Better Player in his PRIME: LeBron James or Larry Bird? (Video)

[Round Mound]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHvwJla9BbI

Discuss. :rockon:

[tpols]

Bird.. 100/100.

Didnt even have to see him play.

[RedBlackAttack]

For me, Bird's peak is only behind Jordan for the guys I've actually watched live. It didn't last as long as it probably should have, but man... he was amazing to watch.

In fact, I might say that, at his peak, he was the greatest all-around offensive player I have ever seen (again, in my lifetime). The reason I rank Jordan in front of him is the gap defensively.

He was such a unique blend of offensive talents, I think it is hard for people who didn't live through his best play to understand how unstoppable he was.

You're talking about a 6-foot-9, strong player who could playmake like an elite point guard, was one of the greatest shooters of all-time, absolutely deadly on the low block when he took it there, unstoppable in transition with his vision/balance/skillset/athleticism (yes, he was a great athlete), could bang down low for tough rebounds, was a great leader who always turned it up when the pressure was on...

You could put that guy in any offense on any team and he will fit in seamlessly and differently depending upon what that team needed. There aren't too many guys who were capable of being elite in so many different ways, offensively. You need a low post scorer, he could bring it. You need a guy to run pick-and-rolls/pops, he could do it. You need floor spacing, he brings it. You need a ball-handler/playmaker, he could do it.

There is literally nothing on the offensive end that he didn't do well.

And, while he was no Dennis Rodman on the defensive end, he also wasn't as bad as some people make it out to be. He could hold his own on that side of the ball and was actually really good at disrupting passing lanes and defensive rebounding, both of which would immediately lead to a kickstarted offense heading the other direction because of his great transition game.

[kennethgriffin]

lol she jinxed the f*ck out of lebron... so did bill simmons

all this larry bird talk is ruining the moment


kobes at 5 titles and even he's still battling bird on the all time list.

you cant just tie a legend in rings. you gotta do allot more just to pass them cause they came first.

its amazing to me that nayones picking lebron.

yeah both kobe and lebron are better players than bird. but bird came first. he played in a tougher era. he helped grow the league.. these are tough things to overcome


honestly comparing guys in totally different eras is stupid.


all we can truly know is whos the best of their eras


60s wilt/russell
70s kareem/erving
80s bird/magic
90s jordan/hakeem
00s kobe/shaq/duncan
10s lebron/durant

argue between eras... not 2-3 eras back


totally different game, style, pace, competition, players, coaches, systems, growth, drugs, trainers, schemes, media, awards, rules... totally different game. might aswell be called NBO or the NBF or NBI.. each era should have a different class in itself


enough

[bizil]

U could go either way. But for me, I would take Bron. U are talking arguably the most versatile player of all time along with KG when u include both sides of the rock. I admit Bird is the better scorer due to scoring skillset and clutch factor. But Bron numbers wise is EVERY BIT the scorer Bird is. And while Bird is as good of a passer from a stationary position ever, Bron has the vision, handles, AND pace of an elite PG. For me, Bron can score just as good AND can fill more holes than Bird. So I will roll with Bron, but I would never argue if one said Bird.

I put Bird, Bron, and Magic in their own special class anyway. Because of their size and versatility, they can always move to a PF position when age or need dictates. In their respective eras, they were as big as many PF's in the L. It makes them unique from other perimeter immortals such as MJ, Kobe, Big O, West, Dr. J, Hondo, Baylor, Wade, etc.

[GimmeThat]

Never watched Bird Play

But I take Lebron James from looking at their stats.

And from comparing their video and playing style here's the biggest reason.

Lebron's ability to control the pace of the game is somewhat negated by Larry Legends shooting ability as well as rebounding.

But I don't think anyone expected Lebron to be this effective, especially right around the basket and his 3 point shot.

not to mention the slight defensive edge.


I do think that had Larry Bird been with the Heat, they would have needed another PF/C instead of Ray Allen in order to 3 peat.

Most likely a Center because I don't think you can get away with Bosh playing Center defensively when Bird is your 3.


Brons versatility at a slow and controlled pace is something special. I really wonder what his stats would be just even at a slightly faster tempo. Just to add on, their defensive tempo is fast, not the offense they run.

[SHAQisGOAT]

ESPN :facepalm

I wrote this a while ago on another thread:

Gimme peak/prime Bird, still.

