2010 Laker's playoffs, Kobe vs. Gasol

[Derivative]

2010 Playoffs

Kobe: 24.7 PER, 3.6 Winshare

Gasol: 24.0 PER, 4.3 Winshare

Seems like Gasol was the alpha for the series, this is the only team in history in which the "best" player has a significant lower winshare than another teammate.
:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[diamenz]

http://img.pr0gramm.com/2014/05/20/cc8e4006b23c5b1b.gif

[secund2nun]

Gasol was the best player on those Laker title teams and he should have won both FMVPs.

[T_L_P]

2009/10 Kobe-Gasol was a little like 2001/02 Shaq-Kobe.

In 2001, Kobe was slightly behind Shaq in value. In 2002, Shaq clearly became the most important player again.

In 2009, Kobe was the clear-cut best player on his team. In 2010, Gasol could be argued to have as much value of Bean.

[JT123]

2010 Playoffs

Kobe: 24.7 PER, 3.6 Winshare

Gasol: 24.0 PER, 4.3 Winshare

Seems like Gasol was the alpha for the series, this is the only team in history in which the "best" player has a significant lower winshare than another teammate.
:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:
Yet Kobe stans remain sooooo ungrateful after Gasol saved their boy's legacy be carrying him to 2 post Shaq era rings. :facepalm Just how good was Gasol in those title runs? Honestly he played better than Wade did in Miami's last 2 title runs. :eek: I'm dead serious, and the numbers back this up.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Win share: The stats that has Malone better than Jordan, Stockton over Lebron

PER: the stat that has Neil Johnston, Cp3, D Wade, Bob Pettit & Charles Barkely being better than Magic, Kareem & Bird

[LeBron 06]

Win share: The stats that has Malone better than Jordan, Stockton over Lebron

PER: the stat that has Neil Johnston, Cp3, D Wade, Bob Pettit & Charles Barkely being better than Magic, Kareem & Bird


The PER and Win share are very good if you compare the players with the same playing time

[Milbuck]

Gasol 1st round: 18/12/4/1 on 58% TS
Bryant 1st round: 24/4/4/1 on 51% TS

Gasol 2nd round: 24/15/3/3/1 on 68% TS
Bryant 2nd round: 32/5/6/1/1 on 61% TS

Gasol WCF: 20/7/4/2 on 61% TS
Bryant WCF: 34/7/8/1/1 on 64% TS

Gasol Finals: 19/12/4/3/1 on 56% TS
Bryant Finals: 29/8/4/2/1 on 53% TS

Gasol Overall: 20/11/4/2 on 60% TS
Bryant Overall: 29/6/6/1/1 on 57% TS

I'd say Gasol outplayed Kobe in the 1st round. I think the 2nd round was a wash. The WCF was without a doubt Kobe, and the Finals would also be Kobe.

So we have Kobe getting 2 of the 4 rounds, Gasol 1, and 1 being a wash. Kobe had the overall better numbers throughout the playoffs.



This is pretty similar to Lebron and Wade's 2011 run.

Wade 1st round: 22/8/5/2/1 on 53% TS
James 1st round: 24/11/6/1/1 on 59% TS

Wade 2nd round: 30/7/5/2/1 on 62% TS
James 2nd round: 28/8/4/2/2 on 55% TS

Wade ECF: 19/6/2/2/1 on 50% TS
James ECF: 26/8/7/2/2 on 57% TS

Wade Finals: 27/7/5/2/2 on 61% TS
James Finals: 18/7/7/2/1 on 54% TS

Wade Overall: 25/7/4/2/1 on 57% TS
James Overall: 24/8/6/2/1 on 56% TS

Here I think Lebron gets the edge in the 1st round. I'd give Wade the slight edge in the 2nd round. Lebron gets the ECF without a doubt. Same for Wade in the finals.

So we have 2 series for Wade and 2 series for Lebron. Wade had the overall better stats through the playoffs. I think this duo was closer in talent than Kobe and Gasol at the time.

