So, how come nobody else has the 2011 Mavs formula?

[ChrisKreager]

I mean, the 2011 Mavericks are STILL the only team to send this Heat team as constructed to postseason defeat.

I keep thinking how the Pacers/Celtics/Spurs came up short against them- and I could argue those teams in those years MIGHT have beaten those Mavs in a hypothetical series.

So, how the hell did they do it and nobody else can?

Is it the lack of a Dirk-like closer? Is it a savvy PG? Timely perimeter shooting?

[aboss4real24]

Becuz the mavs didnt beat the heat

Lebron did

[Derivative]

Becuz the mavs didnt beat the heat

Lebron did


This.

Mavs didn't win it. Lebron lost it.

[Im so nba'd out]

2 words ZONE DEFENSE.And 2 everyone who says the mavs didnt earn it yeah you can f*k yourself

[DaSeba5]

LeBron choked. Other wise they would have won.

The Spurs used the same strategy. They clogged the paint and forced LeBron and Wade to shoot jumpers. LeBron couldn't shoot them consistently and Wade was inured and couldn't get a consistent lift on his jump shots. The Mavs and Spurs also passed the ball very well and killed Miami's defense with the 3 point ball. But LeBron made his jump shots in the last 2 games and the Heat did enough to beat the Spurs in the end.

Plus Miami wasn't a team then. LeBron and Wade did everything. Everyone else just watched. The ball movement they have today didn't exist. Their bench wasn't nearly as good as it is today.

[navy]

Becuz the mavs didnt beat the heat

Lebron did
/thread

[Marlo_Stanfield]

LeBron kinda beat himself, got much better with his jumper from there on AND the Mavs were a GREAT defensive team with Marion, DPOY Chandler ANd Kidd starting.
all ELITE defenders:confusedshrug:

[navy]

2 words ZONE DEFENSE.And 2 everyone who says the mavs didnt earn it yeah you can f*k yourself
Heat didnt have 3 point shooters, but's be honest Lebron choked.
17ppg? Embarrassing . :oldlol:

[ihoopallday]

Becuz the mavs didnt beat the heat

Lebron did

That's why it will always be hard for me to put Bron in the same category as MJ. How we choked that badly is still a mystery to me. But, also gotta give him a lot of credit for coming back from that.

[Suguru101]

LeBron choked. Other wise they would have won.

The Spurs used the same strategy. They clogged the paint and forced LeBron and Wade to shoot jumpers. LeBron couldn't shoot them consistently and Wade was inured and couldn't get a consistent lift on his jump shots. The Mavs and Spurs also passed the ball very well and killed Miami's defense with the 3 point ball. But LeBron made his jump shots in the last 2 games and the Heat did enough to beat the Spurs in the end.

Plus Miami wasn't a team then. LeBron and Wade did everything. Everyone else just watched. The ball movement they have today didn't exist. Their bench wasn't nearly as good as it is today.

That phrase is overdone as fvck. How did the Heat win the other two games then? LeBron exclusively shot lay-ups?

And LeBron didn't light it from mid-range in game 6, he just drove a lot and shots near the basket. The only game that LeBron actually made lots of 3's and jumpers was game 7, he beat the Spurs without many jumpers in the other games.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Pacies don't even come close to that mavs team

[DaSeba5]

That phrase is overdone as fvck. How did the Heat win the other two games then? LeBron exclusively shot lay-ups?

And LeBron didn't light it from mid-range in game 6, he just drove a lot and shots near the basket. The only game that LeBron actually made lots of 3's and jumpers was game 7, he beat the Spurs without many jumpers in the other games.

I should have said game 7. Game 6 he drove a lot, especially in the 4th.

He still attacked the basket of course, but he didn't put up the same great numbers and he struggled at times. This strategy did work.

[Magic 32]

But LeBron made his jump shots in the last 2 games and the Heat did enough to beat the Spurs in the end.


You need to watch game 6 again.

[Ancient Legend]

2012 and 2013 Heat would have beaten the Mavs easily.

2011 Heat they still had leadership issues and their offense was more ISO a la OKC than it is now. Plus the fact that LeBron wet the bed.

[Im so nba'd out]

Heat didnt have 3 point shooters, but's be honest Lebron choked.
17ppg? Embarrassing . :oldlol:
they had a great zone concept and heat had chalmers house miller and bibby thats not bad :confusedshrug:

[pastis]

is hee really anyone thinking spurs wont win it all. :roll:

[navy]

they had a great zone concept and heat had chalmers house miller and bibby thats not bad :confusedshrug:
House didnt play much and Bibby was washed up at that time. One of the lowest PERs of all time. :lol
They had Chalmers who started 1 game and mike miller. That's basically two.


Ill give credit to the Mavs but the majority of the blame is going to Lebron James .


17 ppg:oldlol:

[russwest0]

Lebron choked his ass off. Period.

If he had played like a real third option and dominated the ball less they could have won. Instead he played like a choking superstar.

The Heat are simply too stacked to be beat fairly. Thats why you see their toughest competition in the East have their best scrubs try to play mind games and shit.

[Ancient Legend]

Thats why you see their toughest competition in the East have their best scrubs try to play mind games and shit.

This is actually true.

[Real14]

because tha NBA execs don't want their postergirl to cry and be unhappy.

[Im so nba'd out]

ok cool if mavs didnt earn 2011 ring heat didnt earn 2013 ring spurs choked.

[navy]

ok cool if mavs didnt earn 2011 ring heat didnt earn 2013 ring spurs choked.
We hear this all the time. Are you trying to point out a double standard? :confusedshrug:

[comerb]

I mean, the 2011 Mavericks are STILL the only team to send this Heat team as constructed to postseason defeat.

I keep thinking how the Pacers/Celtics/Spurs came up short against them- and I could argue those teams in those years MIGHT have beaten those Mavs in a hypothetical series.

So, how the hell did they do it and nobody else can?

Is it the lack of a Dirk-like closer? Is it a savvy PG? Timely perimeter shooting?

The Heat were a better team than the Mavs. The Mavs won that series for two reasons.

1) They were on fire nearly the entire playoffs from behind the arc
2) Lebron completely disappeared

And that's it. There was nothing special about that team. They got hot at the right time and lucked into Lebron playing like a chump. Last years Spurs was a better team than the Mavs ever were.

[AintNoSunshine]

You do know that had Lebron not bury his head sooo far down his azz the Heat would have won comfortably right?

[Im so nba'd out]

We hear this all the time. Are you trying to point out a double standard? :confusedshrug:
yes and now lebron is only a 1 time champion since dirk ring doesn't count.

[russwest0]

People constantly overlook the amount of talent the Heat have.

Put Ray Allen on the Pacers and they benefit a ton from that. This guy never goes cold in the playoffs, has a knack for hitting clutch shots, is consistent as hell, will be in the HOF someday, and on the Heat he's just another player thrown into the mix.

It's what happens when a bunch of talented guys in one conference take paycuts to win. Ray Allen took well under TWICE his market value just to ringchase. And it's probably going to pay off because that Heat team is just loaded with too much talent to be beaten. Especially when you give them a cakewalk to the Finals.

[navy]

yes and now lebron is only a 1 time champion since dirk ring doesn't count.
0 Championships. 2012 was an asterisk lockout remember? :oldlol:

[Im so nba'd out]

Stop saying lebron choked dirk earnt that f'ing ring.He wasn't given sht.He beat kobe durant and lebron in the same year.Lebron live rent free in too many minds even when he loses he still gets all the credit for the other team winning.

[navy]

Stop saying lebron choked dirk earnt that f'ing ring.He wasn't given sht.He beat kobe durant and lebron in the same year.Lebron live rent free in too many minds even when he loses he still gets all the credit for the other team winning.
Bran James. :bowdown:

[russwest0]

Stop saying lebron choked dirk earnt that f'ing ring.He wasn't given sht.He beat kobe durant and lebron in the same year.Lebron live rent free in too many minds even when he loses he still gets all the credit for the other team winning.

Wilt got the same treatment.

Choking is nothing new, look it up.

[Warfan]

Mavs played great on offense (good ball movement, shooting), and played good defense aswell. Lebron didn't play well, and the heat didn't execute down the stretch while the mavs did.

[ihoopallday]

Mavs played great on offense (good ball movement, shooting), and played good defense aswell. Lebron didn't play well, and the heat didn't execute down the stretch while the mavs did.

After that blown lead in game 2, I could just tell Dallas wanted it more. Miami was cocky and it was pathetic to watch. And don't even get me started on LeBron James' post game interview after Dallas won:facepalm You can be his biggest fan, but if what he said didn't strike a nerve, then kudos to you. However, that whole finals made Miami humble. Two championships later, it's hard to stay mad.

[SamuraiSWISH]

1) LeBron Quit like a BITCH

Thus, the Heat beat themselves. Cockiness got stomped out by a motivated Dallas team.

2) 2011 Mavericks were more talented than the Pacers the past few years, and were younger than the Celtics / Spurs teams the Heat recently battled with.

[Im so nba'd out]

After that blown lead in game 2, I could just tell Dallas wanted it more. Miami was cocky and it was pathetic to watch. And don't even get me started on LeBron James' post game interview after Dallas won:facepalm You can be his biggest fan, but if what he said didn't strike a nerve, then kudos to you. However, that whole finals made Miami humble. Two championships later, it's hard to stay mad.
im a fan of the game and what he said didn't strike a nerve with me.What he said was the truth.He is driven thats why people hate him.It exposes them for the fact that they are complacent,lazy, and they take jobs that they do not want cause they are not driven enough to find something better.

[SexSymbol]

Nobody could keep up with the Mavericks that year, they were on a mission and their aim was perfect throughout the play-offs
The swept the ****ing Lakers lol and dominated OKC if I remember correctly, Heat didn't stand a chance. And LeBron choking really helped

[casual_fan]

Nobody else has clutch -god Dirk:rockon:

[PickernRoller]

Go 4 years back. Lakers would steam roll vs. 2011 Heat, 2013 Heat and 2014 Heat. 2012 Heat is a toss up.

Weak era is the only problem. You still have old timers from the 2000's schooling the new "all stars" left and right. It's laughable and disgusting at the same time. I am really sad for the league.

[creepingdeath]

People are still mad and blame it all on Lebron... :roll:

[Warfan]

Nobody could keep up with the Mavericks that year, they were on a mission and their aim was perfect throughout the play-offs
The swept the ****ing Lakers lol and dominated OKC if I remember correctly, Heat didn't stand a chance. And LeBron choking really helped

I think people tend to underrate them a bit. They were 55-18 with dirk in the lineup, and shot out of their minds in the playoffs. They beat kobe/pau, kd/wb and bron/wade. Impressive as hell.

[TrueRob]

Formula to beat Miami:
1. Elite offensive player who creates match-up problems, draw doubles, etc.
2. Size.
3. Excellent halfcourt offense.
4. Veteran team (good execution, low turnovers)

OKC: missing #3 and #4.
Spurs: missing #1 because Duncan is old.
Indiana: missing #1, #3, and #4

[casual_fan]

I think people tend to underrate them a bit. They were 55-18 with dirk in the lineup, and shot out of their minds in the playoffs. They beat kobe/pau, kd/wb and bron/wade. Impressive as hell.

This. People act as if they just lucked out, because Lebron choked but they had a tough matchup in every round and were underdogs in most of them.

[Magic 32]

The swept the ****ing Lakers lol

If not for Pau's boneheaded foul that series would have looked a little different (6 games).

But Kobe was falling apart and Shannon Brown was messing up Gasol (and his girlfriend).

[navy]

Formula to beat Miami:
1. Elite offensive player who creates match-up problems, draw doubles, etc.
2. Size.
3. Excellent halfcourt offense.
4. Veteran team (good execution, low turnovers)

OKC: missing #3 and #4.
Spurs: missing #1 because Duncan is old.
Indiana: missing #1, #3, and #4
You skipped defense.

But the formula to beat Miami is the formula to beat every team. :confusedshrug:

[TrueRob]

You skipped defense.

But the formula to beat Miami is the formula to beat every team. :confusedshrug:

Sure, but if a team has the 4 things I mentioned, it's almost a given that they will have good defense. Obviously Spurs have a shot, if Parker can play amazing or if Duncan can turn back the clock, but I don't think that will happen.

