All time PER in playoffs.

[VengefulAngel]

Rank Player PER
1. Michael Jordan* 28.60
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 27.54
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.13
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Chris Paul 25.08
7. Tim Duncan 24.72
8. Kevin Durant 24.45
9. Charles Barkley* 24.18
10. Dirk Nowitzki

:bowdown: :bowdown: MJ and LBJ.

Other Notables:
14. Dwyane Wade 23.08
15. Jerry West* 23.06
17. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 23.01
22. Kobe Bryant 22.40
23. Russell Westbrook 22.18

[russwest0]

Chris Paul :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[J Shuttlesworth]

Chris Paul :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Small sample size

[VengefulAngel]

All 30 + PER playoff runs

LBJ is having another 30 + PER playoff run.

1. Hakeem Olajuwon* 38.96 1988 HOU
2. LeBron James 37.39 2009 CLE
3. George Mikan* 33.58 1954 MNL
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 32.35 1977 LAL
5. Michael Jordan* 32.04 1991 CHI
6. Julius Erving* 31.98 1976 NYA
7. Tim Duncan 31.80 2002 SAS
8. Michael Jordan* 31.67 1990 CHI
9. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.31 1964 SFW
10. Shaquille O'Neal 31.00 1998 LAL
11. Chris Paul 30.70 2008 NOH
12. Shaquille O'Neal 30.61 2003 LAL
13. Shaquille O'Neal 30.45 2000 LAL
14. Julius Erving* 30.45 1972 VIR
15. Tim Duncan 30.39 2006 SAS
16. LeBron James 30.34 2012 MIA
17. Michael Jordan* 30.06 1993 CHI

[russwest0]

Small sample size

:lebronamazed: :lebronamazed: :lebronamazed:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Mikan :applause:

[toxicxr6]

kobe stans about to go into meltdown
but but kobe is tha best
22. kobe in playoffs lol.. and stans try to make people think he is top 5 goat lol

[VengefulAngel]

kobe stans about to go into meltdown
but but kobe is tha best
22. kobe in playoffs lol.. and stans try to make people think he is top 5 goat lol

He many not even be the best robin in playoff history.:lol :lol :lol

Just trolling Kobe fans, He's a top 10 player of all time.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Jordans are a bit inflated because of chucking
LeGOAT tho:bowdown: :bowdown: :banana: :applause:

[tpols]

All 30 + PER playoff runs

LBJ is having another 30 + PER playoff run.

1. Hakeem Olajuwon* 38.96 1988 HOU
2. LeBron James 37.39 2009 CLE
3. George Mikan* 33.58 1954 MNL
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 32.35 1977 LAL
5. Michael Jordan* 32.04 1991 CHI
6. Julius Erving* 31.98 1976 NYA
7. Tim Duncan 31.80 2002 SAS
8. Michael Jordan* 31.67 1990 CHI
9. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.31 1964 SFW
10. Shaquille O'Neal 31.00 1998 LAL
11. Chris Paul 30.70 2008 NOH
12. Shaquille O'Neal 30.61 2003 LAL
13. Shaquille O'Neal 30.45 2000 LAL
14. Julius Erving* 30.45 1972 VIR
15. Tim Duncan 30.39 2006 SAS
16. LeBron James 30.34 2012 MIA
17. Michael Jordan* 30.06 1993 CHI

The only chips.. 4/17

[VengefulAngel]

The only chips.. 4/17

That's because basketball is a team game...

[tpols]

That's because basketball is a team game...

Exactly.

[Trollsmasher]

motherf*cking Mikan:bowdown:

[VengefulAngel]

Exactly.

ahh, thought that you were trying to imply something else.

[Deuce Bigalow]

kobe stans about to go into meltdown
but but kobe is tha best
22. kobe in playoffs lol.. and stans try to make people think he is top 5 goat lol
Lol dumbass top 5 GOATs Magic and Bird are around Kobe's PER.