[Ne 1]

Win shares, like PER is another made up metric. You dorks need to get it through your head that basketball can't be simply contained by numerical data, and formulas ...

Seriously, I want you to go to a gym, or a barber shop ...

Say Gasol is better than Kobe, say Gasol was better than Kobe in 2010, and watch the looks you get.

At the gym someone may even throw a ball at you for your stupidity.

At the barber shop you may get stabbed with some clippers.

Then give them your reason why your clear idiotic and wrong opinion is what it is ... "win shares"

And watch everyone start laughing at you. Then explain how basketball is a formula. :oldlol:

[Heavincent]

In 2010, Gasol could be argued to have as much value of Bean.

lol no.

[Ne 1]

The PER and Win share are very good if you compare the players with the same playing time
No. Basketball is a game, not a mathematical equation.

[T_L_P]

Win share: The stats that has Malone better than Jordan, Stockton over Lebron

PER: the stat that has Neil Johnston, Cp3, D Wade, Bob Pettit & Charles Barkely being better than Magic, Kareem & Bird

Of course Malone had more WS than Jordan; he played 400 more games. We're comparing players on the same team over the same number of games. WS in this sense is very valid.

Malone's Playoff WS: 193 games, 23.0 WS
Jordan's Playoff WS: 174 games, 39.8 WS

[Heavincent]

The Suns might have been a better overall team than the Lakers in 2010. Kobe saved their asses in that series.

[T_L_P]

lol no.

He really could though. Smart shot selection, defensive anchor, generally tougher individual matchups.

[LeBron 06]

The Suns might have been a better overall team than the Lakers in 2010. Kobe saved their asses in that series.


The suns was great in offense(1st in the nba) but terrible in defense in 2010(23rd in the nba)


The suns was not better than the lakers in 2010

[Heavincent]

He really could though. Smart shot selection, defensive anchor, generally tougher individual matchups.

I thought you were a reasonable poster?

Kobe was a top 3 player in 2010, arguably THE best. Gasol was borderline top 10. End of discussion.

I guess you forgot how dominant Kobe was in the 2010 playoffs. He was quite clearly the best player not only on the Lakers, but of the entire post season.

[Ne 1]

Every person in their right mind knows that Kobe was clearly the leader of the 2009/2010 Lakers, and clearly more important to the Lakers winning back-to-back titles.
Pau Gasol, while a great player and essential to the Lakers 3 straight Finals and back-to-back rings, the thing is, most the time when you see him play, You barely remember him doing much in the game. At the end of the game, he has something likee 17/12. That was the quietest double double I've ever seen. Pau never straight out dominate games. Kobe does.

You dorks who think Gasol was better than Kobe because of PER or win shares, go back to watching Tron, you nerdy ass corn balls. Basketball clearly isn't for you.

[Milbuck]

The Suns might have been a better overall team than the Lakers in 2010. Kobe saved their asses in that series.
I don't know if they were better than the Lakers, but they were a very, very good team. I hate using the term Jordanesque...but that's what Kobe was in that series. Absolutely ripped Phoenix apart. 34/7/8/1/1 on 52/43/88 shooting.

He really could though. Smart shot selection, defensive anchor, generally tougher individual matchups.
Look at the numbers I put up. Not PER or any other stat that would have you believing 2008 Chris Paul was better than peak Kareem, Magic, or Bird. There is literally only 1 series out of 4 that Gasol clearly outplayed Kobe in.

[Heavincent]

The suns was great in offense(1st in the nba) but terrible in defense in 2010(23rd in the nba)


The suns was not better than the lakers in 2010

Really? Cause the Lakers couldn't stop the Suns at all in that series. Their defense got torched in just about every game.

They would have lost if Kobe didn't put up those huge numbers (34/8/7 on 52% shooting)

[LeBron 06]

I thought you were a reasonable poster?

Kobe was a top 3 player in 2010, arguably THE best. Gasol was borderline top 10. End of discussion.

