The 90s didn't have dominant wing players besides Jordan

[rlsmooth775]

Clyde drexler started to decline after 1992 Reggie miller was never a superstar Grant Hill didn't do much wasn't that great even before the injuries same with Penny

[Milbuck]

What that decade lacked in dominant wing players, it compensated for with dominant big men. I don't care if Clyde Drexler wasn't in his prime...Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Zo, etc. all in one decade is just absurd.

[L.Kizzle]

-Drexler was still an All-Star and All-NBA team member in the mid-late 90s.
-Scottie Pippen helped MJ to 6 titles
-Mitch Richmond made all 6 of his all-star/5 all-nba teams between 1992 and 1998
-Chris Mullin was All-NBA first team in 1992 and a Dream Team member that same years.
-Reggie Miller = Playoff Superhero
-Hill and Penny were the new dominant up and coming wing players that were supposed to take the league into the next millenium but it ended up being other young wing players doing so n Kobe (96 draft), McGrady (97 draft) and Vince Carter (98 draft.)

[rlsmooth775]

-Drexler was still an All-Star and All-NBA team member in the mid-late 90s.
-Scottie Pippen helped MJ to 6 titles
-Mitch Richmond made all 6 of his all-star/5 all-nba teams between 1992 and 1998
-Chris Mullin was All-NBA first team in 1992 and a Dream Team member that same years.
-Hill and Penny were the new dominant up and coming wing players that were supposed to take the league into the next millenium but it ended up being other young wing players doing so n Kobe (96 draft), McGrady (97 draft) and Vince Carter (98 draft.)


I wouldn't call any of those guys superstars

[rlsmooth775]

What that decade lacked in dominant wing players, it compensated for with dominant big men. I don't care if Clyde Drexler wasn't in his prime...Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Zo, etc. all in one decade is just absurd.

Patrick David and alonzo weren't to dominant in the playoffs

[Duggrr]

92' Drexler in today's league - top 3
90's Pippen in today's league - top 5
92' Mullin in today's league - top 10

Dumars, Richmond

The other guys already stated. I'd say Penny and Hill were special players for a short while.

[DonDadda59]

It was a big man's league. There were plenty of good-great perimeter guys (as others have listed). The NBA didn't skew things in favor of perimeter players until the decade was over. Kobe, a dominant wing in the no touching/3 sec violation era, played in the NBA from 1996-2000. That's just under half the decade.

He was neither dominant nor efficient then. :lol

[Duggrr]

I wouldn't call any of those guys superstars
:biggums:

[rlsmooth775]

92' Drexler in today's league - top 3
90's Pippen in today's league - top 5
92' Mullin in today's league - top 10

Dumars, Richmond

The other guys already stated. I'd say Penny and Hill were special players for a short while.

this is a thread about the 90s

[rlsmooth775]

:biggums:

You have low standards for superstars

[Duggrr]

You have low standards for superstars
Drexler and Pippen IMO.

[1987_Lakers]

-Drexler was still an All-Star and All-NBA team member in the mid-late 90s.
-Scottie Pippen helped MJ to 6 titles
-Mitch Richmond made all 6 of his all-star/5 all-nba teams between 1992 and 1998
-Chris Mullin was All-NBA first team in 1992 and a Dream Team member that same years.
-Reggie Miller = Playoff Superhero
-Hill and Penny were the new dominant up and coming wing players that were supposed to take the league into the next millenium but it ended up being other young wing players doing so n Kobe (96 draft), McGrady (97 draft) and Vince Carter (98 draft.)

Please, Drexler was done being an elite player after '92. Penny had potential but it didn't work out. The next best guards after Jordan were just good All-Stars, not superstars.

[DonDadda59]

Dominant no touching/3 second violation era wings who played in the 90s:

Kobe Bryant (Drafted 1996): 16/4/3 (45% FG) in the 90s
Ray Allen (Drafted 1996): 18/4/4 (44% FG) in the 90s
Allen Iverson (Drafted 1996): 25/4/6 (43% FG) in the 90s
Tracy McGrady (Drafted 1997): 11/6/3 (45% FG) in the 90s

^With the exception of Iverson, who wasn't that great anyway, those guys benefitted GREATLY by playing in a much softer era for perimeter players after being subject to the sort of defense Jordan played under the vast majority of his career.

Now compare their production in the Jordan era to the 2000s era (especially around the middle of the decade).

[LongLiveTheKing]

Dominant no touching/3 second violation era wings who played in the 90s:

Kobe Bryant (Drafted 1996): 16/4/3 (45% FG) in the 90s
Ray Allen (Drafted 1996): 18/4/4 (44% FG) in the 90s
Allen Iverson (Drafted 1996): 25/4/6 (43% FG) in the 90s
Tracy McGrady (Drafted 1997): 11/6/3 (45% FG) in the 90s

^With the exception of Iverson, who wasn't that great anyway, those guys benefitted GREATLY by playing in a much softer era for perimeter players after being subject to the sort of defense Jordan played under the vast majority of his career.

Now compare their production in the Jordan era to the 2000s era (especially around the middle of the decade).
In the 2000's
MJ- 21.6/5.9/4.5/
Pippen- 10.2/4.8/4.4

[DonDadda59]

In the 2000's
MJ- 21.6/5.9/4.5/
Pippen- 10.2/4.8/4.4

1) Pippen was never really dominant, he spent most of his time in the 90s as a 2nd option and then a 3rd option. By the time he got to Portland, he was like the 4th or 5th option. And he was 35-38...

2) Name me another 38-40 year old perimeter player who put up that type of production (including multiple 40 and 50 point games) that MJ did. :lol

He didn't even get a chance to play post summer of '05 rule changes, probably would've put up his 2nd 3-peat numbers under those circumstances.

