LeBron's 2007 ECF "help" versus MJ's first round losses "help"

[Roundball_Rock]

1985

In this series the 38-44 GOAT lost 3-1 to a team led by NBA legends Terry Cummings and Sidney Moncrief. What "help" did MJ get from his teammates, though?

MJ shot 43.6% but posted 29/6/9 while taking nearly half of the Bull's free throws. His "second option" scored 21 points per game on 50% and his "third option" averaged 15 a game.

1986

In 1986 the GOAT played in only 18 regular season games (the Bulls went 9-9) and the Bulls made the playoffs at 30-52. They draw the legendary 86' Celtics and promptly were swept.

MJ averaged 44/6/6 on 32 FGA and 13 FTA per game. His "second option" scored 21 ppg again while Charles Oakley contributed 10/10 on 55% and Dave Corzine 12/9 on 52%.

1987

MJ had his best statistical year (37/5/5) and led the Bulls to 40-42, again drawing the Celtics in the first round. The Celtics swept them again. MJ had 36/7/6 on 41.7% and 28 FGA and 13 FTA. Charles Oakley chipped in 20/15. "His" third scorer averaged 10 on 55%.

Recap

*MJ had a 20+ ppg second option every year.
*MJ had a 20/15 performance from a future all-star in one series.
*His third options did decent on limited shots.

To be fair, his teams were inferior in each case. After all, that is how seeding works: the better teams get the higher seeds so it is important to not go 38-44 or 40-42. Still, is the "help" MJ had any worse than, say:

*Your #2 option being hurt and averaging only 7/3/2.
*Having a #3 option who averaged 13.5/3/1.
*Having a #4 option who averaged 13/9.

Those figures are from when LeBron led the Cavs past the Pistons to reach the NBA Finals at age 22.

Thoughts on why LeBron did more with less help? :bowdown: I raise this because MJ fans have repeatedly insisted that MJ on the 07' Cavs would reach the Finals--even though the real life MJ was struggling to even get out the first round with similar rosters.

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ had comparable help, probably worse in '89, yet dragged the Bulls to ECF. In a better Eastern Conference Gave the eventual champs, the '89 Bad Boy Pistons their only 2x losses of the post season, due to brillaint performances. How does one call themselves a Bulls fan, yet is consistently trying to discredit their franchise's best player. Makes no sense.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ had comparable help in '89, dragged the Bulls to ECF. Gave the eventual champs their only 2x losses of the post season, due to brillaint performances.

He quit in Game 5 with the series tied 2-2...

His roster in 89' was the same core roster that would win three straight titles and then win 55 games without him the year after that. So this core (Pippen, Grant, Cartwright) won 55+ for five consecutive years.

[GeeWiz]

Whats with the constant need to elevate LeBron above Jordan on this forum? I just don't get it.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He quit in Game 5 with the series tied 2-2...
Umm, Collins wanted MJ to be a decoy, and play distrubtor that game. After he scored 46 in game 3, that was the plan. Elevate his under performing teammates confidence.

He ended up scoring 18 points, shot 50% and dished out 9 assists. How is that quitting?

He didn't go full LeBron, in the middle of winnable series, stand on the perimeter and look visibly disinterested causing the Bulls to lose. When they were considered FAVORITES in the series. Like LeBron's Cavs. Which I assume is why you threw the word "quit" out there, in order to relieve LeBron of criticism, and attempt to diminish Jordan.

So let me get this straight. You're a self proclaimed Bulls fan, yet purposely try to throw shade, and diminish not just your franchise's greatest player. But the game's all-time greatest player?

Right.

[Calabis]

So did you watch the series(Bucks), or did you just decide to look at the stats and come up with this theory?

[Kblaze8855]

Umm, Collins wanted MJ to be a decoy, and play distrubtor that game. After he scored 46 in game 3, that was the plan. Elevate his under performing teammates confidence.

You actually remember that game and the requlting backlash? Serious question.

[SamuraiSWISH]

So did you watch the series, or did you just decide to look at the stats and come up with this theory?
He's making the claim that the '94 Bulls, w/ Pippen / Grant / Cartwirght were essentially the same claiber players as they were in 1989.

Oh, and has KBlaze another "Bulls fan" who only knows my posting habits, but not Roundball_Rock's Jordan hating agenda agreeing with him.

Some articles insinuated MJ quit in that game 5. It was an idea tossed around. But it wasn't a for definite mid series QUIT job in winnable series, for multiple games like we saw from LeBron in consecutive season in 2010,a nd 2011.

Lets see, 1989:

Jordan: 35 ppg, 7 rpg, 8 apg on 51%

Grant: 11 ppg, 10 rpg, 2 apg on 52%
Pippen: 13 ppg, 8 rpg, 4 apg on 46%
Cartwight: 12 ppg, 7 rpg, 1 apg on 49%

1994:

Grant: 16 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg on 54%
Pippen: 23 ppg, 8 rpg, 5 apg on 43%
Cartwright: 5 ppg, 5 rpg, 1 apg on 33%

For good measure. Rusty baseball MJ who had to save Chicago's .500 season in 1995. His playoff numbers:

32 ppg, 7 rpg, 5 apg on 48%

Pippen?

18 ppg, 9 rpg, 6 apg on 44%

See? Exactly the same team in '89, as 1994. It's not like that core around Jordan got better, or more experienced. I mean my god, it's such an accomplishment to win 55 games, then get bounced in second round.

MJ comes back in proper shape, set record for most wins in season. 72 games. A 2nd three peat. 2x MVPs.

[Calabis]

You actually remember that game and the requlting backlash? Serious question.

I could be wrong, but I believe that was the game in which Jordan actually was running a lot of the point and it appeared to be the game plan to try to get other players going. I may be wrong, but I remember one of those Piston series where they tried that shit.

[Kblaze8855]

He's making the claim that the '94 Bulls, w/ Pippen / Grant / Cartwirght were essentially the same claiber players as they were in 1989.

Oh, and has KBlaze another "Bulls fan" who only knows my posting habits, but not Roundball_Rock's Jordan hating agenda agreeing with him.

I would literally bet my life and the lives of my loved ones you couldnt find anything in 13 years to suggest I think that....even in jest. Not that I think you base the things you say on reality....its just a pretty startling thing to read.

[Calabis]

He's making the claim that the '94 Bulls, w/ Pippen / Grant / Cartwirght were essentially the same claiber players as they were in 1989.

Oh, and has KBlaze another "Bulls fan" who only knows my posting habits, but not Roundball_Rock's Jordan hating agenda agreeing with him.

Some articles insinuated MJ quit in that game 5. It was an idea tossed around. But it wasn't a for definite mid series QUIT job in winnable series, for multiple games like we saw from LeBron in consecutive season in 2010,a nd 2011.

Lets see, 1989:

Jordan: 35 ppg, 7 rpg, 8 apg on 51%

Grant: 11 ppg, 10 rpg, 2 apg on 52%
Pippen: 13 ppg, 8 rpg, 4 apg on 46%
Cartwight: 12 ppg, 7 rpg, 1 apg on 49%

1994:

Grant: 16 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg on 54%
Pippen: 23 ppg, 8 rpg, 5 apg on 43%
Cartwright: 5 ppg, 5 rpg, 1 apg on 33%

For good measure. Rusty baseball MJ who had to save Chicago's .500 season in 1995. His playoff numbers:

32 ppg, 7 rpg, 5 apg on 48%

Pippen?

18 ppg, 9 rpg, 6 apg on 44%

See? Exactly the same team in '89, as 1994. It's not like that core around Jordan got better, or more experienced. I mean my god, it's such an accomplishment to win 55 games, then get bounced in second round.

MJ comes back in proper shape, set record for most wins in season. 72 games. A 2nd three peat. 2x MVPs.