I guess you forgot how dominant Kobe was in the 2010 playoffs. He was quite clearly the best player not only on the Lakers, but of the entire post season.


I agree with you on Kobe and Gasol....I just disagree that the suns were better than the lakers in 2010....Kobe deserves all the credit for 2008 to 2010, but some lakers fan like kennethgriffin acted as if Gasol was a scrub

[red1]

leader of the team: kobe bryant
best player/most impact/best hair: pau gasol

[HOoopCityJones]

TLP you've officially lost all credibility.


Tony > Duncan

[HOoopCityJones]

leader of the team: kobe bryant
best player/most impact/best hair: pau gasol


Raptors = Never winning anything of significance. :cheers:

[T_L_P]

I thought you were a reasonable poster?

Kobe was a top 3 player in 2010, arguably THE best. Gasol was borderline top 10. End of discussion.

I guess you forgot how dominant Kobe was in the 2010 playoffs. He was quite clearly the best player not only on the Lakers, but of the entire post season.

When did I say it was Pau? I said he has a case. In the 2010 Playoffs, Gasol was anything but a borderline top 10 player.

All I'm saying is it'd be stupid to completely rule out Pau as being just as important as Kobe in the 2010 Playoffs. His raw stats aren't as good, but all the advanced stats are, and he was the defensive anchor of that team and not a high maintenance guy on offense (21 USG%).

[red1]

Raptors = Never winning anything of significance. :cheers:
made the playoffs this year doe. how bout dem lakers?

[T_L_P]

TLP you've officially lost all credibility.


Tony > Duncan

You lost it all when you said the '03 Spurs were better than the '10 Lakers. If I'm correct, 100% of the posters in the thread I made about it agreed that the Lakers were far better.

:cheers:

[Heavincent]

In the 2010 Playoffs, Gasol was anything but a borderline top 10 player.


Okay, but Kobe was THE best player in the playoffs. That's the consensus.

Frankly, I don't give a damn about PER and winshares. It's completely useless imo. Pretty sure Kobe had more winshares than Shaq in 01, so was he a better player in that postseason? No, although he was clearly the second best player in the league.

Raw stats + watching the games is more than enough. I don't need Hollinger's asinine formulas to form my opinions.

[Ne 1]

The suns was great in offense(1st in the nba) but terrible in defense in 2010(23rd in the nba)


The suns was not better than the lakers in 2010
the '10 Suns after the all-star break were actually a top 5 defense.

[TheMarkMadsen]

When did I say it was Pau? I said he has a case. In the 2010 Playoffs, Gasol was anything but a borderline top 10 player.

All I'm saying is it'd be stupid to completely rule out Pau as being just as important as Kobe in the 2010 Playoffs. His raw stats aren't as good, but all the advanced stats are, and he was the defensive anchor of that team and not a high maintenance guy on offense (21 USG%).

Who needs raw stats when you can look at advance stats and realize KD > Magic & Bird

NBA PER GOATS
1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.79
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain 26.13
6. Chris Paul 25.59
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Dwyane Wade 25.29
9. Neil Johnston 24.69
10. Charles Barkley 24.63
11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 24.58
12. Tim Duncan 24.56
13. Kevin Durant 24.53
14. Magic Johnson 24.11


advanced stats everybody :applause:

stop being a sheep, wake up and realize Cp3 > Kareem

[navy]

Kobe was better than Gasol, but Gasol was just as important to that team as Kobe was.

[Milbuck]

When did I say it was Pau? I said he has a case. In the 2010 Playoffs, Gasol was anything but a borderline top 10 player.

All I'm saying is it'd be stupid to completely rule out Pau as being just as important as Kobe in the 2010 Playoffs. His raw stats aren't as good, but all the advanced stats are, and he was the defensive anchor of that team and not a high maintenance guy on offense (21 USG%).
So was Manu the more impactful player in the 2005 playoffs over Duncan when he had the clear advantage in WS (4.2 to 3.5, 0.260 WS/48 to 0.191 WS/48), only 0.1 less PER (24.8 to 24.9), vastly superior TS (65% TS to 53% TS), better ORTG/DRTG discrepancy (124-104 = 20, 111-101 = 10)?