[tpols]

ahh, thought that you were trying to imply something else.

I was. :coleman:

[VengefulAngel]

Lol dumbass top 5 GOATs Magic and Bird are around Kobe's PER.

Btw if you read the white text I was trolling lol.

[Cali Syndicate]

Jordans are a bit inflated because of chucking
LeGOAT tho:bowdown: :bowdown: :banana: :applause:

Your mom's inflated.

[SexSymbol]

Your mom's inflated.
also his girlfriend, dog and dick.

[Young X]

CP3 still averages 20/10 type numbers in the playoffs despite facing 55-60 win teams every year and is 3rd all time in postseason APG. :applause:

[tpols]

CP3 still averages 20/10 type numbers in the playoffs despite facing 55-60 win teams every year and is 3rd all time in postseason APG.

loser ass n!gga

[Deuce Bigalow]

Give me Bran's PER vs 50-win teams tbh

[Young X]

:coleman: What player faced tougher competition?

[tpols]

What player faced tougher competition?

Nobody.. if paul was bran he'd have 2 titles :biggums:

but we cant live on ifs

[Young X]

Nobody.. if paul was bran he'd have 2 titles :biggums:

but we cant live on ifsHow is he a loser if he's losing to teams just as good or better than his every year in the west while putting up 20/10 type numbers?

[tpols]

How is he a loser if he's losing to teams just as good or better than his every year in the west while putting up 20/10 type numbers?

Because he stays fouling dumb n!gas like westbrook to decide series

[VengefulAngel]

Because he stays fouling dumb n!gas like westbrook to decide series

Ill attempt to look at Clutch PER and PER against 50 win teams may take me a little while though.

[pauk]

All 30 + PER playoff runs

LBJ is having another 30 + PER playoff run.

1. Hakeem Olajuwon* 38.96 1988 HOU
2. LeBron James 37.39 2009 CLE
3. George Mikan* 33.58 1954 MNL
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 32.35 1977 LAL
5. Michael Jordan* 32.04 1991 CHI
6. Julius Erving* 31.98 1976 NYA
7. Tim Duncan 31.80 2002 SAS
8. Michael Jordan* 31.67 1990 CHI
9. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.31 1964 SFW
10. Shaquille O'Neal 31.00 1998 LAL
11. Chris Paul 30.70 2008 NOH
12. Shaquille O'Neal 30.61 2003 LAL
13. Shaquille O'Neal 30.45 2000 LAL
14. Julius Erving* 30.45 1972 VIR
15. Tim Duncan 30.39 2006 SAS
16. LeBron James 30.34 2012 MIA
17. Michael Jordan* 30.06 1993 CHI

Lebron did 37.39 in 14 games, Hakeem did 38.96 in 4 games, just putting that out there.

[VengefulAngel]

Lebron did 37.39 in 14 games, Hakeem did 38.96 in 4 games, just putting that out there.

yep i have to go, but Ill add games when I come back.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Ill attempt to look at Clutch PER and PER against 50 win teams may take me a little while though.
You know how to calculate PER?

[sbw19]

All 30 + PER playoff runs

LBJ is having another 30 + PER playoff run.

1. Hakeem Olajuwon* 38.96 1988 HOU
2. LeBron James 37.39 2009 CLE
3. George Mikan* 33.58 1954 MNL
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 32.35 1977 LAL
5. Michael Jordan* 32.04 1991 CHI
6. Julius Erving* 31.98 1976 NYA
7. Tim Duncan 31.80 2002 SAS
8. Michael Jordan* 31.67 1990 CHI
9. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.31 1964 SFW
10. Shaquille O'Neal 31.00 1998 LAL
11. Chris Paul 30.70 2008 NOH
12. Shaquille O'Neal 30.61 2003 LAL
13. Shaquille O'Neal 30.45 2000 LAL
14. Julius Erving* 30.45 1972 VIR
15. Tim Duncan 30.39 2006 SAS
16. LeBron James 30.34 2012 MIA
17. Michael Jordan* 30.06 1993 CHI
Though all remarkable performances, not all of them are title-runs or at least Finals-runs. And considering competition, not all are created equal.

