Tracy McGrady - What Could've Been

[Smook A.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LhYCyQrfevo

:applause:

[JebronLames]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LhYCyQrfevo

:applause:
Steve Kerr :facepalm

[Fudge]

:(

Shit makes me sad.

Guy had the talent in the world to be the GOAT. Like, literally could've been the GOAT.

[Smook A.]

:(

Shit makes me sad.

Guy had the talent in the world to be the GOAT. Like, literally could've been the GOAT.
Those damn injuries man. Shit sucks

[RoundMoundOfReb]

He's getting a bit overrated nowadays

[JohnFreeman]

He's getting a bit overrated nowadays
Agreed

[Soundwave]

Should've stayed in Toronto, would've made the Finals 2-3 times at least.

That's the funny thing today is superstars all want to team up, T-Mac had that gift wrapped to him and wanted to be "the man" on his own.

[Smook A.]

He's getting a bit overrated nowadays
He really had the potential to be great though. Before he turned 25 he had 2 scoring titles. He averaged 32 ppg one season. T-Mac was extremely athletic. He was just so versatile in every way

If he didn't have injuries, who knows how good he would've been.

[East_Stone_Ya]

but really how much did T-Mac contribute to making a team better? He was really gifted scorer but it didn't always translate into a team success.

[JohnFreeman]

but really how much did T-Mac contribute to making a team better? He was really gifted scorer but it didn't always translate into a team success.
Bit like Durant

[Smook A.]

Bit like Durant
Durant is only 25 has been to one NBA finals and 3 conference finals. Wtf are you talking about? Thats more than LeBron when he was 25.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Grant Hill edition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQlg3wu5_Io

Pretty cool since he's there to give his take on it.

[played0ut]

He really had the potential to be great though. Before he turned 25 he had 2 scoring titles. He averaged 32 ppg one season. T-Mac was extremely athletic. He was just so versatile in every way

If he didn't have injuries, who knows how good he would've been.

T-Mac said fairly recent on Open Court that when they introduced zones his PPG dropped to 25 or so. At that point he was tempted to call MJ to ask for advice, but he didn't.



Anyway, he's great but i don't think he could've become GOAT. To be GOAT you need sort of a perfect storm-- skill, luck, mindset, and timing.

He had more than enough talent, but lacked the unrelenting drive and focus of the top competitors (West, Russell, MJ, Kobe, Bird and Magic).

[Smook A.]

T-Mac said fairly recent on Open Court that when they introduced zones his PPG dropped to 25 or so. At that point he was tempted to call MJ to ask for advice, but he didn't.



Anyway, he's great but i don't think he could've become GOAT. To be GOAT you need sort of a perfect storm-- skill, luck, mindset, and timing.

He had more than enough talent, but lacked the unrelenting drive and focus of the top competitors (West, Russell, MJ, Kobe, Bird and Magic).
All T-Mac needed was a fire under his skin. Thats pretty much all he lacked. Eveything was there for him... the talent, the athleticism. He had all the tools but he just didnt have that competitive look on his face.

[JohnFreeman]

Durant is only 25 has been to one NBA finals and 3 conference finals. Wtf are you talking about? Thats more than LeBron when he was 25.
Fairly sure LeBron went to the finals when he was 25..

[Smook A.]

Fairly sure LeBron went to the finals when he was 25..
Im pretty sure he was 26 years old in the 2011 NBA Finals (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html)

Kevin Durant at age 25 - 1 Finals, 3 conference finals
LeBron James at age 25 - 1 Finals, 2 conference finals

You're like 10 bro

[JohnFreeman]

Im pretty sure he was 26 years old in the 2011 NBA Finals (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html)

You're like 10 bro
Forgetting 07 bro?

[Indian guy]

T-Mac said fairly recent on Open Court that when they introduced zones his PPG dropped to 25 or so.

Zone was introduced in the 01-02 season. T-Mac's 2 highest ppg seasons were '03 and '04. And particularly because of 2003, we tend to romanticize his career. That was such an outlier of a season for him, never before or after did he come anywhere close to that kind of production. He was always a mid-20's ppg guy on decent efficiency. His real issues, as you pointed out, were the intangibles. I don't think I've ever seen a superstar that was so lacking in the non-boxscore stuff. Things like leadership, mental toughness and drive....combined he probably possessed less of it than any other great. A guy like that cannot be relied upon when the going gets tough, and this is why he had such a lousy playoff record.

[Smook A.]

Forgetting 07 bro?
Dude you're retarded as hell.

I said BY THE AGE OF 25. When LeBron was 25 he already had 1 finals appearance. Exactly what I said but you misunderstood it

[JohnFreeman]

Durant is only 25 has been to one NBA finals and 3 conference finals. Wtf are you talking about? Thats more than LeBron when he was 25.
Didn't really specify did you bro?

[Smook A.]

Didn't really specify did you bro?

Lol read my post again


Durant is only 25 and has been to one NBA finals and 3 conference finals. Wtf are you talking about? Thats more than LeBron when he was 25.
You honestly think a guy can make 3 conference finals and 1 finals in 1 year? If you actually understood the post you would've known what I meant. BY THE AGE OF 25

[eliteballer]

McGrady at 23 was better than Durant at 25. More skilled(creating his own shot, passing) and more athletic.