His raw stats aren't as good, but a ton of advanced stats point to him being more impactful in the playoffs than 28 year old, close to peak Duncan.

I obviously don't believe this, just pointing out the clear flaws in your argument.

[T_L_P]

Okay, but Kobe was THE best player in the playoffs.

Frankly, I don't give a damn about PER and winshares. It's completely useless imo. Pretty sure Kobe had more winshares than Shaq in 01, so was he a better player in that postseason? No, although he was clearly the second best player in the league.

In '01, Kobe was a fraction behind Shaq in terms of importance. :confusedshrug:

[T_L_P]

So was Manu the more impactful player in the 2005 playoffs over Duncan when he had the clear advantage in WS (4.2 to 3.5, 0.260 WS/48 to 0.191 WS/48), only 0.1 less PER (24.8 to 24.9), vastly superior TS (65% TS to 53% TS), better ORTG/DRTG discrepancy (124-104 = 20, 111-101 = 10)?

Nope, I'm still giving the slight edge to Duncan, as I am Kobe.

:cheers:

All I'm doing is creating the discussion. I haven't once said Pau > Kobe.

[HOoopCityJones]

made the playoffs this year doe. how bout dem lakers?

We're still recovering from going to three straight Finals and burning out in 2011.

Oh yea, you can have that ***** ass consolation prize Playoff appearance out East where half of you didn't even deserve your seeding. The REAL Ballers play out West. Yaw bums were just spoon fed what should be a Suns playoff birth.

Damn practice game conference for the Heat and Pacers.

Makes me sick. :oldlol:

[red1]

We're still recovering fro going to three straight Finals and burning out in 2011.

Oh yea, you can have that ***** ass consolation prize Playoff appearance out East where half of you didn't even deserve your seeding. The REAL Ballers play out West. Yaw bums were just spoon fed what should be a Suns playoff birth.

Damn practice game conference for the Heat and Pacers.

Makes me sick. :oldlol:
keep talking shit boy. I have the secret weapon that will drive your franchise into the dirt

[Heavincent]

In '01, Kobe was a fraction behind Shaq in terms of importance. :confusedshrug:

Well yeah, the disparity between Shaq and Kobe was smaller than the disparity between Kobe and Pau. I didn't see anything like this happening in the 2010 playoffs:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BESnCrgCAAEHKku.jpg:large

http://oi51.tinypic.com/2mq3v5i.jpg

[red1]

http://dy.snimg.com/story-image/3/10/4463077/138438-650-366.jpg

[HOoopCityJones]

keep talking shit boy. I have the secret weapon that will drive your franchise into the dirt

I remember the secret weapon that drove your Franchise into the dirt like it was yesterday.

http://losthatsportsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/kobe-81.jpg

[navy]

So was Manu the more impactful player in the 2005 playoffs over Duncan when he had the clear advantage in WS (4.2 to 3.5, 0.260 WS/48 to 0.191 WS/48), only 0.1 less PER (24.8 to 24.9), vastly superior TS (65% TS to 53% TS), better ORTG/DRTG discrepancy (124-104 = 20, 111-101 = 10)?

His raw stats aren't as good, but a ton of advanced stats point to him being more impactful in the playoffs than 28 year old, close to peak Duncan.

I obviously don't believe this, just pointing out the clear flaws in your argument.

Manu Ginobli is criminally underrated.

[T_L_P]

Manu Ginobli is criminally underrated.

6-4 in Finals MVP votes. People love bringing up '05.

Underrated? Not even.

[red1]

I remember the secret weapon that drove your Franchise into the dirt like it was yesterday.

Make your little jokes boy. You and I both know that your teams championship aspirations passed away alongside dr.buss. Good luck dealing with another 10 years of this guy

http://d1warraxuf7xh1.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Jim-Buss-wearing-a-black-Laker-hat-in-2011.jpg

[AnaheimLakers24]

Raptors = Never winning anything of significance. :cheers:
legit post.