As weak of an 'argument' as I've seen. I show you young-prime players, you give me grandfathers. Nice try though :cheers:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

What that decade lacked in dominant wing players, it compensated for with dominant big men. I don't care if Clyde Drexler wasn't in his prime...Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Zo, etc. all in one decade is just absurd.
this

[Rose'sACL]

Dominant no touching/3 second violation era wings who played in the 90s:

Kobe Bryant (Drafted 1996): 16/4/3 (45% FG) in the 90s
Ray Allen (Drafted 1996): 18/4/4 (44% FG) in the 90s
Allen Iverson (Drafted 1996): 25/4/6 (43% FG) in the 90s
Tracy McGrady (Drafted 1997): 11/6/3 (45% FG) in the 90s

^With the exception of Iverson, who wasn't that great anyway, those guys benefitted GREATLY by playing in a much softer era for perimeter players after being subject to the sort of defense Jordan played under the vast majority of his career.

Now compare their production in the Jordan era to the 2000s era (especially around the middle of the decade).
That poido123 guy once wrote that you have a lot of basketball knowledge. i have no idea how you could write that garbage with so much knowledge.Why are you including first couple of years for their stats to compare them to players in the 90s ? Mcgrady didn't even start all his game till 2000.
Ray allen(1999-00): 22.1-4.4-3.8 on 57%TS(drafted in 1996)
Tracy McGrady(2001):27-7.5-4.6 on 52% TS(first season he started all the games)
Allen iverson(3rd season: 98-99)-26.8-4.9-4.6 on 51%TS
Kobe Bryant(2000-01:first time he got 40+mins avg playing time): 28.5-5.9-5 on 54.4% TS
Don't let me catch you again.

[atljonesbro]

Why do we give Jordan a pass on this? Such a massive lack of talent. He never really had to face anyone good.

[j3lademaster]

I'd rather play against dominant wing players than dominant bigs in a more physical era with no 3 second paint rule on D.

[Rose'sACL]

1) Pippen was never really dominant, he spent most of his time in the 90s as a 2nd option and then a 3rd option. By the time he got to Portland, he was like the 4th or 5th option. And he was 35-38...

2) Name me another 38-40 year old perimeter player who put up that type of production (including multiple 40 and 50 point games) that MJ did. :lol

He didn't even get a chance to play post summer of '05 rule changes, probably would've put up his 2nd 3-peat numbers under those circumstances.

As weak of an 'argument' as I've seen. I show you young-prime players, you give me grandfathers. Nice try though :cheers:
you skewed the stats for those players by including first couple of seasons when they entered the league and compared them to stats average for whole careers of 90s players. He did to you what you were trying to do by using first couple of seasons for those players when they were new to the league and some didn't even get much mins. also, thread was about dominant wing players and not player who averaged same stats as MJ.
You didn't post prime stats for any player in your post.

[jstern]

Career years for perimeter players after the rule changes. Imagine if the rule changes happened say in 1990.

[GimmeThat]

I'd rather play against dominant wing players than dominant bigs in a more physical era with no 3 second paint rule on D.

why? It doesn't really matter. because the Pistons had the "Jordan rule" whatever that meant since I was too young to watch basketball

then there's the Spurs defense against Lebron James. whatever that means, because I'm a few weeks away to make "The Decision" on whether or not Lebron is a legitimate all time greats.

Jordan Dominated the 1-3 positions during his era, and I'd make the argument that not until the arrival of Pippen did he help kept the 4 position in check and somewhat cancel out the effect of dominant big mens.

If I told you Lebron would make Melo look like Drexler.

Would you say I have low standards for superstar?



Yes, Kobe beat out an a young Magic team, tied with his 96 draft class in a 2010-2011 rematch both late as hell in their career.

Only when you look at the differences in roster. Even Ray Allen would have to give Kobe praises. Maybe that's something KG and Ray Allen could agree on.



NOT HAPPENING

[tpols]

The second most dominant wing player from the 90s decade was MJ's teammate.. go figure

[DonDadda59]

you skewed the stats for those players by including first couple of seasons when they entered the league and compared them to stats average for whole careers of 90s players. He did to you what you were trying to do by using first couple of seasons for those players when they were new to the league and some didn't even get much mins. also, thread was about dominant wing players and not player who averaged same stats as MJ.
You didn't post prime stats for any player in your post.

Get off my nuts you clown. Just look at Bron's stats in the era of inflated perimeter stats compared to Kobe's. Both guys came out of high school, so you can cry all you want about 'skewed' numbers, but the facts look like this:

Kobe in his third year playing in the 90s: 19.9 PPG (46.5% FG)/5 RPG/4 APG

Lebron in his third year playing in the 00s: 31.4 PPG (48% FG)/7 RPG/7APG

^That was the season that several perimeter guys, including guys who were drafted in the mid 90s, suspiciously had career years where their scoring sky rocketed. Wonder what happened :lol

'04-'05 Scoring Leaders
1) Allen Iverson 30.7
2) Kobe Bryant 27.6
3) LeBron James 27.2
4) Dirk Nowitzki 26.1
5) Amar'e Stoudemire 26

'05-'06 Scoring Leaders
1) Kobe Bryant 35.4
2) Allen Iverson 33
3) LeBron James 31.4
4) Gilbert Arenas 29.5
5) Dwyane Wade 27.2

Must've been something in the drinking water in the Summer of '05 :roll:

Now compare that to 10+ years earlier

'94-'95 Scoring Leaders
1) Shaquille O'Neal 29.3
2) Hakeem Olajuwon 27.8
3) David Robinson 27.6
4) Karl Malone 26.7
5) Jamal Mashburn 24.1

'95-'96 Scoring Leaders
1) Michael Jordan 30.6
2) Hakeem Olajuwon 26.9
3) SHaquille O'Neal 26.6
4) Karl Malone 25.7
5) David Robinson 25

Notice how the smallest player in the top 5 from the 90s not named Jordan was the 6'8 250 lbs Mashburn. Meanwhile the 5'11" 165 lbs Iverson was putting up 33 PPG :lol I shudder to think about the sort of destruction Jordan would've wrecked getting that sort of leg up from the league. Would've been disgusting to witness.

