Replace LeBron with MJ in 2011 Finals

[TheMan]

What are the possibilities MJ craps the bed like LeBron? There's a better chance of Team USA winning the WC than MJ looking shook Bran style...unlike Bran, MJ upped his averages when comparing RS to Finals stats, in other words, dude elavated his game.

Inquiring minds wanna know...

[J Shuttlesworth]

Lol come on dude. Everyone knows LeBron choked. Obviously, Jordan would have been the difference between LeBron and his disappearing in the 4th... It would have been a ring, no question. Not sure why people still worry about 2011 so much :lol

[red1]

rent free

http://larrybrownsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/lebron-james-towel-head.jpg

[stalkerforlife]

LMFAO...

MJ would NEVER get called out by JASON TERRY and then proceed to SHIT the bed.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

[SilkkTheShocker]

Good chance Wade would have been killed in retaliation for Jordan's unpaid gambling debt.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Mavs would hold MJ to 20 PPG on below 45% because they wouldnt let him get to the rim.
with his playmaking that wasnt as good as lebrons, i think the Mavs win in 6. especially since it was year one of that new team and MJ wouldnt have been able to play the defense lebron did.
OP is mad btw

[TheMan]

rent free

http://larrybrownsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/lebron-james-towel-head.jpg
Not really, this is in response to Bran stans dissing MJ in other threads, go troll them too.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Good chance Wade would have been killed in retaliation for Jordan's unpaid gambling debt.
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Kevin-Garnett-Reaction-at-2013-Dunk-Contest.gif
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_iFJtxt0rs_M/TUiFuotLOuI/AAAAAAAAACw/fP5HuJ53emk/s1600/kg1.gif
http://zaspany.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/2352036-9320081384-i9pJQ1.gif

[Real14]

heat in 5.

[Real14]

Not really, this is in response to Bran stans dissing MJ in other threads, go troll them too.
and he damn raptor fan at dat:lol

[Fudge]

They'd probably end the series in 5 or 6.

I think he'd win in 2007 too.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Not really, this is in response to Bran stans dissing MJ in other threads, go troll them too.
So you're admitting that you're as bad as trolls like livinglegend or kenneththegriffin?

[ImKobe]

Mavs would hold MJ to 20 PPG on below 45% because they wouldnt let him get to the rim.
with his playmaking that wasnt as good as lebrons, i think the Mavs win in 6. especially since it was year one of that new team and MJ wouldnt have been able to play the defense lebron did.
OP is mad btw

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

in your dreams

[red1]

They'd probably end the series in 5 or 6.

I think he'd win in 2007 too.
:roll:

[TheMan]

Mavs would hold MJ to 20 PPG on below 45% because they wouldnt let him get to the rim.
with his playmaking that wasnt as good as lebrons, i think the Mavs win in 6. especially since it was year one of that new team and MJ wouldnt have been able to play the defense lebron did.
OP is mad btw
Now the Mavs were an all time elite defensive team according to this stan. That post was probably the dumbest post I've ever read, that's really hard to do. Congrats :applause:


You shook

[Marlo_Stanfield]

MArion would shut MJ down.
remember MJ went up against the likes of craig ehlo and John starks:roll: :roll:

[Real14]

Good chance Wade would have been killed in retaliation for Jordan's unpaid gambling debt.
yea but pippen still living today tho:rolleyes: :facepalm

[J Shuttlesworth]

They'd probably end the series in 5 or 6.

I think he'd win in 2007 too.
I had hope for you Fudge. I can't believe you went full retard though. NEVER go full retard :facepalm

[stalkerforlife]

LMAO @ thinking MJ wouldn't have won the finals in 2007 with the Cavs.

WTF?

MJ would NEVER shit the bed like that.

[TheMan]

So you're admitting that you're as bad as trolls like livinglegend or kenneththegriffin?
If you don't consider your fellow Bran stan's thread 'LeBron on 86 Bulls' a troll thread, then this one ain't either. An interesting discussion of Bran's history of choking with MJ's lack of can be had :cheers:

[Kvnzhangyay]

LMAO @ thinking MJ wouldn't have won the finals in 2007 with the Cavs.

WTF?

MJ would NEVER shit the bed like that.


I hate clueless fans that never even watched MJ that say shit like this

MJ in 2007 is the equivalent of him getting raped without Pippen

[Trollsmasher]

I am not sure MJ coming off the bench behind Wade is going to help them much, especially without a SF:confusedshrug:

[J Shuttlesworth]

If you don't consider your fellow Bran stan's thread 'LeBron on 86 Bulls' a troll thread, then this one ain't either. An interesting discussion of Bran's history of choking with MJ's lack of can be had :cheers:
I didn't see that thread till now, but lol @ SilkkTheShocker getting you mad enough to make this thread :roll:

Silkk doing work :applause:

[jrong]

Trying to figure out where Wade plays in this scenario. PG or backup SG?

But, of course, he'd never come up small in a Finals. 33 ppg playoff average. 'Nuff said.

LeBron's GOAT ceiling is #2 for two reasons

1. He plays in the EC, which is now a marshmallow, but in Jordan's day, it was the best and the Central Division was the strongest in the league.

2. Wade provides a level of offensive pressure relief to LeBron that MJ could have only dreamed of having. No, Scottie didn't make up for it on the other end. It's not the same thing.

There was never a minute when MJ was not in charge of the Bulls' offensive destiny. Pippen didn't carry the offense for extended stretches or close out games. The only comparison is Shaq/Kobe.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Mavs would hold MJ to 20 PPG on below 45% because they wouldnt let him get to the rim.
with his playmaking that wasnt as good as lebrons, i think the Mavs win in 6. especially since it was year one of that new team and MJ wouldnt have been able to play the defense lebron did.
OP is mad btw

LMAO @ this. So the mighty 2011 Mavs are going to hold Jordan to far below his lowest ever averages in any playoff series? Right... :hammerhead:

[J Shuttlesworth]

LMAO @ thinking MJ wouldn't have won the finals in 2007 with the Cavs.

WTF?

MJ would NEVER shit the bed like that.
MJ could have dropped 27 a game i that series and the Cavs still would have lost. Nobody was bringing that team to a ring. I know you're a troll though so I'll let it slide

[Fudge]

I am not sure MJ coming off the bench behind Wade is going to help them much, especially without a SF:confusedshrug:
MJ could actually play all 5 positions, so starting at SF ain't no thang.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

LMAO @ this. So the mighty 2011 Mavs are going to hold Jordan to far below his lowest ever averages in any playoff series? Right... :hammerhead:
ANY MORDERN DEFENSE THAT PLAY A GREAT ZONE WOULD:banana: :rockon:

[Phantom84]

I hate clueless fans that never even watched MJ that say shit like this

MJ in 2007 is the equivalent of him getting raped without Pippen

Pretty much, and this is coming from someone who think Jordan is GOAT. No way in hell you are winning with a team that consist of Eric Snow, Larry Huges, Drew Gooden, lol.

The only person that I think might have a shot is a peak Shaq. Even then I still think it is doubtful since none of the Cav's scrub are knockdown shooter beside Gibson.