[JebronLames]

Rank Player PER
1. Michael Jordan* 28.60
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 27.54
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.13
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Chris Paul 25.08
7. Tim Duncan 24.72
8. Kevin Durant 24.45
9. Charles Barkley* 24.18
10. Dirk Nowitzki

:bowdown: :bowdown: MJ and LBJ.

Other Notables:
14. Dwyane Wade 23.08
15. Jerry West* 23.06
17. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 23.01
22. Kobe Bryant 22.40
23. Russell Westbrook 22.18

Those are just numbers. You have to pass the eye test. There are things you don't see in numbers! :facepalm

Like hockey assists, or passes that lead to free throws, making your teammates better. You also don't see how chucking in the 4th quarter makes it more predictable and easier for defenses to play against you, and how it hurts the play of your teammates. PER doesn't account for that so it's meaningless!

[sportjames23]

Jordans are a bit inflated because of chucking
LeGOAT tho:bowdown: :bowdown: :banana: :applause:


This fakkit stays stupid. :facepalm

[Solefade]

a lot of people downplay PER a lot, though it's not 100% accurate it's a pretty good indicator of how good these peeps were...just look at the names on that list and check their stats

[VIntageNOvel]

a lot of people downplay PER a lot, though it's not 100% accurate it's a pretty good indicator of how good these peeps were...just look at the names on that list and check their stats


how many rings from those list?

The only chips.. 4/17


EMPTY

[T_L_P]

Those are just numbers. You have to pass the eye test. There are things you don't see in numbers! :facepalm

Like hockey assists, or passes that lead to free throws, making your teammates better. You also don't see how chucking in the 4th quarter makes it more predictable and easier for defenses to play against you, and how it hurts the play of your teammates. PER doesn't account for that so it's meaningless!

No one stat can account for everything. PER is basically a measure of your stats. And the final list is definitely one that roughly correlates with a lot of all time lists.

[maybeshewill13]

Mikan :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Wait, who's Mikan?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Mikan :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Wait, who's Mikan?
Only the greatest basketball player to ever play.

[pastis]

No one stat can account for everything. PER is basically a measure of your stats. And the final list is definitely one that roughly correlates with a lot of all time lists.

so you wanna really say that duncan is better than dirk in the playoffs. ey du kleiner benge, comon.

Dirk in playoffs better than Bird, Duncan, Wade etc. So pls only accept this.

[T_L_P]

so you wanna really say that duncan is better than dirk in the playoffs. ey du kleiner benge, comon.

Dirk in playoffs better than Bird, Duncan, Wade etc. So pls only accept this.

Yes. That's why Duncan is unanimously considered a top ten player and Dirk is not.

4 less PPG, but 2 more rebounds, .5 more assists, 1.1 more steals and blocks, and twice the defensive impact, over the course of 90 more games.

:facepalm

Of course you'll come back and tell me Dirk plays a harder style, but as a GM and a player the aim is to make the game as simple as possible. Why didn't Dirk try to become a low post player? You're part of that generation that thinks taking a shot with two sets of hands in your face is better than kicking it to the open man.

[hahaitme]

Only the greatest basketball player to ever play.

2nd after BR

[russwest0]

Mikan :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Wait, who's Mikan?

the dude who kareem took inspiration from

the god to our gods

[RoundMoundOfReb]

2nd after BR
I have Russell #2

[hahaitme]

I have Russell #2

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

[Deuce Bigalow]

2nd after BR
Think of Bill Russell on defense combined with Michael Jordan on offense, that was George Mikan.

[creepingdeath]

Yes. That's why Duncan is unanimously considered a top ten player and Dirk is not.

4 less PPG, but 2 more rebounds, .5 more assists, 1.1 more steals and blocks, and twice the defensive impact, over the course of 90 more games.