Go to sleep.

[tpols]

^Lebron James is the exception, not the rule.. He was 240 all muscle built right out of H.S. and could bang with NBA sized players from the start.. Most players straight out of high school have to develop physically their first few years in the league before they can take off

case in point.. KG, tmac and kobe all took a few years to develop.


What is this notion that 1997 kobe bryant or mac were as good as they were 5 years later?? Its night and day ability wise.. they blossomed into way better players than they came into the league as.

[DonDadda59]

^Lebron James is the exception, not the rule.. He was 240 all muscle built right out of H.S. and could bang with NBA sized players from the start.. Most players straight out of high school have to develop physically their first few years in the league before they can take off

case in point.. KG, tmac and kobe all took a few years to develop.


What is this notion that 1997 kobe bryant or mac were as good as they were 5 years later?? Its night and day ability wise.. they blossomed into way better players than they came into the league as.

LeBron had his career best scoring year following the summer of '05 rule changes. So did Kobe (drafted 96), Iverson (drafted 96), Arenas, Allen (drafted 96), and a few others (we all know how the finals went). Bron also blossomed into a way better player, he didn't even have a jumper back then but he was putting up 31.4 PPG in his third year out of high school. Meanwhile Bean, who at the same exact time would also have a career scoring year 10 years after he was drafted, couldn't deal with the physicality of the 90s.

The 00s on were/are clearly more ideal for perimeter players than the 90s were. Guys can go on about 'advanced defense' or whatever other bullshit they can pull out of their ass, but the facts show this, clearly.

Jordan dominated an era that was geared towards dominant big men, not making it easy for wing players to score, and he played against the greatest collection of dominant bigs arguably of any era. Just look at who was winning the championship, MVP, scoring title, etc when he stepped away momentarily in the middle of the decade. It wasn't 5'11 shooting guards putting up 33 PPG :lol

Anyway, this shit is played out. Dadda out.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img337/1946/sexualchocolate.gif

[BlazerRed]

Get off my nuts you clown. Just look at Bron's stats in the era of inflated perimeter stats compared to Kobe's. Both guys came out of high school, so you can cry all you want about 'skewed' numbers, but the facts look like this:

Kobe in his third year playing in the 90s: 19.9 PPG (46.5% FG)/5 RPG/4 APG

Lebron in his third year playing in the 00s: 31.4 PPG (48% FG)/7 RPG/7APG

^That was the season that several perimeter guys, including guys who were drafted in the mid 90s, suspiciously had career years where their scoring sky rocketed. Wonder what happened :lol

'04-'05 Scoring Leaders
1) Allen Iverson 30.7
2) Kobe Bryant 27.6
3) LeBron James 27.2
4) Dirk Nowitzki 26.1
5) Amar'e Stoudemire 26

'05-'06 Scoring Leaders
1) Kobe Bryant 35.4
2) Allen Iverson 33
3) LeBron James 31.4
4) Gilbert Arenas 29.5
5) Dwyane Wade 27.2

Must've been something in the drinking water in the Summer of '05 :roll:

Now compare that to 10+ years earlier

'94-'95 Scoring Leaders
1) Shaquille O'Neal 29.3
2) Hakeem Olajuwon 27.8
3) David Robinson 27.6
4) Karl Malone 26.7
5) Jamal Mashburn 24.1

'95-'96 Scoring Leaders
1) Michael Jordan 30.6
2) Hakeem Olajuwon 26.9
3) SHaquille O'Neal 26.6
4) Karl Malone 25.7
5) David Robinson 25

Notice how the smallest player in the top 5 from the 90s not named Jordan was the 6'8 250 lbs Mashburn. Meanwhile the 5'11" 165 lbs Iverson was putting up 33 PPG :lol I shudder to think about the sort of destruction Jordan would've wrecked getting that sort of leg up from the league. Would've been disgusting to witness.

Go to sleep.
:applause:

[Rose'sACL]

^Lebron James is the exception, not the rule.. He was 240 all muscle built right out of H.S. and could bang with NBA sized players from the start.. Most players straight out of high school have to develop physically their first few years in the league before they can take off

case in point.. KG, tmac and kobe all took a few years to develop.


What is this notion that 1997 kobe bryant or mac were as good as they were 5 years later?? Its night and day ability wise.. they blossomed into way better players than they came into the league as.
he used first 2 seasons of AI, McGrady, allen to make his point and when i call him out on it he goes on another route altogether. He thinks that lebron would struggle in the 80s or 90s when he would benefit more from the freedom on offensive end without worrying about offensive fouls as much as he does now given how big he is for a win player.
Kobe would have been the second best wing player along with pippen in the 90s.
Second best wing player in the 90s was playing on Jordan's team.
Kobe has the moves to play in any era and lebron has the body to play in any era. pre-2012 Wade would also have been a superstar in the 90s or any other decade.

[deja vu]

OP was a toddler in the 90s, so let's be kind to him.

[aj1987]

^Lebron James is the exception, not the rule.. He was 240 all muscle built right out of H.S. and could bang with NBA sized players from the start.. Most players straight out of high school have to develop physically their first few years in the league before they can take off

case in point.. KG, tmac and kobe all took a few years to develop.


What is this notion that 1997 kobe bryant or mac were as good as they were 5 years later?? Its night and day ability wise.. they blossomed into way better players than they came into the league as.
No point in arguing with that dude. Apparently, you needed a broken bone or torn ligament to get a FT in the '90's. Also, if a current player ever dared to drive into the lane, they would apparently end up in the ER.

'90's = GOAT era, where scoring was literally impossible unless you were a god. All of today's players would be role-players, at best, in the '90's.

[Rose'sACL]

LeBron had his career best scoring year following the summer of '05 rule changes. So did Kobe (drafted 96), Iverson (drafted 96), Arenas, Allen (drafted 96), and a few others (we all know how the finals went). Bron also blossomed into a way better player, he didn't even have a jumper back then but he was putting up 31.4 PPG in his third year out of high school. Meanwhile Bean, who at the same exact time would also have a career scoring year 10 years after he was drafted, couldn't deal with the physicality of the 90s.

