Michael Jordan, The GOAT, never lost a playoff series when he had homecourt.

[russwest0]

Can we stop comparing these players like LeChoke to him already?

I'm talking to you, ESPN.

[LeBron 06]

The HCA is overrated....This is only important if they have a game 7

[DaSeba5]

I'm sure ESPN read this thread and decided to never mention LeBron again.

[Hey Yo]

Wrong site. Go to ESPN.com to complain

[dubeta]

Jordan never won a playoff series without another all star :roll:

[russwest0]

I'm sure ESPN read this thread and decided to never mention LeBron again.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

they are probably busy writing up material as if the Heat are locks to win the championship, and if the Heat lose they'll just get pissy and bash the refs again :oldlol:

[jimmy77x]

BSPN is Lebron's personal tv network, going to have to deal with the miami heat dickriding or just dont watch.

[Young X]

24-0 with HCA. 6 series wins without HCA too. GOAT.

[DaSeba5]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

they are probably busy writing up material as if the Heat are locks to win the championship, and if the Heat lose they'll just get pissy and bash the refs again :oldlol:

Even though you claim ESPN to be the Miami Heat channel, I don't watch it. It's a bunch of BS. I recommend you do the same. You'll like basketball a lot more.

[KingLeBronJames]

LeBron > Jordan. Deal with it.

[LeBron 06]

24-0 with HCA. 6 series wins without HCA too. GOAT.


It will be 5 series win without the HCA for LeBron if the heat win against the Spurs

[kamil]

The HCA is overrated....This is only important if they have a game 7

Alright.

How many times has LeBron* either lost or gone to game 7 in the finals with or without HCA?

[Unbiased_one]

What the ****?

[inclinerator]

the greatest player will win on the road

[Straight_Ballin]

Please stop mentioning Bron in the same breath as the great one already.....

[Magic 32]

Bird = 7 (1980, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1988, 1990, 1991)

Duncan = 6 (2001, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011, 2012)

Kareem = 5 (1973, 1974, 1977, 1981, 1986)

Shaq = 5 (1994, 1995, 2004, 2005, 2010)

Wilt = 5 (1961, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1973)

Oscar = 4 (1962, 1965, 1973, 1974)

Magic = 4 (1981, 1986, 1990, 1996)

Lebron = 3 (2009, 2010, 2011)

Hakeem = 2 (1985, 1987)

Kobe = 2 (2004, 2011)

Russell = 1 (1958)

MJ = 0

[Jlamb47]

Jordan > Lebron its not even a comparison yet

[f0und]

Jordan never won a playoff series without another all star :roll:

im pretty sure jordan won a couple of playoff series before pippen became an allstar

[ImKobe]

Jordan never won a playoff series without another all star :roll:

Scottie Pippen was not an all-star in the 87-88, 88-89, 90-91 season and especially the 97-98 season, when Jordan dragged his team to a three-peat in the Playoffs and took over Game 6 on the road against the Jazz while Pippen was struggling with his bad back...foh

[97 bulls]

Hmm this list tells me when these players had good enough teams to be considered favorites ... this is how they produced. Pretty staggering. I actually think this evens out the theory of quality teammates. Could this be a better gauge for GOAT bball player? I mean in some cases it isn't indicative of who the best player was on their team, or the amount they did for their respective teams. But it plays a part in judging.
I think this is the best way to make a distinction between players. This shows how well these players have done when put into what is essentially the same situation.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Bird = 7 (1980, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1988, 1990, 1991)

Duncan = 6 (2001, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011, 2012)

Kareem = 5 (1973, 1974, 1977, 1981, 1986)

Shaq = 5 (1994, 1995, 2004, 2005, 2010)

Wilt = 5 (1961, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1973)

Oscar = 4 (1962, 1965, 1973, 1974)

Magic = 4 (1981, 1986, 1990, 1996)

Lebron = 3 (2009, 2010, 2011)

Hakeem = 2 (1985, 1987)

Kobe = 2 (2004, 2011)

Russell = 1 (1958)

MJ = 0
Hmm this list tells me that when these players had good enough teams to be considered favorites ... this is how they produced. Pretty staggering. I actually think this evens out the theory of quality teammates. Could this be a better gauge for GOAT bball player? I mean in some cases it isn't indicative of who the best player was on their team, or the amount they did for their respective teams. Russell was usually like the 3rd or 4th best offensive player. Ben Wallace status. But it plays a part in judging. Kobe wasn't the best player on the 2004 team, etc.

[Roundball_Rock]

Scottie Pippen was not an all-star in the 87-88, 88-89, 90-91 season and especially the 97-98 season, when Jordan dragged his team to a three-peat in the Playoffs and took over Game 6 on the road against the Jazz while Pippen was struggling with his bad back...foh

Pippen, via his defensive dominance against the #1 Utah offense, led the Bulls to 3 of their 4 wins in the 98' Finals--but it was all Mike. GOAT. :bowdown:

Pippen was not an all-star in 1998 because he missed the first half of the season. In 1991 he was acknowledged to be an all-star caliber player who was snubbed--which is why he was the third player picked for the Dream Team in 1991 behind MJ and Magic. Jordan was putting up 37/5/5 and going 40-42 and getting swept in the first round before Pippen. :roll: :roll: :roll:

MJ=5 losing seasons.
LeBron=1 losing season straight out of high school with a team that won 17 games the prior season.

MJ=2 first round sweeps.
LeBron=0 first round sweeps.

MJ=3 first round losses.
LeBron=0 first round losses.

See how things can be spun in the other direction?

LeBron would never put up 37/5/5 and go 40-42. LeBron elevates his teammates, partly by not being a ball hog.


I think this is the best way to make a distinction between players. This shows how well these players have done when put into what is essentially the same situation.

Kobe, MJ were first round losers with scrubs. LeBron was in the Finals with scrubs...

[ImKobe]

Hmm this list tells me that when these players had good enough teams to be considered favorites ... this is how they produced. Pretty staggering. I actually think this evens out the theory of quality teammates. Could this be a better gauge for GOAT bball player? I mean in some cases it isn't indicative of who the best player was on their team, or the amount they did for their respective teams. Russell was usually like the 3rd or 4th best offensive player. Ben Wallace status. But it plays a part in judging. Kobe wasn't the best player on the 2004 team, etc.

Kobe definitely had a down year in 04, but it was because of the off-court issues and he was injured during the Finals, also didn't help that the entire Lakers team was shut down in the Finals.

[imdaman99]

I cancelled Cable because I did not wanna watch ESPN anymore. Their bran knobslobbin was ridiculous.

Saves me $160 on my bill every month as well :rockon:

[LeBron 06]

Bird = 7 (1980, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1988, 1990, 1991)

Duncan = 6 (2001, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011, 2012)

Kareem = 5 (1973, 1974, 1977, 1981, 1986)

Shaq = 5 (1994, 1995, 2004, 2005, 2010)

Wilt = 5 (1961, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1973)

Oscar = 4 (1962, 1965, 1973, 1974)

Magic = 4 (1981, 1986, 1990, 1996)

Lebron = 3 (2009, 2010, 2011)

Hakeem = 2 (1985, 1987)

Kobe = 2 (2004, 2011)

Russell = 1 (1958)

MJ = 0



He has several factor to be considered...As for Duncan in 2009, Ginobili was out for the playoffs, so the spurs had no chance to win


Sometimes you can lose also even if the player have dominated

[ImKobe]

Pippen, via his defensive dominance against the #1 Utah offense, led the Bulls to 3 of their 4 wins in the 98' Finals--but it was all Mike. GOAT. :bowdown:

Pippen was not an all-star in 1998 because he missed the first half of the season. In 1991 he was acknowledged to be an all-star caliber player who was snubbed--which is why he was the third player picked for the Dream Team in 1991 behind MJ and Magic. Jordan was putting up 37/5/5 and going 40-42 and getting swept in the first round before Pippen. :roll: :roll: :roll:

MJ=5 losing seasons.
LeBron=1 losing season straight out of high school with a team that won 17 games the prior season.

MJ=2 first round sweeps.
LeBron=0 first round sweeps.

MJ=3 first round losses.
LeBron=0 first round losses.

See how things can be spun in the other direction?

LeBron would never put up 37/5/5 and go 40-42. LeBron elevates his teammates, partly by not being a ball hog.

Pippen was not an all-star in 98, period. That's what the criteria was. He was not an all-star. Pippen only had one great game in the Finals and played on limited minutes in the biggest game of the series and put up 16/7/5 on low efficiency for the series while Michael carried the team.

Pippen looked done in Game 6, Bulls lose that game and they're looking at a Game 7 on the road with Pippen potentially missing the game, Jordan elevates his game in the final minute and his last shot as a Chicago Bull is a game-winner on an NBA Finals stage.

MJ never lost with HCA, never allowed a Game 7 in the Finals and never folded in the biggest moment. Lebron is nowhere close to Michael. Would MJ put up 18 ppg in the Finals in his prime against midget Jason Terry and JJ Barea, would MJ put up 8 points in a Finals game?

Go watch some tapes and come back at me, young blood.

[Legends66NBA7]

1958, Bill Russell got injured in the Finals. Missed the last 2 games.

[97 bulls]

Pippen, via his defensive dominance against the #1 Utah offense, led the Bulls to 3 of their 4 wins in the 98' Finals--but it was all Mike. GOAT. :bowdown:

Pippen was not an all-star in 1998 because he missed the first half of the season. In 1991 he was acknowledged to be an all-star caliber player who was snubbed--which is why he was the third player picked for the Dream Team in 1991 behind MJ and Magic. Jordan was putting up 37/5/5 and going 40-42 and getting swept in the first round before Pippen. :roll: :roll: :roll:

MJ=5 losing seasons.
LeBron=1 losing season straight out of high school with a team that won 17 games the prior season.

MJ=2 first round sweeps.
LeBron=0 first round sweeps.

MJ=3 first round losses.
LeBron=0 first round losses.

See how things can be spun in the other direction?

LeBron would never put up 37/5/5 and go 40-42. LeBron elevates his teammates, partly by not being a ball hog.



Kobe, MJ were first round losers with scrubs. LeBron was in the Finals with scrubs...
I agree with your point about Pippen, but since when do we compare circle an argument around first round accomplishments?

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was not an all-star in 98, period. That's what the criteria was. He was not an all-star.

:oldlol: MJ stans resorting to semantics now.


Pippen only had one great game in the Finals

:roll: :roll: :roll: Obviously you did not watch the 98' Finals. Which "one game" was that btw?


Pippen looked done in Game 6, Bulls lose that game and they're looking at a Game 7 with Pippen potentially missing the game, Jordan elevates his game in the final minute and his last shot as a Chicago Bull is a game-winner on an NBA Finals stage.

And? Using that logic Magic "carried" Kareem to the 1980 championship.


MJ never lost with HCA, never allowed a Game 7 in the Finals and never folded in the biggest moment.

Clear GOAT! :bowdown:

It was MJ who hit that 3 in 1993 to prevent a Game 6 in Phoenix. It was MJ who, along with 4 reserve players, led the Bulls back from being down 17 to prevent a Game 7 in 1992. It was MJ who sealed the 97' Finals in Game 6 with a shot and it was MJ who got the final steal. MJ's power of mind and body control make him the clear GOAT!