:facepalm

Of course you'll come back and tell me Dirk plays a harder style, but as a GM and a player the aim is to make the game as simple as possible. Why didn't Dirk try to become a low post player? You're part of that generation that thinks taking a shot with two sets of hands in your face is better than kicking it to the open man.
Pastis might be a troll, but you don't seem to be very educated if you claim that Dirk isn't playing in the low post ...

[T_L_P]

Pastis might be a troll, but you don't seem to be very educated if you claim that Dirk isn't playing in the low post ...

He obviously plays the low post, but he definitely does not play the traditional law post game like Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem did, who all made the game easier for themselves with their playstyle.

Dirk is pretty much known as a high-post player or jumpshooter. For reference: in 2007, he attempted 116 shots from 3-10 feet, 363 shots from 10-16 feet, and 504 shots from 16 feet - 3 point line. Does that describe a low post player to you?

[creepingdeath]

He obviously plays the low post, but he definitely does not play the traditional law post game like Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem did, who all made the game easier for themselves with their playstyle.

Dirk is pretty much known as a high-post player or jumpshooter. For reference: in 2007, he attempted 116 shots from 3-10 feet, 363 shots from 10-16 feet, and 504 shots from 16 feet - 3 point line. Does that describe a low post player to you?
True, he doesn't play the "traditional low" post game - his offensive arsenal is much vaster.

And he might be known as a jumpshooter, but only people who haven't watched Dirk very often would reduce him to that. Here are some numbers on his low post efficiency:


POST-UP POWERS
Most efficient post-up players in 2013-14 season, according to Synergy (minimum 125 plays).

Player Plays Points FG% %FT Pts/play
LeBron James 261 283 55.9 21.8 1.08
Kevin Durant 207 221 47.8 20.8 1.07
Dirk Nowitzki 534 568 50.8 15.5 1.06
Dwyane Wade 145 153 53.7 17.2 1.06
Carmelo Anthony 420 427 49.4 16.7 1.02
Al Jefferson 840 813 51.0 11.0 0.97
Arron Afflalo 173 167 49.6 14.5 0.97
Blake Griffin 541 517 47.8 22.7 0.96
Joe Johnson 244 233 50.8 12.3 0.96
Brandon Bass 241 229 44.8 17.0 0.95

Also see the following link, which proves that he is a better, more efficient and less turnover-prone player in the low post than some "traditional" low post guys like Duncan, Jefferson or Howard.http://sinbapointforward.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/8585.jpg?w=441&h=298

And that's not an entirely new phenomenon for Dirk: http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/mavericks/post/_/id/4666824/dirk-dominating-in-the-low-post
Dirk also changed his game-style quite a bit over the course of his career, so the numbers you posted from 2007 are not representative of Dirk 08-14. People might not remember that, but back in his first couple of seasons, Nowitzki had mad hops and was actually dunking quite often...

[DMAVS41]

He obviously plays the low post, but he definitely does not play the traditional law post game like Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem did, who all made the game easier for themselves with their playstyle.

Dirk is pretty much known as a high-post player or jumpshooter. For reference: in 2007, he attempted 116 shots from 3-10 feet, 363 shots from 10-16 feet, and 504 shots from 16 feet - 3 point line. Does that describe a low post player to you?

It's called having a versatile game.

Very few players, if any, could go to the low post, high post, top of the key (or nail) post, shoot 3's, take guys off the dribble from anywhere, have one of the best mid range jump shots in NBA history, get to the line at a great rate in his prime and convert at around 90%...

He's one of the most efficient offensive scorers in NBA history.

Dirk is 11th all time in playoff scoring per game. Of the 10 guys that score more than him per game...only;

Only Durant scores more efficiently at 58.4% TS to 57.9% TS...and even then that is a bit misleading as Dirk up until this year was at 58.4% TS for his career in the playoffs.

He might not have had the traditional game, but offensively he blows the traditional game out of the water.