The 00s on were/are clearly more ideal for perimeter players than the 90s were. Guys can go on about 'advanced defense' or whatever other bullshit they can pull out of their ass, but the facts show this, clearly.

Jordan dominated an era that was geared towards dominant big men, not making it easy for wing players to score, and he played against the greatest collection of dominant bigs arguably of any era. Just look at who was winning the championship, MVP, scoring title, etc when he stepped away momentarily in the middle of the decade. It wasn't 5'11 shooting guards putting up 33 PPG :lol

Anyway, this shit is played out. Dadda out.


first couple of seasons when rules changed were the ones where refs were confused about what to call a foul and i don't care if you use them against those players. Refs changed how they called fouls in 06 and now it is night and day compared to that season when it comes to calling fouls.
Lebron would have been top 3 player in the league in any era with a body like his. Same for durant. He would at least be a top 5 player in the league if not top 3 in any era. His height and shooting would have been a mismatch in any era.

[Rose'sACL]

OP was a toddler in the 90s, so let's be kind to him.
he is not wrong though. No one disputes that htere were great big men in the 90s.

[bizil]

-Drexler was still an All-Star and All-NBA team member in the mid-late 90s.
-Scottie Pippen helped MJ to 6 titles
-Mitch Richmond made all 6 of his all-star/5 all-nba teams between 1992 and 1998
-Chris Mullin was All-NBA first team in 1992 and a Dream Team member that same years.
-Reggie Miller = Playoff Superhero
-Hill and Penny were the new dominant up and coming wing players that were supposed to take the league into the next millenium but it ended up being other young wing players doing so n Kobe (96 draft), McGrady (97 draft) and Vince Carter (98 draft.)

Great points! And Dominique as late as 1994 was putting up 26 a night. I just think that the Golden Era of SG's in the 2000s with Kobe, AI, Wade, T-Mac, Ray Allen, Vince,and Ginobli combined with guys like Pierce and Lebron, who played often in the backcourt, made the previous era in 90's look like a lack of depth at the SG and SF. Which I can see, but I wouldn't go so far to say that MJ was the only dominant wing in the 90's.

[Black Mamba's B]

he used first 2 seasons of AI, McGrady, allen to make his point and when i call him out on it he goes on another route altogether. He thinks that lebron would struggle in the 80s or 90s when he would benefit more from the freedom on offensive end without worrying about offensive fouls as much as he does now given how big he is for a win player.
Kobe would have been the second best wing player along with pippen in the 90s.
Second best wing player in the 90s was playing on Jordan's team.
Kobe has the moves to play in any era and lebron has the body to play in any era. pre-2012 Wade would also have been a superstar in the 90s or any other decade.
The thread starter is a ***

[MiseryCityTexas]

Clyde drexler started to decline after 1992 Reggie miller was never a superstar Grant Hill didn't do much wasn't that great even before the injuries same with Penny


Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell, Allan Houston, and Grant Hill's not a shooting guard dumbass.

[MiseryCityTexas]

I wouldn't call any of those guys superstars

Chris Mullin, Mitch Richmond, and Grant Hill weren't superstars? Someone desperately needs to neg rep this guy ASAP.

[Micku]

Why do we give Jordan a pass on this? Such a massive lack of talent. He never really had to face anyone good.

He did. Finals 1991 and 1992. Magic (GOAT PG) and Clyde (one of the top SG in history). Destroyed both of them in performance, lol, lol.

Nah, but seriously tho. He did face Magic and Clyde in the Finals. Magic was still great, and second MVP race and won MVP the prior year. Clyde was great, second MVP to race. In the 80s he faced against a lot more stars perimeter in Isiah Thomas, Wilkins, Bird, Magic, Clyde, Worthy and etc in their prime.

In the 90s, not as much stars on the perimeter except for PGs like Payton, KJ, Penny, Tim Hardaway, Stockton, Mark Price and etc. There are a lot of under appreciated ones like Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell, and Drazen Petrovic (short career, rip), and Glen Rice. You still had Mullen and Grant Hill too. But the competition itself isn't that fascinating as much seeing how well could MJ defend those star guys in the early 00s tho. I'm only interested to see MJ defense on those guys. I don't care for the offense cuz they won't stop MJ offensively. Tho MJ is more of a beast with his help defense.

[Soundwave]

Broke knees 40 year old Jordan was able to drop 20 a night still in a league with Kobe, Iverson, T-Mac, Carter, etc.

I don't think it would've made much of a difference in terms of MJ getting his.

What that era lacked in direct wing competetion is compensated for by the fact that the center/PF positions were waaaaaaaaaaay stronger.

Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, DRob, Zo, Mutombo, Lambieer, Parish ... then at the PF spot, Barkley, Malone, Kemp, etc.

[Soundwave]

Also for all the hype ... what great perimeter players have LeBron James and Kobe Bryant beaten in the playoffs?

LeBron's never played against Wade or Kobe in the post-season.

Kobe had 5'11 Iverson once earlier in his career where he was a clear no.2 banana and Iverson was more a PG/SG hybrid.

LeBron beat a raw Durant. MJ got prime Drexler. I think Kobe's most direct comp was maybe Carmelo that the Lakers beat up on in Denver?

Jordan has faced Drexler, Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Joe Dumars, Steve Smith, Glen Rice, Reggie Miller, Gary Payton and beaten them all in playoff series, many of those wins coming later in his career when he had lost a step.

Kobe/LeBron/Wade/prime T-Mac ... none of these guys really have had to play against each other in the playoffs.

Career wise Kobe's main adversary in the playoffs seems to be Manu Ginobli, LeBron's is maybe Paul Pierce ... those are the guys they're usually playing most in the playoffs.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

When MJ started winning rings there was only one other wingplayer who was a superstar.
And that guy was on his own team:coleman:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

He did. Finals 1991 and 1992. Magic (GOAT PG) and Clyde (one of the top SG in history). Destroyed both of them in performance, lol, lol.