Well I asked him about the Bucks series...I like how he just posts the third option at 15 ppg. But then doesn't look at the stats in context. He fails to mention Pressey and Pierce on the Bucks team(Ask a real Bucks fan about those teams). The series is hazy at this time, but I remember Pressey having a couple of huge games for the Bucks. I'll have to check when I get home on computer.

[Ne 1]

LeBron faced far inferior competition and let's not forget the Cavs were an elite defensive and rebounding team, a good recipe for successes in the 00s Eastern Conference as we seen Iverson, Kidd and Dwight make it to the Finals with a cast that didn't look that great on paper either.
Recap of the ECF:
Game 3: James carried the load with 32/9/9, but a big key was also Cleveland's defense holding Detroit to 82 points, funny how people often ignore that and act like basketball is just one side of the basketball, defense is half of the game after all. So with Cleveland's defense doing such a great job, LeBron didn't need that much offensive support, having 3 teammates in double figures(Z- 16, Pavlovic- 13, Gooden- 12) was more than enough.

Game 4: LeBron had 25/7/11, but again, Cleveland held Detroit to just 87 points and Daniel Gibson scored 21 points on great efficiency(4/7 from the field, 12/12 from the line) and Gooden also had 19/8.

Game 5: This is about as close as a player can come to winning a game by himself, we all know about Lebron's 48/9/7 game.

Game 6: Lebron had 20/14/8, though his efficiency was poor (3/11 FG, 14/19 FT), but again Cleveland's defense shut down Detroit. The Pistons scored just 82 points and Daniel Gibson led all scorers with 31 points on amazing efficiency (7/9 FG, 5/5 3P, 12/15 FT).

[nathanjizzle]

whats the point of this thread, to say that lebron is better than mj?

dont make me laugh.:lol

[sdot_thadon]

[QUOTE=Sam Smith]The power struggle between Jordan and Collins was never more evident than in the 1990 playoffs against Detroit. In the fifth game of the conference finals, Jordan attempted just 8 shots; the Bulls lost, and were eliminated at home in the next game. Questions flew at Jordan and Collins after the game, only to be met by the standard response about double-teaming tactics. But Collins and Jordan knew otherwise. The coach had told Jordan he was shooting too much; he had taken 31 percent of the team

[Solefade]

whats the point of this thread, to say that lebron is better than mj?

dont make me laugh.:lol


it's not to say LBJ is better than MJ retard, but people criticize lebron all the time for the same things that MJ did but got a pass for

OP is stating facts in detail

[blood yes]

LeBron faced far inferior competition and let's not forget the Cavs were an elite defensive and rebounding team, a good recipe for successes in the 00s Eastern Conference as we seen Iverson, Kidd and Dwight make it to the Finals with a cast that didn't look that great on paper either.
Recap of the ECF:
Game 3: James carried the load with 32/9/9, but a big key was also Cleveland's defense holding Detroit to 82 points, funny how people often ignore that and act like basketball is just one side of the basketball, defense is half of the game after all. So with Cleveland's defense doing such a great job, LeBron didn't need that much offensive support, having 3 teammates in double figures(Z- 16, Pavlovic- 13, Gooden- 12) was more than enough.

Game 4: LeBron had 25/7/11, but again, Cleveland held Detroit to just 87 points and Daniel Gibson scored 21 points on great efficiency(4/7 from the field, 12/12 from the line) and Gooden also had 19/8.

Game 5: This is about as close as a player can come to winning a game by himself, we all know about Lebron's 48/9/7 game.

Game 6: Lebron had 20/14/8, though his efficiency was poor (3/11 FG, 14/19 FT), but again Cleveland's defense shut down Detroit. The Pistons scored just 82 points and Daniel Gibson led all scorers with 31 points on amazing efficiency (7/9 FG, 5/5 3P, 12/15 FT).

The fact that Daniel Gibson was the 2nd option on that team shows you how great LeBron was in 2007.

As an unbiased NBA ball fan, I can say that the 2007 game 5 ECF was one of the greatest games ive EVER seen, and this includes jordan/kobe/malone/shaq.

Ive never seen someone as young as BRon absolutely tear apart the Pistons dynasty in half, he pretty much took down a dynasty by himself.

In fact, id argue that 2007 Bron>Today's Bron, mainly because 2007 Bron was INCREDIBLY CLUTCH and could blow by anybody. Today, LeBron cant even blow by Boris Diaw

[juju151111]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]1985

In this series the 38-44 GOAT lost 3-1 to a team led by NBA legends Terry Cummings and Sidney Moncrief. What "help" did MJ get from his teammates, though?

MJ shot 43.6% but posted 29/6/9 while taking nearly half of the Bull's free throws. His "second option" scored 21 points per game on 50% and his "third option" averaged 15 a game.

1986

In 1986 the GOAT played in only 18 regular season games (the Bulls went 9-9) and the Bulls made the playoffs at 30-52. They draw the legendary 86' Celtics and promptly were swept.

MJ averaged 44/6/6 on 32 FGA and 13 FTA per game. His "second option" scored 21 ppg again while Charles Oakley contributed 10/10 on 55% and Dave Corzine 12/9 on 52%.

1987

MJ had his best statistical year (37/5/5) and led the Bulls to 40-42, again drawing the Celtics in the first round. The Celtics swept them again. MJ had 36/7/6 on 41.7% and 28 FGA and 13 FTA. Charles Oakley chipped in 20/15. "His" third scorer averaged 10 on 55%.

Recap

*MJ had a 20+ ppg second option every year.
*MJ had a 20/15 performance from a future all-star in one series.
*His third options did decent on limited shots.

To be fair, his teams were inferior in each case. After all, that is how seeding works: the better teams get the higher seeds so it is important to not go 38-44 or 40-42. Still, is the "help" MJ had any worse than, say:

*Your #2 option being hurt and averaging only 7/3/2.
*Having a #3 option who averaged 13.5/3/1.
*Having a #4 option who averaged 13/9.

Those figures are from when LeBron led the Cavs past the Pistons to reach the NBA Finals at age 22.

Thoughts on why LeBron did more with less help? :bowdown: I raise this because MJ fans have repeatedly insisted that MJ on the 07' Cavs would reach the Finals--even though the real life MJ was struggling to even get out the first round with similar rosters.[/QUOTEhttp://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXboxscoresXX199006030DET.html Go sit Ur dumbaas down

[Roundball_Rock]

This is how it supposedly went....

And he was promptly fired--despite leading his team to a higher round each year of his tenure...

This thread exists because MJ fans repeatedly claim--as a matter of fact--that MJ would be in the Finals with the 07' Cavs when the MJ of reality, not mythology, was nowhere near the Finals with such teams. As Collins knew, as did his assistant Jackson and MJ's teammates, a big problem was MJ hogged the ball. LeBron has always understood basketball is a team game. It is no coincidence MJ started winning as soon as the Triangle was implemented and Pippen became the primary ballhandler. It is funny, Wilt had to learn this lesson but people act as if MJ did not.

[juju151111]

And he was promptly fired--despite leading his team to a higher round each year of his tenure...

This thread exists because MJ fans repeatedly claim--as a matter of fact--that MJ would be in the Finals with the 07' Cavs when the MJ of reality, not mythology, was nowhere near the Finals with such teams. As Collins knew, as did his assistant Jackson and MJ's teammates, a big problem was MJ hogged the ball. LeBron has always understood basketball is a team game. It is no coincidence MJ started winning as soon as the Triangle was implemented and Pippen became the primary ballhandler. It is funny, Wilt had to learn this lesson but people act as if MJ did not.
Scrub east

[juju151111]

And he was promptly fired--despite leading his team to a higher round each year of his tenure...