[T_L_P]

It's called having a versatile game.

Very few players, if any, could go to the low post, high post, top of the key (or nail) post, shoot 3's, take guys off the dribble from anywhere, have one of the best mid range jump shots in NBA history, get to the line at a great rate in his prime and convert at around 90%...

He's one of the most efficient offensive scorers in NBA history.

Dirk is 11th all time in playoff scoring per game. Of the 10 guys that score more than him per game...only;

Only Durant scores more efficiently at 58.4% TS to 57.9% TS...and even then that is a bit misleading as Dirk up until this year was at 58.4% TS for his career in the playoffs.

He might not have had the traditional game, but offensively he blows the traditional game out of the water.

Of course this is all true. Nothing I said was meant to undermine Dirk. As a Playoff performer, as a guy I'd choose to build a team around, he's easily in my top fifteen.

But...that doesn't mean by default he is a better player than Duncan because his gamestyle is "more exhausting" (which is what pastis was saying, which is what I was responding to). Duncan's style of play is simply easier to build around and it allows teammates to play their style perfectly too. That's all I was saying.

[DMAVS41]

Of course this is all true. Nothing I said was meant to undermine Dirk. As a Playoff performer, as a guy I'd choose to build a team around, he's easily in my top fifteen.

But...that doesn't mean by default he is a better player than Duncan because his gamestyle is "more exhausting" (which is what pastis was saying, which is what I was responding to). Duncan's style of play is simply easier to build around and it allows teammates to play their style perfectly too. That's all I was saying.

Of course not.

You know I have Duncan top 4 all time and consider him on a different tier than Dirk.

I don't really understand the easier to build around stuff. You need less around Duncan because he was better.

Dirk's style does not make it inherently harder to get good players around him. This line of thinking makes no sense to me.

The Spurs put better coaching and players around Duncan...this is just pretty much a fact at this point. There is no reason why the Mavs could not have put the same quality of players and coaching around Dirk...Duncan doesn't have some magic ability to allow his team to get better players. Parker and Manu are simply just better players than anyone Dirk had after the 2003 season. In a vacuum...this is not a style thing. Those two guys are just simply better basketball players than the likes of Terry or Josh Howard.

All this speaks to is Duncan being better...and the Spurs management doing a much better job than the Mavs did in terms of surrounding the two players with help and coaching.


In fact, offensively, I'd argue that Dirk's style fits in better than Duncan's. Even without the ball Dirk makes a huge impact on defenses...in a way Duncan really doesn't. Which isn't shocking considering Dirk was/is a better offensive player than Duncan...it's the defense/rebounding that separates the two...and it's an enormous gap there.

This article does a great job of talking about some of this hidden value of Dirk's offensive impact that I think goes unnoticed here;

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/steve-nash-george-karl-and-others-on-dirk-nowitzki-and-the-unguardable-play/


Also, I'd like to add, that Dirk's game would have been even better playing with better players. His style doesn't require great players obviously as he's never really had any, but if he did...you'd see his efficiency skyrocket at times as he'd get even better looks. He just had his 2nd most efficient season of his career. Why? Because teams couldn't sit and watch Ellis get to the rim play after play so they had to shift over and when they did...Ellis was good enough at finding Dirk for great shots. Calderon's ability to shoot off the pick and roll (similar to Terry at times) fit in great with this offensively.

That didn't happen against the Spurs because you guys stayed with Dirk and lived with Harris/Calderon/Ellis beating you on jumpers...and it was a dangerous gameplan that came close to biting Pop in the ass through the first 6 games.

That should tell people a lot about Dirk's value on offense still. Pop would rather have guards getting wide open jumpers than leave Dirk without a player attached to his hip on most plays throughout the games. If the Mavs would have had a better shooter in the corner other than Marion or a center that could finish...the Spurs would never have been able to get away with that gameplan and it would have been a completely different series for Dirk offensively....as he's no longer able to consistently beat elite post defense from a guy like Splitter one on one.

