The moment when a player lost his chance to become the GOAT

[rule1223]

List the defining moment in a greatest player of all time's career when he lost the chance to become the greatest of all time, heres what i think for the following players

Kobe- when he lost in 08 against the celtics
Lebron- when the heat lost to the mavs in '11, still possible if still dominates the next few years
Wade- when lebron joined his team and won mvp
Durant- still young, if he can dominate the next decade, he could be up for consideration

[buddha]

Magic - when he had gay sex

[Akrazotile]

Magic - when he had gay sex


Isiah - same thing.

[fpliii]

The correct answer for Wade is when he had his meniscus removed instead of repaired in college. I think DRose and WB both made the right call in keeping theirs; CP3 had his removed I believe.

Not that any of them had GOAT potential, but knee injuries suck.

[r15mohd]

List the defining moment in a greatest player of all time's career when he lost the chance to become the greatest of all time, heres what i think for the following players

Kobe- when he lost in 08 against the celtics
Lebron- when the heat lost to the mavs in '11, still possible if still dominates the next few years
Wade- when lebron joined his team and won mvp
Durant- still young, if he can dominate the next decade, he could be up for consideration


i'd say when he didn't make the playoff's that one year, and then lost in the 1st round the year after...GOAT players find a way out of the 1st round, for the very least, missing the playoffs is a complete EXIT for being within the discussion

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe: 2008 Finals
Solidified: 2011 WCSF

LeBron: 2010 Decision
Solidified: 2011 NBA Finals

[AnaheimLakers24]

The correct answer for Wade is when he had his meniscus removed instead of repaired in college. I think DRose and WB both made the right call in keeping theirs; CP3 had his removed I believe.

Not that any of them had GOAT potential, but knee injuries suck.
poor baby wade. only player in history to ever get injured. the wittle bwaby :(

[fpliii]

poor baby wade. only player in history to ever get injured. the wittle bwaby :(
lol

Dumb decision to have it removed though. I think with CP3 it was impossible to repair it, but I'm not sure if it was an option with Wade.

[Im so nba'd out]

kobe when he averaged 15 ppg in the 2000 finals and shaq averaged 40

[jstern]

This is something that has crossed my mind and to me a player loses their chance early in their career. You need a Jordan like level of play starting from your rookie year, going on to dominate the league.

We're talking about number 1 all time here, not just top ten all time.

And then in the Jordan comparison, the number one thing that really sticks out to me about Jordan is his mind. It's a certain mentality that you're born with. Just an intense focus, concentration, and obsession. That's really what makes Jordan the GOAT.

Out of anyone playing Lebron comes the closes to being a top 3. Just an amazing talent. Great mind, IQ, the one thing that Jordan has over him is that mind, because nobody else in any sports has it, and some of you might take that as a knock against Lebron. But to me a Lebron could be up to number 2 all time.

I really don't factor rings in all this, but talent and in game domination.

Edit: Larry bird seems to have an amazing mind, will.

[GODbe]

Although Jordan doesn't belong in the discussion for GOAT status..

Jordan - When young Kobe entered the league and manhandled him to retirement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEQ1j4O9860

[Rocketswin2013]

The correct answer for Wade is when he had his meniscus removed instead of repaired in college. I think DRose and WB both made the right call in keeping theirs; CP3 had his removed I believe.

Not that any of them had GOAT potential, but knee injuries suck.
CP3 had GOAT PG potential. :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe losing to a stacked team when he had 0 all stars on his and Vlad Rasmonovic/Luke Walton were getting major minutes was a legacy killer

:rolleyes:

[Mass Debator]

Kobe - If he would've won in 2008 or 2011, that would've been a huge legacy boost. I think his chance at GOAT ended last year. 7 rings was his only hope at being in the GOAT conversation, but that would still be questionable. I believe he patterned his game too similarly to Jordan which gave him almost no shot at GOAT. He just wasn't as efficient.

Lebron - I don't think 2011 diminished his career all that much. Now that he's captured a ring (2), he's gotta continue riding the high wave. Losing this year would be a huge blow to his career imo. If he can 4peat however, I think he'd be right there with MJ. 5 seals it for me. I personally think he'll be the 2nd best player of all time when it's all said and done.