This thread exists because MJ fans repeatedly claim--as a matter of fact--that MJ would be in the Finals with the 07' Cavs when the MJ of reality, not mythology, was nowhere near the Finals with such teams. As Collins knew, as did his assistant Jackson and MJ's teammates, a big problem was MJ hogged the ball. LeBron has always understood basketball is a team game. It is no coincidence MJ started winning as soon as the Triangle was implemented and Pippen became the primary ballhandler. It is funny, Wilt had to learn this lesson but people act as if MJ did not.
http://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXboxscoresXX199006030DET.html

[DatAsh]

And he was promptly fired--despite leading his team to a higher round each year of his tenure...

This thread exists because MJ fans repeatedly claim--as a matter of fact--that MJ would be in the Finals with the 07' Cavs when the MJ of reality, not mythology, was nowhere near the Finals with such teams. As Collins knew, as did his assistant Jackson and MJ's teammates, a big problem was MJ hogged the ball. LeBron has always understood basketball is a team game. It is no coincidence MJ started winning as soon as the Triangle was implemented and Pippen became the primary ballhandler. It is funny, Wilt had to learn this lesson but people act as if MJ did not.

The 07 Cavs have no chance of making the finals in the late 80s/early 90s. Different competition makes this thread somewhat irrelevant.

[Dresta]

Conclusion: you need teammates to hit shots to win an NBA championsip - wow, that's a big ****ing surprise :rolleyes:

[Roundball_Rock]

The 07 Cavs have no chance of making the finals in the late 80s/early 90s. Different competition makes this thread somewhat irrelevant.

Of course they don't in the 80's. You can't compare a 30 team league to a 22 team league. If the 2007 Cavs were transported to 1985 you would have to improve their roster...What is being compared is teams relative to the league at the time.

It is interesting that MJ fans equate losing in the first round with losing in the Finals. This is like comparing a racer who finishes 2nd with one who finishes 22nd. LeBron dragged his team much further.

It is amusing and convenient how the 80's and 90's are presented as the apex of basketball competition. The 80's had several .500 teams in the conference finals. The 90's had only one great team. The 2014 playoffs, at least in the West, exhibited great parity.

It is interesting, on the one hand the competition is weak today and on the other the Heat are ultra-stacked yet the Heat are not romping through the playoffs every year like the Bulls routinely did or other teams in the 80's did. Which is it? Either the competition is underrated today or the Heat's strength is overrated.

Ultimately, the reason questions are being raised vis-a-vis MJ is the absurd mythology around him. According to that narrative it was basically all MJ--his teammates and Phil Jackson had nothing to do it (the best example of this is MJ fans acting as if Rodman had no role in the Bulls going for losing in the ECSF to champions--even though anyone watching at the time knows why the Bulls rolled the dice on the then-very risky Rodman, who was worth only a backup center in a trade due to the high risk level). You have one guy comparing the 10' Cavs to the 91' Bulls in just the previous post.


Iverson, Kidd and Dwight make it to the Finals with a cast that didn't look that great on paper either.

True--but other than Iverson, those other teams had second and third options as scorers who were better than what the Cavs had on tap (i.e. Lewis, Turk, Nelson in Orlando). It probably is no coincidence then that of that group that Iverson's team was the one hit wonder.

[Droid101]

LeBron faced far inferior competition and let's not forget the Cavs were an elite defensive and rebounding team, a good recipe for successes in the 00s Eastern Conference as we seen Iverson, Kidd and Dwight make it to the Finals with a cast that didn't look that great on paper either.
Recap of the ECF:
Game 3: James carried the load with 32/9/9, but a big key was also Cleveland's defense holding Detroit to 82 points, funny how people often ignore that and act like basketball is just one side of the basketball, defense is half of the game after all. So with Cleveland's defense doing such a great job, LeBron didn't need that much offensive support, having 3 teammates in double figures(Z- 16, Pavlovic- 13, Gooden- 12) was more than enough.

Game 4: LeBron had 25/7/11, but again, Cleveland held Detroit to just 87 points and Daniel Gibson scored 21 points on great efficiency(4/7 from the field, 12/12 from the line) and Gooden also had 19/8.

Game 5: This is about as close as a player can come to winning a game by himself, we all know about Lebron's 48/9/7 game.

Game 6: Lebron had 20/14/8, though his efficiency was poor (3/11 FG, 14/19 FT), but again Cleveland's defense shut down Detroit. The Pistons scored just 82 points and Daniel Gibson led all scorers with 31 points on amazing efficiency (7/9 FG, 5/5 3P, 12/15 FT).
OP on suicide watch.

[Young X]

If you think MJ couldn't have gotten that team to the finals, what team would they have lost too then?

[Calabis]

And he was promptly fired--despite leading his team to a higher round each year of his tenure...

This thread exists because MJ fans repeatedly claim--as a matter of fact--that MJ would be in the Finals with the 07' Cavs when the MJ of reality, not mythology, was nowhere near the Finals with such teams. As Collins knew, as did his assistant Jackson and MJ's teammates, a big problem was MJ hogged the ball. LeBron has always understood basketball is a team game. It is no coincidence MJ started winning as soon as the Triangle was implemented and Pippen became the primary ballhandler. It is funny, Wilt had to learn this lesson but people act as if MJ did not.

So you are going to compare arguably the best team in NBA History Celtics and the 80's era Bucks to the shit Lebron played in 2007 :facepalm . Then you post this shit help numbers and downplay Lebron's help

Lebron against the Nets 24/7/8 on 42%, yet he still won the series :oldlol:

Jordan(rookie) 29/8/5 on 47% and lost the series to the Bucks

So you stat shit is illogical....look who the hell they played against, then look what the oppostion did to the Bulls

The Celtics you like to mention had their entire starting five avg more than 15 ppg, on high percentages, yet Jordan choked because he avg 35/7/6, during the series, while Oakley avg 20 ppg on 38% shooting from the post:rolleyes:

Lol so Jordan getting to the ECF against the Pistons, was a result of the 13/7/3 Pippen was dropping(3 ast by the primary ballhandler)....damn this place is amazing

[Roundball_Rock]

So you are going to compare arguably the best team in NBA History Celtics and the 80's era Bucks to the shit Lebron played in 2007

This was acknowledged in the OP: he should not have been expected to beat those teams because his teams were losing teams. Where he is faulted is for not leading those teams to better records (outside of 1986) and thereby avoiding facing the #1 or #2 seed (like LeBron routinely does). Other top 10 all-time greats joined lousy teams and turned them around quickly. All of them were in at least the conference finals within 2-3 years--some of them got there or beyond as rookies. The only exceptions are the high school players, Kobe and LeBron.

The real question is why MJ was the #8 seed in the first place--LeBron was the #2 seed in 2007 and basically is #1 or #2 every year.


yet Jordan choked because he avg 35/7/6, during the series

Where was he accused of choking? I see no difference between MJ losing with great individual stats and Wilt. Yet one gets a pass while the other is crucified--and Wilt was not routinely losing in the first round as a low seed...


If you think MJ couldn't have gotten that team to the finals, what team would they have lost too then?

Detroit.

:lol Pippen was not the primary ballhandler in 89' and Jackson was an assistant at the time. That was the year MJ had his career high in assists and was utilized in a Magic-type role--Magic with more scoring.

[LeBird]

This is how it supposedly went....

#teamplayer

:lol

[juju151111]

This was acknowledged in the OP: he should not have been expected to beat those teams because his teams were losing teams. Where he is faulted is for not leading those teams to better records (outside of 1986) and thereby avoiding facing the #1 or #2 seed (like LeBron routinely does). Other top 10 all-time greats joined lousy teams and turned them around quickly. All of them were in at least the conference finals within 2-3 years--some of them got there or beyond as rookies. The only exceptions are the high school players, Kobe and LeBron.

The real question is why MJ was the #8 seed in the first place--LeBron was the #2 seed in 2007 and basically is #1 or #2 every year.



