Truth or Myth: Is okc better with rondo?

[veilside23]

discuss...

for me westbrook is a stud that can lead a team into a playoffs specially in the east but westbrook is not a pure PG.

[Milbuck]

How good was he this year with the Celtics? Haven't seen much of him since his return.

[stalkerforlife]

True.

Westbrook doesn't accept his role as second fiddle.

[veilside23]

How good was he this year with the Celtics? Haven't seen much of him since his return.


he was cruisin' :pimp: 11 pts 5 rebs 9.8 assists

[Milbuck]

he was cruisin' :pimp: 11 pts 5 rebs 9.8 assists
Damn, that's tough to decide then.

OKC was looking pretty damn good with Westbrook out, obviously they weren't doing anything in the playoffs without him...but seeing how they're doing now WITH him, it's definitely a tough question.

I say that Thunder team that went 20-7 in around 2 months without Westbrook might be better than what we've seen these playoffs (pre-Ibaka injury) if you added Rondo. Durant would be far more comfortable, every player would be fed more often, and Brooks's complete cluelessness offensively would be hidden to an extent.

It's obviously more a matter of fit. Westbrook is clearly the better player. But Rondo in his place would make OKC dangerously balanced.

[The_Yearning]

OKC is better with LeBron.

:lebronamazed:

[DMAVS41]

And nothing else changes? Brooks is still coach and it's just a Rondo and Westbrook swap?

They are worse...considerably in my opinion.

[Dragonyeuw]

I'd say better ONLY IF you also had a decent low post option as well, someone like Al Jefferson or David West. Westbrook is obviously a greater talent overall than Rondo, but I think Rondo would match better with Durant. There's too much 'my turn, your turn' iso ball with Durant-Westbrook.

[DMAVS41]

I'd say better ONLY IF you also had a decent low post option as well, someone like Al Jefferson or David West. Westbrook is obviously a greater talent overall than Rondo, but I think Rondo would match better with Durant. There's too much 'my turn, your turn' iso ball with Durant-Westbrook.

And who is going to score and put pressure on the defense with Rondo on this team?

Where is the scoring going to come from? Durant already scores 32 a game. Is he going to score 40 with Rondo? Reggie Jackson and Ibaka already combine for like 30 points a game. Are they going to get 40 now?

I don't see how this team with Rondo is better.

[CelticBaller]

And who is going to score and put pressure on the defense with Rondo on this team?

Where is the scoring going to come from? Durant already scores 32 a game. Is he going to score 40 with Rondo? Reggie Jackson and Ibaka already combine for like 30 points a game. Are they going to get 40 now?

I don't see how this team with Rondo is better.
rondo would make ibaka look like kg

[DMAVS41]

rondo would make ibaka look like kg

Man...I don't know.

I think Westbrook gets Ibaka a lot of good shots.

Again, this is a coaching issue more than anything. I just don't see how Rondo fixes any of these issues.

What are the Thunder doing to do when Durant goes into his "I can't get the ball and I'm going to stand in the corner, but not stretch the floor because I can be singled by a guard" mode? Who is carrying that scoring load consistently?

Rondo? Ibaka? Jackson?

I mean...maybe...with a new coach and an improve sg over Thabo, but Westbrook would also greatly benefit from a new coach and a better sg as well.

[Milbuck]

Is this just a hypothetical scenario in which you swap the two players, or a hypothetical trade scenario? Because I would assume the Thunder get more than just post-ACL surgery Rondo for Westbrook, even if his return went well.

I'd say Rondo and Bradley for Westbrook could very well improve the Thunder.

People are underestimating how good OKC looked without Russ this season...20-7, not counting the missed back-to-backs after he returned.

I don't think they would miss him that much in the playoffs either considering that Rondo has historically come up big in the big moments. Dude is a killer in his own right. Plus with Bradley they'd have that perimeter defender back for the 2 spot, ever since Thabo started declining.

They could have:

Rondo/Jackson
Bradley/Lamb
Durant/Butler
Ibaka/Collison/PJ3
Adams/Perk/Collison

I think if Scott Brooks got his head out of his ass and gave Adams, Lamb, and PJ3 much more playing time, that lineup could win it all. You'd have a defender at every position, with good backups at every position as well. I think there'd be enough scoring/shooting with Durant, Jackson, Ibaka, Butler, Lamb, etc. And with Rondo feeding Adams and Ibaka I think they'd have better interior scoring.

