Name the modern point guards that are bigger and stronger than Big-O and Magic?

[CavaliersFTW]

http://tshq.co/wp-content/uploads/1ablog-oscarrobertsonx-large.jpg

The Big-O, Oscar Robertson 6-4 and 3/4 of an inch tall without shoes on and 205lbs rookie - 220lbs retired playing weight

http://www.howard.edu/newsroom/images/Magic%20Johnson%20Player.jpg

Earvin Magic Johnson 6-7 and 1/2 inches tall without shoes on and 215lbs rookie - 220+lbs prime (listed 255 during '96 comeback season... but I won't count that)

How many point guards in the league today are honestly bigger and stronger than that? Even Russell Westbrook is only 6-2 and 1/4 inches tall, and he's not 220. I always read "Oscar was the first big point guard at 6-5" and "Magic was the first 6-9 point guard" as if we should treat them as pioneers for being that size at that position implicating we've got point guards their size all over the league now. If that's the case where are they? I'm not even aware of any. Shouldn't we treat them as outliers or athletic marvels instead pioneers in that sense? :confusedshrug:

[Marchesk]

But, but, bigger, stronger, faster. We should be seeing Shaqbrook at the point, what with all this modern technology and superior conditioning.

[dubeta]

Those Pg's turned into SF's in todays game

Those people could get away at playing point because they were the only ones who knew how to dribble a ball in those days

[inclinerator]

lance stephensen

[rlsmooth775]

http://tshq.co/wp-content/uploads/1ablog-oscarrobertsonx-large.jpg

The Big-O, Oscar Robertson 6-4 and 3/4 of an inch tall without shoes on and 205lbs rookie - 220lbs retired playing weight

http://www.howard.edu/newsroom/images/Magic%20Johnson%20Player.jpg

Earvin Magic Johnson 6-7 and 1/2 inches tall without shoes on and 215lbs rookie - 220+lbs prime (listed 255 during '96 comeback season... but I won't count that)

How many point guards in the league today are honestly bigger and stronger than that? Even Russell Westbrook is only 6-2 and 1/4 inches tall, and he's not 220. I always read "Oscar was the first big point guard at 6-5" and "Magic was the first 6-9 point guard" as if we should treat them as pioneers for being that size at that position implicating we've got point guards their size all over the league now. If that's the case where are they? I'm not even aware of any. Shouldn't we treat them as outliers or athletic marvels instead pioneers in that sense? :confusedshrug:

Lebron

[CavaliersFTW]

lance stephensen
shooting guard

[rlsmooth775]

shooting guard

Retired players are boring

[andremiller07]

Boris Diaw

[CavaliersFTW]

Lebron
He's a forward. A great passing and ball handling forward of course, but he still brings the ball up no more often than say, Elgin Baylor or Scottie Pippen did, so at the end of the day he's still a forward.

[Milbuck]

Giannis at some point will transition into our true PG. Extremely inexperienced right now considering he's the youngest player in the entire league and that our coach rarely uses him outside of spotting up at the corners. But with his vision and legit PG instincts, he's gonna be there down the road. Even though he's already 6'10.5", he's still growing according to his his doctors and physical trainers. So in 4-5 years we could be looking at a 7' tall point guard with a 7'5" wingspan.

But to answer your question as of right now, can't think of anyone that is bigger and stronger. Vasquez and Livingston are both bigger than Oscar, but neither are strong and neither are great players.

[Cocaine80s]

Lebron

[Rocketswin2013]

http://bigbluehistory.net/bb/Graphics/Players/eric_bledsoe3.jpg

Eric Bledsoe is just stronger than Robertson and Magic. And next season, Marcus Smart is about to take a streaming pile on every PG ever, at the very least, in comparison to rookie PG's strength-wise.