[TheMan]

MArion would shut MJ down.
remember MJ went up against the likes of craig ehlo and John starks:roll: :roll:
Marion has said MJ was his toughest defensive assignment ever, and this is late 30's-40s MJ.:oldlol:

FAIL :lol
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

kicking your ass is too damn easy :oldlol:

[LeBird]

LMAO @ thinking MJ wouldn't have won the finals in 2007 with the Cavs.

WTF?

MJ would NEVER shit the bed like that.

MJ doesn't even have a winning season (above .500) without Pippen. He isn't getting to the finals in the first place.

[stalkerforlife]

MJ could have dropped 27 a game i that series and the Cavs still would have lost. Nobody was bringing that team to a ring. I know you're a troll though so I'll let it slide

27? Why in the world would MJ EVER put up only 27? MJ averaged 33.6 in his finals career.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I didn't see that thread till now, but lol @ SilkkTheShocker getting you mad enough to make this thread :roll:

Silkk doing work :applause:

:oldlol: :pimp: :cheers:

[Straight_Ballin]

MJ doesn't even have a winning season (above .500) without Pippen. He isn't getting to the finals in the first place.

Wrong. And here is why:

2007 Cavs roster without Bron > 1986 roster without Jordan.

Next?

[TheMan]

I didn't see that thread till now, but lol @ SilkkTheShocker getting you mad enough to make this thread :roll:

Silkk doing work :applause:
Mad? Lol, not even. :cheers:

[J Shuttlesworth]

27? Why in the world would MJ EVER put up only 27? MJ averaged 33.6 in his finals career.
MJ couldn't get anything done until Pippen developed into a solid player. What makes you think he could have beaten the Spurs w/ some scrubs like the 07 Cavs?

[ImKobe]

MArion would shut MJ down.
remember MJ went up against the likes of craig ehlo and John starks:roll: :roll:

38 yr old MJ dropped 41 pts 4 reb 7 ast on 56% shooting and 60%TS against a 23 yr old Marion, who was much more athletic than he was in 2011.

Prime MJ would have destroyed midget Terry and a slower Marion.

39 yr old MJ also destroyed Terry with a 30 point game on 73%TS and a 28 point 8 assist game

MJ had a 43-point 10 reb 3 ast 4 stl game against prime Kidd in 03, and a 45 point 10 reb 7 ast 3 stl game in 02....:oldlol:
if old ass MJ can drop 30-40 points on guys that Lebron averaged 18 ppg against(over the hill versions of those guys), what would prime MJ do to TOSB versions of Terry, Marion, Kidd?

[TheMan]

MJ doesn't even have a winning season (above .500) without Pippen. He isn't getting to the finals in the first place.
2007 EC was BAD, prime Bird leads those Cavs to the Finals.

[Fudge]

Jordan would take those Laker teams with Luke Walton and Smush Parker to the Finals.

He'd reek havoc with that Cavs roster in 07. They'd win in 6 or 7. Period.

[LeBird]

Trying to figure out where Wade plays in this scenario. PG or backup SG?

But, of course, he'd never come up small in a Finals. 33 ppg playoff average. 'Nuff said.

LeBron's GOAT ceiling is #2 for two reasons

1. He plays in the EC, which is now a marshmallow, but in Jordan's day, it was the best and the Central Division was the strongest in the league.

2. Wade provides a level of offensive pressure relief to LeBron that MJ could have only dreamed of having. No, Scottie didn't make up for it on the other end. It's not the same thing.

There was never a minute when MJ was not in charge of the Bulls' offensive destiny. Pippen didn't carry the offense for extended stretches or close out games. The only comparison is Shaq/Kobe.


I think Jordan had a strong mentality and that helped him never to choke so bad in a finals...but he had people licking out his ass and he was never vilified for the asshole he was while he was playing. Lebron moves from Cleveland and damn near everyone wants him to fail with a passion. If Lebron had the same exact team but in Cleveland 2011 never happens.

But on your points:

1) Jordan won in the weakest era of basketball in the last 40 or so years.
2) Jordan wouldn't want there to be another scorer to take pressure off. He was a ball-hog who basically passed when he had no shot for most of his career. Heck, he'd probably try to get Wade traded. :lol

[aboss4real24]

Replace him with kd or Melo

they bring that ring home

No way n hell heat shouldnt have won that

Mavs were nt that great of a team

[J Shuttlesworth]

2007 EC was BAD, prime Bird leads those Cavs to the Finals.
No shit. Doesn't mean he would win it against the Spurs. If LeBron could get the Cavs to the finals, I'm confident MJ or Bird could have gotten them to the finals. Kobe? Probably not TBH. I don't see any of those guys actually winning a ring against the Spurs as a one man team. The Spurs can focus their entire defense toward one player and win the series.

[ImKobe]

I think Jordan had a strong mentality and that helped him never to choke so bad in a finals...but he had people licking out his ass and he was never vilified for the asshole he was while he was playing. Lebron moves from Cleveland and damn near everyone wants him to fail with a passion. If Lebron had the same exact team but in Cleveland 2011 never happens.

But on your points:

1) Jordan won in the weakest era of basketball in the last 40 or so years.
2) Jordan wouldn't want there to be another scorer to take pressure off. He was a ball-hog who basically passed when he had no shot for most of his career. Heck, he'd probably try to get Wade traded. :lol

1) that is complete bullshit
2) Jordan played with Pippen, someone that had 20 ppg seasons alongside MJ :biggums: :biggums:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Replace him with kd or Melo

they bring that ring home

No way n hell heat shouldnt have won that

Mavs were nt that great of a team
peak Dirk, Jason Terry playing the best of his career and automatic at times, Marion still athletic and very versatile,Jason Kidd still very good and the PERFECT floor spacer and general,Tyson Chandler, one year late rDPOX, protecting the rim.
a great fuqing bench.
best Coach in the NBA.
that team was FILTHY good.

[Straight_Ballin]

MJ couldn't get anything done until Pippen developed into a solid player. What makes you think he could have beaten the Spurs w/ some scrubs like the 07 Cavs?

And just who the hell do you think made Pippen a solid player? :lol It was Jordan working with Pippen 24/7.

Pippen admitted himself that Jordan worked with him extensively and shaped him into the player that he became.

WTF did Bron ever do? Join Wade who was already the 2nd best player in the league? Is that suppose to mean something to NBA fans? Does that earn respect? Fvck no!!! :lol

There really is no comparison here.

Next?

[Fudge]

Bird > Jordan

-LeBird

[stalkerforlife]

Is it safe to say Dirk ruined LeDefer's legacy while at the same time cementing his own?

I got Dirk higher on my all time list than LeCoward.

[LeBird]

Wrong. And here is why:

2007 Cavs roster without Bron > 1986 roster without Jordan.

Next?

Did you pull that from your ass? Yeah, I think you did. Gervin, Oakley and Woodridge... anyone of them far better than what was on that Cavs team, let alone all 3.

Jordan didn't make his team better. That Bulls franchise was stuttering until Pippen and Grant emerged. Jordan isn't taking no scrub team to any finals. 2007 Cavs or 1986 Bulls.

Heck, the 3-peat Bulls replaced Jordan with Pete Myers and they only went 2 less. :lol

[red1]

lebird is like the joker. his only purpose is to f*ck shit up :lol

[guy]

MJ doesn't even have a winning season (above .500) without Pippen. He isn't getting to the finals in the first place.

