Is it really Duncan or was it Pop all along?

[rhythmic]

It's kind of incredible what SA has been doing the past 5-6 years in this league. There are NOT the deepest team, or the most athletic or talented. They're actually just alright. Look closely at that roster. I am starting to seriously consider Pop as the greatest basketball coach of all-time. You give him a Euroball scrub and he'll somehow insert him into a scheme that will utilize his strengths.

Than I look at Duncan. IMO, he's still a top 10 talent all-time and his peak from 99' to 05' was impressive, a top 3 player every year...perhaps the best in a few of those seasons. But I've witnessed so many games in these past half decade from SA to conclude that Duncan is extremely overrated. SA just destroyed OKC in game 2 while Duncan (not surprising to me anymore) had a pretty crappy game. He's been doing this quite often. The reason he's so overrated is mostly because of him not being in a huge market and his nice guy persona. But seriously, no other basketball legend has ever gotten so much respect from the fans in general. Yes he once was an all around amazing players, but it's not so much his skills I'm really pointing too here. First off, his skills are NOT top 10 worthy. Maybe top 20. His accomplishments is where I really see the problem, in particular his success on the Spurs. The dude can literally play 30 MPG and miss a bunch of games due to age and his team hardly misses a beat. I have a hard time believing that Parker or Manu or the countless other players on the Spurs would be as highly regarded if they played for the Knicks or say Denver. It really is Pop that's doing the magic behind the scenes and its time to seriously realize that.

I don't think I've ever witnessed a more overrated athlete in sports to be honest. He hasn't been a top 10 player for ages it seems, yet SA continuously wins 50 to 60 games. He's had a few great games in these playoffs but SA has been stream rolling everyone. Seriously it's not the roster that's doing it, it's Pop utilizing his players to their absolute maximum. The fact that Pop himself has already said in the past that Duncan's resume might make him one of the ten or so greatest players just emphasizes what I'm seeing as well.

I'm not doubting how great Timmy was in his prime; he was one of the best players in a very competitive league for a number of years and his MVPs are deserving. I just think his accomplishments (in terms of team success) are a bit skewed. I see people saying he's better than Kobe and I just laugh every time. This current Spurs team that's stream rolling everyone in their path right now aren't even better than the team Kobe annihilated during his three-straight final appeances with Pau; destroying SA in five games. He's also outplayed Duncan in 01' by a huge margin. Has a clear advantage in the head to head match-up. People will pin point to Kobe having Shaq, yet completely ignore how Kobe simply outplayed Duncan in almost every single series. Kobe actually had to rebuild in his career, Duncan coasted with Pop along his side since he was drafted. Yet Kobe still has a more impressive resume.

I'd place him somewhere in the 9th or 10th spot to be honest...could easily make a case for guys like Moses being higher as well.

Kareem, Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Bird, Shaquille, Wilt, Hakeem, LeBron

There's no way in hell he's better than any one of those players. His longevity isn't that great and the fact that his team has been doing so well despite his obvious decline makes me realize the greatness of Pop not so much Duncan. I don't think Pop would have won a single ring from 99 to 05' without Duncan, because Timmy was that good and is obviously a legend...but he's overrated to an extent, mostly because people just don't comprehend how much he had to work with over his career. Case point, the last 4-5 years.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Duncan is ahead of kobe all time, let it go already
didnt read

[SilkkTheShocker]

Duncan>>>>>Kobe

[livinglegend]

Duncan > Kobe

[rhythmic]

Thanks for proving my point guys. :oldlol:
Adios till next time.

This forum has become a playground for the ignorant and trolls.

[pastis]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[T_L_P]

2011: Duncan at his worst, Spurs lose to the 8th seed
2013: Duncan makes All-NBA First Team, returns to the Finals.

Yeah, they don't miss a beat when he's off. :roll:

Over the past five years Duncan has been a 17/10 guy. What more can you ask of a 33-38 year old?

