Alcindor and Robertson VS Kareem and Magic

[jongib369]

2 on 2, who wins?

Alcindor is 23 years old and oscar 32... Kareem 32 and Magic 23


http://turnernbahangtime.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/kareem-oscar.jpg

http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/143295.gif

Also if you were to build a team around one pair being the ages I said, who do you go with?

[La Frescobaldi]

Magic to me. Jabbar wasn't as fast as he was like 10 years older naturally. His offense had shrunk.
I'm still takin Johnson's team.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

The one with Magic for both questions. KAJ has another solid, what, 6-7 years?

[ProfessorMurder]

Lew and O for both questions.

[Smook A.]

I'll go with Kareem and Magic. They were on another level

[Psileas]

2 on 2, who wins?

Alcindor is 23 years old and oscar 32... Kareem 32 and Magic 23

This is a bit unfair, because Kareem and Magic never were teammates as a 32 and 23 year old at the same time. Kareem was 32 in 1979-80, Magic was 23 in 1983.

Anyway, it can go both ways. 70's Kareem is more athletic and obviously with more stamina in defense and rebounding, 80's Kareem more refined and playing smarter. Oscar had a better scoring repertoire than Magic. Both could average more ppg than their numbers indicate. Magic is more athletic at those ages. Passing is close and it doesn't matter that much in 2 on 2 situations.

In the end, it would be hard for Magic and Oscar to drive, and both would probably prefer to feed "Kareems". If any of them is doubled, both Magic and Oscar can hit the mid range, with Oscar having some advantage due to having quicker release. But I still think it depends on which version of Kareem gets the upper hand.

[senelcoolidge]

I'd take the Young Kareem and Big O. Magic has the height advantage over Oscar and youth..but that's all. Oscar was still a capable scorer and better mid range shooter. Passing they are about equal, Magic is just more flashy. Older Kareem is smarter, but the athletic and more aggressive Kareem would be harder to contain.

[jongib369]

This is a bit unfair, because Kareem and Magic never were teammates as a 32 and 23 year old at the same time. Kareem was 32 in 1979-80, Magic was 23 in 1983.

Anyway, it can go both ways. 70's Kareem is more athletic and obviously with more stamina in defense and rebounding, 80's Kareem more refined and playing smarter. Oscar had a better scoring repertoire than Magic. Both could average more ppg than their numbers indicate. Magic is more athletic at those ages. Passing is close and it doesn't matter that much in 2 on 2 situations.

In the end, it would be hard for Magic and Oscar to drive, and both would probably prefer to feed "Kareems". If any of them is doubled, both Magic and Oscar can hit the mid range, with Oscar having some advantage due to having quicker release. But I still think it depends on which version of Kareem gets the upper hand.


How do you see it as unfair when at either age they were both teammates? But anyways I agree with what you said, it comes down to which version of Kareem plays better.... It'd be interesting to see how Oscar would attack Magic offensively with how big he is


Who would you rather build around?

[jongib369]

Magic to me. Jabbar wasn't as fast as he was like 10 years older naturally. His offense had shrunk.
I'm still takin Johnson's team.
How do you think Oscar would of handled Magic? Obviously it would of been a battle, but if I'm not mistaken you've probably seen more Oscar than anyone here

[jongib369]

I'd take the Young Kareem and Big O. Magic has the height advantage over Oscar and youth..but that's all. Oscar was still a capable scorer and better mid range shooter. Passing they are about equal, Magic is just more flashy. Older Kareem is smarter, but the athletic and more aggressive Kareem would be harder to contain.
I agree with you, Oscar and Alcindor would probably win.....But the size advantage Magic has makes it a bit tricky.....

Other than team accomplishments I don't understand why they're so far apart in peoples all time rankings

[Psileas]

How do you see it as unfair when at either age they were both teammates? But anyways I agree with what you said, it comes down to which version of Kareem plays better.... It'd be interesting to see how Oscar would attack Magic offensively with how big he is


Who would you rather build around?

"Unfair" in the sense that the first duo, "32 y.o Oscar + 23 y.o Kareem", was real (1971), while the second one, chronologically, is a bit off (that's 1979 or 1980 Kareem+1983 Magic), not that I didn't see the point in switching their ages.

Obviously I'd build around the 80's duo, old Oscar doesn't have as dominant and long a future as old Kareem.

Edit: Except if you mean build for a single season. Maybe still the 80's squad, if Oscar remains an ass towards his teammates, although, to be honest, I've never heard many such complaints from his Bucks' teammates.
The 70's duo though was real and we know what they did together: 66-16 + 12+2.
But this is in case we pretend this is a different team we're building here.

[miles berg]

Big O & Alcindor, no doubt.

[LAZERUSS]

"Unfair" in the sense that the first duo, "32 y.o Oscar + 23 y.o Kareem", was real (1971), while the second one, chronologically, is a bit off (that's 1979 or 1980 Kareem+1983 Magic), not that I didn't see the point in switching their ages.

Obviously I'd build around the 80's duo, old Oscar doesn't have as dominant and long a future as old Kareem.

Edit: Except if you mean build for a single season. Maybe still the 80's squad, if Oscar remains an ass towards his teammates, although, to be honest, I've never heard many such complaints from his Bucks' teammates.
The 70's duo though was real and we know what they did together: 66-16 + 12+2.
But this is in case we pretend this is a different team we're building here.

I'm a huge fan of Magic, but the reality was, that '71 Buck team has a case as the greatest ever, or at the very least, a top-5 team of all-time. Their ppg differentials, both in the regular season and playoffs; and their FG% differentials, both regular season, and post-season, were just staggering. And had they not coasted in their last six games of the regular season (when they were 65-11), and they likely would have won 70 games and set a ppg differential that would have blown away the '72 Lakers and '96 Bulls.

Not only that, but I still say that that was a PEAK Kareem, who not only was unstoppable offensively, but who also anchored the best defense in the league.

THAT Kareem ranks right at the top, with anyone else who has ever played the game. Even a past-his-prime Oscar would be enough to win that "H2H" battle.

[jongib369]

I'm a huge fan of Magic, but the reality was, that '71 Buck team has a case as the greatest ever, or at the very least, a top-5 team of all-time. Their ppg differentials, both in the regular season and playoffs; and their FG% differentials, both regular season, and post-season, were just staggering. And had they not coasted in their last six games of the regular season (when they were 65-11), and they likely would have won 70 games and set a ppg differential that would have blown away the '72 Lakers and '96 Bulls.

Not only that, but I still say that that was a PEAK Kareem, who not only was unstoppable offensively, but who also anchored the best defense in the league.

THAT Kareem ranks right at the top, with anyone else who has ever played the game. Even a past-his-prime Oscar would be enough to win that "H2H" battle.

Like I said to La Frescobaldi, how do you think Oscar would of handled magic on the offensive end? Obviously with the size difference defensively Magic would be a problem for him....But to me the more interesting question is how he'd do with his style of play.....He loved backing guys down to his spots, but would have trouble like anyone would with that style against someone a bit bigger....Oscar being around 6'4, Magic 6'7.....
Maybe it wouldn't be as big of a problem as I'm thinking, considering Oscar probably had trouble but more than held his own against Gus

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/thetoydepartment/gus-johnson-photo.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

Like I said to La Frescobaldi, how do you think Oscar would of handled magic on the offensive end? Obviously with the size difference defensively Magic would be a problem for him....But to me the more interesting question is how he'd do with his style of play.....He loved backing guys down to his spots, but would have trouble like anyone would with that style against someone a bit bigger....Oscar being around 6'4, Magic 6'7.....
Maybe it wouldn't be as big of a problem as I'm thinking, considering Oscar probably had trouble but more than held his own against Gus

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/thetoydepartment/gus-johnson-photo.jpg

Oscar would get his, and so would Magic. At least Oscar would have had a defensive beast behind him, where as Magic's Kareem would not have been nearly as much help.

[La Frescobaldi]

I'm a huge fan of Magic, but the reality was, that '71 Buck team has a case as the greatest ever, or at the very least, a top-5 team of all-time. Their ppg differentials, both in the regular season and playoffs; and their FG% differentials, both regular season, and post-season, were just staggering. And had they not coasted in their last six games of the regular season (when they were 65-11), and they likely would have won 70 games and set a ppg differential that would have blown away the '72 Lakers and '96 Bulls.

Not only that, but I still say that that was a PEAK Kareem, who not only was unstoppable offensively, but who also anchored the best defense in the league.

THAT Kareem ranks right at the top, with anyone else who has ever played the game. Even a past-his-prime Oscar would be enough to win that "H2H" battle.

The OP scenario is 2 on 2 tho, Laz, not that Bucks team vs. a later Lakers squad.

[LAZERUSS]

The OP scenario is 2 on 2 tho, Laz, not that Bucks team vs. a later Lakers squad.

Well, it would be a case of a more prime Magic, with a very good Kareem, but a Kareem who was not a great rebounder or defender...going against a past-his-prime Oscar, and a Kareem who was an unstoppable offensive force, a great rebounder, and a defensive anchor.

[La Frescobaldi]

How do you think Oscar would of handled Magic? Obviously it would of been a battle, but if I'm not mistaken you've probably seen more Oscar than anyone here

Oscar was the whole package, no question about that. He was a much better outside shooter than Magic, and had an ability to drive that was pretty much unmatched - in his 20s. But not at 32 yo.

Magic is falsely notorious for his defense, which was actually pretty solid most of the time. He couldn't really stop the great guards it is true - who ever can? - but he could force them into Kareem (or Rambis or Cooper), who were very high levels indeed.
Oscar's D is also underrated, but Magic's was better.

Johnson drive and dish in this 2 on 2 scenario (or any scenario, imo) is beating Oscar's d&d, and Johnson's defense is going to get more stops. Magic out-rebounds a 32 y.o. Oscar as well.

Of course it's woolly to think a younger Kareem can ever beat the older Kareem, since the older Kareem knows exactly what the younger Kareem will do before he does it !! :lol

But if you had a dual universe thing going........

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uQjdK0H7ZHY/TuuDgwXFqII/AAAAAAAAMUU/JtT-mBX_RCk/s1600/spock-424x318.jpg

the older Kareem has too much experience, was much stronger physically, understood defense to a far greater degree, had fine-tuned that skyhook to a cruise missile effectiveness, and could still run like a deer.

To me it won't be close really.

[dreamwarrior]

magic and oscar cancel each other out. both can score on the other. but 23yo alcindor was obviously leaps beyond 32yo kareem who wasn't even 2nd option at that point in his career

[Kblaze8855]

magic and oscar cancel each other out. both can score on the other. but 23yo alcindor was obviously leaps beyond 32yo kareem who wasn't even 2nd option at that point in his career

Kareem was the MVP at 32.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMIC4zKK_nE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_kn6kLRs5o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV7-mkVF2rA

Thats 32 year old Kareem.

[jongib369]

Kareem was the MVP at 32.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMIC4zKK_nE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_kn6kLRs5o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV7-mkVF2rA

Thats 32 year old Kareem.
Thanks for the videos, haven't seen 2 of them before. Watching that man go to work is a sight to see. It's a shame he missed Russell by a year, or Shaq by a few. Wouldn't be the best matchup considering the ages they would of been....But, I've always been fascinated to see players link different eras that way...people seem to think a lot more time had passed since they played than there was....I don't feel that old, only 23....Yet you subtract that from the year I was born Kareem wasn't in the NBA yet

http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/682071555_Bexba-M.jpg

http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4v0pxlOVs1qzwq3do1_500.jpg

http://oi62.tinypic.com/2lmlbpd.jpg
http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Shaquille+O+Neal+Dwight+Howard+2009+NBA+Star+Alezg UXHSdOl.jpg


Anyways, have an opinion about the OP?

[bizil]

Oscar was the whole package, no question about that. He was a much better outside shooter than Magic, and had an ability to drive that was pretty much unmatched - in his 20s. But not at 32 yo.

Magic is falsely notorious for his defense, which was actually pretty solid most of the time. He couldn't really stop the great guards it is true - who ever can? - but he could force them into Kareem (or Rambis or Cooper), who were very high levels indeed.
Oscar's D is also underrated, but Magic's was better.

Johnson drive and dish in this 2 on 2 scenario (or any scenario, imo) is beating Oscar's d&d, and Johnson's defense is going to get more stops. Magic out-rebounds a 32 y.o. Oscar as well.

Of course it's woolly to think a younger Kareem can ever beat the older Kareem, since the older Kareem knows exactly what the younger Kareem will do before he does it !! :lol

But if you had a dual universe thing going........

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uQjdK0H7ZHY/TuuDgwXFqII/AAAAAAAAMUU/JtT-mBX_RCk/s1600/spock-424x318.jpg

the older Kareem has too much experience, was much stronger physically, understood defense to a far greater degree, had fine-tuned that skyhook to a cruise missile effectiveness, and could still run like a deer.

To me it won't be close really.

I agree with u in terms of Magic's D. He was far from great, no question about it. But he was very good maybe even great at team D. He was often times among the league leader in steals. Which indicates great hands and anticipation. I think u could say the same about Bird for that matter. It's just that in terms of one on one defense on an island type stuff, they weren't nearly as effective.

But Magic's size and the Lakers lineup allowed him to guard SF's and PF's. He didn't have to be stuck defending PG or SG. Riley could choose the matchup most suitable. I think it's better to be an average man on man defender Magic's size than an average defender at 6'1.

[mr4speed]

I agree with u in terms of Magic's D. He was far from great, no question about it. But he was very good maybe even great at team D. He was often times among the league leader in steals. Which indicates great hands and anticipation. I think u could say the same about Bird for that matter. It's just that in terms of one on one defense on an island type stuff, they weren't nearly as effective.

But Magic's size and the Lakers lineup allowed him to guard SF's and PF's. He didn't have to be stuck defending PG or SG. Riley could choose the matchup most suitable. I think it's better to be an average man on man defender Magic's size than an average defender at 6'1.
Just my opinion and of course impossible to prove but I would have to choose "Lew & big "O". Why, I feel there is no way an older Kareem (and to be fair any player) could outplay himself 9 years later, especially in a 2 on 2 scenario where there is zero "coast" time as opposed to a 5 on 5 situation. Also I would give the edge to Oscar, Why? Magic at this point in his career was nowhere near as good as he would become from 87 and on. Look at the 83 finals when Magic was 23 years old. Moses just dominated Kareem but where was Magic? He had a horrible series and nobody ever talks about it. He shot a pathetic 40.3 % from the floor ( a drop off of 14.5 % from the regular season) and he committed 24 turnovers in only 4 games. I think a very wise O would more than hold his own against a young Magic.

[SHAQisGOAT]

2-on-2? Probably Lew and Oscar. And for one season (1971) I'd might take them, even with really strong competition against some seasons (1980 or 1987).

Building a team? Definitely Kareem and Magic, going by what actually happened.