:oldlol: Jordan played 2 full seasons without Pippen early in his career, and then 2 on the Wizards in his late 30s/early 40. Hilarious how people use this like it really means a lot.



1) Jordan won in the weakest era of basketball in the last 40 or so years.

Did you even pay attention to the Eastern Conference this year? How about the year when a team as terrible as the 2007 Cavs could make the playoffs?

[ImKobe]

Did you pull that from your ass? Yeah, I think you did. Gervin, Oakley and Woodridge... anyone of them far better than what was on that Cavs team, let alone all 3.

Jordan didn't make his team better. That Bulls franchise was stuttering until Pippen and Grant emerged. Jordan isn't taking no scrub team to any finals. 2007 Cavs or 1986 Bulls.

Heck, the 3-peat Bulls replaced Jordan with Pete Myers and they only went 2 less. :lol

MJ didn't make his team better, but the 95 Bulls were 34 - 31 without MJ and went 13 - 4 after MJ returned...:rolleyes:

[The_Pharcyde]

Good chance Wade would have been killed in retaliation for Jordan's unpaid gambling debt.

Once again you just tell a different variation of the same joke.

Please tell the rent free response, that would make it beyond hilarious

[TheMan]

Bran stans getting murked...


My job is done here :pimp:

[aboss4real24]

peak Dirk, Jason Terry playing the best of his career and automatic at times, Marion still athletic and very versatile,Jason Kidd still very good and the PERFECT floor spacer and general,Tyson Chandler, one year late rDPOX, protecting the rim.
a great fuqing bench.
best Coach in the NBA.
that team was FILTHY good.


LOL @ The excuses

They werent a great talented team at all

and mia was on the verge of sweeping them with 5 min left in the 4th in game 2

Then it was all down hill frum there

Thanx to LB Going ghost not only in the 4th

But the whole 2nd half of games

[J Shuttlesworth]

And just who the hell do you think made Pippen a solid player? :lol It was Jordan working with Pippen 24/7.

Pippen admitted himself that Jordan worked with him extensively and shaped him into the player that he became.

WTF did Bron ever do? Join Wade who was already the 2nd best player in the league? Is that suppose to mean something to NBA fans? Does that earn respect? Fvck no!!! :lol

There really is no comparison here.

Next?
lol you're so mad that you're completely missing the point of what i said. If Jordan couldn't get it done before Pippen evolved, what makes you think he could have gotten it done with scrubs like Larry Hughes? GTFO out of here with that nonsense.

And for the record, Wade/Bosh are shooting their career high FG% w/ LeBron. Deal with it

[Dr Hawk]

Heat in 4.

[hitmanyr2k]

No shit. Doesn't mean he would win it against the Spurs. If LeBron could get the Cavs to the finals, I'm confident MJ or Bird could have gotten them to the finals. Kobe? Probably not TBH. I don't see any of those guys actually winning a ring against the Spurs as a one man team. The Spurs can focus their entire defense toward one player and win the series.

Lebron got single coverage with Bowen most of the time. Fact is Lebron's jumper was terrible and similar to every other NBA Finals he's been in he shot like shit from the perimeter. In fact his shot was broken just about that entire playoff run. It's not like the Cavs/Spurs series wasn't competitive. There was one blowout in that series which was Game 2. The rest of the games went down to the final minutes of the 4th qtr. A more dynamic offensive player with a better jumper like Jordan could have at least taken the series to more than 4 games.

[LeBird]

1) that is complete bullshit
2) Jordan played with Pippen, someone that had 20 ppg seasons alongside MJ :biggums: :biggums:

1) No it isn't, go learn read a book.
2) Pippen broke 20ppg 2 times and is a 16ppg career scorer. Comparing that with Wade in an attempt to bolster your argument makes you look like an idiot.


Bird > Jordan

-LeBird

Sure. But when it comes to improving your teammates, it doesn't need all this debating. :cheers:


:oldlol: Jordan played 2 full seasons without Pippen early in his career, and then 2 on the Wizards in his late 30s/early 40. Hilarious how people use this like it really means a lot.

They're also the periods that are comparable to the poor Cavs team that Lebron played with and got to the finals with.

Let me repeat: he got to the finals with them.

Jordan couldn't crack .500 with them.


Did you even pay attention to the Eastern Conference this year? How about the year when a team as terrible as the 2007 Cavs could make the playoffs?

I pay attention every year. Are you disputing that the years Jordan won wasn't the least competitive years in the NBA over the last few decades...really? :rolleyes:


2007 EC was BAD, prime Bird leads those Cavs to the Finals.

In terms of team impact, prime Bird is with Lebron no one else has their impact though.


MJ didn't make his team better, but the 95 Bulls were 34 - 31 without MJ and went 13 - 4 after MJ returned...:rolleyes:

Wait...so we're counting this season now? I thought Jordan fans didn't count this season because he lost in the playoffs because he wasn't ready.

Point stands: Jordan was a ridiculous player, but the net improvement he had on a team wasn't that great.

[Fudge]

Jordan is the greatest player in sports history.

[kamil]

rent free

http://larrybrownsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/lebron-james-towel-head.jpg

*raptors fan

[Fudge]

*raptors fan
Red1's a low key LeBron stan. He be slick like that.

[Beastmode88]

peak Dirk, Jason Terry playing the best of his career and automatic at times, Marion still athletic and very versatile,Jason Kidd still very good and the PERFECT floor spacer and general,Tyson Chandler, one year late rDPOX, protecting the rim.
a great fuqing bench.
best Coach in the NBA.
that team was FILTHY good.

So on paper you're saying they were better than Miami? You're saying that a peak Jason Terry is better than a peak Lebron James? Someone ban this jeremylin fan boy please.

[red1]

Red1's a low key LeBron stan. He be slick like that.
I can appreciate greatness. That is why the knicks are like dog vomit to me.

[GimmeThat]

What are the possibilities MJ craps the bed like LeBron? There's a better chance of Team USA winning the WC than MJ looking shook Bran style...unlike Bran, MJ upped his averages when comparing RS to Finals stats, in other words, dude elavated his game.

Inquiring minds wanna know...

"Can I please get a little bit of knowledge?
Somebody tell Roth that I don't love college
Cause the real world's kinda like Real World
And it's drama, so you are Svetlana"

[GimmeThat]

So on paper you're saying they were better than Miami? You're saying that a peak Jason Terry is better than a peak Lebron James? Someone ban this jeremylin fan boy please.


Which team you take, this year's Spurs or the Championship team Mavs?

[Beastmode88]

Which team you take, this year's Spurs or the Championship team Mavs?

Playing against who?

[GODbe]

Honestly LeBald could've been replaced by any top 15-20 player in the league at the time and Heat would've won with ease. I rewatched the 2011 finals recently and it was like he was playing for the other team. Even Jordan could've pulled off a win.

[guy]

They're also the periods that are comparable to the poor Cavs team that Lebron played with and got to the finals with.

Let me repeating: he got to the finals with them.

Jordan couldn't crack .500 with them.


They're really not comparable since the competition Jordan was facing those years in the East was clearly better and he had less years of experience at that point then Lebron did in 2007. The only thing comparable was that their supporting casts were about equally bad, but that ignores everything else I mentioned.