[rmt]

Of course not.

You know I have Duncan top 4 all time and consider him on a different tier than Dirk.

I don't really understand the easier to build around stuff. You need less around Duncan because he was better.

Dirk's style does not make it inherently harder to get good players around him. This line of thinking makes no sense to me.

The Spurs put better coaching and players around Duncan...this is just pretty much a fact at this point. There is no reason why the Mavs could not have put the same quality of players and coaching around Dirk...Duncan doesn't have some magic ability to allow his team to get better players.

All this speaks to is Duncan being better...and the Spurs management doing a much better job than the Mavs did in terms of surrounding the two players with help and coaching.[/url]

What I think they mean about being easier to build around is that given the same amount of payroll, building around Duncan gets you more talent because he is also the defensive anchor. With Dirk, you've got to pay for an EXPENSIVE big man to anchor the defensive so less can be spent elsewhere. With Duncan, you can get away with paying for cheap big men like Oberto, Elson, Bonner, Nazr and Rasho (all much less than even Haywood) and still win championships instead of Chandler (12.6 million) and Haywood (6.9 million). Even then 2011 Mavs had a payroll over $85million. Spurs never approach that - 07 ($65million) - this year - $63million.

[DMAVS41]

What I think they mean about being easier to build around is that given the same amount of payroll, building around Duncan gets you more talent because he is also the defensive anchor. With Dirk, you've got to pay for an EXPENSIVE big man to anchor the defensive so less can be spent elsewhere. With Duncan, you can get away with paying for cheap big men like Oberto, Elson, Bonner, Nazr and Rasho (all much less than even Haywood) and still win championships instead of Chandler (12.6 million) and Haywood (6.9 million). Even then 2011 Mavs had a payroll over $85million. Spurs never approach that - 07 ($65million) - this year - $63million.

Yes...Duncan is better than Dirk. Therefore you can win with less.

However, I think he was implying that it's easier to get good players around Duncan due to his style. Which just isn't true...Duncan did not make it easier to get Parker/Manu or Pop. It was just a better run franchise that surrounded their star player with more help. Also, sadly, I'd take those cheap big men over the likes of Damp/Diop/Haywood/Lafrentz/Bradley/Najera...etc. from a value standpoint. It would be one thing if any of that money was put to good use on bigs, but it wasn't....the fact that Jason Terry was Dirk's best teammate Dirk had from 04 through really until this year is pathetic (not sure if Chandler or Terry was more valuable in 11)...

Also, the money is not relevant to me as Haywood sucked...and Parker/Manu were just better players than anyone Dirk had post 2003. Again...this speaks to the Spurs just being smarter and better in the front office...and this doesn't even touch on the value of Pop vs the likes of Avery Johnson.

Like I said...it's not a style thing. Duncan played with better help and coaching...in vacuum. It would be one thing if the Mavs had great center play or something...but we never had that...even in 11 with Chandler. He wasn't great. He was really good don't get me wrong, but hardly great. The combo of Manu/Parker in 05 and 07 was easily as impactful, I'd say more, than the combo of Terry/Chandler in 11....although it's close enough with Terry getting hot to not debate. And what do you know...Mavs win the title against great competition.

Look at the current Grizzlies for example. Does somehow Zach Randolph make it easier to get that team than prime Dirk? Imagine prime Dirk playing on a team with Conley running point and Marc Gasol at center who would honestly be perfect for Dirk...with Ed Davis and Koufous? Damn that's good... Throw in a bunch of really solid role players that can defend...Mike Miller stretching the floor and you get a team every bit as good or better than the 11 Mavs...and better suited to win in the playoffs than any other Mavs team outside of 2003. What does Randolph do to make it easier? Nothing of course...

You don't "HAVE" to do anything to be honest. Yes, a great big man would always be nice, but so would just a team with players as good as Manu or Parker (which Dirk has never had since 2003)...

