Name your top 10 SG's of all time

[VengefulAngel]

Was looking at the other thread and was having a really hard time ordering my top 10.

So many greats SGs

MJ
Kobe
Jerry West
Dwyane Wade
George Gervin
AI
Tracy Mcgrady
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Ray Allen
Manu Ginobili
John Havlicek
Pistol Pete Maravich
Probably missed a ton of players. Not in order just chucking some names out there.

[MrC1991]

Pretty much agree with this list. HM Mitch Richmond and Joe Dumars

[navy]

Do AI and McGrady count?

[Solefade]

MJ
Kobe
Wade
West
AI
Gervin
Drexler
Reggie Miller
Ray
Manu

[VengefulAngel]

Do AI and McGrady count?

I think so, AI definitely wasn't a PG lol.

[VengefulAngel]

MJ
Kobe
Wade
West
AI
Gervin
Drexler
Reggie Miller
Ray
Manu

It's tough, this looks quite good.

[Smook A.]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Jerry West
5. Clyde Drexler
6. George Gervin
7. Allen Iverson
8. Ray Allen
9. Reggie Miller
10. Manu Ginobili

Honarable Mention: Pete Maravich, Earl Monroe

[VengefulAngel]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Jerry West
5. Clyde Drexler
6. George Gervin
7. Allen Iverson
8. Ray Allen
9. Reggie Miller
10. Manu Ginobili

Honarable Mention: Pete Maravich, Earl Monroe

That seems like the perfect list, minor position switch's here and there but overall looks good. Do you guys thinks any SG currently playing, who isn't on the list can get there at the end of their career?

[DaSeba5]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Jerry West
5. Clyde Drexler
6. George Gervin
7. Allen Iverson
8. Ray Allen
9. Reggie Miller
10. Manu Ginobili

Honarable Mention: Pete Maravich, Earl Monroe

I agree with this.

[Smook A.]

That seems like the perfect list, minor position switch's here and there but overall looks good. Do you guys thinks any SG currently playing, who isn't on the list can get there at the end of their career?
If this dude James Harden starts playing defense and doesn't play scared in the playoffs then yeah he can get there.

Guys like DeRozan, Klay Thompson, Oladipo, and Beal can get there too. All of them just need to work really hard.

[Solefade]

That seems like the perfect list, minor position switch's here and there but overall looks good. Do you guys thinks any SG currently playing, who isn't on the list can get there at the end of their career?


weak era for SG's tbh

[VengefulAngel]

weak era for SG's tbh

Yep agreed, there are a lot of SG'S masquerading as point guards who are quite good. (Cough: Russell Westbrook)

[Marchesk]

Sidney Moncrief is missing. Only non-big who has won the DPOTY twice.

[Marchesk]

And Wade has no case over West. West is consensus top 15.

[TheMarkMadsen]

MJ
Kobe
West
Wade
AI
Gervin (I consider him a SF)
Drexler
Dumars
Moncrief
Allen

Tough. I'm sure in left out some. Earl Monroe deserves a mention

[Cold soul]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Jerry West
5. Clyde Drexler
6. George Gervin
7. Allen Iverson
8. Ray Allen
9. Reggie Miller
10. Manu Ginobili

Honarable Mention: Pete Maravich, Earl Monroe


This list is close to perfect but switch Wade to West. Jerry West is in top 15 range all-time while Wade in top 20-25 range.

[iznogood]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Jerry West
5. Clyde Drexler
6. George Gervin
7. Manu Ginobili
8. Allen Iverson
9. Ray Allen
10. Mitch Richmond

[pauk]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Allen Iverson
6. Pete Maravich
7. Clyde Drexler
8. George Gervin
9. Reggie Miller
10. Ray Allen

If it was a matter of simply accolades then it would look different, but context... or "eye test" is important...

[Doctor Rivers]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Jerry West
5. Clyde Drexler
6. George Gervin
7. Manu Ginobili
8. Allen Iverson
9. Ray Allen
10. Mitch Richmond

[VengefulAngel]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Allen Iverson
6. Pete Maravich
7. Clyde Drexler
8. George Gervin
9. Reggie Miller
10. Ray Allen

Haha went with pure shooters, why Reggie in front of Ray?

[Springsteen]

1 - harden
2- jameer nelson
3 - stephenson
4 - smush parker
5 - josh smith

[TheMarkMadsen]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Allen Iverson
6. Pete Maravich
7. Clyde Drexler
8. George Gervin
9. Reggie Miller
10. Ray Allen

If it was a matter of simply accolades then it would look different, but context... or "eye test" is important...

:applause: for also having Iverson in the top 5.

Where he belongs

[pauk]

Haha went with pure shooters, why Reggie in front of Ray?

Just an opinion again and i am biased ofcourse i admit, but i do think he was a better shooter (and greatest shooter of all time), Reggie could get his shot of with utmost comfort from any angle / being of balance and so on, Ray needs to go straight up to be as accurate, he is not as good of an of balance shooter as Reggie or especially Larry Bird was, they could get it of left handed, right handed, hook, runner, float it in etc.... Reggie was also much more of a.... how do you say it... oh right, ALPHA... a cocky, douchebag, killer, assassin, competitor.... who would make the likes of even Jordan choke at times as he got under their skin...

...and oh, i will sound like a Kobe stan now but i have to, Reggie unlike Ray refused to ringchase, "collude" etc. he was extremly loyal, he turned down so many of those oppurtunities because of his loyalty for Pacers.... when he retired every single person on the planet showed more respect to him that day than probably any other player i ever seen imo.... the entire crowd and even the opposing team took a timeout just to go to the middle of court and clap for a long while, even the reffs and so on didnt mind at all...

Reggie was better and everybody (if old enough) knows it... its hard to explain if you havent watched reasonably amount of both...

Ramble this, ramble that.... TL;DR .... REGGIE > RAY ALLEN...... a player who did admit his idol was Reggie and that he stole all his moves, for Ray Allen to exist there had to be Reggie, so Reggie has to come first in my list...

[navy]

Ray Allen is actually clutch. Reggie is just pretend.

Stats
Rings
Clutch gene
Longevity
Career

Ray Allen >>>> Reggie

[r0drig0lac]

MJ
Kobe
West
Wade
Drexler
Iverson
Gervin
T Mac
Ginobili
Allen

[D.J.]

1)Michael Jordan
2)Kobe Bryant
3)Jerry West
4)Allen Iverson
5)Dwyane Wade
6)Clyde Drexler
7)George Gervin
8)Ray Allen
9)Mitch Richmond
10)Pete Maravich

[pauk]

Ray Allen is actually clutch. Reggie is just pretend.

Stats
Rings
Clutch gene
Longevity
Career

Ray Allen >>>> Reggie

Ray Allen is clutch, dont say he wasnt.... but Reggie was even more clutch and he would just before that clutch shot tell you where, when & how he was gone hit it... and then hit it... and then walk up to you and talk some more so you can go home and think about him all night trying to sleep... and then you would play him again and that will make you (even though you are better) choke due to being beaten mentally...... He was one of those guys who would NEVER allow Lebron etc. even at the age of 40 to be the go-to-guy in the 4th quarter/clutch...

Intangibles like this you young bucks dont understand.... Reggie was the shit... the alpha of alphas

Ray Allen is just a ringchasing spot up shooter compared to Reggie....

[stalkerforlife]

Ray Allen is actually clutch. Reggie is just pretend.

Stats
Rings
Clutch gene
Longevity
Career

Ray Allen >>>> Reggie

Kevin Garnett
Paul Pierce
Lebron James
Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Rajon Rondo

:biggums:

[TheMarkMadsen]

I don't see an argument for Drexler over AI

[Cold soul]

And Wade has no case over West. West is consensus top 15.