Where was he accused of choking? I see no difference between MJ losing with great individual stats and Wilt. Yet one gets a pass while the other is crucified--and Wilt was not routinely losing in the first round as a low seed...



Detroit.

:lol Pippen was not the primary ballhandler in 89' and Jackson was an assistant at the time. That was the year MJ had his career high in assists and was utilized in a Magic-type role--Magic with more scoring.
All Mj had to do to beat Detroit is have one great game. LJ was only decent the rest of those games. Mj won without HCA in 89. The Detroit LeBron faced was going downhill and old.

[Paul George 24]

This was acknowledged in the OP: he should not have been expected to beat those teams because his teams were losing teams. Where he is faulted is for not leading those teams to better records (outside of 1986) and thereby avoiding facing the #1 or #2 seed (like LeBron routinely does). Other top 10 all-time greats joined lousy teams and turned them around quickly. All of them were in at least the conference finals within 2-3 years--some of them got there or beyond as rookies. The only exceptions are the high school players, Kobe and LeBron.

The real question is why MJ was the #8 seed in the first place--LeBron was the #2 seed in 2007 and basically is #1 or #2 every year.



Where was he accused of choking? I see no difference between MJ losing with great individual stats and Wilt. Yet one gets a pass while the other is crucified--and Wilt was not routinely losing in the first round as a low seed...



Detroit.

:lol Pippen was not the primary ballhandler in 89' and Jackson was an assistant at the time. That was the year MJ had his career high in assists and was utilized in a Magic-type role--Magic with more scoring.

weak east :D

[Roundball_Rock]

The Detroit LeBron faced was going downhill and old.

They had the second best record in the league--behind only the KG/Pierce/Allen Celtics--the following year! :biggums:

[LeBird]

Roundball_Rock with dem facts.

[Calabis]

This was acknowledged in the OP: he should not have been expected to beat those teams because his teams were losing teams. Where he is faulted is for not leading those teams to better records (outside of 1986) and thereby avoiding facing the #1 or #2 seed (like LeBron routinely does). Other top 10 all-time greats joined lousy teams and turned them around quickly. All of them were in at least the conference finals within 2-3 years--some of them got there or beyond as rookies. The only exceptions are the high school players, Kobe and LeBron.

The real question is why MJ was the #8 seed in the first place--LeBron was the #2 seed in 2007 and basically is #1 or #2 every year.



Where was he accused of choking? I see no difference between MJ losing with great individual stats and Wilt. Yet one gets a pass while the other is crucified--and Wilt was not routinely losing in the first round as a low seed...



Detroit.

Can you please show me the East Lebron came into, compared to what Jordan came into.

In 87, Jordan had three 50 win teams in his division alone....in the other Division was Bird and his 60 win Celtics

[juju151111]

They had the second best record in the league--behind only the KG/Pierce/Allen Celtics--the following year! :biggums:
It doesn't matter about record. They peaked way before that. The spurs had similar records since 08 but only made the finals these past two years. Having the best record doesn't mean shit. They couldn't even beat a Cavs team where their best player only had one great game. He was subpar in the rest of the games.While Mj was playing the 86 Celtic s no comparison. And having bum ads Pippen n crew do this in Gm 7 http://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXboxscoresXX199006030DET.html

[Marlo_Stanfield]

it's not to say LBJ is better than MJ retard, but people criticize lebron all the time for the same things that MJ did but got a pass for

OP is stating facts in detail
This.
OP is a stright up genius and delivers strong ETHERS in nearly every single post.
OP= MJ fans worst nightmare:banana: :banana:

[LeBird]

It doesn't matter about record. They peaked way before that. The spurs had similar records since 08 but only made the finals these past two years. Having the best record doesn't mean shit. They couldn't even beat a Cavs team where their best player only had one great game. He was subpar in the rest of the games.While Mj was playing the 86 Celtic s no comparison. And having bum ads Pippen n crew do this in Gm 7 http://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXboxscoresXX199006030DET.html

Ladies and gentlemen, being #1 doesn't mean shit anymore.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/194/104/never-go-full-retard-tee_design.png

[Solefade]

All Mj had to do to beat Detroit is have one great game. LJ was only decent the rest of those games. Mj won without HCA in 89. The Detroit LeBron faced was going downhill and old.


people really downplaying that 2007 game 5 ECF performance? :facepalm


it's not that bad to give credit where credit is due even if you don't like the guy :rolleyes:

[Roundball_Rock]

Can you please show me the East Lebron came into, compared to what Jordan came into.

In 87, Jordan had three 50 win teams in his division alone....in the other Division was Bird and his 60 win Celtics

22 team leagues cannot be compared to 30 team leagues. The East was indeed historically bad early in the 2000's. However, the East won the title in 2004, 2006, 2008. The Pistons, Heat, Celtics, Magic, Cavs emerged as contenders in the latter half of the 2000's.

How about the conferences Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Shaq, Bird came in? It did not take any of them 4 years to get out the first round and 7 years to reach the Finals.

In 2008 the best two teams were in the East--the Celtics and the Pistons (who lost to the Cavs the previous year). That was the year where the West had great parity and the difference between the best Western record and the sixth best record was only 3 games. The Pistons gave the Celtics a tougher challenge than the Lakers did.

Also, regarding 2008, LeBron led a 45 win team (they were 0-7 without him that year) to 7 games against an all-time great 66 win team with KG/Pierce/Allen.

[juju151111]

people really downplaying that 2007 game 5 ECF performance? :facepalm


it's not that bad to give credit where credit is due even if you don't like the guy :rolleyes:
I said it was great game. How am I downplaying it?:facepalm

[TheMarkMadsen]

Lebron averaged 25/8/8 on 41.6% FG, 52% TS..

If you don't think MJ could put up this numbers in a weak ass eastern conference then I don't know what to say

[juju151111]

Ladies and gentlemen, being #1 doesn't mean shit anymore.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/194/104/never-go-full-retard-tee_design.png
It just means you had a great regular season. Being #1 doesn't guarantee you shit.

[juju151111]

Lebron averaged 25/8/8 on 41.6% FG, 52% TS..

If you don't think MJ could put up this numbers in a weak ass eastern conference then I don't know what to say
Exactly, this ***** played the Nets and the freaking Wizards.

[Roundball_Rock]

Lebron averaged 25/8/8 on 41.6% FG, 52% TS..

If you don't think MJ could put up this numbers in a weak ass eastern conference then I don't know what to say

I don't think MJ could put up those numbers; he would put up better numbers--just like Wilt would. The problem with pre-1967 Wilt and early MJ is they were great individual players but not as great team players. Players like Magic, Bird, LeBron were good in both regards out the gate.

I think MJ was a better individual player than LeBron. The argument LeBron could have over him, though--if he keeps winning rings and MVP's--is that LeBron works better in a team context. This, in essence, was the argument people made for Magic over MJ in the late 80's. At that point people acknowledged MJ was the better individual player but Magic was more conducive for winning.

Individual stats and team success are too different things. This argument is frequently made by MJ fans vis-a-vis Wilt--if one looks solely and individual stats and skills then Wilt is the clear GOAT, no? Wilt could lead the league in scoring, FG %, rebounding, blocks, assists, being the dominant defender depending on what you needed him to do that year. Yet MJ fans dismiss Wilt because his individual brilliance, both in terms of skills and stats, did not fully translate into the win column.

[LeBird]

It just means you had a great regular season. Being #1 doesn't guarantee you shit.

You could have 5 HOFers and it doesn't guarantee you anything. What it does illustrate is that said team was the best team in the league in the regular season. Those teams tend to be pretty damn good.

[juju151111]

I don't think MJ could put up those numbers; he would put up better numbers--just like Wilt would. The problem with pre-1967 Wilt and early MJ is they were great individual players but not as great team players. Players like Magic, Bird, LeBron were good in both regards out the gate.