2014 Spurs PER leaders: #1 is Duncan (21.4), #2 is Splitter (19.6). Yet I bet you think he's a role player on this team.

Bulls without Jordan: 50+ wins
Lakers without Kareem: 60+ wins

Yet Duncan is the only one benefiting from great help? Hilarious. :oldlol:

[DCL]

when i see the spurs, i don't think of duncan first anymore. that stopped a long time ago. now when i see the spurs, i just see a team. all that passing, all the unselfishness, all those team-assisted buckets. that shit is on the players but it also starts with the coach in pounding that philsophy into their minds. popovich is so underrated.

[T_L_P]

And I'll say this: if you think Duncan had more help than Shaq, Kobe, Magic, Kareem, Bird or Russell something is wrong with you.

You'll throw out the "deep" excuse, but Duncan has never played with a superstar (only signs of one in Parker/Manu for one or two seasons at a time).

Shaq played with Penny, Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Pierce, Nash, Garnett and Allen, and a bunch of fringe stars, and a lot of great role players. Yet he accomplished less than Duncan in his career.

Duncan won every single one of his titles without another All-NBA teammate. Jordan did that in '91. Hakeem did it in '94. Dirk did it in '11. Duncan did it in '99, '03, '05, and '07.

Oh, and what was Popovich's record before Duncan got there? I can excuse that because the team was banged up and probably tanking. But, in the grand scheme of things, what has he done since Duncan's decline? Phil was the GOAT before he even got to LA, and he was huge in developing Kobe. Duncan was a star out of college. Kobe was a near bench warmer before Phil got there, then he missed the Playoffs when Phil left, then he got the 7th seed and missed a whole season since his second departure. See the correlation there?

[BigBoss]

Moreso Duncan. Id love to see Pop or Phil coach a team without hall of famers

[Bandito]

Mmm op makes some nice points.

[ArbitraryWater]

didnt read duncan > kobe

forreal though i like the effort&thought behind it.. not just some stupid blatant statements made without anything else

[Bandito]

I think it was a combination of both. Duncan being as great as he is, having great teammates coupled with having Pop as a coach is a formula for success.

[obonpaxis]

http://i57.tinypic.com/2rdaj3q.jpg

Per 36 doesn't tell the whole story, but this is still insane.

He's the fifth oldest player in the NBA right now, and all those other cats are either coming off the bench (Fisher, Allen, Andre Miller), or in Nash's case, perma-hobbled.

Duncan being this relevant to a potential chip team at age 38 is almost as impressive to me as his early-00's peak.

[T_L_P]

http://i57.tinypic.com/2rdaj3q.jpg

Per 36 doesn't tell the whole story, but this is still insane.

He's the fifth oldest player in the NBA right now, and all those other cats are either coming off the bench (Fisher, Allen, Andre Miller), or in Nash's case, perma-hobbled.

Duncan being this relevant to a potential chip team at age 38 is almost as impressive to me as his early-00's peak.

Emotional leader on the floor, defensive anchor, 18/10 averages since '09, and this guys think he's been a glorified scrub since '05. :oldlol:

Bird and Magic weren't in the league at 38. Shaq was playing half a minute a game. Nothing Duncan does at this point can't hurt his legacy.

[Carbine]

The fact the Spurs haven't won a title since Duncan was near his prime is telling.

Having watched him for his whole career, he started to noticably decline from his prime in the '08-'09 season. The results?

1st round exit
2nd round exit
1st round exit
The collapse vs. the Thunder

It took a resurgent year from Duncan (He looked a lot more nimble and spry on his feet vs. the prior years) last year and they got back to the finals.

Timmy isn't a spry as last year, and his defense has suffered a bit (though he's still very good) because of that. However he's still a main cog of the team.

1st in rebound
1st in block
2nd in points
3rd in assists

And he's the same in the playoffs except for assists which he is 4th.

At this point winning another title and him just being one of the main cogs instead of being THE main cog is just gravy. He's 38 years old. Most guy are retired or completely washed up at that point. Duncan deserves a lot of credit for still being a key contributor on a championship contender.

Ultimately it would be a reflection upon how great the 2013-2014 Spurs are as a team if they win a title.

[Take Your Lumps]

Pop disagrees.

[QUOTE]

[tpols]

Duncan won every single one of his titles without another All-NBA teammate. Jordan did that in '91. Hakeem did it in '94. Dirk did it in '11. Duncan did it in '99, '03, '05, and '07.