Wade - Never had a good chance. The roster he had to work with was only for a small window. If he could've stayed healthy in 2005-2007 and won 3 rings, and for this Lebron thing to still happen, he would've had 5 rings going on 6 this year. I think he wins 1 MVP (2007) so his resume would look similar to Kobes, but he'd be viewed as the better player. Probably be right with Lebron in the rankings. Oh well, he never stayed healthy.

[KyleKong]

Kobe losing to a stacked team when he had 0 all stars on his and Vlad Rasmonovic/Luke Walton were getting major minutes was a legacy killer

:rolleyes:

And what his excuse for this?

http://lakerholicz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/karl-malone-gary-payton.jpg

[sportjames23]

Although Jordan doesn't belong in the discussion for GOAT status..

Jordan - When young Kobe entered the league and manhandled him to retirement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEQ1j4O9860


Kobe blowing a 3-1 series lead vs the Suns. His GOAT status was shit-canned right there. :oldlol:

[KyleKong]

Although Jordan doesn't belong in the discussion for GOAT status..

Jordan - When young Kobe entered the league and manhandled him to retirement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEQ1j4O9860

You've jerked off to a picture of Kobe before.

Don't lie.

[Trollsmasher]

Jordan - when he could not obtain a winning record without a HOF teammate

Solidified: '89 and '93 quits

[miles berg]

Pretty much the second Michael Jordan stepped on a NBA floor everyone else past, present, & future lost their shot. No one will ever be as good as Jordan. LeBron is the only one since Jordan to even give him a run for his $$$ but it really isn't close.

[TheMarkMadsen]

And what his excuse for this?

http://lakerholicz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/karl-malone-gary-payton.jpg

Obviously Kobe had a bad finals.

But anybody using Karl Malone & GP against Kobe obviously has no idea what they are talking about.

[GimmeThat]

most players lost their chance to exceed the standards set by Jordan the second they enter into a franchise that isn't well managed.

definitely lost their luck if they don't run into an unknown underrated assistant coach.

they are then constantly face with the obstacles of learning how to win, identifying winners, as well as a scenario/situation that could lead to winning.


the reality is that the next Lebron/Jordan/Wilt will happen
and each player really starts losing their spot in the all time starting list.


I guess, if we go by Jordan's standard, the moment the player decide not to revolutionize/set the new standards of your position and make other positions change indirectly. You have lost your chance at becoming the GOAT.

[aboss4real24]

i'd say when he didn't make the playoff's that one year, and then lost in the 1st round the year after...GOAT players find a way out of the 1st round, for the very least, missing the playoffs is a complete EXIT for being within the discussion


Like mj losing in the 1st round

[riseagainst]

lebron - when he got swept in the finals.

[jstern]

Kobe - If he would've won in 2008 or 2011, that would've been a huge legacy boost. I think his chance at GOAT ended last year. 7 rings was his only hope at being in the GOAT conversation, but that would still be questionable. I believe he patterned his game too similarly to Jordan which gave him almost no shot at GOAT. He just wasn't as efficient.

Lebron - I don't think 2011 diminished his career all that much. Now that he's captured a ring (2), he's gotta continue riding the high wave. Losing this year would be a huge blow to his career imo. If he can 4peat however, I think he'd be right there with MJ. 5 seals it for me. I personally think he'll be the 2nd best player of all time when it's all said and done.

Wade - Never had a good chance. The roster he had to work with was only for a small window. If he could've stayed healthy in 2005-2007 and won 3 rings, and for this Lebron thing to still happen, he would've had 5 rings going on 6 this year. I think he wins 1 MVP (2007) so his resume would look similar to Kobes, but he'd be viewed as the better player. Probably be right with Lebron in the rankings. Oh well, he never stayed healthy.

I really don't get arguments like these, it's so simplistic and based on team success, and superficial reasons. Circumstances and chances.

X player is not the GOAT because in the year XXXX he had a scrub team, but if by the draw of the luck he happened to have a stack team that same year, then that would have been enough for him to be GOAT, unless an even more stacked team just happened to play that year, in which case player X goes back to being out of the discussion of being GOAT.

