Small forwards other than Lebron or Bird with a case as being "better" than Baylor?

[CavaliersFTW]

Team success aside for this discussion, so strictly as pure talent and basketball minds, which small forwards other than Lebron or Bird have a legitimate case as being as good or better basketball players than Elgin Baylor? Give some reasons why, videos, excerpts, links, testimony etc all welcome. As far as I see it only two others can be compared with Elgin outside of Lebron and Bird, and that would be Dr. J and Rick Barry. I don't think guys like Havlicek, Worthy, or Pippen were as good, regardless of their resume.

[rlsmooth775]

Team success aside for this discussion, so strictly as pure talent and basketball minds, which small forwards other than Lebron or Bird have a legitimate case as being as good or better basketball players than Elgin Baylor? Give some reasons why, videos, excerpts, links, testimony etc all welcome. As far as I see it only two others can be compared with Elgin outside of Lebron and Bird, and that would be Dr. J and Rick Barry. I don't think guys like Havlicek, Worthy, or Pippen were as good, regardless of their resume.

You already said it

[Akrazotile]

Ariza and Artest.

[MrC1991]

lmao @ Ariza and Artest.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Terms of peak(s) as an overall player:

1. Bird
2. Lebron
3. Erving
4. Baylor
.....
(Durant got to prove himself more to climb up there right now, he's still young though)


Careers, considering everything:

1. Bird
2. Lebron
3. Erving
4. Hondo
5. Baylor
6. Barry
7. Pippen
....

[inclinerator]

carmelo anthony

[The-Legend-24]

Pippen. The real leader/alpha of those bulls teams.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Dr J

[CavaliersFTW]

carmelo anthony
How many things would you say Carmelo is better at on the floor than Baylor, and by how much?

[Legends66NBA7]

Has Kevin Durant been mentioned yet ?

If not, he's definitely got more than a case.

[JohnFreeman]

Pippen? Worthy?

[CavaliersFTW]

Has Kevin Durant been mentioned yet ?

If not, he's definitely got more than a case.
Nope, he hasn't, you can be the first to state his case

[CavaliersFTW]

Pippen? Worthy?
I disagree there, Baylor passed and rebounded better than Worthy and scored and rebounded better than Pippen

[iamgine]

Adjusting for pace and minutes, Baylor doesn't seem all that good.

[inclinerator]

lou deng would be a good comparison if baylor was transported to this era

[CavaliersFTW]

Adjusting for pace and minutes, Baylor doesn't seem all that good.
If only you knew what you were doing when making any so-called 'adjustments'

[CavaliersFTW]

lou deng would be a good comparison if baylor was transported to this era
Baylor could drop 60 and grab 10 boards on Deng, Deng is no better than Satch Sanders and Satch got lit up by Baylor :oldlol:

[iamgine]

If only you knew what you were doing when making any so-called 'adjustments'
of course

[JohnFreeman]

Dantley? English? Mullins?

[The_Pharcyde]

Baylor could drop 60 and grab 10 boards on Deng, Deng is no better than Satch Sanders and Satch got lit up by Baylor :oldlol:

Hahahaha my man said luol deng is no better than satch sanders!!!

[sammichoffate]

Elgin Baylor dropped 71 and was a monster, even though he didn't win a ring. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone other than Lebron and Bird who match up to that. I will say that Pierce does deserve an honorable mention.

[Lebronxrings]

Carmelo anthony

[Pushxx]

I consider Dr. J and Hondo better than Baylor all-time.

Hondo remains one of the most underrated pro athletes in sports history.

[CavaliersFTW]

I consider Dr. J and Hondo better than Baylor all-time.

Hondo remains one of the most underrated pro athletes in sports history.
No one that I'm aware of thought Hondo was a better player than Elgin when they played though, not even Bill Russell, whom has stated before his all-time two starting forwards are Bird and Baylor. I'm not talking about resume comparisons here I'm just speaking one's ability to play the game of basketball. If you still think Havlicek was a better player than Baylor, what do you feel made him a better player?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Jim Pollard

[fpliii]

No one that I'm aware of thought Hondo was a better player than Elgin when they played though, not even Bill Russell, whom has stated before his all-time two starting forwards are Bird and Baylor. I'm not talking about resume comparisons here I'm just speaking one's ability to play the game of basketball. If you still think Havlicek was a better player than Baylor, what do you feel made him a better player?
I think any argument has to be on the basis of defense/longevity.

I uploaded this folder of articles awhile ago:

http://www37.zippyshare.com/v/38124148/file.html

Baylor seemed to be getting some legit best player in the game talk in his day. Matchups vs Oscar were a huge deal.

Bird and LeBron are obvious choices. I think with Dr. J, it's a tough balance, since Baylor was likely better at creating his shot in the half court (though Erving was much better as a defender, underrated on that end). I haven't watched much of Barry, but he could conceivably be ahead of Baylor and way up there.

I'm not as high on Scottie as I used to be, mostly because I'm valuing half-court scoring ability a lot more (though he was a tremendous passer and great positional ball-handler), on top of the fact that I've watched a lot of first threepeat Bulls. I started watching in 92-93, so I missed a lot of peak Jordan, but I now think he was possibly the better defender of the two (at the least equal). I need to watch more tape, though.

Worthy was very talented, not sure if I'd put him in this class though.

[Kblaze8855]

Baylor could drop 60 and grab 10 boards on Deng, Deng is no better than Satch Sanders and Satch got lit up by Baylor :oldlol:

Satch played one on one even if Baylor had 16 straight on him. They just were not as concerned about being killed by one player back then. Satch with a 60s gameplan would be easier to score on than Deng in Thibs.

[Dr.J4ever]

Julius Erving, of course. And I'm not even conceding Bird is better than Doc. Bird was a great, great player, but if Doc had Parish and Mchale in his front line during the 80s, and Bird had to play the 1st half of his career with Daryl Dawkins, Steve Mix, and Caldwell Jones, NBA Titles would be reversed.

Of course Doc also had his spectacular ABA run with unbelievable stats. So there.

[Pushxx]

No one that I'm aware of thought Hondo was a better player than Elgin when they played though, not even Bill Russell, whom has stated before his all-time two starting forwards are Bird and Baylor. I'm not talking about resume comparisons here I'm just speaking one's ability to play the game of basketball. If you still think Havlicek was a better player than Baylor, what do you feel made him a better player?

Defense, passing, stamina, versatility, clutch, and other intangibles.

Havlicek spent a lot of his career molding his contribution to team needs. He did this successfully, especially when he became the #1.

I also think Jerry West complimented Baylor's weaknesses well. There's nothing wrong with that, but as a basketball player, Hondo had fewer of them which comes into play when comparing their skills and ability.

I understand most people have Baylor a bit above Havlicek, but that's part of the reason why I feel he's underrated.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Pippen. The real leader/alpha of those bulls teams.
this
Pippen is top 15 alltime, alpha on the bulls teams and maybe 5% worse than Jordan:coleman:

[Jameerthefear]

Basically anyone who didn't play in a shitty ass era like Baylor did.

[CavaliersFTW]

Satch played one on one even if Baylor had 16 straight on him. They just were not as concerned about being killed by one player back then. Satch with a 60s gameplan would be easier to score on than Deng in Thibs.
According to Satch, word around the league was never double Baylor because Baylor always found the open man and those passes were always accurate and good for two points.

[CavaliersFTW]

Defense, passing, stamina, versatility, clutch, and other intangibles.

Havlicek spent a lot of his career molding his contribution to team needs. He did this successfully, especially when he became the #1.

I also think Jerry West complimented Baylor's weaknesses well. There's nothing wrong with that, but as a basketball player, Hondo had fewer of them which comes into play when comparing their skills and ability.

I understand most people have Baylor a bit above Havlicek, but that's part of the reason why I feel he's underrated.
I counter your defense with scoring

Hondo was not a better passer than Baylor - I don't even need to counter this one.

I counter your Stamina with three things... Strength, Body Control, and Leaping ability

Hondo is not more versatile than Elgin, because of his size and athleticism Elgin could and did play any position from HS to NCAA, and could play as any guard position or any forward position at the pro level. Havlicek could also play any guard position, but at 205lbs (to Elgin's 230) he did not effectively play the larger forward position.

Clutch and other intangibles are also moot if you ask me, for every clutch play you can point out in Havliceks career I can also point momentous baskets or plays in Baylor's... Baylor's teams just never ended up winning.