Manu was a 21/6/5 25 PER player in 2005.. one of the best passing and defending guards in the league.. extremely high bball IQ and great efficiency.

Parker was a beast in 07 and has been for a while now 1a and 1b with duncan for best player on the team with some years him being blatantly better than Duncan.


Best coaching/drafting/scouting/executing team in the league.. they didnt have a single player average over 16 ppg this year and theyre dominating the league. Superstars arent necessary in San Antonio... this isnt Kobe/Shaq or 11 Lebron/Wade.. its 04 pistons right now.

[T_L_P]

The fact the Spurs haven't won a title since Duncan was near his prime is telling.

Having watched him for his whole career, he started to noticably decline from his prime in the '08-'09 season. The results?

1st round exit
2nd round exit
1st round exit
The collapse vs. the Thunder

It took a resurgent year from Duncan (He looked a lot more nimble and spry on his feet vs. the prior years) last year and they got back to the finals.

Timmy isn't a spry as last year, and his defense has suffered a bit (though he's still very good) because of that. However he's still a main cog of the team.

1st in rebound
1st in block
2nd in points
3rd in assists

And he's the same in the playoffs except for assists which he is 4th.

At this point winning another title and him just being one of the main cogs instead of being THE main cog is just gravy. He's 38 years old. Most guy are retired or completely washed up at that point. Duncan deserves a lot of credit for still being a key contributor on a championship contender.

Ultimately it would be a reflection upon how great the 2013-2014 Spurs are as a team if they win a title.

:bowdown:

It's also very telling that the Kobe stans point out "60+ wins every season" which isn't even true but blatantly look over the fact that when Duncan under performs, they lose in the Playoffs, early.

If all we're discussing is the regular season and Duncan's decline, what about the '94 Bulls, who still won 50+ games without the best player in the world? Or the Lakers when Kareem retired, who won 63 games.

[T_L_P]

Manu was a 21/6/5 25 PER player in 2005.. one of the best passing and defending guards in the league.. extremely high bball IQ and great efficiency.

Parker was a beast in 07 and has been for a while now 1a and 1b with duncan for best player on the team with some years him being blatantly better than Duncan.


Best coaching/drafting/executing team in the league.. they didnt have a single player average over 16 ppg this year and theyre dominating the league. Superstars arent necessary in San Antonio... this isnt Kobe/Shaq or 11 Lebron/Wade.. its 04 pistons right now.

All of this is very true. I said they looked like superstars in certain years (Manu in '05 especially). But the fact still remains that Duncan never had an All-NBA teammate on his title teams. Most of the greatest players didn't do that once, let alone four times.

And you know as well as I do that Duncan has never got to play with a superstar. Past-his-prime Robinson, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili have been his best players. All legends, all HoFers, all stars (I'm talking '97-'99 Robinson here), but not superstars. Just very well-rounded teams, teams that are historically nobodies when compared to the greats (the star-studded teams).

[tpols]

:bowdown:

It's also very telling that the Kobe stans point out "60+ wins every season" which isn't even true but blatantly look over the fact that when Duncan under performs, they lose in the Playoffs, early.

If all we're discussing is the regular season and Duncan's decline, what about the '94 Bulls, who still won 50+ games without the best player in the world? Or the Lakers when Kareem retired, who won 63 games.

Bro.. the spurs have won over 60 games with Duncan averaging 13/9 and while being much better offensively than defensively. The spurs could rattle off 60 in their sleep.. they need Duncan for the playoffs just like Bulls needed MJ. Give it a rest.

[red1]

OP you raise some interesting points. I have now come to the conclusion that duncan>kobe

[T_L_P]

Bro.. the spurs have won over 60 games with Duncan averaging 13/9 and while being much better offensively than defensively. The spurs could rattle off 60 in their sleep.. they need Duncan for the playoffs just like Bulls needed MJ. Give it a rest.

If that is the case, then this thread is worthless.

[tpols]

All of this is very true. I said they looked like superstars in certain years (Manu in '05 especially). But the fact still remains that Duncan never had an All-NBA teammate on his title teams. Most of the greatest players didn't do that once, let alone four times.