Larry Legend was a better shooter from pretty much everywhere, better in the post, better footwork, greater soft-touch with either hand, better passer, better rebounder and hustled more, better team and post defender (James is above in overall D though, mostly because of athleticism), above in terms of intangibles, things like clutch-play, leadership, physicality, agressiveness, mind toughness, basketball IQ, court-awareness...
Also, he could score and dominate in many different ways, no clear strategy against a guy like him, he could adjust to any offensive/defensive strategy and could mesh with any type of teammate, knew when to step down and when to step up, and never needed to overhandle the ball, didn't change (for the worse) the "game" of some of his best teammates.
Very close but Bird's the best overall player, at their best.

Y'all wanna talk about McHale or Parish? Ok. Before they even got there Bird led the Celtics from 2nd worst record (29W) to the best record (61W) in the league, with basically the same roster, as a rookie. In 1981, Cowens got traded and they got Parish who was already 27 and never viewed as all that, and Bird led them to a title, as a sophomore; McHale was a non-factor at that point, averaged like 8/3 in the playoffs, in fact not even in 1984 did McHale averaged more than 15 in the Playoffs, and only really came into his own by 1985, then injuring himself in 1987.
When Bird was out in 1989, Celtics dropped by 15W and were swept in the 1st round, and this is with the "addition" of Reggie Lewis coming into his own.. Larry comes back as a shell in 1990 and they win 10 more.

Parish wouldn't have been a HoF'er if he stayed in GS, DJ the same if he never joined the Celtics. Only McHale can I see being one in many situations (and Walton but he only was there as a shell for a season), if he didn't get injured too soon. People only look at names or fame and such, Bird had great teammates yea but he also played in a tremendous league and "made" teammates.

Look at "examples" like the 1984 Playoffs... With his teammates really underperforming, Larry "carried" them to the title, facing great competition, even the mighty and super-stacked showtime Lakers in the Finals. Doing things like going wild on the Lakers, killing a great Bucks team, outscoring peak Bernard King.
He led the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT%, and was 3rd in blocks and 3P% with more 3's taken (!!!)
Larry scored 10 more than the next "best" teammate, and looking at %'s:
Bird - 52.4% FG
DJ/Parish/McHale/Henderson/Maxwell combined (ones scoring over 10 ppg) - 46.9% FG
All of the Celtics' players combined, excluding Bird - 45.8% FG
League average (post-season) - 48.2% FG

In 1986, things were clicking, everything "aligned", great teammates and whatnot, look at what happened... He did even way more than what he was supposed to, they just raped the whole league and he was playing unreal basketball, leading the way for arguably the GOAT team.

With Larry as their leader, the Celtics beat 10 50+ wins teams in 9 prime seasons (before injuries), when Lebron didn't even reach 7 in 11 years ahahah... Not to mention 60 win teams, shit he went against dynasties and some of the greatest, most stacked teams ever.

Faced competition for MVP, like Magic, Kareem, Moses, Jordan, Erving, Wilkins, King, Gervin... And played in the best, deepest era for SF's, the position he played during his best years. Lebron ain't ****ing with that.

Also, Bird didn't play in a soft-ass league with today's high level of superstar treatment and things of that nature, rules like traveling or offensive fouls don't even matter sometimes. Nowadays you can't even breathe on a player when he's shooting Larry was getting held and scratched, getting checked hard on his way to the rim, roughed up in the post, so on, and he just came back more agressive and playing better, trash-talking people, he didn't have this modern medicine and other "luxuries" and played through shit that most wouldn't even been on the bench... Lebron complains about physicality, looks at the refs everytime, gets way with tremendous star treatment and soft-calls, plus travels and offensive fouls, so on.. lmfao. Try something like the rip-through move in the 80's and refs wouldn't even look at you

Larry played in a much tougher league, faced more competition in terms of teams and stars, and he didn't join two already established superstars, one a top5 player (wanna talk about his stacked cast or something, read the above and don't go by names).

Larry Bird = GOAT forward
People who actually know their basketball and saw enough from both, will tell you the same. Put that shit to rest.

[RedBlackAttack]

U could go either way. But for me, I would take Bron. U are talking arguably the most versatile player of all time along with KG when u include both sides of the rock. I admit Bird is the better scorer due to scoring skillset and clutch factor. But Bron numbers wise is EVERY BIT the scorer Bird is. And while Bird is as good of a passer from a stationary position ever, Bron has the vision, handles, AND pace of an elite PG. For me, Bron can score just as good AND can fill more holes than Bird. So I will roll with Bron, but I would never argue if one said Bird.