Would MJ put up 18 ppg in the Finals in his prime against midget Jason Terry and JJ Barea

Plenty of great players have put up 18 ppg or so in the Finals. Magic Johnson, for one. MJ would never score 8 points because he insisted on taking 20, 25, 30 shots every night even when his shot was off. Remember when MJ shot 17% with the Bulls down 2-0 in the 93' ECF--yet still took 18 shots?

[97 bulls]

Pippen was not an all-star in 98, period. That's what the criteria was. He was not an all-star. Pippen only had one great game in the Finals and played on limited minutes in the biggest game of the series and put up 16/7/5 on low efficiency for the series while Michael carried the team.

Pippen looked done in Game 6, Bulls lose that game and they're looking at a Game 7 on the road with Pippen potentially missing the game, Jordan elevates his game in the final minute and his last shot as a Chicago Bull is a game-winner on an NBA Finals stage.

MJ never lost with HCA, never allowed a Game 7 in the Finals and never folded in the biggest moment. Lebron is nowhere close to Michael. Would MJ put up 18 ppg in the Finals in his prime against midget Jason Terry and JJ Barea, would MJ put up 8 points in a Finals game?

Go watch some tapes and come back at me, young blood.
This flat out isnt true. Pippen was having a great series until he put up that game 5 stinker. He was playing well in game six before reinjuring his back.

What Jordan did was heroic, but no need to dismiss what Pippen did. I can produce multiple writers that believed Pippen was the front runner for finals MVP. Which off course shows how well he was playing.

[Roundball_Rock]

This flat out isnt true. Pippen was having a great series until he put up that game 5 stinker. He was playing well in game six before reinjuring his back.

What Jordan did was heroic, but no need to dismiss what Pippen did. I can produce multiple writers that believed Pippen was the front runner for finals MVP. Which off course shows how well he was playing.

He obviously did not watch the 98' Finals. :lol MJ's biggest zealots on ISH often are people who have never seen him outside of Space Jam.

[Magic 32]

1958, Bill Russell got injured in the Finals. Missed the last 2 games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljpxUVqcKxs&t=6m2s

[ImKobe]

This flat out isnt true. Pippen was having a great series until he put up that game 5 stinker. He was playing well in game six before reinjuring his back.

What Jordan did was heroic, but no need to dismiss what Pippen did. I can produce multiple writers that believed Pippen was the front runner for finals MVP. Which off course shows how well he was playing.

MJ games 1-4 = 32/5/3 on 45% shooting
Pippen games 1-4 = 20/7/4 on 47% shooting, twice as many turnovers as MJ

:kobe:

MJ and Pippen were both bad in Game 5, but if Pippen at least plays like garbage and not like utter shit, Bulls win in 5. The only great game Pippen had in that series was Game 4, every other game he was worse than MJ. There's no debating that Michael was the clear cut MVP of that series through any amount of games.

MJ practically carried the Bulls to the Finals while Pippen put up role player type of production for most of the Playoffs.

[stalkerforlife]

Starting threads like this only adds fuel to the fire. Do not dignify such outlandish things as comparing Bron to MJ.

Basketball lifers know there is no comparison.

[russwest0]

Starting threads like this only adds fuel to the fire. Do not dignify such outlandish things as comparing Bron to MJ.

Basketball lifers know there is no comparison.

Agreed. Not gonna stop networks like ESPN from making stupid ass comparisons though.

[ImKobe]

He obviously did not watch the 98' Finals. :lol MJ's biggest zealots on ISH often are people who have never seen him outside of Space Jam.

I obviously have and you two are pathetic for trying to dowplay what Michael did in 98. First, he carries the Bulls to a 62-20 record with Pippen out for 38 games in the regular season and second he carries the Bulls to the Finals while Pippen plays like 2012 D-Wade, third he carries the Bulls in the last minute of a Finals game on the road and hits the game-winner while the almighty Scottie Pippen is injured.

You guys are horrible and you should be banned for this bullshit :facepalm

[Roundball_Rock]

The only great game Pippen had in that series was Game 4, every other game he was worse than MJ.

This confirms that he did not watch the series. :roll: Pippen's best game was probably Game 3, where he scored only 10 points (the only game that was a blowout in that series. Anyone who watched the series knows exactly why :bowdown: ).


First, he carries the Bulls to a 62-20 record with Pippen out for 38 games in the regular season

Yeah--he led them to a 56 win pace without Pippen--with a team that won 69 games the year before. Amazing! :rolleyes: Pippen led the Bulls to a 58 win pace in 94' without MJ--with a team that won 57 games the year before.

[ImKobe]

This confirms that he did not watch the series. :roll: Pippen's best game was probably the one he scored only 10 points. :bowdown:

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm



Yeah--he led them to a 56 win pace without Pippen--with a team that won 69 games the year before. Amazing! :rolleyes: Pippen led the Bulls to a 58 win pace in 94' without MJ--with a team that won 57 games the year before.

What happened in 95? can you give me the pace with MJ back for the last 17 games vs the games Pippen played without him that year?

[ImKobe]

Anyways, I don't see why you're trying to get at me with this Pippen bullshit, he was a great sidekick and in stretches during games -- showed up and made up for MJ's blunders. That's what teammates do. He was an exceptional player and one of the best two-way players ever, definitely one of my favorite all-time players, but it's not nearly enough to act like he was anywhere close to matching what Jordan did for those Bulls teams.

MJ still the GOAT, this "debate" is really headed nowhere, since facts are facts. Anything else is subjective.

[Roundball_Rock]

Since you did not watch your hero MJ play, here is a history lesson for you (you also don't know this but the Jazz were the #1 offense who had just swept the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in the WCF):

THE N.B.A. FINALS: At Every Turn, Jazz Finds Pippen; The Bulls' Consummate Defender Picks Apart the Pick-and-Roll
By MIKE WISE
Published: June 9, 1998


Scottie Pippen was buzzing John Stockton like an annoying gnat in the backcourt, filling the passing lanes the way Coach Jerry Sloan wishes his players would and taking a charge from Karl Malone under the basket. On the next Utah Jazz possession, Pippen caused more havoc.

''He is probably the only guy in basketball who draws offensive fouls anymore,'' Sloan said today. ''He had a ton of them last night, I think eight or nine. That was about as good a display of being able to step up and take a charge as you'll see.''

Pippen, a roving linebacker in high-tops, is using the finals to reaffirm his position as the game's most complete and chaos-inspiring defensive player. On Sunday night, he was largely responsible for the lowest scoring total in National Basketball Association history since the advent of the shot clock, when the Chicago Bulls pulverized the Jazz, 96-54, to take a two-games-to-one lead in the four-of-seven-game series.

Pippen roamed the floor, spreading his 6-foot-7-inch angular body from player to player on the Jazz roster. Twenty-six Utah turnovers and an unprecedented finals rout later, everyone wanted to know how one player could cause such disruption.

He has obliterated the criticism he once received for not being physical enough. This post-season alone, he shut down Charlotte's Glen Rice in the second round and discombobulated the Pacers' offense in the Eastern Conference finals.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html

Yet Pippen sucked that game (only 10 points :eek: and 16 year old MJ fans only understand scoring--hence why they are fans of MJ) :lol and it was all MJ. Clear GOAT! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:


There's no debating that Michael was the clear cut MVP of that series through any amount of games.

This also is laughable to anyone who watched the 98' Finals. Pippen was ahead entering Game 5, and unfortunately, got hurt that game and was a decoy in Game 6. Even then, he led the Bulls to 3 of their 4 wins.

[Nikola_]

Bird :biggums:

[ImKobe]

Since you did not watch your hero MJ play, here is a history lesson for you:

Jerry Sloan/New York Times: Scottie Pippen was buzzing John Stockton like an annoying gnat in the backcourt, filling the passing lanes the way Coach Jerry Sloan wishes his players would and taking a charge from Karl Malone under the basket. On the next Utah Jazz possession, Pippen caused more havoc.

''He is probably the only guy in basketball who draws offensive fouls anymore,'' Sloan said today. ''He had a ton of them last night, I think eight or nine. That was about as good a display of being able to step up and take a charge as you'll see.''

Pippen, a roving linebacker in high-tops, is using the finals to reaffirm his position as the game's most complete and chaos-inspiring defensive player. On Sunday night, he was largely responsible for the lowest scoring total in National Basketball Association history since the advent of the shot clock, when the Chicago Bulls pulverized the Jazz, 96-54, to take a two-games-to-one lead in the four-of-seven-game series.

Pippen roamed the floor, spreading his 6-foot-7-inch angular body from player to player on the Jazz roster. Twenty-six Utah turnovers and an unprecedented finals rout later, everyone wanted to know how one player could cause such disruption.

He has obliterated the criticism he once received for not being physical enough. This post-season alone, he shut down Charlotte's Glen Rice in the second round and discombobulated the Pacers' offense in the Eastern Conference finals.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html

Yet Pippen sucked that game:lol and it was all MJ. Clear GOAT! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

I never said Pippen sucked in that game, only that Game 4 was his best all-around game of that series. He was exceptional on the defensive end in Game 3, but Game 4 was overall his best of the series because he played well on both ends, not just defensively.

I guess you are an emotional poster and you always HAVE to be right, when in fact you're spewing shit out of your ass. Michael was just as good as Pippen in that game. Pippen was slightly better defensively, but Michael did a whole lot more in the offensive end and he led the huge run in the 2nd quarter to put the game away by halftime.

I remember that game fairly well - Jazz started off hot and Malone made his first 5 shots while Bulls couldn't buy a basket, it was a close game until MJ got hot and Bulls pulled away in the 2nd. anything that happened in the 2nd half was just piling on, Jazz gave up after the 3rd. Pippen did a great job drawing charges and his impact did not show up on the stat sheet, but you're acting like he locked down the jazz by himself and won the game for Chicago...

28/9/5 on 65%TS and 143 ORTG to me was more impressive.

[Roundball_Rock]

The story of the 98' Finals was defense, primarily because of Pippen.


There's no debating that Michael was the clear cut MVP of that series through any amount of games.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/events/1998/playoffs/news/1998/06/11/banks_suntimes/

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/13/sports/sports-of-the-times-it-s-as-much-pippen-s-fight-as-jordan-s.html

Yet it was all MJ. Clear GOAT--when he is morphed into a figure of mythology. MJ is the Paul Bunyan of basketball.


He was exceptional on the defensive end in Game 3


The only great game Pippen had in that series was Game 4

Nice backtrack. Admit that you are only looking at boxscores and that you previously were arguing Pippen had only one great game--the one where he scored the most points. I remember another MJ stan, EricForman (who probably is banned by now), making the exact same argument about the 98' Finals.


you're acting like he locked down the jazz by himself and won the game for Chicago...

I am not the New York Times' NBA writer...


Michael was just as good as Pippen in that game.

Was MJ even in the NYT article about the game?

[livinglegend]

Roundball owning people again :applause: :applause:
and exposing ImKobe

[ImKobe]

The story of the 98' Finals was defense, primarily because of Pippen.



http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/events/1998/playoffs/news/1998/06/11/banks_suntimes/

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/13/sports/sports-of-the-times-it-s-as-much-pippen-s-fight-as-jordan-s.html

Yet it was all MJ. Clear GOAT--when he is morphed into a figure of mythology. MJ is the Paul Bunyan of basketball.

you're acting like he locked down the jazz by himself and won the game for Chicago...