Take the 03 Mavs, for example, they played Lafrentz and Najera at center. They had the 9th best defense in the league and are still the best Mavs team of the Dirk era in my opinion. There are many ways to make this shit work...but all of them are dependent on having enough quality players....and quality coaching.

And coaching is being a bit undervalued here.....well, in the Nellie/Avery years.

Do I think we lose the title in 06 with Pop instead of Avery and the exact same team? Hell no.
Do I think we lose to the Warriors in 07 with Pop? Hell no.

Do I think we would have made some of the front office decisions with a coach as smart as Pop being the coach every year of the Dirk era? Hell no.

Just on coaching alone...and not even talking about players...I think the Mavs have at least 1 more title with Pop coaching...perhaps 2. That is how valuable he really is compared to a guy like Avery Johnson in my opinion.

But some of this is overblown to be honest. The Mavs had 4 real chances to win the title...that's it.

03 - Dirk gets hurt in WCF / Nellie was the coach
06 and 07 - No player as good as prime Manu or Parker / Avery Johnson was the coach
11 - Won it / Carlisle was the coach

The margin for error on this shit is paper thin for a team like the Mavs that isn't going to overwhelm you with talent (similar to the Spurs)...and the simple truth is that it's really hard to win a title if you don't have multiple all nba or at least all star players and also have crap coaching.

[pastis]

Dmavs41 and creepingdeath::applause: :applause: :applause: :bowdown: :bowdown:

i hope fvcking TLP will be happy when Dirk retires, hate him so much

[mehyaM24]

fpllii with yet ANOTHER alt account. :facepalm

prometheus,kirbypls,j.shuttlesworth,vengefulangel. am i missing any? :oldlol:

[J Shuttlesworth]

fpllii with yet ANOTHER alt account. :facepalm

prometheus,kirbypls,j.shuttlesworth,vengefulangel. am i missing any? :oldlol:
STFU KENNETH

[mehyaM24]

STFU KENNETH

....is that 5 now? :biggums:

[SCdac]

so you wanna really say that duncan is better than dirk in the playoffs. ey du kleiner benge, comon.

Dirk in playoffs better than Bird, Duncan, Wade etc. So pls only accept this.

:facepalm

[pastis]

Dmavs41 and creepingdeath::applause: :applause: :applause: :bowdown: :bowdown:

i hope fvcking TLP will be happy when Dirk retires, hate him so much


:applause: :applause: :applause:

[dubeta]

I'm telling you when look at it objectively Kobe is not even in the discussion with Bran

Kobe stans love to hide behind sidekick rings and 81 points but all advanced statistics show Bran>>>>> Kobe and its not even close

When will the stans learn? :facepalm

[VengefulAngel]

I'm telling you when look at it objectively Kobe is not even in the discussion with Bran

Kobe stans love to hide behind sidekick rings and 81 points but all advanced statistics show Bran>>>>> Kobe and its not even close

When will the stans learn? :facepalm

All advanced stats have Lebron as top 2-3 of all time, but these stat's will likely go down as he ages.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I'm telling you when look at it objectively Kobe is not even in the discussion with Bran

Kobe stans love to hide behind sidekick rings and 81 points but all advanced statistics show Bran>>>>> Kobe and its not even close

When will the stans learn? :facepalm
Even his stans are calling him Bran now? Kobe>>>Bran. 5>>>2 due to collusion.

[Ne 1]

All 30 + PER playoff runs

LBJ is having another 30 + PER playoff run.