[CavaliersFTW]

http://bigbluehistory.net/bb/Graphics/Players/eric_bledsoe3.jpg

Eric Bledsoe is just stronger than Robertson and Magic. And next season, Marcus Smart is about to take a streaming pile on every PG ever, at the very least, in comparison to rookie PG's strength-wise.
6-4 and 3/4 220
6-7 and 1/2 220+

vs

6-0 and 1/4 199lbs?

Sarcasm right?

Marcus Smart on draftexpress looks to be 6-2 and 227, he lifts weights though, to be fair the Big O and Magic would probably at least weigh the same had they lifted weights, given their significant advantage in height and in Oscar's case, a similarly solid frame.

[Marchesk]

http://bigbluehistory.net/bb/Graphics/Players/eric_bledsoe3.jpg

Eric Bledsoe is just stronger than Robertson and Magic. And next season, Marcus Smart is about to take a streaming pile on every PG ever, at the very least, in comparison to rookie PG's strength-wise.

Because a bulked up point guard who looks like an NFL safety is what you need running the show.

No more of this nonsense:

http://www.thefitnesschamp.com/storage/steve_nash_suns0bg.jpg

Or this:

http://www.interbasket.net/players/usa/stockton.jpg

[iamgine]

None because being big and strong are not a big need for point guards.

[Rocketswin2013]

And weight really isn't a good determining factor for strength. Kevin Durant is weighs more than any name mentioned in this thread and he's not close to as strong as Bledsoe or Smart.

[Marchesk]

None because being big and strong are not a big need for point guards.

I really don't get the emphasis on bulking up in the NBA. Plenty of great players have been slender. I understanding weight training for explosiveness or conditioning, but not to bulk up. Unless you're an undersized big.

[bizil]

Since Big O and Magic, the biggest PG's were Steve Smith, Penny, Jalen Rose, Lebron in his rookie year, and Pippen at times in Chicago and later in Portland years. I say these guys because they played in lineups with a true SG and a true SF. In Miami, Smitty had Harold Miner at SG and Glen Rice at SF. Penny had Nick at SG and 3D at SF in Orlando. Rose had Reggie at SG and Mullin at SF in Indy. Bron had Ricky Davis at SG and Miles at SF in his rookie year. And Pip had Smitty or Wells at SG and Smitty, Detlef, or even Sheed at SF in Portland. All these lineups had big PG's LEGIT playing with true SG's SF's, or combo forwards. It wasn't a POINT FORWARD kind of setup.

So frankly today, Michael Carter Williams or Shaun Livingston fit the bill the most today at 6'6 and 6'7. Sure Lebron can EASILY play PG flat out. But for that to happen, it would be Bron at PG, Wade at SG, Battier at SF, Bosh, Lewis, or Haslem at PF, and Birdman or Bosh at center. Bron is the Heat's primary ball handler any way, but it's from the SF or PF spot. Because often times Chalmers or Cole is TECHNICALLY at PG. While D-Wade is at SG. So people HAVE TO DECIFER PG from point forward.

[NZStreetBaller]

amazing how two of the biggest point guards were two OF the best point guards right??

[BoutPractice]

None, unless we consider LeBron to be a PG in disguise. Early Lamar Odom had PG tendencies, and Harden at the beginning of his career was often used as a primary ballhander, but neither were "real" PGs. As for Wade, he's a bit too short at 6-4 to fit the bill.

However there's definitely been a resurgence of longer and stronger and big guards, just few that were both...

Baron Davis and Deron Williams had both height and a certain mass, making advantage of both, but they were only 6-3. Marcus Smart if he plays PG in the league projects to be in that tradition.

Otherwise it's been all about length and athleticism lately. Length at PG has been spectacularly effective recently: Dragic at 6-4, Rubio at 6-4, MCW at 6-6, and even the fairly decent return of Shaun Livingston at 6-7 can be used as examples. And obviously superior athleticism has been the most sought after trait, as every GM is looking for the next DRose or Westbrook.

[played0ut]

I really don't get the emphasis on bulking up in the NBA. Plenty of great players have been slender. I understanding weight training for explosiveness or conditioning, but not to bulk up. Unless you're an undersized big.