And you know as well as I do that Duncan has never got to play with a superstar. Past-his-prime Robinson, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili have been his best players. All legends, all HoFers, all stars (I'm talking '97-'99 Robinson here), but not superstars. Just very well-rounded teams, teams that are historically nobodies when compared to the greats (the star-studded teams).

Manu and parker are just as good as any 'superstar'.. you think if Duncan played with Allen Iverson or Vince Carter or Tmac he would have won more? The only thing theyre would have been more of is isos and inefficiency.

Parker and manu are extremely intelligent team players.. this superstars talk is nonsense when it comes to SA. They would rather have an extremely smart 20 ppg player w/ a well rounded game that spreads the rock than some shot jacking 'superstar' who isos and destroys their team philosophy that has made them so successful.

Which is why they go after euros.. parker, manu, splitter, diaw.. guys who know how to pass, cut, make reads and play fundamental basketball. Stop with this superstar talk.. Pop doesnt want egos of some superstar first option.. which is why duncan is so great, he has the ego of a role player.

[DCL]

there's no doubt that duncan has been impressive throughout his career. he could had retired 3 years ago, and he still would have had a legitimate argument to be ranked as the best PF ever. but i don't think people should discount popovich. the guy is old school, doesn't care who you are, gets in your mug and yells at your ass in front of 20,000 or a couple million if you ever do anything dumb in the game. he keeps everyone in check and instructs at a commanding level. i think ginobili or parker probably would had been ball hog chuckers if they were coached by another dude. but pop got all those guys playing team ball on day 1. and when you got your star players playing team ball, the whole team is going to follow that concept.

[Odinn]

It is gettin' sadder and sadder for Kobe-stans with each futile attempt.

[T_L_P]

there's no doubt that duncan has been impressive throughout his career. he could had retired 3 years ago, and he still would have had a legitimate argument to be ranked as the best PF ever. but i don't think people should discount popovich. the guy is old school, doesn't care who you are, gets in your mug and yells at your ass in front of 20,000 or a couple million if you ever do anything dumb in the game. he keeps everyone in check and instructs at a commanding level. i think ginobili or parker probably would had been ball hog chuckers if they were coached by another dude. but pop got all those guys playing team ball on day 1. and when you got your star players playing team ball, the whole team is going to follow that concept.

I agree, but I think Duncan and Popovich are a couple in that sense.

Duncan chose to be coached, and ultimately treated like any other player. If he really didn't want to be he could have said no, and either Popovich would have had to have changed, or they might have gotten rid of him.

Horry said it best: "When your coach shouts at the star, and the star encourages it, it leaves us no excuse."

Popovich helped implement the Spurs ethos, but Duncan is/was ultimately the one that made it work. Also, Duncan was instrumental in TP's/Manu's development. He gave them a lot of touches early on even when they looked hopeless.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Duncan made popovich not the other way around.
duncan is like a players coach out there. he constantly directs traffic and his unselfishness rubs off on his teammates.
Pop is still an all time great coach,maybe even top 3 all time but if he coached a guy like chuckbe as his best player he wouldnt have been as successful :confusedshrug:

[SCdac]

The fact the Spurs haven't won a title since Duncan was near his prime is telling.


This.

[no pun intended]

Duncan>Kobe>>>>>>LeBron

[BuffaloBill]

It was Duncan and Pop. But mostly Duncan.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Duncan's longevity is extremely overrated.

He constantly gets to rest & save himself for the playoffs due to playing on a stacked team..

The last time Duncan played more than 35 mpg he was 29..

For comparison Hakeem was still playing over 35mpg at the age of 36..

Duncan has 7 seasons of playing 35+ mpg, Kobe has 14 seasons of playing 35+ mpg. And then when you factor in that Kobe has had multiple 3peat runs to the finals on top of that while Duncan hasn't ever made b2b finals you begin to see why Duncan's longevity isn't that impressive.

[T_L_P]

Duncan's longevity is extremely overrated.

He's constantly gets to rest & save himself for the playoffs due to playing on a stacked team..

The last time Duncan played more than 35 mpg he was 29..

For comparison Hakeem was still playing over 35mpg at the age of 36..

Duncan has 7 seasons of playing 35+ mpg, Kobe has 14 seasons of playing 35+ mpg. And then when you factor in that Kobe has has multiple 3peat runs to the finals while Duncan hasn't ever made b2b finals you begin to see why Duncan's longevity isn't that impressive.

Shaq didn't play 35+ minutes in any of his last 9 seasons. Kareem in his last 7. Stockton in his last 6.

Kobe couldn't handle playing 33 MPG, because he needs to go out and get his.

You don't seem to understand how selfish the man is as a basketball player. Some people love and admire it, but to deny it is insane.

[Carbine]

Duncan's longevity is extremely overrated.

He's constantly gets to rest & save himself for the playoffs due to playing on a stacked team..

The last time Duncan played more than 35 mpg he was 29..

For comparison Hakeem was still playing over 35mpg at the age of 36..

Duncan has 7 seasons of playing 35+ mpg, Kobe has 14 seasons of playing 35+ mpg. And then when you factor in that Kobe has has multiple 3peat runs to the finals while Duncan hasn't ever made b2b finals you begin to see why Duncan's longevity isn't that impressive.

Hakeem played 49971 combined regular season/playoff minutes.

Shaq has 50016 combined minutes.

Duncan has played 52219 combined regular season/playoff minutes.

:confusedshrug:

[20Four]

Duncan>>>>>Kobe
Why bring kobe into this? You insecure? Go back and keep flipping burgers you cvnt :no:

[red1]

Shaq didn't play 35+ minutes in any of his last 9 seasons. Kareem in his last 7. Stockton in his last 6.

Kobe couldn't handle playing 33 MPG, because he needs to go out and get his.

You don't seem to understand how selfish the man is as a basketball player. Some people love and admire it, but to deny it is insane.
typical rapist mentality

[inclinerator]

both, pop's evolution as a coach cementing himself as the goat

-smak

[houston]

It's Duncan of course.Great players make great coaches. Spurs haven't won a title since 07 and should won one last year if it wasn't for Pop. He outcoach himself.


:oldlol: @ not playing with no superstar dude came into the NBA playing with a MVP and won 2 titles with that player. And had all-star quality teammates during title runs.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Shaq didn't play 35+ minutes in any of his last 9 seasons. Kareem in his last 7. Stockton in his last 6.

Kobe couldn't handle playing 33 MPG, because he needs to go out and get his.

You don't seem to understand how selfish the man is as a basketball player. Some people love and admire it, but to deny it is insane.

You are mistaken.

The lakers couldn't handle Kobe playing 33 mpg because it would equal failure for the lakers.

Do you really believe The lakers make 3 straight finals with Kobe playing anything less than 40+ mpg like he did in those playoffs?

Kobe did that while going to 3 straight finals as the man, something Duncan could only dream of, Duncan has benefitted from playing on stacked teams for 6-7 years now and is able to make the finals playing 35mpg in the playoffs..

Kobe had 3 straight finals trips while playing 40 mpg as a 30 year old.

14 seasons of 35+ mpg compared to 7 seasons of 35+ mpg..

Kobe was playing 43 mpg and 44mpg during 01 & 02. 2/3 years of the 3peat Kobe is averaging more minutes than Duncan ever has in the playoffs, and this was while coming off b2b & b2b2b finals runs.

Duncan, 6 playoff runs of 40 mpg (98-04)

Kobe, 10 playoff runs of 40mpg (01-10,12)

[T_L_P]

It's Duncan of course.Great players make great coaches. Spurs haven't won a title since 07 and should won one last year if it wasn't for Pop. He outcoach himself.


:oldlol: @ not playing with no superstar dude came into the NBA playing with a MVP and won 2 titles with that player. And had all-star quality teammates during title runs.

David Robinson '97-'03 resume: 14 / 10 / 2 / 1 / 2 / .466 FG%, two titles.

Is that a HoF resume?

You clearly don't get my point. The**** does it matter if Robinson was a superstar? He wasn't when Duncan got there. If we're saying Duncan got to play with a superstar, should we also say James got to play with one in Cleveland (Shaq?)

I admit he had great all-stars. When did I say otherwise? My post specifically used the word superstar.

God damn the simplest of concepts.

[lakerspng]

The combination of Pop and Duncan have established a consistency of teamwork, maturity, professionalism and excellence for the Spurs and that's where the success stems from. They both come from the same mentality and they compliment each other as player/coach. All the other players feed off it. Pop is one of the greatest coaches of all time and he has a player that perfectly carries his philosophy onto the court and instills it in his teammates. That's why no matter who they are, when they walk onto the spurs they become a cog in the system that allows them to expose their strengths and lessen their flaws. That's why even when Duncan's not playing a lot of minutes or is out for a few games, they don't miss a beat. That's an immeasurable facet of Duncan's resume and one of the things that makes him one of the best to ever play. Leadership. Poise. No statistical value whatsoever, but the difference between winning and losing. The kind of consistency in leadership the Spurs have had with Pop/Duncan is rare.

[Mure]

Didn't read, Duncan > Kobe.

[MrC1991]

There is so much Duncan talk on this forum now its crazy! Look at what you started robert_shaww.

[GimmeThat]

What can't Duncan do for you at the PF position?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-YTI_fbwEs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSnAvhvfniw

I once suspected that star powers and super star matters in the playoff.

I don't intend to change my suspicion

:crazysam:

[houston]

David Robinson '97-'03 resume: 14 / 10 / 2 / 1 / 2 / .466 FG%, two titles.

Is that a HoF resume?

You clearly don't get my point. The**** does it matter if Robinson was a superstar? He wasn't when Duncan got there. If we're saying Duncan got to play with a superstar, should we also say James got to play with one in Cleveland (Shaq?)

I admit he had great all-stars. When did I say otherwise? My post specifically used the word superstar.

God damn the simplest of concepts.


But Robinson was still a starter and making all-star and all-nba teams when Duncan first came

98' all-nba second team,all-star,all-defense 2nd team
99' would made the all-star team if they had one
2000' all-star,all-nba third team
2001' all-star,all-nba third team

02 and 03 still was the team second leading rebounder and second in block shots. While being a starter on the squad. Robinson was more of a defensive role during these years with the Spurs.

2003 Finals gave the Spurs 11 and 7 on 61% shooting. Still gave the team 2 blocks a game along with Duncan a frontline average 7 blacks a game in a NBA Finals:applause: the close out game to go along with Duncan 21/20/10 game gave him 13/17 on 75% shooting.:eek: Hell together they out rebounded the whole Nets team all together.:oldlol:

The fact remain Robinson was still valuable to the Spurs and help Duncan win 2 championships.

[AirFederer]

It is gettin' sadder and sadder for Kobe-stans with each futile attempt.
This.

:facepalm

[bdreason]

Pop is an all-time great coach, and definitely deserves his share of the credit. However, it's the players that play the games... and Duncan is an unbelievable player; even better than his stats and achievements imply.

[Anaximandro1]

OP needs to do his homework.


-David and Tim are the ones who made the Spurs great.

-Robinson kept the franchise alive and Duncan took it to the next level.


-Lakers and Jazz got totally owned by Duncan in 1999. Spurs won the title.

-Duncan missed the 2000 playoffs (knee injury). The Spurs lost 3-1 in the first round ... look at the Spurs' offensive rating.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bHoxDH1Z0R0/U1cAiKaUYMI/AAAAAAAACw4/DZn80W5O-_8/s1600/11.jpg


-The last time the Spurs won a title was in 2007, when Duncan was in his prime.

-Nowadays, Kawhi and Duncan's resurgence are the keys. Of course Parker, Manu, Splitter, Boris, etc. are doing a good job.



-Pop had a coaching record in the NBA of (17 - 47) when Duncan joined the Spurs in 1997.


-Duncan dropped 19 pt / 22 rb in the third game of his NBA career against Jordan's Bulls.