Nice backtrack. Admit that you are only looking at boxscores and that you previously were arguing Pippen had only one great game--the one where he scored the most points. I remember another MJ stan, EricForman (who probably is banned by now), making the exact same argument about the 98' Finals.



I am not the New York Times' NBA writer...



Was MJ even in the NYT article about the game?

So you're placing your whole argument on articles and not actual game footage, just someone else's opinion because you can not come up with your own, right?

You need to chill man. Watch the damn footage and stop acting like Michael was a non-factor and Pippen was the sole reason the Bulls won the series. You need to score more points than the other team to win the games.

And what is it that you're trying to prove here, that Pippen was a more valuable player than Michael Jordan? :oldlol:..

Pippen did a good job drawing a couple charges in one game and he did an exceptional all-around job in the next one and then went completely ghost, then got injured and it all rode on Michael to close the deal before the Bulls would face a Game 7 on the road. Last time I remember, MJ had the biggest defensive and the biggest offensive highlight of the series and he easily had the better numbers. Pippen was just a great sidekick and he will always be remembered as one while MJ is the consensus GOAT.

[ImKobe]

Roundball owning people again :applause: :applause:
and exposing ImKobe

By owning you mean supporting a Lebron stan's point of view by downplaying Michael Jordan's accomplishments and by exposing me you mean posting a few articles that support this crazy agenda about Pippen being better than Michael Jordan. This is basically what he's trying to say here.

Either he's delusional and mentally unstable or he's doing some goat-level trolling. I'm going with delusional.

[Young X]

Jordan basically never lost when he had decent supporting cast. Think about that.

In 15 seasons he had an above average supporting cast AKA a team possibly capable of winning it all 7 times and ended up with 6 rings. Besides '90 and '95 the years he lost he played with no help. When he had a chance him and his teams got the job done.

[Roundball_Rock]

Hi Eric,


So you're placing your whole argument on articles and not actual game footage, just someone else's opinion because you can not come up with your own, right?

Ever read a history book? Historians often use contemporary primary sources to provide an unbiased, respectable picture of what people were thinking then. I posted the quotes and links to other articles so posters here who did not watch the 98' Finals could learn about what was being said at the time, to counter MJ fan mythology.


Watch the damn footage and stop acting like Michael was a non-factor and Pippen was the sole reason the Bulls won the series.

I did not say MJ was a non-factor. He was the second most valuable player that series, arguably the most valuable since Pippen was a non-factor in Game 6 due to his injury (as I noted to you 3-4 years ago, Pippen had 11 rebounds and 11 assists in Game 5--something MJ fans conveniently neglect to mention :oldlol: ).


Pippen did a good job drawing a couple charges in one game and he did an exceptional all-around job in the next one

:roll: This illustrates that you did not even click on the link. You limited yourself to the quotes I cut. Pippen did more than draw charges. If you watched the 98' ECF you would know this as well.

If the claims made about MJ are accurate why the need for so much mythology around him? His actual record should suffice. :confusedshrug:


posting a few articles

Here are some more:

http://sportsillustrated.ca/basketball/nba/events/1998/playoffs/news/1998/06/08/jazz_blues/

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1998/Pippen-Everywhere-in-Bulls-Victory/id-e78d9884d3d4cfd800b81067857eb413

http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/NBA-FINALS-NOTES-Pippen-s-Dominance-Comes-From-3003947.php

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1998-06-09/sports/1998160010_1_scottie-pippen-chicago-bulls-nba

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/nba/longterm/1998/finals/articles/pippen09.htm

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110380_1_bulls-scottie-pippen-jazz-coach-jerry-sloan

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-08/sports/9806080099_1_bulls-scottie-pippen-illegal-defense

All written by LeBron stans! :mad:

[ArbitraryWater]

My god, Roundball :bowdown: :bowdown:

This dude presenting cold hard facts and evidence of MULTIPLE newspapers AT THE TIME presenting Pippen for MVP...

[ImKobe]

My god, Roundball :bowdown: :bowdown:

This dude presenting cold hard facts and evidence of MULTIPLE newspapers AT THE TIME presenting Pippen for MVP...

Yet Michael won the Finals MVP and showed up in the biggest moment while Pippen was injured. Michael won the series, period.

The only guys that are agreeing with this dude are Lebron fans.

[97 bulls]

@ ImKobe

Heres a few news clippings about Pippen being the front runner for the Finals MVP. And these are reputable sources.



http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/15/sports/the-nba-finals-pippen-s-pain-pushes-jordan-to-greatest-feat.html



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/events/1998/playoffs/news/1998/06/11/banks_suntimes/


http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all


http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone

I also went back and looked at Jordan and Pippens stats PER GAME. Mind you that theres isn't a stat for defensive impact. But I'm sure you a reasonable person and will acknowledge that Pippens was higher than Jordans.

Game 1
Jordan: 33/3/2 45%
Pippen: 21/8/6 37%

At best they were even. Jordan scored more and shot a better percentage, but Pippens defense, rebounding, and assists, levels this comparison out


Game 2
Jordan: 37/5/3 42%
Pippen: 22/6/4 54%

Again at best a wash. But id still give it to Pippen based on defensive contributions

Game 3
Jordan: 24/3/2 50%
Pippen: 10/4/4 50%
Advantage Pippen clearly when defense is considered. The Jazz had 26 TOs if I remember correct. Pippen caused at least 17. He flustered Stockton, which killed the Jazz offense. That was the most dominant defensive game I've ever seen from a wing player. The Jazz only scored 54 pts. Id say that Pippens impact was on par with any 50 pt game. Even 60.

Game 4
Jordan: 34/8/2 44%
Pippen: 28/9/5 50%

Again I will have to give the advantage to Pippen. His defense was amazing, his offense was on par with Jordans, and he outrebounded him. Along with having more assist.

Before game five, Pippens back began giving him problems. He was taking shots in preparation. Which is why he played bad.

Then game six happened. In which his back finally gave out.

[Roundball_Rock]

The only guys that are agreeing with this dude are Lebron fans.


Michael won the series, period.

:oldlol: I gave links from the primary New York, Chicago, Washington, Philadelphia, Baltimore, San Francisco, Salt Lake City newspapers along with Sports Illustrated. They were in on the LeBron conspiracy in 1998? :confusedshrug: 97_Bulls is a LeBron fan? News to me, and I have posted with him numerous times over the years. The guy is a Bulls fan first who reveres both Pippen and MJ.

This is exactly why historians use primary sources. It is hard to accuse them of bias when they are quoting what major newspapers said at the time (which is why historians almost exclusively quote from major newspapers, unless a local paper had special insight on whatever is being discussed on that page). Yeah, you can cherry pick a bit but a general rule is the major papers cover the same stories, usually with the same basic angle.


Heres a few news clippings about Pippen being the front runner for the Finals MVP. And these are reputable sources.



http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/15/sp...test-feat.html



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...anks_suntimes/


http://www.deseretnews.com/article/6...VP.html?pg=all


http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...ls-karl-malone

I also went back and looked at Jordan and Pippens stats PER GAME. Mind you that theres isn't a stat for defensive impact. But I'm sure you a reasonable person and will acknowledge that Pippens was higher than Jordans.

Game 1
Jordan: 33/3/2 45%
Pippen: 21/8/6 37%

At best they were even. Jordan scored more and shot a better percentage, but Pippens defense, rebounding, and assists, levels this comparison out


Game 2
Jordan: 37/5/3 42%
Pippen: 22/6/4 54%

Again at best a wash. But id still give it to Pippen based on defensive contributions

Game 3
Jordan: 24/3/2 50%
Pippen: 10/4/4 50%
Advantage Pippen clearly when defense is considered. The Jazz had 26 TOs if I remember correct. Pippen caused at least 17. He flustered Stockton, which killed the Jazz offense. That was the most dominant defensive game I've ever seen from a wing player. The Jazz only scored 54 pts. Id say that Pippens impact was on par with any 50 pt game. Even 60.

Game 4
Jordan: 34/8/2 44%
Pippen: 28/9/5 50%

Again I will have to give the advantage to Pippen. His defense was amazing, his offense was on par with Jordans, and he outrebounded him. Along with having more assist.

Before game five, Pippens back began giving him problems. He was taking shots in preparation. Which is why he played bad.

Then game six happened. In which his back finally gave out.

:applause:

The fact is Pippen led the Bulls to 3 of their 4 98' Finals wins. That certainly was the general view at the time. Yet you have MJ fans acting as if MJ won it by himself in the 2010's. :oldlol:

[HoopsFanNumero1]

What was Jordan's record without Pippen?

[Beastmode88]

Jordan never won a playoff series without another all star :roll:

Since when does playoff matters when you don't win the ring? For example you can get to the finals and just choke it away. :rolleyes:

[Roundball_Rock]

What was Jordan's record without Pippen?

179-190.

Jordan without Pippen


Regular season

38-44 (46%)
9-9 (50%)
40-42 (49%)
24-11 (69%)
30-30 (50%)
37-45 (45%)

Total: 178-181 (49.6%)

Playoffs

1-3
0-3
0-3
Missed playoffs
Missed playoffs

[poido123]

:oldlol: MJ stans resorting to semantics now.



:roll: :roll: :roll: Obviously you did not watch the 98' Finals. Which "one game" was that btw?



And? Using that logic Magic "carried" Kareem to the 1980 championship.



Clear GOAT! :bowdown:

It was MJ who hit that 3 in 1993 to prevent a Game 6 in Phoenix. It was MJ who, along with 4 reserve players, led the Bulls back from being down 17 to prevent a Game 7 in 1992. It was MJ who sealed the 97' Finals in Game 6 with a shot and it was MJ who got the final steal. MJ's power of mind and body control make him the clear GOAT!



Plenty of great players have put up 18 ppg or so in the Finals. Magic Johnson, for one. MJ would never score 8 points because he insisted on taking 20, 25, 30 shots every night even when his shot was off. Remember when MJ shot 17% with the Bulls down 2-0 in the 93' ECF--yet still took 18 shots?



Aren't you that Barkley fan? Wasn't Jordan beating up on Barkley led teams back in the day?

You are clearly reaching on so many levels dude. Bringing up first round losses as an argument?

Don't bother with this guy, unless you enjoy having your head fcked. :facepalm

[ImKobe]

179-190.

Jordan without Pippen


Regular season

38-44 (46%)
9-9 (50%)
40-42 (49%)
24-11 (69%)
30-30 (50%)
37-45 (45%)

Total: 178-181 (49.6%)

Playoffs

1-3
0-3
0-3
Missed playoffs
Missed playoffs

numbers are worthless without context

[ImKobe]

:oldlol: I gave links from the primary New York, Chicago, Washington, Philadelphia, Baltimore, San Francisco, Salt Lake City newspapers along with Sports Illustrated. They were in on the LeBron conspiracy in 1998? :confusedshrug: 97_Bulls is a LeBron fan? News to me, and I have posted with him numerous times over the years. The guy is a Bulls fan first who reveres both Pippen and MJ.