McGrady had everything, he just didn't have the durability, which might partially be blamed on his trainer. Apparently videos of his workouts his form is all wrong and puts too much pressure on his back/knees.

[JohnFreeman]

McGrady at 23 was better than Durant at 25. More skilled(creating his own shot, passing) and more athletic.

McGrady had everything, he just didn't have the durability, which might partially be blamed on his trainer. Apparently videos of his workouts his form is all wrong and puts too much pressure on his back/knees.
Agreed.

[BoutPractice]

I'm not too sure about the traditional explanation for TMac's career.

He certainly had that killer instinct - Spurs fans can testify to that. Sure, he wasn't borderline psychotic like Kobe. But his real problem, the real sources of his supposedly "disappointing" career were two things:

1) the same problem all basketball in the early 00s suffered from: he prioritized the aesthetically pretty over the effective. Aside from 02-03, the one year where he was truly elite, TMac was consistently an inefficient scorer by most statistical measures. Much less efficient than Kobe, for instance, and often less efficient than Iverson himself. (And let's not use the "he had little help" excuse because he managed to be efficient in 03 with a supporting cast that makes Kobe's mid-00s teammates look decent) For some reason Kobe gets killed for shot jacking but TMac doesn't. In addition to his predilection for contested pullups and beautiful fadeaways (one constant about TMac: he never shot straight, his body was always contorting in some way), he was quite underwhelming when it came to doing all the little things that contribute to winning but don't look good on TV. Kobe also wanted to be the hero on TV, it's what drives him, but his psychotic pride takes him a step further.

2) injuries. Let's not act like they had no effect on his performance. He could've had a much better career as the exact same player were it not for injuries. Not a first tier all-time great, but much higher up everyone's rankings.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I'm not too sure about the traditional explanation for TMac's career.

He certainly had that killer instinct - Spurs fans can testify to that. Sure, he wasn't borderline psychotic like Kobe. But his real problem, the real sources of his supposedly "disappointing" career were two things:

1) the same problem all basketball in the early 00s suffered from: he prioritized the aesthetically pretty over the effective. Aside from 02-03, the one year where he was truly elite, TMac was consistently an inefficient scorer by most statistical measures. Much less efficient than Kobe, for instance, and often less efficient than Iverson himself. (And let's not use the "he had little help" excuse because he managed to be efficient in 03 with a supporting cast that makes Kobe's mid-00s teammates look decent) For some reason Kobe gets killed for shot jacking but TMac doesn't. In addition to his predilection for contested pullups and beautiful fadeaways (one constant about TMac: he never shot straight, his body was always contorting in some way), he was quite underwhelming when it came to doing all the little things that contribute to winning but don't look good on TV. Kobe also wanted to be the hero on TV, it's what drives him, but his psychotic pride takes him a step further.

2) injuries. Let's not act like they had no effect on his performance. He could've had a much better career as the exact same player were it not for injuries. Not a first tier all-time great, but much higher up everyone's rankings.
well said

[eliteballer]

I'm not too sure about the traditional explanation for TMac's career.

He certainly had that killer instinct - Spurs fans can testify to that. Sure, he wasn't borderline psychotic like Kobe. But his real problem, the real sources of his supposedly "disappointing" career were two things:

1) the same problem all basketball in the early 00s suffered from: he prioritized the aesthetically pretty over the effective. Aside from 02-03, the one year where he was truly elite, TMac was consistently an inefficient scorer by most statistical measures. Much less efficient than Kobe, for instance, and often less efficient than Iverson himself. (And let's not use the "he had little help" excuse because he managed to be efficient in 03 with a supporting cast that makes Kobe's mid-00s teammates look decent) For some reason Kobe gets killed for shot jacking but TMac doesn't. In addition to his predilection for contested pullups and beautiful fadeaways (one constant about TMac: he never shot straight, his body was always contorting in some way), he was quite underwhelming when it came to doing all the little things that contribute to winning but don't look good on TV. Kobe also wanted to be the hero on TV, it's what drives him, but his psychotic pride takes him a step further.

2) injuries. Let's not act like they had no effect on his performance. He could've had a much better career as the exact same player were it not for injuries. Not a first tier all-time great, but much higher up everyone's rankings.

Look at his teams in Orl before criticizing him for these things, and in Houston he had a coach who can't coach offense. His first year with Yao Van Gundy insisted on running the offense through Yao until about halfway through the season when he realized McGrady would be a better option.

[BoutPractice]

Except Yao was the better option as the finisher (and the better player overall compared to injured Houston TMac, if we go by advanced stats). 07 Yao, for instance, scored 25 ppg on 60 TS%, while 07 TMac scored about the same amount (1.5 per less per 36 minutes to be exact) but on 51 TS%. I remember this team well. If you could get the ball to Yao in the post, you were very likely to get the basket... if you relied on TMac to create a shot from the perimeter, it was always more speculative. TMac could be the primary creator and second finisher. It had the potential to be a fantastic duo if they'd completely figured out how the two needed to interact on the court + not both been so injury prone.

And note that again, TMac's most efficient year came with a terrible supporting cast, proving that it is something he had some degree of control over.

I'm not saying any of this to diminish TMac, in my view he's a HOFer and an all-time great. In fact I'm defending him of accusations that project all sorts of psychological assumptions into his on the court performance, when said performance is mostly (not entirely but mostly) explained by physical factors (how a certain player plays, what kind of shots he takes, and how his body is holding up).