[Jacks3]

Westbrook is 10X the player Rondo is. Putting Rondo on the Thunder would just destroy their spacing and put a ton more pressure on Durant, because Rondo is a ****ing awful scorer and shooter. Dude was leading bottom 5 offenses with KG/Allen/Pierce and people think he'd make OKC better? :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Is this just a hypothetical scenario in which you swap the two players, or a hypothetical trade scenario? Because I would assume the Thunder get more than just post-ACL surgery Rondo for Westbrook, even if his return went well.

I'd say Rondo and Bradley for Westbrook could very well improve the Thunder.

People are underestimating how good OKC looked without Russ this season...20-7, not counting the missed back-to-backs after he returned.

I don't think they would miss him that much in the playoffs either considering that Rondo has historically come up big in the big moments. Dude is a killer in his own right. Plus with Bradley they'd have that perimeter defender back for the 2 spot, ever since Thabo started declining.

They could have:

Rondo/Jackson
Bradley/Lamb
Durant/Butler
Ibaka/Collison/PJ3
Adams/Perk/Collison

I think if Scott Brooks got his head out of his ass and gave Adams, Lamb, and PJ3 much more playing time, that lineup could win it all. You'd have a defender at every position, with good backups at every position as well. I think there'd be enough scoring/shooting with Durant, Jackson, Ibaka, Butler, Lamb, etc. And with Rondo feeding Adams and Ibaka I think they'd have better interior scoring.

It's hard because the regular season is just so meaningless. You have a good team with a superstar and you try hard...and you are going to win a lot of games.

I do agree with your post. Rondo/Bradley might make them better...but it's still close for me. That scoring is going to be really tough.

And it's not fair to talk about next years version of Adams, Lamb, and Jones because they are going to all be for sure better players next year regardless of the point guard.

I still wouldn't pull the trigger if I'm the Thunder for that deal. I'd need one more player for Westbrook.

I know Bradley is a free agent, but assuming he signs with the Celtics...I'd do;

Westbrook/Perkins/Jones/Roberson/Dallas pick for Rondo/Bradley/Green

Ugh...I'd probably do that. Damn...I'm really not sure. I love Westbrook man.

[Dragonyeuw]

And who is going to score and put pressure on the defense with Rondo on this team?

Where is the scoring going to come from? Durant already scores 32 a game. Is he going to score 40 with Rondo? Reggie Jackson and Ibaka already combine for like 30 points a game. Are they going to get 40 now?

I don't see how this team with Rondo is better.

Did you miss the part where I said they'd also need a lost post scorer like a Jefferson or West? Because I clearly stated that in my post. You need better scoring out of your PF-C positions to get out of the west currently. Ibaka is fine for what he does, but Perkins aside from toughness and a snarl gives you nothing on offense. If their lineup was Durant, Rondo, Ibaka, Selfolosha,and say David West, that to me is a better lineup capable of being a serious contender out west. Right now, they'll win alot of regular season games on talent alone, but I don't see them winning the title as presently constructed.

[oarabbus]

OKC is better with LeBron.

:lebronamazed:


Every team is better with LeBron.

[DMAVS41]

Did you miss the part where I said they'd also need a lost post scorer like a Jefferson or West? Because I clearly stated that in my post. You need better scoring out of your PF-C positions to get out of the west currently. Ibaka is fine for what he does, but Perkins aside from toughness and a snarl gives you nothing on offense. If their lineup was Durant, Rondo, Ibaka, Selfolosha,and say David West, that to me is a better lineup capable of being a serious contender out west. Right now, they'll win alot of regular season games on talent alone, but I don't see them winning the title as presently constructed.


Oh...well what does that have to do with trading Westbrook then? That is just adding a low post scorer.

Of course they would be much better with Marc Gasol instead of Perkins.

Also, they are already a serious contender. People need to stop ignoring that their 3rd best player is out and they are playing the best team in the league.

[Dragonyeuw]

Oh...well what does that have to do with trading Westbrook then? That is just adding a low post scorer.

Of course they would be much better with Marc Gasol instead of Perkins.