I think MJ was a better individual player than LeBron. The argument LeBron could have over him, though--if he keeps winning rings and MVP's--is that LeBron works better in a team context. This, in essence, was the argument people made for Magic over MJ in the late 80's. At that point people acknowledged MJ was the better individual player but Magic was more conducive for winning.

Individual stats and team success are too different things. This argument is frequently made by MJ fans vis-a-vis Wilt--if one looks solely and individual stats and skills then Wilt is the clear GOAT, no? Wilt could lead the league in scoring, FG %, rebounding, blocks, assists, being the dominant defender depending on what you needed him to do that year. Yet MJ fans dismiss Wilt because his individual brilliance, both in terms of skills and stats, did not fully translate into the win column.
Complete and other BS. MJ leads the Cavs to the finals in 07 and doesn't play like a freaking scrubkins like LeBron did in 07 nba finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

You could have 5 HOFers and it doesn't guarantee you anything. What it does illustrate is that said team was the best team in the league in the regular season. Those teams tend to be pretty damn good.

Juju is acting as if they collapsed in the playoffs. They reached the ECF for the sixth consecutive year and lost only to the one team with a better regular season record than them--and they gave Boston more competition than the Lakers did from the West.

MJ fans and others attack LeBron for reaching the Finals and losing yet MJ gets a pass for losing in the first round with low seeds multiple times? :confusedshrug: Even if we accept that MJ could not lift a lousy team why then criticize LeBron for doing so?


MJ leads the Cavs to the finals in 07 and doesn't play like a freaking scrubkins like LeBron did in 07 nba finals.

Perhaps--but that is a hypothetical. What we do know is when MJ in reality had such teams he did not get to the Finals--and multiple times was losing in the first round.

It is a shame MJ retired after the 98' season--because he did not want to be part of a rebuilding process. What would the Bulls have done in 99' with MJ and Kukoc? Remember, MJ was the reigning MVP and even at age 38 was a 25 ppg scorer prior to his injury so he was not exactly washed up in 1998 and 1998, although clearly he was past his prime.

[juju151111]

Juju is acting as if they collapsed in the playoffs. They reached the ECF for the sixth consecutive year and lost only to the one team with a better regular season record than them--and they gave Boston more competition than the Lakers did from the West.

MJ fans and others attack LeBron for reaching the Finals and losing yet MJ gets a pass for losing in the first round with low seeds multiple times? :confusedshrug: Even if we accept that MJ could not lift a lousy team why then criticize LeBron for doing so?
Wtf are you even talking about? Mj played the Boston Celtics. One of the deepest teams ever put together in history. LeBron played in the scrub east conference.

[TheMan]

Whats with the constant need to elevate LeBron above Jordan on this forum? I just don't get it.
Because MJ lives rent free in Roundball Rock's head. He's also madly in love with LeBron. OP makes more MJ threads than even the worst MJ stan here.

He's so boring:sleeping

[TheMan]

Wtf are you even talking about? Mj played the Boston Celtics. One of the deepest teams ever put together in history. LeBron played in the scrub east conference.
Don't bother with that moron, he's too thick to take into context that young MJ was going up against the Bird Celtics and Bad Boys Pistons, two legendary teams.

LeBron faced garbage in the East (come on, a past their peak Pistons was their toughest challenge) and then when they finally faced a legit team, they got handled 4-0.

Ask the OP if he thinks those 07 Cavs could beat either the 86-87 Celtics or the 88-90 Pistons:rolleyes:

[livinglegend]

Roundball is the GOAT poster :applause: :applause:
He knows how to debate: using facts!

[97 bulls]

I really dont see what the point is. The Bulls of the 80s lost to some alltime great teams. And truth is, the early 80s Jordan wasn't the best version of him. He had to learn had to trust his teammates just like Chamberlain.

James in 07 wasn't the same player he is now. And to be honest, his Cabs team did far worse against what most would consider to be a lesser team in the Spurs when compared to the Pistons and Celtics.

[ProfessorMurder]

it's not to say LBJ is better than MJ retard, but people criticize lebron all the time for the same things that MJ did but got a pass for

OP is stating facts in detail

How many Chosen 1 tattoos did Jordan have?

[bukowski81]

1985

In this series the 38-44 GOAT lost 3-1 to a team led by NBA legends Terry Cummings and Sidney Moncrief. What "help" did MJ get from his teammates, though?

MJ shot 43.6% but posted 29/6/9 while taking nearly half of the Bull's free throws. His "second option" scored 21 points per game on 50% and his "third option" averaged 15 a game.

1986

In 1986 the GOAT played in only 18 regular season games (the Bulls went 9-9) and the Bulls made the playoffs at 30-52. They draw the legendary 86' Celtics and promptly were swept.

MJ averaged 44/6/6 on 32 FGA and 13 FTA per game. His "second option" scored 21 ppg again while Charles Oakley contributed 10/10 on 55% and Dave Corzine 12/9 on 52%.

1987

MJ had his best statistical year (37/5/5) and led the Bulls to 40-42, again drawing the Celtics in the first round. The Celtics swept them again. MJ had 36/7/6 on 41.7% and 28 FGA and 13 FTA. Charles Oakley chipped in 20/15. "His" third scorer averaged 10 on 55%.

Recap

*MJ had a 20+ ppg second option every year.
*MJ had a 20/15 performance from a future all-star in one series.
*His third options did decent on limited shots.

To be fair, his teams were inferior in each case. After all, that is how seeding works: the better teams get the higher seeds so it is important to not go 38-44 or 40-42. Still, is the "help" MJ had any worse than, say:

*Your #2 option being hurt and averaging only 7/3/2.
*Having a #3 option who averaged 13.5/3/1.
*Having a #4 option who averaged 13/9.

Those figures are from when LeBron led the Cavs past the Pistons to reach the NBA Finals at age 22.

Thoughts on why LeBron did more with less help? :bowdown: I raise this because MJ fans have repeatedly insisted that MJ on the 07' Cavs would reach the Finals--even though the real life MJ was struggling to even get out the first round with similar rosters.

Because Jordan faced the Celtics. When Lebron reached the finals and played a very good opponent, he got easily swept.

[Solefade]

How many Chosen 1 tattoos did Jordan have?


are you saying he's hated that much because of a tattoo? and are you using arrogance as an underlining thing to hate lebron for as if MJ wasn't cocky AF?



would make more sense to say lebron's just really good and better than my favorite player that's not named michael jordan

[JUDGE WITNESS]

u know its a tough era when u make playoffs with 30 wins

[sekachu]

1985

In this series the 38-44 GOAT lost 3-1 to a team led by NBA legends Terry Cummings and Sidney Moncrief. What "help" did MJ get from his teammates, though?

MJ shot 43.6% but posted 29/6/9 while taking nearly half of the Bull's free throws. His "second option" scored 21 points per game on 50% and his "third option" averaged 15 a game.

1986

In 1986 the GOAT played in only 18 regular season games (the Bulls went 9-9) and the Bulls made the playoffs at 30-52. They draw the legendary 86' Celtics and promptly were swept.

MJ averaged 44/6/6 on 32 FGA and 13 FTA per game. His "second option" scored 21 ppg again while Charles Oakley contributed 10/10 on 55% and Dave Corzine 12/9 on 52%.

1987

MJ had his best statistical year (37/5/5) and led the Bulls to 40-42, again drawing the Celtics in the first round. The Celtics swept them again. MJ had 36/7/6 on 41.7% and 28 FGA and 13 FTA. Charles Oakley chipped in 20/15. "His" third scorer averaged 10 on 55%.

Recap

*MJ had a 20+ ppg second option every year.
*MJ had a 20/15 performance from a future all-star in one series.
*His third options did decent on limited shots.

