Smart/Randle/Vonleh/McDermott

[fpliii]

In case we don't move up in the draft or trade the pick, we're gonna be picking between these four dudes. Anybody who's watched a lot of the four of them care to compare them? How would you rank them 1-4 if you're the Lakers FO?

[raprap]

Talent/potential

1. Vonleh (extremely long and likes to play inside)
2. Randle (talented athlete. Could present mismatches if he improves his ball handling)
3. Smart ( plays with passion and has nba ready body)
4. McDermott (stretch 4 in the nba imo.)

Fit for the lakers

1. Vonleh
2. Smart
3. Randle
4. McDermott.

[fpliii]

Talent/potential

1. Vonleh (extremely long and likes to play inside)
2. Randle (talented athlete. Could present mismatches if he improves his ball handling)
3. Smart ( plays with passion and has nba ready body)
4. McDermott (stretch 4 in the nba imo.)

Fit for the lakers

1. Vonleh
2. Smart
3. Randle
4. McDermott.
thx

[Nastradamus]

I think it will come down to Vonleh or Smart for the Lakers. I think Smart would be the priority. Get a PG in place and go from there. The only thing is, Lowry and Bledsoe might be some of their main FA targets, so they might go Vonleh. Vonlehy is raw, but he's athletic and can defend and rebound. Should come around offensively.

[KyrieTheFuture]

I don't like Smart at ALL but hey, I'm not a pro at this

[chocolatethunder]

In case we don't move up in the draft or trade the pick, we're gonna be picking between these four dudes. Anybody who's watched a lot of the four of them care to compare them? How would you rank them 1-4 if you're the Lakers FO?
I'm not into ranking players so I'm not going to do that. I'll just tell you what I think of their games and you can make your own opinion.

Smart-everyone seems to love him and I like him more than I did but I'm not sold on him. He measured better at the combine and has maybe a 6'8" wingspan which really helps him on defense. He's a very hard worker. He's not the fastest dude and I think that he scored lower on his lane agility than McDermott did but that doesn't really mean a bunch. He's not a good shooter at all and he returned to school to work on PG skills but he actually had a better year last year. He's not a real PG to me but he does have the work ethic to be one but it's really hard to make yourself into a passer. To me I see him as a really good defender and good player but never a star. Maybe a bench player. Maybe he could lead a good team maybe not. I want to stress that I'm in the minority on him and everyone else loves him.

Randle-I didn't like him but I've come around. He's a good rebounder and actually has post moves. He's not the fastest, and hes not a stretch four but he def can get it done on the block. He's also very young but extremely strong already. His wingspan isn't giant but it's not as bad as people thought and he has a 35" vert and for a guy his size that's good. I like him not as a superstar but as a really solid starter eventually like 18 and 10ish dude.

Vonleh-This guy has huge hands and a giant wingspan and a 37" vert. He has the most potential of all of these guys and he's really young. He can already shoot well and is a good athlete. He could be really good, like all start good or he could just end up being solid. The only thing I question is that he seems a little laid back. That's not usually something you can teach. He's just not that aggressive at times. Lots of potential.

McDermott-Ok, like most white guys who were good in college you almost automatically have to think that they're just not going to be good pros. I initially thought that of McDermott but I don't think that of him anymore. He had a 36.5" vert and scored great on the lane agility drill. He can also get off his own shot and has a quick release. He can score in a bunch of ways including on the block. He's gonna have to play the 3 and while he doesn't seem athletic enough to stick the good 3's in the league, who really is? No one is stopping durant. McDermott is an extremely hard worker and is smart enough to be a good team defender. His game is a lot more complete than Korver's was coming out of Creighton and he's just as good a shooter. I don't see him as an all star but he could start or def come off the bench and in his best year average 15ppg.

That being said, any one of these dudes could be a total bust or any of them could surprise us and be so much better than anyone thinks. There's no one in this draft who is a sure fire superstar to me but I'm sure three years from now, someone from this draft will be. Also, Adriean (sp?) Payne is as good as any power forward in the draft. He can shoot and rebound and he's athletic as hell. He's going to get drafted at 17 because he's 23. If he was 19 he would be drafted in the top 5. Maybe his upside is less than these dudes but someone will be very happy picking him at 17.

[no pun intended]

Marcus Smart. No question.

"Marcus Smart's lane agility time of 10.82 is faster than John Wall (10.84), Russell Westbrook (10.98) and Chris Paul (11.09) Smart is a going to be a beast in the league. A 6'4 225 lb pg that runs just as fast as the small 200 lb pg's. He's going to be a matchup nightmare especially driving in the lane."

mother of god.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Was the lottery held already?

Who is number 1?

[no pun intended]

Was the lottery held already?

Who is number 1?
It's tomorrow.