Good for posting up on smaller players. Obvious example, MJ backing down defenders in the post. Though it was more practical during the more physical days.

[Euroleague]

Papaloukas was bigger than Robertson.

[bdreason]

LeBron James is the obvious comparison. You can claim he doesn't play PG because of the offense his team runs... but he sure looked liked he was playing PG in Cleveland for 7 years.

Human genetics have not changed in the span of 50 years. If you compare the elite athletes across generations, they will be very similar. However, the average athleticism of the league is another discussion, because that can vary based on the number of available 'elite' athletes, and the propensity of teams to draft athleticism (often called potential) over skill.

[alexd]

Papaloukas was bigger than Robertson.
and far less athletic

[alexd]

Because a bulked up point guard who looks like an NFL safety is what you need running the show.

No more of this nonsense:

http://www.thefitnesschamp.com/storage/steve_nash_suns0bg.jpg

Or this:

http://www.interbasket.net/players/usa/stockton.jpg
being stong has nothing to do with being a good player,but bledose would kill em both in a fight lol

[Rubio2Gasol]

Baron?

[Cocaine80s]

if were going pound 4 pound then Nate Robinson.

[kureyşi-gospurs]

There's a man called Tyreke Evans who can legitly play point guard when called. Strong, tall, incredibly creative and athletic. The other obvious heir would be Lance Stephenson who physically reminds me a lot of Big O. He's also got legit point guard tendencies but primarily plays SG

[East_Stone_Ya]

i can think of Livingston, but he is not stronger though

[BoutPractice]

There's a man called Tyreke Evans who can legitly play point guard when called. Strong, tall, incredibly creative and athletic. The other obvious heir would be Lance Stephenson who physically reminds me a lot of Big O. He's also got legit point guard tendencies but primarily plays SG
Yeah, forgot Tyreke. He's a SF now but used to play lead guard.

[iznogood]

6-4 and 3/4 220
Marcus Smart on draftexpress looks to be 6-2 and 227, he lifts weights though, to be fair the Big O and Magic would probably at least weigh the same had they lifted weights, given their significant advantage in height and in Oscar's case, a similarly solid frame.
Are you suggesting Robertson and Magic didn't lift weights? As far as I know weightlifting programs were not unusual for the players in the 60s and were almost a necessity in the 80s. The difference is I think today there's more players with a lot of mass and low body fat levels. The image of how a male body should look changed (big and extremely ripped), so young players looking to go pro go crazy on the doses of PEDs and time they spend in the gym. Also being "fat" (by today standard anything above 8% bf) raises question on player's conditioning and being prone to injuries.

[NumberSix]

LeBron James

[pauk]

None, unless you can accept Lebron, considering Magic didnt touch the PG position in his 1st 4 years in the NBA as Norm Nixon was the starting PG and Magic started SF/SG..... Lebron can then at least be compared to that Magic.

[ILLsmak]

Those Pg's turned into SF's in todays game



This is a good and true post.

I really feel it's ideal, even, to have your ball handler be a SF or SG. That is one way the game has adapted in a positive way.

Why? I think it's much easier to find a pretty good PG shooter/defender than it is to find a pretty good wing shooter/defender. Then, we've got someone who can go in and finish among bigs.

Obviously, it's inefficient to slot someone like Bron at PG. But think about Magic or Oscar at the SG/SF. I believe if you swap them for wings on a team (like, say, the Heat) and then swap them for PGs (like, say... the Clips) you will find that they actually fit better as wings. You can't just iso post them either like back in the day.

You need pesky ball defenders and knock-down shooters at the 1 now. Let the wings play the passing lanes and help.

-Smak

[NumberSix]

This is a good and true post.

I really feel it's ideal, even, to have your ball handler be a SF or SG. That is one way the game has adapted in a positive way.

Why? I think it's much easier to find a pretty good PG shooter/defender than it is to find a pretty good wing shooter/defender. Then, we've got someone who can go in and finish among bigs.