November 3, 1997 -> Spurs 83 - Bulls 87 (Duncan 19 pt / 22 rb) (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199711030CHI.html)


-Seventeen years later, Duncan dropped 27 pts/7 rb/ 3 as against Durant's Thunder in the WCF

May 19, 2014 -> WCF OKC 105 - Spurs 122 (Duncan 27 pt / 7 rb / 3 as) (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201405190SAS.html)


Still leading the pack at age 38.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-OB7zIS3gxwk/U35rLKvW2KI/AAAAAAAAC3Y/uXZyU4gfJbs/s1600/17.jpg


Make no mistake. Pop has done a good job, but he has had Duncan for his entire tenure. A player with team-first attitude ... and incredible talent.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-f-hLBkv6iHI/U35rLKSa2DI/AAAAAAAAC3c/13lOgCYtoGY/s1600/18.jpg

[NumberSix]

Duncan > Kobe

[T_L_P]

But Robinson was still a starter and making all-star and all-nba teams when Duncan first came

98' all-nba second team,all-star,all-defense 2nd team
99' would made the all-star team if they had one
2000' all-star,all-nba third team
2001' all-star,all-nba third team

02 and 03 still was the team second leading rebounder and second in block shots. While being a starter on the squad. Robinson was more of a defensive role during these years with the Spurs.

2003 Finals gave the Spurs 11 and 7 on 61% shooting. Still gave the team 2 blocks a game along with Duncan a frontline average 7 blacks a game in a NBA Finals:applause: the close out game to go along with Duncan 21/20/10 game gave him 13/17 on 75% shooting.:eek: Hell together they out rebounded the whole Nets team all together.:oldlol:

The fact remain Robinson was still valuable to the Spurs and help Duncan win 2 championships.

Very valuable. Incredibly valuable. Arguably the best defender from '98-''00. But not a superstar. :confusedshrug:

[Kiddlovesnets]

Its a combination of both, take out either one of them and the Spurs aint winning a title.

[T_L_P]

Why can't more teams by like the Spurs though? Not from a play-style standpoint, just in demeanor. No other team stresses family and hard work like them.

http://i.imgur.com/zyuxPQA.jpg

[BoutPractice]

Once he's out of the game, he'll benefit from the retirement boost and get treated like other legends before him. (Might get treated even better if they reveal he was gay all along or something like this :lol). The good gets emphasized, the bad gets forgotten.

No one cares anymore that Kareem was boring, that he underachieved in the 70s or that he was only the best player on at best 3 out of 6 of his championship teams. They just look at the ring count, MVPs, and scoring totals.

No one cares anymore that Magic didn't defend, few people bring up Tragic Johnson. They just look at the ring count, and a few Showtime assists.

No one cares that Hakeem got out of the first round about as often as Carmelo Anthony, and that he wasn't seen as the best center in the league for most of his career. They just look at that 2 year stretch where he was hyped as perfect in every way, the dream shake on Robinson, and assume Hakeem was always like this.

No one will care that Kobe was a chucker, never quite the clear cut best player in the league, and only the best player on 2 out of 5 championship teams. Kobe will forever be associated with 2 numbers: 5 rings, 81 points. Knowing how our memories work, it'll get muddled in the mind, even, people will start imagining he was scoring 81 points a game in the process of winning these 5 championships. They'll also talk about "clutch", "killer instinct" and similar things.

And of course, no one really cares the details of how Bill Russell got his 11 championships. It kind of speaks for itself. If he had a bad game here and there, if his teammates outscored him, if it was really Auerbach, those things rarely get mentioned.

Similarly no one will care about Duncan's "unexciting" game, or bring up Pop (do you hear people say Phil Jackson was responsible for Jordan or Kobe's success, and use this is a real argument to rank some other player over them?). They'll mainly see the good. And Duncan's "good" is on a whole different level, it's top 5 worthy stuff.

What they'll see in Duncan is simple: 4, maybe 5 titles, in which all things considered he was the best player on the team, and the only guy called Tim Duncan on the team (how many players have 4 rings as the best player or more? 4. Russell, Jordan, Mikan, and Duncan)... add to that the fact he may retire with the best ever winning percentage, or second best, and most playoff wins, of all time... all those playoff totals will look really good in retrospect... finally they'll see the 2 MVPs, and his legendary 2003 run, and assume he was like that for pretty much all of his career (which, in truth, he mostly was, compared to the effect of a similar illusion on other players). Any notion that Duncan is not one of the absolute top tier legends in the game will look ridiculous after he retires, I guarantee that. He's exactly the sort of player who outlasts trends and fans' need for cheap, immediate thrills.