Do people really believe LeBron losing to the Spurs seriously damages his legacy?

[TheMan]

I've been seeing this in this forum as well as others. Why do some people believe this? I know the EC is crap but going to four straight Finals in on itself is quite the accomplishment. Sure the Spurs big three are long in the tooth and if last year they took Bran to 7 games, imagine the butt raping prime TimmyD, Manu and TParker would've done, it would be a bloodbath, bros. Kinda like 07 again.

I don't think losing to the Spurs should hurt LeBron long term, he's a top 10 GOAT easily, not everyone can be perfect in the Finals :confusedshrug:

All the great ones lost in the Finals, well all except one...

[NumberSix]

Heat in 6.

[Marchesk]

All the great ones lost in the Finals, well all except one...

Havliceck was pretty damn good. Top 20 for sure.

[TheMan]

Heat in 6.
I hope so, for Bran's sake, otherwise the media gon' go ham on him.

[DMAVS41]

Damage? Nah...only if he plays like shit and chokes again.

But a loss prevents him from moving up at all.

2 titles in 4 years...especially given the weak conference and loaded team....just isn't special.

It's what you'd expect at worst.

The over/under of titles in the first 4 years would be 2.5. So in titles they would be under achieving actually.

The fact that they have made 4 finals (even though the East has made it incredibly easy) matters and so it probably bumps it up to a push on expectations.

Too many other teams/players have done the equivalent...without the kind of help and or competition level.

So Lebron stays in the Hakeem/Kobe range on GOAT lists with a loss. So it doesn't damage it just by losing, but it doesn't move him up.

[TheMan]

Havliceck was pretty damn good. Top 20 for sure.
:applause:

[NumberSix]

Damage? Nah...only if he plays like shit and chokes again.

But a loss prevents him from moving up at all.

2 titles in 4 years...especially given the weak conference and loaded team....just isn't special.

It's what you'd expect at worst.

The over/under of titles in the first 4 years would be 2.5. So in titles they would be under achieving actually.

The fact that they have made 4 finals (even though the East has made it incredibly easy) matters and so it probably bumps it up to a push on expectations.

Too many other teams/players have done the equivalent...without the kind of help and or competition level.

So Lebron stays in the Hakeem/Kobe range on GOAT lists with a loss. So it doesn't damage it just by losing, but it doesn't move him up.pipe down.

[uber]

I hope so, for Bran's sake, otherwise the media gon' go ham on him.

He brought it upon himself .. the decision .. not one, not two, not three ... check my stats shirts etc.

[Champ]

I don't think it would hurt him - he's got too much career left and probably good for at least 1 to 2 more trips to the Finals.

[DMAVS41]

pipe down.

just the truth brah.

2 titles in 4 years isn't special given the circumstances. a win here and it's historic and special and amazing.

loss and that 11 finals choke looms large and it's a slightly underperforming in the last 4 years.

sorry if you don't like it.

[BoutPractice]

Well, everyone should at the very least agree that losing in the Finals should be both better for your legacy than losing before the Finals and worse than winning the Finals. This is common sense.

The idea of Jordan being "undefeated" because he won every Finals is played in is objectively a myth.
A Jordan-led team lost in 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1995 (to preserve the purity of the double threepeat, people tend to erase from memory the fact that Jordan was playing in the 1995 playoffs, well enough to score over 30 ppg, but came up short and was even called out for choking...), and while we're at it, 2002 and 2003.
In other words, in 9 out of his 15 years in the league, Jordan's team did not win the championship, getting eliminated before the playoffs, in the first round, the second round, or the conference finals. In no universe is that being "undefeated".

[NumberSix]

just the truth brah.

2 titles in 4 years isn't special given the circumstances. a win here and it's historic and special and amazing.

loss and that 11 finals choke looms large and it's a slightly underperforming in the last 4 years.

sorry if you don't like it.
Take a walk.

[TheMan]

just the truth brah.

2 titles in 4 years isn't special given the circumstances. a win here and it's historic and special and amazing.

loss and that 11 finals choke looms large and it's a slightly underperforming in the last 4 years.

sorry if you don't like it.
Yeah, if the Spurs win, some folks will say Jesus S. saved Bran from an embarrassing 0-3 Finals vs the Spurs...

[navy]

Why do I feel like DMAVS41 made similar comments last year but upped the title count?

[Wally450]

I don't think his legacy get damaged. He lost IN THE FINALS. I don't care how weak the East is, getting there is a challenge nevermind 4 years in a row. That takes a toll on your body.

I do think he'll be criticized for not winning with this team he has, which is easily one of the greatest teams in recent memory.

But this is ISH, where losing in the Finals is worse than losing in the 1st round and damages your legacy.

[TheMan]

Well, everyone should at the very least agree that losing in the Finals should be both better for your legacy than losing before the Finals and worse than winning the Finals. This is common sense.

The idea of Jordan being "undefeated" because he won every Finals is played in is objectively a myth.
A Jordan-led team lost in 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1995 (to preserve the purity of the double threepeat, people tend to erase from memory the fact that Jordan was playing in the 1995 playoffs, well enough to score over 30 ppg, but came up short and was even called out for choking...), and while we're at it, 2002 and 2003.
In other words, in 9 out of his 15 years in the league, Jordan's team did not win the championship, getting eliminated before the playoffs, in the first round, the second round, or the conference finals. In no universe is that being "undefeated".
:no: Thread isn't about the GOAT

[plowking]

The Spurs may have had a few better individuals during 07, but this Spurs team is better than the one of 07. 14 Spurs would beat 07 version in 5 games.

[TheMan]

The Spurs may have had a few better individuals during 07, but this Spurs team is better than the one of 07. 14 Spurs would beat 07 version in 5 games.
This

Everything is better today

14 Bulls beat 93 Bulls in 5

[NumberSix]

Why do I feel like DMAVS41 made similar comments last year but upped the title count?
Funny how he has has taken it upon himself to decide for all of us that the bar of success is 2.5 titles.

[pauk]

1st of all, i dont understand how you "damage legacy" anyways, you can only halt it for a moment if everything doesnt go well, but damage? Its not like the accolades of a player go away??

As far as winning/losing goes in playoffs what people never seem to learn/understand is that the better team will always win in a 7 game series, not the best player amongst those two teams (no matter how good he performs).... its a team game, not 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 5....

In this context all you can want from such a magnitude of player is simply to perform up to his standards, because that is the only thing HE can control.... the rest (supporting cast) is completely out of his hands, ofcourse he can help with getting them better looks offensively but then again its completely out of his hands, how well they shoot, pass, rebound, make decisions, how well they defend their man and so on....

Durant/OKC is the latest example, who just recently got beat by Spurs and he easily performed better than anybody, if it was a 1vs1 against any of those Spurs players he would have won that series....... yes its a bummer a player couldnt go further, but slamming these players for a series loss when they did everything in their power to try and win doesnt make sense to me.....

[NumberSix]

This

Everything is better today

14 Bulls beat 93 Bulls in 5
Technology gets better, not worse. Athletes didn't become conditioned worse since the 90s. The 6 years that Jordan won titles weren't the pinnacle of civilization.

[DMAVS41]

Why do I feel like DMAVS41 made similar comments last year but upped the title count?

I did.

1 title in 3 years would have been terrible though...not average.

Last year assured the first 4 years of the Heat would either be average or great...not bad.

[NumberSix]

I did.

1 title in 3 years would have been terrible though...not average.

Last year assured the first 4 years of the Heat would either be average or great...not bad.
How abysmal is Dirk's 1 title in 16 years? :confusedshrug:

[TheMan]

1st of all, i dont understand how you "damage legacy" anyways, you can only halt it for a moment if everything doesnt go well, but damage? Its not like the accolades of a player go away??

As far as winning/losing goes in playoffs what people never seem to learn/understand is that the better team will always win in a 7 game series, not the best player amongst those two teams (no matter how good he performs).... its a team game, not 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 5....

In this context all you can want from such a magnitude of player is simply to perform up to his standards, because that is the only thing HE can control.... the rest (supporting cast) is completely out of his hands, ofcourse he can help with getting them better looks offensively but then again its completely out of his hands, how well they shoot, pass, rebound, make decisions, how well they defend their man and so on....

Durant/OKC is the latest example, who just recently got beat by Spurs and he easily performed better than anybody, if it was a 1vs1 against any of those Spurs players he would have won that series....... yes its a bummer a player couldnt go further, but slamming these players for a series loss when they did everything in their power to try and win doesnt make sense to me.....
Damage control already, huh Pauk :facepalm

[TheMan]

Technology gets better, not worse. Athletes didn't become conditioned worse since the 90s. The 6 years that Jordan won titles weren't the pinnacle of civilization.
You can't condition a bum into a great:oldlol:

Give me one big guy who has Hakeem level skills today or even David ****ing Robinson. There's talent or there isn't.

[pauk]

Damage control already, huh Pauk :facepalm

What? I was talking about what i was talking about in that post....

As far as Lebron/Miami goes, damage control? They lost game 1 in 12' Finals & 13' Finals, they are fine i think..... i think Miami wins this one in 5-6... they will win Game 2 and then win 2 at home.... i say this because i believe Miami is a better team....

[NumberSix]

You can't condition a bum into a great:oldlol:

Give me one big guy who has Hakeem level skills today or even David ****ing Robinson. There's talent or there isn't.
Chicago.

[nathanjizzle]

lebron and the heat at their peak couldnt beat an over the hill spurs.... i definitely would put alot of blame on lebron.

[uber]

How abysmal is Dirk's 1 title in 16 years? :confusedshrug:

Dirk Fans don't claim that he's the GOAT

[TheMan]

Chicago.
Nice retort from the guy who believes humans evolve significantly in generations:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

How abysmal is Dirk's 1 title in 16 years? :confusedshrug:

Well, it would depend on the circumstances.

Considering Dirk never played with a team 80% as good as Lebron's teams the last 4 years...and never played in a conference for a 4 year stretch close to as bad...

The expectations are different.

Also, I don't see anyone trying to put Dirk in the top 5 of all time.

But you want my honest opinion? Put prime/peak Dirk on a team in the East the last 4 years with the kind of help Lebron has had....and you'd see at minimum 3 finals appearances...and I'd bet 3 titles. At least 2...

Again...just the truth. Wade/Dirk....:bowdown:

[NumberSix]

Nice retort from the guy who believes humans evolve in generations:oldlol:
What about my comment of "technology gets better" lead you to believe this conversation was in any way related to evolution?



#ChicagoSchoolSystem

[NumberSix]

Well, it would depend on the circumstances.

Considering Dirk never played with a team 80% as good as Lebron's teams the last 4 years...and never played in a conference for a 4 year stretch close to as bad...

The expectations are different.

Also, I don't see anyone trying to put Dirk in the top 5 of all time.

But you want my honest opinion? Put prime/peak Dirk on a team in the East the last 4 years with the kind of help Lebron has had....and you'd see at minimum 3 finals appearances...and I'd bet 3 titles. At least 2...

Again...just the truth. Wade/Dirk....:bowdown:
Meh. Played with a team good enough to get a 1 seed in the west. 1st round exit.

[ArbitraryWater]

Damage? Nah...only if he plays like shit and chokes again.

But a loss prevents him from moving up at all.

2 titles in 4 years...especially given the weak conference and loaded team....just isn't special.

It's what you'd expect at worst.

The over/under of titles in the first 4 years would be 2.5. So in titles they would be under achieving actually.

The fact that they have made 4 finals (even though the East has made it incredibly easy) matters and so it probably bumps it up to a push on expectations.