I put Bird, Bron, and Magic in their own special class anyway. Because of their size and versatility, they can always move to a PF position when age of need dictates. In their respective eras, they were as big as many PF's in the L. It makes them unique from other perimeter immortals such as MJ, Kobe, Big O, West, Dr. J, Hondo, Baylor, Wade, etc.
Read my post above.

It wasn't just scoring and passing "from a stationary position." A lot of Bird's assists came from playmaking. And, the fact that he was lethal from anywhere on the floor in almost any offensive set, the defenses had to open up and this made his passing even more brutal for opponents... They could come from dribble-drives, the high post, the low post, the perimeter. And, he was so damn quick with his decision making and touch passes. Bird would often pass the ball in mid-dribble if he had the defense on its heels.

http://images.rapgenius.com/234d08250d7b780f84b30a602881ba6e.348x200x63.gif

He was also known for being basically automatic in transition.




James is awesome at what he does... don't get me wrong. He's maybe the best I've ever seen at getting the ball on the wing or straight-away and driving to the basket for either a score himself or to set up a teammate. He's also one of the very best transition players I've ever seen.

But, I take pretty much the exact opposite stance to you when it comes to versatility. The reason I'd take Bird's peak, at least right now, is because he could fit seamlessly into any offense, depending on what they needed at that moment, and it didn't always involve having the ball in his hands.

You need an instant floor spacer? He could do it. You need a guy on the block who could score efficiently and set up teammates? He could do that. You need a playmaker? He could do it? You need a 25 point quarter? He was capable of it. Someone to bang downlow and get you 12-15 rebounds on a given night? He could do it. Get out and run the floor to devastate teams? Yep.

LeBron's offensive game, as great as it is, has always been much more predictable. He prefers the dribble drives from wing or the top of the key to set his game up, either as a scorer or playmaker. When he doesn't have the ball in his hands, teams can take him out of the game, especially in the playoffs when things really tighten up and slow down.


On what may have been the greatest single team I've seen in my lifetime, Bird averaged 26 points on 52% from the field, 9+ rebounds and 8+ assists, with a usage rate of 23.3% in the playoffs (1986). That is just mind blowing.

For context, LeBron has a usage rate of 31.3% so far in these playoffs.

[tpols]

wow.. just rewatched the interview. That bitch is dumb

[atljonesbro]

LeBron. Could see why 80s fans would pick Bird though, no one played defense back in the 80s so that's what they grew accustom to.

[SHAQisGOAT]

For me, Bird's peak is only behind Jordan for the guys I've actually watched live. It didn't last as long as it probably should have, but man... he was amazing to watch.

In fact, I might say that, at his peak, he was the greatest all-around offensive player I have ever seen (again, in my lifetime). The reason I rank Jordan in front of him is the gap defensively.

He was such a unique blend of offensive talents, I think it is hard for people who didn't live through his best play to understand how unstoppable he was.

You're talking about a 6-foot-9, strong player who could playmake like an elite point guard, was one of the greatest shooters of all-time, absolutely deadly on the low block when he took it there, unstoppable in transition with his vision/balance/skillset/athleticism (yes, he was a great athlete), could bang down low for tough rebounds, was a great leader who always turned it up when the pressure was on...

You could put that guy in any offense on any team and he will fit in seamlessly and differently depending upon what that team needed. There aren't too many guys who were capable of being elite in so many different ways, offensively. You need a low post scorer, he could bring it. You need a guy to run pick-and-rolls/pops, he could do it. You need floor spacing, he brings it. You need a ball-handler/playmaker, he could do it.

There is literally nothing on the offensive end that he didn't do well.

And, while he was no Dennis Rodman on the defensive end, he also wasn't as bad as some people make it out to be. He could hold his own on that side of the ball and was actually really good at disrupting passing lanes and defensive rebounding, both of which would immediately lead to a kickstarted offense heading the other direction because of his great transition game.