[AnaheimLakers24]

I remember the secret weapon that drove your Franchise into the dirt like it was yesterday.

http://losthatsportsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/kobe-81.jpg
legit post.

[HOoopCityJones]

The funniest thing about Raptor fans, Clipper fans , Rocket fans and hell, even Warrior fans, they love to talk so much shit during a time when their Team is good, making Playoffs etc.

YET at the end of the day they still don't win shit!

That'll always be the difference between the Laker Franchise and the others, when we have the talent and momentum, very rarely does it all go to waste. I can count Twice.

[navy]

6-4 in Finals MVP votes. People love bringing up '05.

Underrated? Not even.
Nobody brings up Spurs championships.....

Definitely underrated. I didnt even know the vote was that close. What happens if they tie?

[red1]

:lol


http://www.edmondwu.com/sites/default/files/lakers-2013-nba-champs.jpg
http://coolnfunny.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/wpid-facebook_1217625783.jpg

[IllegalD]

Yet another Kobe thread!!! :rockon:

Kobe GOAT OF ISH!!! :applause:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ydk3KOgwe9s/S-UGj9zwaKI/AAAAAAAAAYE/uw640LMXSp8/s400/kobe+jesus.jpg

:bowdown:

[Milbuck]

This Kobe thread had like 2 and a half pages of legit discussion with minimal trolling before it went to shit. That's pretty impressive.

[T_L_P]

Nobody brings up Spurs championships.....

Definitely underrated. I didnt even know the vote was that close. What happens if they tie?

Hmm, I'm not actually sure. I'm guessing they do a joint MVP maybe?

[Magic 32]

Just how good was Gasol in those title runs? Honestly he played better than Wade did in Miami's last 2 title runs. :eek: I'm dead serious, and the numbers back this up.

Wade is a road warrior, Pau is a road p*ssy...

40% shooting in the last 5 road games. That some real MVP sh*t right there.

http://s8.postimg.org/d7w96is9x/image.png

[Rubio2Gasol]

Watch the Phoenix series.

[Anaximandro1]

Kobe was better for the simple reason that he had more responsibility.

Imagine what will happen if Kobe and Pau switch their roles : Kobe's efficiency would increase dramatically while Pau's efficiency would collapse.

Similar thing with Duncan and Manu in 2005. If you reduce Duncan's minutes and usage percentage, his efficiency would increase significantly. Good luck trying to play Manu for 38 minutes while increasing his usage percentage to 31%.



Win share: The stats that has Malone better than Jordan, Stockton over Lebron

PER: the stat that has Neil Johnston, Cp3, D Wade, Bob Pettit & Charles Barkely being better than Magic, Kareem & Bird
PER, WS, ORtg, DRtg need context: Similar minutes played, similar Usage percentage , similar seasons played etc.

if used correctly, they work very well. For example:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7l1WzDrDFeU/U4CBQ5wXofI/AAAAAAAAC4U/sfxMohRTweQ/s1600/23.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vpaqqKNciHQ/U4E1X0dGpOI/AAAAAAAAC4o/AKnUr63Np4g/s1600/24.jpg

[TheMarkMadsen]

PER, WS, ORtg, DRtg need context: Similar minutes played, similar Usage percentage , similar seasons played etc.

if used correctly, they work very well. For example:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7l1WzDrDFeU/U4CBQ5wXofI/AAAAAAAAC4U/sfxMohRTweQ/s1600/23.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vpaqqKNciHQ/U4E1X0dGpOI/AAAAAAAAC4o/AKnUr63Np4g/s1600/24.jpg

ok. Cp3 & Magic have both played about the same amount of years, have similar usage percentage and both play a tad over 36 mpg..

Chris Paul has a higher PER and a higher offensive rating than Magic Johnson..

[dreamwarrior]

tony parkers win shares this post season per 48 is .7 which is half of his reg season win shares. we've all seen how amazing he's been this post season...