Too many other teams/players have done the equivalent...without the kind of help and or competition level.

So Lebron stays in the Hakeem/Kobe range on GOAT lists with a loss. So it doesn't damage it just by losing, but it doesn't move him up.

Lol at staying in the Hakeem/Kobe Range... you on some bath salts dude

[Marchesk]

Technology gets better, not worse. Athletes didn't become conditioned worse since the 90s. The 6 years that Jordan won titles weren't the pinnacle of civilization.

Humans aren't robots. How many players today train better than MJ did? Name one player who's as good a defender as Pippen was. Name one player who's equal to Rodman in rebounding.

How many guys right now have the conditioning of Karl Malone or Dennis Rodman?

Name a center today who would be a top 5 center in the 90s.

[TheMan]

What about my comment of "technology gets better" lead you to believe this conversation was in any way related to evolution?



#ChicagoSchoolSystem
My point was that all the technology, sports medicine and modern conditioning isn't going to turn Dwight Howard into Kareem.

Talent > all that modern BS

[DMAVS41]

Meh. Played with a team good enough to get a 1 seed in the west. 1st round exit.

Meh....Lebron played with a team good enough to make the finals. Sweep.

Meh...Lebron played with a team good enough to get the 1 seed in the conference in 09...nothing to show for it.

Meh...Lebron played with a team good enough to get the 1 seed in the conference in 10...nothing to show for it.


Meh...Lebron made the finals with by far the most stacked team in the league in 11. And he lost do Dirk...ROFL


There are black marks on every career....but please don't compare the Heat from 11 to present and act like that is what Dirk has been working with for his career.

Also, you act like I'm saying Dirk is better. I'm not. I think Lebron is better. I'm just pointing out the obvious fact. That winning 2 titles in 4 years is just doing average given the circumstances. And while it won't hurt Lebron's legacy....it's not enough to vault him as high as most of you fans want him to be.

[DMAVS41]

Lol at staying in the Hakeem/Kobe Range... you on some bath salts dude

So you want him to be higher of he loses again in the finals?????

Why? What would Lebron have really done to date to for sure be ranked higher than Kobe/Hakeem?

[NumberSix]

Humans aren't robots. How many players today train better than MJ did? Name one player who's as good a defender as Pippen was. Name one player who's equal to Rodman in rebounding.

How many guys right now have the conditioning of Karl Malone or Dennis Rodman?

Name a center today who would be a top 5 center in the 90s.
Athletes are better these days. It's a simple fact.

Let's put it like this. Jordan was still in his prime in 1992. LeBron was in his prime in 2012......

The athletes of LeBron's era are simply better. It's a fact.

The guy who was 5th place in the 100m at the 2012 Olympics had a faster time than the guy who won gold in 1992.

Current athletes > 90's athletes. Accept reality.

[ILLsmak]

Well, everyone should at the very least agree that losing in the Finals should be both better for your legacy than losing before the Finals and worse than winning the Finals. This is common sense.

The idea of Jordan being "undefeated" because he won every Finals is played in is objectively a myth.
A Jordan-led team lost in 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1995 (to preserve the purity of the double threepeat, people tend to erase from memory the fact that Jordan was playing in the 1995 playoffs, well enough to score over 30 ppg, but came up short and was even called out for choking...), and while we're at it, 2002 and 2003.
In other words, in 9 out of his 15 years in the league, Jordan's team did not win the championship, getting eliminated before the playoffs, in the first round, the second round, or the conference finals. In no universe is that being "undefeated".

Mj had two threepeats regardless of whether he lost in 95. Otherwise you should know dudes would be talking about seven straight titles for mj. That's why the idea of the double threepeat is even brought up.

Edit: but losing in the finals a lot is a huge stain on a player because we want to believe our superstars are superhuman. And whenever we bring in reality like he's just a man then we've kind of taken him off of the mount Rushmore per se.

-Smak

[ArbitraryWater]

Meh....Lebron played with a team good enough to make the finals. Sweep.

Meh...Lebron played with a team good enough to get the 1 seed in the conference in 09...nothing to show for it.

Meh...Lebron played with a team good enough to get the 1 seed in the conference in 10...nothing to show for it.


Meh...Lebron made the finals with by far the most stacked team in the league in 11. And he lost do Dirk...ROFL


There are black marks on every career....but please don't compare the Heat from 11 to present and act like that is what Dirk has been working with for his career.

Also, you act like I'm saying Dirk is better. I'm not. I think Lebron is better. I'm just pointing out the obvious fact. That winning 2 titles in 4 years is just doing average given the circumstances. And while it won't hurt Lebron's legacy....it's not enough to vault him as high as most of you fans want him to be.

Do you even realize that you're holding LeBron overachieving with a mediocre cast AGAINST HIM instead of praising him for it?

Want me to pop out kblaze's comment about that cavs team? Because look at the drop off the next year... wow, so "good enough of a team" what a broad term :biggums: :hammerhead:

2007 2nd option: Larry Hughes - 35% fg throughout the playoffs... wow so "good enough of a team" :banghead:

Let's hold it against him though that he still made the finals with that... retarded.

[Roundball_Rock]

Nice retort from the guy who believes humans evolve significantly in generations:oldlol:

Athletically there is consistent generational progress. People get stronger, bigger, faster over time. As an example, look at Olympic speed records. Only in basketball is it assumed the world began in 1985 and froze in 1998.

[DMAVS41]

Do you even realize that you're holding LeBron overachieving with a mediocre cast AGAINST HIM instead of praising him for it?

Want me to pop out kblaze's comment about that cavs team? Because look at the drop off the next year... wow, so "good enough of a team" what a broad term :biggums: :hammerhead:

2007 2nd option: Larry Hughes - 35% fg throughout the playoffs... wow so "good enough of a team" :banghead:

Let's hold it against him though that he still made the finals with that... retarded.



Dude. It was in response to NumberSix doing the exact same thing to Dirk.

If you are going got jump into a conversation like you did...at least take the time to read the context of the comments.

I agree with you though, but you can't hold Dirk overachieving with that team in 07 against him...and then turn around and want context.

I simply responded the exact same way to prove a point.

[ArbitraryWater]

So you want him to be higher of he loses again in the finals?????

Why? What would Lebron have really done to date to for sure be ranked higher than Kobe/Hakeem?

He just had another 27/7/6 season with shaq like efficiency that earned him a 4th straight trip to the fuggin nba finals :wtf:

During these playoffs hes had ANOTHER spectacular run... you know there were only 2 games in which he didnt reach 20+ points on 50% shooting? how ridiculously high are his standarts? This is all through 16 games so far! 14 games of 20+ points on 50+%...

Why would you rank Hakeem or Kobe ahead of LeBron?

[NumberSix]

Dude. It was in response to NumberSix doing the exact same thing to Dirk.

If you are going got jump into a conversation like you did...at least take the time to read the context of the comments.

I agree with you though, but you can't hold Dirk overachieving with that team in 07 against him...and then turn around and want context.

I simply responded the exact same way to prove a point.
Lol. Dallas losing to GSW was not a case of overachieving. Stop it. :roll:

[NumberSix]

He just had another 27/7/6 season with shaq like efficiency that earned him a 4th straight trip to the fuggin nba finals :wtf:

During these playoffs hes had ANOTHER spectacular run... you know there were only 2 games in which he didnt reach 20+ points on 50% shooting? how ridiculously high are his standarts? This is all through 16 games so far! 14 games of 20+ points on 50+%...

Why would you rank Hakeem or Kobe ahead of LeBron?
Hakeem, I could see a possible case for. Kobe? Are you kidding? Sounds like trolling.

[DMAVS41]

He just had another 27/7/6 season with shaq like efficiency that earned him a 4th straight trip to the fuggin nba finals :wtf:

During these playoffs hes had ANOTHER spectacular run... you know there were only 2 games in which he didnt reach 20+ points on 50% shooting? how ridiculously high are his standarts? This is all through 16 games so far! 14 games of 20+ points on 50+%...

Why would you rank Hakeem or Kobe ahead of LeBron?

Because they've done stuff like that before....

It's why I have moved Lebron up to officially in the conversation with hakeem/Kobe after another fantastic season.

But without the title this year...he stays in that range....and not above it.

It's too much. You can't ignore the negatives as well. Horrible performance in 07 finals, 2010 game 5, 2011 biggest superstar choke ever...and then another loss in the finals this year?

That isn't enough to vault him over Kobe/Hakeem. On that tier? Absolutely.

But you are simply under-rating what Hakeem and Kobe have done in this league.

And you are also ignoring how much of a joke the East is. You really think the 11 Lakers aren't making the finals if they had to face the kind of competition the Heat did this year in the East? Please....we can't ignore that shit man.

[ArbitraryWater]

Hakeem, I could see a possible case for. Kobe? Are you kidding? Sounds like trolling.

Agreed... Hakeem, AT THE MOMENT, okay... Surely he will be passed just as long as LeBron plays at an elite level for couple more years and lets his career play out... even at 2 titles. But Kobe? Lol..

DMAVS: This current LeBron playoff run, besides Kobe 2008, he doesnt even have a better one.. This isnt something special for LeBron, it would be for Kobe. You know how many people would freak out given the efficiency?

And now a singular game of 2010 game 5? Wut? Really? You know how many pivotal games I could pick out for Kobe where he played bad? It's way beyond LeBron's ammount.. if you cant even pick out more than 5 series', and are going on to singular games now, you're reaching.

[DMAVS41]

Lol. Dallas losing to GSW was not a case of overachieving. Stop it. :roll:

He was talking about the regular season.

His argument was basically that the only reason the Cavs got the 1 seed was because they overachieved and they weren't really that good.

Which I happen to agree with...but the exact same thing should be said for the 07 Mavs.

But, regardless, the 07 Mavs/Dirk are not the barometer of the team or player as a whole.

Again, that would be like holding the 07 finals Cavs/Lebron as the barometer of who Lebron is as a player.

Makes no sense....and you're better than that.

[DMAVS41]

Agreed... Hakeem, AT THE MOMENT, okay... Surely he will be passed just as long as LeBron plays at an elite level for couple more years and lets his career play out... even at 2 titles. But Kobe? Lol..

DMAVS: This current LeBron playoff run, besides Kobe 2008, he doesnt even have a better one.. This isnt something special for LeBron, it would be for Kobe. You know how many people would freak out given the efficiency?


LOL...so all of that...and you concede that you rank Hakeem over Lebron currently?

Okay....why did you argue so much then as I clearly said currently.

As for Kobe...nah...I really think you under-rate him. And I don't even like Kobe much, hate his fans, and think he's wildly over-rated even with knowledgable fans.

But you can't give Lebron the nod over him in the all time rankings if Lebron loses this series....not at his moment.

[NumberSix]

Because they've done stuff like that before....

It's why I have moved Lebron up to officially in the conversation with hakeem/Kobe after another fantastic season.

But without the title this year...he stays in that range....and not above it.

It's too much. You can't ignore the negatives as well. Horrible performance in 07 finals, 2010 game 5, 2011 biggest superstar choke ever...and then another loss in the finals this year?

That isn't enough to vault him over Kobe/Hakeem. On that tier? Absolutely.

But you are simply under-rating what Hakeem and Kobe have done in this league.

And you are also ignoring how much of a joke the East is. You really think the 11 Lakers aren't making the finals if they had to face the kind of competition the Heat did this year in the East? Please....we can't ignore that shit man.
Why exactly are you not holding Hakeem's hilarious amount of 1st round eliminations against him?