This is exactly why historians use primary sources. It is hard to accuse them of bias when they are quoting what major newspapers said at the time (which is why historians almost exclusively quote from major newspapers, unless a local paper had special insight on whatever is being discussed on that page). Yeah, you can cherry pick a bit but a general rule is the major papers cover the same stories, usually with the same basic angle.



:applause:

The fact is Pippen led the Bulls to 3 of their 4 98' Finals wins. That certainly was the general view at the time. Yet you have MJ fans acting as if MJ won it by himself in the 2010's. :oldlol:

MJ won THE game of the series while Pippen was injured, though he did make a couple plays in the 4th while hobbling

just watch this shit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSlSRzml_u8#t=4327

[jzek]

What's Kobe's record?

[nba_55]

Aren't you that Barkley fan? Wasn't Jordan beating up on Barkley led teams back in the day?

You are clearly reaching on so many levels dude. Bringing up first round losses as an argument?

Don't bother with this guy, unless you enjoy having your head fcked. :facepalm

First round losses are worse than finals losses. You actually have to win more games to get to the finals...in case you didn't know.

[Beastmode88]

179-190.

Jordan without Pippen


Regular season

38-44 (46%)
9-9 (50%)
40-42 (49%)
24-11 (69%)
30-30 (50%)
37-45 (45%)

Total: 178-181 (49.6%)

Playoffs

1-3
0-3
0-3
Missed playoffs
Missed playoffs

Had to play vs the bad boys.... :facepalm My god if Lebron had to play the bad boys he would destroyed and probably choke even harder than he did in 2011. The league got soft as fcuk after all the fights during the early 2000s.

[ImKobe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSlSRzml_u8#t=5248

y'all would imagine Lebron pull this shit off? I don't think so.

[Solefade]

damn roundball really knows his Bulls history :applause:

[ImKobe]

damn roundball really knows his Bulls history :applause:

He sure knows how to google "scottie pippen 1998 finals mvp" :oldlol:

[poido123]

First round losses are worse than finals losses. You actually have to win more games to get to the finals...in case you didn't know.


Thanks, will read again for future education.

How could I possibly could do without you :rolleyes:

When you are talking players careers, you talk about titles no matter how you spin it. Nobody remembers or talks about when the team lost, they talk about if they made the finals and if they won those titles.

What difference does it make whether you lost in the first round or finals? Still no title. That's why players play the game for right?

[nba_55]

Had to play vs the bad boys.... :facepalm My god if Lebron had to play the bad boys he would destroyed and probably choke even harder than he did in 2011. The league got soft as fcuk after all the fights during the early 2000s.

How about posting the actual facts instead of the ''if, should, would,could''?

[Sarcastic]

People are arguing 16ppg Pippen was FMVP over 33ppg Jordan?


http://media.giphy.com/media/Z9OGuQyrfHAE8/giphy.gif












:facepalm

[poido123]

How about posting the actual facts instead of the ''if, should, would,could''?


How long have you been lurking?

Literally the first time I've seen you post. Should of stayed lurking :no:

[ImKobe]

Pippen was a loser without Jordan. Couldn't win with Hakeem & Barkley(Kobe embarrassed him in 99), couldn't win with Sheed & Sabonis(Kobe took his soul with that crossover in 2000).

[nba_55]

Thanks, will read again for future education.

How could I possibly could do without you :rolleyes:

When you are talking players careers, you talk about titles no matter how you spin it. Nobody remembers or talks about when the team lost, they talk about if they made the finals and if they won those titles.

What difference does it make whether you lost in the first round or finals? Still no title. That's why players play the game for right?

So we throw in the toilet all the accomplishments that dont involve winning the title?
If a player puts stats such as 50 ppg, 10 rbs and 10 ass and his team loses in the finals because his teammates didnt step up, we do as if those amazing stats didnt happen?

[ImKobe]

People are arguing 16ppg Pippen was FMVP over 33ppg Jordan?


http://media.giphy.com/media/Z9OGuQyrfHAE8/giphy.gif











:facepalm


but but, DEFENSE!!!!!!! Jordan was a horrible defender!!!! Pippen shut down the entire Jazz team!!!! MJ overrated!!! :roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ won THE game of the series while Pippen was injured, though he did make a couple plays in the 4th while hobbling

just watch this shit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSlSRzml_u8#t=4327

And? Magic won the 1980 Finals' Game 6 with Kareem at home. Does that diminish what KAJ did to win the first 3 games?


Don't bother with this guy, unless you enjoy having your head fcked.

I operate too far above the rim for the typical MJ stan. :pimp:


Bringing up first round losses as an argument?

Why not? "One and done" is a huge knock against Peyton Manning.


Had to play vs the bad boys...

He played the Bucks and Celtics in those years. That is what happens when you go 38-44 or 40-42--you draw a strong opponent when you are a low seed.


damn roundball really knows his Bulls history

It was a pleasure to watch them. I used to love MJ too, until I joined ISH in 2009 and saw MJ stans in action. He has the worst fans. Hopefully most of them fade away once MJ's bandwagon loses the "GOAT" glow when LeBron surpasses him in a couple years.


People are arguing 16ppg Pippen was FMVP over 33ppg Jordan?

Yeah--people like the New York Times, Chicago Tribute, San Francisco Chronicle, Philadelphia Inquirer, Baltimore Sun, Sports Illustrated...Pippen in 98' was more dominant defensively than any perimeter player has ever been in the playoffs.


Pippen was a loser without Jordan. Couldn't win with Hakeem & Barkley(Kobe embarrassed him in 99), couldn't win with Sheed & Sabonis(Kobe took his soul with that crossover in 2000).

Pippen without Jordan

Regular season

51-21 (71%) on pace for the second best record in the NBA, #1 in the East
34-31 (52%)
31-19 (62%)
59-23 (72%) second best record in the NBA
35-25 (58%)
39-21 (65%)
38-19 (67%)
23-59 (28%) Pippen played in only 23 games and started only 6 so I cannot find their record in games he played. Needless to say, he was a washed up scrub by 2004.

Total: 310-218
Total minus 2004*: 287-159 (64%)

Playoffs

6-4 ECSF
1-3
10-6 WCF
0-3
0-3
2-2
Missed playoffs

Jordan without Pippen


Regular season

38-44 (46%)
9-9 (50%)
40-42 (49%)
24-11 (69%)
30-30 (50%)
37-45 (45%)

Total: 178-181 (49.6%)

Playoffs

1-3
0-3
0-3
Missed playoffs
Missed playoffs

Pippen the perennial winner

49-30
47-35 (missed nine games)
55-27
61-21
67-15
56-25
51-21
46-33
67-10
69-13
36-8
31-19
59-23
37-27
39-23
41-23
3-20

Translated win totals over 82 games from 1988-2003

51
47
55
61
67
57
58
48
71
69
67
51
59
47
52
53

Average: 57 wins, 70%
Pace for best record in the NBA: 5
Pace for the second best record in the NBA: 2 (1994 and 2000)
Pace for the #1 seed: 6
Pace for the #1 or #2 seed: 8

He was stuck in the ultracompetitive, deep West in the 2000's. His 2002 and 2003 teams were top 5 teams. In 2002 his team was the 5th best in the league and in 2003 4th best but all the superior teams happened to be in the West. If his Portland teams, which were below .500 without him in these seasons, were in the East they would have been the #1 seeds and probably made it to the NBA finals in 2002 and 2003.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

179-190.

Jordan without Pippen


Regular season

38-44 (46%)
9-9 (50%)
40-42 (49%)
24-11 (69%)
30-30 (50%)
37-45 (45%)

Total: 178-181 (49.6%)

Playoffs

1-3
0-3
0-3
Missed playoffs
Missed playoffs

:roll:

[97 bulls]

And this notion that Jordan "carried" the Bulls throughout the playoffs needs to stop. Most credit the win over Indiana to Pippen. He shut down Mark Jackson which killed the Pacer offense.

And go back an look at the Job he did on Glen Rice. Rice shot FG%s of 36%, 31%, 50%, 35%, then 60. And Rice was one of the premier scorers in the league at the time.

[poido123]

So we throw in the toilet all the accomplishments that dont involve winning the title?
If a player puts stats such as 50 ppg, 10 rbs and 10 ass and his team loses in the finals because his teammates didnt step up, we do as if those amazing stats didnt happen?


What is it relevant to?

What exactly is he trying to point out by saying the Bulls lost in the first round twice, when they clearly dominated their era and won 6 championships to prove it?

Means jackshit.

[nba_55]

How long have you been lurking?

Literally the first time I've seen you post. Should of stayed lurking :no:

How about acting like a mature adult instead of insulting? People don't always have the same opinions. Instead acting like an immature kid, accept the fact that not everyone has the same opinions as you.

[nba_55]

What is it relevant to?

What exactly is he trying to point out by saying the Bulls lost in the first round twice, when they clearly dominated their era and won 6 championships to prove it?

Means jackshit.

You didnt answer my question. All the accomplishments that dont involve the title are supposed to be thrown out in the toilet?

[poido123]

And? Magic won the 1980 Finals' Game 6 with Kareem at home. Does that diminish what KAJ did to win the first 3 games?



I operate too far above the rim for the typical MJ stan. :pimp:



Why not? "One and done" is a huge knock against Peyton Manning.



He played the Bucks and Celtics in those years. That is what happens when you go 38-44 or 40-42--you draw a strong opponent when you are a low seed.



It was a pleasure to watch them. I used to love MJ too, until I joined ISH in 2009 and saw MJ stans in action. He has the worst fans. Hopefully most of them fade away once MJ's bandwagon loses the "GOAT" glow when LeBron surpasses him in a couple years.



Yeah--people like the New York Times, Chicago Tribute, San Francisco Chronicle, Philadelphia Inquirer, Baltimore Sun, Sports Illustrated...Pippen in 98' was more dominant defensively than any perimeter player has ever been in the playoffs.



Pippen without Jordan

Regular season

51-21 (71%) on pace for the second best record in the NBA, #1 in the East
34-31 (52%)
31-19 (62%)
59-23 (72%) second best record in the NBA
35-25 (58%)
39-21 (65%)
38-19 (67%)
23-59 (28%) Pippen played in only 23 games and started only 6 so I cannot find their record in games he played. Needless to say, he was a washed up scrub by 2004.

Total: 310-218
Total minus 2004*: 287-159 (64%)

Playoffs

6-4 ECSF
1-3
10-6 WCF
0-3
0-3
2-2
Missed playoffs

Jordan without Pippen


Regular season

38-44 (46%)
9-9 (50%)
40-42 (49%)
24-11 (69%)
30-30 (50%)
37-45 (45%)

Total: 178-181 (49.6%)

Playoffs

1-3
0-3
0-3
Missed playoffs
Missed playoffs

Pippen the perennial winner

49-30
47-35 (missed nine games)
55-27
61-21
67-15
56-25
51-21
46-33
67-10
69-13
36-8
31-19
59-23
37-27
39-23
41-23
3-20

Translated win totals over 82 games from 1988-2003

51
47
55
61
67
57
58
48
71
69
67
51
59
47
52
53

Average: 57 wins, 70%
Pace for best record in the NBA: 5
Pace for the second best record in the NBA: 2 (1994 and 2000)
Pace for the #1 seed: 6
Pace for the #1 or #2 seed: 8

He was stuck in the ultracompetitive, deep West in the 2000's. His 2002 and 2003 teams were top 5 teams. In 2002 his team was the 5th best in the league and in 2003 4th best but all the superior teams happened to be in the West. If his Portland teams, which were below .500 without him in these seasons, were in the East they would have been the #1 seeds and probably made it to the NBA finals in 2002 and 2003.



Can you explain how Pippen carried jordan in the 98 finals? Can you explain to me how Pippen's amazing defense was the reason why they won?

Don't lie, you never liked Jordan and you have had an agenda against him in everything you say. You're a butthurt Barkley fan who can't get over the past.

[poido123]

You didnt answer my question. All the accomplishments that dont involve the title are supposed to be thrown out in the toilet?


I answered it. what is it relevant to? What are you trying to prove by suggesting that particular statistic?

[Roundball_Rock]

Can you explain how Pippen carried jordan in the 98 finals? Can you explain to me how Pippen's amazing defense was the reason why they won?

I am biased. Go read what the unbiased press--the same guys who pimped MJ as GOAT and covered up his flaws--had to say contemporaneously. :pimp:

Jordan lost three times, not twice in the first round btw:

6 rings
3 first round losses
2 ECSF losses
2 ECF losses
2 missed playoffs

[nba_55]

I answered it. what is it relevant to? What are you trying to prove by suggesting that particular statistic?
:facepalm

[Beastmode88]

How about posting the actual facts instead of the ''if, should, would,could''?

Do I really need to post lebron's final history? :lol let's see off the top of my head..

2007 nba finals.. i agree he needed help but still getting swept? :banana:
2011 nba finals.. choked in 4th, defended by jet and annihilated by jet. (this will forever remind on his resume, no matter how good his career will be in the future the fact that he choked vs the mavericks will go down as the worst nba finals performance by a superstar, period. how in hell do you get dominated by someone you have 6 inches on)
2012 nba finals.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvMG7mZGo04
2013 nba finals.. ray allen.. if you think bran's game 7 eclipse ray's 3 pointer then you need check yourself. if you ask anyone what people would remember more, ray allen's 3 point shot or bran's game 7 i bet money they would say ray allen.
2014 nba finals.. easiest path to the finals (bobcats :roll:, aarp brooklyn :roll: and pacers :facepalm and now they play against a 38 y/o tim duncan & 36 y/o manu?) :biggums:

Only thing that matters is winning in the finals. Here's some numbers for you. 6 for 6 (100%). lebron will either be 2 for 5 (40%) or 3 for 5 (60%) after this year. 100% > all.

[poido123]

So we throw in the toilet all the accomplishments that dont involve winning the title?
If a player puts stats such as 50 ppg, 10 rbs and 10 ass and his team loses in the finals because his teammates didnt step up, we do as if those amazing stats didnt happen?


Please tell me, if we aren't judging players based on titles, what are we judging them on?

If you want to say the eye test, most people would say Jordan was the GOAT.

He proves it in dominance of his career and he proves it by actually watching him.

I have no problem if someone suggests a guy like Kareem, russell or even Wilt to have a case for GOAT. But stupid nitpicking is what I see in this thread.

[ImKobe]

And this notion that Jordan "carried" the Bulls throughout the playoffs needs to stop. Most credit the win over Indiana to Pippen. He shut down Mark Jackson which killed the Pacer offense.

And go back an look at the Job he did on Glen Rice. Rice shot FG%s of 36%, 31%, 50%, 35%, then 60. And Rice was one of the premier scorers in the league at the time.

Rice shot 44% for the series and averaged 23/5/2 and it's not like his efficiency correlated to any success in that series, the only game the Hornets won was when Rice had his worst shooting game of the series, meanwhile Pippen shot 4-16 in that game.

The job on Mark Jackson is also overrated, the guy put up 10 & 6 on 43/47/78 shooting in that series, actually better than his regular season numbers and the numbers he put up in the prior rounds. He had a much easier time scoring against the Bulls, though I do give Scottie credit for limiting Jackson's playmaking in that series.

My conclusion is that Pippen is severely overrated by Jordan haters, making up myths about his defensive prowess, acting like it weighs more than MJ's whole body of work.

[poido123]

:facepalm


Great.

You have no argument, which is what I thought.

[ImKobe]

I am biased. Go read what the unbiased press--the same guys who pimped MJ as GOAT and covered up his flaws--had to say contemporaneously. :pimp:

Jordan lost three times, not twice in the first round btw:

6 rings
3 first round losses
2 ECSF losses
2 ECF losses
2 missed playoffs

I love how you're so detailed about MJ's numbers and you go all the way to give us the full context, but you disregard how Pippen got spanked by Glen Rice and Kobe while he was playing with two hall of famers in Barkley and Hakeem. How did that 1999 first round taste?

[97 bulls]

People are arguing 16ppg Pippen was FMVP over 33ppg
That was the consensus across the United States. We've posted newspaper clippings from Los Angeles, New York, And Chicago, Sports Illustrated, quotes from Jerry Sloan, the Stats, etc. What more do you want?

I even agree that Jordan shouldve won FMVP due to Pippen being injured and Jordan's game six heroics. But I vehemently disagree with the notion that Jordan "drug" the Bulls to a title in 98. That's a bold faced lie.

And this doesn't include Rodmans defense on Malone. I remember NBC posting a stat that showed Karl Malone FG% vs Longley, Rodman, and Wennington. He was in the Low 30s vs Rodman and high 40% vs the other.









:facepalm[/QUOTE]

[poido123]

I am biased. Go read what the unbiased press--the same guys who pimped MJ as GOAT and covered up his flaws--had to say contemporaneously. :pimp:

Jordan lost three times, not twice in the first round btw:

6 rings
3 first round losses
2 ECSF losses
2 ECF losses
2 missed playoffs


What is your point?

We know you can copy/paste from google, tell us something that means something.

[ImKobe]

What is your point?

We know you can copy/paste from google, tell us something that means something.

He doesn't have a point. He's just a troll. Michael is undefeated in the Finals while leading every single series in scoring and while being the consensus Finals MVP in each and every one of them, he's trying to insinuate that MJ wasn't the Finals MVP in a series where he scored twice as much as Pippen while being the more efficient player and having half as many turnovers despite having a much higher usage rate, he also scored 8 points in the last 2 minutes of the series and had the biggest defensive play of the series, but let's talk about Pippen's amazing intangibles on the defensive end and disregard everything else :oldlol:

MJ the GOAT

[Roundball_Rock]

My conclusion is that Pippen is severely overrated by Jordan haters, making up myths about his defensive prowess, acting like it weighs more than MJ's whole body of work.

Writers, players (Reggie Miller is a MJ hater? :lol ), coaches from the time were in on this MJ conspiracy in the 90's? The fact is the media built MJ into what he is today. Without the media, MJ would be another GOAT candidate, not the supposed "clear GOAT" who is a cut above the rest.

As a note on his defense, what we are talking about in this thread is his defense in the 98' Finals. That was probably the GOAT perimeter player defensive run defense. Obviously MJ fans cannot give credit to anyone else on the Bulls, lest it damage the fragile mythology, but we are talking about one epic run.

Some quick quotes on Pippen.

Phil Jackson: "Your (Pippen) defense on Magic Johnson changed the fortunes of the series."

The GOAT coach''A lot of people watch who score and that's wonderful,'' said Bulls Coach Phil Jackson. ''But Scottie Pippen's defense is a one-man wrecking crew. He plays 48 feet at every position, both sides of court.''

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/14/sports/let-us-now-praise-pippen.html?scp=3&sq=Scottie%20Pippen&st=cse

Dream Team III/Reggie Miller=: PHOENIX -- I walked up to each one of them and asked the question.

If you could be any other player here who would it be?

It was a question I'd asked 12 years ago to Dream Team III: Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, Shaq.

Their answers lent insight into which players they respected, whose game they feared. Back then Scottie Pippen's name came up the most. Five out of the 12 players on that team wanted to be, even if for one game, Jordan's Green Hornet. When asked, "Why Pip?" it was Miller who explained it best: "Because Pippen can score only five points and still dominate a basketball game." (MJ fans have trouble grasping dominated while scoring less than 30 points. No wonder they underrate Russell...)

Charley Rosen's scouting report on Pip: Pip was a tremendous defensive player because of his length, quick hands and feet, uncanny anticipation, competitive nature, athleticism, and his thorough understanding of the favorite moves of his opponent-of-the-moment. Any careless, unprotected dribble was up for grabs, plus he was quick enough to threaten any pass thrown in his vicinity.

Because of all of these qualities, Pip could play his man soft, but still challenge most shots or passes.

And, above all, Pippen was one of the best practitioners of team defense that the league has ever seen. On many occasions, Phil Jackson would question a player about why he had not adhered to the pre-game script by failing to double a designated scorer or "half" a defensive rotation. The player's response would usually be, "Scottie told me to do something different."

PJ would then shrug, nod and say, "Okay."

Karl Malone: ''He could be the best defensive player playing,'' Malone said.

Michael Jordan: "There is one guy in the league who can guard me. Fortunately he is on my team.

Sports Illustrated: Pippen is the second best player in the league (1997).

1995-96 season ESPN Sunday Conversation

Roy Firestone interviewing Scottie: "They are saying this is an MVP season for you..."
Who was "they" you ask? Several people, including some guy named Michael Jeffery Jordan...

Bob Ryan: "This guy gives them elements on the court that are unattainable, unapproachable anywhere else..."

Dick Schaap: "Is he is good as his teammate?"

Ryan: "Well, as a matter of fact technically he is, but he doesn't have the aura of Michael Jordan but he can do things--in a package--that is unsurpassed in the NBA today..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTRqNvUSACE

[/b]Matt Guokas:[/b]

[GimmeThat]

I wish Iverson didn't crossover on Jordan
I wish Kobe didn't challenge Jordan
I wish Jordan was still playing so Lebron could go against him.


Because even if I were Kevin Durant.
The possibility to b*tch slap the GOAT even at the possibility of embarassment sounds too good to be true.

[Roundball_Rock]

while being the consensus Finals MVP in each and every one of them,

Another MJ stan myth. :oldlol: Pippen had a case in 98' and Rodman did in 96'.

Again, if the claims made about MJ are accurate why all the mythology? His record should suffice, no?

[poido123]

He doesn't have a point. He's just a troll. Michael is undefeated in the Finals while leading every single series in scoring and while being the consensus Finals MVP in each and every one of them, he's trying to insinuate that MJ wasn't the Finals MVP in a series where he scored twice as much as Pippen while being the more efficient player and having half as many turnovers despite having a much higher usage rate, he also scored 8 points in the last 2 minutes of the series and had the biggest defensive play of the series, but let's talk about Pippen's amazing intangibles on the defensive end and disregard everything else :oldlol:

MJ the GOAT


:cheers:

I have no problem crediting Pippen on what he provided to the Bulls and he was very important to their success, no doubt about that. But you call Jordan a Loser when Pippen wasn't playing? Or to suggest that Jordan is only a winner when playing with Pippen?

It's funny, every star player has had some kind of help to win championships. Jordan had Pippen as his only main help in the first 3 peat(honorable mention Grant), so if you take away his only main help, it goes without saying that he would struggle to carry the team.


Btw, I've been reading a lot of anti-Kobe threads lately. I don't like a lot of the disrespect going around about Kobe either. Lebron fans are just shameless. :facepalm

[ImKobe]

Another MJ stan myth. :oldlol: Pippen had a case in 98' and Rodman in 96'.

"had a case" :lol

MJ won it, it's in the books, go check it out and report back via PM :oldlol:

You are one of the more dedicated trolls I've ever seen, I wish you'd spend it on giving it to these Lebron stans instead of wasting time on a Kobe fan boy, who hates the sight of Michael Jordan because he's a superior version of Kobe Bryant, but to each his own.

[Sarcastic]

Pippen and Rodman had just as much a case as Ray Allen did last year.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen and Rodman had just as much a case as Ray Allen did last year.

Can you cite some credible sources arguing that Allen was Finals MVP? I must have missed them. Thanks in advance.

[ImKobe]

:cheers:

I have no problem crediting Pippen on what he provided to the Bulls and he was very important to their success, no doubt about that. But you call Jordan a Loser when Pippen wasn't playing? Or to suggest that Jordan is only a winner when playing with Pippen?

It's funny, every star player has had some kind of help to win championships. Jordan had Pippen as his only main help in the first 3 peat(honorable mention Grant), so if you take away his only main help, it goes without saying that he would struggle to carry the team.


Btw, I've been reading a lot of anti-Kobe threads lately. I don't like a lot of the disrespect going around about Kobe. Lebron fans are just shameless. :facepalm

It's always been like that, I've had to hold it down ever since 9er & Jabbar gave up battling these fools, but I'm more relentless.

Point is that everyone has a different opinion and a different view, I think these topics are highly subjective and you could spin shit any way you wanted, which is what this guy is doing. I have to applaud him for his efforts :applause:

[ImKobe]

Can you cite some credible sources arguing that Allen was Finals MVP? I must have missed them. Thanks in advance.

Replace Allen with Chris Bosh

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/playoffs/2013/06/19/chris-bosh-finals-miami-heat-vs-san-antonio-spurs-game-6/2437043/

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/6/21/4452340/nba-finals-heat-spurs-chris-bosh-defense

http://nba.si.com/2013/12/18/court-vision-chris-bosh-miami-heat-defense/

[QUOTE]Bosh is quickly becoming known as maybe the best defensive power forward on the perimeter, and Miami uses his rare quickness and agility to great advantage; it

[poido123]

It's always been like that, I've had to hold it down ever since 9er & Jabbar gave up battling these fools, but I'm more relentless.

Point is that everyone has a different opinion and a different view, I think these topics are highly subjective and you could spin shit any way you wanted, which is what this guy is doing. I have to applaud him for his efforts :applause:


I know. Jabbar consistently clowns the Heat fans and they desparately want him to disappear :lol Keep on the fight, they will get worse, before they get better.

I'm fine with the different view, but you can see when people are nitpicking instead of actually making a point.

[ImKobe]

I know. Jabbar consistently clowns the Heat fans and they desparately want him to disappear :lol Keep on the fight, they will get worse, before they get better.

I'm fine with the different view, but you can see when people are nitpicking instead of actually making a point.

He never answers my questions and he just posts random newspaper articles as his sources of proof. a few newspaper pages isn't going to change what's in the record books and he knows that.

[Roundball_Rock]

Replace Allen with Chris Bosh

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/playoffs/2013/06/19/chris-bosh-finals-miami-heat-vs-san-antonio-spurs-game-6/2437043/

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/6/21/4452340/nba-finals-heat-spurs-chris-bosh-defense

http://nba.si.com/2013/12/18/court-vision-chris-bosh-miami-heat-defense/



I guess because Bosh was so pivotal and he did so much on the defensive end in shutting down Tony Parker in the last two games + working on Duncan in Game 7, he had to be the MVP of the series, because scoring and all that other shit does not matter to you, right? :rolleyes:

Typical MJ stan.

:roll: at comparing articles saying Bosh had a few games with articles saying Pippen was the FMVP at that point when the issue at hand is FMVP discussion.

P.S. when you go to college, don't ever cite SB Nation as a source for anything. :oldlol:


He never answers my questions and he just posts random newspaper articles as his sources of proof. a few newspaper pages isn't going to change what's in the record books and he knows that.

That is not the issue at hand. You said with respect to the 98' Finals, and I am paraphrasing, "at no point was MJ not the clear FMVP" and you said Pippen had only one good game. After being deluged with facts you have backtracked numerous times. Take the L and retreat to fight another day.

[ArbitraryWater]

"a few newspaper pages".......

Still haven't provided any suggestions within the media saying Bosh or Allen for FMVP...


Look, at some point, with the sources laying in the DOUBLE DIGIT AREA, there's PROOF for a case to be made... stop denying it. Its another thing to have never read about it, or never heard of it... ala Ray Allen for 2013 :wtf: :facepalm

[ImKobe]

Typical MJ stan.

:roll: at comparing articles saying Bosh had a few games with articles saying Pippen was the FMVP at that point when the issue at hand is FMVP discussion.

P.S. when you go to college, don't ever cite SB Nation as a source for anything. :oldlol:

http://ct.fra.bz/il/fz/se/i47/5/3/13/f_4d02ba3a91.jpg

+ it's the gifs that matter, I didn't bother pasting all the plays that are shown, the article is well detailed and I used different sources :rolleyes:

[Beastmode88]

"a few newspaper pages".......

Still haven't provided any suggestions within the media saying Bosh or Allen for FMVP...


Look, at some point, with the sources laying in the DOUBLE DIGIT AREA, there's PROOF for a case to be made... stop denying it. Its another thing to have never read about it, or never heard of it... ala Ray Allen for 2013 :wtf: :facepalm

i think the newspaper had jet winning 2011 fmvp

[ImKobe]

That is not the issue at hand. You said with respect to the 98' Finals, and I am paraphrasing, "at no point was MJ not the clear FMVP" and you said Pippen had only one good game. After being deluged with facts you have backtracked numerous times. Take the L and retreat to fight another day.

I said he had only one GREAT game, which is true. Game 4 was his best game of the series. Game 4 he played great on both ends of the floor, Game 3 was only great defensively, I take both sides of the court into account.

MJ was the 1998 Finals MVP, there's nothing to debate here.

[Roundball_Rock]

"a few newspaper pages".......

Still haven't provided any suggestions within the media saying Bosh or Allen for FMVP...


Look, at some point, with the sources laying in the DOUBLE DIGIT AREA, there's PROOF for a case to be made... stop denying it. Its another thing to have never read about it, or never heard of it... ala Ray Allen for 2013 :wtf: :facepalm

Exactly. Half of the major newspapers in this nation along with the nation's sports magazine of record were cited and this guy continues with his MJ stan revisionism:


I said he had only one GREAT game, which is true.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Do you see LeBron fans diminish Wade in this way or KAJ fans diminish Magic or Bird fans do so vis-a-vis McHale?


i think the newspaper had jet winning 2011 fmvp

Historians use multiple sources. For example, if there is, say, a passage about how difficult it looked like for a particular bill to get passed at the time--even though it ultimately passed--they might cite a few newspaper/magazine accounts and provide some quotes from those involved to back up that claim. You cannot simply pull assertions out of your rear.

[97 bulls]

Rice shot 44% for the series and averaged 23/5/2 and it's not like his efficiency correlated to any success in that series, the only game the Hornets won was when Rice had his worst shooting game of the series, meanwhile Pippen shot 4-16 in that game.

The job on Mark Jackson is also overrated, the guy put up 10 & 6 on 43/47/78 shooting in that series, actually better than his regular season numbers and the numbers he put up in the prior rounds. He had a much easier time scoring against the Bulls,though I do give Scottie credit for limiting Jackson's playmaking in that series.

My conclusion is that Pippen is severely overrated by Jordan haters, making up myths about his defensive prowess, acting like it weighs more than MJ's whole body of work.
This is what made Pips defense on Jackson so great. He killed the Pacer offense. And honestly, you're the first person that I've come across that said that Pippens defense on Jackson was overrated.

And what here that has been posted is made up? We are backing up eveything were saying with what was the consensus at the time. The only myth is anyone making the claim that Jordan drug the Bulls to a championship in 98. Thats not how it was viewed back then.

[Roundball_Rock]

This is what made Pips defense on Jackson so great. He killed the Pacer offense. And honestly, you're the first person that I've come across that said that Pippens defense on Jackson was overrated.

And what here that has been posted is made up? We are backing up eveything were saying with what was the consensus at the time. The only myth is anyone making the claim that Jordan drug the Bulls to a championship in 98. Thats not how it was viewed back then.

Exactly. ImKobe (who presumably was banned as EricForman) obviously did not watch basketball back then. No less than Larry Bird credited Pippen's defensive role. Yet, since these guys only grasp scoring, they are ignoring how crucial defense was in those two series (98' Finals and 98' ECF).

[Psileas]

Another MJ stan myth. :oldlol: Pippen had a case in 98' and Rodman did in 96'.

Again, if the claims made about MJ are accurate why all the mythology? His record should suffice, no?

Τhis "consensus" is actually a myth regardless of who had the better case, and it's easy to prove: In the 1996 Finals, 3 different players won MVP votes: Jordan, Rodman and Kemp (who might have been the best player in the series regardless of the winner).

[poido123]

Exactly. Half of the major newspapers in this nation along with the nation's sports magazine of record were cited and this guy continues with his MJ stan revisionism:



:roll: :roll: :roll:

Do you see LeBron fans diminish Wade in this way or KAJ fans diminish Magic or Bird fans do so vis-a-vis McHale?



Historians use multiple sources. For example, if there is, say, a passage about how difficult it looked like for a particular bill to get passed at the time--even though it ultimately passed--they might cite a few newspaper/magazine accounts and provide some quotes from those involved to back up that claim. You cannot simply pull assertions out of your rear.



These type of posters worry me.

The one's who post up numerous articles and statistics, I wonder if you even watch the damn games to get your opinions. Why have all those stats if you don't draw an opinion from actually watching them play?

[Roundball_Rock]

Τhis "consensus" is actually a myth regardless of who had the better case, and it's easy to prove: In the 1996 Finals, 3 different players won MVP votes: Jordan, Rodman and Kemp (who might have been the best player in the series regardless of the winner).

Exactly. :applause:

[ArbitraryWater]

Exactly. ImKobe (who presumably was banned as EricForman) obviously did not watch basketball back then. No less than Larry Bird credited Pippen's defensive role. Yet, since these guys only grasp scoring, they are ignoring how crucial defense was in those two series (98' Finals and 98' ECF).

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130211050004/friends/images/d/da/Shocked.gif

[ArbitraryWater]

These type of posters worry me.

The one's who post up numerous articles and statistics, I wonder if you even watch the damn games to get your opinions. Why have all those stats if you don't draw an opinion from actually watching them play?

Because it sounds ****in' stupid?


"Pippen was Finals MVP because that's the way I saw it................."


BASELESS. ANYONE can say that...

What do you think the Writers/Newspapers based it on??