[Rubio2Gasol]

So what's the point of this :lol?

[fpliii]

So what's the point of this :lol?
Because there's a 78.5% chance the Lakers don't jump into the top 3? :confusedshrug:

Just trying to get myself hyped about these guys since it's likely one of them will be on the team.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Because there's a 78.5% chance the Lakers don't jump into the top 3? :confusedshrug:

Just trying to get myself hyped about these guys since it's likely one of them will be on the team.

Even so...things could go any way.

Anyway, why not Aaron Gordon? :coleman: I fail to see why anyone would take the 6'8 unathletic white guy. Hoping he's the new Peja :confusedshrug: Unlikely :lol

[fpliii]

Even so...things could go any way.

Anyway, why not Aaron Gordon? :coleman:
I don't know enough about him. He was in my school's conference, but I watch very little college ball.

Another name I haven't heard much about in awhile is LaVine, I remember him getting some hype earlier this year.

[Rubio2Gasol]

I don't know much about these guys. I'm just looking at ages really. He's 18 and a great athlete. You hope he ends up somewhere with good coaches....otherwise he'll just end up another scrub.

Once they're not getting Embid or Wiggins, Lakers should just trade the pick and along with Paul in a sign and trade for Kevin Love.

[ImKobe]

1. Randle
2. Smart
3. Vonleh
4. McDermott

Randle & Smart are the most nba-ready, Vonleh IMO is a poor man's Chris Bosh.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Even so...things could go any way.

Anyway, why not Aaron Gordon? :coleman: I fail to see why anyone would take the 6'8 unathletic white guy. Hoping he's the new Peja :confusedshrug: Unlikely :lol
McDermott?

Aaron Gordon is slotted to go before him in almost every single mock

[fpliii]

I don't know much about these guys. I'm just looking at ages really. He's 18 and a great athlete. You hope he ends up somewhere with good coaches....otherwise he'll just end up another scrub.

Once they're not getting Embid or Wiggins, Lakers should just trade the pick and along with Paul in a sign and trade for Kevin Love.
So you'd trade the #3 pick if Embiid/Wiggins are off the board, if Parker and Exum are still there?

[Rubio2Gasol]

So you'd trade the #3 pick if Embiid/Wiggins are off the board, if Parker and Exum are still there?

I've watched Exum, I don't know what to make of him. Seems like a nice kid, but tbh, the skill level just isn't there.

Parker will never be as good a player as Kevin Love imo. I like him, but he seems thoroughly unathletic. I guess you could hope he becomes Paul Pierce or something, but I doubt it.

[fpliii]

I've watched Exum, I don't know what to make of him. Seems like a nice kid, but tbh, the skill level just isn't there.

Parker will never be as good a player as Kevin Love imo. I like him, but he seems thoroughly unathletic. I guess you could hope he becomes Paul Pierce or something, but I doubt it.
I'm worried about Love, now that these other teams are being mentioned in the rumors...

We've heard (in addition to LA), Golden State, Boston, Chicago, Knicks, and even Phoenix.

[JellyBean]

I would go:

Noah Vonleh: With his size, range, and expanding offensive ability, he would be a nice piece to add to the Lake Show. He could help on the defensive end. I just worry about his confidence. He struggled at Indiana being the #2 option.

McDermott: Folks are overreacting to limited combine showing and dropping his draft value. All I have to say is, don't sleep on the next Chris Mullins. This cat has a high basketball IQ an at the next level, that is a huge plus.

Randle: Randle reminds me of a Zach Randolph type of player with more athletic ability. He has a lot of potential.

Smart: No need to worry about his confidence, just worry about shot selection. He has the potential to be a really good player, like all the rest. Could be a sleeper pick.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Almost all of them would be better for him too, but I think he will come to the Lakers and I think the Lakers can offer as appealing a deal as any.

[fpliii]

Almost all of them would be better for him too, but I think he will come to the Lakers and I think the Lakers can offer as appealing a deal as any.
So you think they'd go for a pick + Gasol (in a sign and trade)? Just at the 3, or even if it's 6th-9th?

[Pointguard]

Talent/potential
Fit for the lakers

1. Vonleh
2. Smart
3. Randle
4. McDermott.

Exactly the way I see it. I also like Chocolate Thunder's post above.

Smart is the hardest to really say - He could be a star or tweener that starts and only have burst of good games. McDermott is a nice fit for a team with three other solid pieces already in line.

[Rubio2Gasol]

So you think they'd go for a pick + Gasol (in a sign and trade)? Just at the 3, or even if it's 6th-9th?

Yup, alot of the moves they've made have been about building an international brand and I think they're one of the few teams in the league who will be willing to take on Pau for a couple years.

Other teams like Chicago and Golden State could put together decent packages too, but not as marketbale players.

[longtime lurker]

In case we don't move up in the draft or trade the pick, we're gonna be picking between these four dudes. Anybody who's watched a lot of the four of them care to compare them? How would you rank them 1-4 if you're the Lakers FO?

I've always found the best way to draft in the lottery is to go BPA. That being said you also draft for how that player's game will translate to the league, not what they did in college. Lakers have tons of holes to fill, but I think Smart is probably the best choice here. It's a perimeter league now and Kobe will handle the ball so much that they don't need Smart to be a true PG. Vonleh seems like a guy that's too much of a project, Mcdermott sounds like a tweener, great pick later on but not a lottery pick and Randle from everything I've read could be limited by his lack of athleticism

[fatboy11]

McDermott: Folks are overreacting to limited combine showing and dropping his draft value. All I have to say is, don't sleep on the next Chris Mullins. This cat has a high basketball IQ an at the next level, that is a huge plus.

What are you talking about? Who is dropping him because of his combine testing? Anything I've read has been extremely positive about his athletic testing. I know it definitely changed my perception of him in a positive way. Still, not sure he's a top 10 pick. You tend to need to get a player with All-Star potential there, and I see McDermott as more of a Kyle Korver/Mike Miller type. I would take him with no hesitation at the end of the lottery and in the mid-first round, but I'd be nervous taking him in the top 10. Don't think he'll be a bust and flame out but I'm not sure he'll live up to what you want a top 10 pick to be.

[chocolatethunder]

What are you talking about? Who is dropping him because of his combine testing? Anything I've read has been extremely positive about his athletic testing. I know it definitely changed my perception of him in a positive way. Still, not sure he's a top 10 pick. You tend to need to get a player with All-Star potential there, and I see McDermott as more of a Kyle Korver/Mike Miller type. I would take him with no hesitation at the end of the lottery and in the mid-first round, but I'd be nervous taking him in the top 10. Don't think he'll be a bust and flame out but I'm not sure he'll live up to what you want a top 10 pick to be.
Exactly. His stock went way up with his very and agility skills. He didn't shoot because everyone already knows he's a shooter. No need to do that.

[chips93]

Marcus Smart. No question.

"Marcus Smart's lane agility time of 10.82 is faster than John Wall (10.84), Russell Westbrook (10.98) and Chris Paul (11.09) Smart is a going to be a beast in the league. A 6'4 225 lb pg that runs just as fast as the small 200 lb pg's. He's going to be a matchup nightmare especially driving in the lane."

mother of god.

its also slower than carlos boozer and francisco garcia

those athletic tests at the combine are pretty close to pointless imo

[chips93]

id take vonleh

he has great tools, and even if he doesnt pan out as an offensive force, hes already a great rebounder (the best rebounder in the draft on a per minute basis), and seems to have a great motor.

so at best you have an all star, with motor on the boards who can shoot from the outside. at worst you have a garbage man who can clean up on the glass, and play good defense.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

I don't know how anyone can watch Smart and not think he will be a good starter.

He brings almost everything you want from a basketball player, without focusing on a specific position. He actually reminds me a little bit of Lance Stephenson, except trade "swag" with "leadership". Along the lines of what typically goes with those terms: Lance talks trash, passes with flair, and holds the wrist up when he *knows* his jumper is going in, while Smart plays mental games, dives for loose balls, and gets in the faces of his teammates.

I doubt he will be someone you build around, but I bet his value will be untouchable to any team he ends up on.


Vonleh still reminds me of Marvin Williams with a better motor. That's not a bad thing at all.


imo, Randle is the second or third safest pick in this draft of the top 2 tier players (behind Parker and maybe Smart). I can see 16/10 for a long time. Still needs to improve his offensive game, tho, and I'm not entirely convinced he can overpower NBA players like he did in high school and college. I also can't stand his on the court demeanor. He comes across as a real asshole, like DMC bad.


Didn't watch much of McDermott last season and stats can't be denied. You are talking about 55/45/80+ with very high usage over a 4 year career. I don't care if he's facing the YMCA rec league team every game, that's incredible.

I still come back to when he plays NBA bigs, he doesn't look all that good. Austin and Jefferson made McDermott look average. He was terrible against Kelly (on your Lakers team) and Plumlee. Average against Henson and Zeller. I think he carves a nice niche. Not sure how he defends NBA 3's or 4's, pretty sure he will have a difficult time finishing over NBA trees, and that makes him into a one dribble pull up/spot up 3pt player, imo.

[fatboy11]

I still come back to when he plays NBA bigs, he doesn't look all that good. Austin and Jefferson made McDermott look average. He was terrible against Kelly (on your Lakers team) and Plumlee. Average against Henson and Zeller. I think he carves a nice niche. Not sure how he defends NBA 3's or 4's, pretty sure he will have a difficult time finishing over NBA trees, and that makes him into a one dribble pull up/spot up 3pt player, imo.

The numbers he put up in the combine suggest he can play SF in the league.

[chocolatethunder]

I don't know how anyone can watch Smart and not think he will be a good starter.

He brings almost everything you want from a basketball player, without focusing on a specific position. He actually reminds me a little bit of Lance Stephenson, except trade "swag" with "leadership". Along the lines of what typically goes with those terms: Lance talks trash, passes with flair, and holds the wrist up when he *knows* his jumper is going in, while Smart plays mental games, dives for loose balls, and gets in the faces of his teammates.

I doubt he will be someone you build around, but I bet his value will be untouchable to any team he ends up on.


Vonleh still reminds me of Marvin Williams with a better motor. That's not a bad thing at all.


imo, Randle is the second or third safest pick in this draft of the top 2 tier players (behind Parker and maybe Smart). I can see 16/10 for a long time. Still needs to improve his offensive game, tho, and I'm not entirely convinced he can overpower NBA players like he did in high school and college. I also can't stand his on the court demeanor. He comes across as a real asshole, like DMC bad.


Didn't watch much of McDermott last season and stats can't be denied. You are talking about 55/45/80+ with very high usage over a 4 year career. I don't care if he's facing the YMCA rec league team every game, that's incredible.

I still come back to when he plays NBA bigs, he doesn't look all that good. Austin and Jefferson made McDermott look average. He was terrible against Kelly (on your Lakers team) and Plumlee. Average against Henson and Zeller. I think he carves a nice niche. Not sure how he defends NBA 3's or 4's, pretty sure he will have a difficult time finishing over NBA trees, and that makes him into a one dribble pull up/spot up 3pt player, imo.
I'll try and answer that since I don't think he'll be a great starter. I want to say that I know I'm in the minority and I hope I'm wrong because the league needs more good players.

He's not a good shooter. He's not. In spite of his lane agility score, he's never seemed super quick. He won't be able to bully people in the NBA with his strength. He is not a real PG and isn't a good enough scorer to he more of a combo guard. He's not a great or even good passer and doesn't really see the floor well. Does that mean he's gonna suck? No, because he's a good defender and is a really hard worker. That doesn't mean he'll be great either.

I wanna say one thing about McDermott and the guys who made him look average. In the NBA teams won't be gearing their defense around stopping him so he may do a better that he did as the main scorer. He may also suck but I think he'll be decent. Not a stud by any means but a solid pro.

[Pointguard]

I'll try and answer that since I don't think he'll be a great starter. I want to say that I know I'm in the minority and I hope I'm wrong because the league needs more good players.

He's not a good shooter. He's not. In spite of his lane agility score, he's never seemed super quick. He won't be able to bully people in the NBA with his strength. He is not a real PG and isn't a good enough scorer to he more of a combo guard. He's not a great or even good passer and doesn't really see the floor well. Does that mean he's gonna suck? No, because he's a good defender and is a really hard worker. That doesn't mean he'll be great either.

I wanna say one thing about McDermott and the guys who made him look average. In the NBA teams won't be gearing their defense around stopping him so he may do a better that he did as the main scorer. He may also suck but I think he'll be decent. Not a stud by any means but a solid pro.

I agree with most of what you wrote. But I think Smart is more of a point guard than Westbrook was coming out. And should be able to bully shooting guards with his build, much less point guards. He's a bit bigger than Lance Stephenson who bullies shooting guards. I have no idea about how will handle point guard speed and quickness as you do. And yeah I don't see him scoring like Eric Gordon or Monta Ellis but he's definitely more of a point guard than they were. He does have better focus and tenacity than those guys do. He's a real hard figure.

[Bob Dole]

I will not be surprised if Marcus Smart is the best player out of this draft and will definitely be one of the 3 best.

Trust me, I'm very good at this when it comes to perimeter players.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

The numbers he put up in the combine suggest he can play SF in the league.

Well I'm not worried about McDermott offensively too much. If you have size and can shoot, you will find a place in the NBA. He can shoot. My expectations that he will have trouble finishing around the paint would probably limit his offensive upside (if you think he's a mid-high teens, maybe 20+ player?). I don't know how many players can score that much with pullups and 3pters, unless you are Melo, and he won't get that many shot attempts. Probably. Obviously I'm assuming he won't be a #1 option.

Not convinced he will be able to guard NBA 3s. Wilson Chandler is an average SF in the NBA and I think he would eat McDermott alive on that end. We will see, tho. I haven't payed much attention to McDermott's defense in my limited viewings of him.


I'll try and answer that since I don't think he'll be a great starter. I want to say that I know I'm in the minority and I hope I'm wrong because the league needs more good players.

He's not a good shooter. He's not. In spite of his lane agility score, he's never seemed super quick. He won't be able to bully people in the NBA with his strength. He is not a real PG and isn't a good enough scorer to he more of a combo guard. He's not a great or even good passer and doesn't really see the floor well. Does that mean he's gonna suck? No, because he's a good defender and is a really hard worker. That doesn't mean he'll be great either.

I wanna say one thing about McDermott and the guys who made him look average. In the NBA teams won't be gearing their defense around stopping him so he may do a better that he did as the main scorer. He may also suck but I think he'll be decent. Not a stud by any means but a solid pro.

Right, I understand Smart's limitations. His lacking elite quickness is why I can't see him ever being a franchise player. I think he's a borderline #2/#3, kind of similiar my perception of Kawhi Leonard's eventual offensive ceiling (2/3, leaning a little to 2, imo). Also I think he's a SG. I realize a lot of NBA teams are looking at him as a PG, but he will learn or they will learn. He's a guard and not having a definitive position doesn't worry me. A combo guard in a good way.

Your concern of his jumper is valid, and PG ability if he plays PG. Although he will never be a true PG and I don't think teams will ever use him as one (which is an increasing trend in the NBA), so it shouldn't be too much of a problem for the latter. He needs to clean up his handle and I think turnovers will be a problem early on. I see him living at the line, tho. His combination of strength, passing, and knowing how to draw fouls will translate well to the NBA on his drives. That should buy him enough time to figure out how else he can score. Defensively and the intangibles are all there already.

I honestly see the Joakim Noah of guards when I watch Smart. His value usually exceeds his production, he has a unusually effective skillset, and he impacts games without scoring. That's where Noah's value is, imo, and what Smart brings to the table. Now he needs to improve like Noah did, but the potential and similar type of value to a basketball team is there.

[bballnoob1192]

i like smart, but PGs don't win championships in this league. i'd rather draft vonleh

[hawksdogsbraves]

I will not be surprised if Marcus Smart is the best player out of this draft and will definitely be one of the 3 best.

Trust me, I'm very good at this when it comes to perimeter players.

What makes you think that? Guy shot 42%fg and less than 30% from 3. He also seems to be a bit of a headcase.

He has a lot of work to do if he wants to break into the top 20 PG's in the league right now. Not saying he can't do it, but nothing in his college career shouts 'star' to me.

Kid has good size, that's really about it.

[chocolatethunder]

I agree with most of what you wrote. But I think Smart is more of a point guard than Westbrook was coming out. And should be able to bully shooting guards with his build, much less point guards. He's a bit bigger than Lance Stephenson who bullies shooting guards. I have no idea about how will handle point guard speed and quickness as you do. And yeah I don't see him scoring like Eric Gordon or Monta Ellis but he's definitely more of a point guard than they were. He does have better focus and tenacity than those guys do. He's a real hard figure.

I dunno man I just don't see it. I feel like those dudes are gonna blow by him. He doesn't have the speed to get around them and he doesn't have the jumper to be able to get them to D him up tight. I guess I just don't see the PG skills for him. I'm probably wrong, since everyone else thinks he's going to be great. I think Stephenson is 6'5" and Smart is 6' 3 1/4" so Smart may be wider than him but he's not taller. Either way, it's really hard to tell with him.

[Pointguard]

I dunno man I just don't see it. I feel like those dudes are gonna blow by him. He doesn't have the speed to get around them and he doesn't have the jumper to be able to get them to D him up tight. I guess I just don't see the PG skills for him. I'm probably wrong, since everyone else thinks he's going to be great. I think Stephenson is 6'5" and Smart is 6' 3 1/4" so Smart may be wider than him but he's not taller. Either way, it's really hard to tell with him.
I enjoyed all of your comments above.

We both agree he's a hard guess and it will boil down to a coach who will try to use him in different ways. But I think there is enough ball in Smart to make it work. I have no idea what his ceiling might be or even an optimal situation. He's going to have to be his own player. Mark Jackson was slow and big and he ended up being better than Kenny Smith and Kenny Anderson both had way better projections after the first year in college. Both Kennys were lightening bolts. Its a matter of a coach willing to work with Smart.

[crawdaddy4ou]

Smart will not be that great. He's lazy and overrated. Mark my word.

[plowking]

1. Randle
2. Smart
3. Vonleh
4. McDermott

Randle & Smart are the most nba-ready, Vonleh IMO is a poor man's Chris Bosh.

Vonleh is only 18, will most likely play at 265lbs after a season in the NBA, and plays nothing like Bosh.

I'd go with Vonley or Randle if I was the Lakers. Vonleh in particular will be a special player due to his physical attributes. Plus he is a big man that is reliable at the line.

[crawdaddy4ou]

I hope Lakers take Smart.

[chocolatethunder]

Vonleh is only 18, will most likely play at 265lbs after a season in the NBA, and plays nothing like Bosh.

I'd go with Vonley or Randle if I was the Lakers. Vonleh in particular will be a special player due to his physical attributes. Plus he is a big man that is reliable at the line.
I like Vonleh's potential for sure but he doesn't have a lot of fire in him and that worries me. He could be awesome but he could also just be ok. He's so young it's hard to tell. He's a good shooter and I'm sorry but he reminds me of Bosh too. Shooting from the outside and his build (he's not as thin as bosh was but they are similar and both have those long necks haha)

[chocolatethunder]

Well I'm not worried about McDermott offensively too much. If you have size and can shoot, you will find a place in the NBA. He can shoot. My expectations that he will have trouble finishing around the paint would probably limit his offensive upside (if you think he's a mid-high teens, maybe 20+ player?). I don't know how many players can score that much with pullups and 3pters, unless you are Melo, and he won't get that many shot attempts. Probably. Obviously I'm assuming he won't be a #1 option.

Not convinced he will be able to guard NBA 3s. Wilson Chandler is an average SF in the NBA and I think he would eat McDermott alive on that end. We will see, tho. I haven't payed much attention to McDermott's defense in my limited viewings of him.



Right, I understand Smart's limitations. His lacking elite quickness is why I can't see him ever being a franchise player. I think he's a borderline #2/#3, kind of similiar my perception of Kawhi Leonard's eventual offensive ceiling (2/3, leaning a little to 2, imo). Also I think he's a SG. I realize a lot of NBA teams are looking at him as a PG, but he will learn or they will learn. He's a guard and not having a definitive position doesn't worry me. A combo guard in a good way.

Your concern of his jumper is valid, and PG ability if he plays PG. Although he will never be a true PG and I don't think teams will ever use him as one (which is an increasing trend in the NBA), so it shouldn't be too much of a problem for the latter. He needs to clean up his handle and I think turnovers will be a problem early on. I see him living at the line, tho. His combination of strength, passing, and knowing how to draw fouls will translate well to the NBA on his drives. That should buy him enough time to figure out how else he can score. Defensively and the intangibles are all there already.

I honestly see the Joakim Noah of guards when I watch Smart. His value usually exceeds his production, he has a unusually effective skillset, and he impacts games without scoring. That's where Noah's value is, imo, and what Smart brings to the table. Now he needs to improve like Noah did, but the potential and similar type of value to a basketball team is there.
I'm not seeing Smart as Leonard in any way. Leonard has the athleticism and crazy length and hands as upsode and Smart has none of that. He didn't even really improve this year. His stock probably dropped. I hear what you're saying about him and Noah but smarts skillset is so limited. It's like all he has is hustle and work ethic. He's too slow and short to be a two. I don't care how strong he is. His jumper is so shitty that NBA twos will sag off of him and dare him to shoot. Good hustle player and prob a great guard off the bench for defense as a combo guard but not a scorer or offensive player to me. And like I said before, I'm probably wrong because I feel like I'm the only dude saying this. I see his ceiling as low because he didny improve a lot and there's nothing spectacular about him. Stauskas is more intriguing to me because he can shoot and he improved a ton. Don't get me wrong, I'm not high on Stauskas, I'm just using him as an example to show how apprehensive I about smart. And again, anyone who picks Adrien (sp?) Paybe at 17 will get a steal because of his age. If he was 19 he'd go in the top 5. He can already shoot and is tall and athletic. He's my sleeper. Won't ever be a star but could be a really solid dude. He's been playing with mono since January.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

I didn't compare him to Leonard as a player, merely as an offensive option (a #2/#3 ceiling). Sorry if I wasn't clear.

6-3 is a little short for the 2 (although nowadays no one blinks at 6-4 guards... Beal, Wade, Waiters, etc), but having a 6-9+ wingspan makes up for that. Length > Height in terms of impact on both ends. He potentially ends up a PG anyway, which then his measurements are great.

I don't know why you keep saying he hasn't improved FG, 3pt (on more attempts), scoring, rebounding, assists are all up from his freshman year. Turnovers went down as well, while steals and blocks remained essentially the same. He probably didn't take that next step some thought he might, but he definitely improved. Also he's obviously one of those stats don't tell the whole story players. Clearly he's better than his stats, and his stats aren't too bad, other than his fg and 3pt percentage.

I don't know if you think I think I'm saying he will be a star. I don't. Again: one of the top 2 or 3 safest picks in the draft as far as lottery picks are concerned, #2/#3 offensive option, and a legitimate championship piece.

We will see, tho. Admittedly I watched Smart since highschool and I'm a bit of a fan.