[DMAVS41]

Why exactly are you not holding Hakeem's hilarious amount of 1st round eliminations against him?

I do...that is why I have him 9th all time and have Lebron on his tier already even going into only his 11th season...

What??????

This is about surpassing Hakeem/Kobe....

Lebron is already on that level.

[Roundball_Rock]

It's too much. You can't ignore the negatives as well. Horrible performance in 07 finals, 2010 game 5, 2011 biggest superstar choke ever...and then another loss in the finals this year?

That isn't enough to vault him over Kobe/Hakeem. On that tier? Absolutely.

So LeBron should be docked for making the Finals and losing yet Hakeem, who made "only" 3 Finals and actually "only" 4 WCF's, gets a pass for missing the playoffs or losing in the first round 9 times? :lol Hakeem from 1993-1995 was not the Hakeem that existed for his entire career.

[NumberSix]

I do...that is why I have him 9th all time and have Lebron on his tier already even going into only his 11th season...

What??????

This is about surpassing Hakeem/Kobe....

Lebron is already on that level.
If you believe that Hakeem is a better player than LeBron, that's 1 thing, but as far as these little legacy matchups, Hakeem simply doesn't stack up against 4 MVPs and 2 rings. He's not comparable.

[DMAVS41]

So LeBron should be docked for making the Finals and losing yet Hakeem, who made "only" 3 Finals and actually "only" 4 WCF's, gets a pass for missing the playoffs or losing in the first round 9 times? :lol Hakeem from 1993-1995 was not the Hakeem that existed for his entire career.

Docked? No.

Please listen. This year has improved Lebron's legacy.

But enough to warrant ranking him "over" Hakeem and not on his level? No...I don't see how he would have done enough through 11 years to get that nod without the title this year.

Sorry...

[DMAVS41]

If you believe that Hakeem is a better player than LeBron, that's 1 thing, but as far as these little legacy matchups, Hakeem simply doesn't stack up against 4 MVPs and 2 rings. He's not comparable.

How I do my rankings might be different than yours.

It's a combination of everything for me....which includes who I think is the better player...better prime/peak/longevity. Success given the circumstances. Consistency. Stats. Play in key/big moments....etc.

Lebron falls into that Kobe/Hakeem range for me right now.

With a win in the finals...he jumps that group for me.

This isn't hard.

[AlphaWolf24]

I do...that is why I have him 9th all time and have Lebron on his tier already even going into only his 11th season...

What??????

This is about surpassing Hakeem/Kobe....

Lebron is already on that level.


http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Mayweather-Merchant.jpg

[NumberSix]

How I do my rankings might be different than yours.

It's a combination of everything for me....which includes who I think is the better player...better prime/peak/longevity. Success given the circumstances. Consistency. Stats. Play in key/big moments....etc.

Lebron falls into that Kobe/Hakeem range for me right now.

With a win in the finals...he jumps that group for me.

This isn't hard.
What in the world puts Kobe on the same level as LeBron? LeBron doesn't have half the black marks that Kobe does.

[DMAVS41]

What in the world puts Kobe on the same level as LeBron? LeBron doesn't have half the black marks that Kobe does.

Well, for starters, Kobe did enough to help his teams win 5 rings.

He's been balling in the league as a legit player since 99....

What if Lebron suffers a career ending injury tomorrow? Seems to me you guys are projecting and assuming Lebron plays another great 10 years or something.

I don't do that. I rank them up to the present and assume they never play again. I think that is the most accurate way to gauge current players.

And if Lebron doesn't win this finals...I just can't put him over Kobe. Even with him? Sure...already did that last year.

But over him? I just can't given Kobe's career to date.

[NumberSix]

Well, for starters, Kobe did enough to help his teams win 5 rings.

He's been balling in the league as a legit player since 99....

What if Lebron suffers a career ending injury tomorrow? Seems to me you guys are projecting and assuming Lebron plays another great 10 years or something.

I don't do that. I rank them up to the present and assume they never play again. I think that is the most accurate way to gauge current players.

And if Lebron doesn't win this finals...I just can't put him over Kobe. Even with him? Sure...already did that last year.

But over him? I just can't given Kobe's career to date.
Do you put LeBron over Wade? I mean, Wade DOES have more championships. That seems to be the only reason why you're putting Kobe up there.

[AlphaWolf24]

yeah.....I think Lebron has just past Isiah Thomas....alltime.

In fact LBJ has always reminded me of a 6'9" version of zeke....

Both great playmakers and above average scorers.

Zeke went to 3 straight Finals.....Lebron 4...but the eye test.....LBJ>Isiah Thomas...although it's close.

:confusedshrug:

[Kingwillball]

It will hurt a little and definitely end any goat talk if that happened..with a series win against what people view as a great team and franchise it would really give legacy a boost getting 3 peat and he would Jump bird as greatest SF ever..

[NumberSix]

bla bla bla
Btw, didn't you once go on a long diatribe about how it's ok to lose in the finals if Vegas has the other team favoured to win the series?

[ArbitraryWater]

LOL...so all of that...and you concede that you rank Hakeem over Lebron currently?

Okay....why did you argue so much then as I clearly said currently.

As for Kobe...nah...I really think you under-rate him. And I don't even like Kobe much, hate his fans, and think he's wildly over-rated even with knowledgable fans.

But you can't give Lebron the nod over him in the all time rankings if Lebron loses this series....not at his moment.

No, I said I could see if YOU would rank Hakeem over LBJ currently... I clearly dont have him over LeBron.

[aj1987]

yeah.....I think Lebron has just past Isiah Thomas....alltime.

In fact LBJ has always reminded me of a 6'9" version of zeke....

Both great playmakers and above average scorers.

Zeke went to 3 straight Finals.....Lebron 4...but the eye test.....LBJ>Isiah Thomas...although it's close.

:confusedshrug:
The ****'s wrong with you, kid? LeBron averages almost 28 PPG over his 11 year career on 50% and he's just an above average scorer? :facepalm

He's an elite scorer.

[AlphaWolf24]

Well, for starters, Kobe did enough to help his teams win 5 rings.

He's been balling in the league as a legit player since 99....

What if Lebron suffers a career ending injury tomorrow? Seems to me you guys are projecting and assuming Lebron plays another great 10 years or something.

I don't do that. I rank them up to the present and assume they never play again. I think that is the most accurate way to gauge current players.

And if Lebron doesn't win this finals...I just can't put him over Kobe. Even with him? Sure...already did that last year.

But over him? I just can't given Kobe's career to date.

damn...we livin rent free in yo ( and yo 3 siblings) head..

Top 5 alltime player career to date.

:banana: :banana: :banana:


and you know thissss.

[ArbitraryWater]

Well, for starters, Kobe did enough to help his teams win 5 rings.

He's been balling in the league as a legit player since 99....

What if Lebron suffers a career ending injury tomorrow? Seems to me you guys are projecting and assuming Lebron plays another great 10 years or something.

I don't do that. I rank them up to the present and assume they never play again. I think that is the most accurate way to gauge current players.

And if Lebron doesn't win this finals...I just can't put him over Kobe. Even with him? Sure...already did that last year.

But over him? I just can't given Kobe's career to date.

Lol at the terms you are loosing... "been ballin" huh? Kobe was your average all star in 2000.. great years in 2001, 2003, 2006-2010.. 7 total.
He had disastastrous seasons in 2004 and 2005.. looked like shit in 2012, and coasted in 2011 with again, nothing special.
LeBron already since 2005 has more great seasons than Kobe throughout his career... Basically from 2005-2014, 10 years.. not close.

[DMAVS41]

Btw, didn't you once go on a long diatribe about how it's ok to lose in the finals if Vegas has the other team favoured to win the series?

Okay?

You act like I'm going to hammer Lebron and says he garbage if he loses.

This is about Lebron passing some of the 8 or so best players of all time.

You have to do a lot of shit in order for that to happen.

Huge difference.

[AlphaWolf24]

The ****'s wrong with you, kid? LeBron averages almost 28 PPG over his 11 year career on 50% and he's just an above average scorer? :facepalm

He's an elite scorer.


On paper...yes absolutely.


I'm speaking in context of a basketball connoisseur like myself. Understanding the aspects of footwork/position....

Was Wilt a Elite scorer?......meh...he was simply bigger then everyone.

Was Shaq an Elite scorer?...He was 3' from the hoop.

Is Lebron a elite scorer? ( He has become a much better midrange player/post player in the last 3 years, I give him credit)....but he relys too much on his size and never truly developed hi sskillset.

Is he an elite scorer like the Kobe's, MJ's , Tmacs and Birds?....no....not even close.

those guy's are beautiful artists.....Lebron is a ugly Bulldozer.







EDIT: and believe me....artistry and aesthetics matter alot!!!!!!!!....literally No one has Wilt Chamberlain over MJ .....literally no one says Wilt was a better offensive player then MJ ( despite Wilt scoring 50ppg and owning nearly every scoring record)

why? because MJ was an artist!

[DMAVS41]

Lol at the terms you are loosing... "been ballin" huh? Kobe was your average all star in 2000.. great years in 2001, 2003, 2006-2010.. 7 total.
He had disastastrous seasons in 2004 and 2005.. looked like shit in 2012, and coasted in 2011 with again, nothing special.
LeBron already since 2005 has more great seasons than Kobe throughout his career... Basically from 2005-2014, 10 years.. not close.


Again, I don't even like Kobe...and that recreation of his career is horrible and narrow.

The point with Kobe is that he's been in the league a lot longer and has been "balling" since before 2000. That matters in my rankings.

It simply is hard to vault Lebron for sure over Kobe if he loses here. 2 titles in 5 trips to the finals. The biggest meltdown in finals history from a star. Weird shit in huge moments throughout his career.

I'm going to need to see more.

If you asked him who I think will ultimately finish higher in my rankings 10 years from now? I would bet my life on Lebron...but that isn't how this works.

[ArbitraryWater]

Okay?

You got Duncan 3rd all time right?

You know
LeBron's 11th season 2014 >>> Duncan's 11th? (2008)
LeBron's 10th season 2013 >>> Duncan's 10 (2007)
LeBron's 9th season 2012 >>> Duncan's 9th (2006)
Duncan's 8th 2005 >> LeBron's 8th (2011)
LeBron's 7th 2010 > Duncan's 7th (2004)
LeBron 2009 vs Duncan 2003 - Wash


LeBron's at his peak right now, he will pretty much end every head to head season superior to Duncan's until the end of his career.. Duncan wont have an argument.

[aj1987]

On paper...yes absolutely.


I'm speaking in context of a basketball connoisseur like myself. Understanding the aspects of footwork/position....

Was Wilt a Elite scorer?......meh...he was simply bigger then everyone.

Was Shaq an Elite scorer?...He was 3' from the hoop.

Is Lebron a elite scorer? ( He has become a much better midrange player/post player in the last 3 years, I give him credit)....but he relys too much on his size and never truly developed hi sskillset.

Is he an elite scorer like the Kobe's, MJ's , Tmacs and Birds?....no....not even close.

those guy's are beautiful artists.....Lebron is a ugly Bulldozer.







EDIT: and believe me....artistry and aesthetics matter alot!!!!!!!!....literally No one has Wilt Chamberlain over MJ .....literally no one says Wilt was a better offensive player then MJ ( despite Wilt scoring 50ppg and owning nearly every scoring record)

why? because MJ was an artist!


So, according to you a good scorer is someone who makes pretty shots, and results don't matter? :cheers:

[AlphaWolf24]

So, according to you a good scorer is someone who makes pretty shots, and results don't matter? :cheers:


I said LBJ is an " above average" scorer......

which in the NBA , means he is a really really really good scorer.











just not elite.