Obviously, it's inefficient to slot someone like Bron at PG. But think about Magic or Oscar at the SG/SF. I believe if you swap them for wings on a team (like, say, the Heat) and then swap them for PGs (like, say... the Clips) you will find that they actually fit better as wings. You can't just iso post them either like back in the day.

You need pesky ball defenders and knock-down shooters at the 1 now. Let the wings play the passing lanes and help.

-Smak
Stop being a twinkle toes.

[ZaaaaaH]

L 2 the B J

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

Stop being a twinkle toes.

get control of your life.

-Smak

[Marchesk]

None, unless you can accept Lebron, considering Magic didnt touch the PG position in his 1st 4 years in the NBA as Norm Nixon was the starting PG and Magic started SF/SG..... Lebron can then at least be compared to that Magic.

Then we can include Grant Hill and Pippen, right?

[CavaliersFTW]

Are you suggesting Robertson and Magic didn't lift weights? As far as I know weightlifting programs were not unusual for the players in the 60s and were almost a necessity in the 80s. The difference is I think today there's more players with a lot of mass and low body fat levels. The image of how a male body should look changed (big and extremely ripped), so young players looking to go pro go crazy on the doses of PEDs and time they spend in the gym. Also being "fat" (by today standard anything above 8% bf) raises question on player's conditioning and being prone to injuries.
I know Oscar never did, he says so in a 2 hour long documentary made about him.

[NumberSix]

get control of your life.

-Smak
Your moves are just..... Something

-smak

[SHAQisGOAT]

Good point.

People were actually saying the future of the PG position were players like Magic, but then nobody quite the same and quite as good... Keep on talking about the size or athleticism though :lol

[LAZERUSS]

In the 80's Pat Riley claimed that he envisioned a team of "Magic's" in the future, with five "Magic's" on the floor at the same time.


Alas, we haven't even had ONE since.

[MavsSuperFan]

http://tshq.co/wp-content/uploads/1ablog-oscarrobertsonx-large.jpg

The Big-O, Oscar Robertson 6-4 and 3/4 of an inch tall without shoes on and 205lbs rookie - 220lbs retired playing weight

http://www.howard.edu/newsroom/images/Magic%20Johnson%20Player.jpg

Earvin Magic Johnson 6-7 and 1/2 inches tall without shoes on and 215lbs rookie - 220+lbs prime (listed 255 during '96 comeback season... but I won't count that)

How many point guards in the league today are honestly bigger and stronger than that? Even Russell Westbrook is only 6-2 and 1/4 inches tall, and he's not 220. I always read "Oscar was the first big point guard at 6-5" and "Magic was the first 6-9 point guard" as if we should treat them as pioneers for being that size at that position implicating we've got point guards their size all over the league now. If that's the case where are they? I'm not even aware of any. Shouldn't we treat them as outliers or athletic marvels instead pioneers in that sense? :confusedshrug:
magic counts as modern. Top 5 all time imo

yes modern players are usually better than guys that accumulated stats against a league this white majority teams dominated (proving how bad the league was in 1960):
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/celtics/Champs_60_61.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

magic counts as modern.

yes modern players are usually better than guys that accumulated stats against a league these white majority teams dominated:
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/celtics/Champs_60_61.jpg

Watch footage of this 6-5 white guy, who was playing college ball in the late 60's...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qv0YS1wHoQ


And honestly tell me that Ricky Rubio was anywhere near the player that he was...

[MavsSuperFan]

Watch footage of this 6-5 white guy, who was playing college ball in the late 60's...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qv0YS1wHoQ


And honestly tell me that Ricky Rubio was anywhere near the player that he was...
Bankrupt man's steve nash, prop'd up by flawed level of competition.

Flawed because of:
1. Racial Quotas
2. Zero international players/Much lower Total US population
3. Extremely low financial rewards for most players/ resulting in the stars playing against semi pro competition (because they had to work other jobs to make ends meet)

[fpliii]

Bankrupt man's steve nash, prop'd up by flawed level of competition.