[SwishSquared]

People constantly overlook the amount of talent the Heat have.

Put Ray Allen on the Pacers and they benefit a ton from that. This guy never goes cold in the playoffs, has a knack for hitting clutch shots, is consistent as hell, will be in the HOF someday, and on the Heat he's just another player thrown into the mix.

It's what happens when a bunch of talented guys in one conference take paycuts to win. Ray Allen took well under TWICE his market value just to ringchase. And it's probably going to pay off because that Heat team is just loaded with too much talent to be beaten. Especially when you give them a cakewalk to the Finals.
Allen didn't take "well under" twice his market value- he took exactly half what Boston was offering and it was because he felt disrespected by the organization (tried to trade him a couple times, demoted him to 6th man, etc.). Clippers had arranged a meeting and cancelled on Allen because they wanted Crawford instead (felt secondary ball handler would be more beneficial for their roster at the time). So really he went to the squad that wanted him the most (no state income tax also) that had best shot at winning.

Regarding his hotness in playoffs, I'm assuming you mean his 3pt shooting. His second year in Boston he was average and his last season he was bad. Other than that, his stats are solid. Wasn't he really cold during that middle of that '08 playoff run, specifically vs. Cleveland? He also had a horrific year shooting the 3 ball this RS (for his standards) due to the increased workload due to Wade strategically missing games. Great player and he fits perfectly in his role in Miami.

However, let's not assume he'd automatically be this good as a Pacer. Who's drawing attention to get him wide open looks? Pacers' offense gets to point where they barely move the ball around. He thrives as a Heat player because the ball moves and others draw extra attention, generating an open look for him.

It also helps that the Heat owner is willing to go out and get talent instead of cost-cutting at the expense of fielding the best possible roster (I know Miller got amnestied but that dude looked like he could barely walk at times when he was on the Heat).

Regarding the Mavs' blueprint, no team has strung together the same performance because they lack the combination of lights-out 3 point shooting, perimeter D to slow down LBJ, a guy who can get a bucket against anybody, an interior presence to deter shots at rim and expose Heat's lack of size/strength inside offensively, constant ball movement, and a coach that beats Spo every game.

Spurs nearly had all of those ingredients, but it didn't last for the entire series. Parker got banged up, Green + Neal cooled down, Duncan missed some bunnies, Pop mismanaged substitutions down the stretch, and players missed key FTs.

Mavericks' hybrid zone confused LBJ and Spo couldn't make the adjustments to help LBJ (sure as heck couldn't motivate him to snap out of whatever funk/choking mental state he was in). I think the meltdown was mental not only because of pressure, but Wade thrust himself as the man that series (rightfully so, he was absolutely tearing it up) and I honestly don't think LBJ knew had to play off Wade against that Mavs squad. Against Chicago and Boston, I felt like LBJ sort of controlled the action. I think LBJ didn't know what to do exactly once Wade was taking over. Not saying he sabotaged the series, but he didn't play as well off the ball as he does now imo.

[All Net]

Because the heat aren't those same Heat from 2011

[Rose'sACL]

i am pretty sure that those mavs would lose to the 2012 heat. 2011 heat and 2012 heat were a lot different from each other.
Mike bibby and joel anthony were starting for miami back then.

[backb0ard]

The 2011 mavs had Carlisle, Terry Stotts and Dwane Casey as coaches and players with the some of the highest IQs in the NBA. Combine that and you have god-tier late game execution. Caron Butler who has supposed to be the no. 2 player behind Dirk didn't even play for half the season.

2012 Heat would have had a good chance, 2013 Heat not so much.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

I mean, the 2011 Mavericks are STILL the only team to send this Heat team as constructed to postseason defeat.

I keep thinking how the Pacers/Celtics/Spurs came up short against them- and I could argue those teams in those years MIGHT have beaten those Mavs in a hypothetical series.

So, how the hell did they do it and nobody else can?

Is it the lack of a Dirk-like closer? Is it a savvy PG? Timely perimeter shooting?

The team was very well built, it really didn't have any holes at all. It had a very solid rotation with a few hall of fame worthy role/starters such as jason kidd who provides outstanding leadership (my favorite pg of the 2000s) and Dirk was their superstar who was on fire that series despite being sick. It was probably the most well balanced team in the finals in recent memory because the Spurs last year IMO lacked athleticism. The Mavs had DPOY who was quite an athletic beast during his absolute peak IMO in 2011, Tyson Chandler. They also spanked the defending champions pretty badly during the western conference playoffs.

[Derka]

That Mavs team wasn't constructed to beat the Heat. It was constructed to make a playoff push and a good coach used the pieces he had to play a superior series, thanks in large part to his veterans stepping up to the plate in a huge way.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

That Mavs team wasn't constructed to beat the Heat. It was constructed to make a playoff push and a good coach used the pieces he had to play a superior series, thanks in large part to his veterans stepping up to the plate in a huge way.

Yeah in some ways there team to always be constructed to make a playoff push. I felt their 2006 team was also very well built that reached the finals. But at this point, I think they got to revamp some parts of the roster to remain playoff contenders. Cuban really turned around this franchise with good management, I will give him that.

[SCdac]

man half the players on the '11 Heat retired soon after :oldlol: ... that team was put together on the fly... no Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Chis Anderson, etc.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0502/nba_g_mbiits_576.jpg
http://www.nba.com/heat/photos/600_dampierstackhouse_101123.jpg

[DMAVS41]

The Spurs did the exact same shit last year pretty much and it worked...especially it worked even better as the 13 Heat were so much worse than the 11 Heat.

If the Spurs didn't choke in game 6 it was a wrap...even with Tony Parker, Green, and Manu crumbling like they did.

Through the first 5.75 games of that series...Lebron was no better in 13 than he was in 11.

All the rest is just noise from Heat fans and Spurs fans about the Heat in 13 being better...which they clearly weren't.

[Cone]

2012 and 2013 Heat would have beaten the Mavs easily.

2011 Heat they still had leadership issues and their offense was more ISO a la OKC than it is now. Plus the fact that LeBron wet the bed.

stop making excuses you retard :oldlol: same goes for all the other 'lebron choked' kids.

the answer to this thread is because no one else has a dirk and the mavs knew how to stop lebron. give credit to dallas you ****ing geeks. great team with great coaching

[DMAVS41]

2012 and 2013 Heat would have beaten the Mavs easily.

2011 Heat they still had leadership issues and their offense was more ISO a la OKC than it is now. Plus the fact that LeBron wet the bed.

Just no.

The 12 Heat with a healthy Bosh might have...but the 13 Heat? What the **** are you on?

The 13 Heat might get swept by that Mavs team. Who is carrying the burden with Lebron struggling again? Wade wasn't remotely capable and Bosh had noticeably declined...and the role players were slumping as well.

People forget just how poor Lebron was through the first 5.75 games in the finals. Dude was at like 48% TS in 13 and then choked at the end of game 6 and it was straight up luck that the Spurs missed free throws to allow the Heat to even have a chance. The 11 Mavs are not letting that happen. Dirk/Terry aren't going to the line and blowing ft's...we weren't letting Lebron take over in a 4th qtr...etc.

Lebron shoots 48% TS through nearly the first 6 games against a team like the 11 Mavs with Wade/Bosh being shells and role players slumping...it's not even competitive. He shot 54% TS in the 11 finals...LOL

Mavs in 4...5 at most.

[Dresta]

People constantly overlook the amount of talent the Heat have.

Put Ray Allen on the Pacers and they benefit a ton from that. This guy never goes cold in the playoffs, has a knack for hitting clutch shots, is consistent as hell, will be in the HOF someday, and on the Heat he's just another player thrown into the mix.

It's what happens when a bunch of talented guys in one conference take paycuts to win. Ray Allen took well under TWICE his market value just to ringchase. And it's probably going to pay off because that Heat team is just loaded with too much talent to be beaten. Especially when you give them a cakewalk to the Finals.
errr... since when is this new? Ageing former stars regularly take less money to join good teams at the tailends of their careers. See: Nash to Lakers, Payton and Malone to Lakers, Payton to Miami, Shaq to Boston, and so on.

Overall, i would say Birdman was a more impactful signing than Ray, although Ray hit the biggest shot, and nobody else wanted him anyway. Ray clearly made the right decision though, as did the Heat. If he'd joined another team or stayed in Boston he wouldn't have won shit, but he joined Miami and played a big role in securing them the title. It was the right decision for him career and legacy-wise; i don't see how you can deny that.

[r15mohd]

the Mavs definitely didn't earn that 2011 ring...it was given right to them. Lebron refused to shoot, played lackadaisical to allow Wade to shine...it was Wade's last hooray and it just wasn't meant to be. Come 2011-2012 season, Wade takes 2nd option and instantly a championship. it then becomes repetitive in 2012-13 and the same force driving for a 3-peat now. fluke? definitely not...

as great as Dirk played, and he played REALLY good...Lebron gave it up for Wade's stardom

[SCdac]

credit to Lebron too.... for improving his game, post game, range, pacing and picking his spots.

He credits the Mavs loss for inspiration to improve (not surprising).

I relate it to Dirk collapsing in 2007 first round (his MVP year) which ultimately caused him to improve his post game and become tougher mentally and physically.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9109245/how-lebron-james-transformed-game-become-highly-efficient-scoring-machine

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/bd7cc748-834f-4253-96c9-8d6b9838aec5.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/7c1a46e5-42d0-44b8-a237-8f5abc354e24.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/c31699b7-c1f3-4b19-9cbd-d2a544dd6c69.jpg

[Upgrayedd]

Give the Spurs or Celtics that seasons Tyson Chandler and things would probably be different.

2012 Celtics:

C: Chandler (from 2011)
PF: KG
SF: Pierce
SG: Allen
PG: Rondo

2013 Spurs:

C: Chandler (2011)
PF: Duncan
SF: Leonard
SG: Green
PG: Parker

6th man: Ginobili

That Spurs team... :bowdown:

[r15mohd]

Just no.

The 12 Heat with a healthy Bosh might have...but the 13 Heat? What the **** are you on?

The 13 Heat might get swept by that Mavs team. Who is carrying the burden with Lebron struggling again? Wade wasn't remotely capable and Bosh had noticeably declined...and the role players were slumping as well.

People forget just how poor Lebron was through the first 5.75 games in the finals. Dude was at like 48% TS in 13 and then choked at the end of game 6 and it was straight up luck that the Spurs missed free throws to allow the Heat to even have a chance. The 11 Mavs are not letting that happen. Dirk/Terry aren't going to the line and blowing ft's...we weren't letting Lebron take over in a 4th qtr...etc.

Lebron shoots 48% TS through nearly the first 6 games against a team like the 11 Mavs with Wade/Bosh being shells and role players slumping...it's not even competitive. He shot 54% TS in the 11 finals...LOL

Mavs in 4...5 at most.


you ALWAYS try to big-up the Mavs as some unbeatable force...they won, we get that and Dirk deserved a ring for his play. :applause: but they aren't beating Miami in 2011-12 or 2012-13. Even 2010-11, had Lebron played with any effort, the Mavs lose.

he went from attacking in 2-series prior to that 2011 Finals (against tougher defenses, Celtics and Bulls IMO) and taking roughly 20 shots a game to standing in a corner during the finals and getting up 15? :wtf: that wasn't the Mavs defense, Lebron shut himself down

[jlip]

Becuz the mavs didnt beat the heat

Lebron did

This

[Dresta]

DMAVS is unaware that basketball is a team sport, and that Miami's overall supporting cast and team chemistry was far superior in 13 to 11. Nor did Lebron choke in 13 - Spurs were a better defensive team than those Mavs.

[DMAVS41]

DMAVS is unaware that basketball is a team sport, and that Miami's overall supporting cast and team chemistry was far superior in 13 to 11. Nor did Lebron choke in 13 - Spurs were a better defensive team than those Mavs.

What you don't understand is that the 11 Heat were just so much better as a "team" than you give them credit for.

After the 9-8 start...they wrecked the league until they played the Mavs.

Also;

11 Heat - 3rd best offense and 5th best defense
13 Heat - 2nd best offense and 9th best defense

That always makes me laugh...so this "worse" team was more balanced...LOL

Also, that doesn't even do it justice as the 11 Heat were healthy and dominating in the playoffs while the 13 Heat were hurt and slumping and just overall looking like shit.