1. Hakeem Olajuwon* 38.96 1988 HOU
2. LeBron James 37.39 2009 CLE
3. George Mikan* 33.58 1954 MNL
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 32.35 1977 LAL
5. Michael Jordan* 32.04 1991 CHI
6. Julius Erving* 31.98 1976 NYA
7. Tim Duncan 31.80 2002 SAS
8. Michael Jordan* 31.67 1990 CHI
9. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.31 1964 SFW
10. Shaquille O'Neal 31.00 1998 LAL
11. Chris Paul 30.70 2008 NOH
12. Shaquille O'Neal 30.61 2003 LAL
13. Shaquille O'Neal 30.45 2000 LAL
14. Julius Erving* 30.45 1972 VIR
15. Tim Duncan 30.39 2006 SAS
16. LeBron James 30.34 2012 MIA
17. Michael Jordan* 30.06 1993 CHI
So according to Hollinger's made up formula, Shaq was better in the 1998 and 2003 playoffs than he was in the 2000 and 2001 playoffs. Obviously, we all know that Shaq in the 2000 and 2001 playoffs was easily better than he was in the 1998/2003 playoffs and we also know that Shaq in 2000/2001 was better than Shaq in 1998.

[VengefulAngel]

So according to Hollinger's made up formula, Shaq was better in the 1998 and 2003 playoffs than he was in the 2000 and 2001 playoffs. Obviously, we all know that Shaq in the 2000 and 2001 playoffs was easily better than he was in the 1998/2003 playoffs and we also know that Shaq in 2000/2001 was better than Shaq in 1998.

You obviously have no idea what PER is...

Before you comment please do some research...

[2010splash]

Mikan doesn't count since he played in a weak era. But after that it's no surprise to see the two greatest players ever (Jordan and LeBron) at 1 and 2. Notice how Kobe and Bird (probably the two most overrated players) are nowhere to be found.:oldlol:

[Beastmode88]

What's mj and bran's PER during the finals? :confusedshrug:

[ArbitraryWater]

Exactly.


:biggums:

Your argument made no sense... you tried to discredit PER, and failed.

[Mr Feeny]

:biggums:

Your argument made no sense... you tried to discredit PER, and failed.

He pwned you to be fair:lol

[ArbitraryWater]

So according to Hollinger's made up formula, Shaq was better in the 1998 and 2003 playoffs than he was in the 2000 and 2001 playoffs. Obviously, we all know that Shaq in the 2000 and 2001 playoffs was easily better than he was in the 1998/2003 playoffs and we also know that Shaq in 2000/2001 was better than Shaq in 1998.

:banghead: You retards ever heard of sample size?

If we are strictly comparing the 1998 and 2000 Runs through 3 Rounds, then yeah, why not?

1998: 31/10/3/1/3 on 61%
2000: 28/15/3/0/2 on 55%

Got him beat in 4 of the 6 categories and one is tied

Looks somewhat reasonable to me... PER puts a big focus to scoring, that's definitely where it comes from.

[Shih508]

Duncan has one of the greatest peak. This proves it!

Duncan > Kobe !

[Ne 1]

You obviously have no idea what PER is...

Before you comment please do some research... But I do know. PER is a subjective and flawed formula made up by John Hollinger. Hollinger gave the most value to what he thought was most important. Essentially anyone could make a similar stat to PER crediting one category more then another, and thus the list would change.

It isn't anymore viable then if anyone on this site were to make a formula up with their personal beliefs of how stats should be valued.

[Rocketswin2013]

Rank Player PER
1. Michael Jordan* 28.60
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 27.54
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.13
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Chris Paul 25.08
7. Tim Duncan 24.72
8. Kevin Durant 24.45
9. Charles Barkley* 24.18
10. Dirk Nowitzki

:bowdown: :bowdown: MJ and LBJ.

Other Notables:
14. Dwyane Wade 23.08
15. Jerry West* 23.06
17. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 23.01
22. Kobe Bryant 22.40
23. Russell Westbrook 22.18
It's nice that you left out Dwight Howard right at #11 all-time with 23.8, OP. :applause:

[VengefulAngel]

It's nice that you left out Dwight Howard right at #11 all-time with 23.8, OP. :applause:

Sorry Dwight, sorry Rocketswin, don't take it personally...

[Rocketswin2013]

Sorry Dwight, sorry Rocketswin, don't take it personally...
:lol