:applause:

Bird's underrated af on defense though.
Celtics improved from one of the worst to one of the best defensive teams when he (and coach Fitch) came around, with basically the same roster, as he was 1st in DWS and 6th in DRtg... He led in DWS 4 times and has the most overall in the 80s, 2nd in DRtg once and 6x in the top10, other forwards doing stuff like that were Duncan, KG, Rodman, Pippen, Hayes, and few others, so you can see the level, and Larry raised that in the PS. Was averaging 2 SPG and 1 BPG also, and plenty of times kept his matchup below his(opponent) standards.
Fact is that Bird's one of the greatest team defenders ever, his impact also came plenty from defense as his teams were always considerably better on D with him on the court, he never got lost on rotations, he knew how to draw charges, he had terrific defensive IQ and really quick hands, could use his size and had lots of strength, protected the paint, played passing lanes, good post-defender and before back issues held his own on the perimeter (even more than that in his early years), great defensive rebounder if you wanna count that too..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U

[SHAQisGOAT]

LeBron. Could see why 80s fans would pick Bird though, no one played defense back in the 80s so that's what they grew accustom to.

DRtg's about the same though :confusedshrug: And back then team offense was just better, that makes it harder on the defense and takes you places (ask the old-ass Spurs)

[SHAQisGOAT]

Read my post above.

It wasn't just scoring and passing "from a stationary position." A lot of Bird's assists came from playmaking. And, the fact that he was lethal from anywhere on the floor in almost any offensive set, the defenses had to open up and this made his passing even more brutal for opponents... They could come from dribble-drives, the high post, the low post, the perimeter. And, he was so damn quick with his decision making and touch passes. Bird would often pass the ball in mid-dribble if he had the defense on its heels.

http://images.rapgenius.com/234d08250d7b780f84b30a602881ba6e.348x200x63.gif

He was also known for being basically automatic in transition.




James is awesome at what he does... don't get me wrong. He's maybe the best I've ever seen at getting the ball on the wing or straight-away and driving to the basket for either a score himself or to set up a teammate. He's also one of the very best transition players I've ever seen.

But, I take pretty much the exact opposite stance to you when it comes to versatility. The reason I'd take Bird's peak, at least right now, is because he could fit seamlessly into any offense, depending on what they needed at that moment, and it didn't always involve having the ball in his hands.

You need an instant floor spacer? He could do it. You need a guy on the block who could score efficiently and set up teammates? He could do that. You need a playmaker? He could do it? You need a 25 point quarter? He was capable of it. Someone to bang downlow and get you 12-15 rebounds on a given night? He could do it. Get out and run the floor to devastate teams? Yep.

LeBron's offensive game, as great as it is, has always been much more predictable. He prefers the dribble drives from wing or the top of the key to set his game up, either as a scorer or playmaker. When he doesn't have the ball in his hands, teams can take him out of the game, especially in the playoffs when things really tighten up and slow down.


On what may have been the greatest single team I've seen in my lifetime, Bird averaged 26 points on 52% from the field, 9+ rebounds and 8+ assists, with a usage rate of 23.3% in the playoffs (1986). That is just mind blowing.

For context, LeBron has a usage rate of 31.3% so far in these playoffs.


:applause: :applause: :applause:

[GimmeThat]

the force of Jerry West > Dwayne Wade regardless of ring count is strong here.

[MavsSuperFan]

The only thing bird has on Lebron is shooting and mental toughness.

Lebron is better in all other ways.

[RedBlackAttack]

:applause:

Bird's underrated af on defense though.
Celtics improved from one of the worst to one of the best defensive teams when he (and coach Fitch) came around, with basically the same roster, as he was 1st in DWS and 6th in DRtg... He led in DWS 4 times and has the most overall in the 80s, 2nd in DRtg once and 6x in the top10, other forwards doing stuff like that were Duncan, KG, Rodman, Pippen, Hayes, and few others, so you can see the level, and Larry raised that in the PS. Was averaging 2 SPG and 1 BPG also, and plenty of times kept his matchup below his(opponent) standards.
Fact is that Bird's one of the greatest team defenders ever, his impact also came plenty from defense as his teams were always considerably better on D with him on the court, he never got lost on rotations, he knew how to draw charges, he had terrific defensive IQ and really quick hands, could use his size and had lots of strength, protected the paint, played passing lanes, good post-defender and before back issues held his own on the perimeter (even more than that in his early years), great defensive rebounder if you wanna count that too..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U


Yes, this newfangled idea that Bird was an atrocious defender in his prime isn't remotely accurate. He wasn't the guy who was going to take the opponent's best player and shut him down with his one-on-one defense, but his combination of size, length, athleticism and basketball IQ were enough to make him a key cog on arguably the best defensive team in the NBA during his prime.

And, yes, he was an elite defensive rebounder for a 3.