Nah, but seriously tho. He did face Magic and Clyde in the Finals. Magic was still great, and second MVP race and won MVP the prior year. Clyde was great, second MVP to race. In the 80s he faced against a lot more stars perimeter in Isiah Thomas, Wilkins, Bird, Magic, Clyde, Worthy and etc in their prime.

In the 90s, not as much stars on the perimeter except for PGs like Payton, KJ, Penny, Tim Hardaway, Stockton, Mark Price and etc. There are a lot of under appreciated ones like Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell, and Drazen Petrovic (short career, rip), and Glen Rice. You still had Mullen and Grant Hill too. But the competition itself isn't that fascinating as much seeing how well could MJ defend those star guys in the early 00s tho. I'm only interested to see MJ defense on those guys. I don't care for the offense cuz they won't stop MJ offensively. Tho MJ is more of a beast with his help defense.
Magics team was washed up:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Sarcastic]

Magics team was washed up:roll: :roll: :roll:



Magic Johnson was 31 years old in 1991, and better than any player on this years Spurs team BY FAR!



BY FAR!!!!

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Magic Johnson was 31 years old in 1991, and better than any player on this years Spurs team BY FAR!



BY FAR!!!!
i

[TheCorporation]

his career when he had lost a step.

Kobe/LeBron/Wade/prime T-Mac ... none of these guys really have had to play against each other in the playoffs.


LBJ beat down Paul George and Lance Stephenson 3 straight years.
He battled Paul Pierce
Beat down MVP Derek Rose and All-Star Luol Deng
Beat down Durant, Westbrook and Harden when they were all three together
Beat down Melo
Beat down Spurs (Leonard/Parker?)

etc.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

LBJ beat down Paul George and Lance Stephenson 3 straight years.
He battled Paul Pierce
Beat down MVP Derek Rose and All-Star Luol Deng
Beat down Durant, Westbrook and Harden when they were all three together
Beat down Melo
Beat down Spurs (Leonard/Parker?)

etc.
Da ETHER:coleman:

[Sarcastic]

LBJ beat down Paul George and Lance Stephenson 3 straight years.
He battled Paul Pierce
Beat down MVP Derek Rose and All-Star Luol Deng
Beat down Durant, Westbrook and Harden when they were all three together
Beat down Melo
Beat down Spurs (Leonard/Parker?)

etc.


Never did any of that until he left Cleveland for Miami. Couldn't even beat Pierce until he got help.

[Micku]

Magic Johnson was 31 years old in 1991, and better than any player on this years Spurs team BY FAR!



BY FAR!!!!

The 1991 Magic could be argued to be a top 3 player today. He would be the best PG of the league today.

And Clyde would be the best SG today I think.

[diamenz]

The 10's don't have dominant big players besides hibbert. :eek:

80's and early 90's had minimal three point shooting resulting in clogged lanes and a packed paint.

[iBandwagon]

Still better than the SGs of today's game. People called James Harden the best SG all season until the playoffs :oldlol:

[andgar923]

It was a big man's league. There were plenty of good-great perimeter guys (as others have listed). The NBA didn't skew things in favor of perimeter players until the decade was over. Kobe, a dominant wing in the no touching/3 sec violation era, played in the NBA from 1996-2000. That's just under half the decade.

He was neither dominant nor efficient then. :lol

basically this.

The league's rules and the history of the game up until that point was mostly dominated by bigs overall. Not because the guards weren't good enough, but because the style of play was different due to the rules.

Give today's rules to past eras, and you'll see perimeter scoring blossom.

[andgar923]

I wouldn't call any of those guys superstars
Superstars are manufactured by the league and sponsors. The league tried to push for more wing players to fill the MJ void. Which is why we saw a "Next MJ" label being tossed around very loosely after he retired.

With today's rules people like Spreewell becomes a franchise player, Stacey Augmon is a perennial All Star, etc etc.

With today's marketing hype they become 'Superstars'.

[AirFederer]

http://niketalk.com/content/type/61/id/735210/flags/LL

[tontoz]

I wouldn't call any of those guys superstars



I wouldn't call James Harden a superstar either.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Please, Drexler was done being an elite player after '92.

Drexler 1995 playoffs: 21/7/5/48% FG

Paul George, '14 playoffs: 23/8/4/44% FG

Wade, '14 playoffs: 19/4/4/52% FG

Yet these guys are superstars and Drexler wasn't after '92. Okay.

[LeBird]

Drexler 1995 playoffs: 21/7/5/48% FG

Paul George, '14 playoffs: 23/8/4/44% FG

Wade, '14 playoffs: 19/4/4/52% FG

Yet these guys are superstars and Drexler wasn't after '92. Okay.

You've made his point for him.

George isn't a bonafide star and Wade is on his way down.

Drexler was really good in 95, but was he elite? Nope.

[OldSchoolBBall]

wrong topic

[OldSchoolBBall]

You've made his point for him.

George isn't a bonafide star and Wade is on his way down.

Drexler was really good in 95, but was he elite? Nope.

Yet most people have both in their top 5-10 lists for this season.

[andgar923]

What is this revisionist history BS about Pippen being "ahead" of Jordan through game 5 in 1998 for Finals MVP? Nonsense. First 5 games:

Jordan: 31/5/3/43% FG

Pippen: 17/7/5/40% FG

Spare me talk of Pippen's "defensive impact" somehow making up that gap, as if Jordan wasn't an all-world defender himself.

Pip was roaming for the most part, while Mj had to run all over/fight through screens to play Reggie, Jalen and Mullin for the vast majority of the time. Who did Pip guard for the most part? Mark Jackson :facepalm

Not to say Pip's defense wasn't one of the keys for their victory.