[r15mohd]

What you don't understand is that the 11 Heat were just so much better as a "team" than you give them credit for.

After the 9-8 start...they wrecked the league until they played the Mavs.

Also;

11 Heat - 3rd best offense and 5th best defense
13 Heat - 2nd best offense and 9th best defense

That always makes me laugh...so this "worse" team was more balanced...LOL

Also, that doesn't even do it justice as the 11 Heat were healthy and dominating in the playoffs while the 13 Heat were hurt and slumping and just overall looking like shit.


for you to even indicate that the 2010-11 Heat team is more balanced than the 2012-13 Heat, even the 2011-2012 Heat, solidifies exactly why we can't take you seriously. just because of good numbers on the stat sheets? the Heat team has been so much more dominant since that 2010-11 season, it's not even comparable.

[DMAVS41]

you ALWAYS try to big-up the Mavs as some unbeatable force...they won, we get that and Dirk deserved a ring for his play. :applause: but they aren't beating Miami in 2011-12 or 2012-13. Even 2010-11, had Lebron played with any effort, the Mavs lose.

he went from attacking in 2-series prior to that 2011 Finals (against tougher defenses, Celtics and Bulls IMO) and taking roughly 20 shots a game to standing in a corner during the finals and getting up 15? :wtf: that wasn't the Mavs defense, Lebron shut himself down

The 11 Mavs might sweep the 13 Heat...it wouldn't be competitive...

12 Heat? Yea...with a healthy Bosh I could definitely see the Heat winning...and I'd certainly favor them in a series. Just like I'd favor this current Heat as they are healthy and not slumping right now.

But 13? It wouldn't even be close.

Lebron played just as bad through the first 5.75 games against the Spurs as he did against the Mavs in 11. The big difference is that there was nobody else to pick up the slack

Again...Lebron was shooting 48% TS through the first 5.75 games...and 48% TS through the first 6. That isn't good enough against the 11 Mavs...not even close.

I'd understand this if Lebron didn't play horribly in 13 as well through most of the series, but he did...and he did against an inferior opponent that was slumping themselves as green, parker, and manu wet the bed in the 2nd half o of the series.

So somehow Lebron shooting noticeably worse and playing with less help is going to beat a superior team? Makes no ****ing sense.

[Rose'sACL]

Just no.

The 12 Heat with a healthy Bosh might have...but the 13 Heat? What the **** are you on?

The 13 Heat might get swept by that Mavs team. Who is carrying the burden with Lebron struggling again? Wade wasn't remotely capable and Bosh had noticeably declined...and the role players were slumping as well.

People forget just how poor Lebron was through the first 5.75 games in the finals. Dude was at like 48% TS in 13 and then choked at the end of game 6 and it was straight up luck that the Spurs missed free throws to allow the Heat to even have a chance. The 11 Mavs are not letting that happen. Dirk/Terry aren't going to the line and blowing ft's...we weren't letting Lebron take over in a 4th qtr...etc.

Lebron shoots 48% TS through nearly the first 6 games against a team like the 11 Mavs with Wade/Bosh being shells and role players slumping...it's not even competitive. He shot 54% TS in the 11 finals...LOL

Mavs in 4...5 at most.
lebron had 22-11-7 through first 5 games against spurs. how is that same as 2011? Also, Spurs were better defensively than mavs. Also, even if role players go cold, the other team has to respect guys like allen and battier unlike what heat had in 2011. Mavs weren't as concerned about players other than big 3 as they would be if ray allen and battier were standing around 3 point line. Green and neal went off against heat like terry did plus the fact that heat had to really worry about duncan playing back to the basket game while playing better defense than anyone on that mavs team did.
2004 pistons and 2011 mavs both won because of other team's internal/mental issues.
2013 heat would play a 7 game series against 2011 mavs and would come out with a win. 2012 heat would win in 6. ISO ball plus lebron's choke-job killed the heat and that series still went to 6 games. 2011 heat would probably have won if they had same role players as 2013 heat even if lebron played like he did in 2011.
People really underrate duncan's defensive impact. Dirk didn't have some great series against miami. he shot 41% from the field.

[DMAVS41]

for you to even indicate that the 2010-11 Heat team is more balanced than the 2012-13 Heat, even the 2011-2012 Heat, solidifies exactly why we can't take you seriously. just because of good numbers on the stat sheets? the Heat team has been so much more dominant since that 2010-11 season, it's not even comparable.

They played similar offense and better defense in relation to the rest of the league.

They have not been more dominant at all. They almost lost in 2012 when they fell behind 3-2 to the Celtics...and came within 1 made ft or arguably the biggest shot in NBA history of losing in 13.

Dominant? That word has no place with the Heat since the formation...well, other than their run from the 9-8 start through the eastern conference playoffs in 11. That was a dominant run. Where they wrecked the league after the slow start by finishing 61-19 in the next 80 games (including 12-3 in the playoffs) until they faced the Mavs. Now that is a dominant run...

[Jameerthefear]

DMavs is right. People not giving the Mavs enough credit in that series.

[r15mohd]

They played similar offense and better defense in relation to the rest of the league.

They have not been more dominant at all. They almost lost in 2012 when they fell behind 3-2 to the Celtics...and came within 1 made ft or arguably the biggest shot in NBA history of losing in 13.

Dominant? That word has no place with the Heat since the formation...well, other than their run from the 9-8 start through the eastern conference playoffs in 11. That was a dominant run. Where they wrecked the league after the slow start by finishing 61-19 in the next 80 games (including 12-3 in the playoffs) until they faced the Mavs. Now that is a dominant run...

you have an agenda, and it's to big up the 2010-11 Heat so the Mavs look better...for you to think the Heat have not been even remotely dominant in any of the past 2-3 years to now is ridiculous. you've completely overlooked a 27-game win streak, 2012 playoff run, 2 MVPS by Lebron, etc

and some additional answers can be found in the post right above yours too

[DMAVS41]

lebron had 22-11-7 through first 5 games against spurs. how is that same as 2011? Also, Spurs were better defensively than mavs. Also, even if role players go cold, the other team has to respect guys like allen and battier unlike what heat had in 2011. Mavs weren't as concerned about players other than big 3 as they would be if ray allen and battier were standing around 3 point line. Green and neal went off against heat like terry did plus the fact that heat had to really worry about duncan playing back to the basket game while playing better defense than anyone on that mavs team did.
2004 pistons and 2011 mavs both won because of other team's internal/mental issues.
2013 heat would play a 7 game series against 2011 mavs and would come out with a win. 2012 heat would win in 6. ISO ball plus lebron's choke-job killed the heat and that series still went to 6 games. 2011 heat would probably have won if they had same role players as 2013 heat even if lebron played like he did in 2011.
People really underrate duncan's defensive impact. Dirk didn't have some great series against miami. he shot 41% from the field.

LOL...he was shooting roughly 6% worse TS as well...that is a huge difference. Huge!

Not to mention both Wade and Bosh were far worse than they were in 11 as well.

You aren't even talking about how much worse Wade/Bosh were.

Really want to go there? Okay;

Wade 27/7/5 61% TS
Bosh 19/7/1 50% TS
Lebron 19/7/7 54% TS
Chalmers 12/3/4 62% TS

Chalmers/Wade/Bosh were all clearly worse in 13 than they were in 11...and Lebron was on similar level through the first 5.75 games...and it wasn't going 7...so that game is not even relevant at all.

Ray Allen did have a nice series in 13, but Haslem in 11 had a nice series as well...so I'd like to know why the 13 Heat were better around Lebron...

Was it Cole's 3 points per game on 30% TS?

The 13 Heat were top heavy as well...they just had worse guys at the top...LOL

[creepingdeath]

The Mavs didn't even have their #2 option in the playoffs.. but yeah, fluke! :roll:

[DMAVS41]

you have an agenda, and it's to big up the 2010-11 Heat so the Mavs look better...for you to think the Heat have not been even remotely dominant in any of the past 2-3 years to now is ridiculous. you've completely overlooked a 27-game win streak, 2012 playoff run, 2 MVPS by Lebron, etc

and some additional answers can be found in the post right above yours too

actually it's not. I don't even give the Mavs much credit...I blame Lebron choking the most. There should be balance here...the Mavs deserve credit, but we also most acknowledge that Lebron went ghost. The problem for you is that Lebron went ghost through the first 6 games against the Spurs as well. Again, Lebron was scoring like 3 more points per game on 6% TS worse from the field. That wouldn't be remotely good enough against the 11 Mavs....we would have stomped them in 5 with Lebron never even getting the chance to make a run in game 6 and then play game 7.

Again...where is the dominance? They almost lost the last 2 years to inferior competition...

I'm not making this up. The Heat in 11 went on a 61-19 stretch before playing the Mavs in which they had the 3rd best offense and 5th best defense. Including dominating two very good teams in the 11 Bulls and 11 Celtics.

I'm sorry if you don't like reality and it doesn't fit with your BS narrative.

Just like the depth of the Heat in the 13 finals...meh...just no. It was all about the top 5 guys. Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Allen/Chalmers....just like it was all about the top 5 guys in 11....Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Halsem/Chalmers

And Wade, Bosh, and Chalmers were all way better in 11...just a ****ing fact.

Haslem and Allen were similar in terms of overall impact as well...

And Lebron was doing his same ghost act shooting like shit overall from the field and being passive...until the end of game 6. And again, nothing supports the 11 Mavs choking at the line or letting Lebron dominate like that...nor does anything support three key players falling apart like Parker, Green, and Manu did.

Guys like Barea, Terry, and Marion stepped up against the Heat...they didn't crumble.

Mavs in 5.

Again, the win streak Heat were a completely different team. The playoffs version of the Heat in 13 had an injured Wade, slumping Bosh...and a team of role players in shooting slumps.

[jlip]

lebron had 22-11-7 through first 5 games against spurs. how is that same as 2011?

This is important. The biggest knock against Lebron in the '11 Finals was his inexplicable passiveness. He wouldn't shoot to save his life. He never attempted more than 19 shots in any game during the '11 Finals, and that was only game five. During the first five games of the '13 Finals he had attempted at least 21 shots three times. He was far more aggressive and engaged in '13 than he was in '11.

[DMAVS41]

This is important. The biggest knock against Lebron in the '11 Finals was his inexplicable passiveness. He wouldn't shoot to save his life. He never attempted more than 19 shots in any game during the '11 Finals, and that was only game five. During the first five games of the '13 Finals he had attempted at least 21 shots three times. He was far more aggressive and engaged in '13 than he was in '11.

Mainly because the Mavs played better defense and forced him to pass more (again, this is where the Mavs had to be given some credit) and because Wade/Bosh were shells of themselves in 13 compared to 11.

You can't just ignore that.

But even if we do...48% TS isn't getting it done. Sorry...not close to good enough.

[Mr Exlax]

80% was the Mavs defense
10% LeBron didn't have any kind of post game
10% He choked

[r15mohd]

actually it's not. I don't even give the Mavs much credit...I blame Lebron choking the most. There should be balance here...the Mavs deserve credit, but we also most acknowledge that Lebron went ghost. The problem for you is that Lebron went ghost through the first 6 games against the Spurs as well. Again, Lebron was scoring like 3 more points per game on 6% TS worse from the field. That wouldn't be remotely good enough against the 11 Mavs....we would have stomped them in 5 with Lebron never even getting the chance to make a run in game 6 and then play game 7.

Again...where is the dominance? They almost lost the last 2 years to inferior competition...

I'm not making this up. The Heat in 11 went on a 61-19 stretch before playing the Mavs in which they had the 3rd best offense and 5th best defense. Including dominating two very good teams in the 11 Bulls and 11 Celtics.

I'm sorry if you don't like reality and it doesn't fit with your BS narrative.

Just like the depth of the Heat in the 13 finals...meh...just no. It was all about the top 5 guys. Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Allen/Chalmers....just like it was all about the top 5 guys in 11....Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Halsem/Chalmers

And Wade, Bosh, and Chalmers were all way better in 11...just a ****ing fact.

Haslem and Allen were similar in terms of overall impact as well...