This ^^^.

[atljonesbro]

And Wade has no case over West. West is consensus top 15.
Chill with the nostalgia. You can easily make a case for Wade over West. It's much harder the other way around

[D.J.]

Chill with the nostalgia. You can easily make a case for Wade over West. It's much harder the other way around


All-NBA 1st teams- West(10) Wade(2)
All-Defensive 1st teams- West(4) Wade(0)
Runner up for MVP- West(4) Wade(0)
Finals Appearances- West(9) Wade(4)

[atljonesbro]

All-NBA 1st teams- West(10) Wade(2)
All-Defensive 1st teams- West(4) Wade(0)
Runner up for MVP- West(4) Wade(0)
Finals Appearances- West(9) Wade(4)
Championships

3/4

This guy West went 1/9.

1 FOR 9. If ANY player in the current era ever did that he would never be considered an all time great. Nostalgia is blinding you. Guy is a MASSIVE choker. 1 for ****ing 9, absolutely embarassing. People sh*t on LeBron for losing in 2 of 4 finals lol.

[stalkerforlife]

All-NBA 1st teams- West(10) Wade(2)
All-Defensive 1st teams- West(4) Wade(0)
Runner up for MVP- West(4) Wade(0)
Finals Appearances- West(9) Wade(4)

:roll:

LeOuch.

[Duggrr]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Jerry West
5. Clyde Drexler
6. George Gervin
7. Allen Iverson
8. Ray Allen
9. Reggie Miller
10. Manu Ginobili

Honarable Mention: Pete Maravich, Earl Monroe
Agree with everything, but i'd swap Ginobli for Dumars.

[aj1987]

1)Michael Jordan
2)Kobe Bryant
3)Jerry West
4)Allen Iverson
5)Dwyane Wade
6)Clyde Drexler
7)George Gervin
8)Ray Allen
9)Mitch Richmond
10)Pete Maravich
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[D.J.]

Championships

3/4

This guy West went 1/9.

1 FOR 9. If ANY player in the current era ever did that he would never be considered an all time great. Nostalgia is blinding you. Guy is a MASSIVE choker. 1 for ****ing 9, absolutely embarassing. People sh*t on LeBron for losing in 2 of 4 finals lol.


Ok? I just provided multiple reasons why West > Wade and you think it's nostalgia? Care to provide anything other than 1/9 or is that all you can cling onto?

[atljonesbro]

Ok? I just provided multiple reasons why West > Wade and you think it's nostalgia? Care to provide anything other than 1/9 or is that all you can cling onto?
Wade is infinitely more succesful in the finals and has better stats. West stats are inflated in an era where 6'5 elgin baylor averaged 20 rpg. In the current era West's stats wouldn't be near as good as they were. Pretty much all that needs to be said

1 for 9 should be a massive negative on your resume, which it is. Easily puts him under Wade imo. That's one of the worst stats on a legend I've ever witnessed.

[D.J.]

Wade is infinitely more succesful in the finals and has better stats. West stats are inflated in an era where 6'5 elgin baylor averaged 20 rpg. In the current era West's stats wouldn't be near as good as they were. Pretty much all that needs to be said

1 for 9 should be a massive negative on your resume, which it is. Easily puts him under Wade imo. That's one of the worst stats on a legend I've ever witnessed.


Wade has only been to 4 Finals and of the 3 he did win, he was a sidekick in 2 of them. You don't get to conveniently punish a guy for playing in another era. You still have not successfully refuted the stats I posted that clearly put West over Wade. If Wade was so great, why does he have only 2 All-NBA 1st teams? Why has he never made an All-Defensive 1st team? Why has he never been so much as a runner up(never mind actually winning) for MVP?

[atljonesbro]

Wade has only been to 4 Finals and of the 3 he did win, he was a sidekick in 2 of them. You don't get to conveniently punish a guy for playing in another era. You still have not successfully refuted the stats I posted that clearly put West over Wade. If Wade was so great, why does he have only 2 All-NBA 1st teams? Why has he never made an All-Defensive 1st team? Why has he never been so much as a runner up(never mind actually winning) for MVP?
Much less teams in the league = Much less players = Much more chance to get on All NBA Teams.

Basically much less competition than Wade.

[Psileas]

Championships

3/4

This guy West went 1/9.

1 FOR 9. If ANY player in the current era ever did that he would never be considered an all time great. Nostalgia is blinding you. Guy is a MASSIVE choker. 1 for ****ing 9, absolutely embarassing. People sh*t on LeBron for losing in 2 of 4 finals lol.

:facepalm
I guess Jordan's opponents were all-time chokers, too. They went 0-6 against him, after all.

But thank you for showing us that Havlicek with his 8/8 trumps everyone in the clutch factor, while West was a choker...:rolleyes:

[atljonesbro]

:facepalm
I guess Jordan's opponents were all-time chokers, too. They went 0-6 against him, after all.

But thank you for showing us that Havlicek with his 8/8 trumps everyone in the clutch factor, while West was a choker...:rolleyes:
How would LeBron be perceived today if he were 1 for 9 in the finals? He'd never hear the end of it and it'd damage his legacy. Him going 2 for 4 damaged his legacy. No free passes.

[Milbuck]

All-NBA 1st teams- West(10) Wade(2)
All-Defensive 1st teams- West(4) Wade(0)
Runner up for MVP- West(4) Wade(0)
Finals Appearances- West(9) Wade(4)
Wade played against the 2nd greatest shooting guard ever in Kobe, and a perennial MVP contender in Lebron. He's also one Lebron chokefest away from having 4 rings and being undefeated in the finals. Excuse me for not putting too much stock in the "advantages" you posted for West.

2009 Wade > any version of West

[D.J.]

Much less teams in the league = Much less players = Much more chance to get on All NBA Teams.

Basically much less competition than Wade.


You unknowingly just made even more of a case for West. :oldlol: Fewer players means the quality is going to be much higher, yet he still managed 10 All-NBA 1st teams and 4 All-Defensive 1st teams.

[atljonesbro]

You unknowingly just made even more of a case for West. :oldlol: Fewer players means the quality is going to be much higher, yet he still managed 10 All-NBA 1st teams and 4 All-Defensive 1st teams.
The league was much less popular and there was much less money to be made so naturally there was a far smaller talent pool. And the talent level of the league back then clearly wasn't near today's level :lol

I mean he played in a league with 8-14 teams for many years so there's a much easier chance to get on all NBA teams then playing in a league with 30 teams.

[D.J.]

Wade played against the 2nd greatest shooting guard ever in Kobe, and a perennial MVP contender in Lebron. He's also one Lebron chokefest away from having 4 rings and being undefeated in the finals. Excuse me for not putting too much stock in the "advantages" you posted for West.

2009 Wade > any version of West


Wade's best season was 30/8/5 and that was his only season over 27.7 PPG. West had seasons of 31/8/5, 31/6/5, 31/7/6, and 31/8/5. Try again.

[atljonesbro]

Wade's best season was 30/8/5 and that was his only season over 27.7 PPG. West had seasons of 31/8/5, 31/6/5, 31/7/6, and 31/8/5. Try again.
6'5 Elgin Baylor 20 RPG :lol :lol :lol INFLATED STATS

[aj1987]

Wade has only been to 4 Finals and of the 3 he did win, he was a sidekick in 2 of them. You don't get to conveniently punish a guy for playing in another era. You still have not successfully refuted the stats I posted that clearly put West over Wade. If Wade was so great, why does he have only 2 All-NBA 1st teams? Why has he never made an All-Defensive 1st team? Why has he never been so much as a runner up(never mind actually winning) for MVP?
Jerry West was a sidekick for his one and ONLY ring. Wade didn't get too many All-NBA First selections, because he had to beat Kobe. You know, the guy who's the ins greatest SG of all time. Same with All-Defensive First Teams. Dude was genuinely robbed of of 2 All-D first teams ('09 and '10). In a league without Kobe, Wade would've made the All-NBA first teams in '05, '06, '07, '09, '10, '11, and '12. Anyways, if Wade wins a ring this year averaging 20/5/5, he's over West without a doubt. Until then, I have West at #3.