But MJ also had to guard Mark, Best and switch/help on the bigs along with carry the offensive load. Pip just had to make sure to give the ball to MJ :confusedshrug:

[TheMan]

Get off my nuts you clown. Just look at Bron's stats in the era of inflated perimeter stats compared to Kobe's. Both guys came out of high school, so you can cry all you want about 'skewed' numbers, but the facts look like this:

Kobe in his third year playing in the 90s: 19.9 PPG (46.5% FG)/5 RPG/4 APG

Lebron in his third year playing in the 00s: 31.4 PPG (48% FG)/7 RPG/7APG

^That was the season that several perimeter guys, including guys who were drafted in the mid 90s, suspiciously had career years where their scoring sky rocketed. Wonder what happened :lol

'04-'05 Scoring Leaders
1) Allen Iverson 30.7
2) Kobe Bryant 27.6
3) LeBron James 27.2
4) Dirk Nowitzki 26.1
5) Amar'e Stoudemire 26

'05-'06 Scoring Leaders
1) Kobe Bryant 35.4
2) Allen Iverson 33
3) LeBron James 31.4
4) Gilbert Arenas 29.5
5) Dwyane Wade 27.2

Must've been something in the drinking water in the Summer of '05 :roll:

Now compare that to 10+ years earlier

'94-'95 Scoring Leaders
1) Shaquille O'Neal 29.3
2) Hakeem Olajuwon 27.8
3) David Robinson 27.6
4) Karl Malone 26.7
5) Jamal Mashburn 24.1

'95-'96 Scoring Leaders
1) Michael Jordan 30.6
2) Hakeem Olajuwon 26.9
3) SHaquille O'Neal 26.6
4) Karl Malone 25.7
5) David Robinson 25

Notice how the smallest player in the top 5 from the 90s not named Jordan was the 6'8 250 lbs Mashburn. Meanwhile the 5'11" 165 lbs Iverson was putting up 33 PPG :lol I shudder to think about the sort of destruction Jordan would've wrecked getting that sort of leg up from the league. Would've been disgusting to witness.

Go to sleep.
Holy shit, Don tore Rose'sACL a new one :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

On 90's wing players, let's use Bill Simmon's list as an external list compiled by a basketball historian to present an objective view of 90's wing players. Players are classified as 90's players if they spent much of, or a significant part of their prime, in the 90's. This excludes Magic who played one full season in the 90's, Bird, who played two non-prime seasons, Isiah, Nash, Iverson and Kobe. Here is how he ranked the ones not named MJ.

24 Pippen
25 Stockton
41 Payton
43 Kidd
44 Drexler
55 Wilkins
63 Miller
74 Dumars
82 Mullin
93 K. Johnson

Here is the list for SG's only:

44 Drexler
63 Miller
74 Dumars

So at MJ's position he faced no top 40 player, one top 60 player and only three top 90 players. Moreover, the top wing player happened to be his own teammate.

You might notice something else about this list: Stockton, Payton, Kidd, Drexler, Mullin, Johnson were all in the West. That left Pippen (#24), Wilkins (#55), Miller (#63),, and Dumars (#74) in the East. No wonder #1 and #24 dominated the decade!

Here is how I would classify these players:

GOAT caliber: MJ
Superstar caliber: Pippen, Drexler (for 1991 and 1992), Penny (1995 and 1996), Hill (1996-1999)
All-star caliber: Stockton, Payton, Miller, Dumars, Wilkins, Johnson, 90's Kidd

Drexler was the best direct competition MJ faced, and that was in one series. MJ destroyed him in a year where Drexler was the runner-up to MJ in the MVP race. MJ's dominance of him has become part of NBA lore, similar to Hakeem's domination of Robinson in the 95' WCF. One problem with this fairy tale, folks: Drexler had a bum knee at the time...Yeah, so the one time MJ faced legitimate competition at SG the other guy's knee was shot. Think about it: Drexler, who as noted previously was second in the MVP vote in 1992, only made one all-NBA team (the third team in 1995) after 1992. His prime was cut short by his knee.

Another thing about Drexler is that he was the "add-on" to the Dream Team. The first 10 players were selected after the 1991 season--Drexler was not rated highly enough to make the cut. Due to his performance in 1992, by far his best season (his one all-NBA first team year), he was added. The first three wing players selected for the Dream Team, in order, were Jordan, Magic, and Pippen (so 2 of the 3 were on the same team).

Miller? He was the Ray Allen of the 90's: a perennial all-star but never a MVP candidate and an all-NBA third team player in his best years.

Richmond? The second best SG for the entirety of the 90's--too bad he spent his best years on the worst teams in the league.

Dumars? A consistent all-star but never a top-tier player.

One can only play what is in front of you and MJ excelled at that. Still, he played in a weak era for wing players in general and SG's in particular. It was another example of his exquisite timing (he spent his prime during the period between the decline of the 80's dynasties and before the rise of the 00's Lakers and Spurs): had he come along a decade later he would have been in a strong era for SG's and perimeter player.

[Rose'sACL]

Holy shit, Don tore Rose'sACL a new one :oldlol:
he used rookie and sophomore seasons of the players who went on to become star or superstars. I called him out on it and like he always does, he ignored it completely and went in another direction like a woman who is losing an argument.
Kobe and wade(pre-2012) are better than any wing player jordan played against in the 90s. 91 Magic was probably the closest to those two.

[fatboy11]

Clyde drexler started to decline after 1992 Reggie miller was never a superstar Grant Hill didn't do much wasn't that great even before the injuries same with Penny

Fair point, actually. There were obviously really good wings and All-Star wings, but the '90s was the decade of the center.

[TheMan]

MJ played in an era of dominant big men, the rules favored bigs and still he dominated. If 5'11" Iverson could score 33 PPG after the perimeter friendly rule changes, I don't think Mike would have much trouble at all in the 00's...

