Kevin Durant in the playoffs: 31.1 PPG, 9.5 Reb, 4.5 AST, 45.8% FG, 4.1 TO

[J Shuttlesworth]

His numbers seem good on the surface, but I don't see him impacting the game in ways that other players who put up similar numbers did. He IS playing 44 MPG, so his stats might be a little inflated. Per 36, he's 25/7.7/3.5, compared to LeBron per 36: 25.8/6.8/4.3 (56% FG though)

I felt like even prime Kobe had a much higher impact even playing as the second option on the Shaq/Kobe lakers. When he wasn't scoring, Kobe was a good passer, and also played solid perimeter defense. I can hardly notice Kevin Durant is playing unless he has the ball/taking a shot. I mean not to jack the term from Kobe stans, but he definitely plays within the flow of the game, and doesn't really have the ability to dictate tempo/play making or defense too. LeBron will often spark the teams energy w/ a steal or defensive play leading to a fast break and those plays change the energy of the whole game.

I guess what I'm really asking is if Durant's numbers are expressive of his actual impact on the floor or not.

[Cocaine80s]

0 impact outside of scoring.

He needs to work on his passing this offseason.


Also needs to eat more

[Jacks3]

lol @ "even'' Kobe. Kobe is one of the best all-around players in history.


smh ignorant ass cheat fans.

[lakerspng]

clear case where numbers can be deceiving. KD has not dominated like those numbers would suggest.

and yes, Kobe most certainly was a far better playmaker and defender... and I would attribute his impact for the 3-peat Lakers and that team's success as much to his playmaking and defensive ability, as his scoring. Even though at times his scoring outbursts put other teams in the grave.

[inclinerator]

lower after tonight's game

-smak

[Artillery]

45% shooting. No shame in that KD. Your worst shooting season would be a good year for Kobe.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Anybody who has actually watched the games can see that LeBron has been much better than KD in the playoffs.

[Milbuck]

"even" prime Kobe?

Good god this place is ridiculous sometimes.

[riseagainst]

lol @ "even" prime kobe.

:oldlol:

so many retards on this forum.

[inclinerator]

to be fair shaq kobe wasnt prime kobe

-smak

[Milbuck]

to be fair shaq kobe wasnt prime kobe

-smak2001 Kobe put up 29/7/6/2/1 on 56% TS, with elite perimeter defense.

Absolutely trashed the Spurs in the Conference Finals for 33/7/7/2/1 on 57% TS.

[J Shuttlesworth]

"even" prime Kobe?

Good god this place is ridiculous sometimes.
I'm not trying to talk shit on Kobe's all around game. I just think it's interesting that Kobe had a much stronger impact in the game even when Shaq is taking 25 shots in the paint a game. Imagine Durant in place of Kobe on the Lakers. They wouldn't have a good ability to set up other teammates, or play elite perimeter defense.

That's why I said "even prime Kobe w/ Shaq", and not just "even prime Kobe"... but there are some Thunder fans here who were trying to say Durant > prime Kobe

[zoom17]

"even" prime Kobe?

Good god this place is ridiculous sometimes.

got worse when jan14 came robert-saw, magicman, starkerforlife and many more so stfu.

[Artillery]

I felt like even prime Kobe had a much higher impact even playing as the second option on the Shaq/Kobe lakers.

Give Durant Shaq/Gasol and Phil Jackson and you'll also see this "higher impact" from him.


When he wasn't scoring, Kobe was a good passer, and also played solid perimeter defense.

I agree that KD is an overrated defender(RAPM has him as a negative defender this year) but using Kobe as an example of a good defender? Kobe's been a negative defender for his entire career.


I can hardly notice Kevin Durant is playing unless he has the ball/taking a shot. I mean not to jack the term from Kobe stans, but he definitely plays within the flow of the game, and doesn't really have the ability to dictate tempo/play making or defense too.

How come Kobe has been unable to play "within the flow of the game" without Phil Jackson? Couldn't adapt to a D'Antoni offense, or play defense under a Mike Brown system. Couldn't make the playoffs under Rudy Tomjanovich or Frank Hamblen. Was a horrible player when he played for Del Harris and Rambis. Kobe's doesn't understand how to adapt his game to suit other playing styles. He needs the triangle in order to be effective. A system player. Durant has not had the benefit of playing in a system at any point in his career.

[Warfan]

To be fair he was referring to 3peat kobe, not his 06-08', 03' version (even tho 01 kobe was great). But yes durants numbers overstate what he's doing on the court. I don't want to say he's 1-dimensional because he has proved he is much more than that these past 2 seasons or so, but there are times when he isn't impacting the game enough when his shots aren't falling.