Also, they are already a serious contender. People need to stop ignoring that their 3rd best player is out and they are playing the best team in the league.

The question was is OKC better with Rondo. And my reply was that I believe Rondo would be a better fit IF you also were able to land a low post scorer as a legit second option. So it does have to do with trading Westbrook with a major caveat, a straight 1:1 swap doesnt make OKC better and I never implied otherwise. I do think Durant would be better off with a more classic, pass first PG.

Also, I'm not ignoring that Ibaka is out. But I'm not sure if he's the difference between OkC winning and losing. 'My turn, your turn' iso hero ball isn't going to beat this year's Spurs team, just as that strategy didn't work for Miami in 2011 against Dallas.

[DMAVS41]

The question was is OKC better with Rondo. I'm guessing that is suggesting a trade for Westbrook. And my reply was that I believe Rondo would be a better fit IF you also were able to land a low post scorer as a legit second option. So it does have to do with trading Westbrook with a major caveat, a straight 1:1 swap doesnt make OKC better and I never implied otherwise. I do think Durant would be better off with a more classic, pass first PG.

I agree about the straight up swap...

Meh...if we get to just add a low post scorer on the current Thunder. I'd keep Westbrook. I think people would be surprised about Westbrook if the Thunder had a low post scorer to dump the ball to.

As the team is now...Westbrook is forced to do a lot of what he does...especially when Durant hides in the corner.

[ErhnamDjinn]

Okc needs one more legit scorer, would have been better with a core of rondo, harden durant.

[Dragonyeuw]

I agree about the straight up swap...

Meh...if we get to just add a low post scorer on the current Thunder. I'd keep Westbrook. I think people would be surprised about Westbrook if the Thunder had a low post scorer to dump the ball to.

As the team is now...Westbrook is forced to do a lot of what he does...especially when Durant hides in the corner.

I'm not sold on those two as a long-term duo, I just don't think the synergy is there. Westbrook IMO would be better off as a SG leading his own team, as thats his natural position. As long as they're wrestling over who the 'alpha' is and all that nonsense, I really can't see them winning a championship. Oh they'll get close on pure talent alone, but they won't beat the Spurs or Heat, especially in clutch, late game situations.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

rondo would only make them better if they get another good scoring big men OR at least jeff green.
Durant cant score 40 PPG:biggums:

[DMAVS41]

I'm not sold on those two as a long-term duo, I just don't think the synergy is there. Westbrook IMO would be better off as a SG leading his own team, as thats his natural position. As long as they're wrestling over who the 'alpha' is and all that nonsense, I really can't see them winning a championship. Oh they'll get close on pure talent alone, but they won't beat the Spurs or Heat, especially in clutch, late game situations.

To me it's all coaching.

I actually don't think there is an "alpha" struggle...just a lack of defined roles.

And regardless, Westbrook is the alpha of this team...he's the one that isn't afraid and he's the one that never stops attacking or playing. He already saved the season with his game 5 against the clippers.

Also, we can't ignore the horrible luck for the Thunder the last 2 years now. WB goes down and now Ibaka.

This team doesn't need radical change...I honestly don't get what people are talking about. They are in the WCF yet again for the 3rd time in 4 years and 3 out of 3 with WB healthy....and they are without a key player. They have an inept coach and a GM that ****ed them in the ass by not improving the sg position with all the assets they have.

This team is only going to be better next year and the players are all still improving.

This team fires Brooks and hires Jeff Van Gundy and they win it all in my opinion within 2 years...probably next year if Presti gets them a ****ing real sg with all the assets he's piled up collecting dust in his closet right now.

Westbrook 25
Durant 25
Ibaka 24
Reggie 23
Lamb 21
Perry Jones 20
Adams 20

You really want to mess with that core with 7 guys 25 or under? With assets and picks to make moves?

This team doesn't need an overhaul. It needs to develop Lamb, Adams, and Jones more next year and also add a better starting sg and get rid of dead weight like Butler, Fisher, and Thabo.

[Dragonyeuw]

To me it's all coaching.

I actually don't think there is an "alpha" struggle...just a lack of defined roles.

And regardless, Westbrook is the alpha of this team...he's the one that isn't afraid and he's the one that never stops attacking or playing. He already saved the season with his game 5 against the clippers.