To be fair, his teams were inferior in each case. After all, that is how seeding works: the better teams get the higher seeds so it is important to not go 38-44 or 40-42. Still, is the "help" MJ had any worse than, say:

*Your #2 option being hurt and averaging only 7/3/2.
*Having a #3 option who averaged 13.5/3/1.
*Having a #4 option who averaged 13/9.

Those figures are from when LeBron led the Cavs past the Pistons to reach the NBA Finals at age 22.

Thoughts on why LeBron did more with less help? :bowdown: I raise this because MJ fans have repeatedly insisted that MJ on the 07' Cavs would reach the Finals--even though the real life MJ was struggling to even get out the first round with similar rosters.


lol, if you really want to compare the first 4th season between MJ and lebron. let take a look of the competition. From 85-88 east top 5 teams >>>>2004-07 east top 5 teams. 07 detroit was obviously descending, still a good team though and still a great accomplishment for lebron outplayed them but the competition is much signification difference.

[BoutPractice]

Jordan had very tough competition indeed, but let's not underestimate LeBron's either. It's easy to laugh and talk about "the East" but it's not what the conference actually looked like.

In LeBron's early years, the East was dominated by an all-time great team in the Pistons (1 title, 2 Finals against HOF laden rosters, and 6 straight Conference Finals appearances), and the Wade/Shaq Heat who won the title in 06 (even though the series was contested).

After that, it was dominated by the Big 3 Celtics, another all-time great team, who would have probably threepeated were it not for injuries.

LeBron reached the Finals in the one year window between the Pistons and the Celtics era (Pistons were still a very good team, but on the decline), while Orlando's 09 run benefitted from an injury to Boston's leading player.

But other than 09 (and the Magic weren't that bad, besides they were a horrible matchup for the Cavs), the LeBron led Cavaliers only lost against amazing teams: "Bad Boys 2" Pistons, Big 3 Spurs, and Big 3 Celtics.

In addition to being top heavy, the East also featured teams like the 61 win Indiana Pacers of 2004, with Jermaine O'Neal and Ron Artest, the Nets with the Big 4 of Jason Kidd, Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson and Nenad Krstic, the Wizards led by the dynamic trio of Gilbert Arenas, Larry Hughes, and Antawn Jamison, the tough Bulls with Luol Deng, Ben Gordon and Kirk Hinrich, and the Hawks with Iso Joe, Josh Smith and Al Horford.

Some of these names sound ridiculous now but they didn't back then. Those weren't bums.

[Magic 32]

My biggest problem with Lebron's 2007 run is the same problem I have with his 2012 run.

The 2007 Pistons were not the 2004-2005 Pistons.

The 2012 Celtics were not the 2008-2009 Celtics.

These were teams that were ready to roll over.


LeBron reached the Finals in the one year window between the Pistons and the Celtics era (Pistons were still a very good team, but on the decline)

[Mr Feeny]

My biggest problem with Lebron's 2007 run is the same problem I have with his 2012 run.

The 2007 Pistons were not the 2004-2005 Pistons.

The 2012 Celtics were not the 2008-2009 Celtics.

These were teams that were ready to roll over.

Hmmm he was guarded by the same man who held Kobe to 38% fg:cheers:

Hmmm those celtics were better than the Perkin-less 2010 Celtics:cheers:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

u know its a tough era when u make playoffs with 30 wins
dat...dat...dat GOAT era tho:cry: :cry:
MJ played in the GOAT era:cry: :cry:

[TheMan]

u know its a tough era when u make playoffs with 30 wins
This moron :oldlol:
The EC in the mid 80s was a top heavy conference, some really good teams on top (Moncrief Bucks, Malone 76ers, Bird Celtics, Nique Hawks) and a bunch of bad teams.

Today's EC just sucks, period. Dysfunctional Indiana was RS top dog? ROFL.

80s EC >>>>>>>>>>> 10s EC

Everyone that isn't mentally challenged knows this.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

This moron :oldlol:
The EC in the mid 80s was a top heavy conference, some really good teams on top (Moncrief Bucks, Malone 76ers, Bird Celtics, Nique Hawks) and a bunch of bad teams.

Today's EC just sucks, period. Dysfunctional Indiana was RS top dog? ROFL.

80s EC >>>>>>>>>>> 10s EC

Everyone that isn't mentally challenged knows this.
mad:coleman:

[TheMan]

mad:coleman:
Just educating the uneducated :pimp:

[LeBird]

u know its a tough era when u make playoffs with 30 wins

:facepalm

[BoutPractice]

To be honest, I've always thought that LeBron's early basketball career, taking context into account (age, stats, impact) compares very well to Jordan's.

To start with, LeBron was obviously more precocious than Jordan, entering the league right out of high school and leading his own franchise from day 1 when Jordan was just one of the guys at UNC, then averaging 27, 7, and 7 in the NBA with Jordan still in college. At age 22 Jordan had been swept out of the first round two consecutive times while LeBron was leading his team to the Finals. At age 25 Jordan had 1 MVP, LeBron 2... Jordan had led his team to 1 50 win seasons, LeBron to 2 60+ win seasons (including a 66 win season).

Where Jordan really separates himself is when he reaches his peak. Jordan's best is better than LeBron's best. It's better than anyone else's, and it will likely remain that way for a long time. At the same time, Jordan's lows are higher than LeBron's.

[Real14]

look at their competition AND RULES tho.... END THREAD.

[Magic 32]

Hmmm he was guarded by the same man who held Kobe to 38% fg:cheers:

Hmmm those celtics were better than the Perkin-less 2010 Celtics:cheers:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/br-cdn/temp_images/2013/11/19/kick.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

The competition argument is interesting because MJ fans make it as well when saying "6/6"--when he had the team to win he always did, or so the story goes. So, in effect, the argument is MJ, the alleged GOAT, basically goes as far as his team can go? :wtf:

The argument for LeBron is he consistently elevates his team significantly beyond where it would be absent him.

[TheMan]

The competition argument is interesting because MJ fans make it as well when saying "6/6"--when he had the team to win he always did, or so the story goes. So, in effect, the argument is MJ, the alleged GOAT, basically goes as far as his team can go? :wtf:

The argument for LeBron is he consistently elevates his team significantly beyond where it would be absent him.
That 94 Bulls team lost in the second round. With MJ, they're at the very least in the Finals looking to Fourpeat. You can't be this dense :facepalm

Simple equation, MJ played 6 complete seasons with the Bulls in the 90s, each ended in titles, the lone year he missed, Bulls were out in the second round. Then he came back towards the end of the 95 season and led the .500 Bulls to a 60 win pace over the last month of the RS.

So over that 8 year span, every year MJ played a full season = NBA title

The two seasons he didn't = no title

B b b but MJ doesn't make his team better :oldlol: Literally breathtakingly stupid.

[juju151111]

The competition argument is interesting because MJ fans make it as well when saying "6/6"--when he had the team to win he always did, or so the story goes. So, in effect, the argument is MJ, the alleged GOAT, basically goes as far as his team can go? :wtf:

The argument for LeBron is he consistently elevates his team significantly beyond where it would be absent him.
What happened in 2011. :facepalm

[DonDadda59]

What is this bullshit? :lol

MJ goes up against arguably the GOAT team multiple times but it's the same as going up against Gilbert 'Yosemite Sam' Arenas' Wizards?

You look at the winning% discrepancy between conferences Historically and you'll see that the Eastern Conference post merger was at its worst in the early-mid 00s and right now.

Iverson made it to the finals with a worse supporting cast than Bron, and he actually won a game against the best playoff team of the past 15 years or so. Jason Kidd led a team with Kenyon Martin as his main offensive weapon to back to back finals berths and managed to lift 2 games off the Spurs. How'd Bron do once he was out of the East and faced SA?

[TheMan]

What is this bullshit? :lol

MJ goes up against arguably the GOAT team multiple times but it's the same as going up against Gilbert 'Yosemite Sam' Arenas' Wizards?