( NB4 he drops 60 next game)

[BoutPractice]

When I talked about Jordan losing "9 out of 15 years", it was to show the absurdity of using this criterion in the first place. Only for Bill Russell (11 titles in 13 years) does this "measure" look flattering, for about any other player it will make their careers look like a failure... which is exactly the problem.

[stalkerforlife]

Damage control.

I knew this would happen.

All the meaningless stats in the world won't change the fact that he disappears when the lights are the brightest.

[Rocketswin2013]

We've been doing this every year. LeBron has never won a game 1 on the road and he hasn't lost a series in a long, long time. LeBron is winning his third FMVP this year...Inevitable. But I guess this hypothetical talk is just fun for you guys.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Well losing wouldn't be a legacy booster..

Bron, as mentioned earlier, is currently in the Duncan/Hakeem/Kobe tier..

[AlphaWolf24]

Isiah Thomas/ clyde drexler tier...even has Isiah coming to his defense.

3rd tier recognizes 3rd tier.....prolly going to have steak dinner together.

proves my point...


next

[aj1987]

I said LBJ is an " above average" scorer......

which in the NBA , means he is a really really really good scorer.

just not elite.

Yeah, cool. I'll take results over fadeaways over 3 defenders. 28 PPG on 50% over 25 PPG on 45%.

[Kiddlovesnets]

I dont think so, this Spurs team is historically great, Id only take 95-96 Bulls, 85-86 Celtics and 86-87 Lakers over them. Beating this amazing team will significantly improve Lebron's legacy, but if he loses as he is supposed to it wont hurt much.

[AlphaWolf24]

Yeah, cool. I'll take results over fadeaways over 3 defenders. 28 PPG on 50% over 25 PPG on 45%.



mmmmmm...

I would take fadeaway's over 3 defenders vs FG% and quitting on a 65 win team to join 2 other superstars all in their prime to make the most stacked team in NBA History.

especially when fading over 3 defenders equals better winning % and a much better aesthetically pleasing career....

oh yeah...fading over 3 defenders also lead to 28PPG at 45% over a decade

and 45% - 50% is only the diffrence of 1 shot.....so meh:confusedshrug:

[stalkerforlife]

Yeah, cool. I'll take results over fadeaways over 3 defenders. 28 PPG on 50% over 25 PPG on 45%.

PADDED stats. PROTECTED PERCENTAGES. Kobe didn't play heavy minutes right out of the gate.

CONTEXT.

[aj1987]

I would take fadeaway's over 3 defenders vs FG% and quitting on a 65 win team to join 2 other superstars all in their prime to make the most stacked team in NBA History.
Are we going to pretend that Kobe didn't play with a top 7 GOAT in his PEAK and also the most stacked front court? Not to mention the GOAT coach.


especially when fading over 3 defenders equals better winning % and a much better aesthetically pleasing career....
You mean 2 60+ win teams with shitty teammates? 4 straight Finals and a back-to-back? 27 game win streak? Another 60+ win season with another team. 4 MVP's, 2 Rings, and 2 FMVP's. 5 Finals in 8 years.

Did I mention that LeBron accomplished all of this by age 29?


oh yeah...fading over 3 defenders also lead to 28PPG at 45% over a decade

and 45% - 50% is only the diffrence of 1 shot.....so meh:confusedshrug:
Don't forget the 2 fewer FGA's. LeBron took 17.6 shots to score 27.1 this season. The fewest shots Kobe took? 20.1. Oh, and 10 FTA's as well.


PADDED stats. PROTECTED PERCENTAGES. Kobe didn't play heavy minutes right out of the gate.

CONTEXT.
So, Kobe sucked ass during his first 2 years. Whose problem is that?

Kobe as a starter - 27 on 46%
LeBron -his rookie year - 28 on 50%

[nathanjizzle]

dirk aint shit.

[B-hoop]

LeCramp stans salty as hell :lol

[TheMan]

Athletes are better these days. It's a simple fact.

Let's put it like this. Jordan was still in his prime in 1992. LeBron was in his prime in 2012......

The athletes of LeBron's era are simply better. It's a fact.

The guy who was 5th place in the 100m at the 2012 Olympics had a faster time than the guy who won gold in 1992.

Current athletes > 90's athletes. Accept reality.
Basketball isn't just about athleticism, if that were the case, there wouldn't be room for the Kevin Loves, Chris Pauls, Paul Pierces and Dirk Nowitzki of the world:facepalm Basketball =/= track and field. Just like in the NFL, you can't put in an Olympic Gold winner in the 100 meter dash as a WR. The difference between 90s basketball and today's is minimal. If athleticism were the end all, DeAndre Jordan would be an elite baller.

Answer this simple question, why has Shawn Marion and Ron Artest both said Wizards MJ was their toughest defensive assignment, and these guys have defended against today's players and they consider old past his prime MJ their toughest cover?

[AlphaWolf24]

Are we going to pretend that Kobe didn't play with a top 7 GOAT in his PEAK and also the most stacked front court? Not to mention the GOAT coach.


Straw man...Kobe was on the Lakers before Shaq...Kobe was just entering the NBA as a teenager.....

Lakers 3rd option was old man Rice and derek Fisher.


Lebron teamed up with what an NBA champion, Finals MVP and a top 5 SG of all time. All in thier Primes....after all had established themselves as superstars...

are you saying nobody would have bashed MJ for teaming up with Isiah, Dumars and co after the Bull's lost for 7 seasons?


You mean 2 60+ win teams with shitty teammates? 4 straight Finals and a back-to-back? 27 game win streak? Another 60+ win season with another team. 4 MVP's, 2 Rings, and 2 FMVP's. 5 Finals in 8 years.

Did I mention that LeBron accomplished all of this by age 29?


Did Lebron need to take his talents to south beach to be great? To win? ...heck no! they were a 65 win team on the cusp of winning it all . I say he is/was good enough. Mo Williams wasn't his only teamate. And the biggest obstacle they faced was the Celtics Big 3 much like everyone else.

If you look back at the Bad Boys era. Isiah Thomas had a team of players there were all made up of of blue collard workers. When they lost to the All-star Celtics and they needed to get through it kept them up at night. They were not thinking about them going somewhere else they were thinking about how to get past the obstacles in their way.



Don't forget the 2 fewer FGA's. LeBron took 17.6 shots to score 27.1 this season. The fewest shots Kobe took? 20.1. Oh, and 10 FTA's as well.


So, Kobe sucked ass during his first 2 years. Whose problem is that?

Kobe as a starter - 27 on 46%
LeBron -his rookie year - 28 on 50%

he took the easy way out and started (or encouraged) a trend that I absolutely loathe. I find it a rather cheap trend.
If you can not beat them, join them (or form a superteam with your buddies).

You have three guys that could have made teams relevant just by themselves (bosh is just as good as Aldridge, check the stats before he left Toronto), and by them teaming up it severely crippled the competition level in the east.

Plus the Big three arn't overcoming any odds by winning championships together. They are doing exactly what is expected of a superteam by winning lots of games and going far in the playoffs. Before they even played one game the general consensus was that they were going to win mutiple rings because of how stacked their team is, and how weak the east is. Why should Lebron be patted on the back for doing what was expected of them? Lebron himself said he was going to win "not 1, not 2, not 3... not 6" etc. If old declining pierce/garnett/allen won a championship as soon as they formed a team, why should the Heat be applauded for winning rings when they brought in 3 superstars in their prime?







- No one respects what the Heat are doing.....did we respect Ivan Drago when he roided up and beat Apollo???..;..when the faqqit prince stabbed Maximus in the rib before the fight...

LeBron and his super friends are not the heroes in the story. They took the easy route, stacked their team, and are expected to win. They are Ivan drago, ,or the gay prince.. That's why, when everything is factored in, it's tough to support or even respect the Heat: they are the villains.

[aj1987]

Straw man...Kobe was on the Lakers before Shaq...Kobe was just entering the NBA as a teenager.....

Lakers 3rd option was old man Rice and derek Fisher.


Lebron teamed up with what an NBA champion, Finals MVP and a top 5 SG of all time. All in thier Primes....after all had established themselves as superstars...

are you saying nobody would have bashed MJ for teaming up with Isiah, Dumars and co after the Bull's lost for 7 seasons?
Bosh was never a "superstar". Kobe being on the Lakers before Shaq doesn't change the FACT that he had a top 7 GOAT during his PEAK from day 1, while LeBron had to play with, Hughes, Mo, West, and others for 7 years.

Thank god of Pippen, right? If he didn't develop into the player that we know, who know how MJ would've reacted. Not winning year after year, while you're the only player on your team who's performing?


Did Lebron need to take his talents to south beach to be great? To win? ...heck no! they were a 65 win team on the cusp of winning it all . I say he is/was good enough. Mo Williams wasn't his only teamate. And the biggest obstacle they faced was the Celtics Big 3 much like everyone else.

If you look back at the Bad Boys era. Isiah Thomas had a team of players there were all made up of of blue collard workers. When they lost to the All-star Celtics and they needed to get through it kept them up at night. They were not thinking about them going somewhere else they were thinking about how to get past the obstacles in their way.
What are you even talking about? Cav's weren't on the "cusp" of winning it all. They were never even close. Also, are you seriously comparing LeBron's help on the Cav's to the Isiah Pistons? That team had several All-Stars and HOF players.


he took the easy way out and started (or encouraged) a trend that I absolutely loathe. I find it a rather cheap trend.
If you can not beat them, join them (or form a superteam with your buddies).
So, how did you feel when your idol threatened to leave the Lakers because he didn't have a good team? And that was for what 2 years? LeBron had to endure shitty teams for 7 years. How did you like Mike Brown on the Lakers? I remember literally EVERY Laker fan screaming for his head. This was the coach that LeBron had to play with.


- No one respects what the Heat are doing.....did we respect Ivan Drago when he roided up and beat Apollo???..;..when the faqqit prince stabbed Maximus in the rib before the fight...
Only idiotic hater like you. Even most Cav's fans are over it and respect LeBron's game now. You're just bitter that LeBron at 29 is higher on the GOAT list than Chuckbe.


LeBron and his super friends are not the heroes in the story. They took the easy route, stacked their team, and are expected to win. They are Ivan drago, ,or the gay prince.. That's why, when everything is factored in, it's tough to support or even respect the Heat: they are the villains.[/B]
As did the Lakers in '04. Chuckbe made sure that Shaq wasn't gonna win another ring though. How about when he cried and whined in ;07 about not having enough help and asking for a trade? '13 season?

:oldlol:

Kobetards are literally THE worst fan base in sports. I can't even imagine what Kobe and Kobetards would've done, if he was stuck on the Cav's teams for 7 years.

[97 bulls]

Isiah Thomas/ clyde drexler tier...even has Isiah coming to his defense.

3rd tier recognizes 3rd tier.....prolly going to have steak dinner together.

proves my point...


next
Lol.

[r15mohd]

- No one respects what the Heat are doing.....did we respect Ivan Drago when he roided up and beat Apollo???..;..when the faqqit prince stabbed Maximus in the rib before the fight...