As for this stuff about not playing defense back then, guys were allowed to be much more physical defensively and the league was loaded with legitimate 7-foot+ centers who could play defense. It's no coincidence that several of the best defensive teams in the NBA today are the very few with legitimate centers protecting the rim... And we're not talking about Mark Eaton, Hakeem Olajuwon and Patrick Ewing, here.

I'm hoping Embiid turns into that, but the league really doesn't have anyone protecting the rim like those guys did.

[LeBird]

Bird has the maybe the greatest prime ever - I mean, including everyone, any position. Elite scorer, rebounder, passer, fantastic team defence, maybe the most clutch player on Earth with the kind of intangibles that are fairy tale like in terms of how he improved his team and those around him.

And it was a longass one too - yes his career overall was cut short, but if it hadn't there just would be no debate on the GOAT IMO. He comes into the league in his Rookie year and is 4th in MVP voting. Then the next 3 years he consecutively gets runner-up in the MVP voting. Then 3 years in a row of winning the MVP, 3rd once and then 2nd again. This is all in a 9 year span: 4th, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 2nd. In the toughest era in NBA history where you have multiple dynasties he won 3 rings with a team he picked up as paupers. Pistons, Sixers, Lakers, even the Bucks and Rockets. Dr J, Moses, Magic, Kareem, Jordan, Isiah and even more. It's utterly ridiculous.

Then you look at how he came into the NBA; going to the final of the NCAA with 4 dudes they got on a pick up truck and he carried them undefeated. Imagine, just imagineeeee, if he had gone to the Lakers instead of the Celtics. For me, you're talking about rivalling Russell's ring collection in that scenario.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Never watched Bird Play

But I take Lebron James from looking at their stats.

And from comparing their video and playing style here's the biggest reason.

Lebron's ability to control the pace of the game is somewhat negated by Larry Legends shooting ability as well as rebounding.

But I don't think anyone expected Lebron to be this effective, especially right around the basket and his 3 point shot.

not to mention the slight defensive edge.


I do think that had Larry Bird been with the Heat, they would have needed another PF/C instead of Ray Allen in order to 3 peat.

Most likely a Center because I don't think you can get away with Bosh playing Center defensively when Bird is your 3.


Brons versatility at a slow and controlled pace is something special. I really wonder what his stats would be just even at a slightly faster tempo. Just to add on, their defensive tempo is fast, not the offense they run.

After those two first paragraphs (smdh) I shouldn't even bother but whatever...

Larry dominated in pretty much any way possible.
He was just as impactful being ball-dominant or non-ball-dominant.. he was great at creating his own shot on the outside or on the inside, he was great off-ball with terrific shooting and movement (even offense for others like setting screens), he wasted no motion and executed really quickly, he could playmake off the dribble like in pick-n-rolls and so on, he could playmake from the post, set up plays not even for him, hockey assists, he could create an easy basket right after the ball touched his hand or even off of rebounds, he was amazing at reading what the defense gave him, he could and adaptaded to any strategy by his team offensively or by the opponents defensively, he knew how to work to his teammates strengths, he shared the ball and knew when to step up and when to step down, he had no needs in changing teammates' game (for the worse) for him to impact or dominate the game... Gimme that over Bron's ability to control the pace of the game, or whatever you wanna call it.
Just the way he would impact a game on offense, plenty of times not dominating the ball much at all, the way he could put up huge numbers with really low USG% for a superstar, plus the impact on the boards and on defense (especially team)... ridiculous.


:coleman: Bird at PF > Bron at PF, c'mon man..
Bird was a better post-defender than James, better at drawing charges, taller and better paint-protector (from a big stand-point, let's say), better rebounder, more agressive and more physical.. (better qualities on offense too, like post-game).
Larry came into the league as a PF and was more "natural" at the 4, due to size and athleticism, call him a ridiculous all-around stretch 4, he was also better at guarding the post and more impactful when roaming around because his team defense was great. On offense he was always more of a PF (even when guarding SF's in his early days) but had to switch permanently to the 3 when the Celtics needed McHale to start, he was becoming just great and the C's didn't have no better option.
In this league Larry would've definitely been playing PF, as the height average is lower, there's less quality bigmen, more small ball played, he's better suited and there would be no PF to make him "move" to the 3... and with his game (and looking at the league) he would just beast at the 4.
So that argument makes no damn sense, really.