You look at the winning% discrepancy between conferences Historically and you'll see that the Eastern Conference post merger was at its worst in the early-mid 00s and right now.

Iverson made it to the finals with a worse supporting cast than Bron, and he actually won a game against the best playoff team of the past 15 years or so. Jason Kidd led a team with Kenyon Martin as his main offensive weapon to back to back finals berths and managed to lift 2 games off the Spurs. How'd Bron do once he was out of the East and faced SA?
:applause:

Bran got murked and had a terrible series but he got past dat LEastern C:rockon:

I'll put it like this, the 2011 Rose Bulls get to the Finals in the 07 EC. Big Deal.

[Calabis]

22 team leagues cannot be compared to 30 team leagues. The East was indeed historically bad early in the 2000's. However, the East won the title in 2004, 2006, 2008. The Pistons, Heat, Celtics, Magic, Cavs emerged as contenders in the latter half of the 2000's.

How about the conferences Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Shaq, Bird came in? It did not take any of them 4 years to get out the first round and 7 years to reach the Finals.

In 2008 the best two teams were in the East--the Celtics and the Pistons (who lost to the Cavs the previous year). That was the year where the West had great parity and the difference between the best Western record and the sixth best record was only 3 games. The Pistons gave the Celtics a tougher challenge than the Lakers did.

Also, regarding 2008, LeBron led a 45 win team (they were 0-7 without him that year) to 7 games against an all-time great 66 win team with KG/Pierce/Allen.

Jeez I dont know what the hell u are trying to prove here..this list of Bird, Russell etc how it didnt take them 4 years.....everyone of those guys played with HOF lineups and stacked rosters. This crap is amazing...Jordan is suppose to beat the Celtics with 3 chips in the 80's with Corzine, Woolridge, Banks, Paxson and Colter in his second full season in the NBA...,but those 2007 Wizards, Nets lol...Jordan easily beats those teams. Jordan got to the ECF with Pip avg 13/7/3......:facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

That 94 Bulls team lost in the second round. With MJ, they're at the very least in the Finals looking to Fourpeat. You can't be this dense :facepalm

Simple equation, MJ played 6 complete seasons with the Bulls in the 90s, each ended in titles, the lone year he missed, Bulls were out in the second round. Then he came back towards the end of the 95 season and led the .500 Bulls to a 60 win pace over the last month of the RS.

So over that 8 year span, every year MJ played a full season = NBA title

The two seasons he didn't = no title

B b b but MJ doesn't make his team better :oldlol: Literally breathtakingly stupid.

What kind of Bulls Fan would use 1994 as argument? :biggums:

The team lost TWO LESS Games in the Regular Season..

Then they were ROYALLY screwed by Hue Hollins... Otherwise they would have gone all the way!

[Mr Feeny]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/br-cdn/temp_images/2013/11/19/kick.gif

What the hell are we watching?

[TheCorporation]

And he was promptly fired--despite leading his team to a higher round each year of his tenure...

This thread exists because MJ fans repeatedly claim--as a matter of fact--that MJ would be in the Finals with the 07' Cavs when the MJ of reality, not mythology, was nowhere near the Finals with such teams. As Collins knew, as did his assistant Jackson and MJ's teammates, a big problem was MJ hogged the ball. LeBron has always understood basketball is a team game. It is no coincidence MJ started winning as soon as the Triangle was implemented and Pippen became the primary ballhandler. It is funny, Wilt had to learn this lesson but people act as if MJ did not.

Bingo was his name-o

[3ball]

why do you keep posting 3rd grade level analysis?

we already know that 1-star teams routinely won the 00's East (so lebron's help was enough), while 1 star teams couldn't win the 80's East (many HOF's required)

secondly, Jordan's teammates were young players with zero accolades, while lebron had a team of veterans and the future coach of the year, including an all-star teammate and a 22/5/5 all-defender.. its no comparison..

ultimately, lebron elevated a .500 team in 05' to high seed in 06/07, while MJ was elevating a 27-win team to .500 and 8 seed in 85'.. again, no comparison

lebron's conference was weak and his superior cast of decorated vets was superior, which is why his weaker stats got more wins.. lebron averaged 25 on 43% to make the 07' Finals (worse than MJ ever played).. mj averaged 36 ppg in the 85-87' playoffs

[TheCorporation]

why do you keep posting 3rd grade level analysis?

we already know that 1-star teams routinely won the 00's East (so lebron's help was enough), while 1 star teams couldn't win the 80's East (many HOF's required)

secondly, Jordan's teammates were young players with zero accolades, while lebron had a team of veterans and the future coach of the year, including an all-star teammate and a 22/5/5 all-defender.. its no comparison..

ultimately, lebron elevated a .500 team in 05' to high seed in 06/07, while MJ was elevating a 27-win team to .500 and 8 seed in 85'.. again, no comparison

lebron's conference was weak and his superior cast of decorated vets was superior, which is why his weaker stats got more wins.. lebron averaged 25 on 43% to make the 07' Finals (worse than MJ ever played).. mj averaged 36 ppg in the 85-87' playoffs

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

[HoopsNY]

Damn you made this thread since 2014? What were you thinking?

[TheCorporation]

Damn you made this thread since 2014? What were you thinking?

Shut up 3ball :lol

[HoopsNY]

Shut up 3ball :lol

Aw, my stalker is still around. Didn't get a life yet I see. :lol

[3ball]

you're comparing Lebron's high seed performance against low seeds (06-10'), to Jordan's 8 seed performance against dynasties (85-87').

Young Lebron only made the playoffs with developed, high seeds in a conference that 1 star teams were routinely winning, which you're comparing to Jordan's 8 seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win.

So instead of comparing high seeds to low seeds, you need to compare Jordan's low seeds from 85-87' to Lebron's low seeds from 04/05/19... Lebron is simply lucky that his 30-40 win teams missed the 8 vs 1 matchup against the 04' Pistons or the 19' Warriors, while Jordan's 30-40 win teams were forced to face dynasties..

[bullettooth]

Whats with the constant need to elevate LeBron above Jordan on this forum? I just don't get it.

The Zoomers on this forum have unfulfilled lives since they never got to see the GOAT (MJ) play, so to counter this, they're fooling themselves with the belief that LeBron is the GOAT. It's understandable.... but pathetic.

[TheCorporation]

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

3ball?

[3ball]

3ball?



* 05' Zydrunas

* 06' Zydrunas

* 05' Hughes

* 09' Mo Williams

* 10' Jamison


^^^ they all had higher PER, WS/48, scoring and efficiency than 90' Pippen.

So the 05-10' Cavs had numerous cast members with better offense than 90' Pippen, while having better team defenses as well (the 90' bulls had the #19 defense).

To summarize, the 05-10' Cavs had more help on both sides of the ball than the 85-90' Bulls, yet the Bulls nearly beat the champs in 89' or 90', while the Cavs were swept (07'), lottery (05') or beaten as the favorite (09' and 10').




3ball?


Pippen was an MVP candidate just like Blake Griffin, who was #3 in MVP in 2014.. or Paul George, who was #3 in 2019...

westbrook WON the damn thing in 2017.. Isaiah Thomas was #5 in 2017 before joining Lebron... Lillard was #4... Draymond was #7 in 2016..

and on... and on... and on... and on...

Having a top 5 MVP voting year means exactly nothing and puts you in the same class as guys like Blake Griffin and Tim Hardaway.




3ball?


guys like Marc Gasol were DPOY and won 55 games with 2nd Round loss... Ditto Lowry (55 wins with 2nd Round loss).. So everyone does it - the only reason Pippen got props for it is because it was such a shock, and thus a testament to MJ's dominance and carry-jobs.