Also, AI over Wade? That's just retarded. AI has literally NO case over Wade.

[D.J.]

The league was much less popular and there was much less money to be made so naturally there was a far smaller talent pool. And the talent level of the league back then clearly wasn't near today's level :lol

I mean he played in a league with 8-14 teams for many years so there's a much easier chance to get on all NBA teams then playing in a league with 30 teams.


Still haven't refuted anything I've said. And you have the balls to point to popularity and money. :oldlol: :facepalm

[Psileas]

How would LeBron be perceived today if he were 1 for 9 in the finals? He'd never hear the end up it and it'd damage his legacy. Him going 2 for 4 damaged his legacy. No free passes.

First of all, I don't care how he'd be perceived by others. I don't care about others' criteria. How I'd view him depends on how he'd perform. How was LeBron perceived when he lost to Orlando in 2009, after averaging like 39/8/8? I, for one, was impressed and never held it against him. Same with West. There are clutch teams and clutch players. The 60's Lakers may not have been the clutchest team, but West definitely was up there.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Why are people blaming one player for takin away wades all d teams

There are 2 guard spots

[atljonesbro]

Still haven't refuted anything I've said. And you have the balls to point to popularity and money. :oldlol: :facepalm
Yeah I did. Around 12 players on each team. We'll average out about 12 or so teams in the league for West's career. 144 players in the league, divide that by 5. So about 28.8 SGs in the league compared to 360 players in the league for Wade so 72 SGs in the league. Much less competition so much more of a chance to get on All NBA teams.

[D.J.]

Jerry West was a sidekick for his one and ONLY ring. Wade didn't get too many All-NBA First selections, because he had to beat Kobe. You know, the guy who's the ins greatest SG of all time. Same with All-Defensive First Teams. Dude was genuinely robbed of of 2 All-D first teams ('09 and '10). In a league without Kobe, Wade would've made the All-NBA first teams in '05, '06, '07, '09, '10, '11, and '12. Anyways, if Wade wins a ring this year averaging 20/5/5, he's over West without a doubt. Until then, I have West at #3.

Also, AI over Wade? That's just retarded. AI has literally NO case over Wade.


More excuses to knock West and prop up Wade. All stats I provided show West > Wade. Numbers, accolades all favor West.

As for Iverson, he won an MVP, took an offensively challenged team to the Finals, won 4 scoring titles, and has more All-NBA 1st team appearances. You can argue you'd be better off building your team around Wade, but the better and more dominant player is still Iverson. Just like you'd still rank Iverson over Kidd, even though Kidd is the smarter option to build around.

[atljonesbro]

More excuses to knock West and prop up Wade. All stats I provided show West > Wade. Numbers, accolades all favor West.

As for Iverson, he won an MVP, took an offensively challenged team to the Finals, won 4 scoring titles, and has more All-NBA 1st team appearances. You can argue you'd be better off building your team around Wade, but the better and more dominant player is still Iverson. Just like you'd still rank Iverson over Kidd, even though Kidd is the smarter option to build around.
Stats are barely better than Wade's in an inflated statistical era. Wade's stats >>>>>>>>>> West's.

[D.J.]

Yeah I did. Around 12 players on each team. We'll average out about 12 or so teams in the league for West's career. 144 players in the league, divide that by 5. So about 28.8 SGs in the league compared to 360 players in the league for Wade so 72 SGs in the league. Much less competition so much more of a chance to get on All NBA teams.


Fewer players means the few who do play are of much higher quality. You can think you've successfully refuted anything I've said, but you clearly have not. All numbers and accolades favor West. The only SGs better than West are Jordan and Kobe.

[atljonesbro]

Fewer players means the few who do play are of much higher quality. You can think you've successfully refuted anything I've said, but you clearly have not. All numbers and accolades favor West. The only SGs better than West are Jordan and Kobe.
Fewer =/= better.

[aj1987]

More excuses to knock West and prop up Wade. All stats I provided show West > Wade. Numbers, accolades all favor West.
That's why I said West can still be ranked higher than Wade. Also, you conveniently forgot that West was a role player for the ONLY ring he won.


As for Iverson, he won an MVP, took an offensively challenged team to the Finals, won 4 scoring titles, and has more All-NBA 1st team appearances. You can argue you'd be better off building your team around Wade, but the better and more dominant player is still Iverson. Just like you'd still rank Iverson over Kidd, even though Kidd is the smarter option to build around.
The MVP he stole from Shaq? Yeah, ok.

More All-NBA First teams? By one. Wade has 3 All-NBA Third teams. AI has one. Wade is an 8x All-NBA team member. AI? 1. Wade has 3 rings. AI? 0. Wade has 3 All-Defensive teams. AI? 0. Wade has 1 FMVP. AI? 0. Wade just posted the highest FG% for a guard in the past 30 odd years. AI's career high is 46%.


Fewer players means the few who do play are of much higher quality. You can think you've successfully refuted anything I've said, but you clearly have not. All numbers and accolades favor West. The only SGs better than West are Jordan and Kobe.
'Cause Bob Couse and Hal Greer are better than Kobe, T-Mac, etc. right?

[Milbuck]

Wade's best season was 30/8/5 and that was his only season over 27.7 PPG. West had seasons of 31/8/5, 31/6/5, 31/7/6, and 31/8/5. Try again.
"Try again" :oldlol:

You're delusional if you think West would put up those kinds of seasons during Wade's time. And even more delusional if you think prime Wade wouldn't shit on the league in the 60s.

Prime Shaq would average his usual 25-30ppg, 10-12 rpg in the 60s, right?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Is this aj guy really going to call Jerry West a "role player" during the playoff run where he averaged 23/5/9 and then prop up wade for his rings in the very next sentence

:biggums:

[D.J.]

Stats are barely better than Wade's in an inflated statistical era. Wade's stats >>>>>>>>>> West's.


Average shooting percentage in the league in the 60s and early 70s was around 43-44%. West was consistently in the high 40s. Average shooting percentage in the league in the mid-late 2000s was 45-46% and Wade was shooting similar percentages to West.

Average defensive rating when West played was in the mid 90s. Average defensive rating when Wade played was over 105. Yet with tougher defense, West scored more at a more consistent rate.

[D.J.]

That's why I said West can still be ranked higher than Wade. Also, you conveniently forgot that West was a role player for the ONLY ring he won.


You mean a role player who averaged 25.8 PPG/9.7 APG/4.2 RPG during the regular season?



The MVP he stole from Shaq? Yeah, ok.


Iverson deserved his MVP. And I'm sure you probably feel Dwight should've won over Rose in '11.



More All-NBA First teams? By one. Wade has 3 All-NBA Third teams. AI has one. Wade is an 8x All-NBA team member. AI? 1. Wade has 3 rings. AI? 0. Wade has 3 All-Defensive teams. AI? 0. Wade has 1 FMVP. AI? 0. Wade just posted the highest FG% for a guard in the past 30 odd years. AI's career high is 46%.


Ok? Chauncey Billups has a Finals MVP too. Bruce Bowen has more All-Defensive teams. Iverson is an MVP winner with 4 scoring titles and is a career 26/6 player.