[TheMan]

he used rookie and sophomore seasons of the players who went on to become star or superstars. I called him out on it and like he always does, he ignored it completely and went in another direction like a woman who is losing an argument.
Kobe and wade(pre-2012) are better than any wing player jordan played against in the 90s. 91 Magic was probably the closest to those two.
Interesting, you don't think the rule changes had nothing to do with guys 10 years into their careers having career years :confusedshrug:

[Rose'sACL]

MJ played in an era of dominant big men, the rules favored bigs and still he dominated. If 5'11" Iverson could score 33 PPG after the perimeter friendly rule changes, I don't think Mike would have much trouble at all in the 00's...
AI did it on poor FG%. Although i am more than sure that if AI played in the 80s or early 90s, you'd say that players back then had so much skill and heart that even a 5'11" player could score 33PPG.

[Rose'sACL]

Interesting, you don't think the rule changes had nothing to do with guys 10 years into their careers having career years :confusedshrug:
i did actually. read the post. i admitted that rule changes lead to inflated stats in 05-06 season but refs slowly learned how to ref without giving 20 FTA per game to good attackers.

[TheMan]

AI did it on poor FG%. Although i am more than sure that if AI played in the 80s or early 90s, you'd say that players back then had so much skill and heart that even a 5'11" player could score 33PPG.
Not really, every era has it's strengths and weaknesses.

[rlsmooth775]

I wouldn't call James Harden a superstar either.

I dont think anyone does

[tontoz]

I dont think anyone does


Who are the superstar 2s now? Wade is oft injured and clearly in decline. Kobe could be done. The 2 spot is pretty weak right now.

[Dragonyeuw]

I'm not quite sure why this continues to be a bullet point argument to diminish Jordan. MJ excelled in an era that wasn't tailor-made for athletic wing players to flourish, and still dominated. Just as his era was so called 'weak' for great SGs, this era is weak for bigmen and rule changes have made it to where even decent wing players can be better than what they otherwise might have been 20 years ago. What makes Joe Johnson for example, who was a top 5 SG 6-7 years ago, any better than Mitch richmond or latrell Sprewell? Glen Rice? Eddie Jones? Any of those guys would flourish today. Penny and Grant Hill were robbed of their greatness by injuries, but they would be right in the mix of top ten players if they played today. Hell, Grant Hill at 39 was a legit starter 3 years ago, but yet we're supposed to believe that MJ's dominance wouldn't translate to this era? Why? You have known perimeter stoppers like Ron Artest and Shawn Marion calling MJ their toughest cover, and that was WIZARDS MJ they're referring to.

If anything his skillset is tailormade for this era. Out of all the great perimeter players, he's the only one who was literally a great driver/shooter/and post player at his apex. Lebron obviously was a near unparalleled slasher and finisher, he's only recently developed a fair post game and he's a streaky shooter. Kobe was a great shooter and driver, only developed a really great postgame after his physical abilities diminished and wasn't the slasher he was in his youth. Wade was a driver/finisher, has a good postgame and is beyond streaky as a shooter. Jordan was great at all of those attributes as a 29/30 year old.

Athletically he'd be right in the mix of best athletes. No, his athleticism wouldn't stand out today like it did 20 years ago, but he'd still be considered a supreme athlete. Exactly WHAT about Jordan's game wouldn't translate to today? People forget( conveniently) that in 2002, prior to his knees limiting him and eventually cutting his season short, by the midway point of the season he was averaging like 25/6/5 on mid 40's shooting numbers. Thats a 39 year old, 3 years removed from the game with a surgically repaired thumb on his shooting finger and two bad knees, putting up those numbers when the other greats of his era were long gone. He was right jn the mix with all the young pups at a time that was considered a strong defensive era, and you had guys like Tmac, Iverson, Vince, Kobe, Pierce all well-established at that point. But......29 year MJ wouldn't dominate today?!

[rlsmooth775]

I'm not quite sure why this continues to be a bullet point argument to diminish Jordan. MJ excelled in an era that wasn't tailor-made for athletic wing players to flourish, and still dominated. Just as his era was so called 'weak' for great SGs, this era is weak for bigmen and rule changes have made it to where even decent wing players can be better than what they otherwise might have been 20 years ago. What makes Joe Johnson for example, who was a top 5 SG 6-7 years ago, any better than Mitch richmond or latrell Sprewell? Glen Rice? Eddie Jones? Any of those guys would flourish today. Penny and Grant Hill were robbed of their greatness by injuries, but they would be right in the mix of top ten players if they played today. Hell, Grant Hill at 39 was a legit starter 3 years ago, but yet we're supposed to believe that MJ's dominance wouldn't translate to this era? Why? You have known perimeter stoppers like Ron Artest and Shawn Marion calling MJ their toughest cover, and that was WIZARDS MJ they're referring to.

If anything his skillset is tailormade for this era. Out of all the great perimeter players, he's the only one who was literally a great driver/shooter/and post player at his apex. Lebron obviously was a near unparalleled slasher and finisher, he's only recently developed a fair post game and he's a streaky shooter. Kobe was a great shooter and driver, only developed a really great postgame after his physical abilities diminished and wasn't the slasher he was in his youth. Wade was a driver/finisher, has a good postgame and is beyond streaky as a shooter. Jordan was great at all of those attributes as a 29/30 year old.

Athletically he'd be right in the mix of best athletes. No, his athleticism wouldn't stand out today like it did 20 years ago, but he'd still be considered a supreme athlete. Exactly WHAT about Jordan's game wouldn't translate to today? People forget( conveniently) that in 2002, prior to his knees limiting him and eventually cutting his season short, by the midway point of the season he was averaging like 25/6/5 on mid 40's shooting numbers. Thats a 39 year old, 3 years removed from the game with a surgically repaired thumb on his shooting finger and two bad knees, putting up those numbers when the other greats of his era were long gone. He was right jn the mix with all the young pups at a time that was considered a strong defensive era, and you had guys like Tmac, Iverson, Vince, Kobe, Pierce all well-established at that point. But......29 year MJ wouldn't dominate today?!