[AnaheimLakers24]

jordan - loser without prime pip

[Soundwave]

LeBron has a chance, but his stans underestimate how far he has to go and in 5-6 years they'll be talking down retarded Wiggins fanboys or something. :lol If he wins this year, 3 titles is nice, but in 5-6 years when the shine has worn off and someone else is new "it" player, then it won't be as big of a deal. He needs 5+ as the no.1 option, really actually probably 6 or 7.

Kobe's window closed I think the day the NBA vetoed the Chris Paul deal. Without a fairly stacked team around him and father time catching up to him, that shut the window on Kobe leading the Lakers to a 6th title. 5, with 2 as the no.1 option is nothing to scoff at, but not GOAT level. Also once Miami formed the Superfriends, his days were probably always numbered.

Shaq had a chance, but he got too fat/lazy to follow through.

Hakeem's chance went out the window when he went out of the 96 playoffs like a chump.

Duncan doesn't have the repeat championships or the individual dominant stats to be GOAT.

Those are the only guys outside of Jordan that have any business even being whispered as a GOAT candidate post-1990.

[j3lademaster]

Kobe blowing a 3-1 series lead vs the Suns. His GOAT status was shit-canned right there. :oldlol:

You've jerked off to a picture of Kobe before.

Don't lie.You guys realize you're just giving a troll alt account what he wants, right?

[pauk]

If you dominate the league, being the best & most productive player, ending up with the most MVPs & the most FMVPS/Championships.... how the **** does any occasional failure (& obligatory failure because NOBODY has ever NOT failed at times) annihilate that?

Ridicilous logic....

[Magic 32]

and then lost in the 1st round the year after...GOAT players find a way out of the 1st round

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/H_wykgldWLU/hqdefault.jpg
http://static.foxsports.com/content/fscom/img/2011/06/17/061711-NBA-Best-Draft-Picks-Gallery-Kwame-Brown-JW_20110617164250247_600_400.JPG
http://cdn.nextimpulsesports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/facepalm.gif

[IllegalD]

If you dominate the league, being the best & most productive player, ending up with the most MVPs & the most FMVPS/Championships.... how the **** does any occasional failure (& obligatory failure because NOBODY has ever NOT failed at times) annihilate that?

Ridicilous logic....

LeBron will NEVER be GOAT. That boat sailed long ago. Deal with it, b*tch :lol

[pauk]

LeBron will NEVER be GOAT. That boat sailed long ago. Deal with it, b*tch :lol


...and how come you think that? Considering Lebron has been better, accomplished more than Jordan at similar timeframe he sure is on pace to be that unfortunately, doesnt mean he will, but it sure to heck doesnt mean either he doesnt have a chance.... i know you dont like it, but you will have to learn to live with that fact.... take a look at what Jordan/Lebron did compared to eachother at same timeframe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obtx9tOyZY8

[RoseCity07]

2006 Kobe: Blowing a 3-1 series lead to the Suns. Epic choke job.

[Mass Debator]

I really don't get arguments like these, it's so simplistic and based on team success, and superficial reasons. Circumstances and chances.

X player is not the GOAT because in the year XXXX he had a scrub team, but if by the draw of the luck he happened to have a stack team that same year, then that would have been enough for him to be GOAT, unless an even more stacked team just happened to play that year, in which case player X goes back to being out of the discussion of being GOAT.
Everything in life is about circumstances and chances. If Jordan gets drafted by the Timberwolves and Pippen never existed, his GOAT potential is not looking too good, right? You need the right stats, accolades, teammates, coach, franchise, story, rivals, and etc. It's involves a lot of luck and hard work. We want actual evidence...if everyone went by the eye test, it'll be too opinionated.

In the end, we all define the GOAT on our own terms. Jordan is just universally recognized as GOAT because he basically had it all. If basketball is about winning, Bill Russell should be the GOAT...

[AlphaWolf24]

When Scottie Pippen was arguably the best player in the league and led the Bull's to 55 wins while replacing the supposed GOAT with a CBA player who hadn't been in the NBA for 5 years.

seriously...how valuable is the supposed GOAT when you get replaced by a CBA journeymen and yo team only slips 2 games.

replace Kobe , Magic , Bird or Russell with a scrub and we all saw what happened....heck when Lebron is out a half the Heat fall apart.

The Bull's were still stomping people without MJ for 82 games straight.

[IllegalD]

...and how come you think that? Considering Lebron has been better, accomplished more than Jordan at similar timeframe he sure is on pace to be that unfortunately, doesnt mean he will, but it sure to heck doesnt mean either he doesnt have a chance.... i know you dont like it, but you will have to learn to live with that fact.... take a look at what Jordan/Lebron did compared to eachother at same timeframe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obtx9tOyZY8

Broke the first commandment of the Jordan Bible: Though Shall Not Lose in the Finals. TWICE. One being the biggest upset in NBA Finals history with all 3 HOFs healthy, and no excuses.

:lol @ someone who's already lost as many Finals as Kobe in his career in half the number of seasons being "GOAT".

[Magic 32]

2006 Kobe: Blowing a 3-1 series lead to the Suns. Epic choke job.

If Kwame had a brain --> brillant upset

You can hardly be more clutch without winning than Kobe was in game 6.

[Straight_Ballin]

Pretty much the second Michael Jordan stepped on a NBA floor everyone else past, present, & future lost their shot. No one will ever be as good as Jordan. LeBron is the only one since Jordan to even give him a run for his $$$ but it really isn't close.

It really isn't close. Kids can dream tho.

[Straight_Ballin]

...and how come you think that? Considering Lebron has been better, accomplished more than Jordan at similar timeframe he sure is on pace to be that unfortunately, doesnt mean he will, but it sure to heck doesnt mean either he doesnt have a chance.... i know you dont like it, but you will have to learn to live with that fact.... take a look at what Jordan/Lebron did compared to eachother at same timeframe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obtx9tOyZY8

When did Jordan lose in the finals? When did Bron ever play a team as good as the bad boy Pistons?

[pauk]

Broke the first commandment of the Jordan Bible: Though Shall Not Lose in the Finals. TWICE. One being the biggest upset in NBA Finals history with all 3 HOFs healthy, and no excuses.

:lol @ someone who's already lost as many Finals as Kobe in his career in half the number of seasons being "GOAT".

Finals? Does the rest of the Playoffs not count? Do you really think its more prestigious to lose earlier than Finals?

Do you REALLY think its more prestigious to have won LESS playoff series and LOST more playoff series? Like this for example:

Lebron:
21 Playoff Series wins
66% winning percentage

Jordan:
13 Playoff Series wins
58% winning percentage

Here is also something as simple as how both did when their backs were literally against the wall, like in Game 7's:

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/893/041/game7_original.png

Now you consider that while knowing that Lebron has more of essentially everything than Jordan had at same timeframe and voila, Lebron is literally on pace to surpass him, unfortunately....

That Lebron has failed occasionally doesnt matter a thing, THE ACCOLADES DONT GO AWAY....... but all players have failed, even Jordan.... dont get fooled by PPG like an idiot, he averaged around 27 FGA in the playoffs every time, that way he got his PPG no matter what.... he has shot bad many times and cost his team games/series that way and/or due to "choking" in the clutch and/or due to not using his teammates or whatever........ many of what you people today call "empty stats" games/series.... Lebron & Jordan specifically are different type of players, they won differently & failed differently....

You have to look at the big picture, how both did overall.... in actual context...

As it stands now Jordan is the GOAT, but Lebron has great potential to get there considering the pace at this timeframe compared to eachother... and seriously, who the hell cares if Lebron doesnt become GOAT... why MUST he? Just being one of the 10 best ever right now and probably ending up being one of the top 5 best ever when its all said and done at the very least.... is pretty good...

[Ne 1]

i'd say when he didn't make the playoff's that one year, and then lost in the 1st round the year after...GOAT players find a way out of the 1st round, for the very least, missing the playoffs is a complete EXIT for being within the discussion
The Lakers in 2005 were actually 18-15 before Kobe's injury and 24-19 total with Rudy T before he stepped down for health reasons. Also, Odom and Butler missed like 40 games that year due to injury, the whole season was a year of turmoil overall. Also, it's a miracle they even made the playoffs in '06 and '07 out West with the cast he had.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe losing to a stacked team when he had 0 all stars on his and Vlad Rasmonovic/Luke Walton were getting major minutes was a legacy killer
Stop the "woe is me" bullshit Kobe stan argument.

No one said it was a legacy killer, are you arguing Kobe is GOAT? Because that's what this thread is about. Moments where all-time, top ten caliber players removed themselves from legitimate GOAT talks with piss poor performances, or epic failures. Kobe is still firmly in the top ten. But:

2004 Finals - Just simply was disgustingly selfish gunning for individual FMVP award, clearly, and played like absolute dog shit. Lost as overwhelming favorites, just like LeBron's 2009 Cavs, LeBron's 2010 Cavs, and LeBron's 2011 Heat.

2006 1st round Game 7 - Lesser extent and not entirely his fault, but if he could've dragged that shit supporting cast past a much superior #2 seed, in the overall resume building. It would've lent itself to GOAT talks.

2008 Finals - Not great performance, yes he didn't have help facing a stacked opponent, but Lakers could've won the series or made it close but they blew a HUGE lead at home. Then the final game 6 they got blown out, Kobe played atrocious.

2010 Finals Game 7 - Not for bad shooting, that happens, but it was a chance for a GOAT legacy distinguishing argument kind of game.

2011 WCSF - Inability to even attempt at a 3 peat, played poorly, yes lacked help ... team got swept. Meanwhile LeBron is about to lead his cast to 4x Finals trips, and an attempt at a 3 peat.

LeBron / Kobe both have shot themselves in the foot for GOAT talks. LeBron's miscues are blatantly obvious, so no need to comb through in fine details. LeBron has definitely proved however he will go down ranked ahead of Kobe. He'll probably come closests among everyone in history to the throne though.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Stop the "woe is me" Kobe stan argument.

No one said it was a legacy killer, are you arguing Kobe is GOAT? Because that's what this thread is about. Moments where all-time, top ten caliber players removed themselves from legitimate GOAT talks with piss poor performances, or epic failures. Kobe is still firmly in the top ten. But:

2004 Finals - Just simply was disgustingly selfish gunning for individual FMVP award, clearly, and played like absolute dog shit. Lost as overwhelming favorites, just like LeBron's 2009 Cavs, LeBron's 2010 Cavs, and LeBron's 2011 Heat.

2006 1st round Game 7 - Lesser extent and not entirely his fault, but if he could've dragged that shit supporting cast past a much superior #2 seed, in the overall resume building. It would've lent itself to GOAT talks.

2008 Finals - Not great performance, yes he didn't have help facing a stacked opponent, but Lakers could've won the series or made it close but they blew a HUGE lead at home. Then the final game 6 they got blown out, Kobe played atrocious.

2010 Finals Game 7 - Not for bad shooting, that happens, but it was a chance for a GOAT legacy distinguishing argument kind of game.

2011 WCSF - Inability to even attempt at a 3 peat, played poorly, yes lacked help ... team got swept. Meanwhile LeBron is about to lead his cast to 4x Finals trips, and an attempt at a 3 peat.

LeBron / Kobe both have shot themselves in the foot for GOAT talks. LeBron's miscues are blatantly obvious, so no need to comb through in fine details. LeBron has definitely proved however he will go down ranked ahead of Kobe. He'll probably come closests among everyone in history to the throne though.

Nobody said Kobe was goat an nobody is talkin about Jordan's dick size so I don't know why you're so sensitive

But leading a team to a finals with no other all stars, against a team stacked with talent and losing in 6 games isn't a legacy killer that would keep somebody from being goat.

2006 again Kobe is leading a cast of scrubs against a stacke team featuring the MVP. Yeah it's disappointing they lost but nobody expected them to win the series, it's remarkable that they even won 2 games.

But if course that kind of context doesn't matter to you, the type of fierce Jordan Stan who will prop up Jordan scoring 63 in a series in which he was swept but we mock kobe for scoring 50 in a series he took to 7.

When Jordan left and was replaced with a dude who wasn't even in the nba, an the bulls still won 50+ games.. It opens the discussion to say that any all star shooting guard could lead these stacked bulls teams to the finals.

The way you talk about Jordan is as if the bulls wouldn't exist without him, when in fact they barely missed a step.. And if they had the chance to replace him with oh you know an actual nba player, or even an all sat shooting guard they make the finals without Jordan and the legacy is killed.

You're one of those Jordan stans who prop up Jordan for "never missing the playoffs" but don't mention that he made the playoffs with a LOSING RECORD multiple times.

Lets be real, Jordan doesn't have the legacy he does today w/o playing alongside one of the goat perimeter players for most of his career