Also, we can't ignore the horrible luck for the Thunder the last 2 years now. WB goes down and now Ibaka.

This team doesn't need radical change...I honestly don't get what people are talking about. They are in the WCF yet again for the 3rd time in 4 years and 3 out of 3 with WB healthy....and they are without a key player. They have an inept coach and a GM that ****ed them in the ass by not improving the sg position with all the assets they have.

This team is only going to be better next year and the players are all still improving.

This team fires Brooks and hires Jeff Van Gundy and they win it all in my opinion within 2 years...

My mind flashed on coaching before, didn't bother to post it. Yeah I also think they've gone as far as they can under Scott Brooks. It kind of reminds me of the 1990 Bulls. The pieces were there, but they needed a coach to teach them how to harness that talent into championship basketball( and for key players to naturally improve, Jordan obviously was already championship-ready by that point). I think the Thunder are more or less at that point right now.

[salwan]

Rondo.

He's like a coach on the floor, so Brooks' stupidity would not matter.

He would take 7-10 shots less and give the other guys better looks.

[unknowns8]

truth

rondo offers them a more organised structure where the shots are deliberate and considered for all players on his team ... maybe durant could average 40ppg in similar minutes with rondo on his team

westbrook, whilst more athletic and naturally a scorer, is often stymied in tight/pressure/clutch situations at end of games as he's less prepared than rondo is

[The Iron Sheik]

this "pure pg" stuff makes no sense. it's as if people think that point guards aren't supposed to score and are just supposed to pass all game. rondo doesn't shoot 15-20 times a game because his coach doesn't want him to because he's not the scorer Westbrook is. if Westbrook shooting as much as he does was okc's biggest problem it would have been addressed long ago.

I guess serge ibaka, Steven Adams and Reggie Jackson are secretly 18-20ppg scorers just being held back by Westbrook? **** outta here

[D-FENS]

he was cruisin' :pimp: 11 pts 5 rebs 9.8 assists

He played no D. He has his worst defensive season in terms of defensive rating, and by the eye test he was just giving up on a lot of plays. I think he was unmotivated playing for a losing team. It's a shame because Brad Stevens got a lot out of the rest of the roster
http://i.imgur.com/56k7QP6.png

[D-FENS]

This team fires Brooks and hires Jeff Van Gundy and they win it all in my opinion within 2 years...probably next year if Presti gets them a ****ing real sg with all the assets he's piled up collecting dust in his closet right now.


Imagine what would happen if you stuck Stauskas or Harris on this team? Or found a way to trade for Korver.

[ZenMaster]

this "pure pg" stuff makes no sense. it's as if people think that point guards aren't supposed to score and are just supposed to pass all game. rondo doesn't shoot 15-20 times a game because his coach doesn't want him to because he's not the scorer Westbrook is. if Westbrook shooting as much as he does was okc's biggest problem it would have been addressed long ago.

I guess serge ibaka, Steven Adams and Reggie Jackson are secretly 18-20ppg scorers just being held back by Westbrook? **** outta here

It makes perfect sense as it's not about only passing or only shooting. It's about being able to run offense for the entire team.

If team ppg is your concern... Westbrook gets what, 25 a game?
Rondo gets 10 of those himself and I don't think it's unrealistic to think he'll get KD and Ibaka 3-4 more ppg, Perk, Sefalosha, Jackson and Collison 2 more ppg. + Whoever else they get with the money over from Rondos contract compared to Westbrook would help them out as well.

If they don't want to trade I'm all for moving him to the 2 guard with Jackson at the 1. Question is if his ego can handle that.

[JTatStarranch]

Probably about 2-3 less wins per regular season... Maybe slightly better in deeper rounds of the playoffs.

Rondo is not the Rondo from 5- 6 years ago.

Stop living in the past.

[Thorpesaurous]

I'm not opposed to the notion, but I'm not sure Rondo is the right "Pure PG", because they still need to space the floor around Durant, and that's not Rondo's thing at all.

The more I watch this team, the more I'm not sure the answers aren't at least in part in house.

Why not play Jackson and Westbrook together more? Just to keep Sefolosha on the floor? Jackson's not a "pure" PG himself, but you can reign in his decision making more. And you don't want a real "pure" PG, because you still want the ball in Westbrook's hands a fair amount to do your creating. You just need someone who'll control the tempo a bit more, because Westbrook just isn't going to stop going forward.