'Cause Bob Couse and Hal Greer are better than Kobe, T-Mac, etc. right?


Creating a false argument.



"Try again" :oldlol:

You're delusional if you think West would put up those kinds of seasons during Wade's time. And even more delusional if you think prime Wade wouldn't shit on the league in the 60s.

Prime Shaq would average his usual 25-30ppg, 10-12 rpg in the 60s, right?


You mean West, a player who could shoot like there was no tomorrow and get to the line 10 times a game back then couldn't put up similar numbers in a game with no handchecking and still retaining the ability to create?

[aj1987]

Is this aj guy really going to call Jerry West a "role player" during the playoff run where he averaged 23/5/9 and then prop up wade for his rings in the very next sentence

:biggums:
Since you're always retarded. That guy called Wade a role-player in '12. Wade averaged 25/4/5 @ 53% TS. West averaged 23/5/9 @ 46% TS.

Also, pace. 117 to 91.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Since you're always retarded. That guy called Wade a role-player in '12. Wade averaged 25/4/5 @ 53% TS. West averaged 23/5/9 @ 46% TS.

Also, pace. 117 to 91.

I'm always reminded of your intelligence when you immediately respond to anybody slightly disagreeing with you as a "retard" "fakkit" etc

Represent for the mature folks

[aj1987]

You mean a role player who averaged 25.8 PPG/9.7 APG/4.2 RPG during the regular season?
Since when do RS stats have any bearing to Playoff stats. Also, pace.

BTW, Wade averaged 22/5/5 on 50% at a MUCH slower pace.


Iverson deserved his MVP. And I'm sure you probably feel Dwight should've won over Rose in '11.
Nope. LeBron should've won it.



Ok? Chauncey Billups has a Finals MVP too. Bruce Bowen has more All-Defensive teams. Iverson is an MVP winner with 4 scoring titles and is a career 26/6 player.
What the **** are you even talking about. Wade has what all 3 of those players have. Scoring title, Rings, FMVP, All-D selections, etc. You needed to bring up 3 players to compare to the achievements that ONLY Wade has.


Creating a false argument.
How? Wade played against MUCH better competition and that's a FACT. The centers back then were amazing. Not the guards.


I'm always reminded of your intelligence when you immediately respond to anybody slightly disagreeing with you as a "retard" "fakkit" etc

Represent for the mature folks
I've never used the word "fakkit", retard.

If you don't want to be called a retard, do some research next time before responding to posts. I don't care if people call me a retard when I'm wrong. Stop being a sensitive bitch.

[D.J.]

Since you're always retarded. That guy called Wade a role-player in '12. Wade averaged 25/4/5 @ 53% TS. West averaged 23/5/9 @ 46% TS.

Also, pace. 117 to 91.


Defensive rating in 1972- 97.9
Defensive rating in 2012- 104.6


Wade also missed 17 games and played only 33 MPG to West's 38 MPG. Wade clearly became a role player to LeBron in '12.

[JohnFreeman]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Jerry West
5. Clyde Drexler
6. George Gervin
7. Allen Iverson
8. Ray Allen
9. Reggie Miller
10. Manu Ginobili

Honarable Mention: Pete Maravich, Earl Monroe
My list.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Since when do RS stats have any bearing to Playoff stats. Also, pace.

BTW, Wade averaged 22/5/5 on 50% at a MUCH slower pace.


Nope. LeBron should've won it.



What the **** are you even talking about. Wade has what all 3 of those players have. Scoring title, Rings, FMVP, All-D selections, etc. You needed to bring up 3 players to compare to the achievements that ONLY Wade has.


How? Wade played against MUCH better competition and that's a FACT. The centers back then were amazing. Not the guards.


I've never used the word "fakkit", retard.

If you don't want to be called a retard, do some research next time before responding to posts.

You should really stop using the word retard. It's kind of offensive to heat fans

[robert_shaww]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Manu Ginobili
6. Clyde Drexler
7. George Gervin
8. Allen Iverson
9. Ray Allen
10. Reggie Miller

[aj1987]

Defensive rating in 1972- 97.9
Defensive rating in 2012- 104.6


Wade also missed 17 games and played only 33 MPG to West's 38 MPG. Wade clearly became a role player to LeBron in '12.
Pace in 1972 - 112 (league average)
Pace in 2012 - 91.3


If adjusted for pace and minutes, Wade's stats would >>>>>>> '72 West's stats.


You should really stop using the word retard. It's kind of offensive to heat fans
I'm sorry, but you took offense to me using the word retard. Wasn't a Heat fan who took offense. Clearly, Kobetards are retarded.

[D.J.]

Since when do RS stats have any bearing to Playoff stats. Also, pace.

BTW, Wade averaged 22/5/5 on 50% at a MUCH slower pace.


How convenient you want to leave out RS stats to fit your agenda. Also, defensive rating. Significantly lower when West played.



Nope. LeBron should've won it.


Nope, Rose should've won it. 25/8/4 while leading Chicago to 62 wins with Boozer and Noah missing nearly 60 games combined.



What the **** are you even talking about. Wade has what all 3 of those players have. Scoring title, Rings, FMVP, All-D selections, etc. You needed to bring up 3 players to compare to the achievements that ONLY Wade has.


Not sure what you're trying to prove. Wade has 1 scoring title and only 1 Finals MVP. All-Defensive doesn't automatically put him above Iverson. Bowen has more All-Defensive selections too. Bringing up 3 players doesn't make Wade better. Sorry.



How? Wade played against MUCH better competition and that's a FACT. The centers back then were amazing. Not the guards.


There were only 2 All-NBA teams until '89. Things would look much different if there was a third team. And even with only 2, West was still regularly on the 1st team.

[D.J.]

Pace in 1972 - 112 (league average)
Pace in 2012 - 91.3


If adjusted for pace and minutes, Wade's stats would >>>>>>> '72 West's stats.


And even with a higher pace, the defensive rating was significantly lower when West played.

[aj1987]

How convenient you want to leave out RS stats to fit your agenda. Also, defensive rating. Significantly lower when West played.
Adjust Wade's stats for pacer and minutes, they's be much better than West's.



Nope, Rose should've won it. 25/8/4 while leading Chicago to 62 wins with Boozer and Noah missing nearly 60 games combined.
Been done to death. Not going to argue about that crap again.



Not sure what you're trying to prove. Wade has 1 scoring title and only 1 Finals MVP. All-Defensive doesn't automatically put him above Iverson. Bowen has more All-Defensive selections too. Bringing up 3 players doesn't make Wade better. Sorry.
:facepalm

How many FMVP's does AI have? Rings? All-Defensive teams?

1 MVP and 4 scoring titles won't put him above Wade, especially considering the FACT that AI was a low efficiency volume scorer.

Wade is a better rebounder, a better defender, extremely underrated passer, MUCH more efficient, etc. He's a damn good scorer as well.

Sorry, but 3 rings, 1 FMVP >>>>>>> 1 MVP.

Wade is a LOT better than AI and it's actually not even close.


There were only 2 All-NBA teams until '89. Things would look much different if there was a third team. And even with only 2, West was still regularly on the 1st team.
Still doesn't change the fact that the guards back then sucked ass.


And even with a higher pace, the defensive rating was significantly lower when West played.
Again, pace. what don't you understand? Also, you can't just compare DRTG across eras.

1972 PPG - 110.2 (league average)
2012 PPG - 96.3

[Kblaze8855]

Jerry West in back to back finals losses put up....


53 points(10 assists)
41 points
24
40
39
26
42/13/12 game 7
33
34
34/9 including his famous halfcourt shot at the buzzer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVGIVgVRw6g

Which these days would have been a 3....giving the Lakers a 2-1 lead in the series
He follows that up with...