And when people mention stuff like pace, they never "remember" to talk about "ball-dominance" or less ball-dominant players like Bird when compared to other superstars.
When you got really ball-dominant players/superstars, most of the times, is "easier" for them to put up better numbers (scoring and passing) at a slower pace because they get to control the ball more, run more possessions, take their time while working for the points or the assist. At a faster pace a star can be involved in more possessions yea, but his time with the ball in his hands and/or his USG% is likely to be lower since he won't dominate and manipulate those possessions to the same extent.
Say, if Jordan played for the 80's Celtics or some team along those lines, he might've theoretically been involved in more possessions but he wouldn't have been dominating them to the same extent, as the ball would be moving spontaneously, within the flow of the game, between their other players.

I don't get why people never bring up who's dominating the ball a whole lot more, or USG%... Would make more sense even, or holds higher ground.
Not to mention that pace is "only" about 10% higher, so not much of a difference at all, especially for superstars... Case also proven by Bird averaging the same at "today'"s pace: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po1M--HaINA

[SHAQisGOAT]

The only thing bird has on Lebron is shooting and mental toughness.

Lebron is better in all other ways.

:rolleyes: :facepalm :lol

Let's neglect post-game, footwork, ability to score from close with either hand, pure passing, overall "all-aroundness", rebounding and hustle capability, post-D, team D, most intangibles like clutchness, leadership, IQ, court-awareness and vision, agressiveness/toughness/physicality...
...
Guess all that ain't part of a player's "game" though :confusedshrug:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Yes, this newfangled idea that Bird was an atrocious defender in his prime isn't remotely accurate. He wasn't the guy who was going to take the opponent's best player and shut him down with his one-on-one defense, but his combination of size, length, athleticism and basketball IQ were enough to make him a key cog on arguably the best defensive team in the NBA during his prime.

And, yes, he was an elite defensive rebounder for a 3.


As for this stuff about not playing defense back then, guys were allowed to be much more physical defensively and the league was loaded with legitimate 7-foot+ centers who could play defense. It's no coincidence that several of the best defensive teams in the NBA today are the very few with legitimate centers protecting the rim... And we're not talking about Mark Eaton, Hakeem Olajuwon and Patrick Ewing, here.

I'm hoping Embiid turns into that, but the league really doesn't have anyone protecting the rim like those guys did.

Well said. Some great posts you dropped on this thread :applause:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bird has the maybe the greatest prime ever - I mean, including everyone, any position. Elite scorer, rebounder, passer, fantastic team defence, maybe the most clutch player on Earth with the kind of intangibles that are fairy tale like in terms of how he improved his team and those around him.

And it was a longass one too - yes his career overall was cut short, but if it hadn't there just would be no debate on the GOAT IMO. He comes into the league in his Rookie year and is 4th in MVP voting. Then the next 3 years he consecutively gets runner-up in the MVP voting. Then 3 years in a row of winning the MVP, 3rd once and then 2nd again. This is all in a 9 year span: 4th, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 2nd. In the toughest era in NBA history where you have multiple dynasties he won 3 rings with a team he picked up as paupers. Pistons, Sixers, Lakers, even the Bucks and Rockets. Dr J, Moses, Magic, Kareem, Jordan, Isiah and even more. It's utterly ridiculous.

Then you look at how he came into the NBA; going to the final of the NCAA with 4 dudes they got on a pick up truck and he carried them undefeated. Imagine, just imagineeeee, if he had gone to the Lakers instead of the Celtics. For me, you're talking about rivalling Russell's ring collection in that scenario.

:applause: :applause:

[Micku]

I heard this on their podcast. I was shocked Jemele Hill believes that LeBron is a better rebounder than Bird. She would have to check the stats or rewatch some of the tapes.

There are some things that peak Bird did better than LeBron and vice versa.

I do think LeBron James is harder to stop scoring wise despite Bird being more polished and have better skills set. Mostly it's because LBJ is a better finisher (one of the best I've seen) and he is pretty much solid across the board. He became elite at his post game and his catch and shoot ability too, but still not elite at midrange, but he isn't horrible. And I think LBJ is a better at running the offense due to his ability to handle the ball better. LBJ is a better one on one defender too. His skills really improved tho.

LBJ maybe more predictable than Bird, but I think he is more unstoppable.

Bird is a better off the ball player. In his rookie year he was a better off the ball player. He also don't really need the ball to be effective. His passing skills was great, and it's amazing that he got that many assists without holding the ball for very long. Bird has better footwork and more moves in the post, and I think he takes advantage more in the post than LBJ. Bird is very good team defender, and isn't horrible one on one from the reports that I read and games that I watched.