And Lebron was doing his same ghost act shooting like shit overall from the field and being passive...until the end of game 6. And again, nothing supports the 11 Mavs choking at the line or letting Lebron dominate like that...nor does anything support three key players falling apart like Parker, Green, and Manu did.

Guys like Barea, Terry, and Marion stepped up against the Heat...they didn't crumble.

Mavs in 5.

you do realize the 2010-11 Heat also were worst against +.500 teams than any of the following seasons including this one, and also lost more games to the "non-weak" West as everyone touts here, right? :rolleyes: keep going though...like I said, it's an agenda of yours to get the Mavs ranks high as you can

and it's nice to see you bring in the 2011 Celtics and Bulls to play...reinforces my stance on Lebron taking himself right out the series than any notion of Mavs limiting him

[nzahir]

I am a lebron fan

He didnt show up big, 18, 7, or 6 and not shooting above 50% isnt like him.
The mavs played a zone defense and mia didnt have enough shooters(all went cold too) to space the floor or enough guys who could make plays off the dribble.
Mia also only depended on the big 3...there role guys were a younger rio, old bibby who was terrible in the playoffs, haslem who was also terrible off that injury, and miller who was also terrible off that injury.

And give credit to the mavs for playing a great zone d, not like they didnt deserve anything. They are still the only team to have beat mia in a series

[Rose'sACL]

Mainly because the Mavs played better defense and forced him to pass more (again, this is where the Mavs had to be given some credit) and because Wade/Bosh were shells of themselves in 13 compared to 11.

You can't just ignore that.

But even if we do...48% TS isn't getting it done. Sorry...not close to good enough.
why would lebron shoot 48%TS against 2011 mavs? he actually has a post game now and no one on those mavs team was as good as a 1-on-1 defender as kawhi for lebron and even last year duncan was better than 2011 chandler. Current lebron would have carved up that mavs defense.

[SCdac]

2013 Heat were the best in my book.. talk about being on fire ... really filled out their team, Lebron improved, Wade was awesome before getting hurt... could see arguments for 2012 team

http://gamedayr.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/miami-heat-27-game-win-streak-meme.png

[DMAVS41]

you do realize the 2010-11 Heat also were worst against +.500 teams, and also lost more games to the "non-weak" West as everyone touts here, right? :rolleyes: keep going though...like I said, it's an agenda of yours to get the Mavs ranks high as you can

and it's nice to see you bring in the 2011 Celtics and Bulls to play...reinforces my stance on Lebron taking himself right out the series than any notion of Mavs limiting him

It's both...it's not one or the other.

You have to give the Mavs credit...just like you have to mention Lebron taking himself out of the series and not being aggressive enough.

It's not all or nothing.

It's not an agenda...it's just facts...and you still ignore them.

Have you looked at any of the stats? Just look at the finals. Wade/Bosh/Chalmers all played singificantly better against the Mavs...way better....way way way better.

The Heat went 61-19 in the 80 games before the finals. They dominated good teams in the eastern conference playoffs. They had the most balance in terms of offense and defense of any version of the Heat to date overall in the regular season (even with the horrible start)

11 Heat - 3rd offense and 5th defense
12 Heat - 8th offense and 4th defense
13 Heat - 2nd offense and 9th defense
14 Heat - 5th offense and 11th defense

And then...the Heat in the playoffs in 11 were healthy and dominating other good teams.

All you are doing is ignoring reality for stupid narratives.

[DMAVS41]

2013 Heat were the best in my book.. talk about being on fire ... really filled out their team, Lebron improved, Wade was awesome before getting hurt... could see arguments for 2012 team

http://gamedayr.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/miami-heat-27-game-win-streak-meme.png

13 Heat were clearly the worst in the playoffs.

If they were healhty and playing like they did during the streak in the playoffs...they would have for sure been the best. But they were a slumping and injured team in the playoffs and were clearly the worst version of the Heat in the playoffs.

Everything points to it.

[DMAVS41]

why would lebron shoot 48%TS against 2011 mavs? he actually has a post game now and no one on those mavs team was as good as a 1-on-1 defender as kawhi for lebron and even last year duncan was better than 2011 chandler. Current lebron would have carved up that mavs defense.

Well...I really disagree here. The Mavs played Lebron way better than the Spurs did.

They would have taken him out of the flow as much as possible again...and we clearly had the players to do this...and then nobody on the 13 Heat could have consistently carried the load to beat a team as good as the 11 Mavs.


Again...Chalmers/Wade/Bosh all played signficantly better than they did in 13 in 11...and the Heat still lost in 6. Even if Lebron shoots 54% TS on higher volume like he did against the Mavs in 11....they have no chance because of the worse help he would have gotten.

Wade/Bosh/Chalmers combined to score 58 points per game on something like 58% TS in the 11 Finals

Wade/Bosh/Chalmers combined to score 43 points per game on something like 50% TS in the 13 Finals

Again...that isn't remotely good enough. 15 points per game on 8% TS difference is ****ing huge....just huge. Especially out of the key players.

[SCdac]

...2013 Heat would have for sure been the best...

Yeah agreed that 2013 Heat had the highest ceiling, deepest version of their team, they were gelled, Lebron was improved, and Andersen's shot blocking was invaluable. I'd take that team over any other version, Ray Allen's clutchness is important too. Injuries happen, but it doesn't change the fact that Heat improved over time (not surprising to anybody watches teams develop).

[r15mohd]

It's both...it's not one or the other.

You have to give the Mavs credit...just like you have to mention Lebron taking himself out of the series and not being aggressive enough.

It's not all or nothing.

It's not an agenda...it's just facts...and you still ignore them.

Have you looked at any of the stats? Just look at the finals. Wade/Bosh/Chalmers all played singificantly better against the Mavs...way better....way way way better.

The Heat went 61-19 in the 80 games before the finals. They dominated good teams in the eastern conference playoffs. They had the most balance in terms of offense and defense of any version of the Heat to date overall in the regular season (even with the horrible start)

11 Heat - 3rd offense and 5th defense
12 Heat - 8th offense and 4th defense
13 Heat - 2nd offense and 9th defense
14 Heat - 5th offense and 11th defense

And then...the Heat in the playoffs in 11 were healthy and dominating other good teams.

All you are doing is ignoring reality for stupid narratives.

I never said the Mavs didn't deserve the credit of taking advantage of Lebron, basically, sidelining himself. they did exactly what EVERY team would do when a weak link is exposed in the way Lebron showed. Mavs get the credit for that, but to say they stopped Lebron and made him become a floater on the court and shying to corners is not a Mavs doing, it's a Lebron doing.

you keep saying facts this and facts that...yet when I bring up facts to you, you deflect them. Miami was worse against the better teams in 2010-11. they were also worse against the West that same year and every year after that too. How is that more dominating, as you try to indicate, when they had runs of 25-5 against the West years after and 27-game win streaks?

again it is an agenda of yours...anytime a Mavs inkling comes into play about that 2010-11 season, you're in the thread bigging them up. this isn't the first time and I know it wouldn't be the last

[DMAVS41]

Yeah agreed that 2013 Heat had the highest ceiling, deepest version of their team, they were gelled, Lebron was improved, and Andersen's shot blocking was invaluable. I'd take that team over any other version, Ray Allen's clutchness is important too. Injuries happen, but it doesn't change the fact that Heat improved over time (not surprising to anybody watches teams develop).

Yea, but the problem is that an injured Wade seriously hurts the team. Just like a slumping Bosh seriously hurts the team.

Same thing with Chalmers.

Chalmers scored more and shot 11% higher TS against the 11 Mavs than he did against the 13 Spurs.

You always do this...you use evidence from the regular season when they were on fire and healhty...and then project that onto them in the playoffs when they were slumping and injured.

You do realize that right? It would be like Duncan getting hurt right now and you not making any room for that in your analysis and you are talking about how good the Spurs were during their big win streak when healthy and using that over how good they would be with Duncan playing hobbled.

Makes no sense.

But again...even with the win streak and regular season.

The 11 Heat were the most balanced version in terms of offense and defense in the regular sesaon. 3rd best offense and 5th best defense.

The 13 Heat had the 2nd best offense and 9th best defense.

You can't argue with that...

[imdaman99]

The Mavs didn't even have their #2 option in the playoffs.. but yeah, fluke! :roll:
Caron Butler is a career loser. He has a Rudy Gay effect... I am pretty sure the Mavs don't win it all if Butler doesn't get hurt. He is a guy who always shits the bed in the playoffs, and only got out of the 1st round once before this year. So him being out was addition by subtraction :cheers:

Everyone needs to give the Mavs some respect. It was no fluke, they beat great teams on their way to winning it all and were as mentally strong as any championship team.

[DMAVS41]

I never said the Mavs didn't deserve the credit of taking advantage of Lebron, basically, sidelining himself. they did exactly what EVERY team would do when a weak link is exposed in the way Lebron showed. Mavs get the credit for that, but to say they stopped Lebron and made him become a floater on the court and shying to corners is not a Mavs doing, it's a Lebron doing.

you keep saying facts this and facts that...yet when I bring up facts to you, you deflect them. Miami was worse against the better teams in 2010-11. they were also worse against the West that same year and every year after that too. How is that more dominating, as you try to indicate, when they had runs of 25-5 against the West years after and 27-game win streaks?

again it is an agenda of yours...anytime a Mavs inkling comes into play about that 2010-11 season, you're in the thread bigging them up. this isn't the first time and I know it wouldn't be the last

Because that is too specific...how a team performs in the regular season just means less to me...especially in narrow terms.

The East was better in 11 than it was in 13....and the Heat managed to have a better defense in 11 than they did in 13.

And I think the 11 playoffs trump regular season narrow evidence.

All I know is that the 11 Heat were the best overall version in terms of balance between elite offense and elite defense in relation to the league...and they did that despite really struggling for nearly 25% of the season. Then they got it together and dominated the league.

Also, they lost early on to a lot of those "good" teams you are talking about.

In the first 17 games in which they 11 heat were clearly struggling with chemistry and other issues...

They lost to the Celtics twice, the Magic, the Grizzlies, and the Mavericks...so 5 of their 8 losses came to really good teams out of those first 17 games in which they weren't even close to the team they would later become.

Then they managed to go 61-19 in their next 80 games (with 15 of those games coming in the playoffs in which they went 12-3)

I think the Heat going 8-2 vs the Celtics/Bulls in the playoffs means way more than the above...

[305Baller]

They have Cole to cover the Barea's and LeBrons improved.

[r15mohd]

Because that is too specific...how a team performs in the regular season just means less to me...especially in narrow terms.

The East was better in 11 than it was in 13....and the Heat managed to have a better defense in 11 than they did in 13.

And I think the 11 playoffs trump regular season narrow evidence.

All I know is that the 11 Heat were the best overall version in terms of balance between elite offense and elite defense in relation to the league...and they did that despite really struggling for nearly 25% of the season. Then they got it together and dominated the league.

Also, they lost early on to a lot of those "good" teams you are talking about.

In the first 17 games in which they 11 heat were clearly struggling with chemistry and other issues...

They lost to the Celtics twice, the Magic, the Grizzlies, and the Mavericks...so 5 of their 8 losses came to really good teams out of those first 17 games in which they weren't even close to the team they would later become.

Then they managed to go 61-19 in their next 80 games (with 15 of those games coming in the playoffs in which they went 12-3)

I think the Heat going 8-2 vs the Celtics/Bulls in the playoffs means way more than the above...


how is it too specific now...in the previous pages you're using all the RS and everything under the sun to prove your point, I post a notion about misleading info about how "dominant" they were that 2010-11 season and now it's "too specific" :facepalm

and again, that same notion about the Heat going 8-2 against the Bulls/Celtics is further proof that Lebron did his own disappearing act. Those teams had way better defenses and offense (Bulls) than did the Mavs that same year. Yet you try and drill it through on ISH that the Mavs did a heroic and found, as the OP noted, a "formula" to stop Lebron :rolleyes:

[ImKobe]

2011 Mavs are honestly overrated. It took a huge choke job from the Heat's best player for them to win in 6 games. It worked because Miami couldn't expose their zone defense, that is not the case now. Miami loaded up with 3pt shooters and they got Bosh to expand his range as well. Teams try to dare Miami to shoot long 2s and threes, but it just doesn't work.

Spurs did the same thing in the Finals and it worked in the first 5 games, but Lebron got hot in Game 6 and Wade was hitting everything from mid-range in Game 7. Simply doesn't work anymore. Miami has no weaknesses right now.

[creepingdeath]

Caron Butler is a career loser. He has a Rudy Gay effect... I am pretty sure the Mavs don't win it all if Butler doesn't get hurt. He is a guy who always shits the bed in the playoffs, and only got out of the 1st round once before this year. So him being out was addition by subtraction :cheers:

Everyone needs to give the Mavs some respect. It was no fluke, they beat great teams on their way to winning it all and were as mentally strong as any championship team.
Well, the Mavs were en route for 60+ wins before Dirk (and shortly thereafter, Butler) got hurt, so I don't see how they would have gotten worse with him on the team. But maybe you're right and his injury had a positive effect on the team. Anyway, I agree with you that he is no high impact player.

[kentatm]

its stunning that to this day many of you on this board cannot comprehend that it was not that LeBron choked but that it was that the Mavs successfully implemented their plan to freeze him out as much as possible via ball denial, double teams, and funneling the ball to Wade/everyone else as much as they possibly could b/c they didn't think Wade and co had the ability to carry the Heat the way LeBron can.

[Dresta]

smh DMAVS once again thinking it makes no difference to a team if they are starting Mike Bibby and Joel Anthony as long as their other guys are good. What don't you get about the fact that if Miami wanted to win a series they had to get elite production from 2 of their 3 stars, because the rest of their team was complete ass? In the finals only one of the 3 showed up in D-Wade, hence the loss. The Mavs executed well, but you are overrating them as a team. In 2013 Miami had more leeway because they had a better team that played better team basketball, even if Wade wasn't nearly as good as in 11. Wade may not have been the player he was, but he still managed a good series, and, just as importantly, Battier, Miller, Jesus and Birdman all stepped up and contributed big time. It was undoubtedly a more complete and better balanced team.

To think the Mavs would win in 5 is completely delusional considering how the Spurs have played the last two seasons; you are seriously underrating them as a team (not surprising considering you're Mavs obsessed).

[r15mohd]

its stunning that to this day many of you on this board cannot comprehend that it was not that LeBron choked but that it was that the Mavs successfully implemented their plan to freeze him out as much as possible via ball denial, double teams, and funneling the ball to Wade/everyone else as much as they possibly could b/c they didn't think Wade and co had the ability to carry the Heat the way LeBron can.

Lebrons complete approach to the Finals was passive...it disapproves this notion completely

you do know that in the Celtics series that same year, they allowed Wade to be an aggressor too...what happened was a 30pt series from him on pretty good efficiency and a 4-1 series win.

[Dresta]

its stunning that to this day many of you on this board cannot comprehend that it was not that LeBron choked but that it was that the Mavs successfully implemented their plan to freeze him out as much as possible via ball denial, double teams, and funneling the ball to Wade/everyone else as much as they possibly could b/c they didn't think Wade and co had the ability to carry the Heat the way LeBron can.
:facepalm

Then why was it he disappeared at the exact moments when Miami looked like getting an unassailable (or close to unassailable) lead (4th quarters of game 2 and 4)? Explain this please. Or did the Mavs only employ their 'freeze Lebron' defense when it looked like the series was almost over?

Location, Dallas: big surprise there :hammerhead: .

[FLDFSU]

I mean, the 2011 Mavericks are STILL the only team to send this Heat team as constructed to postseason defeat.

I keep thinking how the Pacers/Celtics/Spurs came up short against them- and I could argue those teams in those years MIGHT have beaten those Mavs in a hypothetical series.

So, how the hell did they do it and nobody else can?

Is it the lack of a Dirk-like closer? Is it a savvy PG? Timely perimeter shooting?

This is not the same Miami team

[DMAVS41]

smh DMAVS once again thinking it makes no difference to a team if they are starting Mike Bibby and Joel Anthony as long as their other guys are good. What don't you get about the fact that if Miami wanted to win a series they had to get elite production from 2 of their 3 stars, because the rest of their team was complete ass? In the finals only one of the 3 showed up in D-Wade, hence the loss. The Mavs executed well, but you are overrating them as a team. In 2013 Miami had more leeway because they had a better team that played better team basketball, even if Wade wasn't nearly as good as in 11. Wade may not have been the player he was, but he still managed a good series, and, just as importantly, Battier, Miller, Jesus and Birdman all stepped up and contributed big time. It was undoubtedly a more complete and better balanced team.

To think the Mavs would win in 5 is completely delusional considering how the Spurs have played the last two seasons; you are seriously underrating them as a team (not surprising considering you're Mavs obsessed).

Not true. The Bulls lost in 5 to the Heat with Wade really struggling in that series.

Also, where was the great depth in 13 in the finals?

Norris Cole and Miller played the 6th and 7th most minutes on the team and combined for 8 points a game and played shitty defense (especially Miller)...

This notion that the 13 Heat were this team full of great depth is laughable...you got shit production in the finals from the 6th and 7th man...and lets also not act like Birdman's 14 minutes a game swung the series....etc.

No doubt the the 13 team was deeper, but it's almost irrelelvant as they were both top 5 heavy teams.

And they were easily better at the top around lebron in 11 as Wade/Chalmers/Bosh were all significantly better.

The difference was the Mavs defensive scheme against Lebron and the fact that Lebron was forced to be more aggressive against a similar scheme in 13 because he had less help.

Also, what is going unnoticed here is that the Spurs basically won the series and they beat themselves. Again, nothing supports the Mavs role players crumbling like the Spurs did. Marion, Kidd, Terry, and Barea all stepped up huge...totally different.

Stop ignroing that Wade/Bosh/Chalmers combined to score 15 more points per game on 8% better TS in the 11 finals vs 13.

If the Mavs had to play the 13 Heat...they could have adopted the same strategy....except this time there was nobody on the Heat that could have consistently carried the load and it would have been a dominant Mavs victory.

[Hey Yo]

I mean, the 2011 Mavericks are STILL the only team to send this Heat team as constructed to postseason defeat.

I keep thinking how the Pacers/Celtics/Spurs came up short against them- and I could argue those teams in those years MIGHT have beaten those Mavs in a hypothetical series.

So, how the hell did they do it and nobody else can?

Is it the lack of a Dirk-like closer? Is it a savvy PG? Timely perimeter shooting?
Mavs didn't do anything. It was Wade asking LeBron to take a backseat in the Finals so he could get one last Finals MVP. You don't ask the best player in the world to be 2nd fiddle.

At least Wade came to his senses, realized he was dumb for doing this and turned the team over to LeBron before the following season started.

[SCdac]

2011 Mavs are honestly overrated. It took a huge choke job from the Heat's best player for them to win in 6 games. It worked because Miami couldn't expose their zone defense, that is not the case now. Miami loaded up with 3pt shooters and they got Bosh to expand his range as well. Teams try to dare Miami to shoot long 2s and threes, but it just doesn't work.

Spurs did the same thing in the Finals and it worked in the first 5 games, but Lebron got hot in Game 6 and Wade was hitting everything from mid-range in Game 7. Simply doesn't work anymore. Miami has no weaknesses right now.

IDK if they are "overrated", because they're probably not regarded as one of the strongest championship teams of the last 10-15 years. Cuban dismantled the team in the offseason, they got swept the next season, missed the playoffs, just haven't looked nearly the same since losing Chandler. Dirk was arguably not in his physical prime in 2011, one could argue he's had better playoff years (2006), BUT he was hungry to win and his contemporary bigman competition had diminished alot or retired altogether by 2011 (Duncan, Shaq, KG, Webber, etc). It was Dirk's time to shine, in other words. But a team is not one or two players, and the Mavs were really deep. The "Fluke" talk in this thread is absurd, Mavs definitely earned it. Credit to everybody from Chandler to Dirk to Kidd. Lebron choked massively but it's partly due to the defense.

[Dresta]

Not true. The Bulls lost in 5 to the Heat with Wade really struggling in that series.

Also, where was the great depth in 13 in the finals?

Norris Cole and Miller played the 6th and 7th most minutes on the team and combined for 8 points a game and played shitty defense (especially Miller)...

This notion that the 13 Heat were this team full of great depth is laughable...you got shit production in the finals from the 6th and 7th man...and lets also not act like Birdman's 14 minutes a game swung the series....etc.

No doubt the the 13 team was deeper, but it's almost irrelelvant as they were both top 5 heavy teams.

And they were easily better at the top around lebron in 11 as Wade/Chalmers/Bosh were all significantly better.

The difference was the Mavs defensive scheme against Lebron and the fact that Lebron was forced to be more aggressive against a similar scheme in 13 because he had less help.

Also, what is going unnoticed here is that the Spurs basically won the series and they beat themselves. Again, nothing supports the Mavs role players crumbling like the Spurs did. Marion, Kidd, Terry, and Barea all stepped up huge...totally different.

Stop ignroing that Wade/Bosh/Chalmers combined to score 15 more points per game on 8% better TS in the 11 finals vs 13.

If the Mavs had to play the 13 Heat...they could have adopted the same strategy....except this time there was nobody on the Heat that could have consistently carried the load and it would have been a dominant Mavs victory.That doesn't make what i said untrue: i said two of the big 3 had to play at an elite level for them to win. Bosh was elite in that series against Chicago - he was arguably the best player in that series. If he'd played like that against Dallas then they would have won even with Bron playing like he did.

Dallas could have employed the same strategy in 2013 as they did in 2011, but Allen, Battier and Miller would've annihilated them from 3. There were just a lot more reliable shooters on that 2013 team than the 2011. Stop ignoring that in 2013 Miami had Battier shooting 69 TS%, Miller with 84 TS%, Allen with 72 TS%, and Birdman with 71%: that is 26ppg on insane efficiency that wasn't there in 2011. Why are you pretending that this doesn't make a difference?

[r15mohd]

Mavs didn't do anything. It was Wade asking LeBron to take a backseat in the Finals so he could get one last Finals MVP. You don't ask the best player in the world to be 2nd fiddle.

At least Wade came to his senses, realized he was dumb for doing this and turned the team over to LeBron before the following season started.

i think this was an agreement between them (Wade/Lebron) and Riles...under the table deal of course, so Wade looks top notch, but it just wasn't meant to be



and DMAVS...how is it a defensive scheme by the Mavs when Lebron takes himself out the game. did the Mavs make Lebron completely PASSIVE as opposed to just the series before in being aggressive with the Bulls?

Destra noted two key games where Lebron just went completely missing in games 2 and 4...which is much different to last season against the Spurs. he shot against the Spurs, he just couldn't hit anything majority of the series. against the Mavs he wasn't even asking for the ball and deferred to Wade when he did get it.

[r15mohd]

That doesn't make what i said untrue: i said two of the big 3 had to play at an elite level for them to win. Bosh was elite in that series against Chicago - he was arguably the best player in that series. If he'd played like that against Dallas then they would have won even with Bron playing like he did.

Dallas could have employed the same strategy in 2013 as they did in 2011, but Allen, Battier and Miller would've annihilated them from 3. There were just a lot more reliable shooters on that 2013 team than the 2011. Stop ignoring that in 2013 Miami had Battier shooting 69 TS%, Miller with 84 TS%, Allen with 72 TS%, and Birdman with 71%: that is 26ppg on insane efficiency that wasn't there in 2011. Why are you pretending that this doesn't make a difference?


http://www.gvp.org/sites/gvp/files/Board%20Agenda/Agenda%20clipart.png

[SCdac]

Lebron had a 37 point Game 7 in last years Finals and really came through in second half of Game 6. Comparisons to the 2011 Finals are so off base. He went straight ghost in 2011, mentally folded. Mavs got into his head, and wouldn't surprise me if LJ didn't want Wade to get Finals MVP.

[r15mohd]

Lebron had a 37 point Game 7 in last years Finals and really came through in second half of Game 6. Comparisons to the 2011 Finals are so off base. He went straight ghost in 2011, mentally folded. Mavs got into his head, and wouldn't surprise me if LJ didn't want Wade to get Finals MVP.


doubt that...he's never had ill-feelings to Wade to even consider that thought. he let Wade be the aggressor to actually win FMVP, which he did in deferring to Wade many times during that Mavs Finals.

[DMAVS41]

That doesn't make what i said untrue: i said two of the big 3 had to play at an elite level for them to win. Bosh was elite in that series against Chicago - he was arguably the best player in that series. If he'd played like that against Dallas then they would have won even with Bron playing like he did.

Dallas could have employed the same strategy in 2013 as they did in 2011, but Allen, Battier and Miller would've annihilated them from 3. There were just a lot more reliable shooters on that 2013 team than the 2011. Stop ignoring that in 2013 Miami had Battier shooting 69 TS%, Miller with 84 TS%, Allen with 72 TS%, and Birdman with 71%: that is 26ppg on insane efficiency that wasn't there in 2011. Why are you pretending that this doesn't make a difference?

The sample is just so small there though.

Birdman played 5 games in the series and took a total of 11 shots.

Battier took a total of 27 shots.

You ignored Cole...who played the 7th most minutes and took 22 shots (made 6 for the series)

Miller...despite playing a lot of minutes...only took 22 shots as well.

The guy in 13 that really mattered was Allen...that was a difference maker. Although again, Haslem was a serious difference maker in 11 as well. Especially on defense.

The other stuff is just random role player stuff that if they were asked to do more...would most likely have fallen off.

But LOL at listing Birdman...dude took 11 ****ing shots for the series.:facepalm


Like I said...it was a top 5 heavy team in 13 just like it was in 11. And while the depth was better in 13...it by no means makes up for the drastic difference in play on both ends from Bosh/Chalmers/Wade.

And, I might add, the Mavs were clealry better than the Spurs...and certainly didn't have role players crumble the way Green, Parker, and Manu did in the 2nd half of the series.

[FLDFSU]

The 2011 Mavs biggest achievement was sweeping the back to back defending champs. Not beating a misfit heat team without a point guard or center.

That Heat team wad predicted to lose in the second round of the playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

Lebron had a 37 point Game 7 in last years Finals and really came through in second half of Game 6. Comparisons to the 2011 Finals are so off base. He went straight ghost in 2011, mentally folded. Mavs got into his head, and wouldn't surprise me if LJ didn't want Wade to get Finals MVP.

The point is that the Mavs would never have given him the chance at either. That's on the Spurs...that is their fault they choked away game 6....

[Hey Yo]

Lebron had a 37 point Game 7 in last years Finals and really came through in second half of Game 6. Comparisons to the 2011 Finals are so off base. He went straight ghost in 2011, mentally folded. Mavs got into his head, and wouldn't surprise me if LJ didn't want Wade to get Finals MVP.
If that were the case, then we would possibly be seeing Miami going for their 4th straight title and James his 4th straight Finals MVP.

Instead, Wade wanted to be the man in the 2011 Finals.

[DMAVS41]

i think this was an agreement between them (Wade/Lebron) and Riles...under the table deal of course, so Wade looks top notch, but it just wasn't meant to be



and DMAVS...how is it a defensive scheme by the Mavs when Lebron takes himself out the game. did the Mavs make Lebron completely PASSIVE as opposed to just the series before in being aggressive with the Bulls?

Destra noted two key games where Lebron just went completely missing in games 2 and 4...which is much different to last season against the Spurs. he shot against the Spurs, he just couldn't hit anything majority of the series. against the Mavs he wasn't even asking for the ball and deferred to Wade when he did get it.

What? I already said this...it was both...and I thought you conceded that.

The Mavs game plan was to force Lebron into a passer...and it succeeded. What you can't fully credit the Mavs for is Lebron going so passive and then also sucking ass defensively as well.

It's both.

And at least you admit Lebron went missing in the Spurs series...it was just a different kind of missing. He was willing to shoot more...he just couldn't make anything.

So I don't get the point there. He scroed 18 points on 54% TS against the mavs....and through 6 games scored 23 points per game on 49% TS against the Spurs.

That is comparable output. I honestly don't know which is better. 5 more points on 4 or so less TS% is a tough call.

You guys would have a real argument if Lebron was noticeably better against the Spurs through 6 games...and he just wasn't. He was at sub 50% TS and had an epic choke at the end of game 6...mutliple misses and multiple terrible turnovers. It took an even bigger choke from the Spurs to even make the Ray Allen shot possible.

And sorry...the 11 Mavs aren't crumbling in crunch time. They were the best crunch time team in the playoffs in like 20 years or more with Dirk/Terry...all they did was make huge play after huge play late in games. Yet you want me to believe that they aren't going to curb stomp a slumping Lebron and injured Wade and shell of himself Bosh with Chalmers also in a shooting slump? ROFL...it would have been so ugly. Especially as the 13 Heat didn't have the kind of team to guard Dirk either. They would have had to play old Haslem more...and that would have killed their offense. Dirk would have had a series similar to the OKC series unless the Heat went big...and if they go big...it's even more trouble.

Who is guarding Dirk on the 13 Heat? Birdman played 14 minutes per game and only played 5 games. Haslem played 10 minutes a game and only played 6 games. Bosh? Lebron? ROFL...Dirk would have ****ing raped them.

[fpliii]

If that were the case, then we would possibly be seeing Miami going for their 4th straight title and James his 4th straight Finals MVP.

Instead, Wade wanted to be the man in the 2011 Finals.
Huh? Wade was a lock to win in 2011 if Miami won, so how would this be LeBron's 4th straight FMVP?

[Hey Yo]

Huh? Wade was a lock to win in 2011 if Miami won, so how would this be LeBron's 4th straight FMVP?
Because James wouldn't have been so passive in order to let Wade shine the brightest.

[r15mohd]

What? I already said this...it was both...and I thought you conceded that.

The Mavs game plan was to force Lebron into a passer...and it succeeded. What you can't fully credit the Mavs for is Lebron going so passive and then also sucking ass defensively as well.

It's both.

And at least you admit Lebron went missing in the Spurs series...it was just a different kind of missing. He was willing to shoot more...he just couldn't make anything.

So I don't get the point there. He scroed 18 points on 54% TS against the mavs....and through 6 games scored 23 points per game on 49% TS against the Spurs.

That is comparable output. I honestly don't know which is better. 5 more points on 4 or so less TS% is a tough call.

i don't believe i conceded to your notion...i said Lebron went missing/passive and that the Mavs took advantage of it as would any other team in their scenario.

and 5 more points is the total difference between games 2 and 4 combined in that Mavs Finals...you're losing every stance you try to make in that the Mavs have Lebron's kryptonite :facepalm

[Rocketswin2013]

I can't see current LeBron losing to any team not lead by Jordan, Kareem or Russell.

2011 was one of his weaker years in general. Without even counting the playoffs. Ever since Hakeem gave LeBron those post lessons he hasn't been beaten.

[DMAVS41]

i don't believe i conceded to your notion...i said Lebron went missing/passive and that the Mavs took advantage of it as would any other team in their scenario.

and 5 more points is the total difference between games 2 and 4 combined in that Mavs Finals...you're losing every stance you try to make in that the Mavs have Lebron's kryptonite :facepalm

Moron...you don't get to just add 5 points. Those 5 points came at like 4.3% worse TS for Lebron.

So you give the Mavs no credit for slowing down Lebron? It was all him...is that the position you are taking?

[fpliii]

Because James wouldn't have been so passive in order to let Wade shine the brightest.
But don't you think that was the point?

[QUOTE] Cuban: Last year, did we play harder than the Heat? Is that what you think it was?

Bayless: No, I don

[fpliii]

I can't see current LeBron losing to any team not lead by Jordan, Kareem or Russell.

2011 was one of his weaker years in general. Without even counting the playoffs. Ever since Hakeem gave LeBron those post lessons he hasn't been beaten.
01 Lakers?

[DMAVS41]

But don't you think that was the point?



source: http://mavsblog.dallasnews.com/2012/06/video-mark-cuban-takes-skip-bayless-media-to-task-for-not-giving-mavericks-for-2011-victory.html/

Dallas played LeBron that way because they knew that if you took the drive away from 2011 LeBron, he wasn't going to punish you.

I'm not sure if being passive or not is something he could've switched on or off. If LeBron has his post game of the past three years or has confidence in his jumper, the Mavs' gameplan doesn't work.

Yes it does...the Spurs did a very similar plan...although not quite as good...and Lebron's jumper was even more broke in the 13 finals than it was in the 11 finals.

His scoring efficiency through the first 6 games was noticeably worse.

This notion that Lebron played much better through the first 6 games needs to stop. If Ray Allen misses that shot...we are all still talking about how bad Lebron's series was yet again in the finals.

Props to Lebron for having an epic game 7...and he does deserve a lot of credit for that. But there is no ****ing way he's getting to a game 7 against the Superior 11 Mavs that cause far more matchup problems for the Heat than an old Spurs team with Parker, Manu, Green crumbling under the pressure.

Just look at the teams.

Dirk was clearly the best player on either the Spurs or Mavs;

Terry was way better than Parker.
Marion was 90% as good as Leonard.
Kidd was better than Manu.
Chandler was way better than Splitter.

Green was great the first half of the series...but in the last 2 games went 2 of 19 from the field.

Barea and Stevenson really came through in big moments.

That Mavs team was just better than the Spurs...especially vs the Heat. We had the clear best player that caused huge issues for the Heat with and without the ball. Our 2nd best player was easily better than the Spurs 2nd best player...and then we had our role players step up in key moments/games to put the Heat away while the likes of Manu/Green/Parker crumbled in the most important moments...going a combined 8 of 35 from the field in game 6. Meanwhile...Terry/Kidd/Barea went a combined 20 of 32 in the deciding game 6.

Mavs were just better.

[shortsoptional]

Dallas and Miami played a total of 8 games in the 2010-2011 season.

Dallas won 6 of them.

Dallas was the better team.

LeBron sucked, and Dallas had something to do with that.

[Rocketswin2013]

01 Lakers?
Good call. Peak Shaq, peak Kobe.

[r15mohd]

Moron...you don't get to just add 5 points. Those 5 points came at like 4.3% worse TS for Lebron.

So you give the Mavs no credit for slowing down Lebron? It was all him...is that the position you are taking?

you just said replace 2011 Lebron with 2013 Lebron and now saying the TS% wont allow the increments of the 5pts, and yet call me the moron? :confusedshrug:

Mavs get the credit for taking advantage of a passive Lebron...the Mavs DIDN'T shut him down or eliminate his game. how could that be when the previous 3-series he was the complete opposite. did the cartoon character from Space Jam steal his skills for that one series only? :facepalm

i hate to say it...but I'm with Skip Bayless in that interview with Cuban. Lebron stood on the perimeter and deferred majority of the time.

[Hey Yo]

But don't you think that was the point?



source: http://mavsblog.dallasnews.com/2012/06/video-mark-cuban-takes-skip-bayless-media-to-task-for-not-giving-mavericks-for-2011-victory.html/

Dallas played LeBron that way because they knew that if you took the drive away from 2011 LeBron, he wasn't going to punish you.

I'm not sure if being passive or not is something he could've switched on or off. If LeBron has his post game of the past three years or has confidence in his jumper, the Mavs' gameplan doesn't work.
That's the first time I've seen that Q&A and definitely the first time I've agreed with Bayless.

Like the other poster said (who agreed with me originally) 2011 Finals looked like a pact between Wade, LeBron and Riley to let Wade try to get the Finals MVP. In order for that to happen, James has to hold his game back and watch.

It obviously backfired.

[DMAVS41]

you just said replace 2011 Lebron with 2013 Lebron and now saying the TS% wont allow the increments of the 5pts, and yet call me the moron? :confusedshrug:

Mavs get the credit for taking advantage of a passive Lebron...the Mavs DIDN'T shut him down or eliminate his game. how could that be when the previous 3-series he was the complete opposite. did the cartoon character from Space Jam steal his skills for that one series only? :facepalm

i hate to say it...but I'm with Skip Bayless in that interview with Cuban. Lebron stood on the perimeter and deferred majority of the time.

He can get the 5 points...but you have to factor in the 4% or more TS drop. You can't just add 5 points without talking about how less efficient he was.

So again...you give the Mavs no credit for causing Lebron to play passive. You are giving the Mavs credit only for taking advantage of Lebron playing that way.

I completely disagree...but even if that were the case and the Mavs deserve not credit for causing it...then we still are better than the Spurs because we did take advantage of it and the Spurs didn't.

Lebron wasn't passive through the first 3 qtrs of game 6? When he was 3 of 12 from the field and in ghost mode? A championship team stomps the life out of the Heat in that moment....so by your own words even without giving the Mavs any credit for causing it...they at least took advantage of it and the Spurs did not.

Therefore the Mavs deserve more credit than the Spurs which is another way of saying we were just clearly better (which is obvious to anyone watching the playoffs or finals that year)....

So if the 13 Heat should have lost to an inferior Spurs team...why would the 13 Heat beat a superior Mavs team that you just said could have taken advantage of Lebron/Wade going ghost mode at times?

And I'll ask again. Who is guarding Dirk on the 13 Heat? Haslem had declined and wasn't nearly as capable...not to mention even if he could have...he kills their offense. Birdman really isn't great at it to begin with, but he missed 2 games and played limited minutes as well. So if you want to talk about spreading the floor for Lebron...who is guarding Dirk? Lebron? Well that isn't working....Bosh? LOL...that isn't working.

So who is stopping Dirk? he already went for like 26/10/3 54% TS against a team much better suited to stop him with Anthony and Haslem. So what do you think Dirk is going to do going against old Haslem, worse Bosh, and Birdman? He's going to rape them just like he raped Ibaka and Collison when the Thunder singled him in the WCF to the tune of 32 points per game on 70% TS.

[ArbitraryWater]

LeBron choked, that was it.. 100% honest. Gladly took it though.

[fpliii]

i think this was an agreement between them (Wade/Lebron) and Riles...under the table deal of course, so Wade looks top notch, but it just wasn't meant to be



and DMAVS...how is it a defensive scheme by the Mavs when Lebron takes himself out the game. did the Mavs make Lebron completely PASSIVE as opposed to just the series before in being aggressive with the Bulls?

Destra noted two key games where Lebron just went completely missing in games 2 and 4...which is much different to last season against the Spurs. he shot against the Spurs, he just couldn't hit anything majority of the series. against the Mavs he wasn't even asking for the ball and deferred to Wade when he did get it.


That's the first time I've seen that Q&A and definitely the first time I've agreed with Bayless.

Like the other poster said (who agreed with me originally) 2011 Finals looked like a pact between Wade, LeBron and Riley to let Wade try to get the Finals MVP. In order for that to happen, James has to hold his game back and watch.

It obviously backfired.
Eh, I don't know if I can buy into that type of stuff. If you choose to, it's your call (and we'll never know, since if that conversation happened, we aren't and likely will never be privy to it), more power to you (though I'm of the opinion that that Q&A, and the associated video, is Bayless at his worst, with him coming off as very out of his element and league with somebody breaking down what happened in terms of actual gameplanning/x's and o's, especially since he has inside knowledge).

But without any inside knowledge, it's entirely speculation. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather go with the 100% basketball explanation, and stay away from the conspiracy and psychoanalysis stuff (not that there's anything wrong with that). It can be fun at times, but there's not much to be gained if we're not furthering the conversation. :confusedshrug:

Agree to disagree I guess, my good man.

[D-Rose]

Y'all sound like a bunch of whiny Skip Bayless' in here saying that it was LBJ choking and not how the Mavs played.

I'll let Mark Cuban handle this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAkVnlA9CJo

[DMAVS41]

Eh, I don't know if I can buy into that type of stuff. If you choose to, it's your call (and we'll never know, since if that conversation happened, we aren't and likely will never be privy to it), more power to you (though I'm of the opinion that that Q&A, and the associated video, is Bayless at his worst, with him coming off as very out of his element and league with somebody breaking down what happened in terms of actual gameplanning/x's and o's, especially since he has inside knowledge).

But without any inside knowledge, it's entirely speculation. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather go with the 100% basketball explanation, and stay away from the conspiracy and psychoanalysis stuff (not that there's anything wrong with that). It can be fun at times, but there's not much to be gained if we're not furthering the conversation. :confusedshrug:

Agree to disagree I guess, my good man.


It's both.

Its' basketball reasons and it's about the pressure overwhelming him.

To act like it's all or nothing is silly. Cuban is right about a lot of what he says, but he's also wrong to pretend like pressure and expectations don't impact results as well.

These are not robots out there....when the game is on the line...that pressure impacts players in different ways. You see great ft shooters miss free throws all the time in pressure situations. You see great players like Kobe go 6 of 24 in the biggest game of his career.

In this series alone you saw Dirk go 9 of 27 in the final game as he was clearly jacked up for the game and it threw him off as he missed like 11 of his first 12 shots and 9 of them were wide open.

To ignore the psychology behind the game is just as bad as pretending like the opponent has no impact on how a player plays.

It is not hard. It's both...

[r15mohd]

Eh, I don't know if I can buy into that type of stuff. If you choose to, it's your call (and we'll never know, since if that conversation happened, we aren't and likely will never be privy to it), more power to you (though I'm of the opinion that that Q&A, and the associated video, is Bayless at his worst, with him coming off as very out of his element and league with somebody breaking down what happened in terms of actual gameplanning/x's and o's, especially since he has inside knowledge).

But without any inside knowledge, it's entirely speculation. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather go with the 100% basketball explanation, and stay away from the conspiracy and psychoanalysis stuff (not that there's anything wrong with that). It can be fun at times, but there's not much to be gained if we're not furthering the conversation. :confusedshrug:

Agree to disagree I guess, my good man.

definitely understand that position and it's a perfectly fine thought...but it leaves no explanation to Lebron's 3-series prior to the Finals in being aggressive and all of a sudden he hit's the Finals and is completely the opposite and passive? doesn't add up, even the whole season he was aggressive yet decides to let off the gas as he's in the most important series of his life (at that time)?

[kennethgriffin]

That's why it will always be hard for me to put Bron in the same category as MJ. How we choked that badly is still a mystery to me. But, also gotta give him a lot of credit for coming back from that.


it was the only way lebron could steal the heat from wade

had wade won finals mvp then lebron would have been turned into the sidekick

[fpliii]

It's both.

Its' basketball reasons and it's about the pressure overwhelming him.

To act like it's all or nothing is silly. Cuban is right about a lot of what he says, but he's also wrong to pretend like pressure and expectations don't impact results as well.

These are not robots out there....when the game is on the line...that pressure impacts players in different ways. You see great ft shooters miss free throws all the time in pressure situations. You see great players like Kobe go 6 of 24 in the biggest game of his career.

In this series alone you saw Dirk go 9 of 27 in the final game as he was clearly jacked up for the game and it threw him off as he missed like 11 of his first 12 shots and 9 of them were wide open.

To ignore the psychology behind the game is just as bad as pretending like the opponent has no impact on how a player plays.

It is not hard. It's both...
Never said/suggested that pressure in high-leverage situations doesn't exist, but it's drastically overstated. It's definitely not a 50-50 split, and certainly not the 95-5 split an outside observer would believe it is from reading this forum.

The psychology certainly exists, but nowhere near to the extent that is being suggested. So much of what goes on is due to practice/repetition, and schemes/gameplanning. These are professionals. Yes, they're humans, but they're still experts in their field.

[DMAVS41]

definitely understand that position and it's a perfectly fine thought...but it leaves no explanation to Lebron's 3-series prior to the Finals in being aggressive and all of a sudden he hit's the Finals and is completely the opposite and passive? doesn't add up, even the whole season he was aggressive yet decides to let off the gas as he's in the most important series of his life (at that time)?

It's not really a mystery...

1. The Mavs entire game plan was to force Lebron into becoming more of a passer. We had the defenders and team iq to do this. We shaded his side of the court to prevent the drives...and opened up the rest of the court for his teammates to be open...and this played into Lebron usually making the right basketball play (which he did)...it's just that that is what the Mavs wanted.

2. Lebron probably was running low on gas. He had just played a long season with more scrutiny than any player in history had probably ever dealt with. And while after the slow start they were great and dominated the East playoffs....they weren't easy games. The Celtics and Bulls were tough teams and made them work hard. The Bulls series had each game come down to the wire...that is physically and mentally draining.

3. Lebron lost a bit of confidence in his jumper at the worst time...and because he had the luxury of having a true superstar and great 3rd guy...he deferred more than he probably should have and then that took himself out of the series a bit more than it should have.

4. All the pressure from the decision to the claims about winning 7 plus titles were clearly weighing on him and after the game 2 collapse loss....it was too much for him to carry. It impacted his play on both ends and Lebron couldn't handle everyone in the world hoping he fails and fails in an embarrassing way.


It's no mystery. The Mavs had the players and smarts to play a style of defense that gives Lebron problems. And then had the ability to take advantage of some things the Heat liked to do defensively....and then Lebron himself has clearly impacted by a long season and the enormous pressure he was under.

[fpliii]

definitely understand that position and it's a perfectly fine thought...but it leaves no explanation to Lebron's 3-series prior to the Finals in being aggressive and all of a sudden he hit's the Finals and is completely the opposite and passive? doesn't add up, even the whole season he was aggressive yet decides to let off the gas as he's in the most important series of his life (at that time)?
It's tough to be aggressive when easy baskets are being taken away from you. Remove the drive, and if you can't create a shot (in the post or midrange) when tough playoff defenses aren't allowing the drive, transition baskets, or other shots that or normally there, your halfcourt scoring ability will be exposed.

Also, from link I posted:
[QUOTE]Cuban: You

[r15mohd]

He can get the 5 points...but you have to factor in the 4% or more TS drop. You can't just add 5 points without talking about how less efficient he was.

So again...you give the Mavs no credit for causing Lebron to play passive. You are giving the Mavs credit only for taking advantage of Lebron playing that way.

I completely disagree...but even if that were the case and the Mavs deserve not credit for causing it...then we still are better than the Spurs because we did take advantage of it and the Spurs didn't.

Lebron wasn't passive through the first 3 qtrs of game 6? When he was 3 of 12 from the field and in ghost mode? A championship team stomps the life out of the Heat in that moment....so by your own words even without giving the Mavs any credit for causing it...they at least took advantage of it and the Spurs did not.

Therefore the Mavs deserve more credit than the Spurs which is another way of saying we were just clearly better (which is obvious to anyone watching the playoffs or finals that year)....

So if the 13 Heat should have lost to an inferior Spurs team...why would the 13 Heat beat a superior Mavs team that you just said could have taken advantage of Lebron/Wade going ghost mode at times?



you admittingly said Lebron wasn't as passive in the Spurs series as he was in the Mavs series in previous posts, yet want me to explain why the Spurs didn't take advantage of him being passive in their series...:facepalm

[pastis]

Just look at the teams.

Dirk was clearly the best player on either the Spurs or Mavs;

Terry was way better than Parker.
Marion was 90% as good as Leonard.
Kidd was better than Manu.
Chandler was way better than Splitter.

Green was great the first half of the series...but in the last 2 games went 2 of 19 from the field.

Barea and Stevenson really came through in big moments.

That Mavs team was just better than the Spurs...especially vs the Heat. We had the clear best player that caused huge issues for the Heat with and without the ball. Our 2nd best player was easily better than the Spurs 2nd best player...and then we had our role players step up in key moments/games to put the Heat away while the likes of Manu/Green/Parker crumbled in the most important moments...going a combined 8 of 35 from the field in game 6. Meanwhile...Terry/Kidd/Barea went a combined 20 of 32 in the deciding game 6.

Mavs were just better.

Terry: 32,6 0,478 0,442 0,843 1.9 3.2 1.2 0,1 17,5

Parker: 36.4 .458 .355 .777 3.2 7.0 1.1 .1 20.6

kidd: 35.4 .398 .374 .800 4.5 7.3 1.9 .5 9.3

manu: 26.7 .399 .302 .738 3.7 5.0 1.1 .3 11.5

:biggums:

[DMAVS41]

Never said/suggested that pressure in high-leverage situations doesn't exist, but it's drastically overstated. It's definitely not a 50-50 split, and certainly not the 95-5 split an outside observer would believe it is from reading this forum.

The psychology certainly exists, but nowhere near to the extent that is being suggested. So much of what goes on is due to practice/repetition, and schemes/gameplanning. These are professionals. Yes, they're humans, but they're still experts in their field.

Sure...I certainly don't think it's 50/50.

However, you also have to make room for a player just not playing well. It happens all the time. Sometimes great players don't play as well as they normally would under the same situations. It happens.

I just kind of posted this above, but I'll do a shorter version;

1. The Mavs guarded Lebron in a way that made him into a passer...and took away his drives...which in turn makes Lebron more likely to either pass or not take a shot because he's not in a comfortable flow. So much of Lebron's game is based on getting to the rim and then getting the shot going. The Mavs knew this and took away the drives and forced him into a shooter/passer

2. Lebron hit a shooting slump in the finals and was probably running low on gas after a long season

3. The enormous pressure of the decision, the "not 5" titles comments, and the world hoping he loses clearly impacted his game.

It's some combination of the above. I tend to give the Mavs less credit than most Mavs fans, but I don't really care much about it.

The point is that it isn't some mystery. We all know what happened...


But again though...Lebron played very similarly throughout the 13 finals through the first 5.75 games...and although he was a bit more aggressive...that can easily be explained by Wade/Bosh being much worse than they were in 11 so he had no choice to defer.

Clearly Lebron has a part of his game in which if he gets into one of those poor shooting rhythms...he can be taken out of games by certain teams.

[DMAVS41]

Terry: 32,6 0,478 0,442 0,843 1.9 3.2 1.2 0,1 17,5

Parker: 36.4 .458 .355 .777 3.2 7.0 1.1 .1 20.6

kidd: 35.4 .398 .374 .800 4.5 7.3 1.9 .5 9.3

manu: 26.7 .399 .302 .738 3.7 5.0 1.1 .3 11.5

:biggums:

I was talking about the finals...

[DMAVS41]

you admittingly said Lebron wasn't as passive in the Spurs series as he was in the Mavs series in previous posts, yet want me to explain why the Spurs didn't take advantage of him being passive in their series...:facepalm

As passive and not passive at all are different things.

And that is just noise.

Lebron was no better overall through the first 6 games...

And certainly he was horrible in game 6 up until the 4th...and the Spurs didn't take advantage of that. The Mavs would have...and did when they played him under similar circumstances.

The 11 Mavs were not going to lose a closeout game against the Heat in which Lebron went 3 of 12 through the first 3 qtrs...it wasn't happening.

And I'd still like to know how the Heat are able to go small and stop Dirk at the same time with the 13 team...could you please explain to me how that is happening?

[pastis]

what is the discussion about?

heatstans really thibking its about lebron weakness and not about the strength of the mavs. oh man, lebron was taking out of the game like a elementary school-kid. tried hard but failed

[fpliii]

Sure...I certainly don't think it's 50/50.

However, you also have to make room for a player just not playing well. It happens all the time. Sometimes great players don't play as well as they normally would under the same situations. It happens.

I just kind of posted this above, but I'll do a shorter version;

1. The Mavs guarded Lebron in a way that made him into a passer...and took away his drives...which in turn makes Lebron more likely to either pass or not take a shot because he's not in a comfortable flow. So much of Lebron's game is based on getting to the rim and then getting the shot going. The Mavs knew this and took away the drives and forced him into a shooter/passer

2. Lebron hit a shooting slump in the finals and was probably running low on gas after a long season

3. The enormous pressure of the decision, the "not 5" titles comments, and the world hoping he loses clearly impacted his game.

It's some combination of the above. I tend to give the Mavs less credit than most Mavs fans, but I don't really care much about it.

The point is that it isn't some mystery. We all know what happened...


But again though...Lebron played very similarly throughout the 13 finals through the first 5.75 games...and although he was a bit more aggressive...that can easily be explained by Wade/Bosh being much worse than they were in 11 so he had no choice to defer.

Clearly Lebron has a part of his game in which if he gets into one of those poor shooting rhythms...he can be taken out of games by certain teams.
I do think he's less likely to get into said ruts now because he has the post game to fall back upon (which he's had since 2012, and didn't in 2011). But as you said, if he gets into a poor shooting rhythm, he's lost confidence in his jumper, and has passed up open shots (like he did most of last year's Finals).

This year he hasn't shot as well as he did last year, but he doesn't seem afraid to take jumpers even if his shot isn't falling. Since a rematch with the Spurs seems inevitable, I guess we'll see if:

1) They try to play him the same way.
2) If they do play him the same way, if he takes jumpers conceded by the defense from the get-go.

[chocolatethunder]

LeBron kinda beat himself, got much better with his jumper from there on AND the Mavs were a GREAT defensive team with Marion, DPOY Chandler ANd Kidd starting.
all ELITE defenders:confusedshrug:
Kidd was far from an elite defender when they won. Dirk went off though.

[Dresta]

If that were the case, then we would possibly be seeing Miami going for their 4th straight title and James his 4th straight Finals MVP.

Instead, Wade wanted to be the man in the 2011 Finals.
Another myth made up by Bron stans. Wade did not do anything on the court different from what he had been doing the rest of the season (except play better). His USG% was lower in that finals series than it was in both the 2011 and the 2011/2012 regular season. It was barely even higher than his usage even during the 2012/13 regular season, when he had taken a clear backseat to Lebron.

Yet apparently using less possessions than usual, and putting up superior numbers with less possessions, is 'wanting to be the man.'

Again: Wade did nothing in the finals different to what he had been doing the whole regular season and playoffs, and it worked pretty damn well right up to the point Lebron completely vanished in a game that would've put Miami up 3-1, and which they lost by 3 points.

It was a classic sporting choke: freezing on the brink of victory is something that has happened to athletes fairly frequently. It was almost a textbook example. You've got to give Bron props for the way he bounced back, and especially that performance in game 6 against the Celtics which was one of the best performances under extreme pressure i've ever seen, but let's not deny reality and try to revise history in such a deplorable manner. He choked. END OF STORY.

[Ai2death]

Spurs were one shot away, it's not like they had no chance

[pauk]

Its not the Mavs that was the problem (well, not biggest problem), the biggest problem was the offensive chemistry between Lebron/Wade especially in that series, that year Miami's offense was basically "my turn/your turn"... whoever had it going was going to get the ball while the other just stands there... that is what killed the Miami in 2011 and that is what caused Lebron to average only 14 FGA overall (the least FGA he ever averaged in any of his series by far).... Everybody love to just call it a choke, but the guy didnt even try, its not like he shot bad or something, its that he DIDNT shoot at all... for him to have produced in that series he would had to demand the ball away from Wade and take things upon his own hands.... which is what he did the next season mostly because Wade officially went: "For us to win i will need to take the backseat, Lebron is our best player"

Wade recognised the problem, realising that for them to win the ball had to go through the hands from the best player and unselfishly gave Lebron the green light the following year.... there is no excuse for what happened to Lebron in that series, yes it was bad, but there was a reason behind why it happened....

[Cone]

so much excuses. the heat were flat out dominating their way to the finals. so all of a sudden their offense sucks, and they werent a good team?

yall heat fans sound like laker fans when the mavs swept them. "gasol sucks :cry:" "shannon brown fvcked gasols wife :cry:" "but but but, fatigue! :cry:"

give the dallas mavericks some credit and move on.

[r15mohd]

so much excuses. the heat were flat out dominating their way to the finals. so all of a sudden their offense sucks, and they werent a good team?

yall heat fans sound like laker fans when the mavs swept them. "gasol sucks :cry:" "shannon brown fvcked gasols wife :cry:" "but but but, fatigue! :cry:"

give the dallas mavericks some credit and move on.


what exactly are we giving them credit for...because even to this day, it isn't clear-cut that the Mavs proved to be the factor in Lebron's absence that series. Cuban can say they did this and did that, great notion a year later in that they basically "practiced" for Lebron since the pre-season. :rolleyes: the Celtics tried many similar strategies that same playoffs and it burned them with Wade going off and Lebron still getting his 27-28ppg. Are we supposed to believe that the Mavs had better defensive schematics over Doc Rivers and the Celtics? :no:

Dallas gets the credit for exposing the weakness/absence and taking advantage of it in winning the series...albeit with Lebron in la-la land, the games remained close to a degree tho. bottom-line is Lebron gifted the Mavs the title by playing passive, not that the Mavs beat the Heat and shut down Lebron. to believe the latter is completely delusional IMO.

[r15mohd]

Another myth made up by Bron stans. Wade did not do anything on the court different from what he had been doing the rest of the season (except play better). His USG% was lower in that finals series than it was in both the 2011 and the 2011/2012 regular season. It was barely even higher than his usage even during the 2012/13 regular season, when he had taken a clear backseat to Lebron.

Yet apparently using less possessions than usual, and putting up superior numbers with less possessions, is 'wanting to be the man.'

Again: Wade did nothing in the finals different to what he had been doing the whole regular season and playoffs, and it worked pretty damn well right up to the point Lebron completely vanished in a game that would've put Miami up 3-1, and which they lost by 3 points.

It was a classic sporting choke: freezing on the brink of victory is something that has happened to athletes fairly frequently. It was almost a textbook example. You've got to give Bron props for the way he bounced back, and especially that performance in game 6 against the Celtics which was one of the best performances under extreme pressure i've ever seen, but let's not deny reality and try to revise history in such a deplorable manner. He choked. END OF STORY.


how is it a myth if you can't prove its validity or not? pretty justifiable that Lebron turned off the engine, I believe you even highlighted this in games 2 and 4 of the series where he just vanished. sure Wade's usage, as you highlight above, remained the same but what about Lebron...how do you go from complete aggressor in 3 straight series to becoming a disappearing act...and in all 6 games? by Lebron's standards, it is unheard of...he's rarely gone 2-games with inconsistent play/adjustments throughout his career. to believe he was shut down by an opposition he's already beaten and dominated in years past for such a lengthy stretch is pretty absurd.

label it what you want...disappeared, choke, etc...it was his own doing, not the Mavs defenses undoing of his ability.

[Dresta]

how is it a myth if you can't prove its validity or not? pretty justifiable that Lebron turned off the engine, I believe you even highlighted this in games 2 and 4 of the series where he just vanished. sure Wade's usage, as you highlight above, remained the same but what about Lebron...how do you go from complete aggressor in 3 straight series to becoming a disappearing act...and in all 6 games? by Lebron's standards, it is unheard of...he's rarely gone 2-games with inconsistent play/adjustments throughout his career. to believe he was shut down by an opposition he's already beaten and dominated in years past for such a lengthy stretch is pretty absurd.

label it what you want...disappeared, choke, etc...it was his own doing, not the Mavs defenses undoing of his ability.
I don't know what you are saying here. You are basically saying exactly what i said: Wade didn't do anything different from the Celtics series which he dominated and that the Heat won 4-1, he in fact used up fewer possessions; so to say his taking over the offense from Lebron against the Mavs was the reason Lebron went missing, and hence the reason the Heat lost, is an unsubstantiated myth, that runs contrary to the facts of how the rest of the playoffs played out.

The point i was making was that it was Lebron's doing, so i don't know why you quoted me and replied as if what you were saying contradicted me because i agree.

[r15mohd]

I don't know what you are saying here. You are basically saying exactly what i said: Wade didn't do anything different from the Celtics series which he dominated and that the Heat won 4-1, he in fact used up fewer possessions; so to say his taking over the offense from Lebron against the Mavs was the reason Lebron went missing, and hence the reason the Heat lost, is an unsubstantiated myth, that runs contrary to the facts of how the rest of the playoffs played out.

The point i was making was that it was Lebron's doing, so i don't know why you quoted me and replied as if what you were saying contradicted me because i agree.


My apologies if I'm misquoting...you noted it being a myth the Wade wanted to be "the man" and my response was indicating that it could be true in giving Wade a last hoorah as "the man" in Lebron going absent

Anyhoo...we're good :rockon:

[Dresta]

My apologies if I'm misquoting...you noted it being a myth the Wade wanted to be "the man" and my response was indicating that it could be true in giving Wade a last hoorah as "the man" in Lebron going absent

Anyhoo...we're good :rockon:
I don't know whether he wanted to be 'the man' or not, but the myth i was referring to was that his wanting to be the man is what caused Lebron to disappear, seeing as him taking a higher proportion of shots against a better defensive team in Boston did nothing to stop Lebron from having an excellent series, hence why Miami won 4-1.

It begs the question of why did he disappear against an inferior defensive team when he managed just fine against an elite one in similar circumstances earlier in the playoffs.