37 points 18 assists and 5 rebounds
20/4(worst game)
33/13/6
28/6/5

Put 09 Wade in the 60s...he wouldnt do much if any more than that. And all he would get for it is people today saying he wouldnt do it today.


What is Wade really gonna do that West didnt? Have 58/10 instead of 53 and 10? Have 60/16/16 instead of West 40+ triple double?

Hell...

Would Wade still be in the NBA given 60s medical care? Hes resting sections of the year given millions of dollars and the magic of modern doctors. Wade doesnt strike me as the type to hold up in those days.

[JohnFreeman]

Jerry West in back to back finals losses put up....


53 points(10 assists)
41 points
24
40
39
26
42/13/12 game 7
33
34
34/9 including his famous halfcourt shot at the buzzer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVGIVgVRw6g

Which these days would have been a 3....giving the Lakers a 2-1 lead in the series
He follows that up with...

37 points 18 assists and 5 rebounds
20/4(worst game)
33/13/6
28/6/5

Put 09 Wade in the 60s...he wouldnt do much if any more than that. And all he would get for it is people today saying he wouldnt do it today.


What is Wade really gonna do that West didnt? Have 58/10 instead of 53 and 10? Have 60/16/16 instead of West 40+ triple double?

Hell...

Would Wade still be in the NBA given 60s medical care? Hes resting sections of the year given millions of dollars and the magic of modern doctors. Wade doesnt strike me as the type to hold up in those days.
Wade > West

[SHAQisGOAT]

Considering everything, career all-time:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Clyde Drexler
6. Allen Iverson
7. George Gervin (gets underrated plenty, could even be higher.. check out his career and his play)
8. Sidney Moncrief (getting overlooked like crazy here smdh)
9. Joe Dumars (also getting underrated/forgotten here)
10. Ray Allen/Earl Monroe*

HM: Reggie Miller, Pete Maravich, Sam Jones*, Manu Ginobili, Mitch Richmmond, David Thompson, Vince Carter, Hal Greer.......

Primes/peaks would be different though, even 1/2 dudes mentioned in the HM above, could be top10.

*Edit: Shit, now that I really thought about it, Sam Jones deserves to be in that lower half of the top10, probably 9th or 10th, bouncing Ray-Ray out of the top10.

[Kblaze8855]

Feel free to say it again. The book on that issue is pretty much written. The Heat could win 3 more rings I doubt Wade goes any higher than Hondo. And hes never been ranked over West either. Just a lot of talk for nothing really.

Once you get far enough behind your teams #1 far as the best player little you do even gets credited. Wade winning rings as a 16/5/4 player or whatever he was last playoffs is gonna hurt his standing not help it in the eyes of people like those here who will find any reaon to hate on the past.

The ISH of 2034 is gonna clown the hell outta Wade. It wont be fair. But its gonna happen.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Pace in 1972 - 112 (league average)
Pace in 2012 - 91.3


If adjusted for pace and minutes, Wade's stats would >>>>>>> '72 West's stats.


I'm sorry, but you took offense to me using the word retard. Wasn't a Heat fan who took offense. Clearly, Kobetards are retarded.


You're too dumb to realize when somebody is sneek dissing you. :roll:

Keep up your convincing "****ing retards wade da best 1 year peak eva omg 09 wade da goat" argument. It's working well

[aj1987]

You're too dumb to realize when somebody is sneek dissing you. :roll:

Keep up your convincing "****ing retards wade da best 1 year peak eva omg 09 wade da goat" argument. It's working well
Holy shit, you're doing it again. Stop being a retard. I said I have West at #3. Higher than Wade. :facepalm

Retard.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Just to remind folks here..

Sidney Moncrief was once the best SG in the league, before injuries and Jordan's arrival, many on your lists can't claim that. He has 5 all-nba teams including 1st once (with the likes of Magic, Gervin, Isiah or Jordan in the league), he made 4 all-defensive 1st and won 2 DPOY's, also was 5 times top10 in MVP voting, including 4th once. He's arguably the greatest defensive guard ever, he was averaging around 21/6/5 on great efficiency in his prime, and had some great playoff runs while leading his team deep, one of the few guards to lead his team in points, rebounds and assists, for a season, also. His career was cut short by recurring injuries when he was still relatively young but to me he's top10 and above some of those more known names.

Joe Dumars has two rings and a FMVP, he was putting like 20/5 in his prime, making all-defensive 1st and even 2nd all-nba once, not the greatest longevity but solid enough and had some good post-season runs... All-in-all just can't put the likes of Ray Allen or Reggie Miller above.

Earl Monroe also had a really good prime/peak and even got to win a title as a good contributor.

George Gervin had a stellar career and he's close to the top5 here.

I'll say it again though, if it was only primes/peaks my list would've been different.

[Boston C's]

Just to remind folks here..

Sidney Moncrief was once the best SG in the league, before injuries and Jordan's arrival, many on your lists can't claim that. He has 5 all-nba teams including 1st once (with the likes of Magic, Gervin, Isiah or Jordan in the league), he made 4 all-defensive 1st and won 2 DPOY's, also was 5 times top10 in MVP voting, including 4th once. He's arguably the greatest defensive guard ever, he was averaging around 21/6/5 on great efficiency in his prime, and had some great playoff runs while leading his team deep, one of the few guards to lead his team in points, rebounds and assists, for a season, also. His career was cut short by recurring injuries when he was still relatively young but to me he's top10 and above some of those more known names.

Joe Dumars has two rings and a FMVP, he was putting like 20/5 in his prime, making all-defensive 1st and even 2nd all-nba once, not the greatest longevity but solid enough and had some good post-season runs... All-in-all just can't put the likes of Ray Allen or Reggie Miller above.

Earl Monroe also had a really good prime/peak and even got to win a title as a good contributor.

George Gervin had a stellar career and he's close to the top5 here.

I'll say it again though, if it was only primes/peaks my list would've been different.

I mean its your opinion and its a solid one but for me I'd def put allen above moncrief and dumars probably reggie too but like I said its your opinion

[tanner892]

1-Jordan
2-Kobe
3-West
4-Wade
5-Iverson
6-Ray Allen
7-Drexler
8-Manu
9-Gervin
10-Reggie

[Boston C's]

Just an opinion again and i am biased ofcourse i admit, but i do think he was a better shooter (and greatest shooter of all time), Reggie could get his shot of with utmost comfort from any angle / being of balance and so on, Ray needs to go straight up to be as accurate, he is not as good of an of balance shooter as Reggie or especially Larry Bird was, they could get it of left handed, right handed, hook, runner, float it in etc.... Reggie was also much more of a.... how do you say it... oh right, ALPHA... a cocky, douchebag, killer, assassin, competitor.... who would make the likes of even Jordan choke at times as he got under their skin...

...and oh, i will sound like a Kobe stan now but i have to, Reggie unlike Ray refused to ringchase, "collude" etc. he was extremly loyal, he turned down so many of those oppurtunities because of his loyalty for Pacers.... when he retired every single person on the planet showed more respect to him that day than probably any other player i ever seen imo.... the entire crowd and even the opposing team took a timeout just to go to the middle of court and clap for a long while, even the reffs and so on didnt mind at all...

Reggie was better and everybody (if old enough) knows it... its hard to explain if you havent watched reasonably amount of both...

Ramble this, ramble that.... TL;DR .... REGGIE > RAY ALLEN...... a player who did admit his idol was Reggie and that he stole all his moves, for Ray Allen to exist there had to be Reggie, so Reggie has to come first in my list...