[J Shuttlesworth]

How come Kobe has been unable to play "within the flow of the game" without Phil Jackson? Couldn't adapt to a D'Antoni offense, or play defense under a Mike Brown system. Couldn't make the playoffs under Rudy Tomjanovich or Frank Hamblen. Was a horrible player when he played for Del Harris and Rambis. Kobe's doesn't understand how to adapt his game to suit other playing styles. He needs the triangle in order to be effective. A system player. Durant has not had the benefit of playing in a system at any point in his career.
Actually, I was saying prime Kobe had the ability to "control the flow" of the game, and not just play within it... aka the ability to take over a game. But Kobe wasn't able to that w/o Phil Jackson because he was past his prime. He's nowhere near the defender he used to be, but he was a solid defender in his prime. I don't consider D'Antoni/Mike Brown to be Kobe's prime, even though he was still good at scoring. As he's declined, his scoring has stayed the same but his overall game has gone down a lot... particularly defense. And he had a really shitty supporting cast the year he missed the playoffs. He still put up beast numbers that year though. Agree w/ the rest to an extent.

[tpols]

Yea Ill hardly notice Durant's even playing at times. A 3 here.. a 3 there. Some FTs.. maybe a point or two from a tech or bogus and 1. This playoffs he's just rarely taken over games.. just sporadic scoring throughout games, mediocre defense, and an inability to dribble create because defenders have been allowed to be more physical on him.

Reminds me of the finals he averaged like 33 on 55% shooting.. yet I dont remember seeing shaq on the court at all.

[Rocketswin2013]

I'm not even sure Kevin Durant is as good as pre-injury Chris Paul or prime Wade...As a matter of fact I'll say it..He isn't.....

People should come up with some fair expectations for this guy because he shouldn't be expected to win every single year........like LeBron....

[Milbuck]

I'm not trying to talk shit on Kobe's all around game. I just think it's interesting that Kobe had a much stronger impact in the game even when Shaq is taking 25 shots in the paint a game. Imagine Durant in place of Kobe on the Lakers. They wouldn't have a good ability to set up other teammates, or play elite perimeter defense.

That's why I said "even prime Kobe w/ Shaq", and not just "even prime Kobe"... but there are some Thunder fans here who were trying to say Durant > prime Kobe
Oh, I misunderstood then. Yeah, it definitely seems that one of Durant's biggest weaknesses is having a consistent presence for the 35-45 minutes he's on court. There are times when he looks complacent to pound the ball to Westbrook or even Jackson, which is something you just never see other great scorers like MJ, Kobe, Wade, etc. do (obviously leaving out Lebron because passing is a natural part of his game). He also just doesn't have the defensive intensity to compensate for a poor offensive night. The dude needs some serious introspection. Needs to take a good look at himself, realize how ****ing gifted he is, and just go out there to do what everyone knows he's capable of doing. This complacency and passiveness will just never work in the postseason.

[Magic 32]

Couldn't adapt to a D'Antoni offense


17th season. Broken team.




or play defense under a Mike Brown system


16th season



Couldn't make the playoffs under Rudy Tomjanovich or Frank Hamblen


:facepalm



Was a horrible player when he played for Del Harris and Rambis


and was just a kid.

[IllegalD]

Give Durant Shaq/Gasol and Phil Jackson and you'll also see this "higher impact" from him.



I agree that KD is an overrated defender(RAPM has him as a negative defender this year) but using Kobe as an example of a good defender? Kobe's been a negative defender for his entire career.



How come Kobe has been unable to play "within the flow of the game" without Phil Jackson? Couldn't adapt to a D'Antoni offense, or play defense under a Mike Brown system. Couldn't make the playoffs under Rudy Tomjanovich or Frank Hamblen. Was a horrible player when he played for Del Harris and Rambis. Kobe's doesn't understand how to adapt his game to suit other playing styles. He needs the triangle in order to be effective. A system player. Durant has not had the benefit of playing in a system at any point in his career.

Kobe's one of the best two-way players of all-time and one of the elite perimeter defensive players that is also an all-star/superstar (Aka not defensive specialists like Bowen or Battier who only have to focus on defense). Outside of Jordan, Pippen, LeBron, Payton there is no other perimeter All Time great you can name me that is as good on both sides of the ball as Kobe.

Kobe had one of his best seasons under D'Antoni you retard. And they won like 75% of their games post all-star break until Kobe went down with the achilles tear. The year they missed the playoffs with Hamblen and Rudy he missed like 20+ games due to injury and so did Odom (their 2 best players) and Butler wasn't the player he would go on to become.

Under Rambis and Del when Kobe was 18-20 years old :roll: GTFO. How many players out of highschool outside of LeBron had an impact at that age?

If Kobe "can't adapt" his playing style how come he's been able to win rings as a a supposed "sidekick" to Shaq and then as the go-to-guy of his own team? How come nearly all the All-Star level players that have played with Kobe have had their best seasons, or most successful moments playing with him? (Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Artest, etc.) Under the Princeton offense under Brown Kobe was off to the most efficient start of a season in his career.