This thread isn't about comparing eras or what if they played in a certain. The 90s lacked talent in the 2s and 3s

[rlsmooth775]

Who are the superstar 2s now? Wade is oft injured and clearly in decline. Kobe could be done. The 2 spot is pretty weak right now.

duh

[Sarcastic]

Basketball is not a one on one sport. It's a team game. When people say Jordan didn't face elite wing players, it really doesn't matter. He faced elite team and their defenses.

[NBASTATMAN]

Dominant no touching/3 second violation era wings who played in the 90s:

Kobe Bryant (Drafted 1996): 16/4/3 (45% FG) in the 90s
Ray Allen (Drafted 1996): 18/4/4 (44% FG) in the 90s
Allen Iverson (Drafted 1996): 25/4/6 (43% FG) in the 90s
Tracy McGrady (Drafted 1997): 11/6/3 (45% FG) in the 90s

^With the exception of Iverson, who wasn't that great anyway, those guys benefitted GREATLY by playing in a much softer era for perimeter players after being subject to the sort of defense Jordan played under the vast majority of his career.

Now compare their production in the Jordan era to the 2000s era (especially around the middle of the decade).



ONLY CAME AROUND TO SEE WHAT WAS UP AND I SEE YOUR ARE STILL PUTTING KOBESTANS IN THEIR PLACE... :rockon: :applause:

[Dragonyeuw]

This thread isn't about comparing eras or what if they played in a certain. The 90s lacked talent in the 2s and 3s

Ive seen several references in this thread to the lack of 90s perimeter talent vs that of the 2000s. I dont know, sounds like comparing to me :confusedshrug:

[Hey Yo]

Get off my nuts you clown. Just look at Bron's stats in the era of inflated perimeter stats compared to Kobe's. Both guys came out of high school, so you can cry all you want about 'skewed' numbers, but the facts look like this:

Kobe in his third year playing in the 90s: 19.9 PPG (46.5% FG)/5 RPG/4 APG

Lebron in his third year playing in the 00s: 31.4 PPG (48% FG)/7 RPG/7APG

^That was the season that several perimeter guys, including guys who were drafted in the mid 90s, suspiciously had career years where their scoring sky rocketed. Wonder what happened :lol

'04-'05 Scoring Leaders
1) Allen Iverson 30.7
2) Kobe Bryant 27.6
3) LeBron James 27.2
4) Dirk Nowitzki 26.1
5) Amar'e Stoudemire 26

'05-'06 Scoring Leaders
1) Kobe Bryant 35.4
2) Allen Iverson 33
3) LeBron James 31.4
4) Gilbert Arenas 29.5
5) Dwyane Wade 27.2

Must've been something in the drinking water in the Summer of '05 :roll:

Now compare that to 10+ years earlier

'94-'95 Scoring Leaders
1) Shaquille O'Neal 29.3
2) Hakeem Olajuwon 27.8
3) David Robinson 27.6
4) Karl Malone 26.7
5) Jamal Mashburn 24.1

'95-'96 Scoring Leaders
1) Michael Jordan 30.6
2) Hakeem Olajuwon 26.9
3) SHaquille O'Neal 26.6
4) Karl Malone 25.7
5) David Robinson 25

Notice how the smallest player in the top 5 from the 90s not named Jordan was the 6'8 250 lbs Mashburn. Meanwhile the 5'11" 165 lbs Iverson was putting up 33 PPG :lol I shudder to think about the sort of destruction Jordan would've wrecked getting that sort of leg up from the league. Would've been disgusting to witness.

Go to sleep.
Look at the FGA from 2004 and then 2005. Kobe attempted 7 more FGA in 05-06 than 04-05. Iverson's FGA were up. So was James'. Plus Kobe and Iverson played more games in 05-06 than the previous year. That definitely had something to do it

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/sort/avgPoints/year/2005/seasontype/2

04-05 ^

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/sort/avgPoints/year/2006/seasontype/2

05-06 ^

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ was a GUARD, not a wing. And even then OP's statement isn't accurate.

[Real14]

MJ was a GUARD, not a wing. And even then OP's statement isn't accurate.
end thread:applause:

[Calabis]

So can someone please tell me who are these dominant 2's in today's era?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Wing's in MJ's 90's Era:

Magic (Wing / Guard)
Bird
G. Hill (Wing / Guard)
Penny (Wing / Guard)
Nique
Pippen
G. Rice
S. Smith (Wing / Guard)
Mullin
Spreewell (Wing / Guard)
Mashburn

Just to name some ...

[Rocketswin2013]

So can someone please tell me who are these dominant 2's in today's era?Harden and Wade are the only All-NBA level 2's left(Kobe's done IMHO). Now the SF and PF positions are more stacked than ever. The PG position isn't stacked IMO and not really top-heavy. Just a little deeper than the rest.

[jzek]

It was full of dominant bigs though:

Shaq
Hakeem
Robinson
Ewing
Malone
Barkley
etc.

...and Jordan shat on all of them with Longley as his center.

[Sarcastic]

The only thing this era has over the previous era is dominant point guards.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The only thing this era has over the previous era is dominant point guards.
1990s Era PGs

Gary Payton
Isiah Thomas
John Stockton
Kevin Johnson
Tim Hardaway
Penny Hardaway
Mark Price
Jason Kidd
Terry Porter
Terrell Brandon
Joe Dumars
Rod Strickland

:biggums:

[ImKobe]

Pippen, Nique, Mullin, Drexler, Miller, Grant Hill, Glen Rice, Penny Hardaway were pretty decent wing players in the 90s and would all be top players in the league today

90s was dominated by elite big men like Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Zo, Barkley, Mutombo, David Robinson, Malone, Shawn Kemp, Vlade Divac, Chris Webber, Otis Thorpe, Sabonis

featured some great point guards like Kevin Johnson, John Stockton, Tim Hardaway, Gary Payton, Muggsy, Ron Harper(before joining Chicago), Mark Jackson, Mark Price

90s had a lot of stars, people here just weren't around and probably have only seen a few highlight clips of some of these players and have no idea how good they were