LeBron and his super friends are not the heroes in the story. They took the easy route, stacked their team, and are expected to win. They are Ivan drago, ,or the gay prince.. That's why, when everything is factored in, it's tough to support or even respect the Heat: they are the villains.


someone is still in 2012..."villains" isn't even a relative term for this team or Lebron anymore, they're one of the most watched teams on TV, sell out home and away games, has top sales in NBA products due to members of the team as well as top endorsing deals, etc.

hate all you want, winning cures all...and the Heat/Lebron, no matter how much you despise what he, as a FREE AGENT, did. your "villain" remarks represent your OWN personal hate...and unsure how a team that doesnt impact your life in any way, can stir up so much anger within. you need help :confusedshrug:

[AlphaWolf24]

Bosh was never a "superstar". Kobe being on the Lakers before Shaq doesn't change the FACT that he had a top 7 GOAT during his PEAK from day 1, while LeBron had to play with, Hughes, Mo, West, and others for 7 years.

Bosh was an Allstar putting up 24 and 11 before he joined Miami....he was a super star.

Shaq in was putting up 26 and 12 when Kobe arrived :confusedshrug:

Thank god of Pippen, right? If he didn't develop into the player that we know, who know how MJ would've reacted. Not winning year after year, while you're the only player on your team who's performing?

MJ just would have shot more and told his teammates to " get the F outta my way"....he sure wouldn't have left to join Bird and Mchale.


What are you even talking about? Cav's weren't on the "cusp" of winning it all. They were never even close. Also, are you seriously comparing LeBron's help on the Cav's to the Isiah Pistons? That team had several All-Stars and HOF players.


Cav's were in the Finals in 07'....won back to back 60 win seasons with the best record in the NBA and HCA....they lost to Boston's big 3:confusedshrug:

as did everyone else.....even when Lebron left to the stacked HEAT...his team still lost:confusedshrug: just like his Cavs team did.

lebron improved his Mid range game/post game in 12'....That's the reason Mi9ami won....he could have done that in Cleveland.

So, how did you feel when your idol threatened to leave the Lakers because he didn't have a good team? And that was for what 2 years? LeBron had to endure shitty teams for 7 years. How did you like Mike Brown on the Lakers? I remember literally EVERY Laker fan screaming for his head. This was the coach that LeBron had to play with.

small threats to make the front office focus a little.....:confusedshrug:

is much better then not saying anything until the last minute and backstabbing an entire fanbase/yo hometown team on ESPN.


Only idiotic hater like you. Even most Cav's fans are over it and respect LeBron's game now. You're just bitter that LeBron at 29 is higher on the GOAT list than Chuckbe.


no I just like seeing that old school mentality...similar players battling it out....Lebron and Wade have to much similarity in their games to join up....

It would have been much better to watch them battle it out in the Eastern Conference.

hating on the other players was the fun part of sports. Fans hated other teams players. Players hated each other, it was great.

Why do you want people ( fans, players) to like Lebron and continue to push the " he had Mo Williams agenda?" ...

Fact is the Cavs were a great team for whole seasons!!!...Lebron just needed to add a few weapons to his arsenal....NOt leave his own team to joins other stars!

As did the Lakers in '04. Chuckbe made sure that Shaq wasn't gonna win another ring though. How about when he cried and whined in ;07 about not having enough help and asking for a trade? '13 season?

:oldlol:

Kobetards are literally THE worst fan base in sports. I can't even imagine what Kobe and Kobetards would've done, if he was stuck on the Cav's teams for 7 years.


are you a fan of a team?....If a player betrays your team how are you gonna act?

If I was a die hard Cavs fan....and Kobe did the "betrayal"/Decision on TV....I would be hurt and angry....:confusedshrug:




Lebron should have never left Cleveland...period point blank....

it was unethical and it goes against the fundamental DNA of competition .....

[AlphaWolf24]

someone is still in 2012..."villains" isn't even a relative term for this team or Lebron anymore, they're one of the most watched teams on TV, sell out home and away games, has top sales in NBA products due to members of the team as well as top endorsing deals, etc.

hate all you want, winning cures all...and the Heat/Lebron, no matter how much you despise what he, as a FREE AGENT, did. your "villain" remarks represent your OWN personal hate...and unsure how a team that doesnt impact your life in any way, can stir up so much anger within. you need help :confusedshrug:


Talking trash about a basketball player means I'm angry and impacted?

WTF?

That's all we did on the courts....talk trash 24/7.....now all you beta friendly's get rustled these days:confusedshrug:

I never said they weren't popular....they are very popular......as are most Villains.

[aj1987]

Lebron should have never left Cleveland...period point blank....

it was unethical and it goes against the fundamental DNA of competition .....
You simply don't understand how basketball works, do you? Kobe would've left the Lakers in '08, if they didn't get Gasol and he was on a bad team for 3 years. LeBron stuck with the same team for 7 years.

[DMAVS41]

You got Duncan 3rd all time right?

You know
LeBron's 11th season 2014 >>> Duncan's 11th? (2008)
LeBron's 10th season 2013 >>> Duncan's 10 (2007)
LeBron's 9th season 2012 >>> Duncan's 9th (2006)
Duncan's 8th 2005 >> LeBron's 8th (2011)
LeBron's 7th 2010 > Duncan's 7th (2004)
LeBron 2009 vs Duncan 2003 - Wash


LeBron's at his peak right now, he will pretty much end every head to head season superior to Duncan's until the end of his career.. Duncan wont have an argument.

I have him 4th.

And if Lebron has that kind of longevity and wins 5 plus titles (because this is assuming Duncan wins this year as if Lebron loses...Duncan wins)

Then I'll rank him over him.

The problem, you and every Lebron fan love to ignore, is that Lebron joined a loaded roster back in 11...and has played in probably the most pathetic 4 year stretch a conference has had overall in a long long time.

So while making 4 straight finals is impressive regardless...we have to use context.

The Spurs cakewalk to 6 straight finals from 03 through 08 playing this kind of competition.

Again...this is assuming the Heat lose.

Do you really expect people to go on and on about Lebron/Wade/Bosh joining forces in a truly horrific conference with quality coaching from Spo/Riley and quality team depth post 2011...and making 4 straight finals and winning 2? With one of the losses in the finals being one of the biggest upsets/chokes in NBA history on the biggest stage????

It's expected. You'd expect Duncan/Dirk/Kobe/KG/Shaq/MJ/Bird/Magic/Hakeem/Kareem...and on and on and on to win 2 or more titles in those 4 years. What you wouldn't expect, is for them to have the Lebron meltdown that happened in 11.

So again. It won't hurt his legacy, but it's not helping it. He's now on the Hakeem/Kobe tier. You have to actually do shit to be known as for sure better than them....this year underperforming in the regular season and then getting through the biggest joke of a road to the finals in a long time...just isn't impressive.

Nor is missing the last 7 minutes of a key finals game either...another one of many just "weird" Lebron moments in the playoffs throughout his career at this point.

Context please. The 07 Mavs...a team that lost in 6 in the first round in the West...in blowout fashion in 3 of the losses....cakewalks to the finals in the East. I bring that up because it was brought up earlier as getting to the finals is more impressive than losing early. Of course it is, but the Heat don't play real teams in the East. They played 1 playoff team (maybe) if they played in the West in the Pacers...and this team was in a severe slump at the time...they almost lost to the ****ing Hawks in 6. Does this finals appearance in a vacuum do anything for me? Hell no...the only reason it's worth noting is that they've made 4 in a row....but so would have so many other teams...like the Kobe/Gasol Lakers in 11. They aren't losing to the Pacers or Nets either....then they'd go play the 11 Mavs and get curb stomped in the finals and people would be praising Kobe and the team for making the finals...and that is totally unfair given how Kobe/Lakers are treated in 11 for that loss. They just happened to play far better competition in round 2 than the Heat will face until the finals.

That is how big of a disparity the competition level was/is.

I prefer to go really in depth on all this stuff. It's not just a...add up the accolades and titles for me. It matters under what circumstances and what context this shit is done in. And for Lebron to be 2 for 5 in the finals with at least two truly horrific performances...given his circumstances now in his career with teams in 07, 09, 10..(have to count those if you are going to hold other players accountable), 11, 12, 13, and 14...capable of at least getting to the finals....you start to look at the results and they aren't what you would expect from a top 5 GOAT. Especially as all those chances outside of 07 have come right in the heart of his peak/prime.

That is why this year...is so important right now. A title here vaults Lebron up hugely in the all time rankings for good. He solidifies his place above Kobe/Hakeem tier for good....at least for me. No title and it won't hurt him...like I said before, but there will be more work to be done.

[r15mohd]

Talking trash about a basketball player means I'm angry and impacted?

WTF?

That's all we did on the courts....talk trash 24/7.....now all you beta friendly's get rustled these days:confusedshrug:

I never said they weren't popular....they are very popular......as are most Villains.

so long as you admit it's trash and based on pure speculation of your own hatred...perfectly fine by me! :rockon:


as far as villain and very popular...many times over, wrong again!

next you'll tell me villain's are America's favorites, too :rolleyes:

In the last year the two-time defending champion Miami Heat have overtaken the Los Angeles Lakers as America's favorite NBA team, according to an ESPN Sports Poll.

The poll was administered over a 12-month period that ended in March. It tracks fan base sizes and fan base demographics for all major sports through a monthly telephone survey of 1,500 Americans ages 12 and older.

Overall, the poll shows that the Heat rank sixth overall among America's favorite teams -- three spots ahead of the Lakers. While Miami is pursuing a three-peat as NBA champion this month in the NBA Finals, the Lakers were 27-55 this season, the worst 82-game record in the history of the franchise.

The Dallas Cowboys are the polled fans' favorite sports team, and three other NFL teams are in the top five -- the Pittsburgh Steelers at No. 2, the Green Bay Packers at No. 3 and the Denver Broncos at No. 5. The New York Yankees are fourth in the poll.

The ESPN Sports Poll's 12-month findings also showed that the NFL is America's favorite sports league and accounted for 40 percent of the top 10 favorite athletes of fans polled. Overall, seven of America's 10 favorite sports teams are NFL teams.

Link: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11040129/miami-heat-america-top-nba-team-espn-sports-poll-shows

[r15mohd]

I have him 4th.

And if Lebron has that kind of longevity and wins 5 plus titles (because this is assuming Duncan wins this year as if Lebron loses...Duncan wins)

Then I'll rank him over him.

The problem, you and every Lebron fan love to ignore, is that Lebron joined a loaded roster back in 11...and has played in probably the most pathetic 4 year stretch a conference has had overall in a long long time.

So while making 4 straight finals is impressive regardless...we have to use context.

The Spurs cakewalk to 6 straight finals from 03 through 08 playing this kind of competition.

Again...this is assuming the Heat lose.

Do you really expect people to go on and on about Lebron/Wade/Bosh joining forces in a truly horrific conference with quality coaching from Spo/Riley and quality team depth post 2011...and making 4 straight finals and winning 2? With one of the losses in the finals being one of the biggest upsets/chokes in NBA history on the biggest stage????

It's expected. You'd expect Duncan/Dirk/Kobe/KG/Shaq/MJ/Bird/Magic/Hakeem/Kareem...and on and on and on to win 2 or more titles in those 4 years. What you wouldn't expect, is for them to have the Lebron meltdown that happened in 11.

So again. It won't hurt his legacy, but it's not helping it. He's now on the Hakeem/Kobe tier. You have to actually do shit to be known as for sure better than them....this year underperforming in the regular season and then getting through the biggest joke of a road to the finals in a long time...just isn't impressive.

Nor is missing the last 7 minutes of a key finals game either...another one of many just "weird" Lebron moments in the playoffs throughout his career at this point.

Context please. The 07 Mavs...a team that lost in 6 in the first round in the West...in blowout fashion in 3 of the losses....cakewalks to the finals in the East.

That is how big of a disparity the competition level was/is.


DMAVS and his ranting again :facepalm

no one remembers the losses or meltdowns when it's all said and done, why can't you see this already. does anyone call out Shaq or Kobe when losing in 2004...nope, just the 3peat. what about Magic's 5 for 9 record, nope just the 5. Lebron will be remembered for 2012, 2013 and hopefully another successful year in 2014.

[DMAVS41]

DMAVS and his ranting again :facepalm

no one remembers the losses or meltdowns when it's all said and done, why can't you see this already. does anyone call out Shaq or Kobe when losing in 2004...nope, just the 3peat. what about Magic's 5 for 9 record, nope just the 5. Lebron will be remembered for 2012, 2013 and hopefully another successful year in 2014.

It's not about calling him out dude.

Please listen.

Where do you think Kobe, or Shaq, ranks if they had won the title in 04??????

They'd both be higher ranked...and rightfully so.

Do you really not get this? You act like I'm saying;

Oh, Lebron sucks if he doesn't win this year.


No...what I'm saying is that his legacy is not going to be for sure better than the likes of Hakeem/Kobe/Bird/Shaq...etc. by losing in the finals.

That is the point.

Bird had a ton of letdown moments in his career yet he's still a top 8 player ever for everyone. Lebron will get there unless he doesn't play after this year, but the point is that he's not there right now. Also, if Bird didn't have those moments and he won a couple more titles...he might be regarded as the GOAT. He'd be a better player if he didn't have those moments. Do you not get this?

I'm not making some broad statement about Lebron. We are specifically and carefully comparing him to the 10 best players and careers of all time.

[gts]

2 for 5 record in the Finals is a bit hard to overlook...

[Roundball_Rock]

How are consecutive 7 game ECF's "cakewalks" (one against a team that was a year removed from a NBA finals in which it took the Western champ to 7 games)?

The problem with this cakewalk talk is it ignores that eventually East and West shall meet. If the East is as weak as alleged then one would expect the Western champion to demolish the Eastern champion (i.e. the Lakers against the Sixers or Nets in the early 2000's). Why? Well, if the Western teams are a cut above the Eastern teams outside the Heat--and the Heat are having trouble defeating said inferior Eastern teams (2012 Pacers, 2012 Celtics, 2013 Pacers) then logically the Western champion must>>>>the Heat. Yet the Heat beat the Spurs last year, albeit narrowly, and backdoor swept the Thunder.

[Carbine]

So it would be better if he lost before the finals in '11, '07 and this year assuming they lose?

Doesn't make sense.

[DMAVS41]

How are consecutive 7 game ECF's "cakewalks" (one against a team that was a year removed from a NBA finals in which it took the Western champ to 7 games)?

The problem with this cakewalk talk is it ignores that eventually East and West shall meet. If the East is as weak as alleged then one would expect the Western champion to demolish the Eastern champion. Why? Well, if the Western teams are a cut above the Eastern teams outside the Heat--and the Heat are not demolishing said inferior teams (2012 Pacers, 2012 Celtics, 2013 Pacers) then logically the Western champion must>>>>the Heat. Yet the Heat beat the Spurs last year, albeit narrowly, and backdoor swept the Thunder.

Faulty logic.

The Heat don't play themselves. Nobody is saying the Heat aren't a great team. But they aren't part of the Heat's competition....so you are using flawed logic.

The East being weak does not mean the Heat shouldn't beat the West in the finals. That makes no sense.

Please tell me you see the flaw here...


The Pacers are a great matchup against the Heat...and again, the Heat were a slumping and injured team last year...their margin of error was so huge in the ECF last year that they could play like shit and still win. That doesn't happen for teams in the West...at least not nearly as often.

Also, you really seem to ignore the cumulative toll it takes on teams/players playing tough series against tough competition...even if the series are lopsided. It's no shock to me that the one year the Heat didn't win was when they would have had to beat 3 really good to great teams en route to the title.

Yes, they escaped in 12 by the Celtics with Bosh injured, but again that speaks to the huge margin of error. They could lose a key player in the ECF and still win. Most teams don't have that luxury. Would they have beaten the Thunder with Bosh basically missing the first 6 games against the Thunder? In my opinion...no. It's stuff like that....everyone ignores this.

[r15mohd]

It's not about calling him out dude.

Please listen.

Where do you think Kobe, or Shaq, ranks if they had won the title in 04??????

They'd both be higher ranked...and rightfully so.

Do you really not get this? You act like I'm saying;

Oh, Lebron sucks if he doesn't win this year.


No...what I'm saying is that his legacy is not going to be for sure better than the likes of Hakeem/Kobe/Bird/Shaq...etc. by losing in the finals.

That is the point.

Bird had a ton of letdown moments in his career yet he's still a top 8 player ever for everyone. Lebron will get there unless he doesn't play after this year, but the point is that he's not there right now. Also, if Bird didn't have those moments and he won a couple more titles...he might be regarded as the GOAT. He'd be a better player if he didn't have those moments. Do you not get this?

I'm not making some broad statement about Lebron. We are specifically and carefully comparing him to the 10 best players and careers of all time.


there's nothing to get...you bring up notions how Lebron will have this overcast of 2011 and 2007 for upteen years to come, yet no ranking uses a "loss in the finals" as a bad thing. if they won, it's a different story but you can't go on if's to make your point///there's no foundation in that AT ALL!

bottom line is no one will remember the faults, only how high they got time and time again. they won't care the competition either...Magic had how many HOFers alongside him, what about Bird. What about the Showtime Lakers week competition in the west during their reign? NONE OF IT WILL MATTER!!!

We rank players continuously on what they achieved, not what they didn't or came short of...it's been this way for prior generations and it will carry on as Lebron and Kobe and Wade and whoever else retires.

[DMAVS41]

there's nothing to get...you bring up notions how Lebron will have this overcast of 2011 and 2007 for upteen years to come, yet no ranking uses a "loss in the finals" as a bad thing. if they won, it's a different story but you can't go on if's to make your point///there's no foundation in that AT ALL!

bottom line is no one will remember the faults, only how high they got time and time again. they won't care the competition either...Magic had how many HOFers alongside him, what about Bird. What about the Showtime Lakers week competition in the west during their reign? NONE OF IT WILL MATTER!!!

We rank players continuously on what they achieved, not what they didn't or came short of...it's been this way for prior generations and it will carry on as Lebron and Kobe and Wade and whoever else retires.

Wrong.

You are remembering the faults...you just are looking at it differently. Which is why I said it won't damage his legacy at all...it just won't boost it. So it's just semantics you are arguing. Obviouly if Lebron wins....his legacy is increased. If he loses...his legacy is not increased. Do you deny this?

Are you denying that you'd rank Lebron higher if he won in 07 and 11? Please answer. There is a difference between achieving 2 rings and 4 rings...you just are thinking about it in a different way. The end result is exactly the same.

Also, you seem to ignore how players play as well...and that certainly matters. We do that as well...we don't rank Wade too highly off these last 2 titles because of his play.

[r15mohd]

Wrong.

You are remembering the faults...you just are looking at it differently.

Are you denying that you'd rank Lebron higher if he won in 07 and 11? Please answer. There is a difference between achieving 2 rings and 4 rings...you just are thinking about it in a different way. The end result is exactly the same.


no DMAVS, you try to take in the faults to apply them to certain players...does any of Jordan's failures prior to the 91-93 Pippen arrival apply to any of your rankings of MJ? He had 6 years of not getting anywhere in his onset of the NBA, yet he's ranked higher than Magic to you because he's undefeated? :confusedshrug: how can this be when your "ranking system" takes into account the failures? :rolleyes:

in Magic's 12 year career, he's had 9 appearances in the Finals and 5 titles...1 less the MJ. yet, Magic is more accomplished given he continued success no? why isn't he above MJ then? :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

your ranking is flawed and subjective to discredit who you want to...just as you do for the 2011 series to make the Heat some crazy superteam as opposed to their following championship winning years in 2012 and 2013.


in the end...it'll be based off of accomplishments, not if's and failures, as you would so much like to apply to whoever you see fit. :rolleyes:

[Roundball_Rock]

The East being weak does not mean the Heat shouldn't beat the West in the finals. That makes no sense.

It does if they are having trouble with inferior Eastern teams. If the Heat are as great as alleged--or the top Eastern teams as weak as alleged--the Heat should be steamrolling through the Eastern playoffs every year. That was not the case in 2012 and 2013.


The Pacers are a great matchup against the Heat...and again, the Heat were a slumping and injured team last year...

The Pacers also beat the #2 seed, the 54 win Knicks with a borderline superstar, in the ECSF. It is not as if they coasted their way to the ECF and then benefited from a good match up.


It's no shock to me that the one year the Heat didn't win was when they would have had to beat 3 really good to great teams en route to the title.

Didn't the Heat go 4-1, 4-1, 4-1 in every Eastern series that year?

I do agree there is a cumulative toll--I am not saying the Heat have it tough. What I am saying is their road is not as easy as people make it seem as.


Yes, they escaped in 12 by the Celtics with Bosh injured, but again that speaks to the huge margin of error. They could lose a key player in the ECF and still win. Most teams don't have that luxury. Would they have beaten the Thunder with Bosh basically missing the first 6 games against the Thunder? In my opinion...no. It's stuff like that....everyone ignores this.

Injuries happen all the time in sports. The Suns were the #2 or #3 seed and made the WCF without Amare in 2005. The 99' Knicks beat the Pacers in the ECF without Ewing. Larry Hughes was hobbled to a 7/3/2 player in the 07' ECF. The Magic got to the Finals in 09' without their all-star PG. The Heat winning a few games without Bosh is not unprecedented.


there's nothing to get...you bring up notions how Lebron will have this overcast of 2011 and 2007 for upteen years to come, yet no ranking uses a "loss in the finals" as a bad thing. if they won, it's a different story but you can't go on if's to make your point///there's no foundation in that AT ALL!

bottom line is no one will remember the faults, only how high they got time and time again. they won't care the competition either...Magic had how many HOFers alongside him, what about Bird. What about the Showtime Lakers week competition in the west during their reign? NONE OF IT WILL MATTER!!!

We rank players continuously on what they achieved, not what they didn't or came short of...it's been this way for prior generations and it will carry on as Lebron and Kobe and Wade and whoever else retires.

:applause: Exactly. No one will care about any of this 10 years from--perhaps not even 5 years from now. Does anyone talk about "Tragic Magic" (84' Finals) these days or the weak West they had in the 80's? How about Bird's subpar 81' Finals? Hakeem lost in the first round or missed the playoffs 9 times and people put him on the same plane as LeBron, Duncan, Kobe--ignoring half of his career. The list goes on and on. The only player with a "perfect" career in terms of winning is Russell (11 rings in 13 years and 12 in 13 if he did not get hurt in the Finals one year)--and few people have him as the GOAT and many have him outside their top 5.

[NumberSix]

no DMAVS, you try to take in the faults to apply them to certain players...does any of Jordan's failures prior to the 91-93 Pippen arrival apply to any of your rankings of MJ? He had 6 years of not getting anywhere in his onset of the NBA, yet he's ranked higher than Magic to you because he's undefeated? :confusedshrug: how can this be when your "ranking system" takes into account the failures? :rolleyes:

in Magic's 12 year career, he's had 9 appearances in the Finals and 5 titles...1 less the MJ. yet, Magic is more accomplished given he continued success no? why isn't he above MJ then? :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

your ranking is flawed and subjective to discredit who you want to...just as you do for the 2011 series to make the Heat some crazy superteam as opposed to their following championship winning years in 2012 and 2013.


in the end...it'll be based off of accomplishments, not if's and failures, as you would so much like to apply to whoever you see fit. :rolleyes:
I've said it many times. DMAVS is fundamentally incapable of being objective about LeBron. He is skewed by his obvious dislike of him. He constantly applies measures to LeBron that he doesn't apply to anyone else.

He somehow has LeBron and Hakeem on the exact same level, despite the fact that Hakeem has less accomplishments and a record of 9 seasons being either eliminated in the first round or not making the playoffs at all. But apparently losing in the finals is a bigger strike than that.

[NumberSix]

People need to realize 1 simple reality. Outside of winning the title, losing a finals is the greatest amount of winning possible.

[r15mohd]

I've said it many times. DMAVS is fundamentally incapable of being objective about LeBron. He is skewed by his obvious dislike of him. He constantly applies measures to LeBron that he doesn't apply to anyone else.

He somehow has LeBron and Hakeem on the exact same level, despite the fact that Hakeem has less accomplishments and a record of 9 seasons being either eliminated in the first round or not making the playoffs at all. But apparently losing in the finals is a bigger strike than that.


ohh I definitely know...I've gone back and forth with him on this and the same 2011 Heat team scenario many times. saying the 2011 team is the best Heat squad there is. he's completely delusional!

i'm sure he's drafting an essay on some new formula as we speak (type) :rolleyes:

[NumberSix]

ohh I definitely know...I've gone back and forth with him on this and the same 2011 Heat team scenario many times. saying the 2011 team is the best Heat squad there is. he's completely delusional!

i'm sure he's drafting an essay on some new formula as we speak (type) :rolleyes:
He only convinced himself that 2011 was an awesome team because that is the team his Mavs beat for their only title in franchise history. It makes him feel like his title is more impressive if that was the best Heat team.

[DMAVS41]

no DMAVS, you try to take in the faults to apply them to certain players...does any of Jordan's failures prior to the 91-93 Pippen arrival apply to any of your rankings of MJ? He had 6 years of not getting anywhere in his onset of the NBA, yet he's ranked higher than Magic to you because he's undefeated? :confusedshrug: how can this be when your "ranking system" takes into account the failures? :rolleyes:

in Magic's 12 year career, he's had 9 appearances in the Finals and 5 titles...1 less the MJ. yet, Magic is more accomplished given he continued success no? why isn't he above MJ then? :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

your ranking is flawed and subjective to discredit who you want to...just as you do for the 2011 series to make the Heat some crazy superteam as opposed to their following championship winning years in 2012 and 2013.


in the end...it'll be based off of accomplishments, not if's and failures, as you would so much like to apply to whoever you see fit. :rolleyes:


Yes...it would.

I would rank MJ as even a bigger GOAT if he had won 3 more titles in the 80's....

You are being absurd at this point.

The notion that you would not rank Jerry West differently if he won 7 titles is ****ing laughable and you know it. If he won 7 titles...it would have taken a better player to do that in his circumstances...therefore he'd be ranked higher and rightfully so.

[kamil]

No.

He's done enough to damage his 'legacy' after the 2010 collusion, his failed championship runs, getting bailed out by Ray Allen, the asterisk in 2012 and his vanishing act in 2011 with an 8 point finals game and let's not even mention his flopping tactics.

The ship has sailed for being on mount rushmore or anywhere near it.

[DMAVS41]

I've said it many times. DMAVS is fundamentally incapable of being objective about LeBron. He is skewed by his obvious dislike of him. He constantly applies measures to LeBron that he doesn't apply to anyone else.

He somehow has LeBron and Hakeem on the exact same level, despite the fact that Hakeem has less accomplishments and a record of 9 seasons being either eliminated in the first round or not making the playoffs at all. But apparently losing in the finals is a bigger strike than that.


You just got done saying that if Lebron lost and never played another game...you could definitely see someone ranking Hakeem higher.

So please explain how I'm being crazy...on your own view you agree....:wtf:

Also, stop the straw men...please.

I have repeatedly said making the finals is better than losing earlier....and I have also said that losing WILL NOT hurt Lebron's legacy. I have just said it won't boost it. If Lebron loses this series...his legacy is not going to be boosted. That is absurd. That doesn't make sense. I'm talking about this series in and of itself...I already said that making 4 straight finals boosts the legacy of Lebron and the Heat....

[Bl]

http://02804cf22a6e7b7042d7-acae2c2628dcdf3f1dfc3ee4f6e97624.r48.cf1.rackcdn.c om/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/lebron-james-cramping-meme8-570x425.jpg

[DMAVS41]

ohh I definitely know...I've gone back and forth with him on this and the same 2011 Heat team scenario many times. saying the 2011 team is the best Heat squad there is. he's completely delusional!

i'm sure he's drafting an essay on some new formula as we speak (type) :rolleyes:

calling me names doesn't change the fact that you are wrong.

you can't defend the notion you put forth at all.

also, you are making shit up again...I've repeatedly said that with a healthy Bosh I think the 12 team would be the best...he just wasn't healthy.

My point has always been that the 11 team was better than 13 team in the playoffs...which is honestly just ****ing obvious to anyone not incredibly biased.

[NumberSix]

Yes...it would.

I would rank MJ as even a bigger GOAT if he had won 3 more titles in the 80's....

You are being absurd at this point.

The notion that you would not rank Jerry West differently if he won 7 titles is ****ing laughable and you know it. If he won 7 titles...it would have taken a better player to do that in his circumstances...therefore he'd be ranked higher and rightfully so.
He's an idea. How about we rank players based on how good they are at playing instead of arbitrary collections of circumstances which each person decides to arbitrarily weigh differently.

He's my most valuable ranking criteria. Winning consecutive MVP+FMVP seasons. Bron and MJ are the only players that did it. Kobe and Hakeem have no case.

MJ and LeBron tied for GOAT.

[NumberSix]

You just got done saying that if Lebron lost and never played another game...you could definitely see someone ranking Hakeem higher.

So please explain how I'm being crazy...on your own view you agree....:wtf:
If I did, should be easy to quote me saying it, right?

[DMAVS41]

Hakeem, I could see a possible case for. Kobe? Are you kidding? Sounds like trolling.

Bolded....:confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

He's an idea. How about we rank players based on how good they are at playing instead of arbitrary collections of circumstances which each person decides to arbitrarily weigh differently.

He's my most valuable ranking criteria. Winning consecutive MVP+FMVP seasons. Bron and MJ are the only players that did it. Kobe and Hakeem have no case.

MJ and LeBron tied for GOAT.

It's both...

How good a player is directly impacts things like titles.

That is what people like you don't get. If Lebron was better at basketball (like MJ as good as MJ was)...he wouldn't have lost the 11 finals.

Do you understand that? The reason success and winning does matter, even though I'm actually against title counting for the most part, is because it levels the playing field.

If Lebron was as good as MJ...he'd win this series. Just like he would have won in 11.

Those are as close to facts as we get when judging basketball players and you seem to ignore that.

I rank Magic 3rd all time. In large part because of how good at basketball I thought he was.

Again you straw man. I do exactly what you want...I also just don't ignore that winning/losing is a reflection, on some level, of how good a player is at playing the damn game.


You realize Lebron now has had 4 straight years of having great circumstances to win...right? This isn't 07 through 10 in Cleveland where it was unfair to hold him to this standard. Which is funny when you accuse me of being a Lebron hater...everyone called me a Lebron stan in 09 and 10 on here. It's about context and circumstances...Lebron is judged more harshly in terms of his successes now because of the situation he finds himself in.

Just like you agreed that if KD was as good as his fans claimed he is...he should win in the playoffs....or at least dominate to a certain level. Again, how a player plays in certain situations and whether or not their team wins in certain situations....is a reflection of how good a player is at basketball. Remember as you keep saying;

NoExcuses

[NumberSix]

Bolded....:confusedshrug:
Fair enough. My own fault not being specific enough. I was saying that I could see an argument for saying Hakeem might be a better player. As for "legacy" there is no possible case. At most, their value just as players is close. LeBron has the clear cut accomplishments edge though, so for "legacy" there is literally no case for anything but LeBron being decidedly higher.

[NumberSix]

It's both...

How good a player is directly impacts things like titles.

That is what people like you don't get. If Lebron was better at basketball (like MJ as good as MJ was)...he wouldn't have lost the 11 finals.

Do you understand that? The reason success and winning does matter, even though I'm actually against title counting for the most part, is because it levels the playing field.

If Lebron was as good as MJ...he'd win this series. Just like he would have won in 11.

Those are as close to facts as we get when judging basketball players and you seem to ignore that.

I rank Magic 3rd all time. In large part because of how good at basketball I thought he was.

Again you straw man. I do exactly what you want...I also just don't ignore that winning/losing is a reflection, on some level, of how good a player is at playing the damn game.


You realize Lebron now has had 4 straight years of having great circumstances to win...right? This isn't 07 through 10 in Cleveland where it was unfair to hold him to this standard. Which is funny when you accuse me of being a Lebron hater...everyone called me a Lebron stan in 09 and 10 on here. It's about context and circumstances...Lebron is judged more harshly in terms of his successes now because of the situation he finds himself in.

Just like you agreed that if KD was as good as his fans claimed he is...he should win in the playoffs....or at least dominate to a certain level. Again, how a player plays in certain situations and whether or not their team wins in certain situations....is a reflection of how good a player is at basketball. Remember as you keep saying;

NoExcuses
Not at all. How good LeBron is or isn't has no affect on the 2011 outcome. You know good and well that he was more than good enough to win that series. He just didn't engage and shyed away from it for whatever reason.


If Jordan was as good as LeBron, he would have won in 1990 and 1995.

[DMAVS41]

Fair enough. My own fault not being specific enough. I was saying that I could see an argument for saying Hakeem might be a better player. As for "legacy" there is no possible case. At most, their value just as players is close. LeBron has the clear cut accomplishments edge though, so for "legacy" there is literally no case for anything but LeBron being decidedly higher.

Fair enough.

I feel like I have said this before, but I will say it again. They are one and the same for me.

When I rank players...I combine both...they are inseparable to me. I combine how good I think a player is at the game...with his legacy (the things you are talking about such as accomplishments and such)...because the legacy, given his circumstances, a player produces is a product of how good at basketball he is. MJ won 6 titles because of the player he was given those circumstances. If he had only won 4....he wouldn't have been as good at basketball. That is my point.

And I also, as best I can, use context and circumstances.

There is no perfect formula and no easy answers....unless we are ignoring everything other than accolades...and then I think you get really shitty conclusions.

Like Kobe being over-rated....a common one.

[DMAVS41]

Not at all. How good LeBron is or isn't has no affect on the 2011 outcome. You know good and well that he was more than good enough to win that series. He just didn't engage and shyed away from it for whatever reason.


If Jordan was as good as LeBron, he would have won in 1990 and 1995.


And that is part of how good a player is. You can't ignore that. That goes into the formula that makes up lebron as a basketball player.

The fact that he did that matters...that series is a product of the player he is in some part. How large a part is what is up for debate. We don't just sweep that under the rug.

It matters on some level. Again, how much it matters is what we should be debating...not whether it matters or not.

That is why I think people really don't get this stuff right.

Durant is a perfect example of this year in the regular season. I don't want to keep saying "told you so" to Durant fans because I like Durant and them like KG, but you don't rank Durant properly off his regular season play.

How good these players are at the game is reflected in these moments when the games matter the most.

We just obviously have a different philosophy here.

Lebron should and would be known as a better basketball player if he had been able to overcome the Mavs in 2011. And his ranking all time should reflect his failure...

[NumberSix]

Fair enough.

I feel like I have said this before, but I will say it again. They are one and the same for me.

When I rank players...I combine both...they are inseparable to me. I combine how good I think a player is at the game...with his legacy (the things you are talking about such as accomplishments and such)...because the legacy, given his circumstances, a player produces is a product of how good at basketball he is. MJ won 6 titles because of the player he was given those circumstances. If he had only won 4....he wouldn't have been as good at basketball. That is my point.

And I also, as best I can, use context and circumstances.

There is no perfect formula and no easy answers....unless we are ignoring everything other than accolades...and then I think you get really shitty conclusions.

Like Kobe being over-rated....a common one.
LeBron played better against the 2009 Magic than Kobe by any objective measure. Who do we give more credit to?

You can try to dress it up all you want, but you're just doing hi-tech ring-counting......... As long at it works to your predetermined desired outcome.

[DMAVS41]

LeBron played better against the 2009 Magic than Kobe by any objective measure. Who do we give more credit to?

You can try to dress it up all you want, but you're just doing hi-tech ring-counting......... As long at it works to your predetermined desired outcome.

What?

I agree with that. I wouldn't give Kobe more credit in 09 than Lebron. That isn't a fair comparison at all and I'd totally side with you here.

It's not high tech ring counting.

It's based on circumstances and context. I don't give Kobe any more credit for his play in 09 and 10 than Lebron...in fact, I ranked Lebron over him in both of those years.

It's about comparable circumstances.

You still are just refusing to get it. It's all about the context.

[NumberSix]

And that is part of how good a player is. You can't ignore that. That goes into the formula that makes up lebron as a basketball player.

The fact that he did that matters...that series is a product of the player he is in some part. How large a part is what is up for debate. We don't just sweep that under the rug.

It matters on some level. Again, how much it matters is what we should be debating...not whether it matters or not.

That is why I think people really don't get this stuff right.

Durant is a perfect example of this year in the regular season. I don't want to keep saying "told you so" to Durant fans because I like Durant and them like KG, but you don't rank Durant properly off his regular season play.

How good these players are at the game is reflected in these moments when the games matter the most.

We just obviously have a different philosophy here.

Lebron should and would be known as a better basketball player if he had been able to overcome the Mavs in 2011. And his ranking all time should reflect his failure...
I actually doubt that. If they won all 3 years together, The Heat would probably be regarded as nothing more than a Yankees-esque pile on team. It would be like USA winning Olympic gold in basketball.

[DMAVS41]

I actually doubt that. If they won all 3 years together, The Heat would probably be regarded as nothing more than a Yankees-esque pile on team. It would be like USA winning Olympic gold in basketball.

That is a bit of a separate point...

[Hey Yo]

You just got done saying that if Lebron lost and never played another game...you could definitely see someone ranking Hakeem higher.

So please explain how I'm being crazy...on your own view you agree....:wtf:

Also, stop the straw men...please.

I have repeatedly said making the finals is better than losing earlier....and I have also said that losing WILL NOT hurt Lebron's legacy. I have just said it won't boost it. If Lebron loses this series...his legacy is not going to be boosted. That is absurd. That doesn't make sense. I'm talking about this series in and of itself...I already said that making 4 straight finals boosts the legacy of Lebron and the Heat....
Some (not you) don't realize that if you lose in the Finals when you were the underdog going in, it doesn't hurt one's legacy. Winning it as the underdog boosts it up a little higher than if you won and were the favorites.

[NumberSix]

What?

I agree with that. I wouldn't give Kobe more credit in 09 than Lebron. That isn't a fair comparison at all and I'd totally side with you here.

It's not high tech ring counting.

It's based on circumstances and context. I don't give Kobe any more credit for his play in 09 and 10 than Lebron...in fact, I ranked Lebron over him in both of those years.

It's about comparable circumstances.

You still are just refusing to get it. It's all about the context.
Because I don't care about team titles for ranking individuals. LeBron was better than Kobe when he had 0 titles and Kobe had 5. I don't need titles to "confirm" what I can see with my own eyes. 1 clearly plays the game better than the other.

And I also think Kobe could have taken Michael's place on those Bulls teams and won all 6 of those same titles. Michael is still better though.

[NumberSix]

Some (not you) don't realize that if you lose in the Finals when you were the underdog going in, it doesn't hurt one's legacy. Winning it as the underdog boosts it up a little higher than if you won and were the favorites.
Not according to DMAVS. OKC and SAS were both slightly favoured to beat the Heat, but DMAVS says it would be an epic fail if Miami had lost.

I'm an all out Durant hater and I can be objective enough to say 2012 is in the plus column for Durant. It was an accomplishment, not a failure.

[DMAVS41]

Not according to DMAVS. OKC and SAS were both slightly favoured to beat the Heat, but DMAVS says it would be an epic fail if Miami had lost.

Please stop. Please stop the straw man.

I simply said that it won't help his legacy. I've repeatedly said it won't damage his legacy for losing.

[NumberSix]

Please stop. Please stop the straw man.

I simply said that it won't help his legacy. I've repeatedly said it won't damage his legacy for losing.
So losing this finals won't damage LeBron's legacy, right? SAS is indeed favoured again.

[DMAVS41]

Because I don't care about team titles for ranking individuals. LeBron was better than Kobe when he had 0 titles and Kobe had 5. I don't need titles to "confirm" what I can see with my own eyes. 1 clearly plays the game better than the other.

And I also think Kobe could have taken Michael's place on those Bulls teams and won all 6 of those same titles. Michael is still better though.

I put more into than that...we are talking about ranking entire careers here.

So it's more complicated.

I would agree, however, that if we took Lebron's 11 years vs Kobe's 11 best years...I'd take Lebron. But if Lebron were to retire tomorrow...it would be a real tough question for me as to who I'd take for their careers.

Again, what I often do is think about how a player plays throughout their careers...and yes, what they've accomplished given their circumstances...and I reflect on which player I'd draft over the other to start a team.

That is a small window into how I think about this stuff.

How a player ages and performs...matters. Take Wade vs Kobe. I'd rather have Wade at his best than Kobe...however, I'd definitely draft Kobe over Wade starting a team given the information we have to date. See the difference?

[DMAVS41]

So losing this finals won't damage LeBron's legacy, right? SAS is indeed favoured again.

Of course it won't damage his legacy. It just won't improve it from where it was starting the finals.

The only way his legacy is damaged is if he pulls a Kobe 04 or Lebron 11 again.

I've repeatedly said this.

[NumberSix]

Of course it won't damage his legacy. It just won't improve it from where it was starting the finals.

The only way his legacy is damaged is if he pulls a Kobe 04 or Lebron 11 again.

I've repeatedly said this.
It's all pointless because Miami will win the Series.

[ballup]

If Lebron craps the bed, his legacy is damaged.
If Lebron loses, but still produces, his legacy stays the same, but improvement of it will be harder than before.
If Lebron wins, legacy improves.

[ArbitraryWater]

http://i.gyazo.com/3cdc3070a191daaaeaadfd6d767af9d4.png

This is from the same guy who not too long ago blamed LeBron for not winning in 09, and I called him out on it, (via PM)... changing your agenda.

Hell, he tried to make 07/09/10 and add it up as some kind of "should have won!" year..

[SamuraiSWISH]

His 1.5 rings are weak in context, and retrospect.

[Kvnzhangyay]

His 1.5 rings are weak in context, and retrospect.

What context and retrospect?

[Mr Exlax]

The loss showed just how great LeBron is and how flawed that damn team was. I always said they weren't a great team and the Spurs showed exactly why. Fukk a smallball.

[Purch]

The Spurs will be an interesting part in the Lebron James documentary in 10 years.

[SamuraiSWISH]

What context and retrospect?
Weak East
Blowing 2011 By Himself
Lock Out Season
Ray Allen Hero Shot
1.5 for 4.5

[DMAVS41]

http://i.gyazo.com/3cdc3070a191daaaeaadfd6d767af9d4.png

This is from the same guy who not too long ago blamed LeBron for not winning in 09, and I called him out on it, (via PM)... changing your agenda.

Hell, he tried to make 07/09/10 and add it up as some kind of "should have won!" year..

I said you can't just shrug off 07/09/10 and list them as years in which the Cavs had "no chance" to win.

That is unfair...and you know it.

It's amazing how dumb you are some time.

You really gonna say a team that wins 66 games has 0 chance to win the title????? Of course not. You have to count those years as something...you come up with the solution and it's fine.

The point is simple. You can't reflect on Lebron's career and say he's only had 4 chances to win the title. That simply is not true.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The loss showed just how great LeBron is and how flawed that damn team was. I always said they weren't a great team and the Spurs showed exactly why. Fukk a smallball.
Yet he's the one who chose that route. Let me guess you're one of those clowns who refer to Miami like they're the Cavaliers now to mask LeBron's failures? Absolutely pathetic in my book. Their top end talent trumps the holes in the roster. That's why he went there and said "it gon be way"

[Swaggaboy80six]

Heat in 6.
Dumbbitch motherfvcker :roll: :roll: :roll: you mean heat in 6 years? Flying fakkit

[Cold soul]

Lebron legacy takes a small hit here, but nothing huge or anything like 2011 NBA Finals did.

[Lebron23]

No. He was the only bright spot for the Heat in the NBA Finals.

[Mr Exlax]

Yet he's the one who chose that route. Let me guess you're one of those clowns who refer to Miami like they're the Cavaliers now to mask LeBron's failures? Absolutely pathetic in my book. Their top end talent trumps the holes in the roster. That's why he went there and said "it gon be way"

I'm not asking you what you think about any of that. I don't care how he went about it. I don't care how the team was formed. I don't care. That's a different discussion entirely.
If the Miami team were as bad as the Cavs, he'd never have won 2 championships. Their top end talent wasn't fully utilized IMO. Dwade doesn't compliment Bron and Bosh should have been the 2nd option and played his correct position.
As far as the series against the Spurs, I can't see how LeBron could have done any more. He had help, but the help didn't show up. You can't turn a blind eye to that.

[TheMan]

It's all pointless because Miami will win the Series.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iaNIKGUESZ0/T-QutC3gm2I/AAAAAAAABhU/fx5g3MdDKQo/s1600/yao-ming-rage-face-photo-u1.jpg
How'd I miss this nugget :oldlol:

[rmt]

The Spurs will be an interesting part in the Lebron James documentary in 10 years.

Strange how everyone thought it'd be Kobe/Lakers when it turned out to be Duncan/Spurs.

MIA wasn't gonna beat the Spurs the way they were moving the ball. Spo's refusal to change the swarming/"fly around" defense played right into Spurs' hands. I guess it'd be very hard to change the way one plays defense for 4 years. But the "this is who we are and what we do" mantra has to go. Heat are no longer that much better than everyone else. Lebron's legacy isn't damaged or furthered by the loss - IMO, still just on the outside of the top 10. He needs more championships to rise up the list.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Weak East
Blowing 2011 By Himself
Lock Out Season
Ray Allen Hero Shot
1.5 for 4.5

Tell me how many players have 1.5 championships compared to the world population? Thats how exclusive his company is

[LA Lakers]

Nope. He was up against a far superior TEAM. I think his betrayal of Cleveland and his arrogant tv show Decision and his disappearing act against Dallas in the Finals will have more of an impact when the history books are written. Then again, the public has a very short attention span and most of the young bucks dont appreciate the history of the game or have respect for the legends as it is so, tough to say...