Pauk I'm not gonna sit here and be like its blasphemous to put reggie above ray even though I wouldn't do it but most of what you said about ray is false...firstly he didn't collude with boston, he actually was extremely disappointed and did not want to be traded there when it first happened...ray was more intent on mentoring durant and helping the sonics make a playoff push next season miami is a different story but boston was not anything close to colluding...k.g didnt go to boston until he knew ray was there because before ray was traded he wanted no part of the celtics...as for ray shooting just straight up thats honestly complete bullshit dude ray can hit any shot from anywhere on any angle and was always able to do that especially in his prime idk how you could forget that also your bolded is just asinine you have an opinion but its not the end all be all man a lot of ppl think ray was better thats their opinion...and for ray just being a spot up shooter even you know in his prime that was false...dude was a scoring machine and could fill it up with the best of them with anyway possible...off the dribble, catch and shoot, screens, put a smaller guy on him he'll post him up...ray could score anyway possible back in the day

and finally the killer instinct alpha mentality...reggie was probably best known for it but ray was an assassin in his own right in his hey day and even now...dude hit so many big shots and had so many big games especially in his prime that its not even funny...especially many games in the 01 and 05 playoffs where his team would need it most he would deliever

all in all if you want to believe reggie is better thats on you and its your opinion I just don't and never will

[Magic 32]

I would have put Wade over West if Wade's 2006 Finals MVP was completely untainted.

It isn't though.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I mean its your opinion and its a solid one but for me I'd def put allen above moncrief and dumars probably reggie too but like I said its your opinion

Why? Make your case then.. "Only" thing those dudes really have as their MAIN advantage is longevity. People really making these lists based on "names" more than anything else, and more recent ofc at that, funny to me. Not saying some sort of case can't be made but I won't put Ray-Ray or Reggie above someone like Moncrief or Dumars (who, both, deserve top10).

Sam Jones was a pretty good player in his own right, very clutch and has 9 rings.. People here will have Ray Allen as high as 6th all time (:oldlol:) and not even mention Jones.

[Gotterdammerung]

1. MJ
2. West
3. Bryant :kobe:
4. Jones
5. Greer
6. Sharman
7. Moncrief
8. Drexler
9. Monroe
10. Gervin

:cheers:

[Ball So Harden]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Jerry West
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Clyde Drexler
6. Allen Iverson
7. Reggie Miller
8. George Gervin
9. Ray Allen
10. James Harden

[aj1987]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Jerry West
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Clyde Drexler
6. Allen Iverson
7. Reggie Miller
8. George Gervin
9. Ray Allen
100. James Harden
Fixed.

[Boston C's]

Why? Make your case then.. "Only" thing those dudes really have as their MAIN advantage is longevity. People really making these lists based on "names" more than anything else, funny to me. Not saying some sort of case can't be made but I won't put Ray-Ray or Reggie above someone like Moncrief or Dumars (who, both, deserve top10).

Sam Jones was a pretty good player in his own right, very clutch and has 9 rings.. People here will have Ray Allen as high as 6th all time (:oldlol:) and not even mention Jones.



I have ray at 8th and sam jones over him but in regards to moncrief ray and reggie are better because they lasted much longer...hell their careers are practically TWICE as long as his...their career averages are also better then moncriefs and their peaks are arguably better as well...don't get me wrong moncrief is awesome but his numbers aren't so significantly better (or at all compared to ray) and to top it off ray had 9 straight seasons of 20 plus ppg moncrief's prime did not last nearly as long dude had 5 good seasons and just fell off the face of the earth comparing ray to moncrief to me prime, peak, numbers, all around are just better

dumars is a different case I just look at rays peak and think its better and that his longevity is more impressive then dumars...their accolades are neck in neck ray with more all star games dumars with a slight edge in all nba teams (at least before his defensive accolades come to play) but rays prime and peak were just flat out better then dumars hell reggies was just as good if not better as well...throw in their longevity and to me I choose them...but again you have your opinion and its a respectable one but I just don't agree with it

[Smook A.]

Fixed.
So you'd rather fix the Harden part than the part where he put West at 2 and Wade at 4.

Ok :lol

[CeilingFan#1]

So you'd rather fix the Harden part than the part where he put West at 2 and Wade at 4.

Ok :lol

:lol

[aj1987]

So you'd rather fix the Harden part than the part where he put West at 2 and Wade at 4.

Ok :lol
Read my earlier posts. I've already said that West is higher than Wade right now.

[Solefade]

jerry west is an all-time great but d.wade is CLEARLY the 3rd best SG of all time if we're not weighing accolades heavily

[SHAQisGOAT]

I have ray at 8th and sam jones over him but in regards to moncrief ray and reggie are better because they lasted much longer...hell their careers are practically TWICE as long as his...their career averages are also better then moncriefs and their peaks are arguably better as well...don't get me wrong moncrief is awesome but his numbers aren't so significantly better (or at all compared to ray) and to top it off ray had 9 straight seasons of 20 plus ppg moncrief's prime did not last nearly as long dude had 5 good seasons and just fell off the face of the earth comparing ray to moncrief to me prime, peak, numbers, all around are just better

dumars is a different case I just look at rays peak and think its better and that his longevity is more impressive then dumars...their accolades are neck in neck ray with more all star games dumars with a slight edge in all nba teams (at least before his defensive accolades come to play) but rays prime and peak were just flat out better then dumars hell reggies was just as good if not better as well...throw in their longevity and to me I choose them...but again you have your opinion and its a respectable one but I just don't agree with it

Better peak(s) than Moncrief? No, just stop it, you're probably only looking at PPG or something lol.
-Sid was top10 in MVP voting 5 times, finishing 4th once, again, he made 5 all-nba teams, and was 1st once, with Magic, Gervin, Jordan or Isiah in the league, he's 5x all-defensive including 4 1st and has 2 DPOY's as a guard (most), made like 3 all-star games as a starter too;
-Moncrief was a good overall shooter but ofc as far as shooting Ray and Reggie are clearly above, I'd also put them above as far as scoring but the gap there is not big AT ALL, Sid was better at ISO with a really quick 1st step and he was easily a better finisher than either of them, better in the post too and was more athletic. Talking about defense, Sidney is just head-and-shoulders above the other 2, no contest here, dude is arguably the greatest defensive guard ever, plus he was a better rebounder than Allen and gets the edge in playmaking/passing too (in 1982 even lead the team in points, rebounds and assists, being 3rd in FG% and 4th in FT%, 2nd in steals and 6th in blocks). Ray and Reggie two of the biggest shot-makers in the clutch but Moncrief was pretty clutch too and came to play hard every night;
-As the main-man Sir Sid led his team to 50+W 5 times, besting at 59, 57 and 55, almost always making the ECF, oh and playing in arguably the GOAT conference (not to belittle his teammates because he had some really good ones, and coach too)
-From 82 to 86, in his prime before injuries, Mon was putting up 21.0/5.8/4.7 on .592 TS% with elite defense, in 1983 putting up 22.5/5.8/3.9 on .602 TS% and winning DPOY; from 81 to 88, counting a year when he was not in his prime and 3 injured seasons even, he averaged 18.2/5.5/4.0 on .570 TS%, peaking at 23.0/4.3/5.0 on .697 TS% (!!) in 1985, during the course of 8 games, even injured at one point.. and the only SG who can claim to have outplayed MJ in a playoff series h2h, that year.
............
Check the 1st 2 posts and more, here: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=312018
Check these too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ADAo3W4Hos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFV59cFZi-U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm1EEsgoITE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8-N2z1tI0Y

I'm sorry, Ray and Reggie can't really **** with all of the above (speaking of primes/peaks), and again, like I've said, if it wasn't for longevity (due to injuries) we wouldn't even be discussing who's above, much.


You're underrating Dumars too.. Dude was a really good shooter and could really score, although those two go to Ray and Reggie, scoring is close though. Joey couldn't rebound much but he was clearly a better passer/playmaker than those other 2 (even Moncrief), defense is not even that close also. He also was 10th in MVP voting and 2nd all-nba with some terrific guards in the league (all-defensive 1st too). Now Joe's prime/peak is not really ****ing with Moncrief's but he's up there with Ray or Reggie (you can make arguments for all here), and he won 2 rings with 1 FMVP, that holds weight on this discussion.

[Boston C's]

Better peak(s) than Moncrief? No, just stop it, you're probably only looking at PPG or something lol.
-Sid was top10 in MVP voting 5 times, finishing 4th once, again, he made 5 all-nba teams, and was 1st once, with Magic, Gervin, Jordan or Isiah in the league, he's 5x all-defensive including 4 1st and has 2 DPOY's as a guard (most), made like 3 all-star games as a starter too;
-Moncrief was a good overall shooter but ofc as far as shooting Ray and Reggie are clearly above, I'd also put them above as far as scoring but the gap there is not big AT ALL, Sid was better at ISO with a really quick 1st step and he was easily a better finisher than either of them, better in the post too and was more athletic. Talking about defense, Sidney is just head-and-shoulders above the other 2, no contest here, dude is arguably the greatest defensive guard ever, plus he was a better rebounder than Allen and gets the edge in playmaking/passing too (in 1982 even lead the team in points, rebounds and assists, being 3rd in FG% and 4th in FT%, 2nd in steals and 6th in blocks). Ray and Reggie two of the biggest shot-makers in the clutch but Moncrief was pretty clutch too and came to play hard every night;
-As the main-man Sir Sid led his team to 50+W 5 times, besting at 59, 57 and 55, almost always making the ECF, oh and playing in arguably the GOAT conference (not to belittle his teammates because he had some really good ones, and coach too)
-From 82 to 86, in his prime before injuries, Mon was putting up 21.0/5.8/4.7 on .592 TS% with elite defense, in 1983 putting up 22.5/5.8/3.9 on .602 TS% and winning DPOY; from 81 to 88, counting a year when he was not in his prime and 3 injured seasons even, he averaged 18.2/5.5/4.0 on .570 TS%, peaking at 23.0/4.3/5.0 .697 TS% (!!) in 1985, during the course of 8 games, even injured at one point.. and the only SG who can claim to have outplayed MJ in a playoff series h2h, that year.
............
Check the 1st 2 posts and more, here: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=312018
Check these too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ADAo3W4Hos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFV59cFZi-U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm1EEsgoITE

I'm sorry, Ray and Reggie can't really **** with all of the above (speaking of primes/peaks), and again, like I've said, if it wasn't for longevity (due to injuries) we wouldn't even be discussing who's above, much.


You're underrating Dumars too.. Dude was a really good shooter and could really score, although those two go to Ray and Reggie, scoring is close though. Joey couldn't rebound much but he was clearly a better passer/playmaker than those other 2 (even Moncrief), defense is not even that close also. He also was 10th in MVP voting and 2nd all-nba with some terrific guards in the league (all-defensive 1st too). Now Joe's prime/peak is not really ****ing with Moncrief's but he's up there with Ray or Reggie (you can make arguments for all here), and he won 2 rings with 1 FMVP, that holds weight on this discussion.




I hear you on all accounts man...the only thing I disagree with you is about dumars peak...his peak is up there but I think both their peaks (especially rays) was better then dumars about moncrief you def dropped some knowledge with his team leadership and I totally overlooked his 2 defensive player of the yr awards...I'm gonna have to go check out some moncrief highlights and get back to you lol...I've seen enough of dumars though and hes probably at my 10th spot (that spot interchanges so much for me because of other talented 2 guards lol) but I definitely think ray ray is above dumars in all time rankings like I said it can be argued for sure I won't sit here and say its not debatable but your not swaying my mind with dumars over ray ray

[Fire Colangelo]

Wade had to compete with the likes of Kobe, Nash, Paul for most of his career. Not to mention the likes of Iverson, McGrady, Ray Allen earlier in his career.

Who the hell was west's competition other than Robertson at the guard position? Sam jones? You do realize Hal Greer was making all nba 2nd team behind West?

And are people really arguing Iverson > Wade? Based on what? A MVP trophy? Wtf...

[SHAQisGOAT]

I hear you on all accounts man...the only thing I disagree with you is about dumars peak...his peak is up there but I think both their peaks (especially rays) was better then dumars about moncrief you def dropped some knowledge with his team leadership and I totally overlooked his 2 defensive player of the yr awards...I'm gonna have to go check out some moncrief highlights and get back to you lol...I've seen enough of dumars though and hes probably at my 10th spot (that spot interchanges so much for me because of other talented 2 guards lol) but I definitely think ray ray is above dumars in all time rankings like I said it can be argued for sure I won't sit here and say its not debatable but your not swaying my mind with dumars over ray ray

Yea man, Sid was just amazing, shame for injuries (and small market coverage).
Regarding Dumars, like I've said, it can be argued who has a better peak (between him and Allen/Miller) and as far as careers is also arguable but considering everything I gotta put Joey D above, not that it isn't really close though.

[Boston C's]

Yea man, Sid was just amazing, shame for injuries (and small market coverage).
Regarding Dumars, like I've said, it can be argued who has a better peak (between him and Allen/Miller) and as far as careers is also arguable but considering everything I gotta put Joey D above, not that it isn't really close though.

na I hear you man...not gonna be like most of these stans and shove my opinions down your throat glad you arent doin the same haha...nothing wrong with just a good discussion without ppl going awol on the keyboard :lol

[SHAQisGOAT]

na I hear you man...not gonna be like most of these stans and shove my opinions down your throat glad you arent doin the same haha...nothing wrong with just a good discussion without ppl going awol on the keyboard :lol

:cheers:

[Boston C's]

:cheers:

One thing I don't get that seems to be consistent on most ppls lists is the iceman...I know I'm probably in the minority but I consider him more of a small forward then a 2 guard

[SHAQisGOAT]

One thing I don't get that seems to be consistent on most ppls lists is the iceman...I know I'm probably in the minority but I consider him more of a small forward then a 2 guard

Well he spent most of his prime at the 2, and he was more of a SG on the court (didn't expand his range all that much and had a good post-game though, finished plenty at the rim also).. (I believe) Olberding was the SF at first, then during the later years of Gervin's prime they had Mike Mitchell at the 3, dude who could also put the ball in the basket at a high rate. You can see that George was also making all-nba at guard, not forward.
Oh and the Iceman had a great, and sometimes underrated, career.. One of the greatest scorers the game has ever seen with plenty of ways to do it (and always making it look easy), solid rebounder and not a bad passer also, good off-ball defender too. He was twice #2 in MVP voting, 3rd and 5th once too, 5 all-nba 1st, all-star a bunch of times, 5x scoring champ, 4 times top5 in PER, greatest SG in the league during many years, and he actually raised his game in the PS more than enough, leading his team deep various times, almost making the Finals once, with pretty good teammates here and there but nothing to really brag much about.

[houston]

Mj
Kobe
Wade
West
Cylde
Greer
AI
Mcgrady
Gervin
Sam Jones


:roll: @ray allen and manu reggie top ten

[Bless Mathews]

Anyone that has Manu in top 10 is high on hallucinogens.

[tpols]

Wade has only been to 4 Finals and of the 3 he did win, he was a sidekick in 2 of them. You don't get to conveniently punish a guy for playing in another era. You still have not successfully refuted the stats I posted that clearly put West over Wade. If Wade was so great, why does he have only 2 All-NBA 1st teams? Why has he never made an All-Defensive 1st team? Why has he never been so much as a runner up(never mind actually winning) for MVP?
fvck that second option shit.. Wade's been so crucial to this current 3 peat.. he steps up when needed and always produces in dire moments. If the Heat end up winning 3-4 chips he'll have a case against West.

[Milbuck]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Jerry West
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Clyde Drexler
6. Allen Iverson
7. Reggie Miller
8. George Gervin
9. Ray Allen
10. James Harden
:roll:

[Black and White]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Jerry West
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Clyde Drexler
6. Allen Iverson
7. Reggie Miller
8. George Gervin
9. Ray Allen
10. James Harden


R.I.P to your credibility.

[kennethgriffin]

#1 michael Jordan 30ppg, 6 titles, 5 mvps, 11 all nba, 14 allstar, 9 all defense
#2 Kobe bryant 25ppg, 5 titles, 1 mvp, 15 all nba, 15 allstar, 12 all defense
#3 dwyane Wade 24ppg, 3 titles, 0 mvps, 8 all nba, 9 allstar, 3 all defense
#4 allen Iverson 26ppg, 0 titles, 1 mvp, 7 all nba, 11 allstar
#5 clyde Drexler 20ppg, 1 title, 0 mvps, 5 all nba, 10 allstar
#6 Hal Greer 19ppg, 1 title, 0 mvps, 7 all nba, 10 allstar
#7 George gervin 25ppg, 0 titles, 0 mvps, 7 all nba, 9 allstar
#8 Ray Allen 19ppg, 2 titles, 0 mvps, 2 all nba, 10 allstar
#9 Sam Jones 17ppg, 10 titles, 0 mvps, 3 all nba, 5 allstar
#10 Joe Dumars 16ppg, 2 titles, 0 mvps, 3 all nba, 6 allstar, 5 all defense



honorable mention:

Reggie Miller 18ppg, 0 titles, 0 mvps, 3 all nba, 5 allstar



****jerry west is not a shooting guard. he played 12 of 14 seasons officially listed at point guard

[Cali Syndicate]

#1 michael Jordan 30ppg, 6 titles, 5 mvps, 11 all nba, 14 allstar, 9 all defense
#2 Kobe bryant 25ppg, 5 titles, 1 mvp, 15 all nba, 15 allstar, 12 all defense
#3 dwyane Wade 24ppg, 3 titles, 0 mvps, 8 all nba, 9 allstar, 3 all defense
#4 allen Iverson 26ppg, 0 titles, 1 mvp, 7 all nba, 11 allstar
#5 clyde Drexler 20ppg, 1 title, 0 mvps, 5 all nba, 10 allstar
#6 Hal Greer 19ppg, 1 title, 0 mvps, 7 all nba, 10 allstar
#7 George gervin 25ppg, 0 titles, 0 mvps, 7 all nba, 9 allstar
#8 Ray Allen 19ppg, 2 titles, 0 mvps, 2 all nba, 10 allstar
#9 Sam Jones 17ppg, 10 titles, 0 mvps, 3 all nba, 5 allstar
#10 Joe Dumars 16ppg, 2 titles, 0 mvps, 3 all nba, 6 allstar, 5 all defense



honorable mention:

Reggie Miller 18ppg, 0 titles, 0 mvps, 3 all nba, 5 allstar



****jerry west is not a shooting guard. he played 12 of 14 seasons officially listed at point guard


You think you're soooo smart don't you?

[Boston C's]

Mj
Kobe
Wade
West
Cylde
Greer
AI
Mcgrady
Gervin
Sam Jones


:roll: @ray allen and manu reggie top ten

your a dumbass...if your gonna leave those dudes out (which is hard pressed besides manu actually) then at least don't be a moron and put mcgrady up there :lol

you coulda chosen moncrief or dumars or monroe hell you only listed 9 anyways :lol

[Doctor Rivers]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Jerry West
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Clyde Drexler
6. Allen Iverson
7. Reggie Miller
8. George Gervin
9. Ray Allen
10. James Harden

i can't stop laughing thank you

[Jlamb47]

Mj
Kobe
Wade
Drexler
A.I
Tmac
Manu
Allen
Gervin
Vince
Miller

[aj1987]

fvck that second option shit.. Wade's been so crucial to this current 3 peat.. he steps up when needed and always produces in dire moments. If the Heat end up winning 3-4 chips he'll have a case against West.
Wow! Tpols, this must be the first time that you EVER posted anything positive about a Heat player. Please tell me that this isn't to deride LeBron...

[Teanett]

Reggie Miller


:biggums:

carter
richmond
sprewell

three guys who were better than him playing at the same time.

[allball]

My favorite 10 guards:

Jordan
Kobe
David Thompson
Wade
Gervin (more of a SF but easily transitioned to SG)
Clyde
Sam Jones
West (I consider more of a combo guard but his SG skills put him on the list)
Richmond
Doug Collins

[Mr Feeny]

Wow! Tpols, this must be the first time that you EVER posted anything positive about a Heat player. Please tell me that this isn't to deride LeBron...It is unfortunately. He wants to push his 'Kobe wasn't a #2 option agenda". Wrong once again too.:oldlol:

[dajadeed]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Jerry West
5. Clyde Drexler
6. George Gervin
7. Manu Ginobili
8. Allen Iverson
9. Ray Allen
10. Mitch Richmond

Wanted to see who the first idiot to have Kobe lower than 2nd would be. Didn't have to go far.

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[dajadeed]

Of all 5 positions in basketball, shooting guard top 10 lists are the only ones that have a clear cut 1 and 2. Mike followed by Kobe.

Anyone who has it any other way doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.

[Fiddlesticks]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Clyde Drexler
5. Jerry West
6. George Gervin
7. Allen Iverson
8. Ray Allen
9. Vince Carter
10.David Thompson

[Bob Dole]

Of all 5 positions in basketball, shooting guard top 10 lists are the only ones that have a clear cut 1 and 2. Mike followed by Kobe.

Anyone who has it any other way doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.

Na dude. Kobe Bryant was not better than jerry west no matter how much espn tells you is. Jerry west was a much better playoff performer. That should let you know how little that ring counting means.

Jordan
West
Kobe
Wade
Drexler
After top 5 I don't really care. Many ways u can go

[Deuce Bigalow]

Na dude. Kobe Bryant was not better than jerry west no matter how much espn tells you is. Jerry west was a much better playoff performer. That should let you know how little that ring counting means.

Jordan
West
Kobe
Wade
Drexler
After top 5 I don't really care. Many ways u can go
Where do you rank Wilt?

[DaSeba5]

Of all 5 positions in basketball, shooting guard top 10 lists are the only ones that have a clear cut 1 and 2. Mike followed by Kobe.

Anyone who has it any other way doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.

SF too. Bird and LeBron.

[kshutts1]

Did it really take until page FIVE for someone to mention Green, Sam Jones, or Sharman? WTF?

Anyway, I can only rank those I have seen...

Jordan
Kobe
(West is likely here but I never saw him)
Wade
TMac
Drexler
AI
Ray
Reggie

..That is only 9, but someone in there is, I'm sure, Sharman, Sam Jones, and Hal Greer.

[VengefulAngel]

Did it really take until page FIVE for someone to mention Green, Sam Jones, or Sharman? WTF?

Anyway, I can only rank those I have seen...

Jordan
Kobe
(West is likely here but I never saw him)
Wade
TMac
Drexler
AI
Ray
Reggie

..That is only 9, but someone in there is, I'm sure, Sharman, Sam Jones, and Hal Greer.

Most of the players that you mentioned are past our time and people have no recollection of them, so its difficult to put them in a top 10 list.