So, I think I would personally go with LeBron. But with a stacked team I would go with peak Bird if they have a primary ball handler or a star that needs the ball to effective. I think a peak Bird would maximize the team ability a little better offensively than LBJ due to Bird not needing the ball to be effective and still being an equal playmaker.

But if the team don't have a primary ball handler or a star that needs the ball, give me LeBron.

tl;dr: I don't think you can go wrong with either if you are talking about peaks/prime. Both are extremely good, and that's an understatement.

[Champ]

I heard this on their podcast. I was shocked Jemele Hill believes that LeBron is a better rebounder than Bird. She would have to check the stats or rewatch some of the tapes.

There are some things that peak Bird did better than LeBron and vice versa.

I do think LeBron James is harder to stop scoring wise despite Bird being more polished and have better skills set. Mostly it's because LBJ is a better finisher (one of the best I've seen) and he is pretty much solid across the board. He became elite at his post game and his catch and shoot ability too, but still not elite at midrange, but he isn't horrible. And I think LBJ is a better at running the offense due to his ability to handle the ball better. LBJ is a better one on one defender too. His skills really improved tho.

LBJ maybe more predictable than Bird, but I think he is more unstoppable.

Bird is a better off the ball player. In his rookie year he was a better off the ball player. He also don't really need the ball to be effective. His passing skills was great, and it's amazing that he got that many assists without holding the ball for very long. Bird has better footwork and more moves in the post, and I think he takes advantage more in the post than LBJ. Bird is very good team defender, and isn't horrible one on one from the reports that I read and games that I watched.

So, I think I would personally go with LeBron. But with a stacked team I would go with peak Bird if they have a primary ball handler or a star that needs the ball to effective. I think a peak Bird would maximize the team ability a little better offensively than LBJ due to Bird not needing the ball to be effective and still being an equal playmaker.

But if the team don't have a primary ball handler or a star that needs the ball, give me LeBron.

tl;dr: I don't think you can go wrong with either if you are talking about peaks/prime. Both are extremely good, and that's an understatement.

Good post. One question is how Bird would be best utilized in today's game, with so much emphasis on court spacing and an over-reliance on the three.

It's interesting to look at how Bird evolved into what became know as the "point forward" position after he was slowed by injury. If anything - he became an even better passer.

You can see this during some of the highlights of one of his last NBA games - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAYS9DYZ15g.

I wonder if this is the direction his game would've taken today?

[bizil]

Read my post above.

It wasn't just scoring and passing "from a stationary position." A lot of Bird's assists came from playmaking. And, the fact that he was lethal from anywhere on the floor in almost any offensive set, the defenses had to open up and this made his passing even more brutal for opponents... They could come from dribble-drives, the high post, the low post, the perimeter. And, he was so damn quick with his decision making and touch passes. Bird would often pass the ball in mid-dribble if he had the defense on its heels.

http://images.rapgenius.com/234d08250d7b780f84b30a602881ba6e.348x200x63.gif

He was also known for being basically automatic in transition.




James is awesome at what he does... don't get me wrong. He's maybe the best I've ever seen at getting the ball on the wing or straight-away and driving to the basket for either a score himself or to set up a teammate. He's also one of the very best transition players I've ever seen.

But, I take pretty much the exact opposite stance to you when it comes to versatility. The reason I'd take Bird's peak, at least right now, is because he could fit seamlessly into any offense, depending on what they needed at that moment, and it didn't always involve having the ball in his hands.

You need an instant floor spacer? He could do it. You need a guy on the block who could score efficiently and set up teammates? He could do that. You need a playmaker? He could do it? You need a 25 point quarter? He was capable of it. Someone to bang downlow and get you 12-15 rebounds on a given night? He could do it. Get out and run the floor to devastate teams? Yep.

LeBron's offensive game, as great as it is, has always been much more predictable. He prefers the dribble drives from wing or the top of the key to set his game up, either as a scorer or playmaker. When he doesn't have the ball in his hands, teams can take him out of the game, especially in the playoffs when things really tighten up and slow down.


On what may have been the greatest single team I've seen in my lifetime, Bird averaged 26 points on 52% from the field, 9+ rebounds and 8+ assists, with a usage rate of 23.3% in the playoffs (1986). That is just mind blowing.

For context, LeBron has a usage rate of 31.3% so far in these playoffs.


I know EXACTLY what u meant as far as Bird's passing. I NEVER said Bird was only a great passer from a stationary position. Was a great passer PERIOD! But he's not on Stockton's, Magic', Isiah, Bron's, or Nash's level in terms of CONSISTENTLY breaking down a defense off the dribble, running a fast break, or ball handling. This notion Bird could run the PG position is INCORRECT! He FOR SURE is a point forward type guy though in the half court. Let's say a smaller PG decided to pressure Bird all the way up the court. Could he handle that like bigger ball handlers such as Magic, Penny, Bron, Pippen, etc. He COULDN'T. Even in the pass u showed with Bird he wasn't slashing into the teeth of the D and making the defense collapse or make a decision. He took a couple of dribbles, took a picture, and dropped off a sick dime.

Once again I NEVER said Bird couldnt dribble a couple of times and make a great pass. But he's not like a TRUE PG in terms of running a fast break with great handles and pace. Nor is he like a Magic (a 6'9 phenom in terms of running a fast break). I'm not saying Bird wasn't capable, but he's NOT on Lebron's level in those aspects. That's why I SAID in terms of the halfcourt or making a quick pass from stationary or a couple of dribbles, Bird is as good of a passer as anybody. But when u includes fastbreaks, point guard level handles, and truly making a defense collapse, he has guys better at that! And THAT can't be debated!!

[bizil]

And let's pump our breaks on this notion that Bird was a great athlete! He was no stiff, but he wasn't a great athlete in terms of running and jumping. Great athletes at SF are guys like Bron, Pippen, Grant Hill, Baylor, Dr. J, Billy Cunningham, James Worthy, etc. Bird wasn't on their level AT ALL in terms of athletic ability.

In terms of Bird's D, I'm aware he made All Defensive team before. But that's when he was playing more PF. At SF, Bird was no All Defensive team kind of guy. Sure he was a great team defender, but put on an island against the Niques, Kings, Dr. Js, English, Gervin, MJs, etc., that wasn't his thing. When i think great defender perimeter wise, I think of one on one defense as A HUGE FACTOR! Especially back then when u couldn't play zone. Putting a defender on a guy where U DON'T have to double team is a great advantage to have.

[Rocketswin2013]

Read my post above.

It wasn't just scoring and passing "from a stationary position." A lot of Bird's assists came from playmaking. And, the fact that he was lethal from anywhere on the floor in almost any offensive set, the defenses had to open up and this made his passing even more brutal for opponents... They could come from dribble-drives, the high post, the low post, the perimeter. And, he was so damn quick with his decision making and touch passes. Bird would often pass the ball in mid-dribble if he had the defense on its heels.

http://images.rapgenius.com/234d08250d7b780f84b30a602881ba6e.348x200x63.gif

He was also known for being basically automatic in transition.




James is awesome at what he does... don't get me wrong. He's maybe the best I've ever seen at getting the ball on the wing or straight-away and driving to the basket for either a score himself or to set up a teammate. He's also one of the very best transition players I've ever seen.

But, I take pretty much the exact opposite stance to you when it comes to versatility. The reason I'd take Bird's peak, at least right now, is because he could fit seamlessly into any offense, depending on what they needed at that moment, and it didn't always involve having the ball in his hands.

You need an instant floor spacer? He could do it. You need a guy on the block who could score efficiently and set up teammates? He could do that. You need a playmaker? He could do it? You need a 25 point quarter? He was capable of it. Someone to bang downlow and get you 12-15 rebounds on a given night? He could do it. Get out and run the floor to devastate teams? Yep.

LeBron's offensive game, as great as it is, has always been much more predictable. He prefers the dribble drives from wing or the top of the key to set his game up, either as a scorer or playmaker. When he doesn't have the ball in his hands, teams can take him out of the game, especially in the playoffs when things really tighten up and slow down.


On what may have been the greatest single team I've seen in my lifetime, Bird averaged 26 points on 52% from the field, 9+ rebounds and 8+ assists, with a usage rate of 23.3% in the playoffs (1986). That is just mind blowing.

For context, LeBron has a usage rate of 31.3% so far in these playoffs.
Meh, Bird's usage isn't that impressive scoring wise. He had a team full of great passers so he could easily play off ball very effectively. The assisting is pretty insane though.

[StephHamann]

Jemelle Hill :facepalm

[feyki]

ShaqGoat :applause: