Which Player Would You Rather Take?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Player A:

18p/7r/7a with 4 Turnovers on 54% TS 102 ortg, 110 drtg

Player B:

23p/3r/4a with 3.5 Turnovers on 46% TS 90 ortg, 108 drtg


If you had to pick one?

[Inferno]

Player A

[Deuce Bigalow]

Player B

[Legends66NBA7]

:lebronamazed: :kobe:

[JimmyMcAdocious]

B. But if either are my #1's then my team might as well tank for the top pick.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

B. But if either are my #1's then my team might as well tank for the top pick.
Agreed. Wouldn't want either but gun to my head i'd take A.

[Young X]

Statistically I would take player A, Lebron but the circumstances around Bron's series is what made it worse than Kobe's.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Statistically player A, Lebron was better but the circumstances around Bron's series is what made it worse than Kobe's.
Explain please. What circumstances?

[JellyBean]

Player A

[Mure]

Player A.

[Mr. Jabbar]

which ever can get it done without the need of 3 other hofers in their prime

[RoundMoundOfReb]

which ever can get it done without the need of 3 other hofers
Neither of them can.

Player A had 2 future HOF teammates on his team at the time

Player B had 3 future HOF teammates on his team at the time

[Milbuck]

They both sucked ass in different ways. Switch both of them and they both do substantially better. Lebron can defer to Shaq all he wants and be a playmaker rather than scorer, while Kobe can shoot all he wants against a much softer defense.

[outbreak]

Player A
But comparing stats like this is silly you need to factor in the team they are playing on and what role the team needs.

[Young X]

Explain please. What circumstances?Circumstances wasn't the right word but after all that happened the in the previous 12-13 months, for Lebron to fold like that was more embarrassing to me. They both played terrible and ineffective basketball but Kobe just played horrible, Lebron completely choked.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Circumstances wasn't the right word but after all that happened the in the previous 12-13 months, for Lebron to fold like that was more embarrassing to me. They both played terrible and ineffective basketball but Kobe just played horrible, Lebron completely choked.

I understand that LeBron had much more detractors in '11 than Kobe did in '04 and that's why it's a bigger deal to some, but that's exactly what the problem is. People aren't judging from a purely basketball POV. From a purely basketball POV Kobe's '04 performance should be criticized as much as LeBron's '11 but it isn't.

[chazzy]

I understand that LeBron had much more detractors in '11 than Kobe did in '04 and that's why it's a bigger deal to some, but that's exactly what the problem is. People aren't judging from a purely basketball POV. From a purely basketball POV Kobe's '04 performance should be criticized as much as LeBron's '11 but it isn't.
Probably because of their level of play prior to the finals. 04 wasn't a great year for Kobe in general - he shot 41% and 38.6% in two previous series, while Lebron dominated the EC. All the hype was about Lebron finally getting his first ring since he had the help to do it.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Probably because of their level of play prior to the finals. 04 wasn't a great year for Kobe in general - he shot 41% and 38.6% in two previous series, while Lebron dominated the EC. All the hype was about Lebron finally getting his first ring since he had the help to do it.

So because LeBron played better he deserves MORE criticism?...lol I'm not concerned with ESPN narrative. Only the game matters..


The only way I can see someone justify criticizing LeBron more than Kobe is if they concede that LeBron is a clearly better player and therefore should be held to a different standard than Kobe, otherwise it's just irrational.

[chazzy]

So because LeBron played better he deserves MORE criticism?...lol I'm not concerned with ESPN narrative. Only the game matters..


The only way I can see someone justify criticizing LeBron more than Kobe is if they concede that LeBron is a clearly better player and therefore should be held to a different standard than Kobe, otherwise it's just irrational.
Just explaining why the reactions were different. The bigger the dropoff from your previous play, the stronger the reaction imo.

[Sarcastic]

Not enough information to make an informed decision from your cherry picked stats.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Not enough information to make an informed decision from your cherry picked stats.
I posted all the typical stats. Should i post blocks and steals as well?

[Mure]

To be fair Kobe never felt even 10% of the scrutiny and hate LeBron did. LeBron has been held to a standard no other athlete in the history of sports has, and he has come through after his choke with 2 rings and fmvps.

Kobe's 04 series is obviously just as bad, he just was lucky to play before social media and to be gifted 3 chips with the most unstoppable force the league has ever seen.

[Sarcastic]

I posted all the typical stats. Should i post blocks and steals as well?


Need to see the context and role with which each plays on their team.



If all you are willing to give is random stats, can we at least see PER?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Need to see the context and role with which each plays on their team.



If all you are willing to give is random stats, can we at least see PER?
I can't find the PER and I don't know how to calculate it but i'm about 98% sure player A has the higher PER from looking at the numbers (PER is heavily reliant on ast/to ratio)

[Sarcastic]

I can't find the PER and I don't know how to calculate it but i'm about 98% sure player A has the higher PER from looking at the numbers (PER is heavily reliant on ast/to ratio)


http://www.basketball-reference.com/

[RoundMoundOfReb]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/
You can't find PER for a series from there.

[Sarcastic]

You can't find PER for a series from there.


What was each's game score then.

[bdreason]

Player A was considered the best player in the world.

Player B wasn't even the best player on his team.





And Kobe was crucified for his performance. People also blamed him for running off Shaq and Phil. Don't forget this was coming off his rape case in 2003 as well. It took Kobe years to rebuild his image.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

What was each's game score then.

Player A avg Games Score - 13.7

Player B avg Game Score - 11.6

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Player A was considered the best player in the world.

Player B wasn't even the best player on his team.


I agree with this and this is why I do criticize LeBron for 2011 moreso than Kobe for 2004



The only way I can see someone justify criticizing LeBron more than Kobe is if they concede that LeBron is a clearly better player and therefore should be held to a different standard than Kobe, otherwise it's just irrational.

But that isn't what most critics do. They still feel Kobe is better yet excuse him for an even worse finals showing.

[Prometheus]

I understand that LeBron had much more detractors in '11 than Kobe did in '04 and that's why it's a bigger deal to some, but that's exactly what the problem is. People aren't judging from a purely basketball POV. From a purely basketball POV Kobe's '04 performance should be criticized as much as LeBron's '11 but it isn't.

:applause:

I've always believed this. My first night as an ISH member was spent arguing with someone about this exact point.

[Jacks3]

Kobe played the best defense in history.

LeBron played a team that wasn't even top 5 in the league.

The 04 Finals weren't even remotely close. The Lakers lost by an average margin of 15 PPG.

The 2011 Finals was obviously much more competitive.

LeBron absolutely deserves more criticism. And acting like Kobe didn't get destroyed for that series is just laughable. He got just as much shit as LBJ did.

[Rose'sACL]

Kobe played the best defense in history.

LeBron played a team that wasn't even top 5 in the league.

The 04 Finals weren't even remotely close. The Lakers lost by an average margin of 15 PPG.

The 2011 Finals was obviously much more competitive.

LeBron absolutely deserves more criticism. And acting like Kobe didn't get destroyed for that series is just laughable. He got just as much shit as LBJ did.
stop making shit up. Kobe received about half as much hate as lebron did after 2011 choke. 2004 was just 10 years ago. i am sure everyone remembers it.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Kobe played the best defense in history.

LeBron played a team that wasn't even top 5 in the league.

The 04 Finals weren't even remotely close. The Lakers lost by an average margin of 15 PPG.

The 2011 Finals was obviously much more competitive.

LeBron absolutely deserves more criticism. And acting like Kobe didn't get destroyed for that series is just laughable. He got just as much shit as LBJ did.

So Kobe deserves less criticism because his team (who was a huge favorite going in to that series - Much bigger favs than Miami was vs Mavs) performed worse than LeBron's team did vs the Mavs. You're basically saying he deserves less criticism for a worse performance.

No Kobe didn't recieve the level of criticism LeBron did. He did get shitted on for chasing Shaq out though.

BTW, In my opinion neither deserve some extreme level of criticism since almost every great player has had a terrible series or 2. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy among a lot of posters and basketball fans i've come across.
:cheers:

[Legends66NBA7]

Kobe Bryant's performance is criticized a lot to this day. Many blame him for the series and for chasing O'Neal out of town. I remember media outlets did this a lot in 2004.

But it isn't remembered as LeBron James's because there are much more media outlets now and everything else over analyzed, as well different circumstances as mentioned already.

Both had bad series, but I can see why some people take Bryant's and some people take James's. Not really much worth arguing about.