Flawed because of:
1. Racial Quotas
2. Zero international players/Much lower Total US population
3. Extremely low financial rewards for most players/ resulting in the stars playing against semi pro competition (because they had to work other jobs to make ends meet)
1) Proof that they existed in the 60s/70s?
2) International players didn't become a big part of the league until the last decade and a half:

Year iTotal nTotal Total Total%
1949-50 2 221 223 1%
1950-51 1 134 135 1%
1951-52 1 115 116 1%
1952-53 1 123 124 1%
1953-54 2 108 110 2%
1954-55 1 104 105 1%
1955-56 3 89 92 3%
1956-57 1 98 99 1%
1957-58 1 98 99 1%
1958-59 0 92 92 0%
1959-60 0 99 99 0%
1960-61 0 93 93 0%
1961-62 1 112 113 1%
1962-63 1 116 117 1%
1963-64 1 110 111 1%
1964-65 1 113 114 1%
1965-66 1 110 111 1%
1966-67 1 122 123 1%
1967-68N 1 150 151 1%
1968-69N 1 167 168 1%
1969-70N 1 170 171 1%
1970-71N 1 216 217 0%
1971-72N 0 216 216 0%
1972-73N 0 215 215 0%
1973-74N 2 220 222 1%
1974-75N 2 233 235 1%
1975-76N 2 236 238 1%
1976-77 4 291 295 1%
1977-78 5 280 285 2%
1978-79 6 274 280 2%
1979-80 4 283 287 1%
1980-81 5 299 304 2%
1981-82 7 309 316 2%
1982-83 8 308 316 3%
1983-84 10 300 310 3%
1984-85 13 307 320 4%
1985-86 19 306 325 6%
1986-87 16 319 335 5%
1987-88 17 315 332 5%
1988-89 23 330 353 7%
1989-90 28 353 381 7%
1990-91 24 363 387 6%
1991-92 26 360 386 7%
1992-93 26 364 390 7%
1993-94 28 375 403 7%
1994-95 29 378 407 7%
1995-96 29 400 429 7%
1996-97 33 408 441 7%
1997-98 31 408 439 7%
1998-99 41 399 440 9%
1999-00 39 400 439 9%
2000-01 49 392 441 11%
2001-02 54 386 440 12%
2002-03 67 361 428 16%
2003-04 70 372 442 16%
2004-05 84 380 464 18%
2005-06 84 374 458 18%
2006-07 87 371 458 19%
2007-08 82 369 451 18%
2008-09 83 362 445 19%
2009-10 85 357 442 19%
2010-11 91 361 452 20%
2011-12 89 389 478 19%
2012-13 91 378 469 19%

Also, ~1.5x the population from the 60s today:

http://www.multpl.com/united-states-population/table

with fewer teams.
3) Proof that this was the case in the 60s/70s?

[iznogood]

I know Oscar never did, he says so in a 2 hour long documentary made about him.
The weights are not the only way to get big. Guys get huge by only doing bodyweight stuff. I mean, looking at Oscar's pictures, he doesn't look skinny the way Stockton or Iverson did. Just look at the size of his traps, biceps and legs. There's a point for natural athletes (no PEDs) where your body doesn't build any more muscle even if you eat a ton and lift heavy. You'll only get fatter.
If he played today, he would probably put on some more muscle, but he'd probably also play at lower body fat level, so I doubt his weight would change dramatically.

[kshutts1]

Bigger and stronger? There's a reason those guys are all time greats... size coupled with IQ and athleticism.

Name some big men that were bigger and stronger than Shaq and Wilt. See?

As for size, though, since Magic really retired in like... '92, and not '96...
Sun Yue
Livingston
Baron Davis
Penny
Kidd
Wade
Stuckey
Exum (can I count him?)
Ron Harper

... obviously none of the players mentioned are anywhere near the talent level. But there are some nearly as big, if not bigger.

[GimmeThat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKWB7V3jvyQ