[hawksdogsbraves]

Well I'm not worried about McDermott offensively too much. If you have size and can shoot, you will find a place in the NBA. He can shoot. My expectations that he will have trouble finishing around the paint would probably limit his offensive upside (if you think he's a mid-high teens, maybe 20+ player?). I don't know how many players can score that much with pullups and 3pters, unless you are Melo, and he won't get that many shot attempts. Probably. Obviously I'm assuming he won't be a #1 option.

Not convinced he will be able to guard NBA 3s. Wilson Chandler is an average SF in the NBA and I think he would eat McDermott alive on that end. We will see, tho. I haven't payed much attention to McDermott's defense in my limited viewings of him.



Right, I understand Smart's limitations. His lacking elite quickness is why I can't see him ever being a franchise player. I think he's a borderline #2/#3, kind of similiar my perception of Kawhi Leonard's eventual offensive ceiling (2/3, leaning a little to 2, imo). Also I think he's a SG. I realize a lot of NBA teams are looking at him as a PG, but he will learn or they will learn. He's a guard and not having a definitive position doesn't worry me. A combo guard in a good way.

Your concern of his jumper is valid, and PG ability if he plays PG. Although he will never be a true PG and I don't think teams will ever use him as one (which is an increasing trend in the NBA), so it shouldn't be too much of a problem for the latter. He needs to clean up his handle and I think turnovers will be a problem early on. I see him living at the line, tho. His combination of strength, passing, and knowing how to draw fouls will translate well to the NBA on his drives. That should buy him enough time to figure out how else he can score. Defensively and the intangibles are all there already.

I honestly see the Joakim Noah of guards when I watch Smart. His value usually exceeds his production, he has a unusually effective skillset, and he impacts games without scoring. That's where Noah's value is, imo, and what Smart brings to the table. Now he needs to improve like Noah did, but the potential and similar type of value to a basketball team is there.

The 'Joakim Noah of guards' :roll:

What does that mean? How the hell does his value exceed his production?

He 'led' a team that was top 15 preseason, got suspended for a bunch of games for fighting a FAN, watched them nearly miss the tourney, and then lost in the first round to an average Gonzaga team in a game that wasn't even close.

This all after he returned to college to complete his 'unfinished business'.

He's not like Noah at all, literally nothing he's done in his career warrants that comparison. To the contrary, his college career paints him as a BAD leader and a BAD teammate.

Yeah he impacts games without scoring, he impacts them NEGATIVELY.

So he's a shooting guard who can't shoot at all? Good luck with that. Whoever drafts him is going to be kicking themselves, (and probably get fired to boot).

[Combat Wombat]

Vonleh for me:
- Has a mid range game and can also shoot from the three
- Solid defender
- Very good rebounder
- Big wingspan


Randle is a more athletic version of Zach Randolph with worse defense.

[hawksdogsbraves]

Vonleh for me:
- Has a mid range game and can also shoot from the three
- Solid defender
- Very good rebounder
- Big wingspan


Randle is a more athletic version of Zach Randolph with worse defense.

Vonleh is definitely the hot name right now. Most upside for sure.

I feel like Randle could go for like 17/10 his rookie year though and everyone just wonders what we were thinking.

[Combat Wombat]

Vonleh is definitely the hot name right now. Most upside for sure.

I feel like Randle could go for like 17/10 his rookie year though and everyone just wonders what we were thinking.

Randle will put up good numbers but Vonleh has far more potential.

Forgot to mention that Vonleh already has a pretty good post-game.

As a Lakers fan, I'd draft Vonleh if we can't get Wiggins, Parker, Exum or Embiid.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

The 'Joakim Noah of guards' :roll:

What does that mean? How the hell does his value exceed his production?
Floor burns, hedging, being able to contain mismatches on switches, creating mismatches and missed rotations on offense, motor, all the intangible stuff (defensive and offensive communication, leadership, etc). I'm sure you understand not everything can be illustrated in a box score. Noah does all that stuff collectively better than possibly any player in the NBA right now. imo, Smart does it exceptionally well. That's what I meant by his value exceeding his production.


He 'led' a team that was top 15 preseason, got suspended for a bunch of games for fighting a FAN, watched them nearly miss the tourney, and then lost in the first round to an average Gonzaga team in a game that wasn't even close.

This all after he returned to college to complete his 'unfinished business'.

Preseason rankings in college basketball means nothing. I'm a UNC fan and we almost always get too much hype because of the name brand. I remember in 2010, hearing from people at the practices that the practices were the most "basic" they have seen since Roy has been back, uncertain wing and pg situation, and whatever. Coming after losing 6 of the top 7 rotation players... And there they were, ranked #6 in the preaseason. Oklahoma State got their hype because they were returning one of perceived preseason NPOY candidates, along with some other quality players. Make no mistake, though, the ranking was on the perception of Smart.