I also feel like when healthy, they really should tinker with a super small lineup a little, with Ibaka and Durant moving to 5 and 4. You'd get killed on the glass, but it should open up space to score at a frantic rate for stretches.

[imdaman99]

The problem is you can't make non offensive players and turn them into scorers. Perkins and Sefolosha are who we thought they were. Last night's problem was OKC played as well as they could have to start it. Sure Russ didn't shoot well to start but he was attacking and it gave them offensive putback dunks. The problem was as well as OKC was playing, Perkins and Sefolosha had too many opportunities in the beginning to get the lead... and they walk out with a 2 point lead. It should have been 10.

It's not that Westbrook is a problem in this series, they can't guard this team. I'm sure some of it has to do with Russ's shot selection or turnovers, but the Spurs are putting so much pressure on them to score everytime down because they aren't stopping them.

If you wanna swap Rondo and Westbrook, I guess you can try that. Somehow you want Durant to average 35+. Don't you think he will wear down? He lit it up regular season and is now worn down. Ibaka to average 20 pts and all their role playing 1 way players to step up their scoring because Rondo obviously passes more than Westbrook. What can I say, if OKC goes down quietly in this series than I say make the trade. You won't miss him till he's gone.

[jbryan1984]

In place of Westbrook? True. Westbrook is by far a better scorer, that's about it though. Rondo has such a great basketball IQ, can defend, can still score when needed and he recognizes the talent around him.

[The Iron Sheik]

It makes perfect sense as it's not about only passing or only shooting. It's about being able to run offense for the entire team.

If team ppg is your concern... Westbrook gets what, 25 a game?
Rondo gets 10 of those himself and I don't think it's unrealistic to think he'll get KD and Ibaka 3-4 more ppg, Perk, Sefalosha, Jackson and Collison 2 more ppg. + Whoever else they get with the money over from Rondos contract compared to Westbrook would help them out as well.

If they don't want to trade I'm all for moving him to the 2 guard with Jackson at the 1. Question is if his ego can handle that.

okc runs a shit offense because of brooks. it isn't like they have a set play for someone other than westbrook and because he can't make a clear entry pass he just pulls the ball out and dribbles for 12+ seconds because he wants to break the offense like a steve francis or something. that's being a bad pg to me.

rondo isn't gonna make perkins not have stone hands. he isn't gonna make ibaka more than a spot up shooter. he isn't gonna make collison and adams be good finishers inside outside of the occasional tip-ins. durant is already doing 31 a game this postseason while playing 44mpg, and did 32 for the season. i mean, how much of a load is supposed to carry? if they had rondo, it would just be rondo kicking the ball out for other guys to either make or miss contested shots.

don't get me wrong, i love rondo. he's a great pg, but there's more than 1 way to play the pg position. so far, the way westbrook plays has been beneficial to okc. okc simply doesn't have an offense to ruin. it's mostly pick and roll leading to durant post ups or spot ups for other guys.

and as far as westbrook and jackson playing together, it won't be much different. it just seems like it works more because jackson is a much better offensive player than seflosha (who is almost as valuable as perkins at this point). on most teams, and especially on okc, there isn't much difference in the guard positions. both guys usually have to have the same skillsets and abilities. so it wouldn't be an issue of ego. westbrook would be playing the same way he already does.

[red1]

myth

[christian1923]

Durant would have to average 50 points a game to make that team good.

[ZenMaster]

okc runs a shit offense because of brooks. it isn't like they have a set play for someone other than westbrook and because he can't make a clear entry pass he just pulls the ball out and dribbles for 12+ seconds because he wants to break the offense like a steve francis or something. that's being a bad pg to me.

You are right, they don't only run shit offense because of brooks, but also because Westbrook can't or won't run stuff. He's not good at making any sort of entry pass and too often looks for his own attack.


rondo isn't gonna make perkins not have stone hands. he isn't gonna make ibaka more than a spot up shooter. he isn't gonna make collison and adams be good finishers inside outside of the occasional tip-ins. durant is already doing 31 a game this postseason while playing 44mpg, and did 32 for the season. i mean, how much of a load is supposed to carry? if they had rondo, it would just be rondo kicking the ball out for other guys to either make or miss contested shots.

