when you've probably watched less than 10 minutes of Walton's career. Same thing with Cowens.
Howard better than ANY version of Chamberlain is preposterous.

Looking over this thread, you've got some real heavy ISH hitters just beating you down. You should prolly go do something else because it's looking bad for you in here

[aj1987]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lugsj9M2gU1qm9rypo1_1280.jpg
This is one seriously cool ass picture! If you have a larger one, I just might make it my wallpaper!

Post some more, dude!

[jongib369]

This is one seriously cool ass picture! If you have a larger one, I just might make it my wallpaper!

Post some more, dude!


They need more from that angle, can't find a bigger one sorry. I'll see if Michael Bay took any more photos of NBA games


http://oi58.tinypic.com/517p5e.jpg


http://www.kskscollectibles.com/Upload/Products/LOWRES/93793d49-195d-422a-ba23-6beaefe32628.jpg


http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1202/classic.ucla.basketball.photos/images/0.Lew.Alcindor.hook.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1003/nba.toughest.records.to.break/images/wilt-chamberlain.jpg


http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1204/nba-classic-kareem-abdul-jabbar/images/1982.7601Final.jpg


http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/dam/assets/140306092600-1994-shaquille-o-neal-charles-barkley-017060985-single-image-cut.jpg

[Rocketswin2013]

Walton is better than any center of this era since O'Neal. It's really not even close. I'd take him over D Rob every day and 10x more in a playoffs game.

I understand era bias, I've got some myself. But it's ludicrous to say stuff like that when you've probably watched less than 10 minutes of Walton's career. Same thing with Cowens.
Howard better than ANY version of Chamberlain is preposterous.

Looking over this thread, you've got some real heavy ISH hitters just beating you down. You should prolly go do something else because it's looking bad for you in here
I haven't been in this thread. Glad I found thi though. If there's anything worth replying to I will do it.

[Rocketswin2013]

Wait....Did you just try to even IMPLY COWENS WAS BETTER THAN DWIGHT HOWARD? LOL!

[LAZERUSS]

Wait....Did you just try to even IMPLY COWENS WAS BETTER THAN DWIGHT HOWARD? LOL!

Question. Did you SEE Cowens play? Have you EVER taken the time to watch what little footage exists of him on YouTube, like game seven of the '74 Finals, when he outplayed KAREEM? The same Cowens who won an MVP in '73, and led his team to a 68-14 record, and who would lead teams to TWO titles in his career?

He would have run Howard ragged, and then stomped on his tired and worn out ass in the 4th quarters.

[Helix]

You're so delusional. It's frightening. How bad does it pain you that you know what you said is not even close to being true even though you want it to be?


No, you're the one who's delusional. I'd take Cowens over Howard ANYDAY. Simply put, he was a much better basketball player than Howard.

[LAZERUSS]

You're so delusional. It's frightening. How bad does it pain you that you know what you said is not even close to being true even though you want it to be?

Can you post Howard's Finals stats?

42.6 mpg, 15.4 ppg, 15.2 rpg, 2.2 apg, .488 eFG%, .603 FT%, .562 TS%...in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .496.

Wow!

[La Frescobaldi]

Wait....Did you just try to even IMPLY COWENS WAS BETTER THAN DWIGHT HOWARD? LOL!
Yeah.

[jongib369]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/d/d3/Artis_Gilmore_-_Arimo_Bologna.jpg


It looks like a grown ass man playing with a toddlers ball :biggums:

[GimmeThat]

what Kareem is to Hakeem
is what Artis Gilmore is to Mutombo?


I have no clue, I don't know enough about Artis Gilmore
But I suspect he might be able to defend Shaq just as effective as Mutombo


okay okay, Michael Jackson is still the most known person on earth.

[jongib369]

what Kareem is to Hakeem
is what Artis Gilmore is to Mutombo?


I have no clue, I don't know enough about Artis Gilmore
But I suspect he might be able to defend Shaq just as effective as Mutombo


okay okay, Michael Jackson is still the most known person on earth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1xqwh7PE4I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brh2kIvgFcw

[jongib369]

Do you think he could stop Shaq from getting deep position? I'd liken Gilmore to David Robinson in terms of physique and strength. Neither were particularly heavy for the C position but both were unbelievably strong. In this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azagH-9rRlE) (Rookie Shaq vs 4th year D-Rob), Shaq gets good post position on him a few times.
Loving the video so far, haven't watched it in full yet though. I do think Artis could on occasion give Shaq problems, and he's actually bigger than Robinson so he has an edge there....But Shaq is going to get his positioning when he wants on anyone not named Wilt Chamberlain. And even then he's definitely going to get his likely shooting at or above 50%.

[Dro]

[QUOTE=jongib369]http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/legends/artis-gilmore/artis-gilmore-300a.jpg


http://youtu.be/gf6ABWKQ65w


"If I were to have had the opportunity to face Shaq I would work to prevent him from catching the ball on the box near the basket. That would mean using physical strength to force him to catch the ball further away from the basket, and to make him use more energies on all attempts to receive the ball on offense. Many centers simply don

[aj1987]

[QUOTE=jongib369]
"If I were to have had the opportunity to face Shaq I would work to prevent him from catching the ball on the box near the basket. That would mean using physical strength to force him to catch the ball further away from the basket, and to make him use more energies on all attempts to receive the ball on offense. Many centers simply don

[oarabbus]

:oldlol:

Yeah, and peak West would still be a 30/5/8 player. :oldlol:

Uhhhh.... yeah, probably.

[aj1987]

Uhhhh.... yeah, probably.

Yeah, no. At best, he would be a 18/4/5 player. At his peak.

[jongib369]

:oldlol:

Yeah, and peak West would still be a 30/5/8 player. :oldlol:
You don't think someone that big and strong along with the caliber of player that he was could give Shaq problems?

The guy retired just a few years before Shaq came into the league

:roll:

[aj1987]

You don't think someone that big and strong along with the caliber of player that he was could give Shaq problems?

The guy retired just a few years before Shaq came into the league

:roll:
How many players actually "stopped" Shaq? Shaq is literally one of the 4-5 players in the league's history, who could not be "stopped".

[jongib369]

How many players actually "stopped" Shaq? Shaq is literally one of the 4-5 players in the league's history, who could not be "stopped".
Well I don't think he meant he'd stop Shaq, but rather with his own size and strength be able to hold him back physically more so than anyone else he went against....Kinda like how Russell would sprint up and down the court trying to tire out Chamberlain... The added effort would likely cause problems, especially as the game plays out. But as I said in a different post Shaq is going to get the positioning he wants against anyone not named Wilt rather easily.

[iznogood]

The thing is though, in today's game, they call fouls on the defender for trying to push the defender off the block...You can't push too hard or they call a foul...Or the defender flops and a foul is called..Now Shaq is no flopper but still...
I think there's much more contact allowed today when players are battling for the position on the block. Pushing a player when he already established a position was always considering a foul, but today referees allow much more contact then what they used to. We also rarely see charges in this situation (unless the offensive player is extending arm to push the defender away) and there use to be tons of charges called in situation like that back in the days.

[Round Mound]

70s Centers > 10s Centeres!