Use your brain FFS

[ImKobe]

This is what made Pips defense on Jackson so great. He killed the Pacer offense. And honestly, you're the first person that I've come across that said that Pippens defense on Jackson was overrated.

And what here that has been posted is made up? We are backing up eveything were saying with what was the consensus at the time. The only myth is anyone making the claim that Jordan drug the Bulls to a championship in 98. Thats not how it was viewed back then.

I want to see the footage that would back up the claims that have been made, so far I've only seen articles. While I do not question the fact that Pippen was a better defender than Jordan at the time (Jordan was on his last legs anyways), I do question the argument at hand, which is that Pippen was a more valuable player than Jordan in the 1998 NBA Finals.

Statistics quite clearly favor Jordan and so does the eye test (I've watched the series at least twice), Jordan also had the biggest plays of the series on both ends of the court.

Statistical comparison

Jordan: 33.5 ppg 4.0 rpg 2.3 apg 1.8 spg 0.7 bpg, 52%TS 2.7%STL 4.9%TOV 41.2%USG 111 ORTG 100 DRTG
Pippen: 15.7 ppg 6.8 rpg 4.8 apg 1.8 spg 0.8 bpg 50%TS 2.5%STL 14.6%TOV 22.9%USG 104 ORTG 97 DRTG

Scottie's energy on the defensive end obviously was a key ingredient and perhaps as important as Jordan's scoring, but the Bulls don't win the series without MJ's heroics. Scottie looked done after that injury....MJ doesn't win the game at the end and the Jazz would more than likely win Game 7 with Pippen limited. Pippen was the best defensive player of the series, but he was not the most valuable player. Michael took the team to the finish line before they fell off the rails, he scored 8 points in the last 2 minutes, including 4 in the last 40 seconds to bring the team back from down 3... It's even blasphemous to debate over this..

[tmacattack33]

Can we stop comparing these players like LeChoke to him already?

I'm talking to you, ESPN.

So what.

If he won all the time at home, then all that means is that he won less on the road than what one might have assumed. :confusedshrug:

So you could even flip that and make it a bad thing, and say that he couldn't win as an underdog as much as a true undispited GOAT should have.

[Young X]

So what.

If he won all the time at home, then all that means is that he won less on the road than what one might assume. :confusedshrug:

So you could even flip that and make it a bad thing, and say that he couldn't win as an underdog as much as a true undispited GOAT should have.His teams won 6 series without HCA. The only times his teams lost was when they were SUPPOSED to lose.

[ArbitraryWater]

I want to see the footage that would back up the claims that have been made, so far I've only seen articles. While I do not question the fact that Pippen was a better defender than Jordan at the time (Jordan was on his last legs anyways), I do question the argument at hand, which is that Pippen was a more valuable player than Jordan in the 1998 NBA Finals.

Statistics quite clearly favor Jordan and so does the eye test (I've watched the series at least twice), Jordan also had the biggest plays of the series on both ends of the court.

Statistical comparison

Jordan: 33.5 ppg 4.0 rpg 2.3 apg 1.8 spg 0.7 bpg, 52%TS 2.7%STL 4.9%TOV 41.2%USG 111 ORTG 100 DRTG
Pippen: 15.7 ppg 6.8 rpg 4.8 apg 1.8 spg 0.8 bpg 50%TS 2.5%STL 14.6%TOV 22.9%USG 104 ORTG 97 DRTG

You guys sure switch alot with the "its just stats!! watch the games smh" to posting all stats when it suits you... the typical kobe fan crowd in a nutshell.

[Roundball_Rock]

Because it sounds ****in' stupid?


"Pippen was Finals MVP because that's the way I saw it................."


BASELESS. ANYONE can say that...

What do you think the Writers/Newspapers based it on??

Exactly. Again, historians routinely do the same thing. :oldlol: at these MJ fans acting incredulous over what was a common view through the first 4 games of the 98' Finals (the Bulls led 3-1 at that point).


I want to see the footage that would back up the claims that have been made

YouTube.com


It's even blasphemous to debate over this..

This says it all. MJ is a god to him!

[poido123]

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130211050004/friends/images/d/da/Shocked.gif




LMFAOO :oldlol: Good post OP!

Go jump on if you care for more disappointments :cheers:

Tough times for these peeps



Speaking of Alts

:roll: :roll:

[ImKobe]

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130211050004/friends/images/d/da/Shocked.gif

Care to give me the story on this Eric guy? I find it amusing whenever someone accuses me of being some other poster.

[ImKobe]

You guys sure switch alot with the "its just stats!! watch the games smh" to posting all stats when it suits you... the typical kobe fan crowd in a nutshell.

Not really. It's just a pure statistic analysis. I've watched the 1998 NBA Finals at least twice and the eye test confirms what the stats show me. Michael was a dominant scorer while Pippen held it down on the defensive end, but the gap between the two on the defensive end wasn't that big either and Scottie going 2-16 in a close-out game should eliminate him from any kind of MVP talk. It's his fault he messed up his back the following game.

[tmacattack33]

His teams won 6 series without HCA. The only times his teams lost was when they were SUPPOSED to lose.

Yes, we already know that MJ did great in the playoffs as a whole.

We don't care about a result within a result.

If I get a 92 on a test about gravity and friction, then i got a 92. It doesn't matter if i answered all the gravity questions correctly, because all that would mean is that i got more friction questions wrong then you would otherwise assume.

[ImKobe]

Yes, we already know that MJ did great in the playoffs as a whole.

We don't care about a result within a result.

If I get a 92 on a test about gravity and friction, then i got a 92. It doesn't matter if i answered all the gravity questions correctly, because all that would mean is that i got more friction questions wrong then you would otherwise assume.

ISHception

[Roundball_Rock]

he gap between the two on the defensive end wasn't that big either

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: Younger folks, just read the articles and see what was said at the time about defense and who the dominant defender was. Here Pippen was having an all-time great defensive perimeter player run and these guys are acting as if 35 MJ was on his level.

You are conflating two issues:

1) Who should have been FMVP.

2) Who was the FMVP front-runner throughout the series. This was because you said at "no point" was MJ not the clear FMVP--and that Pippen had only one great game. That led to a torrent of contemporary evidence clearly and convincingly refuting you, along with two Bulls fans who watched the series refuting you.

[juju151111]

Τhis "consensus" is actually a myth regardless of who had the better case, and it's easy to prove: In the 1996 Finals, 3 different players won MVP votes: Jordan, Rodman and Kemp (who might have been the best player in the series regardless of the winner).
Remind me again who won the finals MVP those 3 years

[ImKobe]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: Younger folks, just read the articles and see what was said at the time about defense and who the dominant defender was. Here Pippen was having an all-time great defensive perimeter player run and these guys are acting as if 35 MJ was on his level.

You are conflating two issues:

1) Who should have been FMVP.

2) Who was the FMVP front-runner throughout the series. This was because you said at "no point" was MJ not the clear FMVP--and that Pippen had only one great game. That led to a torrent of contemporary evidence clearly and convincingly refuting you, along with two Bulls fans who watched the series refuting you.

I prefer watching the actual footage. Reading articles is as useful as looking at statistics.

And Pippen killed his chances being a Finals MVP when he choked in Game 5 + thanks to that injured himself in Game 6 and needed Michael to close the deal.

I don't see point in taking this excuse of a debate any further, because you are obviously not going to condede anything and are going to keep on repeating the same thing until someone accepts it as truth. I am not that kind of a person, sorry.

[Sarcastic]

Τhis "consensus" is actually a myth regardless of who had the better case, and it's easy to prove: In the 1996 Finals, 3 different players won MVP votes: Jordan, Rodman and Kemp (who might have been the best player in the series regardless of the winner).


You have to keep in mind, this was the period of Jordan "voter fatigue". The fact that Kemp (who did play great) got votes, while on the losing team is a testament to that.

[poido123]

You have to keep in mind, this was the period of Jordan "voter fatigue". The fact that Kemp (who did play great) got votes, while on the losing team is a testament to that.


Good post man :applause:

[TheMan]

This confirms that he did not watch the series. :roll: Pippen's best game was probably Game 3, where he scored only 10 points (the only game that was a blowout in that series. Anyone who watched the series knows exactly why :bowdown: ).



Yeah--he led them to a 56 win pace without Pippen--with a team that won 69 games the year before. Amazing! :rolleyes: Pippen led the Bulls to a 58 win pace in 94' without MJ--with a team that won 57 games the year before.
Scottie Pippen was an important part of the Bulls championships runs but in no way are you gonna convince anybody he was the main reason for those 6 titles. Anyone who watched those Bulls teams know it was MJ's team. Pip was always the sidekick, Robin to MJ's Batman, stop pretending it wasn't like that.

Nice gimmick you got going but you ain't fooling anyone, a Bran stan pretending to be an unbiased Bulls 'fan'. Get the fvck outta here.

BTW, your posts are garbage and not worth the time debunking.

[Psileas]

You have to keep in mind, this was the period of Jordan "voter fatigue". The fact that Kemp (who did play great) got votes, while on the losing team is a testament to that.

This was 1996, why would there be voter fatigue, as long as the previous 2 Finals MVP's went to someone else? If anything, it would be voters' best chance to show that "Jordan returned to the throne". And how come he won it easier in both 1997 and 1998?
Matter of fact is, this was clearly Jordan's worst Finals series, it just wasn't dominant enough to earn him unanimity.

[TheMan]

Yet Michael won the Finals MVP and showed up in the biggest moment while Pippen was injured. Michael won the series, period.

The only guys that are agreeing with this dude are Lebron fans.
Of course, they need to cut MJ down a few pegs because they know LeBron ain't catching MJ :oldlol: . Next they'll argue Paxson was the real MVP of the first Bulls title. :facepalm

Downright laughable the Pippen > Jordan argument they're trying to make, says much more of their stupidity than anything else really.

[Sarcastic]

This was 1996, why would there be voter fatigue, as long as the previous 2 Finals MVP's went to someone else? If anything, it would be voters' best chance to show that "Jordan returned to the throne". And how come he won it easier in both 1997 and 1998?
Matter of fact is, this was clearly Jordan's worst Finals series, it just wasn't dominant enough to earn him unanimity.


Not every Van Gogh painting is as good as Starry Night.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: Younger folks, just read the articles and see what was said at the time about defense and who the dominant defender was. Here Pippen was having an all-time great defensive perimeter player run and these guys are acting as if 35 MJ was on his level.

You are conflating two issues:

1) Who should have been FMVP.

2) Who was the FMVP front-runner throughout the series. This was because you said at "no point" was MJ not the clear FMVP--and that Pippen had only one great game. That led to a torrent of contemporary evidence clearly and convincingly refuting you, along with two Bulls fans who watched the series refuting you.

Pippen wasn't as good as Mike, who carried the offensive burden for the entirety of his career, and wasn't nearly as dominant.. Neither did he have a case > Jordan for FMVP (over the course of an entire series).

[97 bulls]

I want to see the footage that would back up the claims that have been made, so far I've only seen articles. While I do not question the fact that Pippen was a better defender than Jordan at the time (Jordan was on his last legs anyways), I do question the argument at hand, which is that Pippen was a more valuable player than Jordan in the 1998 NBA Finals.

Statistics quite clearly favor Jordan and so does the eye test (I've watched the series at least twice), Jordan also had the biggest plays of the series on both ends of the court.

Statistical comparison

Jordan: 33.5 ppg 4.0 rpg 2.3 apg 1.8 spg 0.7 bpg, 52%TS 2.7%STL 4.9%TOV 41.2%USG 111 ORTG 100 DRTG
Pippen: 15.7 ppg 6.8 rpg 4.8 apg 1.8 spg 0.8 bpg 50%TS 2.5%STL 14.6%TOV 22.9%USG 104 ORTG 97 DRTG

Scottie's energy on the defensive end obviously was a key ingredient and perhaps as important as Jordan's scoring, but the Bulls don't win the series without MJ's heroics. Scottie looked done after that injury....MJ doesn't win the game at the end and the Jazz would more than likely win Game 7 with Pippen limited. Pippen was the best defensive player of the series, but he was not the most valuable player. Michael took the team to the finish line before they fell off the rails, he scored 8 points in the last 2 minutes, including 4 in the last 40 seconds to bring the team back from down 3... It's even blasphemous to debate over this..
I see your point. Im not saying that Pippen deserved the MVP over Jordan based on games 1-6. What I am saying is that based on games 1-4? Pippen was the front runner based on my eye test, stats, and the general opinion at the time. And thus Jordan DID NOT "drag" the Bulls to a championship in 98.

Im not a LeBron James fan. Ask any Heat fan that frequents this site. Im a Bulls fan first and take a huge exception to the constant bashing of Michael Jordans teammates.

[97 bulls]

Not really. It's just a pure statistic analysis. I've watched the 1998 NBA Finals at least twice and the eye test confirms what the stats show me. Michael was a dominant scorer while Pippen held it down on the defensive end, but the gap between the two on the defensive end wasn't that big either and Scottie going 2-16 in a close-out game should eliminate him from any kind of MVP talk. It's his fault he messed up his back the following game.
And it did. But that doesn't mean Jordan drug the Bulls to a Championship.

Saying that it was Pippens fault that he hurt his back is just ignorant.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pippen without Jordan..blah blah

All superstars need help.. I fail to see your point.

And no, the Bulls didn't start winning right away when Pippen joined the team in the '88 season.. Guy rode the pine his first year while Mike was winning MVP and DPOY in the same season. Not until the entire team with Grant, Pippen, and Jordan had played together for a few years did Chicago win in '91.

[Roundball_Rock]

You have to keep in mind, this was the period of Jordan "voter fatigue". The fact that Kemp (who did play great) got votes, while on the losing team is a testament to that.

:wtf: MJ was the unanimous winner of all regular season MVP votes in 1996. Moreover, as Psileas noted, MJ had not won the FMVP in 1994 or 1995 so it is odd to say the guy who won three straight from 1991-1993 and then again from 1996-1998 was a victim of "voter fatigue." No player in NBA history has had a more favorable press than MJ...


Scottie Pippen was an important part of the Bulls championships runs but in no way are you gonna convince anybody he was the main reason for those 6 titles

Where has that been argued? Are all MJ stans bereft of reading comprehension skills? No wonder they took the easy way out and simply jumped on the biggest bandwagon of all-time. :lol


Nice gimmick you got going but you ain't fooling anyone, a Bran stan pretending to be an unbiased Bulls 'fan'.

Really? Is this why I was critical of LeBron in past years?

Another dense MJ stan who cannot think subtly.


What I am saying is that based on games 1-4? Pippen was the front runner based on my eye test, stats, and the general opinion at the time. And thus Jordan DID NOT "drag" the Bulls to a championship in 98.

:applause:


Saying that it was Pippens fault that he hurt his back is just ignorant.

Maybe he should have "conserved" his energy on defense as the #3 or #4 defensive option. :lol


Guy rode the pine his first year

Yeah--until the final game of the first round when Collins inserted him into the starting line up, hoping for a spark; he had his best game of the year and the Bulls finally got out the first round...

[RoundMoundOfReb]

If MJ had the same W-L playoff series record with a couple of home series losses and a couple more of road wins would it seriously change peoples opinion of how good he was? loll

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Once again, Pippen NEVER had a case over Jordan in the '98 finals.. Mike was still the best player, leading the team in scoring (and all advanced metrics such as win shares, PER, and everything else). Yeah, he was a bit past his prime, and he had help, but he was still easily the best player, and the primaray offensive force behind the chips..




Yeah--until the final game of the first round when Collins inserted him into the starting line up, hoping for a spark; he had his best game of the year and the Bulls finally got out the first round...

And yet, Mike was still the teams best player by a fair margin.

What is your argument exactly? That superstars need help..? :hammerhead:

[97 bulls]

Once again, Pippen NEVER had a case over Jordan in the '98 finals.. Mike was still the best player, leading the team in scoring (and all advanced metrics such as win shares, PER, and everything else). Yeah, he was a bit past his prime, and he had help, but he was still easily the best player, and the primaray offensive force behind the chips..



And yet, Mike was still the teams best player by a fair margin.

What is your argument exactly? That superstars need help..? :hammerhead:
He never had a case? So all the newspaper articles etc just made that stuff up? Id be willing to bet that if you took away both players last two games (the ones where Pip was injured) Pippen would be ahead in just about every stats except scoring.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He never had a case? So all the newspaper articles etc just made that stuff up? Id be willing to bet that if you took away both players last two games (the ones where Pip was injured) Pippen would be ahead in just about every stats except scoring.

For the ENTIRE series? Nope. Not over Jordan, who was the most productive player in each and every finals he played in.

There is a reason he (Mike) is THE greatest player in NBA finals history.. The guy just raised his game when the stakes were high.

[juju151111]

He never had a case? So all the newspaper articles etc just made that stuff up? Id be willing to bet that if you took away both players last two games (the ones where Pip was injured) Pippen would be ahead in just about every stats except scoring.
What this case nonsense. MJ won the finals MVP all 6 times.

[97 bulls]

What this case nonsense. MJ won the finals MVP all 6 times.
Im not arguing whether or not he should've. What I do feel is that Pippen had a case before he got hurt in game 5. So which means he did have a case at some point in the series.

[TheMan]

:wtf: MJ was the unanimous winner of all regular season MVP votes in 1996. Moreover, as Psileas noted, MJ had not won the FMVP in 1994 or 1995 so it is odd to say the guy who won three straight from 1991-1993 and then again from 1996-1998 was a victim of "voter fatigue." No player in NBA history has had a more favorable press than MJ...



Where has that been argued? Are all MJ stans bereft of reading comprehension skills? No wonder they took the easy way out and simply jumped on the biggest bandwagon of all-time. :lol



Really? Is this why I was critical of LeBron in past years?

Another dense MJ stan who cannot think subtly.



:applause:



Maybe he should have "conserved" his energy on defense as the #3 or #4 defensive option. :lol



Yeah--until the final game of the first round when Collins inserted him into the starting line up, hoping for a spark; he had his best game of the year and the Bulls finally got out the first round...
Watch yer mouth cvnt, I've been a lifelong Bulls fan having been born in Chicago and following them as a kid along with my dad when Reggie Theus and Orlando Woolridge were their star players. Jordan is my fave all time player (Pip is #2 for me) because he brought us 6 NBA titles as the top player.

I don't even know what you're arguing, that GOAT players need help, well no shit Sherlock :facepalm

[97 bulls]

Scottie Pippen was not an all-star in the 87-88, 88-89, 90-91 season and especially the 97-98 season, when Jordan dragged his team to a three-peat in the Playoffs and took over Game 6 on the road against the Jazz while Pippen was struggling with his bad back...foh
This is the post that got this started. Is this really a fair assessment of what happened in the 98 playoffs and Finals?

[Black Mamba's B]

Espn works for Bron thought yall knew

[DJ Leon Smith]

Jordan never won a playoff series without another all star :roll:

Actually, he's one of the few players to win a NBA championship without another all-star on his team (Pippen wasn't an all-star for the Bulls first title year).

[TheMan]

Actually, he's one of the few players to win a NBA championship without another all-star on his team (Pippen wasn't an all-star for the Bulls first title year).
dubeta, prime example of Bran stan ignorance :oldlol:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Pippen is nearly as good as Jordan overall.
top 12-15 of all time:bowdown: :bowdown:

[OldSchoolBBall]

What is this revisionist history BS about Pippen being "ahead" of Jordan through game 5 in 1998 for Finals MVP? Nonsense. First 5 games:

Jordan: 31/5/3/43% FG

Pippen: 17/7/5/40% FG

Spare me talk of Pippen's "defensive impact" somehow making up that gap, as if Jordan wasn't an all-world defender himself.

[TheMan]

Pippen is nearly as good as Jordan overall.
top 12-15 of all time:bowdown: :bowdown:
How many MVPs, FMVPs or DPOYs does he have again?

Would love to see your top 15 GOAT for shits and giggles.

BTW, give me your top 15, seriously.

[97 bulls]

What is this revisionist history BS about Pippen being "ahead" of Jordan through game 5 in 1998 for Finals MVP? Nonsense. First 5 games:

Jordan: 31/5/3/43% FG

Pippen: 17/7/5/40% FG

Spare me talk of Pippen's "defensive impact" somehow making up that gap, as if Jordan wasn't an all-world defender himself.
Nobody said through game 5. Through game 4? Yes. And what is being revised? Were posting actual news clippings from many reputable sources around the US that stated Pippen was the front runner.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ was the #4 option on defense in that series. :oldlol: at all-world--he was not even the best defensive guard on his team at that point. Pippen played a linebacker employing a near zone defense (which was banned back then--so Pip would be even more dominant in the 2000's), Rodman took Malone, Harper took Stockton. MJ and Longley did the light defensive work.

[TheMan]

MJ was the #4 option on defense in that series. :oldlol: at all-world--he was not even the best defensive guard on his team at that point. Pippen played a linebacker employing a near zone defense (which was banned back then--so Pip would be even more dominant in the 2000's), Rodman took Malone, Harper took Stockton. MJ and Longley did the light defensive work.
Jordan was 35, he needed to conserve energy on defense because he carried the majority of the offensive load. Having said that, MJ still came up with GM 6 biggest defensive play :rockon:

Stay salty

[OldSchoolBBall]

Nobody said through game 5. Through game 4? Yes. And what is being revised? Were posting actual news clippings from many reputable sources around the US that stated Pippen was the front runner.

Still no:

Jordan's first 4 games: 32.0 pts/4.8 reb/2.3 ast/45% FG

Pippen's first 4: 20.0 pts/6.8 reb/3.5 ast/2.5 TO/47% FG

I don't give a shit what some article says (articles are frequently written in order to be "unique" or present a counterpoint to more prevalent opinion).

[OldSchoolBBall]

:oldlol: at all-world--he was not even the best defensive guard on his team at that point.

You're a joke. :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Remind me again who won the finals MVP those 3 years

Jordan. Now what does this have to do with the debate?

Worthless shit

[Andrei89]

Can we stop comparing these players like LeChoke to him already?

I'm talking to you, ESPN.


IF Lebron is "Lechoke"

what does that make Durant and Westbrook?

Lulz

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[juju151111]

Jordan. Now what does this have to do with the debate?

Worthless shit
Pointless ads debate. Pippen had 6 chances to perform better and couldn't not once.