Ultimately, the triangle is a 55-win offense if run to perfection, but only MJ or his clone (Kobe) could win with it.. Specifically, the offense put role players in optimal spots but still needed a bailout on 10-20% of possessions, so it was nothing for 50 years until it met the goat bailout artists it needed to win (MJ/Kobe) - then it won 11 rings in 18 years.




3ball?


Pippen's BPM in the 1994 Playoffs was only 5.6, which was beaten by Kukoc and nowhere near his high under Jordan - he was also 4th on the those Bulls in WS/48 and was simply FAR better as a 2nd option under Jordan in so many areas (BPM, WS/48, APG, and efficiency, while being only 1 point off his scoring peak despite his promotion to 1st option).

He also wasn't required to do anything in the clutch under Jordan, which was his worst area without Jordan and ultimate downfall (3 chokes in the 94' ECSF - the "sit out" game, the "dumb foul" game, and game 7).. He simply sucked as a #1 option.



3ball?


2007 Lebron had the #4 defense in the league

He also had a teammate that scored 31 points on 99% true shooting to closeout the ECF, while Lebron wet the bed with 3-11 and 20 points...

Jordan never wet the bed and needed a teammate to bail him out, whereas Lebron has needed bailouts MANY TIMES in his career..

Btw, in addition to the #4 defense and an assassin teammate to win the ECF, Lebron had a 2-time all-star center and a wing with 22/5/5 all-defender credentials

^^^ this is EASILY comparable to his peers in the East, where 1 star teams routinely won the conference (Iverson, Kidd, Lebron, Dwight).




3ball?

Zydrunas was an all-star before Lebron entered the NBA and rookie Lebron was "pippen" because Zydrunas led him in BPM, PER, WS/48, and blocks (#7 rim protector in the league).

Similarly, Larry Hughes was a 22/5/5 all-defender that Lebron destroyed

Finally, Mo Williams was an excellent player before turning the Cavs from 45-win bums to 66-win league favorites in 2009 - he did this by achieving superior BPM, PER, VORP and WS/48 than 90' Pippen, while the Cavs had the #3 defense (a better defense than the 1st three-peat Bulls).




3ball?


it's Lebron's fault for failing to get the same production out of Hughes that Arenas got - Hughes was a 22/6/5 first-team defender (pippen production) that Lebron reduced to rubble because he fits poorly with spotty-shooting, ball-handlers like Hughes, Pippen, Wade, Ingram, Rose, IT etc.

Otoh, Jordan had top offenses because his off-ball skillset allowed good brand/strategy and didn't force Pippen into spot-up roles, so Pippen could play to full capacity - with teammates playing to capacity and a good brand/strategy, the team could reach it's ceiling (6/6).




3ball?

Any team will be decent in the regular season if they play with a chip on their shoulder and have a 3-peat system that's ahead of the league - but they weren't "so good" because 55 wins and 2nd Round loss is pretty common.. they got exposed pretty hard in those playoffs, and then were aids the following year.. A pretty weak "peak" for a so-called great player (pippen).

Ultimately, the 94' Bulls ranked the same defensively (6th) as the 1st three-peat (7th, 4th, 7th)... So the massive drop-off from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd round loser was due entirely to the absence of Jordan's goat offense, which cratered the Bulls from #1 all-time ORtg during the 1st three-peat, to 14th in the league in 94'.

[TheCorporation]

* 05' Zydrunas

* 06' Zydrunas

* 05' Hughes

* 09' Mo Williams

* 10' Jamison


^^^ they all had higher PER, WS/48, scoring and efficiency than 90' Pippen.

So the 05-10' Cavs had numerous cast members with better offense than 90' Pippen, while having better team defenses as well (the 90' bulls had the #19 defense).

To summarize, the 05-10' Cavs had more help on both sides of the ball than the 85-90' Bulls, yet the Bulls nearly beat the champs in 89' or 90', while the Cavs were swept (07'), lottery (05') or beaten as the favorite (09' and 10').






Pippen was an MVP candidate just like Blake Griffin, who was #3 in MVP in 2014.. or Paul George, who was #3 in 2019...

westbrook WON the damn thing in 2017.. Isaiah Thomas was #5 in 2017 before joining Lebron... Lillard was #4... Draymond was #7 in 2016..

and on... and on... and on... and on...

Having a top 5 MVP voting year means exactly nothing and puts you in the same class as guys like Blake Griffin and Tim Hardaway.






guys like Marc Gasol were DPOY and won 55 games with 2nd Round loss... Ditto Lowry (55 wins with 2nd Round loss).. So everyone does it - the only reason Pippen got props for it is because it was such a shock, and thus a testament to MJ's dominance and carry-jobs.

Ultimately, the triangle is a 55-win offense if run to perfection, but only MJ or his clone (Kobe) could win with it.. Specifically, the offense put role players in optimal spots but still needed a bailout on 10-20% of possessions, so it was nothing for 50 years until it met the goat bailout artists it needed to win (MJ/Kobe) - then it won 11 rings in 18 years.






Pippen's BPM in the 1994 Playoffs was only 5.6, which was beaten by Kukoc and nowhere near his high under Jordan - he was also 4th on the those Bulls in WS/48 and was simply FAR better as a 2nd option under Jordan in so many areas (BPM, WS/48, APG, and efficiency, while being only 1 point off his scoring peak despite his promotion to 1st option).

He also wasn't required to do anything in the clutch under Jordan, which was his worst area without Jordan and ultimate downfall (3 chokes in the 94' ECSF - the "sit out" game, the "dumb foul" game, and game 7).. He simply sucked as a #1 option.





2007 Lebron had the #4 defense in the league

He also had a teammate that scored 31 points on 99% true shooting to closeout the ECF, while Lebron wet the bed with 3-11 and 20 points...

Jordan never wet the bed and needed a teammate to bail him out, whereas Lebron has needed bailouts MANY TIMES in his career..

Btw, in addition to the #4 defense and an assassin teammate to win the ECF, Lebron had a 2-time all-star center and a wing with 22/5/5 all-defender credentials

^^^ this is EASILY comparable to his peers in the East, where 1 star teams routinely won the conference (Iverson, Kidd, Lebron, Dwight).





Zydrunas was an all-star before Lebron entered the NBA and rookie Lebron was "pippen" because Zydrunas led him in BPM, PER, WS/48, and blocks (#7 rim protector in the league).

Similarly, Larry Hughes was a 22/5/5 all-defender that Lebron destroyed

Finally, Mo Williams was an excellent player before turning the Cavs from 45-win bums to 66-win league favorites in 2009 - he did this by achieving superior BPM, PER, VORP and WS/48 than 90' Pippen, while the Cavs had the #3 defense (a better defense than the 1st three-peat Bulls).






it's Lebron's fault for failing to get the same production out of Hughes that Arenas got - Hughes was a 22/6/5 first-team defender (pippen production) that Lebron reduced to rubble because he fits poorly with spotty-shooting, ball-handlers like Hughes, Pippen, Wade, Ingram, Rose, IT etc.

Otoh, Jordan had top offenses because his off-ball skillset allowed good brand/strategy and didn't force Pippen into spot-up roles, so Pippen could play to full capacity - with teammates playing to capacity and a good brand/strategy, the team could reach it's ceiling (6/6).





Any team will be decent in the regular season if they play with a chip on their shoulder and have a 3-peat system that's ahead of the league - but they weren't "so good" because 55 wins and 2nd Round loss is pretty common.. they got exposed pretty hard in those playoffs, and then were aids the following year.. A pretty weak "peak" for a so-called great player (pippen).

Ultimately, the 94' Bulls ranked the same defensively (6th) as the 1st three-peat (7th, 4th, 7th)... So the massive drop-off from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd round loser was due entirely to the absence of Jordan's goat offense, which cratered the Bulls from #1 all-time ORtg during the 1st three-peat, to 14th in the league in 94'.

Meltdown

LBJ > MJ