And the Gonzaga game was a pretty good window at what Smart does well and what he needs to work on. 23 points, 13 rebounds, 7 assists, 6 steals, 19 free throw attempts. 1-5 from 3 and 6 turnovers.

I have already acknowledged that he has some clear faults.


He's not like Noah at all, literally nothing he's done in his career warrants that comparison. To the contrary, his college career paints him as a BAD leader and a BAD teammate.

Yeah he impacts games without scoring, he impacts them NEGATIVELY.

So he's a shooting guard who can't shoot at all? Good luck with that. Whoever drafts him is going to be kicking themselves, (and probably get fired to boot).

Meh the other two paragraphs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

The latter (sg who can't shoot) I already addressed.

Again, we will see. Never said he would be star. A safe pick and a legitimate championship piece.

[hawksdogsbraves]

Floor burns, hedging, being able to contain mismatches on switches, creating mismatches and missed rotations on offense, motor, all the intangible stuff (defensive and offensive communication, leadership, etc). I'm sure you understand not everything can be illustrated in a box score. Noah does all that stuff collectively better than possibly any player in the NBA right now. imo, Smart does it exceptionally well. That's what I meant by his value exceeding his production.



Preseason rankings in college basketball means nothing. I'm a UNC fan and we almost always get too much hype because of the name brand. I remember in 2010, hearing from people at the practices that the practices were the most "basic" they have seen since Roy has been back, uncertain wing and pg situation, and whatever. Coming after losing 6 of the top 7 rotation players... And there they were, ranked #6 in the preaseason. Oklahoma State got their hype because they were returning one of perceived preseason NPOY candidates, along with some other quality players. Make no mistake, though, the ranking was on the perception of Smart.

And the Gonzaga game was a pretty good window at what Smart does well and what he needs to work on. 23 points, 13 rebounds, 7 assists, 6 steals, 19 free throw attempts. 1-5 from 3 and 6 turnovers.

I have already acknowledged that he has some clear faults.



Meh the other two paragraphs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

The latter (sg who can't shoot) I already addressed.

Again, we will see. Never said he would be star. A safe pick and a legitimate championship piece.

As for the Noah stuff, you could be right. Nobody ever accused Smart of not hustling. However guards simply cannot effect the game defensively as much as a center, regardless of how many floor burns he gets.

OK State's hype was completely deserved coming into the season. Anyone who follows college basketball would call them one of the season's biggest disappointments. They lost essentially nobody from a 24 win team in 2013 and had an all american candidate for a leader. Started top 10 in the coach's poll. This was a team with Final 4 if not National Championship expectations. Their preseason ranking was based on a perception of Smart, and their fall from grace should also effect the perception of him.

I don't think it's an argument from ignorance to say he has character issues.

From Chad Ford:
Smart's interviews were a mixed bag, however. While teams love the passion he brings to the table, they believe his explanation of what happened earlier this past season, when he lost his temper on several occasions, was vague.

Obviously we won't know til next season how he pans out, (or maybe several seasons after) but I see too many red flags to be considered 'safe pick' or a 'legitimate championship piece' (whatever that means).

[D-FENS]

Smart
Randle
Vonleh
McDermott

You have them ranked correctly already

[senelcoolidge]

McDermott is going to Minnesota. Randle is short with small hands so he might be a good pick for the lakers. Vonleh could be decent, but he's not a difference maker. Smart could do well on a bad team like the lakers.

[MavsPoke]

OSU fan here. Watched Smart for 2 years.

I don't know if he will be worthy of a Top 5 pick. I just don't know how he will play offensively. He could be great to adequate.

I will say though on the perimeter defensive end you won't find anyone better college or NBA except maybe Tony Allen.

But that doesn't make a Top 5 pick. If he can get his jumper to go you might have something great. But it was so sporadic in college...

Offensively, I want to compare him to Westbrook/Wade but he's no where near obviously. Could he potentially be there? I don't know... that's a lot of wishful thinking.

Defensively, I always have compared him to Tony Allen (same school and all and I watched them both play.) I think he is better than Tony was coming out of college. If you watch a full game and see his defensive impact I promise you will be blown away. We literally had no center at all last year once Cobbins went down and that's when things fell apart. But still playing 4 guard line ups Smart was a terror.

If my Mavs had a Top 5 pick I don't know if I would take him. Its an offensive league and the PG position runs the offense. You see what the Thunder look like with Westbrook as the PG? I wouldn't want that with my Mavs. Maybe in the right system with a great coach he would become a great PG, but in college with our crappy coach and our crappy offense he didn't show me that much as a playmaker. But in a league with Westbrook and Parker and Wall and Rose, etc if you want a perimeter defender that can actually keep these guys out of the lane then Smart is your man.

Found a great video on Smarts Defense:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhBbhM-oyXI