I pay attention every year. Are you disputing that the years Jordan won wasn't the least competitive years in the NBA over the last few decades...really? :rolleyes:

Says who? You? :rolleyes: There's nothing supporting that at all. And the level of competitiveness doesn't support "weak" or "strong". Lets say on a scale of 1-10, in scenario 1 there are 3 Level-10 teams in the league and 27 Level-7 teams in the league, and in scenario 2 there are 30 Level-5 teams. Scenario 2 would obviously be the more competitive league, so according to you it would be "stronger" era. You can't measure quality based on that.

Now what you can do is compare a subset of the league relative to the rest i.e. measuring the conferences relative to each other. In the 80s, clearly the East was much better then the West, in the 90s both conferences were about equal, and ever since 1999 the West has been much better then the West.

[aboss4real24]

The way Lebron played

heat wouldv lost to the toronto craptors

[Straight_Ballin]

I think the trend here is easily visable.

MJ on 2007 Cavs = Ring
MJ on 2011 Heat = Ring

Ones a leader, the other a follower. Simple as that really.

[LeBird]

They're really not comparable since the competition Jordan was facing those years in the East was clearly better and he had less years of experience at that point then Lebron did in 2007. The only thing comparable was that their supporting casts were about equally bad, but that ignores everything else I mentioned.


Says who? You? :rolleyes: There's nothing supporting that at all. And the level of competitiveness doesn't support "weak" or "strong". Lets say on a scale of 1-10, in scenario 1 there are 3 Level-10 teams in the league and 27 Level-7 teams in the league, and in scenario 2 there are 30 Level-5 teams. Scenario 2 would obviously be the more competitive league, so according to you it would be "stronger" era. You can't measure quality based on that.

Now what you can do is compare a subset of the league relative to the rest i.e. measuring the conferences relative to each other. In the 80s, clearly the East was much better then the West, in the 90s both conferences were about equal, and ever since 1999 the West has been much better then the West.


Only idiots or Jordan stans dispute it. The East being more competitive with respect to the West in that era doesn't detract from the fact that the era in question was dogshit in comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p57WjbKSoJ0

[Fudge]

Only idiots or Jordan stans dispute it. The East being more competitive with respect to the West in that era doesn't detract from the fact that the era in question was dogshit in comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p57WjbKSoJ0
Give it up. He got you. :oldlol:

[LeBird]

Give it up. He got you. :oldlol:

He asks says who and I give him a video of Bird and Dr J, Magic talking about this very discussion.

If that's not ownage then you're a dumbass. Lose-lose situation for you.

[TheMan]

Lebron got single coverage with Bowen most of the time. Fact is Lebron's jumper was terrible and similar to every other NBA Finals he's been in he shot like shit from the perimeter. In fact his shot was broken just about that entire playoff run. It's not like the Cavs/Spurs series wasn't competitive. There was one blowout in that series which was Game 2. The rest of the games went down to the final minutes of the 4th qtr. A more dynamic offensive player with a better jumper like Jordan could have at least taken the series to more than 4 games.
This

[guy]

Only idiots or Jordan stans dispute it. The East being more competitive with respect to the West in that era doesn't detract from the fact that the era in question was dogshit in comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p57WjbKSoJ0

Hmm. Great response. :rolleyes:

I find it funny that you like to focus so much on "eras" and "competition" but then completely ignore how much that affected Jordan's chances and Lebron's chances to lead bad teams at young ages to the Finals. Oh well, whatever helps your argument. Hypocrite. :oldlol:



He asks says who and I give him a video of Bird and Dr J, Magic talking about this very discussion.

If that's not ownage then you're a dumbass. Lose-lose situation for you.

I must've missed the part where those 3 said that the 90s is the weakest era of the LAST 40 YEARS i.e. 1974-today. :oldlol:

And they may not be wrong but of course there going to prop there era up. What's the difference between that and the countless players and coaches from the 90s that say Jordan would average 40-50 ppg today? In fact, pretty much every player from the 80s/90s shits on today's era i.e. Lebron's era. They can't even hide their cringeworthiness of some of the top teams of today, like OKC for example.

And by the way, they don't even talk extremely badly of the 90s. Bird says expansion hurt the game, Dr. J implies the Bulls couldn't beat a total of 3 or 4 of the great teams from the 80s, and Magic doesn't even talk about the Bulls competition only about how he thinks the Lakers would beat them in a tough 6 or 7 games series (and of course he has no biased opinion there :oldlol: ).

But yes, you sure owned me :rolleyes:

[TheMan]

LeBird ia just another Eurotrash Bran stan new to this sport pretending to be an unbiased fan. Clearly shook by MJ's greatness. :bowdown:

You've been exposed

[dubeta]

First off all, why are Kobe/Jordan stans assuming Jordan can even lead the Heat to the finals?? :roll: :roll:

You have a team with 2 SG's (Jordan, wade) none of them is big enough to play SF, none of them has the playmaking ability to play PG, and none of them are great 3 point shooters

they basically cancel each other out, make each other redundant

And LeBron had these clutch games in the previous 2 rounds to get them to the Finals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rxU9s2TqDc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgLMI784M4E

LeBron was INSANELY clutch to get the Heat into the Finals, especially when Wade was inconsistent in the 2nd and 3rd round


LOL if you think Jordan is doing this


LeBron>>>> Jordan deal with it Jordan stans

[DonDadda59]

Unfortunately even MJ couldn't overcome the great Jason Terry, or score more than 8 points in a game... or do anything in the fourth quarter.





























http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111119363/3816676-0704928121-36645.gif

[Young X]

MJ doesn't even have a winning season (above .500) without Pippen. He isn't getting to the finals in the first place.What team would they have lost to on their way to the finals?

And if they get to the finals, Bron averaged 22/7/7 on 36% with 6 TO's per game and the games were still close. If MJ averages at least 27/6/6 on 48%, how don't they have a chance?

[TheMarkMadsen]

LeBird ia just another Eurotrash Bran stan new to this sport pretending to be an unbiased fan. Clearly shook by MJ's greatness. :bowdown:

You've been exposed

it's pauk

:roll: :roll:

[TheMan]

First off all, why are Kobe/Jordan stans assuming Jordan can even lead the Heat to the finals?? :roll: :roll:

You have a team with 2 SG's (Jordan, wade) none of them is big enough to play SF, none of them has the playmaking ability to play PG, and none of them are great 3 point shooters

they basically cancel each other out, make each other redundant

And LeBron had these clutch games in the previous 2 rounds to get them to the Finals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rxU9s2TqDc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgLMI784M4E

LeBron was INSANELY clutch to get the Heat into the Finals, especially when Wade was inconsistent in the 2nd and 3rd round


LOL if you think Jordan is doing this


LeBron>>>> Jordan deal with it Jordan stans
ROFL...too stupid to even warrant a response :no:

[LeBird]

Hmm. Great response. :rolleyes:

I find it funny that you like to focus so much on "eras" and "competition" but then completely ignore how much that affected Jordan's chances and Lebron's chances to lead bad teams at young ages to the Finals. Oh well, whatever helps your argument. Hypocrite. :oldlol:

How does it?

I'm not the one saying Lebron is the GOAT. You're the ones saying Jordan is. So the onus is on your argument to make consistent sense. If you're gonna shit on Lebron for not winning in 2011 for example; then you have to acknowledge that this era is currently putting up teams tougher than what Jordan faced in his finals.