He will find them all easier shots, to me it's crazy to think that these players couldn't get two more points a game because of the reasons you give.

Then this whole can KD carry anymore load, he could if he got a few more easier shots every game, and that's the problem with their offense. It is and looks so damn hard for them to score vs a good team like the Spurs and it's because they take turns trying instead of working together as a unit.


don't get me wrong, i love rondo. he's a great pg, but there's more than 1 way to play the pg position. so far, the way westbrook plays has been beneficial to okc. okc simply doesn't have an offense to ruin. it's mostly pick and roll leading to durant post ups or spot ups for other guys.

The way WB has played has been beneficial in that they are a good young athletic team. It's not benefical when you play against the Spurs in the WCF or even the playoffs in general. A few of the games vs Memphis is some of the worst PG play you'll ever see for a good player.


and as far as westbrook and jackson playing together, it won't be much different. it just seems like it works more because jackson is a much better offensive player than seflosha (who is almost as valuable as perkins at this point). on most teams, and especially on okc, there isn't much difference in the guard positions. both guys usually have to have the same skillsets and abilities. so it wouldn't be an issue of ego. westbrook would be playing the same way he already does.

What? On OKC there is a huge difference from the guard positions right now, WB has the ball A LOT more than Sefalosha and runs a lot more pickn'rolls.

I've coached an equal opportunity offense where the two guards had equal responsibilites and were completely interchangeable, OKC isn't doing anything close to that.
They're trying to play a position based offense, they just don't have the point guard or coach to do it.

I mentioned the ego part because if you're going to move WB to the 2 you're telling him he can't do what he's been trying to do his entire NBA career, players often don't like that even if it's for the better moving forward.

[Thorpesaurous]

Another thing to add, I think there is more to get out of Durant. Of the handfull of historically great players, Durant reminds me most of Bird. And the reason for that is that Bird is the one that had the most perimeter shooting in the mix. But Bird was a flat out great post player. And we haven't seen that from Durant yet. And we're getting to a point where we're seeing him guarded by smaller players. There's not a ton of value in being an oversized three if you're not going to punish teams for guarding you small. Just last round we saw The Clippers throw Chris Paul on him. We have some stunning footage of KD hitting some incredible fade aways over him. But those are exceptionally tough shots. It's frankly the thing that pushed Lebron to the next level a few years ago.

If the offense starts running more through him closer to the hoop, Westbrook may fit in better.

I'm sure a good chunk of it falls on Brooks' shoulders for not demanding things be run like that. But Durant is going to get to a point soon where people will start asking what's next, and is this enough, if he doesn't win one.

[veilside23]

Rondo is 28 we cant say if his past is really "past" he is just entering his suppose to be prime .

sure he cant shoot but saying rondo cant score is pure BS .....

people who say Wb is 10X better than rondo is all about highlights.

The hustle and toughness of rondo is better than westbrook's ability to shoot but WB's shot selection can sometimes go :facepalm .

People forget that thunder has Jeremy lamb .. kid will just be sitting in the corner like danny green shooting 3's if rondo is playing PG. Durant will also see a better view in shooting.

Rondo is a great passer I know that's one thing that wont fade even if he would be less athletic like in the past he would still be great at it just look at andre miller he is like 40 but still effective because he can pass and read the floor well.

With westbrook he would score first before passing the ball.

[bizil]

In terms of making Durant better, HELL YA! And don't hold that against Westbrook because he was an SG in college who had to adapt to PG in the L. However, OKC is a team that lacks scoring depth. So they need Russ to be more scoring minded. The only problem is the flow of the game. A PG like Paul would clearly make OKC better. Because Paul is a pure PG who ALSO has alpha scoring talent. As great as Rondo is, he's more in the mold of a Stockton or Mo Cheeks. Which is a pure PG with great defense, but doesn't possess alpha dog scoring. And on a side not, I think OKC made a mistake choosing Ibaka over Harden. Harden with Kobe out and D-Wade hobbled often is the premier SG in the world. Who's also a great passer and better floor general than Westbrook, so it would have balanced things out. Westbrook-Harden-Durant could have went down as the most devastating PG-SG-SF trio of all time!