Just shut the f*ck up and actually watch/analyze basketball for once instead of just spewing out of your ass because of an agenda.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I'm not trying to talk shit on Kobe's all around game. I just think it's interesting that Kobe had a much stronger impact in the game even when Shaq is taking 25 shots in the paint a game. Imagine Durant in place of Kobe on the Lakers. They wouldn't have a good ability to set up other teammates, or play elite perimeter defense.

That's why I said "even prime Kobe w/ Shaq", and not just "even prime Kobe"... but there are some Thunder fans here who were trying to say Durant > prime Kobe


Kobe led the lakers in field goal attempts in the regular season & playoffs for 2/3 of the 3peat years

Not seeing the connection you're trying to make

[Magic 32]

Under the Princeton offense under Brown Kobe was off to the most efficient start of a season in his career.


:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Oh, I misunderstood then. Yeah, it definitely seems that one of Durant's biggest weaknesses is having a consistent presence for the 35-45 minutes he's on court. There are times when he looks complacent to pound the ball to Westbrook or even Jackson, which is something you just never see other great scorers like MJ, Kobe, Wade, etc. do (obviously leaving out Lebron because passing is a natural part of his game). He also just doesn't have the defensive intensity to compensate for a poor offensive night. The dude needs some serious retrospection. Needs to take a good look at himself, realize how ****ing gifted he is, and just go out there to do what everyone knows he's capable of doing. This complacency and passiveness will just never work in the postseason.
he needs to either play more like Dirk, or bulk up.
cant go in between.
his passing isnt special either tho hes became good at making simple passes and finding open 3 pt guys often.
his numbers would be even worse if he didnt get bailed out every now and then.
even today there were some ridiculous calls a guy like bron would never get:coleman:

[ImKobe]

I'm not trying to talk shit on Kobe's all around game. I just think it's interesting that Kobe had a much stronger impact in the game even when Shaq is taking 25 shots in the paint a game. Imagine Durant in place of Kobe on the Lakers. They wouldn't have a good ability to set up other teammates, or play elite perimeter defense.

That's why I said "even prime Kobe w/ Shaq", and not just "even prime Kobe"... but there are some Thunder fans here who were trying to say Durant > prime Kobe

The only way KD can control/dominate a game is by scoring, at least Kobe will make plays for others and play shutdown perimeter defense(prime Kobe), KD's frame is too weak to defend anyone in the paint or in the post, his long arms can bother the shooters, but his IQ on D is maybe average.

[Artillery]

Kobe's one of the best two-way players of all-time and one of the elite perimeter defensive players that is also an all-star/superstar (Aka not defensive specialists like Bowen or Battier who only have to focus on defense). Outside of Jordan, Pippen, LeBron, Payton there is no other perimeter All Time great you can name me that is as good on both sides of the ball as Kobe.

Kobe has never been a two-way player. He's a one-way player, similar to KD. The impact statistics don't lie:

Kobe's career defensive RAPM is -0.9. A negative on defense.

Durant's career defensive RAPM: -1.2. Also a negative.

They both pale in comparison to Lebron(a TRUE two-way player). Lebron's career def RAPM is +2.2.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe has never been a two-way player. He's a one-way player, similar to KD. The impact statistics don't lie:

Kobe's career defensive RAPM is -0.9. A negative on defense.

Durant's career defensive RAPM: -1.2. Also a negative.

They both pale in comparison to Lebron(a TRUE two-way player). Lebron's career def RAPM is +2.2.

Where are you getting the career rapm stuff?

[DMAVS41]

Meh...Durant has played alright so far. If they lose...it's not like he's had a terrible run or something.

But those numbers are okay. He's playing a ton of minutes and using up a lot of possessions to score. He is turning the ball over a ton...and he's being singled for like 90% of his time on the court so far.

Also...he was horrendous in the two crucial games (yet somehow his awful team still won)

As for the Kobe stuff...just no. Durant has not done enough in the playoffs for his career to date to be put on peak Kobe level like everyone has been saying.

But again...this coming from a message board where the common opinion, even amongst people that should know better, say they don't need to see the playoffs to assess a player.

[lakerspng]

Kobe has never been a two-way player. He's a one-way player, similar to KD. The impact statistics don't lie:

Kobe's career defensive RAPM is -0.9. A negative on defense.

Durant's career defensive RAPM: -1.2. Also a negative.

They both pale in comparison to Lebron(a TRUE two-way player). Lebron's career def RAPM is +2.2.

ummm.. I don't give a crap about advanced metrics when they're that far off base. anyone who watched Kobe can attest to how outstanding he was on both sides of the ball. he was considered the best all around and two way player in the league for half his NBA career. He took on and shut down some of the best offensive players in the league in dramatic fashion. I know it's fun to troll sometimes, but give me a break.

[DMAVS41]

ummm.. I don't give a crap about advanced metrics when they're that far off base. anyone who watched Kobe can attest to how outstanding he was on both sides of the ball. he was considered the best all around and two way player in the league for half his NBA career. He took on and shut down some of the best offensive players in the league in dramatic fashion. I know it's fun to troll sometimes, but give me a break.

Depends on the year.

Kobe was a great defender in 00 and early on, but after 02...he was not a great defender. In fact, he was nothing but slightly above average to be honest.

It's not trolling at all...Kobe being a great defender post honestly like the 01 season is one of the biggest myths in NBA history.

[tpols]

Depends on the year.

Kobe was a great defender in 00 and early on, but after 02...he was not a great defender. In fact, he was nothing but slightly above average to be honest.

It's not trolling at all...Kobe being a great defender post honestly like the 01 season is one of the biggest myths in NBA history.

Kobe had one of his best defensive seasons in 08.. he was the vocal leader on defense that year and focused on it a lot more with the scoring burden lifted. 09 he was pretty good too, and in 2010 they switched him onto WB after he was torching them and Kobe put clamps on, they put him on rondo as well and he did a nice job. 08 though he was definitely a great defender..

Kobe's always been the one of the best defenders on his top defensive teams.. hes not a guy you have to hide or is going to get targeted for mismatches.. the opposite really. They were putting him on the teams best players or guys going off to slow the bleeding. Regular season RAPM stats dont show what he does defensively in matchups during the playoffs.

[lakerspng]

Depends on the year.

Kobe was a great defender in 00 and early on, but after 02...he was not a great defender. In fact, he was nothing but slightly above average to be honest.

It's not trolling at all...Kobe being a great defender post honestly like the 01 season is one of the biggest myths in NBA history.

He still shut down any player just about at will when he decided to. As the years went on, his focus on defense and his consistent effort towards it waned... but he was still one of the best defenders at his position through till about 2010. Since then he's given almost no real care towards it, probably because of the wear and tear on his body which is understandable.... and also the lack of respect he seemed to give players who weren't "on his level", giving them way too much space to cheat toward passing lanes.

But he won his 1st team defensive awards because game on the line, locked in, there was no better defender at his position for well over a decade. every coach who coached against him knew it and that's why they voted how they did for him all those times.

[Jacks3]

Those same RAPM numbers say Kobe was still a fantastic defender in 2010 (+1.2) but of course that doesn't support the agenda.

And since when was DRAPM a perfect measure of defense?

[Artillery]

Kobe had one of his best seasons under D'Antoni you retard.

To the detriment of his team. Froze out Dwight and Nash. That team was expected to win 70 games. Ended up being one of the most expensive and disappointing teams of all-time.


And they won like 75% of their games post all-star break until Kobe went down with the achilles tear.

They played the softest schedule in the league post all-star break. Beat the teams they were supposed to beat(lottery teams). Got raped by most of the playoff teams they played during that stretch.


The year they missed the playoffs with Hamblen and Rudy he missed like 20+ games due to injury and so did Odom (their 2 best players) and Butler wasn't the player he would go on to become.

:oldlol: One of the only superstars to miss the playoffs in his prime. Shaq missed 20+ games multiple times in his career and still carried his team to the post-season.


If Kobe "can't adapt" his playing style how come he's been able to win rings as a a supposed "sidekick" to Shaq and then as the go-to-guy of his own team?

Because of Phil Jackson(GOAT coach) and the triangle. Kobe's been a career loser and irrelevant player without PJax.


How come nearly all the All-Star level players that have played with Kobe have had their best seasons, or most successful moments playing with him? (Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Artest, etc.)

Dwight says hi. Glen Rice. Caron Butler. Payton and Malone were all-stars the year before they joined the Lakers. Nash fell apart after coming to play with Kobe.


Under the Princeton offense under Brown Kobe was off to the most efficient start of a season in his career.

Lakers lost every pre-season game that year and were 1-4 to start the season. Mike Brown ended up getting fired after five games. How the hell does this show that Kobe can adapt his game to other systems? You just proved my point. Kobe put up empty stats while his team lost games.


Just shut the f*ck up and actually watch/analyze basketball for once instead of just spewing out of your ass because of an agenda.

No agenda here. Kobe is no different than Durant. One got to play with Shaq/Gasol with the GOAT coach. The other got Chuckbrook, Ibaka, and Scott Brooks.

They're both similar one-way offensive players. They're inability to impact the game on defense is why we've seen both of them fail to make any kind of impact without a stacked team. Kobe couldn't make the playoffs and was a back-to-back first round loser without Shaq/Pau. Durant was unable to make the playoffs until Ibaka was drafted by the Thunder.

Meanwhile, Lebron is one of the only wing players to win multiple championships without a decent frontcourt. Why? Because he's able to impact the game on both ends. He doesn't need a dominant big.

[Artillery]

Those same RAPM numbers say Kobe was still a fantastic defender in 2010 (+1.2) but of course that doesn't support the agenda.

And since when was DRAPM a perfect measure of defense?

I'm talking career numbers here(14 year RAPM dataset). Over his entire career, Kobe's a net negative on defense.

[tpols]

Meanwhile, Lebron is one of the only wing players to win multiple championships without a decent frontcourt. Why? Because he's able to impact the game on both ends. He doesn't need a dominant big.

The Heat had a top 5 defense before bran.. they have a defensive minded coach. Theyve always been elite defensively.

And youre right he didnt need the frontcourt because he had Dwayne Wade.. who is better than a quality frontcourt all by himself.

[Jacks3]

1. We're talking about prime/peak play.

2. The DRAPM say he was still a fantastic defender in 2010. Do you agree with that?

3. DRAPM isn't a perfect stat

[DMAVS41]

Kobe had one of his best defensive seasons in 08.. he was the vocal leader on defense that year and focused on it a lot more with the scoring burden lifted. 09 he was pretty good too, and in 2010 they switched him onto WB after he was torching them and Kobe put clamps on, they put him on rondo as well and he did a nice job. 08 though he was definitely a great defender..

Kobe's always been the one of the best defenders on his top defensive teams.. hes not a guy you have to hide or is going to get targeted for mismatches.. the opposite really. They were putting him on the teams best players or guys going off to slow the bleeding. Regular season RAPM stats dont show what he does defensively in matchups during the playoffs.

That is why I said it depends on the year. I agree in 08 he played quality defense...but meh...you guys really over-rate his impact defensively. Have for years.

[Solefade]

Kobe led the lakers in field goal attempts in the regular season & playoffs for 2/3 of the 3peat years

Not seeing the connection you're trying to make


by 1 or 2 shots? but shaq had the ball more as evidenced by his FTA difference with kobes

[Cold soul]

Kobe's one of the best two-way players of all-time and one of the elite perimeter defensive players that is also an all-star/superstar (Aka not defensive specialists like Bowen or Battier who only have to focus on defense). Outside of Jordan, Pippen, LeBron, Payton there is no other perimeter All Time great you can name me that is as good on both sides of the ball as Kobe.

Kobe had one of his best seasons under D'Antoni you retard. And they won like 75% of their games post all-star break until Kobe went down with the achilles tear. The year they missed the playoffs with Hamblen and Rudy he missed like 20+ games due to injury and so did Odom (their 2 best players) and Butler wasn't the player he would go on to become.

Under Rambis and Del when Kobe was 18-20 years old :roll: GTFO. How many players out of highschool outside of LeBron had an impact at that age?


If Kobe "can't adapt" his playing style how come he's been able to win rings as a a supposed "sidekick" to Shaq and then as the go-to-guy of his own team? How come nearly all the All-Star level players that have played with Kobe have had their best seasons, or most successful moments playing with him? (Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Artest, etc.) Under the Princeton offense under Brown Kobe was off to the most efficient start of a season in his career.

Just shut the f*ck up and actually watch/analyze basketball for once instead of just spewing out of your ass because of an agenda.


http://i.imgur.com/5gPbxQE.gif

[DMAVS41]

1. We're talking about prime/peak play.

2. The DRAPM say he was still a fantastic defender in 2010. Do you agree with that?

3. DRAPM isn't a perfect stat

Fantastic? No...I have his 2010 drapm at .4, but regardless...1.2 is not fantastic.

Dirk's was 1.3 in 2010 and he was absolutely not "fantastic"

Totally agree that drapm is not perfect.

[Jacks3]

To the detriment of his team. Froze out Dwight and Nash. That team was expected to win 70 games. Ended up being one of the most expensive and disappointing teams of all-time.

:oldlol:

My God. Nash was 39 years old and playing with ****ing nerve damage. He missed 32 games. We saw how how completely done he looked in 2014 with no Kobe around. How can you possible pin that on Bryant?

:roll:

[tpols]

That is why I said it depends on the year. I agree in 08 he played quality defense...but meh...you guys really over-rate his impact defensively. Have for years.

I have a question for you.. I know the RAPM data is only good til like 2000 or something. But I just looked and saw Gary Payton posted a negative defensive RAPM every single year from that year on while still being in his relative prime for a few years.


So was Gary Payton a one way player or a two way player?

[DMAVS41]

I have a question for you.. I know the RAPM data is only good til like 2000 or something. But I just looked and saw Gary Payton posted a negative defensive RAPM every single year from that year on while still being in his relative prime for a few years.


So was Gary Payton a one way player or a two way player?

When have I ever called Kobe solely a one way player? Well, I have about his recent years...but that has just been true like in 13 when he didn't even pretend to try defensively.

All I have ever said is that Kobe fans have grossly over-rated his defensive impact...which is a combination of ignoring how many plays he takes off and a misunderstanding of what kind of impact guard defense actually makes when it's not truly elite.

[Jacks3]

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2010-rapm

Kobe actually had a +1.3 DRAPM in 2010, which is absolutely fantastic for a guard, especially one who playing 39 MPG, but anybody who actually WATCHED him play that season will tell you that he was easily better on that end in 09 and 08 even though his DRAPM wasn't as good. That's why only morons like Artillery take DRAPM as gospel.

[DMAVS41]

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2010-rapm

Kobe actually had a +1.3 DRAPM in 2010, which is absolutely fantastic for a guard, especially one who playing 39 MPG, but anybody who actually WATCHED him play that season will tell you that he was easily better on that end in 09 and 08 even though his DRAPM wasn't as good. That's why only morons like Artillery take DRAPM as gospel.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2010.html

this site has him at .4

[eliteballer]

Anybody who has actually watched the games can see that LeBron has been much better than KD in the playoffs.

LeBron just started playing some real competition:rolleyes:

[Artillery]

1. We're talking about prime/peak play.

2. The DRAPM say he was still a fantastic defender in 2010. Do you agree with that?

3. DRAPM isn't a perfect stat

DRAPM isn't perfect but it's a good indicator about which players play defense and which don't. All the great defenders of the 2000s have positive career DRAPM numbers...all except Kobe. And yet Kobe has more defensive selections than just about ALL of them(except KG and TD). Here's the DRAPM numbers of all the notable defensers of the 2000s:

7.3 - Garnett
5.9 - Duncan
5.4 - Ben Wallace
4.1 - Marc Gasol
4.0 - Tony Allen
4.0 - Tyson Chandler
3.4 - Metta
3.3 - Bowen
3.1 - Dwight
2.8 - Battier
2.2 - Lebron
1.5 - Kidd
-0.9 - Kobe

No coincidence that Kobe's the only outlier here. Like I said, Kobe's the most overrated defender in NBA history.

[tpols]

When have I ever called Kobe solely a one way player? Well, I have about his recent years...but that has just been true like in 13 when he didn't even pretend to try defensively.

All I have ever said is that Kobe fans have grossly over-rated his defensive impact...which is a combination of ignoring how many plays he takes off and a misunderstanding of what kind of impact guard defense actually makes when it's not truly elite.

When?

I see waaaay more posting about how he was a negative defender/never made impact/etc. than the opposite. And you can look it up. Gary Payton in most of his years had negative RAPM despite being a fantastic lockdown man defender on great defensive teams.

The stat is normalized so that great rebounders and big men anchors will get more credit for their regular season play.. A guy like Dirk who played below average defense early in his career has better DRAPM stats than Jason Kidd.. one of the best defenders ever.

Its so far from being an accurate measure of whose a good defender.. and of course it doesnt take playoffs or matchup assignments into account either.

[Artillery]

:oldlol:

My God. Nash was 39 years old and playing with ****ing nerve damage. He missed 32 games. We saw how how completely done he looked in 2014 with no Kobe around. How can you possible pin that on Bryant?

:roll:

The top two players on the Lakers(Kobe/Dwight) both played 70 games and they still barely managed to make 7th seed. Even then, the league nudged them into that spot(at the Rockets and Jazz expense) because it would be embarrassing if the most hyped team of all-time didn't make the playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

When?

I see waaaay more posting about how he was a negative defender/never made impact/etc. than the opposite. And you can look it up. Gary Payton in most of his years had negative RAPM despite being a fantastic lockdown man defender on great defensive teams.

The stat is normalized so that great rebounders and big men anchors will get more credit for their regular season play.. A guy like Dirk who played below average defense early in his career has better DRAPM stats than Jason Kidd.. one of the best defenders ever.

Its so far from being an accurate measure of whose a good defender.. and of course it doesnt take playoffs or matchup assignments into account either.

Not really...it's regularized and adjusted when compared to players playing similar roles on other teams. But it is hardly perfect...never claimed it was. Each player is in a specific and different circumstance and it impacts all this stuff.

I think what you speak to is that it's very difficult for guards or perimeter players to have real impact on defense in any way unless they are elite or terrible.

I definitely don't think it's the end all be all...but I also think it's a better measure than you do.

As for Kobe...I think he's the only great defender of the last decade (the 2000s) to have a negative defensive rapm.

His individual defensive rating is also nothing indicative of being a great defender either.

Would you mind giving me your evidence for his great defense? From like 03 through 10...I'm assuming you'll concede we don't need to argue about 11 to present.

[Jacks3]

...and none of that had anything to do with points I brought up.

The entire discussion is whether Kobe during his best seasons had more defensive impact/play-making impact than this version of Durant and the answer is yes.

And your own precious DRAPM numbers back that up.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

DRAPM isn't perfect but it's a good indicator about which players play defense and which don't. All the great defenders of the 2000s have positive career DRAPM numbers...all except Kobe. And yet Kobe has more defensive selections than just about ALL of them(except KG and TD). Here's the DRAPM numbers of all the notable defensers of the 2000s:

7.3 - Garnett
5.9 - Duncan
5.4 - Ben Wallace
4.1 - Marc Gasol
4.0 - Tony Allen
4.0 - Tyson Chandler
3.4 - Metta
3.3 - Bowen
3.1 - Dwight
2.8 - Battier
2.2 - Lebron
1.5 - Kidd
-0.9 - Kobe

No coincidence that Kobe's the only outlier here. Like I said, Kobe's the most overrated defender in NBA history.
:applause: :applause: :bowdown:

[J Shuttlesworth]

...and none of that had anything to do with points I brought up.

The entire discussion is whether Kobe during his best seasons had more defensive impact/play-making impact than this version of Durant and the answer is yes.

And your own precious DRAPM numbers back that up.
True, that was the point I was going after in the OP. Kobe might be overrated a bit defensively, but he actually has an impact on that end of the floor

[tpols]

Not really...it's regularized and adjusted when compared to players playing similar roles on other teams.

I think what you speak to is that it's very difficult for guards or perimeter players to have real impact on defense in any way unless they are elite or terrible.

I definitely don't think it's the end all be all...but I also think it's a better measure than you do.

Makes no sense because Jason Kidd absolutely had a tremendous impact on defense and he was elite in years like 02 and 03.. he anchored the best defense in the league and turned the whole team around on that side of the ball. Yet his DRAPM is lower than nelly ball Dirk playing on the 25th ranked defense. :oldlol:



Perimeter players can have great impact defensively.. not as much as big men but at least big men have blocks and rebounds to give an idea of what theyre doing on that end. There's no stat that outlines a guards impact. Its highly contextual and focused more on matchups as they will be given assigments to glue one player..

[DMAVS41]

...and none of that had anything to do with points I brought up.

The entire discussion is whether Kobe during his best seasons had more defensive impact/play-making impact than this version of Durant and the answer is yes.

And your own precious DRAPM numbers back that up.

I agree with this. Current Durant is getting to be one of the more over-rated players this forum has seen since my time here.

Peak Kobe shits on current Durant defensively...and overall as a player, unless Durant does something special soon....

[Artillery]

...and none of that had anything to do with points I brought up.

The entire discussion is whether Kobe during his best seasons had more defensive impact/play-making impact than this version of Durant and the answer is yes.

And your own precious DRAPM numbers back that up.

He has twelve all-defensive selections. You'd think someone with that kind of resume would have a consistent career as a defender. The numbers say otherwise. Garnett and Duncan are a good example. They have boatloads of defensive selections but the numbers back it up. They've been great defenders their entire career. Kobe's defense has ranged from inconsistent to just outright bad for his career. Strangely enough, the media has only caught onto this recently(last year).

[BlazerRed]

His number are alright, but yeah, he's certainly not having the impact he had in the regular season. He's been shut down multiple times, especially in the Memphis series. Did nothing tonight. Was shit in a couple of games in the Clippers series. I wouldn't say he has played to his standards this playoffs, unfortunately.

[Artillery]

Makes no sense because Jason Kidd absolutely had a tremendous impact on defense and he was elite in years like 02 and 03.. he anchored the best defense in the league and turned the whole team around on that side of the ball. Yet his DRAPM is lower than nelly ball Dirk playing on the 25th ranked defense. :oldlol:

Just because someone plays on a bad defensive team doesn't mean they're a bad defender. Garnett played on some bad defensive teams in Minnesota. Doesn't mean he was a bad defender.

[DMAVS41]

Makes no sense because Jason Kidd absolutely had a tremendous impact on defense and he was elite in years like 02 and 03.. yet his DRAPM is lower than nelly ball Dirk playing on the 25th ranked defense. :oldlol:

While Kidd anchors the best defense and turns the whole team around on that side of the ball.


Perimeter players can have great impact defensively.. not as much as big men but at least big men have blocks and rebounds to give an idea of what theyre doing on that end. There's no stat that outlines a guards impact. Its highly contextual and focused more on matchups as they will be given assigments to glue one player..

It's about the impact on the specific team...that is what people miss. Yes it's regularized and it's formulated to be compared to a player playing a specific role, but it still is about how a specific player impacts the team he is on.

You answered your own question. Dirk's 1.9 drapm in 2002 for example needs to be put into context. The Mavs played no defense...and didn't play bigs. So Dirk by default is going to have a pretty big impact on a team like that when you are running out Najera/Lafrentz at center...and those guys missed a ton of games as well. Dirk was basically the only big man the 02 Mavs had.

Kidd played on the best defensive team in the league...so of course it's not going to be as big of a difference (even though kidd had a 1.8 drapm rating) because his team played elite defense.

The Nets actually played better defense when Kidd was off the court. They had a 99.9 drtg with him and a 97 drtg without him. Obviously I'm not saying Kidd hurt the defense as he played against the best players...etc, but the point is that the Nets were able to play great defense without him. So unless you think Kidd has magic powers when he's on the bench...his team was very good defensively without him.

Now, the good thing about rapm is that it's supposed to take the "noise" out of the plus minus like the above and regularize it, but again...it's hardly perfect.

Even with that context, it's a bit silly to compare Dirk to Kidd using drapm unless we are just trying to make very broad statements.

Also, Dirk is not a terrible defender...he was early on, but this notion that Dirk should have horrible defensive metrics is not accurate.

We just see the game differently obviously...it's like the Spurs/Mavs series this year. Everyone railing on Dirk for his defense...yet everyone ignored the tough ass situations he was put in because of the defensive game plan. How does his defense look now? LMA/Lopez got raped way worse. Durant/Adams/Collison/Perkins through two games aren't even close either on the pick and roll coverage...and the Thunder are helping more than the Mavs did as well.

You'll never see me claim Dirk was a defensive force or something, but it's another huge myth that Dirk can't defend. He has limitations, but he's a really smart defender and knows where to be and has pretty much his entire career since 01...with normal improvements.

[IllegalD]

DRAPM isn't perfect but it's a good indicator about which players play defense and which don't. All the great defenders of the 2000s have positive career DRAPM numbers...all except Kobe. And yet Kobe has more defensive selections than just about ALL of them(except KG and TD). Here's the DRAPM numbers of all the notable defensers of the 2000s:

7.3 - Garnett
5.9 - Duncan
5.4 - Ben Wallace
4.1 - Marc Gasol
4.0 - Tony Allen
4.0 - Tyson Chandler
3.4 - Metta
3.3 - Bowen
3.1 - Dwight
2.8 - Battier
2.2 - Lebron
1.5 - Kidd
-0.9 - Kobe

No coincidence that Kobe's the only outlier here. Like I said, Kobe's the most overrated defender in NBA history.

Only the bolded have/had to carry the offensive load that a player like Kobe does while also playing elite defense and 3 of them are big-men, who of course will have a greater defensive impact than a perimeter player. Like I said earlier, don't talk to me about defensive roleplayers who's sole job is to focus entirely on defense. The whole thread is whether Durant has similar or higher overall impact besides scoring than Kobe when it comes to defense and playmaking. And the answer is an emphatic NO. Even Kobe at 22 was far superior all-around player than Durant is right now.

I don't care how overrated you think some of Kobe's All-NBA First Teams selections are, and there may very well be a 2-3 towards the end that he got from reputation, or how many Phil Jackson quotes you cherry pick to fit your agenda. As far as All-Time, all-around, two-way, perimeter players after Jordan, Payton, Pippen, LeBron, and I'll even throw Wade in there for you if it makes you happy, there is no one...NO ONE else you can mention that is better on both sides of the ball than Kobe Bryant.

Kobe 15 Minute Defensive Highlights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uglEL2GLnAU

Kobe 2008 MVP Season Defensive Highlights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VCVP9L25vk

Kobe 5 blocks and shutdown defense on a PRIME Allen Iverson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyLg15UIRLY

And in case any of you try to get smart here's a highlight reel of Kobe's passing, which makes him look like Magic compared to Durant's playmaking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ye3D2nagUs

[Keno]

17th season. Broken team.



16th season



:facepalm



and was just a kid.

the excuses. my goodness.

[Ball So Harden]

Only the bolded have/had to carry the offensive load that a player like Kobe does while also playing elite defense

I think you overlooked that the results you highlighted shows that Kobe's D was not elite.

[IllegalD]

I think you overlooked that the results you highlighted shows that Kobe's D was not elite.

I think you overlooked the original point of the thread which is wether current durant has an equal or better overall impact than even 22 year old Kobe (let alone prime Kobe). Way to ignore everything I said and focus on some arbitrary flawed stat. Kobe haters are hypocrites with this kind of thing. The same people that want to use PER to say that Gasol was the real MVP of the Lakers yet ignore it when the same stat says Kobe had a higher PER than Shaq throughout the 2001 Championship run.

Kobe-hating hypocricy at its best. :applause:

[Lebronxrings]

this is now a kobe thread. Proof every dubeta stan is really a kobe stan in disguise.