You want to say that Lebron taking the Cavs isn't that notable because their conference was weak; well you then have to accept that Jordan's titles mean much less because his were won against really weak teams too. And on the other hand, even when the competition was strong; he still didn't do anything with his crap team that compares to what Lebron did with his crap team.


I must've missed the part where those 3 said that the 90s is the weakest era of the LAST 40 YEARS i.e. 1974-today. :oldlol:

And they may not be wrong but of course there going to prop there era up. What's the difference between that and the countless players and coaches from the 90s that say Jordan would average 40-50 ppg today? In fact, pretty much every player from the 80s/90s shits on today's era i.e. Lebron's era. They can't even hide their cringeworthiness of some of the top teams of today, like OKC for example.

And by the way, they don't even talk extremely badly of the 90s. Bird says expansion hurt the game, Dr. J implies the Bulls couldn't beat a total of 3 or 4 of the great teams from the 80s, and Magic doesn't even talk about the Bulls competition only about how he thinks the Lakers would beat them in a tough 6 or 7 games series (and of course he has no biased opinion there :oldlol: ).

But yes, you sure owned me :rolleyes:

Well, considering they were being asked about this in the 90s, it's going to be hard for them to travel in the future then back in the past. From the 80s onwards, the 90s is the weakest era. The standout team by far were those Bulls; and no one comparable. After those Bulls you have other smaller dynasties, but not ones that were forged through weak adversaries.

As for the bolded...they're not going to go on TV and shit on the NBA now are they? It's their duty as custodians (even financially for themselves) to keep the game interesting and lauded. But when they're casting aspersions on the quality of the teams or that they couldn't beat 3-4 teams...that's enough to say that there is no way the Bulls win 6 in the 80s.

And if the Bulls don't win 6 then there goes most of Jordan's thunder for his case as GOAT.

[dubeta]

ROFL...too stupid to even warrant a response :no:

LOL you shook, run away now since you have no response

[jrong]

First off all, why are Kobe/Jordan stans assuming Jordan can even lead the Heat to the finals?? :roll: :roll:

You have a team with 2 SG's (Jordan, wade) none of them is big enough to play SF, none of them has the playmaking ability to play PG, and none of them are great 3 point shooters

they basically cancel each other out, make each other redundant

And LeBron had these clutch games in the previous 2 rounds to get them to the Finals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rxU9s2TqDc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgLMI784M4E

LeBron was INSANELY clutch to get the Heat into the Finals, especially when Wade was inconsistent in the 2nd and 3rd round


LOL if you think Jordan is doing this


LeBron>>>> Jordan deal with it Jordan stans

Wade averaged 30 on 53% in the second round. James averaged 28 on 47%. Try again.

[LeBird]

What team would they have lost to on their way to the finals?

And if they get to the finals, Bron averaged 22/7/7 on 36% with 6 TO's per game and the games were still close. If MJ averages at least 27/6/6 on 48%, how don't they have a chance?

Who says they get to the finals in the first place...meaning, who says that Jordan would even gel with the Miami players. The main guy helping him (Wade) is an SG himself and a volume scorer. The reason the Heat are what they are now (and even still having to go through tough series to win) is because Lebron actually passes the ball and has had to increase his efficiency year on year to even post the same numbers.

Asking this question specifically with a view to that finals is irrelevant insofar as the name of Jordan applies. It could apply to any star capable of better numbers than what Lebron put up. The guy didn't play well in those finals...that's clearcut. It shouldn't rob him of the credit in getting there however. People just want to use it as cheap criticism.

[dubeta]

Wade averaged 30 on 53% in the second round. James averaged 28 on 47%. Try again.

I said INCONSISTENT not bad, :facepalm , he had a great game 1 and game 5, but games 2-4 he was inefficient shooting in the low 40%

[jrong]

You have a team with 2 SG's (Jordan, wade) none of them is big enough to play SF, none of them has the playmaking ability to play PG

How old are you, son? Jordan averaged 33/ 8/ 8 the year he played PG. He averaged 31 pts and 11 asts in the Finals against Magic.

Wade played PG his first two years in the league. From 2005 to 2010 he averaged between 6.5 - 7.5 asts per game-- until LeBron got there.

You know nothing about Jordan or Wade. Stop talking about them.

[red1]

dubeta just go home son. give it a crack tomorrow

[dubeta]

How old are you, son? Jordan averaged 33/ 8/ 8 the year he played PG. He averaged 31 pts and 11 asts in the Finals against Magic.

Wade played PG his first two years in the league. From 2005 to 2010 he averaged between 6.5 - 7.5 asts per game-- until LeBron got there.

You know nothing about Jordan or Wade. Stop talking about them.

Allen Iverson is a great playmaker since he puts up 7+ assists? Westbrook gets 5-7 assists a game is he a great playmaker? stop hiding behind stats. If MJ or Wade play point guard there are still going to be numerous times when they are going to force the issue and chuck instead of running the correct play

And Jordans 33/8/8 is the GOAT statpadding season, he played exclusively for stats, and routinely checked the box score during games to get his numbers

Trust me if Wade or Jordan was your teams starting PG for a championship team you are going to fail.

[red1]

Allen Iverson is a great playmaker since he puts up 7+ assists? Westbrook gets 5-7 assists a game is he a great playmaker? stop hiding behind stats. If MJ or Wade play point guard there are still going to be numerous times when they are going to force the issue and chuck instead of running the correct play

And Jordans 33/8/8 is the GOAT statpadding season, he played exclusively for stats, and routinely checked the box score during games to get his numbers

Trust me if Wade or Jordan was your teams starting PG for a championship team you are going to fail.
son please

http://i3.minus.com/ittCy9YN7q57S.jpg

[jrong]

Allen Iverson is a great playmaker since he puts up 7+ assists? Westbrook gets 5-7 assists a game is he a great playmaker? stop hiding behind stats. If MJ or Wade play point guard there are still going to be numerous times when they are going to force the issue and chuck instead of running the correct play

And Jordans 33/8/8 is the GOAT statpadding season, he played exclusively for stats, and routinely checked the box score during games to get his numbers

Trust me if Wade or Jordan was your teams starting PG for a championship team you are going to fail.

Yes, Jordan and Wade, such low basketball IQ players.

Please just stop.

[Young X]

Who says they get to the finals in the first place...meaning, who says that Jordan would even gel with the Miami players. The main guy helping him (Wade) is an SG himself and a volume scorer. The reason the Heat are what they are now (and even still having to go through tough series to win) is because Lebron actually passes the ball and has had to increase his efficiency year on year to even post the same numbers.

Asking this question specifically with a view to that finals is irrelevant insofar as the name of Jordan applies. It could apply to any star capable of better numbers than what Lebron put up. The guy didn't play well in those finals...that's clearcut. It shouldn't rob him of the credit in getting there however. People just want to use it as cheap criticism.My reply was to your reply about the 2007 finals not the 2011 finals.

Even in terms of the 2011 Heat, MJ would actually fit better with Wade. He's alot less ball dominant and a better off-ball player than Bron was at the time which would allow Wade to play his natural game and be more of a playmaker (look at his assists before and after teaming up with Bron).

In terms of efficiency MJ was clearly more efficient than 2011 Bron (check their ORTG's).

It's ironic that you keep talking about Jordan not making his teammates better when it's Wade and Bosh who have gotten worse while playing with Bron. Hmm...

Look at the cast Dwight got to the finals in the east, if you really think MJ can't take a better cast to the finals then you're delusional.

[LeBird]

My reply was to your reply about the 2007 finals not the 2011 finals.

Even in terms of the 2011 Heat, MJ would actually fit better with Wade. He's alot less ball dominant and a better off-ball player than Bron was at the time which would allow Wade to play his natural game and be more of a playmaker (look at his assists before and after teaming up with Bron).

In terms of efficiency MJ was clearly more efficient than 2011 Bron (check their ORTG's).

It's ironic that you keep talking about Jordan not making his teammates better when it's Wade and Bosh who have gotten worse while playing with Bron. Hmm...

Look at the cast Dwight got to the finals in the 2009 east, if you really think MJ can't take a better cast to the finals then you're delusional.

It's still cheap criticism. It depends which version of Jordan you're talking about. Are you talking about the shot-jacking, ball-dominating Jordan? Then who says they even get to the finals in 2011 with him there? Facilitating for Wade? Please.

And in a roundabout way, that's the entire point re this debate: that basketball isn't played in a vacuum and shit doesn't happen in a linear fashion. That Lebron failed in 2011 was because he was good enough to get there and fail; that's all we know. The same as anyone achieving anything. He might end up winning 7 rings, but it probably took him to psychologically adjust after losing in 2011 that way to do it.

The reason Wade and Bosh have gotten worse has nothing to do with Lebron (that they're still winning is actually a credit to him and him being able to get the best out of a player who clearly can't lead and another who is unable (injured)). Ironically, how would Jordan, who was far less of a team man than Lebron get them to play better? It's just another point of cheap criticism designed to do no more than score points.

[Dragonyeuw]

MArion would shut MJ down.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CKKhY4BGhNM

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=huJwvtKbnqQ


So lets review this: Prime Marion got lid up by 40 year old Jordan, but prime Jordan will get shut down by past prime Marion in 2011.... in the finals?

[guy]

If you're gonna shit on Lebron for not winning in 2011 for example; then you have to acknowledge that this era is currently putting up teams tougher than what Jordan faced in his finals.

You want to say that Lebron taking the Cavs isn't that notable because their conference was weak; well you then have to accept that Jordan's titles mean much less because his were won against really weak teams too. And on the other hand, even when the competition was strong; he still didn't do anything with his crap team that compares to what Lebron did with his crap team.

I don't have to acknowledge the first point because I don't even agree with it and even if the 2011 Mavs are better then any team Jordan faced in the Finals, that in no way excuses Lebron's performance in the 2011 Finals. Am I supposed to set aside Lebron's performance because maybe Jordan would've had the same performance? Of course not, because there's absolutely no reason to think Jordan, and plenty of other players for that matter, would've had such a god-awful performance.

To your second point, I never said it wasn't notable. Its a great achievement. But its not like he would've done that in the 80s/90s. I do think Jordan with the 87-89 Bulls, all pretty weak teams, could've done what Lebron and the Cavs did in 2007. I don't think and most people don't think that Jordan faced weak competition in 90s, maybe a lot of people think it was weaker then the 80s but not weak in general. And even if we should count his rings less or something, I don't think and I think most people don't think he's better then everyone else just cause of rings.




Well, considering they were being asked about this in the 90s, it's going to be hard for them to travel in the future then back in the past. From the 80s onwards, the 90s is the weakest era. The standout team by far were those Bulls; and no one comparable. After those Bulls you have other smaller dynasties, but not ones that were forged through weak adversaries.

As for the bolded...they're not going to go on TV and shit on the NBA now are they? It's their duty as custodians (even financially for themselves) to keep the game interesting and lauded. But when they're casting aspersions on the quality of the teams or that they couldn't beat 3-4 teams...that's enough to say that there is no way the Bulls win 6 in the 80s.

And if the Bulls don't win 6 then there goes most of Jordan's thunder for his case as GOAT.

Well considering your initial comment was about the LAST 40 years and not comparing just the 80s and 90s, maybe you shouldn't have used a video from the mid 90s.

Being a standout team doesn't mean you're facing weak competition, it just means you're a cut above the rest. I guess my 0-10 scale analogy went right over your head. Put the Dream Team in the 90s and they'll win every championship and the only standout , but now this would make the 80s "weaker" according to you.

Jordan was getting called GOAT even before he won a title. He was pretty much universally thought of as better then Magic and Bird after his first retirement. And those 2 pretty much acknowledge that. You want to post those videos? Him not winning 6 in the 80s doesn't mean much anyway, cause everyone else is probably winning less as well.

[Young X]

It's still cheap criticism. It depends which version of Jordan you're talking about. Are you talking about the shot-jacking, ball-dominating Jordan? Then who says they even get to the finals in 2011 with him there? Facilitating for Wade? Please.I'm talking about prime MJ from '88-'96. When did I ever say he would be facilitating for Wade? I said Wade would be allowed to play his natural game as an on-ball playmaker more often because Jordan was a less ball dominant player than Bron (in terms of holding on to the ball, not shot attempts). Wade's game would mesh together with Jordan more than Bron IMO and in terms of shot attempts, there isn't a huge difference between Wade in 2011 and Pippen in the mid 90's. :confusedshrug:

The reason Wade and Bosh have gotten worse has nothing to do with Lebron (that they're still winning is actually a credit to him and him being able to get the best out of a player who clearly can't lead and another who is unable (injured)). Ironically, how would Jordan, who was far less of a team man than Lebron get them to play better? It's just another point of cheap criticism designed to do no more than score points.You keep talking about Jordan possibly being a "hinderence (lol)" to his teammates because of their numbers going up from 93 to 94, alright, so compare Wade and Bosh's numbers dropping from 2010 to 2011. How is that any different?

[LeBird]

I'm talking about prime MJ from '88-'96. When did I ever say he would be facilitating for Wade? I said Wade would be allowed to play his natural game as an on-ball playmaker more often because Jordan was a less ball dominant player than Bron (in terms of holding on to the ball, not shot attempts). Wade's game would mesh together with Jordan more than Bron IMO and in terms of shot attempts, there isn't a huge difference between Wade in 2011 and Pippen in the mid 90's. :confusedshrug:

Yes, but you've just acknowledged you're taking a player's best to fit into a hypothetical to get the desired result: to show that Jordan's better. And Jordan not as ball dominant as Lebron? Not really. He was the epitome of a ball-hog. And he wasn't much of a facilitator unless it involved a bailout pass whereas Lebron is a true PG at times.

There is a huge difference between Wade and Pippen insofar as Pippen was clearly a great facilitator and defender (individual and team) whereas if Wade isn't scoring akin to a first option, the rest of his game suffers. Jordan hogging the ball and also not getting him good looks (especially at this stage of Wade's career) is good how? Seeing Jordan jack up shots is good for him how?


You keep talking about Jordan possibly being a "hinderence (lol)" to his teammates because of their numbers going up from 93 to 94, alright, so compare Wade and Bosh's numbers dropping from 2010 to 2011. How is that any different?

Because we're actually watching the game and the contexts are different. Bosh may be a 20/10 player on a smaller franchise where he is the lead, but where there are not 1 but 2 other alphas he's anything but. Wade's slow demise is mainly because of his age/health; not because of the way his new teammates are keeping him from playing his best.

Whereas Jordan's teammates got better looks because they weren't getting bail-out passes and actual/equal roles in terms of ball-handling (scoring and facilitating). The telltale sign of a hindrance is the fact that their shooting numbers went up when the reality is that someone who gets such attention as Jordan - arguably the GOAT scorer - should be getting them far easier looks.

See, we can use our brains or use cheap criticisms or hollow points; but that's no good for anything but scoring points people who are already biased believe in.

[DFish24]

Why MJ? Even Pippen would win in place of Bran.

[Hey Yo]

I'm talking about prime MJ from '88-'96. When did I ever say he would be facilitating for Wade? I said Wade would be allowed to play his natural game as an on-ball playmaker more often because Jordan was a less ball dominant player than Bron (in terms of holding on to the ball, not shot attempts). Wade's game would mesh together with Jordan more than Bron IMO and in terms of shot attempts, there isn't a huge difference between Wade in 2011 and Pippen in the mid 90's. :confusedshrug:
You keep talking about Jordan possibly being a "hinderence (lol)" to his teammates because of their numbers going up from 93 to 94, alright, so compare Wade and Bosh's numbers dropping from 2010 to 2011. How is that any different?
Wade and Bosh's FGA went down the first year with LeBron, while w/o looking, MJ's former teammates FGA prob. went up.

[LeBird]

I don't have to acknowledge the first point because I don't even agree with it and even if the 2011 Mavs are better then any team Jordan faced in the Finals, that in no way excuses Lebron's performance in the 2011 Finals. Am I supposed to set aside Lebron's performance because maybe Jordan would've had the same performance? Of course not, because there's absolutely no reason to think Jordan, and plenty of other players for that matter, would've had such a god-awful performance.

Yeh, that's not the point. If you read, I've already said Lebron's performance in that finals could be replaced by many players (heck, a lot) and it could have ended up with a better result so bringing up the hypothetical of Jordan (who is far better than a lot of those other players that also could) is nothing but to score cheap points.

But if we want to be selective, we can be selective about a lot of things...like Jordan not being half the player Lebron has been in many years where Jordan never got to a finals to choke in the first place.


To your second point, I never said it wasn't notable. Its a great achievement. But its not like he would've done that in the 80s/90s. I do think Jordan with the 87-89 Bulls, all pretty weak teams, could've done what Lebron and the Cavs did in 2007. I don't think and most people don't think that Jordan faced weak competition in 90s, maybe a lot of people think it was weaker then the 80s but not weak in general. And even if we should count his rings less or something, I don't think and I think most people don't think he's better then everyone else just cause of rings.

I don't think it happens because in no team ever has a player had such a notable effect in getting a team to a final, in any era (even a weak one), without being the kind of player who was able to raise the game of his teammates and also dominate individually. Until his first ring, Jordan wasn't that player and thus the point that Jordan had performances when the Bulls were crap which illustrate he could have done what Lebron did doesn't fly. Because a lot of other great players (Lebron and Bird were mentioned in here too) took over really crap teams and had far bigger impacts in even their rookie seasons than Jordan had for several years as a Bull. For me, he's just not that type of player.

He was an individualist who was deadly in the right team but I don't think he translates into a lot of teams without similar pieces and those pieces having a similar mentality as those Bulls. I've said it before here; without Phil Jackson and those Bulls teams, Jordan could have very easily been an Elgin Baylor: great stats, no rings.


Well considering your initial comment was about the LAST 40 years and not comparing just the 80s and 90s, maybe you shouldn't have used a video from the mid 90s.


Yes, but let's use our common sense.

The decades in question: 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s.

Which one of those is a standout for a dominant team in weak competition. There you have your answer and the reasons were just espoused in that video. The expansion hurt the league a lot and it only got better during the 00s and beyond (not for all of it mind you, but there was no 6-8 year chunk of crap as there was in the 90s).


Being a standout team doesn't mean you're facing weak competition, it just means you're a cut above the rest. I guess my 0-10 scale analogy went right over your head. Put the Dream Team in the 90s and they'll win every championship and the only standout , but now this would make the 80s "weaker" according to you.


The #2 team in that Bulls era were the Jazz...and people argue that they were better in the 80s...when they got nowhere near the same acclaim.

Your example only makes sense if you ignore all the nuance in the points. the Lakers won 5 rings in the 80s...just one less than the Bulls; does that mean it was a weak era? No. Look at the other teams that won; look at the players in those teams and look at their production.

Now do the same for the 90s; it's just so clear that when people argue it they're honestly deluding themselves into believing what they want to believe, the narrative sold to them, that Jordan's achievements set him apart. When they didn't; they just made him eligible for the discussion.



Jordan was getting called GOAT even before he won a title. He was pretty much universally thought of as better then Magic and Bird after his first retirement. And those 2 pretty much acknowledge that. You want to post those videos? Him not winning 6 in the 80s doesn't mean much anyway, cause everyone else is probably winning less as well.

He was getting it the same any new/big/different hype gets it. No one would legitimately have called Jordan the GOAT without those titles.

People are so thick, they think Bird only winning 3 in the 80s makes it inferior to Duncan's 4, for example, in the 00s because well 4>3.

You also have to factor in the time then and what it looks like looking back: they were pushing the NBA and specifically Jordan hard. Everbody knows it. The only reason it can legitimately stand is because people talk about 6 in 6. They don't know that 6 could very easily have been 1 or just 2 10 years earlier. And no one would, in hindsight, call Jordan the GOAT. Because statstically he has equals, MVP wise he has equals if nor surpassing him, and even on the title count no one would need to point to Russell because in his own era there'd be several other players with more than him.

[Relinquish]

MJ would have had a worse finals performance than Lebron. :applause:

jk

[Young X]

Yes, but you've just acknowledged you're taking a player's best to fit into a hypothetical to get the desired result: to show that Jordan's better. And Jordan not as ball dominant as Lebron? Not really. He was the epitome of a ball-hog. And he wasn't much of a facilitator unless it involved a bailout pass whereas Lebron is a true PG at times.You're getting shot attempts confused with holding on to the ball. Yes Jordan shot the ball alot, but how many of those were catch and shoot or him attacking 2-3 seconds after he got the ball? Anyone who knows Jordan's game knows he didn't hold on to the ball for the majority of possessions as much as Bron and Wade did in 2011. Wade sacrificed his playmaking and ball handling game in order to fit with Lebron better which he wouldn't have to do with Jordan.


Whereas Jordan's teammates got better looks because they weren't getting bail-out passes and actual/equal roles in terms of ball-handling (scoring and facilitating). The telltale sign of a hindrance is the fact that their shooting numbers went up when the reality is that someone who gets such attention as Jordan - arguably the GOAT scorer - should be getting them far easier looks.Nothing you're saying is backed up by facts.

Pippen's efficiency from '92 to '94 went down, not up. FACT.

'92 Pippen: 21 pts - 7 dimes on 51%/114 ORTG
'94 Pippen: 22 pts - 6 dimes on 49%/109 ORTG


The 90's Bulls led by MJ were some of the GOAT offensive teams. FACT.

'91 Bulls: 115 ORTG (best in the league)
'92 Bulls: 116 ORTG (best in the league)
'96 Bulls: 115 ORTG (best in the league)
'97 Bulls: 114 ORTG (best in the league)

All teams are in the top 10 offensive seasons of all time, how can someone be hindering his team when he's leading them to some of the best offensive season of all time?

How did Jordan not get his teammates good looks? You didn't see all the dump off passes he gave to Horace Grant? The lobs he gave to Pippen? All the open shots he got Paxson/Kerr/Hodges?

[guy]

Yeh, that's not the point. If you read, I've already said Lebron's performance in that finals could be replaced by many players (heck, a lot) and it could have ended up with a better result so bringing up the hypothetical of Jordan (who is far better than a lot of those other players that also could) is nothing but to score cheap points.

But if we want to be selective, we can be selective about a lot of things...like Jordan not being half the player Lebron has been in many years where Jordan never got to a finals to choke in the first place.

Ummm you brought up that I need to bring up the supposedly tougher teams of today if I'm going to shit on Lebron's performance. "If you're gonna shit on Lebron for not winning in 2011 for example; then you have to acknowledge that this era is currently putting up teams tougher than what Jordan faced in his finals."

My point is I can shit on Lebron's performance all I want without bringing up anything else cause it doesn't really have to do with anything else.

And really, half the player? :oldlol: You're a joke.



I don't think it happens because in no team ever has a player had such a notable effect in getting a team to a final, in any era (even a weak one), without being the kind of player who was able to raise the game of his teammates and also dominate individually. Until his first ring, Jordan wasn't that player and thus the point that Jordan had performances when the Bulls were crap which illustrate he could have done what Lebron did doesn't fly. Because a lot of other great players (Lebron and Bird were mentioned in here too) took over really crap teams and had far bigger impacts in even their rookie seasons than Jordan had for several years as a Bull. For me, he's just not that type of player.


Or maybe it just has more to do with the fact that the EC was complete crap that year, Cavs played terrible competition in the first 2 rounds, then the combination of the Pistons becoming their normal lackadaisical and complacent selves in the playoffs, which is exactly what happened to them from 06-08, and Lebron having one historical amazing game (most people tend to forget that he wasn't even that good in this series outside of that game), resulted in the Cavs getting to the Finals. Its not this over complicated drivel that you just wrote.




Yes, but let's use our common sense.

The decades in question: 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s.

Which one of those is a standout for a dominant team in weak competition. There you have your answer and the reasons were just espoused in that video. The expansion hurt the league a lot and it only got better during the 00s and beyond (not for all of it mind you, but there was no 6-8 year chunk of crap as there was in the 90s).

Well the 90s, because there actually was a standout team, which makes it an easy target for you. If the Bulls actually lost 1 or 2 titles, would that have made the era look better? If the Knicks actually beat the Bulls in 93 like they were favored to do and win a title and then John Starks hits a three-pointer in game 6 of the 1994 Finals and they end up winning back-to-back titles, does that make the era better?



The #2 team in that Bulls era were the Jazz...and people argue that they were better in the 80s...when they got nowhere near the same acclaim.

Your example only makes sense if you ignore all the nuance in the points. the Lakers won 5 rings in the 80s...just one less than the Bulls; does that mean it was a weak era? No. Look at the other teams that won; look at the players in those teams and look at their production.

Now do the same for the 90s; it's just so clear that when people argue it they're honestly deluding themselves into believing what they want to believe, the narrative sold to them, that Jordan's achievements set him apart. When they didn't; they just made him eligible for the discussion.


Well I wasn't comparing just the 80s to the 90s, you were. But as you say, if we want to be selective, we can be selective about a lot of things. You can spin this argument around anyway you want. Who were the great teams of the 80s again? Lakers, Celtics, Sixers, Pistons? Lakers didn't face shit in the Western Conference. And the Sixers and Pistons were never great at the same time. So really, you had the Lakers that could basically snooze their way to the Finals every year, and whoever coming out of the East only had to face one legit threat (or maybe you can throw the Bucks in there).

And in the 90s, the Jazz weren't the #2 team. There wasn't really a #2 team. You can argue that there wasn't any sustained dominance from any other team then the Bulls because the rest of the competition was so close to each other that it was dogfight every year. One way or the other way doesn't mean it was a better or worse era.

And by the way, what about defense? Its pretty much universally accepted that the 90s was much better defensively then the 80s. And maybe its not a coincidence that once the Bad Boy Pistons incorporated more physicality, which is what set the tone for the 90s, that that was kind of the end of the Lakers and Celtics runs.

And production is relative to era. Somebody on every team has to get points, rebounds, assists, etc. I'm not sure what's your point there.

I'm not arguing between the two. Cause whatever it is, I don't think its a significant enough difference to downplay players' accomplishments (that goes for this era as well). Even if the 80s are better for the reasons you and many other idiotic detractors have stated, according to that logic there's only about 5 seasons in the history of the NBA that should actually count for anything :oldlol: .




He was getting it the same any new/big/different hype gets it. No one would legitimately have called Jordan the GOAT without those titles.

People are so thick, they think Bird only winning 3 in the 80s makes it inferior to Duncan's 4, for example, in the 00s because well 4>3.

You also have to factor in the time then and what it looks like looking back: they were pushing the NBA and specifically Jordan hard. Everbody knows it. The only reason it can legitimately stand is because people talk about 6 in 6. They don't know that 6 could very easily have been 1 or just 2 10 years earlier. And no one would, in hindsight, call Jordan the GOAT. Because statstically he has equals, MVP wise he has equals if nor surpassing him, and even on the title count no one would need to point to Russell because in his own era there'd be several other players with more than him.

Most people say Bird>Duncan. What are you talking about?

Where the **** were you in the 90s? No one was not calling him the GOAT at the time. Even more so then today probably. His biggest rivals from the 80s like Bird, Magic, and Isiah were even doing that and this was before he even tied Magic. Why would they if they didn't believe it? Players as ultracompetitive as them? Its one thing to call someone one of the greatest players ever, its another thing to actually call them THE greatest. It wouldn't have been even necessary. You think between interviews, Bob Costas was telling these guys to say those things? While at the same time letting them speak their mind about how the product is inferior to what it was before? You're delusional if you think it was all just media-driven nonsense. He got that praise from everywhere i.e. players, coaches, HOFers, journalists.

It has very little to do with the number of titles. In fact, no one was really bringing up the # of titles argument until the media tried to play up the Kobe/Jordan comparisons in the 00s.

[SamuraiSWISH]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CKKhY4BGhNM

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=huJwvtKbnqQ


So lets review this: Prime Marion got lid up by 40 year old Jordan, but prime Jordan will get shut down by past prime Marion in 2011.... in the finals?
:applause:

[TheMan]

LOL you shook, run away now since you have no response
Nigguh, other posters are also calling you out for your stupidity, :oldlol:

But I'm shook :oldlol:

[Dengness9]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jh9PxKzKhUQ/UKym2SaMQhI/AAAAAAAAZS0/dnx-rGnauCY/s640/pg2_g_bird_jordan1x_576.jpg

Cant we all just get along?

[TheMan]

This LeBird character is just so embarrassingly bad, stats refute everything he says, just talking out of his ass:oldlol:

Leave this thread, you just got sonned hard :oldlol: